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(E13) The business storytelling expert Janet Murray
Episode 1319th February 2024 • Leaders with impact • Lee Griffith
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One of the most powerful ways a leader can connect with others is through storytelling. But it can be hard to understand how you apply that to your everyday leadership approach, especially if you’re someone who is number or action orientated.

But storytelling is at the heart of great strategy and is how the most impactful leaders take people with them.

In today’s episode I’m delighted to be talking with Janet Murray, an expert in storytelling and that all-important connection to business strategy.

We talk about:

  • what storytelling in leadership really means
  • the problem with powerpoint presentations
  • how to embed storytelling into your communications
  • the role of AI
  • strategic storytelling
  • thought leadership content
  • developing your own content plan
  • credibility
  • leadership brands
  • how to get started

Resources and helpful links

If you want to transform your leadership impact book a free consultation call with me

About leaders with impact

Want to know the secret of great leaders? In Leaders with impact we'll be exploring what makes an impactful leader; sharing stories of success and strategies that set them apart.

If you are ambitious for your organisation but are struggling to identify what you can do differently as a leader to deliver the right improvements, then hit subscribe to learn how you can get clear on your strategy, implement some self-leadership and connect with those you serve.

New episodes are released every fortnight.

Get in touch

If you enjoyed the episode please leave a review on Apple podcasts (or your app of choice) and let me know what you thought on LinkedIn or instagram.

I’ll be back with the next episode in two weeks so in the meantime remember to sign up to my newsletter to get notified of new episodes, guest appearances and further insights on how to lead with impact.

Transcripts

Lee Griffith:

One of the most powerful ways a leader can

Lee Griffith:

connect with others is through storytelling. But it can be hard

Lee Griffith:

to understand how you apply that to your everyday leadership

Lee Griffith:

approach, especially if you're someone who is a number or

Lee Griffith:

action orientated person. But storytelling is at the heart of

Lee Griffith:

great strategy and it's how the most impactful leaders take

Lee Griffith:

people with them. I'm Lee Griffith, a communication

Lee Griffith:

strategies executive coach and all round champion of leaders

Lee Griffith:

who shun the old school stereotypes. I'm here to help

Lee Griffith:

you get clear on your strategy, implement some self leadership

Lee Griffith:

and connect with those who serve through your communications so

Lee Griffith:

that you can deliver improved organizational performance,

Lee Griffith:

engagement and reputation sign up to my newsletters to receive

Lee Griffith:

even more useful insights into how to be an impactful leader.

Lee Griffith:

You can also find out how I can support your organization to

Lee Griffith:

better connect with the people it serves. Visit Sunday

Lee Griffith:

spies.com To find out more. In today's episode, I'm delighted

Lee Griffith:

to be talking with Janet Murray an expert in storytelling and

Lee Griffith:

that all important connection to business strategy. Janet is a

Lee Griffith:

former journalist and now supports businesses to be more

Lee Griffith:

strategic in the content they produce. She's a podcaster,

Lee Griffith:

international speaker and creator of the courageous CEO

Lee Griffith:

strategic business planning and resource kit. We talk about the

Lee Griffith:

role of storytelling in leadership, how you can identify

Lee Griffith:

and use the great stories in your organization to connect

Lee Griffith:

people with your vision, and how this all fits into your personal

Lee Griffith:

communication strategy. Enjoy. So I'm delighted to welcome

Lee Griffith:

Janet Murray to this episode of Leaders with Impact podcast.

Lee Griffith:

Thank you so much for joining us today.

Unknown:

Thanks for having me.

Lee Griffith:

I'm going to jump straight in. I think a lot of

Lee Griffith:

today's conversation is going to focus around storytelling and

Lee Griffith:

the role it has in leadership. And I don't know about the

Lee Griffith:

people you've worked, we've I've certainly come across quite a

Lee Griffith:

few in my career who've hated the idea of telling stories,

Lee Griffith:

because in their mind, they run a serious business. And they

Lee Griffith:

think that telling a story is either they need to make

Lee Griffith:

something up, or they think it's belittling or dumbing down the

Lee Griffith:

kind of really serious stuff that they're trying to achieve.

Lee Griffith:

So to kick us off, I'm interested in what you define as

Lee Griffith:

storytelling when it comes to that business and leadership

Lee Griffith:

context. Well,

Unknown:

I think the first thing I would say is a lot of people

Unknown:

intellectualize storytelling and people who, for example, sell

Unknown:

that as a service to companies. And they can make it into this

Unknown:

kind of big thing. Like we're going to teach you about

Unknown:

storytelling, and actually overcomplicated. So for me, it's

Unknown:

just about being relatable. And it's just about showing up as

Unknown:

authentically as you can being you. But obviously, if you're

Unknown:

working in a corporate setting, that might be useful as a sort

Unknown:

of professional work lens. But I think we've all been to an event

Unknown:

and we've listened to someone talk who we can tell they have

Unknown:

great expertise, but we're asleep. Within five seconds.

Unknown:

We've all been to a meeting at work with somebody who is a

Unknown:

leader, but they're not an inspiring leader. And often it

Unknown:

comes down to that ability to just be relatable to think about

Unknown:

how you can create connection, how you can create common

Unknown:

ground, and also how you can be human. So when people talk about

Unknown:

storytelling as a thing, I'm kind of like, I don't know how I

Unknown:

feel about that. Because, for me, it's just about how can you

Unknown:

be more relatable? How can you be more human? How can you show

Unknown:

up as you within a professional setting? That doesn't mean

Unknown:

airing your dirty washing or sharing your personal secrets,

Unknown:

but it's just about like bringing you to the table. Does

Unknown:

that make sense? Yeah,

Lee Griffith:

it does. And I think as you were talking that I

Lee Griffith:

was getting flashbacks of horror of death by PowerPoint, that

Lee Griffith:

many people think that that's what they need to do to convey

Lee Griffith:

the message. And actually, that isn't what this is about. So is

Lee Griffith:

it?

Unknown:

Yeah, and even just on that subject itself. I remember,

Unknown:

I used to do, I've always I love speaking because my career

Unknown:

trajectory has been I was a teacher, then I was a

Unknown:

journalist. And then I ended up running my own business. And so

Unknown:

I've always been a really confident public speaker. Like I

Unknown:

can get up and talk about anything but happy to do that. I

Unknown:

think I probably was okay in terms of being engaging, but it

Unknown:

wasn't until I actually invested in doing public speaking,

Unknown:

training, that I saw the difference between Not even

Unknown:

death by PowerPoint, but just like, okay, talking over slides,

Unknown:

basically, and someone who could give a polished keynote talk.

Unknown:

And if you're working in an organization, that doesn't mean

Unknown:

that you have to go off and have public speaker training and then

Unknown:

be doing these kind of like earth shattering keynote talks.

Unknown:

But one of the key things that I learned about that was not not

Unknown:

to use slides, but to use as few slides. It is possible to have a

Unknown:

structure to any talk that you give like just things like not

Unknown:

starting with Hi, I'm so and so in this talk I'm going to talk

Unknown:

about just like getting straight in with a story. Things like you

Unknown:

know centering a talk around three relatable stories or

Unknown:

anecdotes, not putting text on your slides if you can possibly

Unknown:

help her using images or video or even being prepared to talk

Unknown:

without slides. And one of my worst things that I when I watch

Unknown:

for somebody, and I think it takes away from their authority

Unknown:

is when they say the perfect example, actually is to remember

Unknown:

during COVID, who's the health guy, their policy adviser to the

Unknown:

government, if somebody says, and on my next slide, or the

Unknown:

other thing, yeah. Someone says, Don't worry, oh, yeah, I went to

Unknown:

a university open day with my daughter. And I was rolling my

Unknown:

eyes because the guy who was giving this talk, which was

Unknown:

actually great, you know, it was inviting us to, I don't think

Unknown:

it's a problem saying it granted University, we were going to

Unknown:

have a look around all the medical courses and things and

Unknown:

for the students. And for me as well, it was potentially quite

Unknown:

an exciting day, we were gonna go and have a look around all

Unknown:

the simulated staff. And you know, it was really exciting all

Unknown:

these great tech that they use. But the guy who started by

Unknown:

saying, Don't worry, I won't keep you very long. Then he kept

Unknown:

saying, Don't worry, I've only got one more slide to go. Don't

Unknown:

worry. I'm almost finished now. And you sort of think, how could

Unknown:

you feel this is actually a really exciting opportunity.

Unknown:

Granted, University has got like cutting edge, like we all wanted

Unknown:

to be paramedics, nurses and midwives by the end of that

Unknown:

event. But that first talk, it was just so unnecessary. It was

Unknown:

just like apologetic. And I think that's the thing as well

Unknown:

about had that guy opened with the story about when I first

Unknown:

arrived, this is what we had. Now we can simulate a full on,

Unknown:

you know, just tell us a storytellers about, you know,

Unknown:

what's because the place was full of stories. And I think

Unknown:

it's just that it's just thinking about things. A lot of

Unknown:

people are very apologetic, and that really takes away from your

Unknown:

authority. And when you're using slides it and apologizing for

Unknown:

using them and apologizing and telling you people don't worry,

Unknown:

I've only got well, why do that? Why not just plan a talk? That's

Unknown:

more interesting. It's only if that makes sense to you.

Lee Griffith:

Yeah. I think certainly some of the leaders

Lee Griffith:

that I've worked with in the past, and I've tried to persuade

Lee Griffith:

them away from the PowerPoint slides, it's definitely a bit.

Lee Griffith:

It's a bit of a niche reference. But it's like the Linus is

Lee Griffith:

blanket from the peanuts about this their comfort blanket that

Lee Griffith:

you have to have. And they're thinking about all this

Lee Griffith:

information they need to convey not about what they want the

Lee Griffith:

people to get from the information. Yeah, and

Unknown:

actually, the message really should be less is more I

Unknown:

used to do a lot of radio and TV training for and I work with a

Unknown:

lot of public sector organizations, but also

Unknown:

charities and companies. And there's nothing like doing like

Unknown:

a TV or radio interview, to really focus you on that exact

Unknown:

thing. Because we'd say to people, like, you'll be on for

Unknown:

like, I know, a few minutes, you don't have time to do any more

Unknown:

than get people to remember one thing that you said, like one

Unknown:

key message takeaway. And actually, the best talks that

Unknown:

I've seen, for example, are when people don't try and pack it

Unknown:

with information. They just leave you with something to take

Unknown:

away, there's a message and they leave you with something to go

Unknown:

think about now, you know, there might be times when you're

Unknown:

having to do a briefing. And, you know, maybe you have to get

Unknown:

impart some information. But just thinking about how you

Unknown:

might do that, because I'm pretty sure, God, I can't even

Unknown:

remember his name that that tells you the fact that I cannot

Unknown:

even recall the name of Christianity. That's it. Yeah.

Unknown:

Who everyone loves. But I sort of I remember watching that and

Unknown:

thinking, I'm sure there's a more engaging way of doing this,

Unknown:

which doesn't involve but like you say, it's it's a comfort

Unknown:

blanket. But often we're actually, these are people who

Unknown:

know their subject are so well, they are so expert, they're so

Unknown:

credible, they don't need to rely on it. And actually, if

Unknown:

they just planned less, if you plan to cover less and just go

Unknown:

actually my objective here is just that people take away a key

Unknown:

message like, you know, the Greenwich University example, by

Unknown:

key takeaway from looking around was high tech resources,

Unknown:

simulation robots, you know, you know, if you remember one thing

Unknown:

from that talk, we've got the most cutting edge tech in the

Unknown:

country or whatever. That's it, I'm sold. And I think part of

Unknown:

the problem with the comfort blanket is also about trying to

Unknown:

pack too much content. So if you're planning a talk, or

Unknown:

you're doing report or even in a meeting, and maybe just finding

Unknown:

alternative ways to convey that, so you don't have to stand in

Unknown:

front of a PowerPoint, but that's bigger than the actual

Unknown:

communication itself, isn't it that's bigger than the actual

Unknown:

talk or the meeting or whatever. That's, that's a bigger strategy

Unknown:

thing, isn't it?

Lee Griffith:

Yeah. I was thinking as you were talking,

Lee Griffith:

one of the things I wanted to explore was whether there is a

Lee Griffith:

time and place that you should be using storytelling or whether

Lee Griffith:

it is an all encompassing but actually some of these examples

Lee Griffith:

you've given From the national daily briefings we had during

Lee Griffith:

the pandemic team, an Open Data University just shows the

Lee Griffith:

breadth and variety that you can bring storytelling and it is

Lee Griffith:

really something that can happen in any situation. That scenario.

Unknown:

Yeah. And actually, I think what I was trying to say

Unknown:

at the beginning is it kind of annoys me when people say

Unknown:

they're bringing in somebody to teach them storytelling, like

Unknown:

it's an add on add on. But actually, if you want to use

Unknown:

storytelling effectively in the communication, it should be

Unknown:

embedded through everything you do. So every communication that

Unknown:

you send out, you're thinking how can I basically show not

Unknown:

tell which again, as somebody from a journalism background,

Unknown:

that's, that's kind of what you're trying to do is to show

Unknown:

not tell to get things across in lease where possible. But to

Unknown:

give you another example, I'm all full of the university open

Unknown:

days at moment, I went to another open day University

Unknown:

where the communication was not quite so great. So one of the

Unknown:

most memorable things from the Greenwich University example

Unknown:

was, the head of midwifery just gave this most inspiring talk,

Unknown:

had no notes, no slides, shoot, the only props you have was a

Unknown:

baby with a some kind of model of a baby or something or a

Unknown:

woman with a baby that gave birth or something I can't

Unknown:

remember, she had a standing up, like she got a stand up, sit

Unknown:

down, I can't remember what she got us to do, which had us

Unknown:

moving. But I wanted to be a midwife by the end of it. And I

Unknown:

that is like the last thing that I've ever wanted to be. But she

Unknown:

basically said it started the talk, she said, if you're in

Unknown:

this room, you're meant to be a midwife, you're you've got a

Unknown:

vocation. And she said, It's not the kind of thing and I agree

Unknown:

that it's not the kind of thing that people generally just think

Unknown:

they might try out. She said, You know, if you're in this

Unknown:

room, you are a midwife. And even recording that to you, I've

Unknown:

got like, tingles, because again, to be sat there with my

Unknown:

daughter, and it's such an inspiring woman who was just

Unknown:

speaking, she told us a little bit about a background, but not

Unknown:

that much. She had one prop is baby, she had us out of our

Unknown:

seats doing things. I loved that lady, and I thought I'd love my

Unknown:

daughter to come here and study in this, I'm disappointed. I

Unknown:

don't think she's gonna go. I just, I was so inspired by her

Unknown:

because she was real. And she inspired that she had no, there

Unknown:

were no PowerPoints, there was not a PowerPoint in sight, she

Unknown:

just spoke, and we could go and look it up, or they could give

Unknown:

us a handout or something. But that, for me was an example of

Unknown:

kind of threading the storytelling was in some of the

Unknown:

stuff there, but all of it, but yeah, for me, it's about every

Unknown:

approach every communication, just thinking, how can we? How

Unknown:

can we make this accessible and interesting and, and

Unknown:

storytelling shouldn't be as something that you do, because

Unknown:

somebody's come in and said, let's add some storytelling,

Unknown:

it's, I think it's like a strategy or culture, really a

Unknown:

culture where we think, How can we be more engaging and not bore

Unknown:

each other? In everything we do? Can we make Mindwell? Like, you

Unknown:

know, do we have to send out 60 Page briefings? Like, are there

Unknown:

different ways we can communicate, that are more

Unknown:

engaging? Are we telling an examples, that's something that

Unknown:

just going off on a tangent, but AI, so like, obviously, I'm very

Unknown:

interested in how people are using AI for communication and

Unknown:

content. And I can really see the benefits like chat GPD GGPT,

Unknown:

see, oh, God, like, it's like, I haven't had enough coffee yet.

Unknown:

Anyway, I can see the benefits. And I've been experimenting and

Unknown:

using it with like writing copy for people. And what I think it

Unknown:

really helps with is structure. So say, for example, you've got

Unknown:

to write a talk on a particular topic, and it you know, might

Unknown:

give you 10 bullet points or something and just get you from

Unknown:

that blank page. What worries me partly is the style, because

Unknown:

that's not going to make it into engaging, copy lying, be boring,

Unknown:

and it's going to be stilted, and without personality. The

Unknown:

other thing that really bothers me is examples, because it

Unknown:

doesn't really give you examples. And if they are,

Unknown:

they're not good examples. And all of us, I think, obviously,

Unknown:

people have got different learning styles and ways that

Unknown:

they access information. But I think most of us, if someone

Unknown:

tells us a story, or gives us an example of how, you know,

Unknown:

storytelling, threading storytelling through an

Unknown:

organization could just be about how can we make sure that we're

Unknown:

always using examples? We're not just, you know, how can we show

Unknown:

somebody like the head of midwifery with a baby? And the

Unknown:

problem was, how can we show someone something even in

Unknown:

training, when I'm training, delivering training? And maybe

Unknown:

I'm mentoring someone else's delivering training? I'd be

Unknown:

like, instead of giving someone information, how can you help

Unknown:

them to discover that for themselves? So so instead of

Unknown:

saying, This is what you need to learn, how can you set up that

Unknown:

training or learning opportunity? So that people are

Unknown:

like, oh, right, okay. And that for me storytelling as well. So

Unknown:

instead of giving information, sharing case studies and saying

Unknown:

and asking people, What did you notice about that? What was

Unknown:

different about that? So storytelling for me isn't just

Unknown:

about, hey, I'm going to have a talk that's got a story in it.

Unknown:

storytelling can also be about how you even like if you're

Unknown:

doing your annual report, or you're, you know, sort of making

Unknown:

it a boring annual report like everybody else does. How about

Unknown:

doing something fun with case studies or how about telling

Unknown:

personal stories or whatever? Is that kind of making sense in

Unknown:

terms of, yes,

Lee Griffith:

the thing that you said around let's add

Lee Griffith:

storytelling. I mean, I, in my kind of past corporate life, I

Lee Griffith:

had a chief exec, who, every presentation or everything that

Lee Griffith:

we wrote for him, he was, he was always like, you need to throw

Lee Griffith:

an example or a story. And we used to struggle with this,

Lee Griffith:

because they were our stories, not his stories. And I was

Lee Griffith:

trying to encourage him to take responsibility, in his own way

Lee Griffith:

of sourcing the stories that connect with where he wants to

Lee Griffith:

go, and what he's trying to convey. And if he doesn't, if he

Lee Griffith:

hasn't seen and heard it, and felt it himself, it just felt

Lee Griffith:

really artificial for us to have a database of examples. Because

Lee Griffith:

this, there's something that's someone else's story. I'd be

Lee Griffith:

interested in your views on that, and how, how much

Lee Griffith:

responsibility leaders should be taking? I suppose. So

Unknown:

are you able to give an example of you know, without

Unknown:

being too specific, but But you know, like, you'd be say, right,

Unknown:

we're working on this, whatever. And, yeah, sort of a generic if

Unknown:

you don't want to sort of give too much away. So

Lee Griffith:

it'd be it would be things like you'd be writing,

Lee Griffith:

it may be an all staff briefing on an update of where we've got

Lee Griffith:

to tea with strategy stuff, for example, and it'd be like, I

Lee Griffith:

need a story in here. And you're like, Okay, well, that's fine.

Lee Griffith:

Or it could be Annual General Meeting. So you know, review of

Lee Griffith:

the year, but it was the, I suppose the challenge would be

Lee Griffith:

is if you just feel like I've got this formula in the way that

Lee Griffith:

I want to present, I need a story. And then I, I'm gonna

Lee Griffith:

then put loads of stats and detailing around it, trying to

Lee Griffith:

think of how to explain it, you're, you're not being

Lee Griffith:

authentic, because it's not your story, if, you know, I mean, so.

Lee Griffith:

So it's someone who's can be naturally gifted in

Lee Griffith:

understanding the stories and leading with a story versus

Lee Griffith:

someone who's perhaps shoehorning an example in feel

Lee Griffith:

they have to tell a story.

Unknown:

So what, what would you sort of what would what would

Unknown:

you have wanted them to do instead, I think

Lee Griffith:

my personal view is, I think there's something

Lee Griffith:

about a leader taking responsibility for their

Lee Griffith:

strategy and what they're trying to convey. And for them to be

Lee Griffith:

engaging in the organization, or the kind of what the

Lee Griffith:

organization is doing to see that strategy in action, and

Lee Griffith:

therefore being able to source their own stories rather than

Lee Griffith:

someone. Yeah, and handing it to them.

Unknown:

So was your third beef, not your beef, but your your

Unknown:

challenge? Was it around kind of like, so they would have been

Unknown:

very much probably the stuff in some of the stuff in the Annual

Unknown:

General Report, you wouldn't have been involved in some of

Unknown:

those meetings or chairs, or whatever. And so they were then

Unknown:

expecting you to go and kind of always like, find people talk to

Unknown:

them, find out about it, or whatever. And whereas what would

Unknown:

have worked better for you, do you think in terms of because

Unknown:

because it sounds like the right intention was there the

Unknown:

intention was to bring things to life. But what would have made

Unknown:

that easier for you to do doing?

Lee Griffith:

I think it was more a case of they wanted a

Lee Griffith:

story, but they were never quite sure what the story was going to

Lee Griffith:

illustrate. You know, they felt they needed a story to connect.

Lee Griffith:

So they understood conceptually, the importance of storytelling.

Lee Griffith:

Yeah, they didn't understand that it needed to be their

Lee Griffith:

stories and told in their language and being able to link

Lee Griffith:

it back to the bigger picture

Unknown:

stuff. Yeah. So I've just tried things like that. So

Unknown:

if I just said it better. But if I didn't know, could you give an

Unknown:

example of something going to? Like, would it be something

Unknown:

quite dried and annual report that they because because

Unknown:

obviously, annual reports aren't normally dry? Because they're

Unknown:

about what you've been doing, aren't they? And they've been

Unknown:

about the impact that you've been having and who you've been

Unknown:

working with? And how you've been working or whatever? What?

Unknown:

Yeah, what what sort of things might they be asking, don't find

Unknown:

YOUR Story on there. So an example

Lee Griffith:

so so you've got an organizational strategy, and

Lee Griffith:

you've got these you're usually in organizations, far more

Lee Griffith:

priorities than than they should have? Yeah, like, right. Well,

Lee Griffith:

where's the stories to say that this is the priorities in

Lee Griffith:

action? I suppose my argument is, the leaders that have the

Lee Griffith:

most impact, have the ones that are seeking out those stories

Lee Griffith:

organically as they go about the business to test. Is it working?

Unknown:

Yeah. So they'd be telling you, oh, I've seen this

Unknown:

really great thing. Yeah. Yeah. And what sort of thing would be

Unknown:

like an example of an organizational structure or I

Unknown:

can remember what you said, it said, it sounded quite dry.

Unknown:

Example have like a story they might just pick up or something

Unknown:

they might pick up along the way that I

Lee Griffith:

mean, I'm thinking back to my NHS days, and it

Lee Griffith:

would be the types of stories that connected. So I'm thinking

Lee Griffith:

about one that I used to use quite often, which was we were

Lee Griffith:

making changes to our community services. And a lot of the

Lee Griffith:

presentations that people were doing was around money,

Lee Griffith:

finances, logistics, and the kind of technical behind the

Lee Griffith:

scenes of why we're making the changes. And I cut through it

Lee Griffith:

all, because I went and visited one of the sites where we were

Lee Griffith:

doing that kind of new transformational change to some

Lee Griffith:

of our community services. And I spoke with this elderly woman

Lee Griffith:

who had been visited by a community nurse. And the nurse

Lee Griffith:

just identified, she needed a different toilet seat in our

Lee Griffith:

house. And she was able to talk about how much independence it

Lee Griffith:

gave her by having someone come in and recognize and she no

Lee Griffith:

longer felt she was she was in her 90s. But she felt like she

Lee Griffith:

was in her 70s. But she, but this woman gave her back this

Lee Griffith:

independence because they randomize needed. And that was

Lee Griffith:

the nub of why we were making the types of changes we were

Lee Griffith:

making. That

Unknown:

is a great example of storytelling, the responsibility

Unknown:

can always be passed to communications. Whereas if

Unknown:

you've got to see that comes in and goes, Ah, I've just been out

Unknown:

to visit this great project, because that's what a CEO is

Unknown:

doing, aren't they? Yes, in these things? Or maybe they say,

Unknown:

can we have a weekly meeting where I tell you, yeah, where

Unknown:

I've been, like, what have been who have been talking to, and

Unknown:

maybe you can just keep her, you know, keep a diary of, of what

Unknown:

so so then maybe not necessarily write them off as case studies,

Unknown:

because that seems a bit of a waste of time. But it almost

Unknown:

like, I don't know that they're just you're just keeping it a

Unknown:

bit of a diary of log of what they've been doing. And if you

Unknown:

need to, you can go back to them and find out more we can go

Unknown:

direct to the organization, but it feels to me like the right

Unknown:

intention was there. But it was just that they were just shoving

Unknown:

it on you and expecting you when they were the person that, you

Unknown:

know, often that would have actually been or their team

Unknown:

like, and again, that was like an organizational thing. Because

Unknown:

if you've got not just them, but their you know, C suite team or

Unknown:

whatever, who there's a culture whereby, you know, we meet with

Unknown:

communications people once a month, or whatever, or we send a

Unknown:

bulletin round, you know, they're getting them late, send

Unknown:

a bulletin round of like, you know, this is where we've been

Unknown:

out to see, this is what we have some photographs, because often

Unknown:

they will already have the photographs that, you know, like

Unknown:

a diary really of, of what they've been up to, then,

Unknown:

because I've certainly seen it in organizations where people

Unknown:

are made to write case studies. And I'm like, well, kind of

Unknown:

what's the point of that? If you just know that you've got a

Unknown:

treasure trove of Does that make sense? Or does it, you know, do

Unknown:

treasure trove of stuff that you can just go okay, what was that

Unknown:

that thing that he did? Or she did or? And not just them, but

Unknown:

the you know, the rest of the senior team? Because that's what

Unknown:

people again, that's the stuff that really has an impact, isn't

Unknown:

it when you see how people on the ground, if you like, are

Unknown:

affected by that? Yeah, the end user has a lot to say, you know,

Unknown:

but that's that's exactly it, isn't it? They're the service,

Unknown:

they really do demonstrate impact that they I appreciate

Unknown:

that it can be hard work when somebody is just shoving it over

Unknown:

to you and then expecting you to go and almost like, is that more

Unknown:

of a challenge really expecting you to go and do all the digging

Unknown:

and find out? And then you've got a million other things to

Unknown:

do? No, it's

Lee Griffith:

not. It's not even that I mean, nothing

Lee Griffith:

communications teams, I suppose it's the distinction, isn't it

Lee Griffith:

between? How much responsibility does a leader need to take in

Lee Griffith:

their own personal communications, and how they

Lee Griffith:

communicate and the style they communicate and the consistency

Lee Griffith:

and rhythm that they have? They, you know, of course, they can't

Lee Griffith:

be the communications team, you have a corporate communications

Lee Griffith:

team for a reason. They've got a job and role to do to represent

Lee Griffith:

the organization. But you've got a personal responsibility,

Lee Griffith:

particularly if you're chief exec, or in that C suite, to

Lee Griffith:

think about how am I connecting the people who work for me, the

Lee Griffith:

people who use my services, the people in the communities I

Lee Griffith:

serve, that I can end them with the strategy that we're trying

Lee Griffith:

to achieve? Yes, that can't be devolved to a corporate

Lee Griffith:

function. Because you you're you've got to inspire and lead

Lee Griffith:

people. Yeah.

Unknown:

And this is an interesting thing, which I've

Unknown:

learned, almost as a business owner, but also translates the

Unknown:

other way. But so somebody was approached me now back in the

Unknown:

old days, if someone so I think I've got a really good example,

Unknown:

if you have a better name, who is that? If someone was to

Unknown:

approach me and say, Could you come and do some stories, some

Unknown:

work on our organization with storytelling? Could you come in

Unknown:

and do a series of training days? I'd be like, I can, but

Unknown:

I'm going to have to quote you to do some strategy work because

Unknown:

what we really need to understand is that this is not a

Unknown:

bolt on is I would do the same immediate training now as well.

Unknown:

With media training, it's slightly different because you

Unknown:

can give people skills that the next time next week when they

Unknown:

get caught by radio for you can but even then having to think

Unknown:

about where it fits in. And what to say yes to and no to there's

Unknown:

there's a bigger piece of strategy work to do. I'll set

Unknown:

you up there to help with, but actually, nowadays, I would

Unknown:

probably say Well, yes, I can do that. up, what we need to do

Unknown:

first is a piece of work to see where this is going to fit in

Unknown:

elsewhere. Because what we don't want to do is for me to come in

Unknown:

and deliver some training and then everyone goes home with

Unknown:

spiritual training, and then the CEO starts telling everyone they

Unknown:

have to do it. But actually, there's no strategy for how

Unknown:

that's going to be disseminated like how, you know, creating,

Unknown:

like you said that almost like that line between lines of

Unknown:

communication, which documents so you're going to do in it,

Unknown:

because you can't do it all at once. Currently, if you decided

Unknown:

you're going to thread storytelling through everything,

Unknown:

you know, and the Alright, now we have to in every report,

Unknown:

actually, it probably needs to be a phase thing, doesn't it? So

Unknown:

we'll actually we'll we'll start with this. These types, you

Unknown:

know, maybe we'll start with our newsletter, external, maybe then

Unknown:

we'll start you know, so actually, it's like a three year

Unknown:

plan, isn't it, if you're gonna do something like reading

Unknown:

storytelling, that's a whole change. And it's not something

Unknown:

that can just be fixed in in a couple of days. Example, I've

Unknown:

got a slightly off set of it's kind of it's about, which I

Unknown:

think happens in public sector organizations sometimes and not

Unknown:

for profits, investing in something without thinking about

Unknown:

the bigger strategy, hastened like top down. So try think

Unknown:

about, it's been diplomatic now. I was approached to turn up and

Unknown:

do some copywriting training for ZDNet just happened to be a

Unknown:

university. And it's brilliant. I went to book me for like loads

Unknown:

of it. And it was like writing for the web. And I was like,

Unknown:

Yeah, great. That sounds good. When I got there, oh, my God, I

Unknown:

was greeted by loads of angry people who basically what this

Unknown:

University have done is they'd hired an advertising agency to

Unknown:

make a style guide. And brand guidelines probably cost a lot

Unknown:

of money. And they decided that all non communication staff were

Unknown:

now going to have to upload their own content to the

Unknown:

website. And they hadn't communicated that to anybody.

Unknown:

That you know, I only was realizing this as I was there in

Unknown:

the middle of it. And people were angry with me and I was I

Unknown:

don't even work here. And so they paid for me to this

Unknown:

training, teaching people how to write for the web, people didn't

Unknown:

know that they were suddenly going to be required to read the

Unknown:

writing as communication, people can get quite self conscious.

Unknown:

And so I had all these angry people with pitchforks who were

Unknown:

really angry, also about the amount of money that had clearly

Unknown:

been spent on this advertising agency. And it seemed to me like

Unknown:

that bigger piece hadn't been done. So okay, right, well,

Unknown:

we're making this change, it was probably an efficiency decision.

Unknown:

We're making this change. And it is going to impact the people in

Unknown:

the organization. How are we going to implement that? And

Unknown:

what's the strategy you're going to be? And how are we going to

Unknown:

make a case for this for why this is a good idea. And we're

Unknown:

sure people, and again, I feel like that's the thing with

Unknown:

storytelling, it's one of those things, you could just go, Hey,

Unknown:

this would be really fun. And let's have some fun learning

Unknown:

about this thing. But actually an issue really thinking about

Unknown:

how that's going to be implemented into your

Unknown:

organization, how the leadership's going to what's the

Unknown:

word, I'm looking for champion that or even that is not going

Unknown:

to work or it's even going to upset people. Back in that

Unknown:

example. It's one

Lee Griffith:

of the things that you've I suppose really majored

Lee Griffith:

on I've noticed over the last year is this, almost, and you've

Lee Griffith:

said it, I think in this interview about less is more so

Lee Griffith:

you don't you don't encourage people to talk for talking sake,

Lee Griffith:

you position, the story in line with delivering strategy. That's

Lee Griffith:

the thing that's that drives the types of stories that that you

Lee Griffith:

tell if a leader is thinking about their personal strategy,

Lee Griffith:

and what that content strategy to connect people to to their

Lee Griffith:

business strategy, I suppose is where's their starting point?

Lee Griffith:

How do they something

Unknown:

I've been thinking about? What are not thinking

Unknown:

about I've actually been creating content about is

Unknown:

thought leadership content. And because I think sometimes people

Unknown:

who are successful and in leadership positions, they can

Unknown:

almost be a bit sniffy about content and say, oh, you know,

Unknown:

there's funny influences going on Tik Tok, or LinkedIn or the

Unknown:

one I often hear is, like, old telling people, they had a

Unknown:

banana for breakfast, which I don't think anyone would ever do

Unknown:

anyway. But I almost feel like can be a bit of a snobbery about

Unknown:

content, and actually in being snobby about it and thinking

Unknown:

it's all fluff, you're missing a really good opportunity to

Unknown:

connect with people. So I encourage people to think that

Unknown:

this is an opportunity for thought leadership. And it's an

Unknown:

opportunity to show up and connect with people but actually

Unknown:

be to do thought leadership, you have to, you have to be

Unknown:

thoughtful, you have to think about what it is that you know,

Unknown:

you're not just randomly firing off stuff, you actually think

Unknown:

about what it is that you want to convey. And so I started to

Unknown:

think about how if I was going to, because I kind of think I

Unknown:

know what that is, but if I was good at almost like try and

Unknown:

break it down and get somebody to understand how to come up

Unknown:

with a thought leadership strategy, rather than just a

Unknown:

content strategy showing up it actually again requires a bit of

Unknown:

strategy work to think about, well, what you know what, what

Unknown:

is it I'm going to show up as a person brand because also I

Unknown:

think that leaders of companies they are a personal brand

Unknown:

whether they like it or not, and yeah, people will make a

Unknown:

decision, even things like I had to go into this, I had to make a

Unknown:

complaint to an NGO, which has been quite ongoing. And it went

Unknown:

up to Chief Exec level. And the fact I've got a personal reply

Unknown:

from there's a lot, there's a lot, there's not good in that

Unknown:

organization, but getting a personal reply from the Chief

Unknown:

Exec. That sort of stuff is strategic, isn't it? Because

Unknown:

it's like, okay, didn't have to reply to me, but clearly, that's

Unknown:

their policy. And that's a personal brand thing, isn't it,

Unknown:

you know, am I the kind of chief exec, that at a certain point, I

Unknown:

will send an email to somebody and acknowledge them, even if

Unknown:

I'm not personally dealing with it, you know, sort of things. So

Unknown:

things that there's four areas that I've think about, so the

Unknown:

first one is expertise, so you know, what expertise you have,

Unknown:

and getting that across, people are normally okay with, because

Unknown:

they, you know, they're normally that they do have expertise in

Unknown:

something and, you know, they, they do know about their

Unknown:

organization, or their sector or whatever. And the next one, so I

Unknown:

think having expertise is not enough. So you can be you can be

Unknown:

really knowledgeable about something, you can have written

Unknown:

all the books, all the papers, you can be amazing, but you're

Unknown:

still boring as hell so so that on its own isn't enough, you

Unknown:

know, so you do need to demonstrate expertise. The bit

Unknown:

that really makes a difference for me is there's a few bits, so

Unknown:

is that when you're showing up online, or the speaking or

Unknown:

you're publishing content, that you're demonstrating the ability

Unknown:

to, to give insights or analysis or to, to actually, you've got

Unknown:

something to say like you that you're going to be a thought

Unknown:

leader, I always think about as leadership. So somebody that I

Unknown:

would follow online, a personal brand, you know, chief exec will

Unknown:

be somebody who's showing me what I need to care about, you

Unknown:

know, in the next, you know, the, here's some really

Unknown:

interesting things we need to be looking at. These are some

Unknown:

things that perhaps we need to be cautious about somebody who

Unknown:

isn't just spouting off corporate jargon at me,

Lee Griffith:

and you see, so many chief execs that think,

Lee Griffith:

getting online, it's just read retweeting or re sharing content

Lee Griffith:

that the kind of corporate organization is doing. And

Lee Griffith:

actually, it's more than that, isn't it? is adding your own

Lee Griffith:

commentary on top of it. Yeah.

Unknown:

And obviously, I absolutely understand all the

Unknown:

challenges around that, which is why this needs strategy, you

Unknown:

need to sit down and go, okay, like, let's have a think about

Unknown:

some of the topics that I feel okay, that I feel I can add

Unknown:

analysis on, think about, let's have a think about some topics,

Unknown:

maybe where I don't, I don't want to go or, you know, I don't

Unknown:

want to get involved in that conversation. But it is a

Unknown:

choice, and you're in control. But yeah, if you're just

Unknown:

retweeting stuff, like, who cares? And how is that showing

Unknown:

that you're a leader, you're not demonstrating any kind of

Unknown:

leadership. So for me, it's about some kind of analysis

Unknown:

insight, it can and it can be really just pointing people, I

Unknown:

hear some really interesting things I thought about that

Unknown:

government report, or, you know, that this is going to be

Unknown:

discussed in parliament today. This is really interesting,

Unknown:

because, you know, there was a way to do this. I think people

Unknown:

always think that you, you can't do this without getting yourself

Unknown:

in hot water, there are actually ways that you can do this, where

Unknown:

you're just saying, Hey, this is really interesting, worth a

Unknown:

look. And someone who's interested in that sector, or

Unknown:

it's funny, because my, which I think that has to be diplomatic

Unknown:

now that somebody I know is working for an organization that

Unknown:

just got a new chief exec in the kind of sports arena. And I

Unknown:

would expect somebody like that to be talking about sport and

Unknown:

what's happening, perhaps not engaging in some of the more,

Unknown:

the more kind of controversial parts of it, but actually, even

Unknown:

so, like, it doesn't need to be thought about because there are

Unknown:

some quite, you know,

Lee Griffith:

if it matters to their staff, or communities.

Lee Griffith:

Yeah, absolutely, I should be. But I think I'd

Unknown:

love to pick that you say just retweeting not willing

Unknown:

to share with any kind of views on anything or any insight. The

Unknown:

other thing as well, I mean, most organizations will have

Unknown:

this is about values. So actually, I think, obviously, an

Unknown:

organization will have its values as an organization, but

Unknown:

what about that, chief exec, like, there will be things that

Unknown:

that chief exec, perhaps particularly cares about, you

Unknown:

know, or particularly, has strong values about, and that

Unknown:

might be something that's really part of their personal brand,

Unknown:

you know, in their spare time, I don't know, they really

Unknown:

committed to the environment, and they're going off at

Unknown:

weekends or whatever, and doing things, you know, to, or maybe

Unknown:

animal cruelty, or I don't know, but but actually, not just not

Unknown:

just saying, here's a picture of me walking my dog at the

Unknown:

weekend, but actually just thinking really carefully, what

Unknown:

are some of the things that that I do that are me the books I

Unknown:

read the things I do in my spare time, you know, the things that

Unknown:

I support, which I could be sharing, talking about to give

Unknown:

people a bit more of an insight into me but also aligned with

Unknown:

the with the company's values and you know that this can be

Unknown:

done. But it just involves strategy and it involves sitting

Unknown:

down with the communication students I often find as far as

Unknown:

you say that I sometimes think that leaders should have a lot

Unknown:

more respect for communications and media teams and for their

Unknown:

expertise. And a problem, I think could be that they think

Unknown:

they know better, and they don't, and treating that

Unknown:

department as their expert partner, and actually, they can

Unknown:

help you, like, they know how to help you navigate this stuff.

Unknown:

And then at the other end of the phone, like use them. And so I

Unknown:

think there's that sort of side of it as well. The other part of

Unknown:

it is, is credibility, which I think organizations, some

Unknown:

organizations do really well. But if you're saying, you know,

Unknown:

we're the leader in whatever, or we, you know, will show us, you

Unknown:

know, show us in your content, like, show us why you've got the

Unknown:

best tech in that sector for that subject area or whatever,

Unknown:

like, share with us some case studies, or some testimonials,

Unknown:

we can actually understand because they're written in plain

Unknown:

language, or, you know, tell us that story about the lady in the

Unknown:

toilet seat, or whatever, I would love to see, like you

Unknown:

mentioned about chief execs, you know, I want to see if they've

Unknown:

been out to, to visit people in project, see how things are

Unknown:

going, you know, I want to hear about that. It's they've been at

Unknown:

a meeting with other vice chancellors, and they've been

Unknown:

talking about something important, or they've been, you

Unknown:

know, involved in some policy, whatever. That's thought

Unknown:

leadership. That's it. But I think there's, there's very few

Unknown:

chief execs that I can think of that do that or even leaders,

Unknown:

you know, they're, they're terrified. And it would just

Unknown:

that kind of, does that sort of line up with your experience?

Lee Griffith:

I think so in your point around credibility is

Lee Griffith:

really interesting. And key one, because I think we see this with

Lee Griffith:

things like diversity and inclusion, and other initiatives

Lee Griffith:

where it is feels really tokenistic. And they might issue

Lee Griffith:

a statement or say, you know, I'm supporting this day. And

Lee Griffith:

then they don't do anything else to show during the year that

Lee Griffith:

actually they're demonstrating their integrity of taking

Lee Griffith:

action. And I think men can be a real challenge, because for some

Lee Griffith:

organizations, I think those four the four points you've

Lee Griffith:

given around, how do you demonstrate thought leadership

Lee Griffith:

are really important. I talk a lot with the clients I work with

Lee Griffith:

around how do you build, I call it your leadership brand.

Lee Griffith:

Because people do feel like personal brand can feel a bit

Lee Griffith:

like I'm going to be a tick tock influence. But the leadership

Lee Griffith:

brand is how you get your next job. It's how you get the

Lee Griffith:

promotion in your organization, or how you stand out from the

Lee Griffith:

crowd of other people. It's that lien that differentiates you.

Lee Griffith:

And if you're not being strategic in how you focus on

Lee Griffith:

that, then no one else is going to do it for you. Yeah,

Unknown:

yeah. And I just think a lot of it is there's a lot of

Unknown:

fear. And I understand this fear about saying the wrong thing, or

Unknown:

being canceled or whatever. But actually, most organizations,

Unknown:

they've got a comms team, they've got mediating, they've

Unknown:

got people who have experienced in crisis comms, who were just

Unknown:

at the other end of the phone, like, who will be there to

Unknown:

advise and, and also to help you, when you make mistakes? You

Unknown:

know, I think about this for my journalism days, it's usually

Unknown:

things that are not thought through, if you've really

Unknown:

thought to yourself, Okay, so isn't things I want to talk

Unknown:

about these and things that actually I don't think are

Unknown:

relevant, you know, you've got your guidance, if you sort of

Unknown:

mean about that. But I think often, I'm not even going there.

Unknown:

And unless it's beneath me, like, Oh, those and I made a

Unknown:

point the other day that about my own personal values, because

Unknown:

I think about this a lot, and I've done some training, you

Unknown:

know, I'm more concerned with impacts and being important if

Unknown:

certain means so, yeah, if your focus is on, I want to make

Unknown:

impact, both personally, but also as the organization, and

Unknown:

that's the lens that you think about what you're going to share

Unknown:

and how you're going to share it. How can anyone think that

Unknown:

you're just trying to be important? If your focus is

Unknown:

okay, well, when I when I do share or comment or whatever,

Unknown:

it's, I want to be making an impact. So I'm not just here to

Unknown:

be important or to be famous, or whatever, like that side of it,

Unknown:

I think is important as well, it well, that

Lee Griffith:

goes to the point you made at the very beginning

Lee Griffith:

around this authenticity. So if you truly believe in something,

Lee Griffith:

and it's its core to your values and the things that you want to

Lee Griffith:

challenge and champion, then it's going to come across

Lee Griffith:

authentically, when you talk about if you're doing it because

Lee Griffith:

you think you need to be seen to be doing it, people aren't going

Lee Griffith:

to buy in, and then they're not going to trust you. So that's it

Lee Griffith:

again, it goes to your core strategy, your values and how

Lee Griffith:

they work in harmony with each other. Yeah,

Unknown:

exactly. And I say, um, you know, I do see, in

Unknown:

particular with nonprofits, and then also public sector, there's

Unknown:

a lot of pressure at the moment, I think, to think a certain way

Unknown:

and to hold a certain line. But actually, I feel like there's an

Unknown:

opportunity there for for people to be brave and people to kind

Unknown:

of stand out a little bit more, but that's probably a whole

Unknown:

other conversation.

Lee Griffith:

So if someone's listening to this and thinks

Lee Griffith:

that actually they need to be doing more of this in their day

Lee Griffith:

to day leadership, it's a gap that they want to try and lean

Lee Griffith:

into and close a little bit. What What would you say was the

Lee Griffith:

ingredients to help them think through how they start to

Lee Griffith:

incorporate storytelling, and thinking more strategically

Lee Griffith:

around how they connect it to what they're doing in the day to

Lee Griffith:

day, something

Unknown:

I often recommend people do. And this is

Unknown:

regardless of what they do is they're kind of like, how does

Unknown:

this visibility thing work? Like, why is it that that CEO,

Unknown:

everybody follows them? Everyone engages them, like go and look

Unknown:

at what is it they're doing what they're talking about, and maybe

Unknown:

benchmark them against this, you know, expertise, analysis,

Unknown:

social proof, or credibility and values? Like what is it and

Unknown:

actually analyze them? And have a look, what is it they're

Unknown:

doing? What are they talking about? Why do people show up and

Unknown:

listen to what this person has to say, and you will start to

Unknown:

see, this isn't vanilla, you know, these are people who've

Unknown:

got, they've got something to say, they've got insights,

Unknown:

they've got opinions, but they're genuinely not stupid,

Unknown:

you know, they're not just throwing out anything, they're

Unknown:

showing up authentically. But also, they're, it's strategic,

Unknown:

it's been thought through. But the other thing I would say, if

Unknown:

you're working in an organization is to use your

Unknown:

media, or comms professionals, and to really mind the

Unknown:

expertise, a lot of teams will have really experienced people,

Unknown:

but also that some of them will have X journalists who, you

Unknown:

know, they've got so much that they can bring to help to help

Unknown:

you with this. And books and you know, if you're working in

Unknown:

organization, and you've got the resources there, if not invest

Unknown:

in, I would recommend investing in booking out some time to take

Unknown:

a couple of days hours just to go and actually really think

Unknown:

this through and, and also, I think there's a business case

Unknown:

for this in terms of the organization, because if your

Unknown:

CEO is somebody who's is a thought leader, and people

Unknown:

follow, they want to hear what they've got to say they want to

Unknown:

invite them to the parliamentary do so want to get them involved

Unknown:

on steering groups and working parties and the government or

Unknown:

whatever it might be, you know, whatever your this is worth

Unknown:

investing in, it's worth investing time, because the

Unknown:

impact in terms of things like if you're a public sector

Unknown:

organization, or your charity funding, like this stuff is

Unknown:

important, you know, and it's not silly, like, I've been

Unknown:

working on a project recently, which has to do with winning

Unknown:

awards, I have to say, before us, before I started doing us,

Unknown:

again, disappointed we didn't, you know, I was I was actually

Unknown:

kind of thinking, let's use a whole lot of effort. And what

Unknown:

I've learned through that experiences, but actually being

Unknown:

an award judge or being you know, in that it's the

Unknown:

connections, it's the, it's the network that you're building.

Unknown:

But actually, this does need some thinking through and it

Unknown:

needs some some time. And you know, it's it's, it's the kind

Unknown:

of thing that you probably need to go away and have an away day,

Unknown:

in a way with your team or whatever. But the key thing is

Unknown:

that it isn't just something that's talked about for two

Unknown:

days, it's actually turns into a strategy, and you get help where

Unknown:

you need it. On a practical level, I don't know what you

Unknown:

think labor probably wouldn't just advise a CEO just to kind

Unknown:

of jump on and start posting like, you know, I would

Unknown:

definitely recommend to some thinking time and some expert

Unknown:

advice and some strategic advice. I don't think people

Unknown:

should be afraid. But I think one of the things that makes you

Unknown:

less afraid is having done that planning strategy that expert

Unknown:

support. Is that Is that helpful? Or are you looking for

Unknown:

me to be sort of more like, here's the type of posts that

Unknown:

you can do whatever?

Lee Griffith:

No, no, I think that's really helpful. Thank

Lee Griffith:

you. My final question is, what's the one bit of advice

Lee Griffith:

about content strategy, leadership strategy,

Lee Griffith:

storytelling that you would love every leader to pay attention

Lee Griffith:

to? Well,

Unknown:

so I've had two. So the first one I've already alluded

Unknown:

to, is kind of embedding a culture where you're always

Unknown:

we're communicating clearly where communication and finding

Unknown:

ways to communicate everything that you do is a priority. Even

Unknown:

if you have to bring it in stages, even if it's something

Unknown:

that you have to do in a three or five year plan is that

Unknown:

bringing storytelling or bringing things to life is

Unknown:

something I feel that you should be part of your long term plan

Unknown:

to bring that on board? It's not an adult. Now, I can't actually

Unknown:

remember the question that you asked me what was it again?

Unknown:

Because I know I had a second point. And I thought, but I do

Unknown:

want to say that as well.

Lee Griffith:

What's the one bit of advice that you'd love every

Lee Griffith:

leader to pay attention to? Yeah,

Unknown:

so the first one is about just really giving this

Unknown:

the attention that it deserves. And instead of making it a bolt

Unknown:

on, how can we embed, not storytelling itself, but the

Unknown:

spirit behind storytelling, which is about being authentic,

Unknown:

which is about being relatable, like when you use you know, you

Unknown:

said about your boss asking you to find examples? I guess the

Unknown:

better question would be, how can you make this more relatable

Unknown:

to people so that people actually read it? Yeah. And that

Unknown:

might be about going out finding an example. But it might be,

Unknown:

there might be another way it might be reducing it by half. Or

Unknown:

it might be like publishing a short summary and not making

Unknown:

people read something that long. You know, it's about how can we

Unknown:

make it more relatable? How can we make it feel more authentic?

Unknown:

So I think that's probably the key thing. I think I've actually

Unknown:

forgotten which is really helpful, isn't it? But that's

Unknown:

probably quite authentic, isn't it? Yeah. And that But the other

Unknown:

thing actually, is, that probably is, is about not being

Unknown:

afraid not to be perfect like, because I think a lot of leaders

Unknown:

in all walks of life, they're so afraid of like not doing

Unknown:

everything perfectly. And actually one of the things that

Unknown:

can really help people relate to you and connect with you is not

Unknown:

being perfect is getting to the end of an interview and

Unknown:

forgetting what you were asked or whatever. And saying, Sorry,

Unknown:

as well, when you've got things wrong, apologizing to people,

Unknown:

when you when you got things wrong, I think that happened.

Unknown:

Huge, huge impact. Because perfection can be quite

Unknown:

intimidating. It can also make you feel quite removed from

Unknown:

people. And it's harder for people to connect with you, if

Unknown:

they think you're just this person Ivory Tower, who never

Unknown:

gets anything wrong, or if they do doesn't ever own up to it, or

Unknown:

whatever. And just thinking about how you can turn up all

Unknown:

the things that are you. So I think a lot of Chief execs with

Unknown:

it, they tend to think I don't know, they might have interests

Unknown:

or pets or holidays or whatever. And they think all of that is

Unknown:

just like nobody's interested in that. Actually, that's the part

Unknown:

that everybody probably is really quite interested in. Or

Unknown:

the fact that you've, I don't know, you've just bought a

Unknown:

caravan or something, I should be more interested in that

Unknown:

stuff. And as long as you've thought it through, and you've

Unknown:

thought about how that fits into your brand. And you're not just

Unknown:

like, you know, firing off stuff willy nilly. People want to know

Unknown:

about you, they want to know about the person. And I think

Unknown:

leaning into that more and not being afraid of it, I think

Unknown:

would be the other thing. Yeah.

Lee Griffith:

I mean, you said this right in the beginning, but

Lee Griffith:

showing that you're human, I think it's really important to

Lee Griffith:

build that connection and that trust. And I think to your point

Lee Griffith:

about not being perfect, I think that's such an important thing.

Lee Griffith:

Because I think if you are striving for perfection, and

Lee Griffith:

only demonstrating when things go right, you're actually

Lee Griffith:

creating a closed culture in your organization where people

Lee Griffith:

will be feel fearful of failure, and fearful of speaking up when

Lee Griffith:

things go wrong, and all of that. So actually, you're having

Lee Griffith:

a detrimental effect on the organizational impact if you're

Lee Griffith:

only showing, yes, perfect light.

Unknown:

And also as one last thing about saying sorry, is if

Unknown:

you are gonna say sorry, but you have to be authentic with saying

Unknown:

sorry, like you see organizations and they mess up

Unknown:

and how they deal with it. And you can tell when they're not

Unknown:

really sorry. Yeah. And you can tell when they don't really

Unknown:

think they've messed up, but they feel I've got to, you know,

Unknown:

sometimes being authentic could be about not saying you're

Unknown:

sorry, as well, you know, saying no, we're not sorry. I was

Unknown:

really impressed by a university. That fact, a member

Unknown:

of staff who resigned and said, we don't think this person

Unknown:

should have resigned, that this is what we feel universities are

Unknown:

about, I have huge respect for that. Because that's authentic,

Unknown:

it might not sit with everybody. But again, if the organization

Unknown:

knows who they are, what their values are, and that's aligned

Unknown:

with the leader that makes you really strong, I think. Yeah,

Lee Griffith:

completely. Well, thank you so much. I've

Lee Griffith:

absolutely loved to have in this discussion. If people want to

Lee Griffith:

connect with you online and get more of your advice and

Lee Griffith:

guidance, where can they get in touch or follow you?

Unknown:

I think for listeners of this podcast, I think

Unknown:

LinkedIn is probably so just Janet Murray on LinkedIn. I do

Unknown:

have a website JanetMurray.co.uk, but LinkedIn

Unknown:

might be a good place to start

Lee Griffith:

perfect. And I'll put all the details in the show

Lee Griffith:

notes. Thank you again for your time.

Unknown:

Thank you.

Lee Griffith:

If you enjoyed this episode, please let me know

Lee Griffith:

on Apple podcasts or on app of choice and drop me a line over

Lee Griffith:

on LinkedIn. You can find me at Lee Griffith. I'll be back with

Lee Griffith:

the next episode in two weeks time. So in the meantime,

Lee Griffith:

remember to sign up to my newsletter at Sundayskies.com

Lee Griffith:

for further insights on how to lead with impact. Until next time!

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