Understanding Sophism: Background, Impact, and Critiques

In this episode, the discussion focuses on the Sophists, their role in ancient philosophy, and their impact on subsequent thought. We delve into their characteristics, methodologies, and goals, exploring how they served as both a culmination and a reaction to earlier philosophical ideas. Daniel summarizes their teaching under the three headings of: skepticism, relativism, and pragmatism. The conversation ultimately highlights the critical role the Sophists played in setting the stage for the great philosophers Plato and Aristotle. Through an analysis of Sophist principles and the response by Socrates and Plato, the episode offers a comprehensive understanding of this significant yet often misunderstood philosophical movement.

00:00 Introduction to the Topic

00:36 The Role and Influence of Sophists

02:06 Sophists' Business Model and Teaching Methods

04:58 Protagoras and His Teachings

06:53 Skepticism in Sophist Philosophy

11:23 Relativism Explained

18:24 Pragmatism in Sophist Thought

18:49 The Concept of Enlightened Self-Interest

20:00 Pragmatism and Societal Values

21:50 Cultural Practices and Moral Relativism

23:34 Custom vs. Nature: The Debate

25:26 Sophocles' Antigone: A Case Study

27:59 Socrates and Plato: Challenging Relativism

33:04 The Legacy of the Sophists

36:01 Conclusion and Next Steps

. So today we're going to be

talking about this office or some

2

people will pronounce it selfish.

3

I've heard it either way.

4

I think either way is acceptable,

5

okay.

6

Okay.

7

But is it a non Macron or an omega?

8

That is a non McRob.

9

So at Sophos.

10

Well, probably, but once

you transliterate something.

11

In English.

12

Yeah.

13

Okay.

14

That's it So far.

15

Yeah, it does.

16

But I usually go with that,

just, you know, usually pick

17

up what your own teachers.

18

how they used it.

19

And sometimes if they're educated

in United States versus say in

20

Europe, that makes a difference.

21

So some of my teachers, yeah.

22

Pronounce things different

ways than each other.

23

. Interchangeable.

24

We'll we'll be on the same page here.

25

Got you.

26

So why are we talking about who are

they and why don't you to situate us

27

a little bit in this conversation?

28

So they are in many ways, a culmination

of the philosophies that have gone before.

29

And also reaction to those philosophies.

30

And then in Doing So they set.

31

The stage for The great philosophers.

32

Plato and Aristotle.

33

So they have.

34

a Transitional role, but it's

very crucial because without them.

35

I.

36

think you.

37

Could argue.

38

That Plato and Aristotle would not

have developed their great systems.

39

So they're kind of reacting against.

40

Yes.

41

Oh, yes.

42

Definitely.

43

Cool.

44

Cool.

45

And so.

46

are they.

47

One particular.

48

School.

49

Um, no, No, not exactly.

50

They share some common

characteristics, but for them.

51

It's not so much about particular

dogmas, but just general trends

52

that United them together and

their methodology and their goals.

53

Okay.

54

So are these guys located

interspersed throughout Greece?

55

And they're just kind of exactly.

56

So they would be traveling

teachers basically.

57

Oh, And they'd go from city to city.

58

Uh, Many of them were headquarters

in Athens because it was large

59

enough to support many of them.

60

But their goal was to go

around and teach people.

61

And Sophos of course comes from

Sophia, the Greek word for wisdom.

62

So originally just met a wise person or

a teacher who would go around to teach.

63

It later because of Plato and

Aristotle became a term of a, I.

64

I.

65

don't know.

66

It's a term of abuse, but

it's not usually a compliment.

67

Maybe pejorative a little bit.

68

Yeah, it's a little bit pejorative.

69

these guys.

70

are they funded by anybody are.

71

they.

72

Funded by the government or did

he go charge for their education?

73

Yeah.

74

So this is one of the great differences

between them and the philosophers who came

75

before is that their business model is

I'm going to charge you for this wisdom.

76

I'm teaching you.

77

I'm not saying none of the others did that

before, but this is relatively new as a.

78

way of doing philosophy.

79

So were the other guys who

came before, of by vocational.

80

Yeah.

81

A lot of them weren't okay.

82

Okay.

83

Yeah.

84

So, this is interesting, a new

kind of itinerant philosopher.

85

Traveler.

86

Go and teach somewhere for a few

weeks or months or years or something.

87

Go travel somewhere else and right.

88

Interesting.

89

methodology there and.

90

make sense that they're ideas

we get spread around because

91

they were spread around.

92

Yeah, they certainly were.

93

And there are in many ways, a culmination

and a little bit of reaction to the

94

previous philosophers, The other part of

cultural context or historical context.

95

That we should have in mind here.

96

Is that the centuries they're

writing in are really The

97

high point of Greek democracy.

98

sorry the third teaching in.

99

They didn't do much writing.

100

Some of them did.

101

you're looking at the fifth

and fourth century BC.

102

So 500 to 300 BC.

103

During this time period, You have Greece

moving from an aristocracy to a democracy.

104

When that happens, you have a

need for a new kind of education.

105

For many people.

106

Instead of everything being

controlled by the elite families.

107

People who are up and coming and

have the right skills, can gain

108

power political and otherwise.

109

And so the Sophos teachers were all about

educated people towards those goals.

110

Hmm.

111

So in the notes here, you say

that there's more spin doctors and

112

not so much academic researchers.

113

Yeah.

114

I heard someone say that.

115

we would call them that today,

there were more spin doctors than

116

dispassionate academic researchers.

117

what does spin doctor?

118

what does that mean?

119

Exactly?

120

Well, it means that their goal was

not necessarily to find truth, but to

121

use truth towards other ends or use.

122

Okay.

123

Reasoning.

124

Wisdom the skills that they would teach.

125

And so that's, really the big shift here.

126

So they had an agenda.

127

Yes, but it was an agenda of helping each

individual student become more successful.

128

Um, okay, so it wasn't some

grand metaphysical agenda.

129

It was, Hey, we had skills that

will really help you advance

130

here in democratic Greece.

131

And for small fee.

132

Well, that's what it wasn't

they charge pretty high fees.

133

Uh, we will teach them to you.

134

So it's like modern, self-help

gurus who have no academic.

135

they just feel like they've

found something that works.

136

And so you see their ads

on YouTube all the time.

137

Right?

138

That's actually not a bad analogy.

139

Yeah.

140

Although many of the sofas we're some

pretty creative and original thinkers.

141

They had some credentials, but, okay.

142

but yeah, the whole point.

143

being self-improvement

self-help, how they defined it.

144

Gotcha.

145

So, why don't you tell us about

some of these guys or at least you

146

have the most influential one here.

147

I want you tell us a little

bit about protagonists.

148

Right.

149

And remember how we talked

about pronunciation earlier?

150

Yes.

151

I get it wrong.

152

No, no, I that's.

153

How I've heard it pronounced.

154

That's how I'm going to use it.

155

But I have heard at least two different

people call her proto Garris, huh?

156

I'm sticking with Protagoras..

157

it's P R O T a G O R a S.

158

Okay.

159

And I pronounce it Protagoras.

160

he's a born about four eighty one.

161

BC at some point he moves to Athens.

162

you'll see him pop up again and

again, in Plato's dialogues.

163

As someone who is more than

just trying to make a buck.

164

So he offered.

165

More than just getting ahead.

166

He promised to teach you in.

167

Virtue or excellence.

168

the Greek word, there is a red day.

169

I've also heard it pronounced.

170

Everett.

171

It's a R E T E is how you

put that in English letters.

172

And that could translate

either virtue or excellence.

173

Previously, if you were thinking of

those terms, you were thinking of

174

some sort of great moral excellence.

175

And here it's not so much that it's

more about becoming the best person

176

that you can be becoming noble in

your soul But again Attached to

177

that is this purpose of rising.

178

In the Athenian democracy.

179

To become a great.

180

person.

181

Gotcha.

182

So.

183

Is he talking about The four

Cardinal virtues Well, those

184

won't be delineated until later.

185

Okay.

186

Okay.

187

So, no, it's more just about,

self-improvement Of your

188

moral and intellectual self.

189

but we're going to have to

qualify, especially that moral bar.

190

Okay.

191

Yeah.

192

and I'm going to kind

of use him as a model.

193

I'm going to sum up their views and

their influence under three terms.

194

Skepticism relativism and pragmatism.

195

Okay.

196

I think that's not a bad

template to talk about them.

197

Cool.

198

Let's take them one at a time.

199

What skepticism.

200

we've talked about skepticism in the past.

201

Very often today it means someone who

is skeptical of religious claims, but

202

and philosophy, usually meets someone

who is skeptical about knowledge

203

claims or truth claims the idea that

you can actually no objective truth.

204

And that's what we mean in here.

205

So these people are claiming.

206

Protagoras among them.

207

That you can.

208

I know absolute objective truth.

209

Again, if we trace this, this

is a combination of many of the

210

themes that we've already seen.

211

All the different pre-Socratic

philosophers came to

212

different conclusions.

213

So it's natural to look at that

and say, well, all these smart

214

guys can come to the same place on.

215

these ultimate issues,

then maybe there isn't.

216

ultimate answer on these things.

217

And very often.

218

As we've also talked about.

219

If you really dig deep into the

philosophy of the pre Socratics,

220

they seem to undermine their truth

claims by the way that their work.

221

For example, daily said

everything is water.

222

Yeah.

223

Does that mean?

224

My mind is water.

225

Does that mean my thoughts are water.

226

The movements of my

mind or like the tides.

227

Why then, should I have any belief

that my thoughts are correct?

228

Including the thought

that all things are water.

229

Yeah.

230

And again, We applied

that again and again.

231

even when the pre-Socratic would

give a more rational answer, like all

232

things are mind are ruled by mind.

233

There's not an indication

where the mine came from.

234

You know, what does it mean?

235

How do we know what works.

236

that's what I say.

237

They're both a reaction to the

truth claims, but they're also a

238

culmination of the problems that

the pre-Socratic philosophers had

239

in developing in a piston biology.

240

A theory of knowledge.

241

so skepticism is just.

242

I'm trying to understand it.

243

So it's a, it's a more technical term.

244

Then how we would probably

use it in English and.

245

outside of philosophical circles, right?

246

Yes.

247

You said they're skeptical

of all such truth claims?

248

Yes.

249

Okay.

250

They're skeptical that you can have

ultimate knowledge or objective knowledge.

251

So you mean it's.

252

The culmination in the sense that

it's kind of the logical end of

253

that philosophers that have come

before they're they're the guys.

254

Who are pointing out.

255

That there's some.

256

Circular reasoning here.

257

I pissed him a logically speaking.

258

Yeah.

259

And what's interesting.

260

I don't know.

261

I haven't seen where they

have actually pointed out.

262

The circular reasoning or the

self-defeating nature Other

263

pre-Socratic philosophers.

264

from what I seen appear on.

265

The scene and start teaching.

266

There is no absolute truth.

267

So I'm kind of reading

into that, to be honest.

268

Okay.

269

Okay.

270

But It is a reaction against some of these

folks who have made ultimate truth claims.

271

And they've come Onto the

scene and they've totally.

272

started injecting skepticism into

The validity of those truth claims.

273

Right?

274

Okay.

275

Someone said you could sum up the,

spirit of the age in postmodern

276

America as a distrust of narratives.

277

So just trust of any story or

truth claim the seeks to give

278

an answer to the big picture.

279

And obviously that's not

a term they would use.

280

But they're certainly in

line with that spirit.

281

Hmm.

282

Wow.

283

And really, I think they're

one of the first, if not the

284

first group of philosophers.

285

To actually define themselves

as skeptics in that way.

286

You see glimpses of it before.

287

But the skepticism and the relativism.

288

Very much connected that we'll

talk about here in a second.

289

They seem to be the first ones to

really define and promote that as

290

a central part of their belief.

291

Gotcha.

292

Well, Are you got any other comments on

skepticism before we move to relativism?

293

Let me give a quote by a

protagonists concerning the gods.

294

Okay.

295

I believe in the gods.

296

And again, he's thinking of the

Olympian gods and the others.

297

this is just a typical expression.

298

I have that skeptical attitude.

299

Quote concerning the gods.

300

I am not in a position to know either

that they are or that they are not.

301

Or what they're like in appearance.

302

For there are many things

that are preventing knowledge.

303

The excursion of the matter

and the brevity of human life.

304

So, because the matter is obscure,

people are on different sides of it.

305

Because.

306

We have a finite time to

think of through this.

307

He says, I can't know or not know.

308

So he's not an atheist.

309

He's an agnostic on this sense.

310

Um, So, I mean, that sounds like a

reasonable and humble perspective.

311

Well, it is, but again, you're going

to apply this to all truth claims.

312

Okay.

313

So they would say it's not just on this.

314

We have to be agnostic, but

on any ultimate truth claim.

315

Okay.

316

So the second.

317

Part of this then is relativism.

318

We were just talking about.

319

The temperature in the room.

320

Yeah.

321

Casey went out yesterday.

322

Well, it didn't go out, but couldn't.

323

Change.

324

It with a thermostat.

325

And so I had to call the

AC guy and he got it fixed.

326

So, is it warmer, cold.

327

In here now.

328

It's much cooler than it was.

329

Okay.

330

Do you ever had a time where

like you and Abby, your wife.

331

Are disagreeing on whether the house is.

332

Too cool or too warm.

333

You know, We haven't too much,

but I do know couples that have.

334

I tell you, we both liked

to run it pretty cold.

335

Yeah.

336

My wife, especially lots to run it.

337

Uh, Like freezing temperature

Yeah in the evening.

338

She likes to sleep with that

thing, cranked as low as possible.

339

Really.

340

Yeah, That's an exaggeration, right?

341

Well, I'd probably say I drink.

342

But I do like 68, 66.

343

Oh, okay.

344

Yeah.

345

We're at like 68, 69, I think.

346

Yeah.

347

66 is getting pretty cold.

348

It's always by the way I know it's

totally tangental, but it's crazy to me.

349

How much, one degree difference.

350

makes.

351

it's on a thermostat, but anyway,

anyway, So it could be in the same

352

room, my wife and I, especially

in the evening and children.

353

well, it's too warm in here.

354

Can we turn down the AC.

355

And I'm thinking.

356

Um, pretty cold in here already, you know?

357

Yeah.

358

So I say that because that's an

example that they would use back then.

359

they talked about Uh, warmer.

360

cool air.

361

One person might say.

362

The breeze is cool Another warm.

363

And in this case, They are each making

a claim about their own perception.

364

And the truth of that claim

is only relative to them.

365

Hm.

366

So, if I am feeling that the room

is cold and I say this room is cold.

367

Relative to me, that statement is true.

368

But Amy could be in the same room and

she say, now, This room is warm, and

369

if she feels it's warm, then relative.

370

To her.

371

That statement is true for her.

372

So is it.

373

Warm or cold in the room.

374

And the point is in that particular case.

375

It's relative to the person

who's making the judgment.

376

Hmm.

377

No, we get that.

378

That makes sense, right?

379

Yeah, for sure.

380

But they're going to

extend this to everything.

381

every claim made every truth claim maimed.

382

Is relative only to the person who makes

it, there is not an object of standard.

383

Each person makes their own claim.

384

And what's true for you is

not necessarily true for me.

385

Gotcha.

386

So going back to the example of.

387

the gods, he said.

388

You know, I'm not in a position to know.

389

applying this.

390

Relativistic.

391

Perspective to that.

392

Would he say, you know, if you I think

that the gods exist and they do, or if I

393

think that they don't, then they don't.

394

I mean, how does that I would think so.

395

I didn't see him address that

Exact scenario, but it would

396

seem to be consistent with that.

397

But see, that's so interesting to me it's

like, well, they either do, or they don't.

398

You know, so you're not a Sophos.

399

I can see how this kind of

flows naturally from skepticism.

400

Yeah.

401

Or maybe skepticism flows

naturally from this.

402

Exactly Is that clear?

403

right.

404

they're sisters, if not twins.

405

They go together.

406

So if I can't have any knowledge then.

407

my, my truth claims are not

transcended claims about an object

408

of knowledge, but simply how I

experience or how I think about things.

409

And that's relativism.

410

Gotcha.

411

Protagoras said it most succinctly

man is the measure of all things.

412

Now he did not mean that we are.

413

this glorious creation and the

highlight of all the animal kingdom.

414

He meant that each person.

415

Each man, because again, they're

usually not going to talk about women.

416

Each man.

417

Measures everything.

418

And he's the only standard of

measurement of whether it's true or not.

419

and he applies this.

420

Or at least Plato in his

dialogues applied it to him.

421

In regard to that question of whether

it's, whether the breeze is warm or cold.

422

Mansa, Metro, both things.

423

So if he measures it cold, it's cold.

424

If he measures it's warm, it's warm.

425

but he's talking about An individual

man, not humanity or mankind.

426

Yeah.

427

That's a good question.

428

There's actually been debate about that.

429

But because of the ways you used.

430

As Plato understood him.

431

in his dialogues, he was talking

about each person experiencing that

432

breeze at a different temperature.

433

Plato interpreter him is saying

that it was true for an individual,

434

not for humanity as a whole.

435

So, unless I see strong reasons,

I'm going to assume Plato probably

436

understood him pretty well.

437

Yeah.

438

That's so interesting because it makes

sense with things like the breeze and

439

perception, but with other things that.

440

Like there, where they would be

contradiction for people too.

441

Each man is the measure of all things.

442

It's just a very interesting, it stopped

provoking of how I'd be interested

443

in having a conversation with.

444

Protagoras just to see what

that was, that was like.

445

Sure.

446

Well, he probably best you because he

was pretty good in analysis and debate.

447

Apparently.

448

That's what his specialty was.

449

I bring you with me.

450

I'm just trying to have a cup of

coffee here and an interesting

451

conversation while you relax.

452

He sounds kind of intense.

453

Uh, maybe I don't know much

about it personally, but.

454

Um, but think about this then.

455

It man is the measure by which all things.

456

Or if man is what all

things are measured by.

457

Then you do not have by definition,

any concept of absolute truth.

458

There's no concept of right or wrong.

459

That's transcendent beyond man.

460

There's no concept of ultimate values.

461

Or purpose other than.

462

An individual man's.

463

determination of those things.

464

So what you've done.

465

And for the first time.

466

Explicitly done.

467

Is you have.

468

Cut off the top floor as it were.

469

You had said.

470

Mankind.

471

Is the only thing.

472

there is nothing above us that gives us

any sort of transcendent value or meaning.

473

It's all flattened out.

474

So there's nothing that is transcendent

that really affects us at all.

475

So Am I correct though,

trying to think there are past

476

conversations that there hasn't.

477

I mean this idea of absolute truth.

478

Absolute morality.

479

Hasn't totally been articulated.

480

Right because it hasn't

really been challenged.

481

In quite this formal

and consistent of a way.

482

So maybe it's, presumed to

exist, but there aren't people

483

out there trying to defend.

484

Absolute morality or.

485

Yeah.

486

I think that sentence.

487

That's what I would read it.

488

Yeah.

489

So, okay.

490

I mean, it makes sense then.

491

As Plato comes along, maybe he's

going to argue for some of that stuff.

492

or.

493

Okay.

494

So.

495

It's so interesting.

496

I love this historical approach because

you're seeing the way that it kind

497

of ebbs and flows and people have

ideas and they interact with that.

498

I I mean, nobody's writing in a vacuum.

499

And it's, it's really neat.

500

So even, before.

501

The transcendent truth is.

502

Argued, it's kind of presumed.

503

These guys are cutting at the

roots of that with their pragmatism

504

and relativism and skepticism.

505

Right.

506

and then that's going to be backed

up by some of the later guys.

507

So anything else on relativism

before I moved to pragmatism?

508

No, we'll circle back around.

509

We'll talk about the analysis

of some of this at the end.

510

Okay.

511

Cool.

512

So what's, pragmatism again.

513

This is another word that I feel like

we use generally, but probably has

514

a more technical definition here.

515

Well, Plaza is always trying to

make things more technical, but

516

in this case, The commonplace

definition is pretty good where.

517

You're basically concerned

with just getting along.

518

choosing the right means.

519

It's an emphasis on method over in goals.

520

Or just focus on what works.

521

Hmm.

522

So I'm not using any more technical

sense, but just the idea of.

523

Because there's.

524

No absolute truth.

525

Because there's no absolute standard.

526

There's no absolute purpose or morality.

527

Then what do you do?

528

Well, you do whatever works for your

own enlightened self advancement.

529

Enlightened self advancement.

530

Is the goal.

531

And whatever works towards

that is what you should do.

532

W, what do you mean by enlightened?

533

You just mean Intellectually.

534

Yeah.

535

So I think they didn't use that term.

536

enlightened self-interest

they would probably just use

537

self-interest, but it seems to go

along with their overall thought.

538

So a child can have the idea of what they

want is being the best thing for them.

539

But it's only later when they are.

540

more intelligent and wise

and can judge things better.

541

That they can see that some of the things

they thought were in their self-interest

542

before really weren't And enlightened

self-interest is one that understands.

543

That there's a long

game to be played here.

544

And it's not just what I desire right now.

545

But what will ultimately bring me

fulfillment and happiness and contentment.

546

That's what I'm choosing.

547

Okay.

548

So it's, knowing the right path.

549

But according to me, because man

is the measure of all things.

550

And so presumably the Sophos are

going to go around and try to say.

551

Hey, here's what the good life looks like.

552

And here's how you can be on it.

553

Right.

554

it's going to be very practical.

555

It's not going to include all this about

the gods in Transcendent truths and.

556

It's going to say here, is

that, is that about right?

557

Yeah.

558

I think that's a good way of putting it.

559

Okay.

560

Okay.

561

I might have the self-interest

to go out and eat?

562

Three cheeseburgers and some, uh,

cheesecake and fries for lunch.

563

Um, but that's not really my best

interest in the longterm, right?

564

Yeah.

565

So my enlightened self

interest says, okay.

566

My goal is to be able

to enjoy this life that.

567

Means I need to have a

certain measure of health.

568

So I'm going to restrain my desire right

now, but it's still for myself interest.

569

It's just a little bit more

enlightened than say a child.

570

Okay.

571

Or an animal.

572

Yeah.

573

That makes total sense.

574

I mean.

575

pragmatic is a good word.

576

That makes sense.

577

Yeah.

578

Yeah.

579

That's.

580

The idea of pragmatic.

581

Protagoras quote, virtue is

what is advantageous to me.

582

So that's a pretty

interesting quote there.

583

There's another quote, attributed to

him and want to play those dialogues.

584

For, I hold that whatever practices

seemed right and laudable.

585

to any particular state.

586

R.

587

So for that state, As

long as it holds by them.

588

As long as with them.

589

So here is extending that to.

590

society as A whole.

591

society.

592

If there are practices within

that society at the same, right.

593

And laudable where the appraise.

594

society.

595

Then they are.

596

As long as I stayed, holds by them.

597

they are, Hmm.

598

So this wasn't a revolutionary,

everyone do what they want.

599

Overthrow the government,

you know, have anarchy.

600

This was, Hey.

601

the laws and The Values of

particular state or, here it's

602

best for you to go along with them.

603

or.

604

There may be a point where it's

an app, but for the most part, get

605

along with the society's values.

606

That's a pragmatic thing to do.

607

or.

608

Yeah.

609

along with I mean, that, makes sense.

610

It does.

611

Until you come to question

like, well, what about slavery?

612

Something like that.

613

Or what about, you know, in Spartans?

614

Back to their own time exposing babies.

615

So if you don't want to baby, you

didn't have route to abortion,

616

but once the baby was born, if you

didn't want it, you would expose it

617

to the elements and it would die.

618

That was practicing Greece.

619

I don't know that.

620

it was an Athens, but it

certainly wasn't Sparta.

621

It's their own So that was a cultural

value held within A whole Greek society.

622

And.

623

You know, you come to question with that

weight, are you saying that there's

624

no way to determine that's wrong?

625

Other than the culture

itself eventually changes.

626

Hmm.

627

Yeah, I see what you're saying.

628

It's.

629

There's value in going with the

culture, but what about when the

630

culture is practicing something that.

631

Does it seem.

632

right?

633

Yeah, there's no way to

critique your culture.

634

There's no transcendent basis to say

a value that's prevalent within my

635

culture or another culture is wrong.

636

On a transcendent basis.

637

Right.

638

Other than, I mean, they could.

639

they could.

640

give reasons like, well, we want

to increase our population because

641

that's better for people or yada,

yada, yada, so the, argument, would

642

be based off of practical reasons,

not any sort of transcendent.

643

Yeah, absolute morality.

644

Yep.

645

So what did they just kind of accept that

when, when questions came up like about.

646

Slavery or, I mean, you would Yeah.

647

I don't think they even

questioned slavery.

648

I mean, that wasn't an issue.

649

Anyone questioned at that time.

650

So what about other issues

that maybe were a little bit

651

more contentious for the time?

652

What was the baby?

653

thing, contentious.

654

I don't know, actually it seems like

it should be, but I don't really.

655

Remember any debates about

that in ancient Greece?

656

Yeah, I mean, it seems.

657

Now, at least to us in our

context seems pretty, wrong.

658

Yeah.

659

So I'm kind of related to this.

660

There is a distinction that

many of the Sophos may between.

661

with custom in nature.

662

And this is a little bit different.

663

Take on it here though.

664

So custom the word there would

be the Greek word, not Moss.

665

well, we want Which can be also translated

law, but here is referring to customs.

666

Uh, Uh, customers something.

667

That a society has

chosen new value and do.

668

maybe an arbitrary sense, like

in the United States, we drive

669

on the right side of the road.

670

that wasn't anyone.

671

And if you go over to England, Okay.

672

You're going to problem because

they have a different custom.

673

And what they're arguing is

that all the laws and values.

674

Particular culture, our customs, none

of them have this transcendent basis.

675

So some of them then took them.

676

Some of this office, not all of them.

677

And I don't think Protagoras.

678

And so.

679

Took that as saying, well, since

all the laws are customs, Really,

680

we should prefer the law of nature.

681

Which is that the strong

should rule over the week.

682

That seems to be very given to them by

the fact that they are the stronger.

683

So many of them argued for that

based upon this pragmatic idea.

684

there That all the laws and

rules of society are simply

685

customs they're chosen, but

they're not transcendent values.

686

Hmm.

687

So the, one transcendent value was

that the strong rule, the weak.

688

Well, they would argue that

that's not a human custom.

689

That's a natural value

found in the, animal world.

690

For example.

691

A so everything Other than that was.

692

just customs.

693

Um, Well, I mean, there

had to be some overlap.

694

Thinking of Venn diagram here.

695

Right side of the road.

696

And if you can do.

697

You're It depends on this office.

698

I think, you know, I'm trying to

conflate many of them together

699

just to make it a little bit more

simplified and you get an overview.

700

But some of them, I

believe, would say that.

701

Probably some of that one.

702

Okay.

703

basis.

704

Gotcha.

705

No.

706

There's an interest in an

example of how this works out in.

707

Sophocles play Antigony.

708

I remember when I was a

freshman in college, the theater

709

department did this play.

710

And I was interested in one of the

girls who was playing the lead.

711

So I made sure to go to that.

712

Anyway.

713

nature just that If you ever seen Greek

theater, it's, it's very, very weird

714

if you're not used to it, you know?

715

But here's the background of the play.

716

So there's a civil war.

717

At the end, Creon, the king of

thieves proclaims at the body.

718

to Polly NECs I may not

be pronouncing that.

719

Right, but I'm going with it.

720

The Paulini see, as the leader of

the opposition remains on buried.

721

use.

722

in great tradition, this is a big no-no.

723

that'll Because if one's body was

not buried, then the spirit cannot

724

do part the Hades, the place of rest.

725

custom.

726

So Polynesia sister and

Tiffany defies to decree.

727

And Barry's the body.

728

It depends on the.

729

She's brought before the king.

730

She acknowledges that she

knew of the King's order.

731

in the.

732

And then she depends her

actions in these words.

733

These are very powerful, right?

734

some of that one.

735

It was not Zeus who published this decree.

736

Nor have the powers who rule

among the dead impose such

737

laws as this upon mankind.

738

That you should not bury him.

739

Nor could I think that a decree of

yours, a man could override the laws

740

of heaven, unwritten and unchanging.

741

in the queue.

742

Not up today or yesterday.

743

Is there authority?

744

They are eternal.

745

No man saw their birth.

746

one of the Was I to stand before

the gods tribunal for disobeying

747

them because I feared a man.

748

You ever in quote, it's very So her

point is beyond the conventional

749

justice that the king ruled down.

750

Don't bear this man,

because the king said, so.

751

There is a transcendent justice that

the King's laws may or may not align

752

with, but it's there, it's a turtle.

753

It's unchanging.

754

Before the Sophos.

755

And you couldn't make that appeal.

756

Hmm.

757

They're one might not, you might not

like a law and you might see to change

758

it, but there is no appeal to a higher.

759

Uh, more transcendent law to

justify violating any human law.

760

known Including the laws of slavery.

761

the spirit of So she's saying that.

762

The law.

763

of the king should be interpreted in light

of The law that the gods put in place.

764

Right.

765

It's office are saying.

766

new order?

767

There's no such thing.

768

Exactly.

769

So to each their own, when it comes

to interpreting the law, right.

770

Hm.

771

So that's a good example of how

that worked out and in drama,

772

that kind of debate and dialogue.

773

Yeah, that's neat.

774

A little bit richer than most of

our entertainment choices today.

775

You want to hop over to

analysis of all this?

776

Yeah, let's do that could All right.

777

heaven.

778

So obviously we are giving in one

half hour or 40 minute discussion.

779

in analysis of a whole movement of

the better part of two centuries,

780

we're making broad statements.

781

Yeah.

782

And this whole time.

783

But we're helped in our

analysis because people who are

784

very close to the situation.

785

did a lot of this hard work for us.

786

And especially Socrates and Plato.

787

So I'm just going to quibble

off their notes a little bit.

788

Now we have to remember.

789

Socrates didn't write anything.

790

Socrates.

791

Is the.

792

teacher of Plato.

793

And then Play-Doh who is the great

systematizer the great philosopher.

794

is going to create these dialogues.

795

It went to Socrates is

one of the characters.

796

And is going to argue.

797

These issues.

798

With the other people in the dialogues.

799

He's got 34 dialogue, 34 35.

800

and only one of those is by name.

801

At least it's devoted to one of the

previous philosophers, but for them.

802

but Are labeled by name

to one of the Sophos.

803

li.

804

So it kind of tells you.

805

what battles he was trying to fight.

806

Yeah.

807

It gets some significant.

808

screen time.

809

Yes, exactly.

810

Yeah.

811

And so his basic viewpoint is this.

812

Hostility to, or skepticism of the

idea of absolute truth is unacceptable.

813

You can't be hostile to, or skeptical of

the idea that there is an absolute truth.

814

a And I think he would argue two things.

815

Well, he did argue these.

816

First.

817

Because of the obvious

self-defeating nature of the claim

818

that there is no absolute truth.

819

that itself is a truth.

820

claim, right?

821

Uh, I'm trying to try to break it down.

822

So.

823

he's.

824

Saying.

825

that You shouldn't be skeptical.

826

You shouldn't be relativistic.

827

We Because.

828

There are absolute truths, right?

829

That's what I'm saying.

830

And you said there isn't any saying.

831

this is because.

832

of what, well, first of all, to make

the claim that there is no absolute

833

truth is a self-defeating statement.

834

It's self-contradictory right.

835

Break that down for me.

836

right.

837

Well, let me give you an example.

838

When I was teaching a class In philosophy.

839

We were talking about knowledge And truth.

840

the And one of the, one of the guys raised

his hand and says, well, you know what?

841

There is no absolute truth.

842

And so I stopped and.

843

Yeah, I had heard.

844

That ID before, obviously.

845

So.

846

Uh, bill.

847

I don't remember if that

was his name or not.

848

Do you mean that as a true statement?

849

And then Hm.

850

great sister at the And his eyes opened

and he looked at me like, Oh man.

851

And I was amazed because he had

never heard of that rebuttal before.

852

Yeah.

853

He's making.

854

Uh, truth claim that undermines

the ability to make truth claims.

855

to He's claiming there is no absolute

truth, but that itself is a truth claim.

856

Yeah.

857

Yeah.

858

And so he was so certain in propagating

this and had never even thought about

859

the inherent contradiction within that.

860

It's inherently contradictory that

he would say it's absolutely true

861

that there are no absolute true.

862

Exactly.

863

And again, it surprised me because

you know, this goes back to Socrates.

864

This.

865

Wasn't my argument.

866

are I know that's interesting

because you definitely see that.

867

that.

868

wave.

869

in our society, you do.

870

this.

871

But it's not new.

872

No.

873

Yeah.

874

2,500 years old.

875

Exactly.

876

the Yeah.

877

And a lot of people today will

make the claim that there is.

878

no absolute truth or

you can't know things.

879

is.

880

And yet they haven't really wrestled

through that idea of that self

881

contradiction and I, to be honest,

logically, I don't know how you could,

882

I don't know how you get past that.

883

an app.

884

It seems to me self-evident and.

885

Socrates and.

886

Plato smarter than me.

887

They certainly thought that way that.

888

I think he would also, he

You are absolutely making a

889

self-defeating statement when

you claim there is no truth.

890

Hmm.

891

so that's Socrates first.

892

point.

893

that shows this hostility toward the

skepticism or the relativism, right?

894

What's what's his other.

895

Oh, Basically.

896

His other is, Hey.

897

Look at the results of

this kind of belief.

898

Look at all that undermines

and all that, it does elevates.

899

That's what we talked about before.

900

call Okay.

901

If there is no truth, then truth

is relative to each person.

902

I'm saying.

903

Purpose morality.

904

These are all relative to each person

because, there's nothing beyond us.

905

And that Um, then you've

got these contradictory.

906

self Opinions.

907

that You can adjudicate hundreds revalues

and moral choices that you can't.

908

Argue against, or improve upon.

909

And.

910

Look at this look at

you Sophos yourselves.

911

Basically he goes onto this,

you know, is You're charging.

912

money so that other people can become

more skillful in self advancement.

913

is, that really wisdom?

914

is that really what

philosophy is all about?

915

Simply making money up people

towards their own agenda.

916

Yikes.

917

Yeah.

918

So he, he lays a new, a pretty good there.

919

Wow.

920

And that's.

921

Yeah, that's interesting.

922

as you're talking earlier,

I was thinking this, this is

923

definitely a move toward the self.

924

no thing.

925

Yes.

926

It really elevates personal

opinions or thoughts or beliefs.

927

selfish.

928

Above.

929

the values of this society.

930

And, it's interesting that Socrates.

931

The And played a, we're able to see

that If that's not imbalanced, then

932

that can, really wreck a society.

933

The Yeah, I'm glad you brought that.

934

out because in my final point here,

I think there are at least two things

935

that, were very valuable two things

that the Sophos brought that were

936

very valuable and that's one of them.

937

Yeah.

938

So The previous philosophers were

focused more on the, macro instead

939

of the microbe in the objective,

rather than the subjective.

940

So they're talking about what's the

nature of all reality, you know,

941

what's, what's everything made out of.

942

And there was very little focus

on what it means to be a human.

943

So he knew him.

944

Pretty And there was almost no focus

on what it means to be a subject.

945

in earliest.

946

And so they do balance that out.

947

And I think for that, we can be grateful.

948

Yeah, I think that those

two things need to be.

949

It seems like those two things can be.

950

held intention.

951

Sure.

952

Because If there are objective

truths, which I believe that

953

there are, I mean, finally.

954

People are approaching those.

955

Subjectively, because that's the

only way that they're able to do it.

956

So there is there is a relative ism about

the ways that we interact with the world.

957

But that doesn't necessarily

have to mean that all truths.

958

Especially The big truths.

959

Are all relative.

960

Exactly.

961

So that's, that's neat that

they brought that shift.

962

And I think that.

963

That can be helpful.

964

Yeah.

965

to.

966

what's the other one.

967

resume.

968

Well, The other.

969

Is that they brought forth.

970

And set the stage then for the two

great philosophers, Plato and Aristotle.

971

that Hmm.

972

bye.

973

Making that shift and by.

974

Responding to.

975

the previous philosophers.

976

And by promoting their viewpoint.

977

With SIM coherence and skill.

978

They set the stage for the great response.

979

said And it wasn't just a reputation.

980

a So Plato, we talked about

how he refuted that, right.

981

you did.

982

That's not all we did.

983

though.

984

all we did.

985

What he did was create a

system in which the objective.

986

the macro, the ultimate

out there is intertwined.

987

Then with the subjective, how

do I live then within this

988

universe that I find myself in.

989

None of the pre-Socratic

philosophers developed that idea.

990

At all.

991

And the self has come along and

they talk a lot about what you

992

should do, but it's all pragmatic.

993

It's not attached to

anything beyond itself.

994

Yeah.

995

Plato's one who comes along.

996

He is the great synthesizer,

not only of the ideas of the

997

previous philosophers in general.

998

He is that But also this whole dynamic.

999

Of this object of reality.

00:35:24,985 --> 00:35:26,616

hope has come a long That is true.

00:35:27,066 --> 00:35:28,356

It's not just an illusion.

00:35:28,386 --> 00:35:28,986

it's there.

00:35:29,050 --> 00:35:33,216

on But then to hide the individual

life choices of a person.

00:35:33,221 --> 00:35:34,476

comes To that thing.

00:35:35,496 --> 00:35:38,376

And without this office, maybe

that wouldn't have happened.

00:35:38,646 --> 00:35:38,916

Hmm.

00:35:39,666 --> 00:35:39,876

Hmm.

00:35:40,176 --> 00:35:44,826

And then Aristotle builds upon Play-Doh

improves upon him in some ways I think.

00:35:45,153 --> 00:35:49,173

but certainly Without Pluto, you went

out To the Aristotle that we have now.

00:35:49,659 --> 00:35:53,609

And without those two, Western

thought would be much impoverished.

00:35:53,909 --> 00:35:54,359

Wow.

00:35:55,139 --> 00:35:56,526

That's bold statement.

00:35:57,413 --> 00:35:58,446

To Yeah.

00:35:58,476 --> 00:35:59,466

So anyway.

00:35:59,513 --> 00:35:59,723

window.

00:35:59,783 --> 00:36:00,053

Hmm.

00:36:00,246 --> 00:36:01,236

That would be my.

00:36:01,236 --> 00:36:05,196

Brief take on the Sophos and

obviously there's a lot more.

00:36:05,196 --> 00:36:07,326

we could talk about with

each individual Sophos.

00:36:07,326 --> 00:36:10,296

but Next we're going

to move on to Socrates.

00:36:10,476 --> 00:36:11,076

Sounds great.

00:36:11,076 --> 00:36:13,956

Well, thank you for setting the stage

for that and excited to get into

00:36:13,986 --> 00:36:16,176

that and played on Aristotle and a.

00:36:16,343 --> 00:36:16,613

towns.

00:36:16,626 --> 00:36:17,256

This has been fun.

00:36:17,316 --> 00:36:17,646

Thanks.

00:36:17,856 --> 00:36:18,306

My pleasure.

00:36:18,426 --> 00:36:18,726

See ya.