Welcome to The Potential For What? Podcast, where we explore the concept of potential and its importance in today's workforce.

This week our host Jo Taylor speaks with Alex Pott, a former colleague of Jo's who is now Head of Commercial Management at Vodafone.

Alex emphasises the importance of coaching, her love of the squiggly career and well as the risks that come with fast promoting.

In today’s episode, we talk about:

✔️The power of creating an environment where it's okay to fail.

👍 How different periods of your life creating different opportunities to reach your potential.

📢Overcoming the pressures faced as a leader.

❓Why it's impossible to answer that classic question: "Where do you want to be in 10 years time?".

Welcome to the Potential For What podcast. On this podcast we explore how a range of business leaders unlock the potential in people. We'll hear how they've done it, find out what's worked, what hasn't, and why this is so important in getting and keeping great people. Most businesses focus on the here and now: that is, all about performance. But at Let's Talk Talent we like to think differently, as we fundamentally believe everyone has potential. The question is for what? So let's explore that together. I'm your host, Jo Taylor, Managing Director of Let's Talk Talent, a talent management and organisational development consultancy based in London, the UK. I have a request: if you value this show, if you enjoy these stories, or find this wisdom or inspiration useful, please subscribe to the Potential For What podcast to listen to future episodes.

Hi, everybody, and welcome to the latest episode of the Let's Talk Talent Potential For What podcast. I'm really excited today because I'm joined with an ex colleague of mine, Alex [Pott], from TalkTalk, and she now is at Vodafone, we've gone off in different directions. But she is running planning and go-to-market strategy, so I'm super excited to talk to you, we can have a little bit of a reminisce as we go on, but we'll get into the meat of potential. So welcome, Alex.

Thank you very much, Jo. Nice to see you.

Brilliant. So when we were talking about this previously, we both had an epiphany, didn't we? About how our sort of careers and potential is like a work in progress. I kind of wanted to explore that a little bit with you. Because we've all gone through different challenges, our careers have pivoted and adapted in different ways. So how does potential play a part in that, do you think?

I'm a firm believer that everyone has potential, and that potential can change depending on situation, role, both personally and professionally. And I think that point on 'it's a work in progress' means that each of those changes you go through in life creates a different outcome for your potential that might change your original potential, but lead you to different new opportunities. It gives you those options to pivot I think you touched on right at the start.

When you think about pivot does that have to be a completely different life change, or, you know, different direction? Can pivot be, in a way, coming back from maternity or it can be, you know, like I had really thinking about my career after coming out of TalkTalk and thinking: did I really want to do another corporate job?

I think those are great examples of opportunities to pivot and they might not be pivots. They might lead you straight back to- say you come off maternity leave you, like me, and you go straight back into exactly the same role you were doing when you came off. But you might have a different way of doing it, you've got a new juggle in your life, you might have had long term sickness, or you might have had a change in how you care for your parents or whatever it might be, you just come back with a changed moment. And then you can define your next part of your career based on that pivot. I think the way I think about potential, and I think it leads to that point on pivot, is ability, agility, and aspiration, you have to have a level of ability in whatever field you want to pursue, you can grow that ability, but you need to have the aspiration to grow that ability. You then have the agility, and we all talk about change all the time, and how change impacts all of us, all day, every day, even decisions are made that change the course of your next hour at work. And then you have to have aspiration. And I think when you have one of those pivots, you pull those three things together, ability, agility and aspiration, and go: "What is it I want to do next? Do I want to take a different fork in my path? Do I want to stay where I am? And how does my potential change off the back of that?"

There's quite a lot of pressure, isn't there then, of us either knowing ourselves really well and being able to do that. And some of us are working progress, I definitely feel like I'm a work in progress every day.

Me too.

But also it puts a pressure, doesn't it, on you as a leader? I mean, you're a leader of a, you know, multi-dimensional team. You know, different generations, different experiences. And then organizationally, how do you kind of solve for that? So if we look at it from a- let's take it through those three avenues. Let's start with you as a leader.

I genuinely really struggle with this as a topic and I think many of my peer group probably do too. I think we reflect on ourselves personally as leaders first and I think I am a person who goes, "I sort of know where I want to go, I sort of know how I'm going to get there, I know the checklist of things I need to do to get there and the sort of timeframe I can do them within." So I take that, and then the way I lead my team is I say, "What does your aspiration look like? And what does your checklist look like?" And actually, that works for some people, because we have really good conversations about where they want to be in 10 years time. But realistically, I suspect 90% of the people I talk to don't know where they want to be in 10 years time. And some of them don't actually know where they want to be in two years time. So I try to think about unlocking their potential in the same checklist I have, which is: okay, this is the role you do today, I can see your potential to lead a team or lead a person, and therefore you'll dip them into perhaps you have a graduate buddy first, and you bring them through the grad scheme, and that's how they develop their team leading skills. Or it might be they have a great capability in a, I don't know, even Excel. And you go, "Okay, I can see your capability in Excel, how can we use that to create a dashboard for something that the business can then use more broadly, to use that piece of talent, you've got to unlock potential for the business to see you with a different lens." So I think that point on leading potential is really hard. And my experience is 9 out of 10 people don't know where they want to go. So you have to start with the little building bricks to unlock their potential rather than going: "Where do you want to be in 10 years time?" Which is that classic interview impossible question.

It is, I was having a laugh with someone the other day, I was actually saying I think it's such an antiquated question. I always think about careers as a journey, rather than a destination. And I, people who've listened to this podcast will probably go, "Oh, she said that again." But I really truly believe that. And you don't know what life is going to throw at us. And we're all, in a way, trying to find our destination in our own authentic self. And I think sometimes we get confused with success. Potential is, I could- I have to be successful, and put a huge amount of pressure on ourselves. But actually, success is nebulous, right? As is culture, as is potential. It's quite difficult, isn't it, when you think about it like that?

And I think that's one of the things that I agree with you, that your career is a journey. We refer to it as a 'squiggly career path' often, don't we? And I'm a huge believer in that. I don't think anywhere you see any more that perfectly vertical ladder at all. And I think there are people who carve paths up mountains, and you can follow their path broadly. And you'll navigate off that path sometimes. You can sort of see a destination if you do aspire to be a certain role. But most of the people I'm sure you and I work with have hugely squiggly career paths. And I think that's another point of unlocking potential, is you can unlock one building block and that might lead to completely different career paths, because of the potential you've just unlocked.

I think that's absolutely right. I think it's really- I like the term about the building blocks. It's a bit like building Lego, isn't it?

Yeah.

Sometimes you can have- you can go into the Lego store and you can buy a kit, and you can create whatever you want to do, right? But actually, you could put the bricks in a different way, and then come out with a different building block, you know? I think that's absolutely right. But there are different challenges aren't there at different stages of your career. And there's a lot- you know, people talk about when you're coming in and, you know, my nephews who are, you know, my eldest nephew's about to do his sort of GCSEs, he's a year off from that. And he's already being asked where does he want to go and all of that. How do we manage potential in a multi-generational workforce, do you think?

I think it's phenomenally hard and every generation that comes through, as you become the leader of that generation, you don't know what they want, until they tell you. So we had this fantastic graduate join my team a year ago. Her first six to eight weeks were really rocky, because we hadn't put the right support network in place, we didn't have the right leadership, we hadn't defined a task for her to do. And she'd come from a certain university degree that was very task focused, quite scientific. And she found it very difficult coming into an ambiguous environment and going, "We'll just create a launch plan for this and here are the nine different departments you need to go and speak to." And she always wanted to define what a launch plan was. But then we recognise that, so we changed our style with her and said, "Okay, let's turn this into a task orientated piece of work and do something very different." And she picked it up and now, a year later, the ambiguity she can now deal with because she started task focused and has grown, is quite phenomenal, actually, for someone new. I think different generations have different expectations as well on how quickly they can progress. I've definitely been told this in my career. And you and I have seen it, definitely at TalkTalk, but I'm sure in other businesses too, that there's a rhetoric that younger people want to be promoted as quickly as possible. We all see it, I'm sure I'm part of that. But part of that comes with the additional debt that they've got out of university, the drive that their parents have given them to get to university in the first place in order to take on that debt, and they look at the world they live in, and the cost of living that they're facing and go, "Actually, the only way I can make this work, particularly in a big city, is if I drive as quickly as possible towards that directorship that I'm hoping I'll get by the time I'm 25." So when you step back, it's totally understandable why that culture comes through. But actually, we have to take them on those squiggly career paths, because what you don't want is someone promoted too quickly, who then is promoted into an environment where there's too much risk. And that's where we fail people. And we've both seen it. I'm sure I've seen it in my own team where we've promoted fast. Not too fast, but fast. And we try to create an environment where it's okay to fail, and it's okay to have those moments where: "Do you know what, this has gone wrong? How do we turn it round? Let's fix it for next week." But actually, if the risk is too high, then that person either comes under too much pressure to fix it, or they now have a reputation in the business for failing, because the risk was so big, it moves out of your own team into a very big environment, and they get a different reputation. So we- we as leaders have to manage that. That expectation of people coming through the ranks, I guess, and creating a culture where we can take risk with them, but it's not big enough risk, where they feel too much pressure. It's finding that balance.

I think you're absolutely right. And I think it's where the definitions get murky, don't they, between someone who's a high performer who- and someone who's got potential or high potential. And I've definitely seen people go from hero to zero in the space of six months, and you're tapping them on the shoulder and having a, you know, without prejudice conversation. And it's heartbreaking, because actually, it's got to do with performance. It's not that they haven't- that they've- their potential has lessened. It's just that you've not put the guide rails, as you talk about it.

Or the coaching. I think sometimes they- we miss the coaching. We put potential or high potential - I'm not sure I'm keen on high potential because I believe everyone has potential - that we put people into roles because of their potential, and then we hope they swim. But actually, no one's even taught them how to get in the pool. And we miss that coaching. So we've got a real- really good culture in my team, but I think in wider Vodafone, where we've got coaching and mentoring. And the mentors are people who have gone up the mountain on their own squiggly route and can create a safe environment to have a conversation with someone about how that person can follow them up a similar mountain. And a coach is very, very different. And that coach could be someone in your own team who's done the job and can literally walk you through it to make sure you do know how to get in the pool and swim. Or it could be a fully qualified proper coaching conversation. And there, those two are quite different as well. And we often miss the difference between coaching and mentoring. And I think high potential type people who are put into newly challenging roles are often perceived as, "Well off you go and we'll give you some mentoring." And actually, we miss the coaching completely, which means they don't necessarily swim, either as quickly as they could, or they don't swim at all, which is what you're referring to.

I totally agree. I think it is putting, you know, it's kind of putting the rubber ring, if we're taking your analogy to another level. I think that- that makes complete sense. And what strikes me about that example is that - and I hate the term, absolutely, 'high potential', because I, like you, believe everyone has talent, and everyone has potential hence why we're doing this podcast and having this conversation, right? But what struck me with working with people that I coached or working with businesses is that in a way, potential is unlocked through two nuances, or two axes. The exposure that you give somebody, and the experience that you give them. And I think they're different. Experience for me is about where you're giving people experience of different situations and being part of a project. Exposure is to bigger macro audiences and everything like that. I mean, does that resonate with you?

Yeah, completely. And I think it also comes with a bit of a warning sign as well. Overexposure can also be the wrong thing. And it comes back to that if you get too much experience too quickly, you can also go back to sinking to the bottom of the pool. So yeah, in my career, and certainly the way I hope I lead my team, those two things- and for me, it comes back to the ability, agility, aspiration. In exposure, you have to have all of those, because otherwise we don't want to expose you to a new audience, because you will sink to the bottom of the pool. So let's pull through your talent in your role and give you exposure. And then experience builds potential, because until you've seen a scenario, and there's no way anyone ever sees everything, but I'd like to think the CEO of a company has seen way more scenarios than me and can therefore course correct. So I would do my best in my role. But he has the ability to course correct to make sure that we get to the right endpoint, because he's seen it before or seen something similar. So you put those two things together. And I think that's when you build even greater potential, and you start to see talent- I believe you start see talent and potential come together, because that's the point at which people are then promoted into a new role, take a new squiggle on their path; putting exposure and experience together.

So let me ask you this question. Where have those sweet spots aligned for you in terms of your career?

That is a great question. I believe in luck. I believe in working for luck. There was a moment at TalkTalk, when I'd done some work on a couple of business purchases that were integrated into the company and the CEO, Dido Harding, at the time, came up to my desk, and went, "I don't know what I need, but I need someone to help." And at the time, she had a huge- well, she was the CEO of TalkTalk, she was also a non-exec at the Bank of England, her husband was an MP and she had two children under 10, along with all of her own personal social commitments, that- you have to have some fun in your life. So I said, "Okay, well, let's do it." And I think that was one of those moments where I'd gained exposure through the role I'd been doing, to her and the rest of the leadership team. And I'd gained a level of experience through building a bit of a CV, a building block. So I was a chartered accountant, so she could rely on me to read a scorecard. I'd been in the finance team and taken some knocks, because I'd got some things wrong, definitely, building a model incorrectly, or presenting something in a way that wasn't right for a commercial director to buy into. And I think because I'd taken the knocks in the way I took them, actually, she could say, "I can see how the experience and exposure come together and I can trust you." So there is a bit of luck, that I'd managed to get those two things and pull them together, but you definitely build your own luck. So that was probably the first one. And then the second one... I'm a firm believer in personal relationships. And I think personal relationships get you quite a long way in a career, actually. And there was a chap called Jeff Dodds, who I adored working with at TalkTalk, who then moved to Virgin Media. And when he was at Virgin, I got a phone call from Virgin saying, "We'd love you to come for an interview." And I thought the opportunity to work with someone I had so thoroughly enjoyed working with previously felt like the right time to move. And I think we often hope that the next job, the grass is greener, and it's probably not, it's a different shade of green or brown. But we- and we take those leaps. But I've often taken leaps to follow people who I just have this huge respect for and enjoy working with. So that exposure point, for me, building those personal networks through exposure is so important, and I am not sure we mentor our early generations to realise how important their networks are. I often say, to certainly the people in my team, never forget how small our industry is. So if you want to move around telecommunications, everybody knows everybody else. So don't burn a bridge. When you do go, go for the right reasons. Tell us before you're going and let us help you. Because if you're going to another business, we might know that the grass is a bit greener and we might know there isn't any grass at all and it's gravel. And we'll talk to you about the gravel, so that we're setting your expectation for you to make a choice. And I think those are probably the two moments I've thought; bit of luck, personal network, but it's all from exposure and experience.

Love that. And thank you for sharing and being so open. So when you've been planning your career - I've got two final questions for you - you can plan your career, are there any books, podcasts, things that you've been exposed to, that you would like to share with our audience?

I have just pulled out - for the audience listening along, Jo you can't see me on camera - I've just pulled out from my desk the book that I firmly believe is one of the best things I've ever read about how to grow, how to be authentic. It's called 'Lean In' by Sheryl Sandberg. And in the back of it - I've read it a number of times - and in the back of it, I have my notes. And my notes change every time I read it, because when you read a book like this, you take different things from it depending on the squiggle in your career, depending on the situation that you are in at the time you read it. And although this book is geared at women, it even says on the front page, "Womem, Work and the Will to Lead", I've actually recommended it to some male colleagues as well, because some of the things she talks about, like when you walk into a boardroom, if you pull up a chair to the corner of the table - square table or rectangular table - you are giving an instant impression that you don't belong at the board table, you are taking notes on the corner. And I think those are little tiny things that can really change how you are perceived by the people around you. So when we talk about potential, potential is seen by others, you don't talk about your own potential. So if you turn up and sit on the corner as a note taker, rather than sitting at the edge of the board table, people perceive you as a note taker, and they're not thinking about your potential to sit at the board table. So yeah, it's my favourite read, and I keep a copy in my desk at all times.

Love it. Thank you for sharing that. And finally, if our listeners want to get in touch with you, they want to reach out and learn more about you or kind of have a chat about their squiggly career, how can they get in contact with you, Alex?

I always say I have the easiest name to remember. It's Alex Pott. It's eight letters. And you can find me on LinkedIn.

Brilliant. Well look, I've really enjoyed chatting to you. Thank you so much for being so open and sharing your squiggly career and giving us real clarity around the pillars that sit within potential. And good luck in driving your career. Thank you so much.

Thanks, Jo.

Thanks for listening to the Potential For What podcast. If you're hearing this message, you've listened to our new episode all the way to the end, and for that I thank you from the bottom of my heart. We hope you enjoyed this episode, and if you did, please leave us a review on Apple podcasts and Spotify. Please share this episode with others who may be interested in this topic. As always, you can head over to letstalktalent.co.uk/podcasts to check out all the links and resources in the show notes and to sign up to our email list.