One of the most powerful ways a leader can connect with others is through storytelling. But it can be hard to understand how you apply that to your everyday leadership approach, especially if you’re someone who is number or action orientated.
But storytelling is at the heart of great strategy and is how the most impactful leaders take people with them.
In today’s episode I’m delighted to be talking with Janet Murray, an expert in storytelling and that all-important connection to business strategy.
We talk about:
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One of the most powerful ways a leader can
Lee Griffith:connect with others is through storytelling. But it can be hard
Lee Griffith:to understand how you apply that to your everyday leadership
Lee Griffith:approach, especially if you're someone who is a number or
Lee Griffith:action orientated person. But storytelling is at the heart of
Lee Griffith:great strategy and it's how the most impactful leaders take
Lee Griffith:people with them. I'm Lee Griffith, a communication
Lee Griffith:strategies executive coach and all round champion of leaders
Lee Griffith:who shun the old school stereotypes. I'm here to help
Lee Griffith:you get clear on your strategy, implement some self leadership
Lee Griffith:and connect with those who serve through your communications so
Lee Griffith:that you can deliver improved organizational performance,
Lee Griffith:engagement and reputation sign up to my newsletters to receive
Lee Griffith:even more useful insights into how to be an impactful leader.
Lee Griffith:You can also find out how I can support your organization to
Lee Griffith:better connect with the people it serves. Visit Sunday
Lee Griffith:spies.com To find out more. In today's episode, I'm delighted
Lee Griffith:to be talking with Janet Murray an expert in storytelling and
Lee Griffith:that all important connection to business strategy. Janet is a
Lee Griffith:former journalist and now supports businesses to be more
Lee Griffith:strategic in the content they produce. She's a podcaster,
Lee Griffith:international speaker and creator of the courageous CEO
Lee Griffith:strategic business planning and resource kit. We talk about the
Lee Griffith:role of storytelling in leadership, how you can identify
Lee Griffith:and use the great stories in your organization to connect
Lee Griffith:people with your vision, and how this all fits into your personal
Lee Griffith:communication strategy. Enjoy. So I'm delighted to welcome
Lee Griffith:Janet Murray to this episode of Leaders with Impact podcast.
Lee Griffith:Thank you so much for joining us today.
Unknown:Thanks for having me.
Lee Griffith:I'm going to jump straight in. I think a lot of
Lee Griffith:today's conversation is going to focus around storytelling and
Lee Griffith:the role it has in leadership. And I don't know about the
Lee Griffith:people you've worked, we've I've certainly come across quite a
Lee Griffith:few in my career who've hated the idea of telling stories,
Lee Griffith:because in their mind, they run a serious business. And they
Lee Griffith:think that telling a story is either they need to make
Lee Griffith:something up, or they think it's belittling or dumbing down the
Lee Griffith:kind of really serious stuff that they're trying to achieve.
Lee Griffith:So to kick us off, I'm interested in what you define as
Lee Griffith:storytelling when it comes to that business and leadership
Lee Griffith:context. Well,
Unknown:I think the first thing I would say is a lot of people
Unknown:intellectualize storytelling and people who, for example, sell
Unknown:that as a service to companies. And they can make it into this
Unknown:kind of big thing. Like we're going to teach you about
Unknown:storytelling, and actually overcomplicated. So for me, it's
Unknown:just about being relatable. And it's just about showing up as
Unknown:authentically as you can being you. But obviously, if you're
Unknown:working in a corporate setting, that might be useful as a sort
Unknown:of professional work lens. But I think we've all been to an event
Unknown:and we've listened to someone talk who we can tell they have
Unknown:great expertise, but we're asleep. Within five seconds.
Unknown:We've all been to a meeting at work with somebody who is a
Unknown:leader, but they're not an inspiring leader. And often it
Unknown:comes down to that ability to just be relatable to think about
Unknown:how you can create connection, how you can create common
Unknown:ground, and also how you can be human. So when people talk about
Unknown:storytelling as a thing, I'm kind of like, I don't know how I
Unknown:feel about that. Because, for me, it's just about how can you
Unknown:be more relatable? How can you be more human? How can you show
Unknown:up as you within a professional setting? That doesn't mean
Unknown:airing your dirty washing or sharing your personal secrets,
Unknown:but it's just about like bringing you to the table. Does
Unknown:that make sense? Yeah,
Lee Griffith:it does. And I think as you were talking that I
Lee Griffith:was getting flashbacks of horror of death by PowerPoint, that
Lee Griffith:many people think that that's what they need to do to convey
Lee Griffith:the message. And actually, that isn't what this is about. So is
Lee Griffith:it?
Unknown:Yeah, and even just on that subject itself. I remember,
Unknown:I used to do, I've always I love speaking because my career
Unknown:trajectory has been I was a teacher, then I was a
Unknown:journalist. And then I ended up running my own business. And so
Unknown:I've always been a really confident public speaker. Like I
Unknown:can get up and talk about anything but happy to do that. I
Unknown:think I probably was okay in terms of being engaging, but it
Unknown:wasn't until I actually invested in doing public speaking,
Unknown:training, that I saw the difference between Not even
Unknown:death by PowerPoint, but just like, okay, talking over slides,
Unknown:basically, and someone who could give a polished keynote talk.
Unknown:And if you're working in an organization, that doesn't mean
Unknown:that you have to go off and have public speaker training and then
Unknown:be doing these kind of like earth shattering keynote talks.
Unknown:But one of the key things that I learned about that was not not
Unknown:to use slides, but to use as few slides. It is possible to have a
Unknown:structure to any talk that you give like just things like not
Unknown:starting with Hi, I'm so and so in this talk I'm going to talk
Unknown:about just like getting straight in with a story. Things like you
Unknown:know centering a talk around three relatable stories or
Unknown:anecdotes, not putting text on your slides if you can possibly
Unknown:help her using images or video or even being prepared to talk
Unknown:without slides. And one of my worst things that I when I watch
Unknown:for somebody, and I think it takes away from their authority
Unknown:is when they say the perfect example, actually is to remember
Unknown:during COVID, who's the health guy, their policy adviser to the
Unknown:government, if somebody says, and on my next slide, or the
Unknown:other thing, yeah. Someone says, Don't worry, oh, yeah, I went to
Unknown:a university open day with my daughter. And I was rolling my
Unknown:eyes because the guy who was giving this talk, which was
Unknown:actually great, you know, it was inviting us to, I don't think
Unknown:it's a problem saying it granted University, we were going to
Unknown:have a look around all the medical courses and things and
Unknown:for the students. And for me as well, it was potentially quite
Unknown:an exciting day, we were gonna go and have a look around all
Unknown:the simulated staff. And you know, it was really exciting all
Unknown:these great tech that they use. But the guy who started by
Unknown:saying, Don't worry, I won't keep you very long. Then he kept
Unknown:saying, Don't worry, I've only got one more slide to go. Don't
Unknown:worry. I'm almost finished now. And you sort of think, how could
Unknown:you feel this is actually a really exciting opportunity.
Unknown:Granted, University has got like cutting edge, like we all wanted
Unknown:to be paramedics, nurses and midwives by the end of that
Unknown:event. But that first talk, it was just so unnecessary. It was
Unknown:just like apologetic. And I think that's the thing as well
Unknown:about had that guy opened with the story about when I first
Unknown:arrived, this is what we had. Now we can simulate a full on,
Unknown:you know, just tell us a storytellers about, you know,
Unknown:what's because the place was full of stories. And I think
Unknown:it's just that it's just thinking about things. A lot of
Unknown:people are very apologetic, and that really takes away from your
Unknown:authority. And when you're using slides it and apologizing for
Unknown:using them and apologizing and telling you people don't worry,
Unknown:I've only got well, why do that? Why not just plan a talk? That's
Unknown:more interesting. It's only if that makes sense to you.
Lee Griffith:Yeah. I think certainly some of the leaders
Lee Griffith:that I've worked with in the past, and I've tried to persuade
Lee Griffith:them away from the PowerPoint slides, it's definitely a bit.
Lee Griffith:It's a bit of a niche reference. But it's like the Linus is
Lee Griffith:blanket from the peanuts about this their comfort blanket that
Lee Griffith:you have to have. And they're thinking about all this
Lee Griffith:information they need to convey not about what they want the
Lee Griffith:people to get from the information. Yeah, and
Unknown:actually, the message really should be less is more I
Unknown:used to do a lot of radio and TV training for and I work with a
Unknown:lot of public sector organizations, but also
Unknown:charities and companies. And there's nothing like doing like
Unknown:a TV or radio interview, to really focus you on that exact
Unknown:thing. Because we'd say to people, like, you'll be on for
Unknown:like, I know, a few minutes, you don't have time to do any more
Unknown:than get people to remember one thing that you said, like one
Unknown:key message takeaway. And actually, the best talks that
Unknown:I've seen, for example, are when people don't try and pack it
Unknown:with information. They just leave you with something to take
Unknown:away, there's a message and they leave you with something to go
Unknown:think about now, you know, there might be times when you're
Unknown:having to do a briefing. And, you know, maybe you have to get
Unknown:impart some information. But just thinking about how you
Unknown:might do that, because I'm pretty sure, God, I can't even
Unknown:remember his name that that tells you the fact that I cannot
Unknown:even recall the name of Christianity. That's it. Yeah.
Unknown:Who everyone loves. But I sort of I remember watching that and
Unknown:thinking, I'm sure there's a more engaging way of doing this,
Unknown:which doesn't involve but like you say, it's it's a comfort
Unknown:blanket. But often we're actually, these are people who
Unknown:know their subject are so well, they are so expert, they're so
Unknown:credible, they don't need to rely on it. And actually, if
Unknown:they just planned less, if you plan to cover less and just go
Unknown:actually my objective here is just that people take away a key
Unknown:message like, you know, the Greenwich University example, by
Unknown:key takeaway from looking around was high tech resources,
Unknown:simulation robots, you know, you know, if you remember one thing
Unknown:from that talk, we've got the most cutting edge tech in the
Unknown:country or whatever. That's it, I'm sold. And I think part of
Unknown:the problem with the comfort blanket is also about trying to
Unknown:pack too much content. So if you're planning a talk, or
Unknown:you're doing report or even in a meeting, and maybe just finding
Unknown:alternative ways to convey that, so you don't have to stand in
Unknown:front of a PowerPoint, but that's bigger than the actual
Unknown:communication itself, isn't it that's bigger than the actual
Unknown:talk or the meeting or whatever. That's, that's a bigger strategy
Unknown:thing, isn't it?
Lee Griffith:Yeah. I was thinking as you were talking,
Lee Griffith:one of the things I wanted to explore was whether there is a
Lee Griffith:time and place that you should be using storytelling or whether
Lee Griffith:it is an all encompassing but actually some of these examples
Lee Griffith:you've given From the national daily briefings we had during
Lee Griffith:the pandemic team, an Open Data University just shows the
Lee Griffith:breadth and variety that you can bring storytelling and it is
Lee Griffith:really something that can happen in any situation. That scenario.
Unknown:Yeah. And actually, I think what I was trying to say
Unknown:at the beginning is it kind of annoys me when people say
Unknown:they're bringing in somebody to teach them storytelling, like
Unknown:it's an add on add on. But actually, if you want to use
Unknown:storytelling effectively in the communication, it should be
Unknown:embedded through everything you do. So every communication that
Unknown:you send out, you're thinking how can I basically show not
Unknown:tell which again, as somebody from a journalism background,
Unknown:that's, that's kind of what you're trying to do is to show
Unknown:not tell to get things across in lease where possible. But to
Unknown:give you another example, I'm all full of the university open
Unknown:days at moment, I went to another open day University
Unknown:where the communication was not quite so great. So one of the
Unknown:most memorable things from the Greenwich University example
Unknown:was, the head of midwifery just gave this most inspiring talk,
Unknown:had no notes, no slides, shoot, the only props you have was a
Unknown:baby with a some kind of model of a baby or something or a
Unknown:woman with a baby that gave birth or something I can't
Unknown:remember, she had a standing up, like she got a stand up, sit
Unknown:down, I can't remember what she got us to do, which had us
Unknown:moving. But I wanted to be a midwife by the end of it. And I
Unknown:that is like the last thing that I've ever wanted to be. But she
Unknown:basically said it started the talk, she said, if you're in
Unknown:this room, you're meant to be a midwife, you're you've got a
Unknown:vocation. And she said, It's not the kind of thing and I agree
Unknown:that it's not the kind of thing that people generally just think
Unknown:they might try out. She said, You know, if you're in this
Unknown:room, you are a midwife. And even recording that to you, I've
Unknown:got like, tingles, because again, to be sat there with my
Unknown:daughter, and it's such an inspiring woman who was just
Unknown:speaking, she told us a little bit about a background, but not
Unknown:that much. She had one prop is baby, she had us out of our
Unknown:seats doing things. I loved that lady, and I thought I'd love my
Unknown:daughter to come here and study in this, I'm disappointed. I
Unknown:don't think she's gonna go. I just, I was so inspired by her
Unknown:because she was real. And she inspired that she had no, there
Unknown:were no PowerPoints, there was not a PowerPoint in sight, she
Unknown:just spoke, and we could go and look it up, or they could give
Unknown:us a handout or something. But that, for me was an example of
Unknown:kind of threading the storytelling was in some of the
Unknown:stuff there, but all of it, but yeah, for me, it's about every
Unknown:approach every communication, just thinking, how can we? How
Unknown:can we make this accessible and interesting and, and
Unknown:storytelling shouldn't be as something that you do, because
Unknown:somebody's come in and said, let's add some storytelling,
Unknown:it's, I think it's like a strategy or culture, really a
Unknown:culture where we think, How can we be more engaging and not bore
Unknown:each other? In everything we do? Can we make Mindwell? Like, you
Unknown:know, do we have to send out 60 Page briefings? Like, are there
Unknown:different ways we can communicate, that are more
Unknown:engaging? Are we telling an examples, that's something that
Unknown:just going off on a tangent, but AI, so like, obviously, I'm very
Unknown:interested in how people are using AI for communication and
Unknown:content. And I can really see the benefits like chat GPD GGPT,
Unknown:see, oh, God, like, it's like, I haven't had enough coffee yet.
Unknown:Anyway, I can see the benefits. And I've been experimenting and
Unknown:using it with like writing copy for people. And what I think it
Unknown:really helps with is structure. So say, for example, you've got
Unknown:to write a talk on a particular topic, and it you know, might
Unknown:give you 10 bullet points or something and just get you from
Unknown:that blank page. What worries me partly is the style, because
Unknown:that's not going to make it into engaging, copy lying, be boring,
Unknown:and it's going to be stilted, and without personality. The
Unknown:other thing that really bothers me is examples, because it
Unknown:doesn't really give you examples. And if they are,
Unknown:they're not good examples. And all of us, I think, obviously,
Unknown:people have got different learning styles and ways that
Unknown:they access information. But I think most of us, if someone
Unknown:tells us a story, or gives us an example of how, you know,
Unknown:storytelling, threading storytelling through an
Unknown:organization could just be about how can we make sure that we're
Unknown:always using examples? We're not just, you know, how can we show
Unknown:somebody like the head of midwifery with a baby? And the
Unknown:problem was, how can we show someone something even in
Unknown:training, when I'm training, delivering training? And maybe
Unknown:I'm mentoring someone else's delivering training? I'd be
Unknown:like, instead of giving someone information, how can you help
Unknown:them to discover that for themselves? So so instead of
Unknown:saying, This is what you need to learn, how can you set up that
Unknown:training or learning opportunity? So that people are
Unknown:like, oh, right, okay. And that for me storytelling as well. So
Unknown:instead of giving information, sharing case studies and saying
Unknown:and asking people, What did you notice about that? What was
Unknown:different about that? So storytelling for me isn't just
Unknown:about, hey, I'm going to have a talk that's got a story in it.
Unknown:storytelling can also be about how you even like if you're
Unknown:doing your annual report, or you're, you know, sort of making
Unknown:it a boring annual report like everybody else does. How about
Unknown:doing something fun with case studies or how about telling
Unknown:personal stories or whatever? Is that kind of making sense in
Unknown:terms of, yes,
Lee Griffith:the thing that you said around let's add
Lee Griffith:storytelling. I mean, I, in my kind of past corporate life, I
Lee Griffith:had a chief exec, who, every presentation or everything that
Lee Griffith:we wrote for him, he was, he was always like, you need to throw
Lee Griffith:an example or a story. And we used to struggle with this,
Lee Griffith:because they were our stories, not his stories. And I was
Lee Griffith:trying to encourage him to take responsibility, in his own way
Lee Griffith:of sourcing the stories that connect with where he wants to
Lee Griffith:go, and what he's trying to convey. And if he doesn't, if he
Lee Griffith:hasn't seen and heard it, and felt it himself, it just felt
Lee Griffith:really artificial for us to have a database of examples. Because
Lee Griffith:this, there's something that's someone else's story. I'd be
Lee Griffith:interested in your views on that, and how, how much
Lee Griffith:responsibility leaders should be taking? I suppose. So
Unknown:are you able to give an example of you know, without
Unknown:being too specific, but But you know, like, you'd be say, right,
Unknown:we're working on this, whatever. And, yeah, sort of a generic if
Unknown:you don't want to sort of give too much away. So
Lee Griffith:it'd be it would be things like you'd be writing,
Lee Griffith:it may be an all staff briefing on an update of where we've got
Lee Griffith:to tea with strategy stuff, for example, and it'd be like, I
Lee Griffith:need a story in here. And you're like, Okay, well, that's fine.
Lee Griffith:Or it could be Annual General Meeting. So you know, review of
Lee Griffith:the year, but it was the, I suppose the challenge would be
Lee Griffith:is if you just feel like I've got this formula in the way that
Lee Griffith:I want to present, I need a story. And then I, I'm gonna
Lee Griffith:then put loads of stats and detailing around it, trying to
Lee Griffith:think of how to explain it, you're, you're not being
Lee Griffith:authentic, because it's not your story, if, you know, I mean, so.
Lee Griffith:So it's someone who's can be naturally gifted in
Lee Griffith:understanding the stories and leading with a story versus
Lee Griffith:someone who's perhaps shoehorning an example in feel
Lee Griffith:they have to tell a story.
Unknown:So what, what would you sort of what would what would
Unknown:you have wanted them to do instead, I think
Lee Griffith:my personal view is, I think there's something
Lee Griffith:about a leader taking responsibility for their
Lee Griffith:strategy and what they're trying to convey. And for them to be
Lee Griffith:engaging in the organization, or the kind of what the
Lee Griffith:organization is doing to see that strategy in action, and
Lee Griffith:therefore being able to source their own stories rather than
Lee Griffith:someone. Yeah, and handing it to them.
Unknown:So was your third beef, not your beef, but your your
Unknown:challenge? Was it around kind of like, so they would have been
Unknown:very much probably the stuff in some of the stuff in the Annual
Unknown:General Report, you wouldn't have been involved in some of
Unknown:those meetings or chairs, or whatever. And so they were then
Unknown:expecting you to go and kind of always like, find people talk to
Unknown:them, find out about it, or whatever. And whereas what would
Unknown:have worked better for you, do you think in terms of because
Unknown:because it sounds like the right intention was there the
Unknown:intention was to bring things to life. But what would have made
Unknown:that easier for you to do doing?
Lee Griffith:I think it was more a case of they wanted a
Lee Griffith:story, but they were never quite sure what the story was going to
Lee Griffith:illustrate. You know, they felt they needed a story to connect.
Lee Griffith:So they understood conceptually, the importance of storytelling.
Lee Griffith:Yeah, they didn't understand that it needed to be their
Lee Griffith:stories and told in their language and being able to link
Lee Griffith:it back to the bigger picture
Unknown:stuff. Yeah. So I've just tried things like that. So
Unknown:if I just said it better. But if I didn't know, could you give an
Unknown:example of something going to? Like, would it be something
Unknown:quite dried and annual report that they because because
Unknown:obviously, annual reports aren't normally dry? Because they're
Unknown:about what you've been doing, aren't they? And they've been
Unknown:about the impact that you've been having and who you've been
Unknown:working with? And how you've been working or whatever? What?
Unknown:Yeah, what what sort of things might they be asking, don't find
Unknown:YOUR Story on there. So an example
Lee Griffith:so so you've got an organizational strategy, and
Lee Griffith:you've got these you're usually in organizations, far more
Lee Griffith:priorities than than they should have? Yeah, like, right. Well,
Lee Griffith:where's the stories to say that this is the priorities in
Lee Griffith:action? I suppose my argument is, the leaders that have the
Lee Griffith:most impact, have the ones that are seeking out those stories
Lee Griffith:organically as they go about the business to test. Is it working?
Unknown:Yeah. So they'd be telling you, oh, I've seen this
Unknown:really great thing. Yeah. Yeah. And what sort of thing would be
Unknown:like an example of an organizational structure or I
Unknown:can remember what you said, it said, it sounded quite dry.
Unknown:Example have like a story they might just pick up or something
Unknown:they might pick up along the way that I
Lee Griffith:mean, I'm thinking back to my NHS days, and it
Lee Griffith:would be the types of stories that connected. So I'm thinking
Lee Griffith:about one that I used to use quite often, which was we were
Lee Griffith:making changes to our community services. And a lot of the
Lee Griffith:presentations that people were doing was around money,
Lee Griffith:finances, logistics, and the kind of technical behind the
Lee Griffith:scenes of why we're making the changes. And I cut through it
Lee Griffith:all, because I went and visited one of the sites where we were
Lee Griffith:doing that kind of new transformational change to some
Lee Griffith:of our community services. And I spoke with this elderly woman
Lee Griffith:who had been visited by a community nurse. And the nurse
Lee Griffith:just identified, she needed a different toilet seat in our
Lee Griffith:house. And she was able to talk about how much independence it
Lee Griffith:gave her by having someone come in and recognize and she no
Lee Griffith:longer felt she was she was in her 90s. But she felt like she
Lee Griffith:was in her 70s. But she, but this woman gave her back this
Lee Griffith:independence because they randomize needed. And that was
Lee Griffith:the nub of why we were making the types of changes we were
Lee Griffith:making. That
Unknown:is a great example of storytelling, the responsibility
Unknown:can always be passed to communications. Whereas if
Unknown:you've got to see that comes in and goes, Ah, I've just been out
Unknown:to visit this great project, because that's what a CEO is
Unknown:doing, aren't they? Yes, in these things? Or maybe they say,
Unknown:can we have a weekly meeting where I tell you, yeah, where
Unknown:I've been, like, what have been who have been talking to, and
Unknown:maybe you can just keep her, you know, keep a diary of, of what
Unknown:so so then maybe not necessarily write them off as case studies,
Unknown:because that seems a bit of a waste of time. But it almost
Unknown:like, I don't know that they're just you're just keeping it a
Unknown:bit of a diary of log of what they've been doing. And if you
Unknown:need to, you can go back to them and find out more we can go
Unknown:direct to the organization, but it feels to me like the right
Unknown:intention was there. But it was just that they were just shoving
Unknown:it on you and expecting you when they were the person that, you
Unknown:know, often that would have actually been or their team
Unknown:like, and again, that was like an organizational thing. Because
Unknown:if you've got not just them, but their you know, C suite team or
Unknown:whatever, who there's a culture whereby, you know, we meet with
Unknown:communications people once a month, or whatever, or we send a
Unknown:bulletin round, you know, they're getting them late, send
Unknown:a bulletin round of like, you know, this is where we've been
Unknown:out to see, this is what we have some photographs, because often
Unknown:they will already have the photographs that, you know, like
Unknown:a diary really of, of what they've been up to, then,
Unknown:because I've certainly seen it in organizations where people
Unknown:are made to write case studies. And I'm like, well, kind of
Unknown:what's the point of that? If you just know that you've got a
Unknown:treasure trove of Does that make sense? Or does it, you know, do
Unknown:treasure trove of stuff that you can just go okay, what was that
Unknown:that thing that he did? Or she did or? And not just them, but
Unknown:the you know, the rest of the senior team? Because that's what
Unknown:people again, that's the stuff that really has an impact, isn't
Unknown:it when you see how people on the ground, if you like, are
Unknown:affected by that? Yeah, the end user has a lot to say, you know,
Unknown:but that's that's exactly it, isn't it? They're the service,
Unknown:they really do demonstrate impact that they I appreciate
Unknown:that it can be hard work when somebody is just shoving it over
Unknown:to you and then expecting you to go and almost like, is that more
Unknown:of a challenge really expecting you to go and do all the digging
Unknown:and find out? And then you've got a million other things to
Unknown:do? No, it's
Lee Griffith:not. It's not even that I mean, nothing
Lee Griffith:communications teams, I suppose it's the distinction, isn't it
Lee Griffith:between? How much responsibility does a leader need to take in
Lee Griffith:their own personal communications, and how they
Lee Griffith:communicate and the style they communicate and the consistency
Lee Griffith:and rhythm that they have? They, you know, of course, they can't
Lee Griffith:be the communications team, you have a corporate communications
Lee Griffith:team for a reason. They've got a job and role to do to represent
Lee Griffith:the organization. But you've got a personal responsibility,
Lee Griffith:particularly if you're chief exec, or in that C suite, to
Lee Griffith:think about how am I connecting the people who work for me, the
Lee Griffith:people who use my services, the people in the communities I
Lee Griffith:serve, that I can end them with the strategy that we're trying
Lee Griffith:to achieve? Yes, that can't be devolved to a corporate
Lee Griffith:function. Because you you're you've got to inspire and lead
Lee Griffith:people. Yeah.
Unknown:And this is an interesting thing, which I've
Unknown:learned, almost as a business owner, but also translates the
Unknown:other way. But so somebody was approached me now back in the
Unknown:old days, if someone so I think I've got a really good example,
Unknown:if you have a better name, who is that? If someone was to
Unknown:approach me and say, Could you come and do some stories, some
Unknown:work on our organization with storytelling? Could you come in
Unknown:and do a series of training days? I'd be like, I can, but
Unknown:I'm going to have to quote you to do some strategy work because
Unknown:what we really need to understand is that this is not a
Unknown:bolt on is I would do the same immediate training now as well.
Unknown:With media training, it's slightly different because you
Unknown:can give people skills that the next time next week when they
Unknown:get caught by radio for you can but even then having to think
Unknown:about where it fits in. And what to say yes to and no to there's
Unknown:there's a bigger piece of strategy work to do. I'll set
Unknown:you up there to help with, but actually, nowadays, I would
Unknown:probably say Well, yes, I can do that. up, what we need to do
Unknown:first is a piece of work to see where this is going to fit in
Unknown:elsewhere. Because what we don't want to do is for me to come in
Unknown:and deliver some training and then everyone goes home with
Unknown:spiritual training, and then the CEO starts telling everyone they
Unknown:have to do it. But actually, there's no strategy for how
Unknown:that's going to be disseminated like how, you know, creating,
Unknown:like you said that almost like that line between lines of
Unknown:communication, which documents so you're going to do in it,
Unknown:because you can't do it all at once. Currently, if you decided
Unknown:you're going to thread storytelling through everything,
Unknown:you know, and the Alright, now we have to in every report,
Unknown:actually, it probably needs to be a phase thing, doesn't it? So
Unknown:we'll actually we'll we'll start with this. These types, you
Unknown:know, maybe we'll start with our newsletter, external, maybe then
Unknown:we'll start you know, so actually, it's like a three year
Unknown:plan, isn't it, if you're gonna do something like reading
Unknown:storytelling, that's a whole change. And it's not something
Unknown:that can just be fixed in in a couple of days. Example, I've
Unknown:got a slightly off set of it's kind of it's about, which I
Unknown:think happens in public sector organizations sometimes and not
Unknown:for profits, investing in something without thinking about
Unknown:the bigger strategy, hastened like top down. So try think
Unknown:about, it's been diplomatic now. I was approached to turn up and
Unknown:do some copywriting training for ZDNet just happened to be a
Unknown:university. And it's brilliant. I went to book me for like loads
Unknown:of it. And it was like writing for the web. And I was like,
Unknown:Yeah, great. That sounds good. When I got there, oh, my God, I
Unknown:was greeted by loads of angry people who basically what this
Unknown:University have done is they'd hired an advertising agency to
Unknown:make a style guide. And brand guidelines probably cost a lot
Unknown:of money. And they decided that all non communication staff were
Unknown:now going to have to upload their own content to the
Unknown:website. And they hadn't communicated that to anybody.
Unknown:That you know, I only was realizing this as I was there in
Unknown:the middle of it. And people were angry with me and I was I
Unknown:don't even work here. And so they paid for me to this
Unknown:training, teaching people how to write for the web, people didn't
Unknown:know that they were suddenly going to be required to read the
Unknown:writing as communication, people can get quite self conscious.
Unknown:And so I had all these angry people with pitchforks who were
Unknown:really angry, also about the amount of money that had clearly
Unknown:been spent on this advertising agency. And it seemed to me like
Unknown:that bigger piece hadn't been done. So okay, right, well,
Unknown:we're making this change, it was probably an efficiency decision.
Unknown:We're making this change. And it is going to impact the people in
Unknown:the organization. How are we going to implement that? And
Unknown:what's the strategy you're going to be? And how are we going to
Unknown:make a case for this for why this is a good idea. And we're
Unknown:sure people, and again, I feel like that's the thing with
Unknown:storytelling, it's one of those things, you could just go, Hey,
Unknown:this would be really fun. And let's have some fun learning
Unknown:about this thing. But actually an issue really thinking about
Unknown:how that's going to be implemented into your
Unknown:organization, how the leadership's going to what's the
Unknown:word, I'm looking for champion that or even that is not going
Unknown:to work or it's even going to upset people. Back in that
Unknown:example. It's one
Lee Griffith:of the things that you've I suppose really majored
Lee Griffith:on I've noticed over the last year is this, almost, and you've
Lee Griffith:said it, I think in this interview about less is more so
Lee Griffith:you don't you don't encourage people to talk for talking sake,
Lee Griffith:you position, the story in line with delivering strategy. That's
Lee Griffith:the thing that's that drives the types of stories that that you
Lee Griffith:tell if a leader is thinking about their personal strategy,
Lee Griffith:and what that content strategy to connect people to to their
Lee Griffith:business strategy, I suppose is where's their starting point?
Lee Griffith:How do they something
Unknown:I've been thinking about? What are not thinking
Unknown:about I've actually been creating content about is
Unknown:thought leadership content. And because I think sometimes people
Unknown:who are successful and in leadership positions, they can
Unknown:almost be a bit sniffy about content and say, oh, you know,
Unknown:there's funny influences going on Tik Tok, or LinkedIn or the
Unknown:one I often hear is, like, old telling people, they had a
Unknown:banana for breakfast, which I don't think anyone would ever do
Unknown:anyway. But I almost feel like can be a bit of a snobbery about
Unknown:content, and actually in being snobby about it and thinking
Unknown:it's all fluff, you're missing a really good opportunity to
Unknown:connect with people. So I encourage people to think that
Unknown:this is an opportunity for thought leadership. And it's an
Unknown:opportunity to show up and connect with people but actually
Unknown:be to do thought leadership, you have to, you have to be
Unknown:thoughtful, you have to think about what it is that you know,
Unknown:you're not just randomly firing off stuff, you actually think
Unknown:about what it is that you want to convey. And so I started to
Unknown:think about how if I was going to, because I kind of think I
Unknown:know what that is, but if I was good at almost like try and
Unknown:break it down and get somebody to understand how to come up
Unknown:with a thought leadership strategy, rather than just a
Unknown:content strategy showing up it actually again requires a bit of
Unknown:strategy work to think about, well, what you know what, what
Unknown:is it I'm going to show up as a person brand because also I
Unknown:think that leaders of companies they are a personal brand
Unknown:whether they like it or not, and yeah, people will make a
Unknown:decision, even things like I had to go into this, I had to make a
Unknown:complaint to an NGO, which has been quite ongoing. And it went
Unknown:up to Chief Exec level. And the fact I've got a personal reply
Unknown:from there's a lot, there's a lot, there's not good in that
Unknown:organization, but getting a personal reply from the Chief
Unknown:Exec. That sort of stuff is strategic, isn't it? Because
Unknown:it's like, okay, didn't have to reply to me, but clearly, that's
Unknown:their policy. And that's a personal brand thing, isn't it,
Unknown:you know, am I the kind of chief exec, that at a certain point, I
Unknown:will send an email to somebody and acknowledge them, even if
Unknown:I'm not personally dealing with it, you know, sort of things. So
Unknown:things that there's four areas that I've think about, so the
Unknown:first one is expertise, so you know, what expertise you have,
Unknown:and getting that across, people are normally okay with, because
Unknown:they, you know, they're normally that they do have expertise in
Unknown:something and, you know, they, they do know about their
Unknown:organization, or their sector or whatever. And the next one, so I
Unknown:think having expertise is not enough. So you can be you can be
Unknown:really knowledgeable about something, you can have written
Unknown:all the books, all the papers, you can be amazing, but you're
Unknown:still boring as hell so so that on its own isn't enough, you
Unknown:know, so you do need to demonstrate expertise. The bit
Unknown:that really makes a difference for me is there's a few bits, so
Unknown:is that when you're showing up online, or the speaking or
Unknown:you're publishing content, that you're demonstrating the ability
Unknown:to, to give insights or analysis or to, to actually, you've got
Unknown:something to say like you that you're going to be a thought
Unknown:leader, I always think about as leadership. So somebody that I
Unknown:would follow online, a personal brand, you know, chief exec will
Unknown:be somebody who's showing me what I need to care about, you
Unknown:know, in the next, you know, the, here's some really
Unknown:interesting things we need to be looking at. These are some
Unknown:things that perhaps we need to be cautious about somebody who
Unknown:isn't just spouting off corporate jargon at me,
Lee Griffith:and you see, so many chief execs that think,
Lee Griffith:getting online, it's just read retweeting or re sharing content
Lee Griffith:that the kind of corporate organization is doing. And
Lee Griffith:actually, it's more than that, isn't it? is adding your own
Lee Griffith:commentary on top of it. Yeah.
Unknown:And obviously, I absolutely understand all the
Unknown:challenges around that, which is why this needs strategy, you
Unknown:need to sit down and go, okay, like, let's have a think about
Unknown:some of the topics that I feel okay, that I feel I can add
Unknown:analysis on, think about, let's have a think about some topics,
Unknown:maybe where I don't, I don't want to go or, you know, I don't
Unknown:want to get involved in that conversation. But it is a
Unknown:choice, and you're in control. But yeah, if you're just
Unknown:retweeting stuff, like, who cares? And how is that showing
Unknown:that you're a leader, you're not demonstrating any kind of
Unknown:leadership. So for me, it's about some kind of analysis
Unknown:insight, it can and it can be really just pointing people, I
Unknown:hear some really interesting things I thought about that
Unknown:government report, or, you know, that this is going to be
Unknown:discussed in parliament today. This is really interesting,
Unknown:because, you know, there was a way to do this. I think people
Unknown:always think that you, you can't do this without getting yourself
Unknown:in hot water, there are actually ways that you can do this, where
Unknown:you're just saying, Hey, this is really interesting, worth a
Unknown:look. And someone who's interested in that sector, or
Unknown:it's funny, because my, which I think that has to be diplomatic
Unknown:now that somebody I know is working for an organization that
Unknown:just got a new chief exec in the kind of sports arena. And I
Unknown:would expect somebody like that to be talking about sport and
Unknown:what's happening, perhaps not engaging in some of the more,
Unknown:the more kind of controversial parts of it, but actually, even
Unknown:so, like, it doesn't need to be thought about because there are
Unknown:some quite, you know,
Lee Griffith:if it matters to their staff, or communities.
Lee Griffith:Yeah, absolutely, I should be. But I think I'd
Unknown:love to pick that you say just retweeting not willing
Unknown:to share with any kind of views on anything or any insight. The
Unknown:other thing as well, I mean, most organizations will have
Unknown:this is about values. So actually, I think, obviously, an
Unknown:organization will have its values as an organization, but
Unknown:what about that, chief exec, like, there will be things that
Unknown:that chief exec, perhaps particularly cares about, you
Unknown:know, or particularly, has strong values about, and that
Unknown:might be something that's really part of their personal brand,
Unknown:you know, in their spare time, I don't know, they really
Unknown:committed to the environment, and they're going off at
Unknown:weekends or whatever, and doing things, you know, to, or maybe
Unknown:animal cruelty, or I don't know, but but actually, not just not
Unknown:just saying, here's a picture of me walking my dog at the
Unknown:weekend, but actually just thinking really carefully, what
Unknown:are some of the things that that I do that are me the books I
Unknown:read the things I do in my spare time, you know, the things that
Unknown:I support, which I could be sharing, talking about to give
Unknown:people a bit more of an insight into me but also aligned with
Unknown:the with the company's values and you know that this can be
Unknown:done. But it just involves strategy and it involves sitting
Unknown:down with the communication students I often find as far as
Unknown:you say that I sometimes think that leaders should have a lot
Unknown:more respect for communications and media teams and for their
Unknown:expertise. And a problem, I think could be that they think
Unknown:they know better, and they don't, and treating that
Unknown:department as their expert partner, and actually, they can
Unknown:help you, like, they know how to help you navigate this stuff.
Unknown:And then at the other end of the phone, like use them. And so I
Unknown:think there's that sort of side of it as well. The other part of
Unknown:it is, is credibility, which I think organizations, some
Unknown:organizations do really well. But if you're saying, you know,
Unknown:we're the leader in whatever, or we, you know, will show us, you
Unknown:know, show us in your content, like, show us why you've got the
Unknown:best tech in that sector for that subject area or whatever,
Unknown:like, share with us some case studies, or some testimonials,
Unknown:we can actually understand because they're written in plain
Unknown:language, or, you know, tell us that story about the lady in the
Unknown:toilet seat, or whatever, I would love to see, like you
Unknown:mentioned about chief execs, you know, I want to see if they've
Unknown:been out to, to visit people in project, see how things are
Unknown:going, you know, I want to hear about that. It's they've been at
Unknown:a meeting with other vice chancellors, and they've been
Unknown:talking about something important, or they've been, you
Unknown:know, involved in some policy, whatever. That's thought
Unknown:leadership. That's it. But I think there's, there's very few
Unknown:chief execs that I can think of that do that or even leaders,
Unknown:you know, they're, they're terrified. And it would just
Unknown:that kind of, does that sort of line up with your experience?
Lee Griffith:I think so in your point around credibility is
Lee Griffith:really interesting. And key one, because I think we see this with
Lee Griffith:things like diversity and inclusion, and other initiatives
Lee Griffith:where it is feels really tokenistic. And they might issue
Lee Griffith:a statement or say, you know, I'm supporting this day. And
Lee Griffith:then they don't do anything else to show during the year that
Lee Griffith:actually they're demonstrating their integrity of taking
Lee Griffith:action. And I think men can be a real challenge, because for some
Lee Griffith:organizations, I think those four the four points you've
Lee Griffith:given around, how do you demonstrate thought leadership
Lee Griffith:are really important. I talk a lot with the clients I work with
Lee Griffith:around how do you build, I call it your leadership brand.
Lee Griffith:Because people do feel like personal brand can feel a bit
Lee Griffith:like I'm going to be a tick tock influence. But the leadership
Lee Griffith:brand is how you get your next job. It's how you get the
Lee Griffith:promotion in your organization, or how you stand out from the
Lee Griffith:crowd of other people. It's that lien that differentiates you.
Lee Griffith:And if you're not being strategic in how you focus on
Lee Griffith:that, then no one else is going to do it for you. Yeah,
Unknown:yeah. And I just think a lot of it is there's a lot of
Unknown:fear. And I understand this fear about saying the wrong thing, or
Unknown:being canceled or whatever. But actually, most organizations,
Unknown:they've got a comms team, they've got mediating, they've
Unknown:got people who have experienced in crisis comms, who were just
Unknown:at the other end of the phone, like, who will be there to
Unknown:advise and, and also to help you, when you make mistakes? You
Unknown:know, I think about this for my journalism days, it's usually
Unknown:things that are not thought through, if you've really
Unknown:thought to yourself, Okay, so isn't things I want to talk
Unknown:about these and things that actually I don't think are
Unknown:relevant, you know, you've got your guidance, if you sort of
Unknown:mean about that. But I think often, I'm not even going there.
Unknown:And unless it's beneath me, like, Oh, those and I made a
Unknown:point the other day that about my own personal values, because
Unknown:I think about this a lot, and I've done some training, you
Unknown:know, I'm more concerned with impacts and being important if
Unknown:certain means so, yeah, if your focus is on, I want to make
Unknown:impact, both personally, but also as the organization, and
Unknown:that's the lens that you think about what you're going to share
Unknown:and how you're going to share it. How can anyone think that
Unknown:you're just trying to be important? If your focus is
Unknown:okay, well, when I when I do share or comment or whatever,
Unknown:it's, I want to be making an impact. So I'm not just here to
Unknown:be important or to be famous, or whatever, like that side of it,
Unknown:I think is important as well, it well, that
Lee Griffith:goes to the point you made at the very beginning
Lee Griffith:around this authenticity. So if you truly believe in something,
Lee Griffith:and it's its core to your values and the things that you want to
Lee Griffith:challenge and champion, then it's going to come across
Lee Griffith:authentically, when you talk about if you're doing it because
Lee Griffith:you think you need to be seen to be doing it, people aren't going
Lee Griffith:to buy in, and then they're not going to trust you. So that's it
Lee Griffith:again, it goes to your core strategy, your values and how
Lee Griffith:they work in harmony with each other. Yeah,
Unknown:exactly. And I say, um, you know, I do see, in
Unknown:particular with nonprofits, and then also public sector, there's
Unknown:a lot of pressure at the moment, I think, to think a certain way
Unknown:and to hold a certain line. But actually, I feel like there's an
Unknown:opportunity there for for people to be brave and people to kind
Unknown:of stand out a little bit more, but that's probably a whole
Unknown:other conversation.
Lee Griffith:So if someone's listening to this and thinks
Lee Griffith:that actually they need to be doing more of this in their day
Lee Griffith:to day leadership, it's a gap that they want to try and lean
Lee Griffith:into and close a little bit. What What would you say was the
Lee Griffith:ingredients to help them think through how they start to
Lee Griffith:incorporate storytelling, and thinking more strategically
Lee Griffith:around how they connect it to what they're doing in the day to
Lee Griffith:day, something
Unknown:I often recommend people do. And this is
Unknown:regardless of what they do is they're kind of like, how does
Unknown:this visibility thing work? Like, why is it that that CEO,
Unknown:everybody follows them? Everyone engages them, like go and look
Unknown:at what is it they're doing what they're talking about, and maybe
Unknown:benchmark them against this, you know, expertise, analysis,
Unknown:social proof, or credibility and values? Like what is it and
Unknown:actually analyze them? And have a look, what is it they're
Unknown:doing? What are they talking about? Why do people show up and
Unknown:listen to what this person has to say, and you will start to
Unknown:see, this isn't vanilla, you know, these are people who've
Unknown:got, they've got something to say, they've got insights,
Unknown:they've got opinions, but they're genuinely not stupid,
Unknown:you know, they're not just throwing out anything, they're
Unknown:showing up authentically. But also, they're, it's strategic,
Unknown:it's been thought through. But the other thing I would say, if
Unknown:you're working in an organization is to use your
Unknown:media, or comms professionals, and to really mind the
Unknown:expertise, a lot of teams will have really experienced people,
Unknown:but also that some of them will have X journalists who, you
Unknown:know, they've got so much that they can bring to help to help
Unknown:you with this. And books and you know, if you're working in
Unknown:organization, and you've got the resources there, if not invest
Unknown:in, I would recommend investing in booking out some time to take
Unknown:a couple of days hours just to go and actually really think
Unknown:this through and, and also, I think there's a business case
Unknown:for this in terms of the organization, because if your
Unknown:CEO is somebody who's is a thought leader, and people
Unknown:follow, they want to hear what they've got to say they want to
Unknown:invite them to the parliamentary do so want to get them involved
Unknown:on steering groups and working parties and the government or
Unknown:whatever it might be, you know, whatever your this is worth
Unknown:investing in, it's worth investing time, because the
Unknown:impact in terms of things like if you're a public sector
Unknown:organization, or your charity funding, like this stuff is
Unknown:important, you know, and it's not silly, like, I've been
Unknown:working on a project recently, which has to do with winning
Unknown:awards, I have to say, before us, before I started doing us,
Unknown:again, disappointed we didn't, you know, I was I was actually
Unknown:kind of thinking, let's use a whole lot of effort. And what
Unknown:I've learned through that experiences, but actually being
Unknown:an award judge or being you know, in that it's the
Unknown:connections, it's the, it's the network that you're building.
Unknown:But actually, this does need some thinking through and it
Unknown:needs some some time. And you know, it's it's, it's the kind
Unknown:of thing that you probably need to go away and have an away day,
Unknown:in a way with your team or whatever. But the key thing is
Unknown:that it isn't just something that's talked about for two
Unknown:days, it's actually turns into a strategy, and you get help where
Unknown:you need it. On a practical level, I don't know what you
Unknown:think labor probably wouldn't just advise a CEO just to kind
Unknown:of jump on and start posting like, you know, I would
Unknown:definitely recommend to some thinking time and some expert
Unknown:advice and some strategic advice. I don't think people
Unknown:should be afraid. But I think one of the things that makes you
Unknown:less afraid is having done that planning strategy that expert
Unknown:support. Is that Is that helpful? Or are you looking for
Unknown:me to be sort of more like, here's the type of posts that
Unknown:you can do whatever?
Lee Griffith:No, no, I think that's really helpful. Thank
Lee Griffith:you. My final question is, what's the one bit of advice
Lee Griffith:about content strategy, leadership strategy,
Lee Griffith:storytelling that you would love every leader to pay attention
Lee Griffith:to? Well,
Unknown:so I've had two. So the first one I've already alluded
Unknown:to, is kind of embedding a culture where you're always
Unknown:we're communicating clearly where communication and finding
Unknown:ways to communicate everything that you do is a priority. Even
Unknown:if you have to bring it in stages, even if it's something
Unknown:that you have to do in a three or five year plan is that
Unknown:bringing storytelling or bringing things to life is
Unknown:something I feel that you should be part of your long term plan
Unknown:to bring that on board? It's not an adult. Now, I can't actually
Unknown:remember the question that you asked me what was it again?
Unknown:Because I know I had a second point. And I thought, but I do
Unknown:want to say that as well.
Lee Griffith:What's the one bit of advice that you'd love every
Lee Griffith:leader to pay attention to? Yeah,
Unknown:so the first one is about just really giving this
Unknown:the attention that it deserves. And instead of making it a bolt
Unknown:on, how can we embed, not storytelling itself, but the
Unknown:spirit behind storytelling, which is about being authentic,
Unknown:which is about being relatable, like when you use you know, you
Unknown:said about your boss asking you to find examples? I guess the
Unknown:better question would be, how can you make this more relatable
Unknown:to people so that people actually read it? Yeah. And that
Unknown:might be about going out finding an example. But it might be,
Unknown:there might be another way it might be reducing it by half. Or
Unknown:it might be like publishing a short summary and not making
Unknown:people read something that long. You know, it's about how can we
Unknown:make it more relatable? How can we make it feel more authentic?
Unknown:So I think that's probably the key thing. I think I've actually
Unknown:forgotten which is really helpful, isn't it? But that's
Unknown:probably quite authentic, isn't it? Yeah. And that But the other
Unknown:thing actually, is, that probably is, is about not being
Unknown:afraid not to be perfect like, because I think a lot of leaders
Unknown:in all walks of life, they're so afraid of like not doing
Unknown:everything perfectly. And actually one of the things that
Unknown:can really help people relate to you and connect with you is not
Unknown:being perfect is getting to the end of an interview and
Unknown:forgetting what you were asked or whatever. And saying, Sorry,
Unknown:as well, when you've got things wrong, apologizing to people,
Unknown:when you when you got things wrong, I think that happened.
Unknown:Huge, huge impact. Because perfection can be quite
Unknown:intimidating. It can also make you feel quite removed from
Unknown:people. And it's harder for people to connect with you, if
Unknown:they think you're just this person Ivory Tower, who never
Unknown:gets anything wrong, or if they do doesn't ever own up to it, or
Unknown:whatever. And just thinking about how you can turn up all
Unknown:the things that are you. So I think a lot of Chief execs with
Unknown:it, they tend to think I don't know, they might have interests
Unknown:or pets or holidays or whatever. And they think all of that is
Unknown:just like nobody's interested in that. Actually, that's the part
Unknown:that everybody probably is really quite interested in. Or
Unknown:the fact that you've, I don't know, you've just bought a
Unknown:caravan or something, I should be more interested in that
Unknown:stuff. And as long as you've thought it through, and you've
Unknown:thought about how that fits into your brand. And you're not just
Unknown:like, you know, firing off stuff willy nilly. People want to know
Unknown:about you, they want to know about the person. And I think
Unknown:leaning into that more and not being afraid of it, I think
Unknown:would be the other thing. Yeah.
Lee Griffith:I mean, you said this right in the beginning, but
Lee Griffith:showing that you're human, I think it's really important to
Lee Griffith:build that connection and that trust. And I think to your point
Lee Griffith:about not being perfect, I think that's such an important thing.
Lee Griffith:Because I think if you are striving for perfection, and
Lee Griffith:only demonstrating when things go right, you're actually
Lee Griffith:creating a closed culture in your organization where people
Lee Griffith:will be feel fearful of failure, and fearful of speaking up when
Lee Griffith:things go wrong, and all of that. So actually, you're having
Lee Griffith:a detrimental effect on the organizational impact if you're
Lee Griffith:only showing, yes, perfect light.
Unknown:And also as one last thing about saying sorry, is if
Unknown:you are gonna say sorry, but you have to be authentic with saying
Unknown:sorry, like you see organizations and they mess up
Unknown:and how they deal with it. And you can tell when they're not
Unknown:really sorry. Yeah. And you can tell when they don't really
Unknown:think they've messed up, but they feel I've got to, you know,
Unknown:sometimes being authentic could be about not saying you're
Unknown:sorry, as well, you know, saying no, we're not sorry. I was
Unknown:really impressed by a university. That fact, a member
Unknown:of staff who resigned and said, we don't think this person
Unknown:should have resigned, that this is what we feel universities are
Unknown:about, I have huge respect for that. Because that's authentic,
Unknown:it might not sit with everybody. But again, if the organization
Unknown:knows who they are, what their values are, and that's aligned
Unknown:with the leader that makes you really strong, I think. Yeah,
Lee Griffith:completely. Well, thank you so much. I've
Lee Griffith:absolutely loved to have in this discussion. If people want to
Lee Griffith:connect with you online and get more of your advice and
Lee Griffith:guidance, where can they get in touch or follow you?
Unknown:I think for listeners of this podcast, I think
Unknown:LinkedIn is probably so just Janet Murray on LinkedIn. I do
Unknown:have a website JanetMurray.co.uk, but LinkedIn
Unknown:might be a good place to start
Lee Griffith:perfect. And I'll put all the details in the show
Lee Griffith:notes. Thank you again for your time.
Unknown:Thank you.
Lee Griffith:If you enjoyed this episode, please let me know
Lee Griffith:on Apple podcasts or on app of choice and drop me a line over
Lee Griffith:on LinkedIn. You can find me at Lee Griffith. I'll be back with
Lee Griffith:the next episode in two weeks time. So in the meantime,
Lee Griffith:remember to sign up to my newsletter at Sundayskies.com
Lee Griffith:for further insights on how to lead with impact. Until next time!