We sit down with guest Ed Zirkle, a veteran and photographer. Ed begins by sharing that his involvement with a TED Talk on PTSD has led him to conduct extensive background research on the topic. He emphasizes that PTSD affects only a small percentage of people, particularly veterans, and is often considered an invisible wound.

Ed's primary goal is to help people understand what PTSD is from both the perspective of those who have it and those who interact with them. However, unlike some individuals with disabilities, he does not want to announce or openly display his own experiences with PTSD. He also mentions that he is grateful for the support he receives from the VA, including a monthly check, which allows him the independence and resources to pursue his passion for photography.

As a photographer, Ed sees himself as a documentarian. Currently, he is focused on documenting the stories of World War II veterans through portraits and interviews. He aims to capture their lives and experiences, ensuring that their stories are preserved for future generations. Once he has completed this project, he plans to seek out current serving frontline soldiers to document their stories as well.

In the late 1960s, Ed landed an internship at the Louisville Courier-Journal. He considers himself fortunate to have worked with prominent figures in club journalism, such as Bill Stroud, Thomas Harden, and Billy Lester. Eventually, he joined the Evansville Sunday Courier and Press, where he had a memorable encounter with a professional photographer who caught his attention while using an Instamatic camera.

Ed also shares a fascinating and unexpected experience during his time at Fort Bragg. He recounts a theft of a "gamma goat" from a medical vehicle on-post, which resulted in a high-speed pursuit involving MPs, sheriff units, and state police. As a photographer, Ed was tasked with photographing the minimal damage to the vehicle after the thief was stopped and apprehended. Little did he know at the time that he was experiencing symptoms of PTSD, including bad dreams and a feeling that something wasn't right.

Throughout the episode, Ed highlights the freedoms he enjoyed as a photojournalist, including access to police and fire training and the trust and close relationship he had with law enforcement. He acknowledges that these freedoms may have been influenced by his time in the service, where his photos frequently made front-page news.

Ed also touches on his experiences documenting different cultures, such as Indigenous communities, rodeos, and religious events. He expresses concern about the indoctrination of children into cult-like religions and highlights the importance of preserving one's cultural roots.

Towards the end of the episode, Ed discusses the limited resources available to veterans and the importance of mentorship. He aims to be a mentor to other veterans, offering workshops and guidance to help them navigate the world of photography.

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Recorded in Studio C at 511 Studios. A production of Circle270Media Podcast Consultants.

Copyright 2024 Carol Ventresca and Brett Johnson

Ed Zirkle [: 00:00:01

So, because of the the the TED Talk thing, I'm doing doing more background research on the PTSD. And there's only a small percentage of people that are veterans, and out of that percentage of veterans is even a smaller piece of the ones with PTSD. And then, you think in terms of PTSD is sort of an invisible wound. And trying to people to understand what that is, both from the aspect of the person who might have it, and from the aspect of the of the people that they have to deal with. And and how to bring that to the foreground without you know, I nothing I want to announce. It's nothing that I want to wear on my shoulder. I mean, people that have disabilities have a tendency some people to kind of throw that out there. And that's not not where we want to be with this.

Ed Zirkle [: 00:00:59

This is just gotta be something that you can go do. So for me, the photography and I didn't know this. I had no clue. I didn't know about PTSD. I was at the VA, and somebody said, what did you do? And I told them and they said, here, go down this room, and here's a piece paper. I checked off 3 quarters of it, and they said, yeah. You get PTSD.

Brett Johnson [: 00:01:18

And I'm like, that explains a few things.

Ed Zirkle [: 00:01:22

And then and then now there's been all these insights and realizations about why and how and what. And and photographically, it it does. It gets you involved with other people. Now I've got friends who are landscape photographers that don't wanna deal with people in any way, shape, or form, and they do absolutely wonderful work. But here again, that at least gets them out, then they get to publish the pictures so they get feedback, or they get to hang their images and they get feedback. So anything that you can do that interacts in such a way that you can get other people to look at and deal with it.

Brett Johnson [: 00:02:04

We are Looking Forward Our Way from Studio C in the 511 Studios in the Brewery District that's just south of downtown Columbus, Ohio. Hi. This is Brett, and with me is Carol as always. And, you know, each November, Carol and I wish to honor our veterans, highlighting the role they played to keep our country safe and and still do, actually, but also the contributions they make to our communities when they return. We're honored to highlight the work of local photojournalist Ed Zirkle And discuss the role he is playing to document and record some very important issues of our day. Ed, thanks for my so much for joining us today.

Ed Zirkle [: 00:02:38

Well, thank you for having me. I, feel blessed to have done my service and and come away a lot better than a lot of other veterans. And, sometimes you feel the weight of, trying to represent a lot of other people. So hope I do well for everybody today.

Carol Ventresca [: 00:02:57

Hope you well. Thank you. And and, they say it's a little bit trite, but thanking you for your service should be a meaningful statement. And and We've been doing this for quite a while.

Brett Johnson [: 00:03:09

Yeah.

Carol Ventresca [: 00:03:10

Talking to veterans and those who serve veterans in that November block of time. And so we're we were pretty excited to have you come because it's something very different.

Ed Zirkle [: 00:03:21

Oh, well, thank you very much. The other thing I find that especially when I get whenever I get a chance and see another veteran is to go up to them and and have a conversation. And for the for the guys from back in the day, the other thing is welcome home.

Carol Ventresca [: 00:03:35

Mhmm.

Ed Zirkle [: 00:03:36

Mhmm. That was very interesting, because when I came back, you had to fight to get your job back. And and nobody talks much about anything at all, period.

Carol Ventresca [: 00:03:46

Yeah. Right.

Brett Johnson [: 00:03:48

Let me ask a question right up front before we really dive into your world. What would you suggest when we approach a veteran, know a veteran? Yes. We wanna thank them, but what else can we do At that moment. I mean, we can it's easy to say thank you, and then and then you're done. What what else can we should we do? Or or maybe that is that enough?

Ed Zirkle [: 00:04:14

It's it's interesting. My conversations will be completely different from yours just because it's veteran to

Brett Johnson [: 00:04:21

Okay. Right. Right.

Ed Zirkle [: 00:04:22

But but you you have to be able to say, hey. You know, what did you do and and, anything you'd like to share.

Brett Johnson [: 00:04:30

Okay. And because because I don't know how far some may I I I And

Ed Zirkle [: 00:04:35

you're gonna get a variety of things.

Brett Johnson [: 00:04:36

Can you what can you without Triggering without Right. Going too far, but there are stories that we we should know.

Ed Zirkle [: 00:04:44

Yeah. There there are a lot of stories out there, and and, which is segue into something you're gonna talk about later, but the with the World War 2 veterans that I talked to. Mhmm. And, and some of the people said, well, you're not gonna get much out of them. And then I go in high and someone said, I was in the army a little bit after you. And that'll get a smile and then we start talking about different things and the stories are there. Yeah. The stories are there.

Ed Zirkle [: 00:05:06

So you you understand, and this is a different kind of news business that you're in. But you need to be able to make friends with whoever you're talking to in 30 seconds to a minute to get them to relax to be able to tell the story. And that's what it's about is to and be honest about it and be honest about it. And and that's part of, you know, if you meet a veteran's, hi. How you doing? And, hey. You know? Thanks. What what what did you do when you're in?

Brett Johnson [: 00:05:35

Okay.

Ed Zirkle [: 00:05:35

And see where they're at. You're gonna know within 2 or 3 seconds what kind of reply you get. Right.

Carol Ventresca [: 00:05:41

Okay. Which which which is probably better than saying, what can I do for you? Yeah.

Ed Zirkle [: 00:05:47

It's a it that's open ended.

Carol Ventresca [: 00:05:49

Well and and and, too, it could be intrusive. But if you ask someone What they did in their military service, you may find out they do need some help, and you can possibly help them or get them help As opposed to being intrusive, just saying that outright.

Ed Zirkle [: 00:06:06

Yeah. A lot of times people come up, especially in the stores, and they say, is there anything I can help you with? And it's like, I am so far beyond hell. Yeah. But but you get that reaction. If the person you find out immediately if that person's got a sense of humor. Right. You know? And if they just kinda look at you funny, it's like, yeah. Okay.

Ed Zirkle [: 00:06:24

I'm gonna move on.

Brett Johnson [: 00:06:25

But but but

Ed Zirkle [: 00:06:27

but otherwise, you you get a chuckle or you built this little rapport very quickly.

Brett Johnson [: 00:06:33

Right.

Carol Ventresca [: 00:06:33

Right. Okay.

Ed Zirkle [: 00:06:34

So Yeah. So you guys know upfront right now that I am beyond help.

Carol Ventresca [: 00:06:39

No. No. No. No. We have you on our

Brett Johnson [: 00:06:41

show. Right.

Carol Ventresca [: 00:06:42

This is we would not have you on our show.

Ed Zirkle [: 00:06:44

Which is another reason that I am so far beyond No.

Brett Johnson [: 00:06:48

And he may be thinking about it. He's like, they are so far behind it. Why do they have me on this? I was just

Carol Ventresca [: 00:06:53

I was just gonna say we have a cap. We've captured him for this. You can't go anywhere until we're done. Okay. So, Ed, we're gonna get back on track.

Ed Zirkle [: 00:07:02

Yes, ma'am. Yeah.

Carol Ventresca [: 00:07:03

Brett and I always say we have questions to Keep us on track. Right. So when I looked at your website, you just you're described as a traveler, A storyteller, a documentarian.

Ed Zirkle [: 00:07:15

I paid somebody to direct

Carol Ventresca [: 00:07:17

that. So If they're wonderful. It's wonderful words. Me, I was just gonna say you were a photographer. How do you describe yourself? Tell us about your early career, and how did you get started on this path?

Ed Zirkle [: 00:07:30

Well, it all started when mom and dad you know?

Brett Johnson [: 00:07:33

So Folks, you missed an hour of this preshow we should have recorded. Yeah. So you're just getting a A little bit of taste of it. Yes.

Ed Zirkle [: 00:07:42

So so back in the sixties, we were in Hinsdale, suburb of Chicago, and the Glinkys lived across the 3 and if Carol is still alive and kicking. Her brother is like, you know, here's my sister, whatever. And but her brother's in photography, and and, unfortunately, for Carol, it was more interesting than she was. So at that age, you know, and that kinda started the whole thing, you know, and went downhill from there. And I ended up in Louisville, Kentucky and took some photo classes and got to internship at the Louisville Courier Journal on Times. This is the late sixties, and, was very lucky, to to be with some titans of the club journalism industry back then. Bill Stroud, c Thomas Harden. Billy Lester came on after I left and, ended up over in Evansville Sunday Curry and Press, J Bruce Bauman.

Ed Zirkle [: 00:08:44

Jay and I still need to have a conversation about the night that he brought me film, and I processed it, and he was all over the place. And, basically, it was a joke because there was nothing on the film at the time. And then from that because the industry, everybody kinda knew everybody. And, Randy Dieter, who's a dear friend, got me hooked up with the Mansfield News Journal. And I was still kind of finding my way, but I ended up in the news journal for 10 some years and and did well. I mean, it just, I have a visual acuity apparently that the things just fall into place for me, and, you know, part of what happens when you shoot is having an understanding of the equipment that you're using. It's a tool. But the other other part of it is having an awareness of what the moment is and then throwing luck into the pot and then stirring the pot and hoping that the things fall into place, when you press that button.

Ed Zirkle [: 00:09:48

Mhmm. Yeah. That's kinda where we're at.

Brett Johnson [: 00:09:51

So as a young man, you, you were in the military during the Vietnam conflict. How were you able to utilize your photography skills to serve the military? Yeah. Can you give us a picture, pun intended, Of your steps into the military, how your photography was documenting the conflict, and and kept you grounded with your service.

Ed Zirkle [: 00:10:10

Well, this is kind of interesting. I was married, working full time, and my draft number was 18. And so I had a choice of, if I signed up, a, I could pick my job, and, b, there was a 3 month delay program. So you actually had 3 months of service when you went in, which is you know, thought that was kinda cool. I'd had a little bit of German in high school. James Bond was the thing. I was a photographer, and all they do is speak me, teach me lock picking, and I was gonna be a spy in Germany. I was going to Berlin.

Ed Zirkle [: 00:10:45

I mean, it was gonna be a cool time. Took the army language aptitude test and found out I was done as a rockman. It came to languages, and they said you could be a mechanic or an MP. And it's like, okay. I'll be a mechanic. I got sent to Fort Bragg and for my service. And somehow, they found out I was a photojournalist, and I ended up getting my orders pulled. And I was made the post photographer for a break, which was very cool.

Ed Zirkle [: 00:11:13

I mean, I got to do all kinds of interesting things. That photo that I showed you earlier that is one of the 3 that was picked up to go to Delaware Fair and then, hang up at the the Veterans Museum here in town, came out of that. So there are firepower demonstrations. They were riding around on helicopters. When We Were Young, the Mel Gibson movie in the in the book about the Vietnam conflict. In the beginnings of the air calve, trying to find out general Tolleson, who was the post commander at the time, was one of the guys that started that, which is why I think I end up helicopters all over the place for 6 months. That job came to a close, and I got sent over to a thing called CID, which is criminal investigation division. So I spent my entire time at Fort Bragg, but CID back then, covered anything that was of a major case on post and anything that happened off post.

Ed Zirkle [: 00:12:13

ent that happened in February: 1970

Ed Zirkle [: 00:13:04

And I have a feeling that they were doing things with, like, an Insta Matic and then found out there was a professional photographer on, and I got pulled over because I reforogracked that crime scene. And that became like a book a movie, and this guy is still in jail, and it it was it was just kinda crazy. So Fort Bragg was was a was a really, really crazy time back and people coming back for you. The the the drugs, the the anger, the all kinds of things that were going on. There's a thing called a gamma goat that was, 6 wheeled vehicle. And a gamma goat, he turned the front wheels, the the rear wheels. It was like a deuce and a half at time, but it can go over anything and around anything. It was a pretty cool vehicle.

Ed Zirkle [: 00:13:49

And we were in the office, and, we heard the MPs call that somebody had stolen, the scammer goat that had, it was a Red Cross vehicle or not a Red Cross vehicle, but it was a medical vehicle on post, and we were it was like, as long as she stays on post, piece of cake. And this guy goes off post, so he's got MPs following him, and he picks up the sheriff units. Guy again is going through downtown Fayetteville. Picks up PD, the staties. Everybody thinks it's an exercise because it's a military vehicle with a red cross on it and police and so on and so forth, and, ends up getting bogged down around I 95 trying to get on or off the 95, and I they sent me out there to photograph the damage of the, they shot at him. They're trying to get him to stop doing this. He got out there, and it was it was like the the paint had chipped off the vehicle when they shot at him. So so it was that kind of craziness that just went on for for 2 years.

Ed Zirkle [: 00:14:50

So

Carol Ventresca [: 00:14:51

So, Ed, the I think For those of us who grew up at this period of time, what we see today is a very different attitude For those who came back during Vietnam, coming back into the states, coming home, compared to what young men and women today, have happening around them where everybody's excited to see them and kids are running and you know? Families used to literally hide When their relative came back from Vietnam, even though you were here, tell us about that experience of, What you were subjected to?

Ed Zirkle [: 00:15:36

I wasn't really so I never felt subjected, to what I didn't realize at the time was PTSD, which created a different set of issues. I knew I was having bad dreams. I knew there something wasn't quite right, but because I worked at CID, they were criminal cases. You couldn't talk about those, so there's an issue with that. And, how do you explain that you wake up thinking that your pillow is a piece of somebody's leg because they got blown up, and that's what you end up photographing. And what what are they gonna think about you, and what are they gonna tell your employer? And, I mean, it's just a rabbit hole. Frank Howard was the managing editor for the for the newspaper in in the news journal, and Frank was Frank was right out of central casting if you wanna talk about a tall, gruff, you know, in your face news editor. I mean, that's that's what it was back then.

Ed Zirkle [: 00:16:38

And and we would have arguments that the entire building could hear, and I get fired, I go away, and then I get hired back again. And, I mean, this just went back and forth. And a part of that, I think, were just anger issues out of the PTSD, but I had no idea, because police department called me up at 2 o'clock in the morning and say, hey. We'd had a bad accident, and I go take pictures for him. And we'd have all these front page images that everybody ate up, so it was kind of a weird twisted thing that was going on back and forth.

Carol Ventresca [: 00:17:06

So you weren't subjected to behavior that We would not expect today, but what you were what you were experiencing was a lack of knowledge Of what veterans were going through, which were much better at trying to figure that out.

Ed Zirkle [: 00:17:21

Yeah. Yeah. We had a couple veterans there. 1 of the guys, and I can't remember his name, we'd go in and sit down, and he wouldn't say a word. And I think the people he was gonna interview got nervous, and they would talk. They would just spill their guts. And then you go back and write it, and then they come back later and say, why did you write that? And he's like, well, you told me.

Carol Ventresca [: 00:17:39

Mhmm.

Ed Zirkle [: 00:17:40

You know? It it was it was, you know and and maybe because as a photojournalist, as a news photographer, you know, we we made friends with the things you can't do now. I mean, I went to police and fire trainings. I I got to I the police department hold me as hostage for the new recruits because the new recruits didn't know who I was. I mean, we had that kind of relationship. I could go to some incident and have a police car in front of me behind me, and they're not gonna stop me because they're gonna be on front page. So maybe part of what was being wound up from the stuff in the service continued on and just perpetuate itself and going on and doing the the various, news photos where I got a chance to. It goes on crazy things, and they would let me in.

Brett Johnson [: 00:18:36

Yeah. Well, on the positive side, though, not that that's Negative. All negative, but at the same time, benefit of military service was the educational funding to complete your bachelor's degree in fine arts. Talk about the training you received, how you define this your style then and and how you capitalized on the training to create your own studio.

Ed Zirkle [: 00:18:59

Well, Haskett Hall doesn't exist at Ohio State University anymore, and and the photo photo department and all of that kind of has all gone away, so they've kind of melded the things back into, the fine arts program. But it's nothing like what it was back in the day. This is in the eighties. And, Ardeen, who's who's still with us, and she hangs her work, up. And Frederick, her husband, we're we're still friends, and they get to do some of the things, but a lot of these people are gone from from back in the day. The it was I got to learn studio. I as a news photographer, as a photojournalist, you learn to do things very, very quickly, Anne, Anna, appreciate. And getting in and out of, a dark room, you know, there were no rules or regulations.

Ed Zirkle [: 00:19:54

It's just get it done. So going and getting my degree, I learned some finer points about how things, quote, unquote, are supposed to be done, and got to meld those 2 different types of background together and learn 4 by 5 processing, with a a large format camera, which helped me, when I finally opened up a studio. So it it was a great combination because I could do things really quickly and, and had a a kind of an interesting different skill set out of all that. Make sense?

Brett Johnson [: 00:20:30

Yeah. It does. It does. I because I've it always amazes me. My son Took photography class in high school all the way to photography 1, 2, and 3, and and they start off with, you know, the point and shoot Film Right. Which is very difficult. Maybe maybe 1 shop in Columbus that even has film, you know, that sort of thing. And You you think about that the photos that you show that you showed us prior to the show and such that it's that, This isn't digital.

Brett Johnson [: 00:21:02

This is a you took that picture, and you don't even know what you took at that you you do, but you don't until you develop it.

Ed Zirkle [: 00:21:10

Oh, yeah. No. It it it

Brett Johnson [: 00:21:11

It's it's it's just a totally different world in regards to taking pictures.

Ed Zirkle [: 00:21:16

They there's a term called chimping where where they take a picture and then you look and see. Okay. Then take a picture and you look and see real quick. And, sometimes I do that. Other times, I'm just concentrating on what's happening in front of me. But, yeah, it's you know? And you had 36 shots. The right. Yeah.

Ed Zirkle [: 00:21:35

The the little chip that I have in my camera, I can do thousands of pictures before I have to do anything. Right? And it's the same thing with with cell phones. If you think in terms of the fact that back in the day, you would go buy a camera, a point and shoot, you'd it and it was 24, 36, exposures, and so there were a couple taken at Easter. There's something in a birthday. Yeah. It might be something at Thanksgiving. Thing. That camera might last you a year.

Ed Zirkle [: 00:22:03

They you get processed. You get a a a square or 4 by 6 image back, and that would end up in a shoe box or or, a, the wrong kind of plastic sleeve in a in a book, that may or may not be seen again. So we have cell phones now. So people take pictures on that, and they don't wanna take them off the cell phone because, oh my god, that might disappear. And and, you know, we got cloud storage, and you can put them on your computer, and it's just a whole different but it's still the same thing. It's like there's certain pictures, certain time of the year and Mhmm. Then yeah. Yeah.

Ed Zirkle [: 00:22:39

Yeah. Things have changed and things haven't changed at all.

Brett Johnson [: 00:22:42

Did you embrace the digital When it started to come? Or did you kinda fight it?

Ed Zirkle [: 00:22:47

't until to the beginnings of: 2000

Brett Johnson [: 00:22:56

Okay.

Ed Zirkle [: 00:22:57

And then and and if they talk about, well, it's digital is cheap, and it's like, no. It's not because of the cameras. And then the cameras get updated, and then there's the software, and then the software gets updated. And then there's your computer, and the computer's gotta be updated. And you run out of storage space. And and and and and and and, like, we were talking about, you know, the cell phones, well, there's a new cell phone that takes a higher resolution, and so we gotta go to the new cell phone and just, yeah. It's it's, you know, back in the day, you had film. You had 2 or 3 lenses.

Ed Zirkle [: 00:23:31

You had the camera. You process it. It got done. Move on. Mhmm.

Brett Johnson [: 00:23:36

Not now. No. No. Exactly.

Carol Ventresca [: 00:23:39

ll phone and you could take a: 100000

Ed Zirkle [: 00:23:55

Oh, no.

Carol Ventresca [: 00:23:56

One of them is gonna be good.

Ed Zirkle [: 00:23:58

No. I, I have a tendency to use actually, I have a tendency to use my cell phone sort of like a 4 by 5 camera. Because with the 4 by 5 camera, you put the over your head, and you would open up the lens and look and see, and so I'm gonna compose. And and I have a tendency to take the time with that. For those of you at home, I just pointed to my cell phone. That,

Carol Ventresca [: 00:24:22

Show and tell.

Ed Zirkle [: 00:24:23

Yes. Right? Tune in next week. So, with the cell phone, I have a tendency to take the time to compose and put it together a certain way. I mean, there are times when things just happen and you just do. But, no, I take more time than to do with this because I can do images off of this that go, you know, the size of your TV up there. It's another thing you can't see at home, but they have a big TV up on the wall. So, so, yeah, I do take the time with that.

Brett Johnson [: 00:24:51

Okay.

Ed Zirkle [: 00:24:52

But the other thing is with the new cameras, I mean, the new cameras that I have, the the Nikon, the Z9. You can put a setting on it that you can catch a bullet coming out of without a gun. It's it's that quick. Mhmm. But if you don't know what you're doing, if you don't take and have your internal eye line things up way it's supposed to be. It doesn't make any difference, whether I'm running around with a box camera or a a brand new digital. I mean, you've gotta understand the image and what you're trying to capture and where it's at, that kind

Carol Ventresca [: 00:25:25

of thing. As you've said, you have you've got the eye. You can see

Ed Zirkle [: 00:25:31

well, you

Carol Ventresca [: 00:25:31

that picture. I have a friend who, even with her little tiny camera on her phone, Takes phenomenal pictures. I could take the same thing, not even close.

Ed Zirkle [: 00:25:42

Yeah. It's, it it part of it is the anticipation and knowing what's gonna happen. The rodeo stuff out in New Mexico this last, last week. I knew where I needed to be. I knew where the chute, which is a gate where they let the the whether it's bull riding, bareback riding, whatever they were doing. So you you anticipate where they're going to be, and that allows you to to to capture that image that you think might be there. And if the photocards are smiling on you. That that happens.

Carol Ventresca [: 00:26:15

Right. Well, my my friend does theater in Chicago, and she directs Some theater. So she understands that whole notion of blocking. Yeah. You she can see the picture. Me, I'm just clicking. Big difference. Yeah.

Carol Ventresca [: 00:26:29

So

Ed Zirkle [: 00:26:30

So this is just earlier today.

Carol Ventresca [: 00:26:32

Oh my gosh. Beautiful. I'm sorry that our our, audience can't see it. We'll, if you send it to me, we'll put it up on Sure. The website.

Ed Zirkle [: 00:26:40

Sure.

Carol Ventresca [: 00:26:41

Very cool. Very, very cool. Yeah. Okay. So Going through your career steps, you've been in and out of photography, doing some other kinds of things. But you have several really cool projects that you're working on for photography. You you just mentioned what you were doing in in New Mexico. There were several that you told me about when we talked before we came up with our podcast Mhmm.

Carol Ventresca [: 00:27:09

Idea. So tell us a little bit about documenting the World War 2 veterans and comparing the work they're doing to military work today.

Ed Zirkle [: 00:27:20

So part of the World War two thing, I think, is the the fact that the VA has been very good to me, and I get a monthly check. And it allows me to do my own projects to to be fairly independent, and to be able to able to go back to the World War 2, people that saw something entirely different and to, a, do a portrait of them, and b, allow them to just tell their story. Mhmm. So so you you know, I sometimes, I think myself more as a documentarian than anything else. I mean, a visual sociology, to be able to go out and, record life that may or may not ever be around again. And so I'd be able to sit down with these gentlemen. And so, a, you have a portrait of them that hopefully will live for a very long time, and, b, you get their story and their words from from them as they talk about it. And one of the things that is funny, the the way you worded that question, was once I get the these, World War 2 veterans, documented, I wanna go to, Department of Defense DOD in fine the corresponding current serving frontline soldier that matches the World War 2 veteran.

Ed Zirkle [: 00:28:45

So for the so I I got to talk to a gentleman. He's a Navajo code talker. He's the last code talker, who was at he was at Iwo Jima. You sent him back to Pearl. You sent him to Nagasaki. He he sat down and talked to me for an hour, part of it in Navajo, saying the marine hymn at the whole at the end of the whole thing in Navajo. I mean, it was an amazing experience. I know that there are Navajo Indians that are into communications currently.

Ed Zirkle [: 00:29:16

So to be able to go and document them now and then marry those 2 stories together. One of the the ladies, decoded German U Boat messages. She was a navy, navy WAC, and she she she's a 100 going on a 102 now. She's over Pittsburgh way. I have a feeling that there are navy female Navy officers, that are doing encryption work, to get their story and how their story fits in with, like, her story and melt those 2 things up.

Brett Johnson [: 00:29:49

Mhmm.

Ed Zirkle [: 00:29:50

I think that'd be for me and and that's what a lot of this is about. It's not it's not what you guys think. It's what I think might be interesting. And then if you seem to like it, that's just icing on the cake for me, that I can go do this and then ring back, and then hopefully, it's something that has, something of an audience to it. Mhmm. But if you don't go do it, then it'll never get seen no matter what. And the other thing, and I don't know if you, you talk about this later on, and jump from b to

Brett Johnson [: 00:30:30

c or d here real quick.

Carol Ventresca [: 00:30:31

We we can jump. Not a not a problem.

Ed Zirkle [: 00:30:34

Part of part of these projects is it it gets me out of the house. When I was working for the newspaper, you were you were on assignment. You would leave. So now I don't have to leave the house. I don't have to this. I don't have to that. But I know that just staying in the house is probably the healthiest thing in the world for me. So the photography in the way is a great source of therapy.

Ed Zirkle [: 00:31:00

Get out to see and meet people and do things and record stuff and bring things back then have other interactions and that kind of thing.

Carol Ventresca [: 00:31:07

Well, I think We are all concerned that we want true pictures of history, and you're really Giving to that too. We're we're going to understand what an individual went through in World War 2, And we can then visualize it in today's world by doing those comparisons. Now you're doing that also with Ukrainian Soldiers. Is that correct?

Ed Zirkle [: 00:31:33

No. I haven't had a chance to that's a whole different ball of wax, the permissions to get to the front line, to do things. I had a chance to go to Ukraine twice, once last October, November, and then this February, March. February there was on the 24th, which is the 1 year marker of the thing and was at Kharkiv, which is about 24, 27 miles away from the Russian border. So Kharkiv and and Kyiv were the 2 major cities that the Russians sought. They take those, and everything's over and done with. So I got a chance on the 2nd trip to go there. 1 of the Rotarians that I was working with was really nice, and, it gave me access to her mother's car.

Ed Zirkle [: 00:32:16

Her mom's in Paris. And with the admonishment that, a, there's no insurance on her car, and b, please, do not let the, let the soldiers take the car. My re response was not a problem. I'll be very careful with the car. I didn't tell her this, but if the soldiers ask for the car, I'm gonna be like, can I get my equipment out? And then you're more than welcome to the car. Thank you very much. It's just you know? Yeah. But, I, you know, I when I go out on some of these things, especially something like that, you're you're dressed in black.

Ed Zirkle [: 00:32:48

You don't wanna take up much in the way of attention, if anything. I had blacked out American flag on the shoulder and and thing that said press and the thing that said rotary and some other things that they they allow me to have. You know, soldiers look in the window, and they just it's it's like it's another crazy American and just wave you on. But, I I came back from, someplace. And the the the 1st trip, it was interesting. The 1st trip, everything was at night, on the trains. All the windows and all the trains were all taped to to keep from any of the glass shattering. The the, it was diesel engines that were taking around, the February, March.

Ed Zirkle [: 00:33:36

It was electric. It was during the day. There's Wi Fi in one of the trains. It was just wild. And then the people have a no nonsense feeling about the the war and the aspect that we've got to continue living. Air raid sirens would go off, and they would you know, the the train station in Kyiv is huge. There's 2 sections on either side and over the tracks and so on. I went down and asked 1 of the ladies that I knew that wore a certain jacket that spoke English so I could get some more train train tickets to go someplace else, and they kicked everybody out.

Ed Zirkle [: 00:34:12

So everybody didn't go to the shelters. They stood outside the doors of the train station with their cell phones waiting for the all clear so they get back in and get back to their business. It's just, you know, the kind of the way things are. And, so, you know, getting around is is quite quite interesting, quite amazing. These wonderful people. It's unfortunate, you know, with the it's more than unfortunate what the Russians are doing and, you know, the reasons behind it. It's just it's nuts. But, it's a beautiful kind.

Ed Zirkle [: 00:34:46

I'm just, like, going through a high on some aspects. You know, the cows in the hills, and they're out farming. And and I was at a strawberry field, and they were doing some things and bringing in lettuce. And, but on the other hand, we don't have opera houses in the United States like what they have. Oh my god. They're just gorgeous. And the old streets, I I kept on thinking I'm walking down a street that's probably older than United States. I mean, it's

Carol Ventresca [: 00:35:14

Oh, probably.

Ed Zirkle [: 00:35:15

You know? And and and some of the Rotarians invited me up. There's a big, gathering convention in in leave, and they invited me up to the apartment and went up there. And and, they're like, hey. You want some of this? And they turn around and offer me a box of Kentucky fried chicken. I'm like, I didn't travel these many thousands of miles always to to to have some KFC. Nothing nothing against KFC, but your local vodka is very good, so I will partake that.

Brett Johnson [: 00:35:43

Thank you very much.

Carol Ventresca [: 00:35:45

Well, are there are there other kinds of projects that you would like to mention today that you've been working on?

Ed Zirkle [: 00:35:54

Yes. My brain goes back. Other than the fact that, probably, it's gonna be this ongoing thing about going out to to Gallup, New Mexico and spending a little more time, once a year when the the the gathering of the nations get together, the various Indian tribes, from from around the United States to to go there, Apache, Navajo, met a group from San Diego there were descendants of Aztec like warriors from Mexico,

Brett Johnson [: 00:36:26

and

Ed Zirkle [: 00:36:26

their headdresses were just amazing. And the other thing is that, you you wonder about some of the religions and and indoctrination to the children into something cult like. These kids are getting to grow up in a culture that's not getting lost. At the rodeo, there was a young lady that that did everything in Navajo. She explained where and why and how and what and then translated for everything. But, but it's it's it is, you know, mother earth, the sky, the sun, how it all comes together this in a completely different environment than what we're used to here. And, you get a chance to go out in the middle of nowhere and actually kinda tune in to, your your, you don't have all of what we have here in town with noise and light and and, the craziness and this and that and everything else. I had a chance on the way out.

Ed Zirkle [: 00:37:38

I was in one of the toes, and, the sun had set, but the sky was gorgeous. And it's like, oh, that'd make a great picture, but there's nothing really there to to offset just sunset. As I'm driving down the road, I see there's a small pond, and in the background are all these power windmills. And stopped the car in the middle literally in the middle of the road. The car door is open. I'm getting cameras out. I'm taking pictures with my cameras and with with the cell phone. I'm doing all this stuff because there's nobody around for miles and miles and miles.

Ed Zirkle [: 00:38:15

I mean, you're in the middle of nowhere, nowhere. And, and then I realized I could hear the swooshing of the blades on these windmills from the area. It was that quiet. And, so yeah. I mean, you've you know, it's I'd love to have everybody in Columbus just to kinda take off and go down the highway a little bit and get out of the city to realize how nice it is back here in Columbus, but that, you know, how much there is around the world that that you just don't know about unless you get out there.

Brett Johnson [: 00:38:50

Yeah. Are you creating art? Do you think of it? Or are you just making a record of the day's events, which can be art Or both. I because to me, you that description of getting out of your car, taking a picture, it's just living the moment. Let the moment happen. And, to me, that's art.

Ed Zirkle [: 00:39:13

If you allow yourself to allow yourself. Right. Okay. I don't think of myself as an artist. I don't think in those terms.

Brett Johnson [: 00:39:21

Okay.

Ed Zirkle [: 00:39:22

It's just I do what I do. And if somebody thinks it's absolutely wonderful, then that then I get to be, you know, that much happier about, what I'm talking about. Oh my gosh. It's gorgeous. Listeners, hey.

Brett Johnson [: 00:39:33

He pulled up the picture. Wow.

Ed Zirkle [: 00:39:35

So this is

Carol Ventresca [: 00:39:36

We we do have to add those pictures to our website.

Brett Johnson [: 00:39:39

Yeah. But, you know, what what you described Right there is that you create what you create. And if people consider art, that's great. I think artists think that way, though. Don't they? I Are not. I I'm not an artist, so I don't know. But I I kinda get that feeling that this is me. I'm pulling it out of me.

Brett Johnson [: 00:39:57

And You like it or not, I don't care.

Ed Zirkle [: 00:39:59

When when I think back, to some of the masters, who knew different people from different media? Photographer that that knew say, photographer that knew Pablo Picasso. That would be an entirely different kind of conversation, and they have entirely different insight and meaning into where and how and why and what. I can remember at Ohio State, they would some of the classes, where they bring a picture up and they start talking about it. It's like, so do you know the photographer? Do you know, anything about it. It says, well, no. This is, this is what we think that they were doing. It's like, well, you don't know unless you have a chance, and even then if somebody asked me about one of these pictures, it's like, I don't know. My brain just thought it fell into place.

Ed Zirkle [: 00:40:45

It's not a very educated answer. It's just that that worked for me. I thought that worked for me.

Brett Johnson [: 00:40:53

But it's but you have a story behind that picture. Yeah. So strong. Right. You felt the urge. You Stopped in the middle of that. You you described this whole story for 5 minutes about how you got that picture.

Carol Ventresca [: 00:41:05

We were seeing it In our mind's eye

Brett Johnson [: 00:41:09

Yeah.

Carol Ventresca [: 00:41:10

From your description. And Then we saw the actual picture.

Ed Zirkle [: 00:41:14

drive down the road and see a: 100000

Brett Johnson [: 00:41:37

go back?

Ed Zirkle [: 00:41:37

Right. And there were there were a couple of times during sorry. There were a couple times during the trip where I literally was like, oh my god. I gotta go back. And I've and I've got some more images in there where I I literally stopped the car, turned around, went back because that to me was, like, just talking to me. Mhmm.

Carol Ventresca [: 00:41:58

So it is this the same as what you're doing when you've created your photographic magazines on Exploring Ohio and exploring Columbus?

Ed Zirkle [: 00:42:08

Yeah. Somebody nobody had ever registered exploring ohio.com or exploringcolumbus .com, and I found out about exploring columbus.com later. Yeah. Right? Yeah. Found out exploring columbus.com, which I haven't had a chance to really do anything with yet. And, when they and I kicked myself when the pandemic came. I should have been out on the exploring, ohio.com and just documenting all kinds of stuff and putting up and saying, hey. Here's something you can go do that you don't have to worry about running into.

Ed Zirkle [: 00:42:38

And and I didn't. So those have been sort of on hold while I'm doing the World War 2 project and then going to Ukraine and so on. Once I have those projects a little underfoot, then or or or, in the can, so to speak. Yeah. I'm looking at, being able to do something that people coming to Ohio or in Columbus, we'll be able to go and and cycle. That that's kind of fun to do and and just, Right.

Brett Johnson [: 00:43:12

We'll have you back when When you get that going. Yeah. Seriously. Yeah. I I I think

Carol Ventresca [: 00:43:15

that'd be a great show.

Brett Johnson [: 00:43:16

That'd be a great show.

Ed Zirkle [: 00:43:17

Yeah. And and and and it's it's like it's a continuation of doing the newspaper except you get to do your own cool stories, and then you're gonna tell me, it's like, hey. Did you know about whatever? And it's like, oh, that sounds like fun. And

Carol Ventresca [: 00:43:29

Right.

Brett Johnson [: 00:43:29

Yeah.

Ed Zirkle [: 00:43:29

You know? The

Brett Johnson [: 00:43:30

leads burning themselves on.

Carol Ventresca [: 00:43:31

Great.

Ed Zirkle [: 00:43:31

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Brett Johnson [: 00:43:33

Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Any other any other projects that you wanna talk about? Anything new plans for the new year?

Ed Zirkle [: 00:43:39

No. My brain is sort of filled right now.

Brett Johnson [: 00:43:43

You've talked about a lot right now, actually. Yeah.

Carol Ventresca [: 00:43:45

But one thing I wanted To bring up is a conversation you and I had about the art therapy program for veterans at the Chalmers Wiley Veterans Clinic here in Columbus.

Ed Zirkle [: 00:43:56

Yeah. There are a couple people over there, and and it's here again, it's if the veteran allows himself to allow them so to go in and try something new.

Carol Ventresca [: 00:44:10

Mhmm.

Ed Zirkle [: 00:44:11

That's that's the whole thing. It's like, yeah, that'd be fun, which is one level, but to actually go do it and get involved. And part of it is, yeah, the the VA here in town is absolutely wonderful. They do so much for everybody, but there's still a fine finite amount of time and energy and money. I just talked to a gentleman couple days ago that I ran into that is trying to figure out how to get some additional things done and where am I gonna get the resources from oh, man. How do I get people to know that it's here? That kind of thing. And online, there's a variety of things out there that, I've got a page saved that has to do with some other veterans who are photographers that are trying to work with other veterans to get them involved. And and I know a couple of workshop groups that I I would love to be a a mentor and get them to get veterans

Carol Ventresca [: 00:45:12

to

Ed Zirkle [: 00:45:12

get out and and do something. It is making a difference in photography, if it's drawing, if it's music, whatever. But something that gets your mind on and going in a different direction than just, rethinking or or or digging a hole for yourself that you don't need to dig.

Brett Johnson [: 00:45:29

Right. Oh, we always end with last words of wisdom. You saw that coming up, but you said, Willie, you wanna ask me that? But but What advice would you give in in in in any realm, whether you're a first time photographer or how to handle the stress of being a veteran?

Ed Zirkle [: 00:45:53

So because of the the TED Talk thing, I'm doing doing more background research on the PTSD. And there's only a small percentage of people that are veterans, and out of that percentage of veterans is even a smaller piece of the the ones with PTSD. And then, you think in terms of PTSD is sort of an invisible wound. And trying to people to understand what that is, both from the aspect of the person who might have it and from the aspect of the of the people that they have to deal with. Mhmm. And and how to bring that to the foreground without you know, I it's nothing I want to announce. It's nothing that I want to wear on my shoulder. I mean, people that have disabilities have a tendency some people to kind of throw that out there, and that's not not where we wanna be with this.

Ed Zirkle [: 00:46:50

This is just gotta be something that you can go do. So for me, the photography and I didn't know this. I had no clue. I didn't know about PTSD. I was at the VA, and somebody said, what did you do? And I told them, and they said, here, go down this room, and here's a piece paper. I checked off 3 quarters of it, and they said, yeah. You get PTSD. And I'm like,

Brett Johnson [: 00:47:10

that explains a few things.

Ed Zirkle [: 00:47:12

And then and then now there's been all these insights and realizations about why and how and what. And and photographically, it it does. It gets you involved with other people. Now I've got friends who are landscape photographers that don't wanna deal with people in any way, shape, or form, and they do absolutely wonderful work. But here again, that at least gets them out, then they get to publish the pictures so they get feedback, or they get to hang their images and they get feedback. So anything that you can do that interacts in such a way that you can get other people to look at and deal with it. And then, the the the biggest compliment you can get is either, a, I really like it, or, b, I really hate it. But either way, it evoked something in a wave of feedback, and you can have a discussion over it, which is better than,

Carol Ventresca [: 00:48:06

yeah.

Ed Zirkle [: 00:48:08

You're just yeah.

Carol Ventresca [: 00:48:09

Yeah. Very, very true. So Many thanks to documentarian, photojournalist, and veteran, Ed Zirkle, for joining us today And helping us to honor our veterans. Listeners, thank you for joining us, and don't forget to check our show notes for on the website For contact information and resources we've discussed today, you can find all this information at looking forward our way.com, And we're looking forward to hearing your feedback on this and any of our podcast episodes.

Ed Zirkle [: 00:48:42

And thank you all for listening to me.