In this episode, Trisha interviews Lucy Butters, a Cultural Intelligence Master Facilitator. Lucy has been an academic and worked with the British Council in many locations with people from over 80 countries. Through training, coaching and speaking she has helped thousands of people develop their  Cultural Intelligence (CQ) enabling leaders, teams and organisations to be more successful working across cultures.

Lucy and Trisha discuss the tension between sharing the knowledge in a training session and processing the awareness, the feelings that people carry about culture. Lucy speaks about using the body and trusting the intuition of facilitation. They also reference the tension of time awareness - especially in some cultures - and the need to be available for questions and discussions. Lucy describes how cultural trainers need to check their own CQ and be aware of all four capabilities while facilitating.

Lucy is working on a book to share with cultural trainers to increase knowledge and skills. She is also collaborating on a project using Lego Serious Play to create change and build CQ

To connect with Lucy, reach out via LinkedIn here where Lucy regularly posts about her work and learnings.

Hi there everyone, I'm Trisha Carter, an organizational psychologist and an explorer of cultural intelligence. I'm on a quest to discover what enables us to see things from different perspectives, especially different cultural perspectives, and why sometimes it's easier than others to experience those moments of awareness, the shifts in thinking.

As those of you who have listened to some of the earlier episodes will be aware, cultural intelligence, CQ, the capability to be effective in situations of diversity, is made up of four areas, motivational, knowledge, metacognitive. and behavioural, and it can help us as we deal with diversity or move across cultures.

And more recently, through training, coaching, and speaking, she has helped thousands of people develop their cultural intelligence, enabling leaders, Teams and organizations to be more successful working across cultures, both local and international. And while a part of the CQ Fellows, she's been writing a book and continuing a busy training and speaking schedule.

So I'm really pleased that we were able to find time across time zones for this discussion. Welcome, Lucy.

[00:02:22] Trisha: One day it will happen. Hey, Lucy, was there anything that I missed telling our listeners that you'd like them to know about you?

[00:02:38] Trisha: Okay, well, let's go to those questions. First of all, what is a culture, other than the culture you grew up in, that you have learned to love and appreciate?

[00:02:54] Trisha: Oh, did you? Because you had to choose?

And so I was thinking, and the one I'm going to share is when I was with the British Council between 2007 and 10, I was working on a program across nine Arab countries. We were working on a leadership development program with people from Scotland and there for people who wanted to impact positively on their communities.

[00:03:43] Lucy: The first pilot we did, it was Egypt, Jordan and Scotland. And what struck me was two things and they were both related to the display of emotion. So one of the training sessions, we had about 150 people in a room in a hotel, In Amman, the capital of Jordan, and every so often groups of Egyptians or Jordanians, they would get up and they would start singing and dancing.

And you know, it's just like they would just express themselves in that very happy, joyful way. Never have I been training in the UK when people have spontaneously started to sing and dance, you know, it just does not. happen. And the other side of that was when we were in one of the initial development meetings and we had trainers working together from the UK, from Jordan and Egypt.

One of the women from Egypt mentioned about her, started to speak about her son who had died. And you could see British trainers all sat back, totally horrified that this was being shared during a work meeting. All the Arabs leaned forward and, you know, gave that kind of space for someone to share this deeply grieving story and experience.

And reflecting back, it really made me think, you know, that in the UK generally, We're not very comfortable with either tip of the emotional spectrum, you know, that lots of joy, lots of grief. And when we express them, it's typically done in very codified situations, often with quite a lot of alcohol, Trisha, you know, that kind of thing, that then makes it okay.

So it was seeing that. And one of the people who'd been out from the UK was a policeman. And he'd said, you know, when we were doing evaluation interviews, that when he'd seen people that had that kind of joy, and he couldn't understand why, it had been assumed that they were maybe whipping themselves up, you know, kind of getting ready.

[00:05:58] Lucy: And then of course you would plan on that event, that, so your assumptions impact your planning, impact then what manifests, what happens because of that. So I, I loved working with that part of the world. I love that relationship first and interest and that whole spectrum of being human that was okay at any time of the day kind of thing. I really, I appreciated that very much. And also coming away, you know, we were in these countries and, you know, Syria was one of our countries it was okay to, to be in. And I look back and, you know, it just really highlights to me how fragile peace is, how it's one of our great privileges.

It's really an area that's really got under my skin. I loved working with that world for so many reasons.

And for other people. But is there another time that in looking at the questions and thinking about things that you had thought about sharing, when you did experience a shift and suddenly became aware of a new perspective?

So again, I think there's hundreds of things that I could pull out here. So I'm going to share, if it's okay, I'm going to share two. And one is from when I was still at school. And one is now, and I'm in my fifties now, you know, people can't see that they're hearing my voice, but you know, there's been quite a few decades.

Um, so when I was at school, when I was a teenager, my mum, went to New Zealand for two or three months and she was traveling from the East, from the West to the East of, sorry, I said New Zealand. She did do that as well but the story I'm going to tell is one where she went to Kenya. So she went and travelled from the, um, West to the East of Kenya over a couple of months, two or three months.

And the 80s was a time of live aid. It was a time when we were getting talked about famines that were happening in different, um, African countries. And when my mom came back from Kenya, I remember one of her stories was about how one of the churches there, their big campaign was around, um, getting monies to send to Edinburgh to support the heroin impact, the impact of heroin, heroin on the city.

And it was totally mind boggling to me where we talked all the time about what we did going out. You never heard about anything coming back

and it was a real kind of, oh, there's so many different stories. stories and perspectives and things to hear there. And I, I always remember that, that, you know, you know, nothing until kind of heard, or, you know, very little, and that we always create stories about our narrative and us.

But we don't get to hear so much from other's perspective. So that's very much stayed with me, that need to just create the space to hear. You know, it's kind of what's happening in different spaces.

[00:09:48] Lucy: Absolutely. And about what you're saying about who helps who, you know, as a middle, class person in the UK, you know, when I had my triplet sons, I have triplet sons and I was diagnosed with multiple sclerosis when I was pregnant, you know, it wasn't, and after they were born I had trouble feeling my hands and feet and things, you know, it was, it was difficult and I got support from a charity and I found that really hard because it was that bit about who receives help, who gives help, you know, that, it is fantastic.

But that bit that you just said there about, you know, who gives, who receives, and it has to be mutual. We operate as a society and I think more and more that's really, we need each other.

We need each other. We need to respond to people where they are.

[00:10:36] Lucy: And you can be lots of different things at different points in your life, you know, that kind of thing.

[00:10:46] Lucy: Yeah, which maybe comes, and it was more from that personal looking at the cultural intelligence. So as you know, and you said very kindly in your introduction, I'm writing a book taking on that mammoth undertaking, and I've been writing it this year.

And at the same time, I've, um, my multiple sclerosis has been changing. So it's, it's. Got a different presence. It's like constant in terms of discomfort. There's a different pattern in terms of new medications and people who come to the door to deliver and take stuff. You know, even a different visual, you know, I've got, um, National Health Service waste bins in my house for my sharps. You know that kind of thing.

So it's created this different presence and I've realized when I write for the most part, I pay no attention, but I've realized. When I write, it's like my brain disappears. It's like, and clearly that's my processing time. And so I've had to do that. I clearly need that processing time. There's a lot going on

[00:11:55] Lucy: whilst not letting it become an excuse.

So it's what else am I? And so it's that bit about, you know, I'll be so disappointed in myself. If I don't complete this book, you know, that kind of thing. And I think that's really important when I think about working with teams. Often you'll hear people talk about their culture and it's like, well, that's made me like this.

And it becomes one way. And I think Dr. David Livermore talks about psychological safety. It's not about just that one thing. I'm this, so you need to respond to me like this. All the time. I think that question and what else else and what is the goal? So what else? So how do we give grace to elements of ourselves and what else, you know, and I think that's been very much in my thinking at the moment as I kind of go through this.

process.

You've been working in this area for a number of years. So people come to you in these group settings and I'm imagining sometimes they come enthusiastically and sometimes they probably come a bit less. So, you know, maybe companies send people. What do you think you do? that helps people in these facilitation situations to see things differently.

And so I think as a facilitator, you're always trying to create that space where people can Reflect and share their own stories, because that's often the space where people think about things differently. I always think, think out loud with other people. So that bit about sharing, being vulnerable to share my own stories, I think that's really important as a facilitator, because again it creates that space.

Where then others can share too, and questions, you know, you're, you're a psychologist, you know, the importance of questions that help people just to see things in a different perspective, or maybe that they've not thought about what they're emphasizing before. So yeah, I think those bits about enabling people feel something different.

And there's this tension that you hold as a facilitator, like, have I covered that? Can I just let them talk right now? Do I have to jump back to that? And as a facilitator, you know, often, well, I am anyway, holding these things in my head and in my heart. And, um, at times that's part of the tension that sits inside me as I'm trying to facilitate knowing when I need to shut up and let other people talk.

And when maybe I need to add in something to just clarify a little bit of knowledge that maybe they need. Yeah.

And so there's, but one thing I would think is even your design. right at the front? You know, what kind of program is it? So the ideal ones for me are where maybe there's two or three different training sessions. There's peer group or individual coaching all as part. And then there's something again, that's maybe six months or a year down the line, you know, those are the ideal kind of programs because you can start with reflection at the start of each one.

So people are going away to do something.

[00:16:37] Lucy: In-between each, it's not always what we get gifted, I'm quite sure, in terms of what we can do. And so there's that bit about when you talk about the tension, it's, it's that bit about, um, knowing what you can do sometimes quite quickly. And if the session is quite short, I also give myself that grace of saying, this is about awareness.

You know,

it's, it's, things do not shift in a few hours for people. With some people it might, people take what they need and people are in different spaces when they arrive, as you said. Some people are enthusiastic, some absolutely not. And so it's for each person on their own area. And I think as a facilitator to know that what you're doing sometimes it's just about giving people that awareness and, and being clear and saying that at the start as well, you know, this is what we're trying to do to get you to be more aware of possibilities here.

And then you can be reflecting on that at the end again.

[00:17:55] Lucy: I think a mix

of both. So I will sometimes use things like the body. I'm a big fan of in person, getting people to move, for example. So then they're thinking on their feet and it creates a visual, you know, exercises like that.

You can both feel and see and think about it kind of engages us at multiple levels, if you like. So I'm a big fan of that. If I've got space to think about how can we use the body to feel things or look at

things

differently. So that's sometimes quite specific because I've planned an event, you know, into, into the session.

But other times it can be, you know, people start sharing something and it's about the questions that you then ask or the questions that maybe you invite from others or the reflection. You know, sometimes I'll do a round on just. reflection that you maybe haven't planned in just because you can feel that there's been something in the room. So it's a mix of both, I would say.

And also sometimes obviously I'm taking on to do something very specific, you know, this is our challenge, this is what we want the focus to be on. And with that, I would say you absolutely want that, but you also want sometimes as you The brain works by taking quite a divergent.

So you've also got to go with people and bring them back, you know, kind of,

And be aware of sort of the arc that you're and where you are on it at the moment. And, and then the other tension, which is another whole topic probably is managing the time. Um, but. Yeah. And taking into account all the cultural differences that you might have in the room where, where people are seeing those things through different eyes as well.

[00:19:53] Trisha: Yes, indeed.

So, so I try and say things like, you know, I try and get through the content by a time, it's a mixed group, but always make myself available to be, to answer questions of whatever with people who are like, Oh, I still want to ask, or, you know, that, that kind of thing,, so I try and create an either or scenario when I'm in those.

Scenarios.

That's lovely. For those who are new to facilitating in this way, perhaps new CQ facilitators or interculturalists, what advice would you give to them?

How confident are you with this group? What will help you feel more confident? So really think about that drive. piece. What do you know about them? What do you not know? You know, what questions would it be useful to ask? You know, so you choose that bit and then what are your assumptions? What are your assumptions about their expectations or how they'll see you?

What identity are you taking into this space? So, you know, really kind of think through that and then think through what are your strategies for maybe responding to that? If you need to or not, you know, different things, hold plans lightly. And then that bit about the doing, the bit I recommend is afterwards, really thinking through what have you done well?

What would you do differently if you're doing it again? All the time we're building, you don't get to a point where you're just excellent in every single group. You're always going to have groups, but it doesn't just doesn't resonate with for whatever reason or reasons and you know it's kind of so I think it's just about always thinking through you are doing something well and what would you do differently you know and that might be in terms of how you responded to a specific question or how you just felt tense because you were maybe thinking about the content but I think At the start, people often are focused on the content that this is a subject matter where we really need to get people to feel and engage.

So, you know, be prepared to let that go in some places a little.

It's, it's, yeah, it's much more like you say, you're stepping into the feeling of it and, and having that whole sense of it being who you are.

What does that look like? And know that what's a challenging session for you. You know, these different things.

Just some of the good news stories, if you like.

And it was, um, that insight of, although we were, I was with a group that work internationally, so that was our focus. That was not away from it. She was like, we're working in the groups and so I'm now going to do another couple of days with that same university looking at something slightly different because for her she really took away that bit about culture being, we're creating them all the time in the groups that we are in, you know, so it's, it's not always about the Going out there.

It's also about that we are in here. So what culture are we trying to create? And so that, that just totally lifts me up when people come back and see that because they can see that it's something they need to use every day.

[00:24:53] Lucy: Oh, well, that was thanks to someone a few years ago saying you would really like Afshan Baksh. This is a Lego serious play facilitator.

[00:25:03] Lucy: And they were absolutely right. So over a few, she introduced, so I don't do the Lego serious play, I am partnered with Afshan who, that's her specialism, but we're both in the field of inclusion and international, and we thought we could fuse these.

So we had a pilot last year in December. We're running it again. We've still got a couple of spaces. Anyone who's about in London 14th of June, I'll maybe get you to share the link. You wouldn't mind, Trisha?

[00:25:38] Lucy: It's, we've got a real mix, we've got people from defence, from education, independent consultants, a lovely mix of people in the room and what the Lego enables people to do, it's fantastic.

It's, you're, you're thinking with your hands. You know, it's a, a, a building and it creates new insights and new actions that you can take away. So we fuse the bits of cultural intelligence and then so how's that impact on your inclusion challenge? And Afshan takes people beautifully through that building.

Even if you're thinking, I'm not very creative, you don't need to be.

You know, you really don't need to be. It's a fantastic way of thinking about things differently and just coming into a different space.. Yeah, so

I've been working with Afshan, and it's been great because it's been a real collaboration.

You know, we've created this name Culture Lab, which is a fusion. The lab is Lucy and Afshan Butters and Baksh.

[00:26:44] Lucy: We've really come together and it's been just, uh, both a joyful and a purposeful and all good things working

together, really.

[00:27:05] Lucy: Oh, so I'm over halfway through my writing, I've been writing this year, so I've, I want you to imagine that you could draw from over a hundred years of experience of people delivering cultural intelligence, training, facilitation, that's what the purpose of this book is. Does that sound

good to you, Trisha?

[00:27:29] Lucy: Wonderful. I'm afraid we don't have now, so I've interviewed 11 people who are around the world, Australia, Singapore, Rwanda, Europe, Americas, you know, so we've got a really great diversity of trainers working in different contexts. And I did all the interviews last year, and they've been such wonderful people.

I get to go back and kind of query and maybe ask something else that's come out or something. So at the moment, I'm pulling it all together. I would hope to have a first draft in the next few months. And then I understand it's got, I'll need to go through some fairly rigorous editing processes. So I suspect from what I've been talking with people that there's Time we're really looking into next year, probably, but yeah,

Yeah,

[00:28:29] Trisha: Fantastic. Well, thank you so much. We've covered a great deal of ground in a short period of time, and it's been encouraging and uplifting. So I hope it has been also for you listeners and, I recommend that you connect with Lucy. What's the best way for them to do that, Lucy?

Do you prefer LinkedIn or anywhere else?

would say

reach out on LinkedIn as a starter. You're easy to find me, Lucy Butters.

[00:29:28] Lucy: Thank you, Trisha. It's always a pleasure. Talking with you. It's been great.