Disability, Identity & Leadership in Psychology - Turning Difference into Strength! What if the thing that makes you feel different is actually the thing that makes you a better psychologist?In this episode we explore disability, identity, lived experience, and leadership in psychology, and how difference can shape powerful, compassionate clinical practice. I’m joined by Dr Sunil Lad, Consultant Counselling Psychologist and National NHS Clinical Director, who shares his experience of growing up in a body the world wasn’t built for and how that shaped his journey into psychology, leadership, and compassion-focused work.This episode is essential for aspiring psychologists, clinicians, and anyone who has ever felt “different” or questioned whether they belong in psychology.

Timestamps:

1. 00:00 What if difference is your strength?
2. 01:07 Introduction to Dr Sunil Lad
3. 01:49 Growing up in a different body
4. 03:07 Labels, identity, and what feels “freeing”
5. 04:37 Family, comparison, and coping strategies
6. 06:12 Feeling “different” and compensating through achievement
7. 06:45 Being infantilised and navigating assumptions
8. 07:48 Shame, asking for help, and self-compassion
9. 09:30 Online trolling and the darker side of humanity
10. 14:20 Working in prisons and breaking assumptions
11. 17:11 Lived experience as clinical strength
12. 20:43 Supporting families raising children who are “different”
13. 23:39 The drama triangle explained
14. 25:25 Advice for aspiring psychologists who feel different
15. 26:46 Leadership in NHS psychology

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What if the thing that makes you feel different is actually the thing that makes you a better psychologist? Today, I'm joined by Dr. Sunil Lad, a consultant counselling psychologist, national NHS clinical director, someone who's spent over 20 years working in prison and mental health settings. He also happens to be three foot 11 inches tall. And in this episode, we're not just talking about height. We're talking about identity, labels, power, difference, and what happens when you grow up in a body the world wasn't built for? Because here's the deeper question, how do you turn lived experience of being othered into leadership and beyond? If you've ever felt different, wondered whether this career is for someone like you, or if you're curious how compassion, therapy, and even yoga can transform suffering into strength, then this conversation might just change how you see yourself. If you find it helpful, I'd love it if you comment, liked and subscribed for more.

Hi, Just want to Welcome along our guest for today, Dr. Sunil Lad, who is a consultant counselling psychologist. Hi, Sunil.

Hi, Marianne. Really good to be here with you today.

Lovely to have you here. And thank you for connecting with me on LinkedIn. And I know we've had some quite interesting conversations and there's a variety of ideas we had for episodes. And we're actually going to be doing two episodes together. So if people find what we're talking about useful, please do check out our next episode too. Could I ask you, for anyone who's not watching on YouTube or who might be visually impaired, or just wants to understand the way that you see yourself and your body, could you please describe a little bit about yourself, Sanil? Yeah,

Sure. So I guess what I'd say is that people would probably class me as having a disability. So I'm 3'11" in height. So some of my limbs are a bit shorter than others. So obviously that has led to some challenges I've faced throughout my life over time.

Thank you. And I'm aware that there's all sorts of terms that have been used in the past that maybe aren't always that inclusive or kind of very positive or kind of affirming for the person themselves. I know before we started recording, I was talking about a lovely book that my sons and I have read, which is by an author called Shinaid Burke, and it's called Breaking the Mould. And she, I think, is about three and a half foot tall, and she really didn't like some of the labels that had been levelled at her when she was growing up. So she actually, I think, petitioned the Irish government to have the term little person added to the dictionary. And that's what she likes to use as describing herself. But I'm aware that everybody is unique and should be able to think about what sits right for them.

Could I ask you what you think about names, about labels, about how you prefer to think and talk about yourself, if that's okay?

Yeah, sure. No, thanks, Marianne. That's really good question. And I think we use these all sorts of labels in order to describe ourselves, and sometimes that can be quite limiting. And I think it's really important we think about what's quite freeing. So I guess what I would, for myself, look at is being a short person, because I think for me that feels like it's a statement of fact, really. I think it's hard, isn't it? Because sometimes we put all sorts of judgments to different words. So yeah, I think I prefer that really.

Thank you. And today we're kind of thinking about people's experiences, obviously heavily informed by your own experiences, but generically when we're working with people clinically, obviously people can come up against different challenges because of the body they find themselves to be in. But of course, when we're working with people, maybe we might be looking at a mother's experience of raising a child who's growing up in a different body or a father, or for that matter, siblings. It can be really difficult when you feel like you are getting very different treatment to your siblings because we might like to think that we exist in isolation, but that isn't the case. Could I ask you for a little bit about your experiences of growing up in a different body sunnel?

Yes. So I think for me, it's kind of thinking about the environment in which I've grown up in really. So I guess there were people in my family, so my sister, my dad, with the same condition, whereas my mom wasn't, and then a larger extended family where there were other people without the condition as well. So I think it's interesting, isn't it? And I think especially growing up, we develop all sorts of insecurities and I guess that sometimes can be hidden or that can be seen by others. But also, I guess when we're growing up, we're often compared to others around us as well, aren't we? Whether that's how clever you are or how tall you are, or we're often seen to have either unattractive or attractive qualities where people, the environment kind of really promotes us. So I guess everyone will have their unique journey of what that looks like, and then people develop their own coping strategies to cope with that, whether that's deciding ... I think a lot of therapy for me has kind of made me realise that actually that's why I got quite academic and I got quite motivated in order to compensate about feeling different in a way or feeling not good enough, deciding to use getting qualifications or working hard as a psychologist or wanting to be a psychologist to compensate against that really.

Yeah, absolutely. And as you're speaking, I'm thinking about a lot of the identities I might see myself as and the labels that I've either given to myself or others have given to me over the years. And I think it's always very difficult when you're going from becoming a teenager to a young adult and beyond. And you might, I want to do this, I want to live independently. But I would think maybe with being of smaller stature, maybe people are more likely to infantilize you or speak down to you or treat you differently. Has that been your experience?

I think it's been really interesting in terms of, especially it definitely has been my experience. And I think it's really interesting to see the different spheres in which I travel. And especially when I do training, I kind of talk about the difference and recognising the difference of, for example, how people might see me just as I'm shopping in Sainsbury's compared to when I'm in a meeting as the lead psychologist in the whole team, for example, or walking into prisons with my role. So I think there is something about, again, how do we use different labels or what do people initially see, which means that they might get treated as less than because I think automatically you do get that, but I think there's also something about how you might carry yourself as well. I think for me, even just going to Sainsbury's, for example, and trying not to hold any shame when I've got to ask for something that's on a high shelf.

Whereas actually that was a journey in itself, I think for me, kind of feeling really embarrassed at first to ask someone. And I think that takes a bit of time. And I think maybe that's why I also trained as a psychologist to learn these skills of why I help other people as well. But I think it's important to think about actually, yes, the world might not be equipped, but at the same time, I think as I'm someone who practised compassion focused therapy, one of the things that I often think about is, where is the wisdom? What wisdom can I use to apply to really look at this rather than get caught up in suffering? But I guess in a way, probably a lot of those experiences throughout my life have led to suffering in a way being talked down to. But also, I think maybe things are changing.

I think people are really aware of these things now. People are more conscious to not be disrespectful in a way compared to probably when I was growing up, whereas people would be quite ... Obviously there's probably cultural and kind of intergenerational messages, whereas I think older people would be quite okay with making a joke, whereas younger people I think would probably be a lot more uncomfortable about it as well. And I think there's something about one of the things I recognise is that actually sometimes people can feel really uncomfortable and then that's when they decide to make some kind of joke because that's their way of trying to talk about it, but not talk about it as well.

Yeah. I think often I hope people are getting better and getting kinder, certainly in person, but keyboard warriors are not always that kind and trolls. And I don't know if you follow the account of ... It's a couple called, I think they're called squirmy and grub. And one of them is in a wheelchair and I think has some sort of muscle condition where the muscle tone is affected, but the female is kind of of normal stature and walks ably. And people, I mean, that's their brand now. So I think that's what they do. They talk about campaigning and about how it's okay to be in a relationship and loving sexual relationship with someone that might look very different to you. And that people will really struggle, I think, to see that that's a genuine relationship or that it might say something about her if she finds him sexually attractive and whether that's consensual.

But also, A, it's not your business. They're grown adults, but they are happy to answer those questions and I guess try to reduce that stigma. But yeah, I think hopefully in person people are kind of, but yeah, the keyboard warriors I think is very tricky.

Yeah. I think we are living in a different age in a way where I guess we might be very clear on what people might think before, because they'd just say it, but maybe really clumsily, maybe in a joke, but it'd be said, whereas this is, it's meaning that people are really venting some of their frustrations or just being really cruel as well. I think especially working in the prison system, I really recognise there is a dark side to humanity that we don't always want to talk about, or it gets used as entertainment in a way, or it gets played out in a certain way. And I think one of the things that I'm really conscious of, and especially thinking about this particular conversation is humour. I remember going to university and I used to love comedy nights, but also at the same time, really, be really defensive and really ready for a joke to be heard at my expense.

And I think there is something about actually how comfortable our society with things, how do we get primed into certain what is right or what is wrong, what should we feel comfortable about, what shouldn't we feel comfortable about, and what are no-go areas in a way? And I think in a way, what we probably need is a bit of a sense of, well, why do these keyboard warriors kind of happen? What's missing in their lives in a way, which means that they're letting out this level of anger and hatred towards others, but obviously not able to do it in a ... Well, they probably are in an aspect doing it within their own lives, but feeling that in a way they're able to do it more freely on the internet. And I think, again, I guess it goes back to that sense of anonymity as well.

If you think about some of the research of what we might do when we're in a car, for example, compared to when you're in person with someone, actually, yeah, you might be more vocal when you're in a car compared to when you're face-to-face. Or even if we think about the new world of being online, actually how people are in person compared to when they're online as well.

Yeah, I think there's something about that.

Yeah, absolutely. And I'm aware people of shorter stature are often dissuaded or even are not allowed to apply for certain jobs. So one of my friends that I grew up with, I'm fairly sure, I might say she was four foot 10, four 11, that sort of threshold. She'd always been really interested in travel and tourism leisure and really, really wanted to be an air cabin person, stewardess. She would've been amazing at it as well, just that she would've been incredible. She was never allowed to apply because she was too short. I think you had to be five foot four or something like that in your flat feet. And when I say flat feet, I mean with no heels on, really difficult. And you said that you kind of worked in prisons and justice systems. Are there any kind of additional considerations or people saying, "Actually, you can't come in here, you can't do that.

You've got to be of a certain height." Is that something you've come up against in your career, Sunil, or in your history?

Yeah, actually I haven't. And it's interesting, I've worked in prisons for over 20 years now and I kind of fell into it in a way, or maybe I didn't fall into it, but it kind of happened. And I don't think I was potentially aware of just what I was walking into, but I think at that time I obviously had a can- do attitude and had supportive people around me who said, "Well, actually we can make this work in a way." So it's never ... I guess again, there are things that might be high up or whatever. And I think actually when I first did start to walk into prisons, I think people were really worried. Would he be able to survive this type of environment, which can be really hostile? Would he be attacked? Would his safety be something to be concerned about, but touch would.

Over 20 years, I've even worked in high secure prisons. Nothing has ever happened back because I think there is that kind of general code in terms of actually therapeutically it's meant that people have felt able to be vulnerable with me in a way. So I think, yes, we think about the dark side of humanity, but also we can also think about the caring side of humanity as well. And I think I do look back and I think, "Oh gosh, how did I navigate that? " But there might be, for example, certain places which are harder for me to go through, but no one's ever said no in a way. There's always been that, "Okay, so how do we make adjustments?" And I guess for me, that's probably the reality of my life in a way. How do I adjust to this situation to something which isn't necessarily quick and easy to think about really.

So I think there is something about the resilience that we develop as human beings once we start to have that sense of adjustment.

Yeah, absolutely. And I think one of the really lovely things I've experienced in this podcast is helping people to see how psychology looks different these days. There is no one size fits all. So had a really lovely, powerful session with Sky, who's registered blind and has a guide dog, Yvonne, who uses a wheelchair, a number of other people who just look different or may not look how you might expect as a psychologist or as an aspiring psychologist. And thank you for trusting the podcast to tell your story of looking different in psychology, but obviously still being able to really achieve. And I think what you're saying is you're able to form those meaningful working relationships that actually can be really beneficial.

Yeah. I really think actually there's something about how do we as human beings recognise that actually we're all trying to have some kind of experience. We might think that any profession, and that's not necessarily just psychology, we get caught up into some of these boxes of, you must do this, this is a quick and easy way, but actually what we end up being better clinicians by recognising, well, what is our lived experience? What is our human potential? And actually how can this discipline really help me as well then to help others? How do we use that lived experience to shape and help others? Because actually, going back to compassion focused therapy, we all experience suffering. I think there is something about how do we stop trying to switch off suffering, but really be able to expand in our own suffering in order to become free of it.

And I think that for me has been particularly important, both not only from my therapy journey, but more recently my yoga journey as well.

Yeah. Isn't it just the best secret sauce that nobody necessarily talks about that when you are progressing in a career in psychology, you get to learn the tips, the techniques, you get to actually feel better. I am so much more well as a person, as a mother, as a wife, as a daughter, as a friend. And I'm just better because I'm a clinical psychologist and because I'm surrounded by all of the people that are incredible around me. And when I am struggling, I can reach out to people and be like, "Oh, I'm making a tricky time with this. " And they're like, "Firstly, they might respond to me as a friend, but then they've also got the skills to be able to help me. " And it's just the best. It's the best. If you're wondering about a career in psychology, maybe think about adding that to your plus list, I would say.

Yeah. And I guess for me, it's really important, I guess as a counselling psychologist, one of the things that was really important is to have your own therapy because actually if you don't, it's hard to be aware of what your blind spots are. And I'm conscious not all part of applied psychology has their own therapy, but I think it's really important for us to recognise, well, actually this is what might be really challenging for me when I'm helping someone else. And especially, I guess, working in forensic environments, we come across all sorts of things in terms of the dark nature of humanity. But at the same time, we're human as well. And I think if you don't have the right skills to be able to process what might be going on, that's when we see all sorts of dynamics play out, whether that is at work or in the therapy room as well.

And I thinking about power as well, I think that's really important to recognise the power that you might hold without recognising it as well. But also how do we, especially when we're thinking about being trauma informed, for example, how do we recognise that actually once you start to sit with what your suffering is, how do you empower yourself to free yourself from it? Because I guess it can be quite disempowering to get caught up in that loop of what are the areas that I don't want to go towards.

Yeah, absolutely. Really important stuff. And I'm sort of thinking about when someone is pregnant or gives birth and then experiences that moment where their child physically looks different than they expected. It's reminding me of when I worked in intellectual disability services and that's that idea of, well, you've packed for a holiday in the Caribbean, but then you realise that you've got Italy and it's a city break and actually you feel like you're kind of woefully equipped and all the stuff that you brought with you, the tools, the skills, they aren't necessarily going to support you in this journey. How can we kind of, if we find ourselves working in services supporting families who are raising children who might well be different than anyone in their family, different than what they expected, how can we, I guess, help them to see that this child can go on and do great things.You're self-evidenced.

You are working at a very high level as a consultant, counselling psychologist, but of course it is different than what somebody might have been expecting.

Yeah. I think it's really important to think about, well, what support can we put into place? And I think support is really important that empowers because I guess support, there's a tricky balance of what creates dependency and what empowers. And yeah, I think there's something about, how do you use that as an opportunity to allow someone to flourish? What do they need? Sometimes we might think we might know best, but that might not be the case. And I guess I feel very lucky in terms of the support that I had from my parents, from my extended family, from friends growing up.

Yeah, I think there was always an opportunity, but also at the same time, not to get stuck in it because I guess there's something, one of the things I try to work with clinically is thinking about the drama triangle, where actually we might really sit in that victim position where we feel hopeless and powerless all the time. And I think that can lead us to feel quite dependent then on the system or become dependent on the system. And I recognise saying this, everyone's journey is going to be really individual, but I'm not saying that they don't need support, but I think that there's a tricky, a slippery path in a way which could happen. And everyone's journey is going to be unique, but I think it is about what support is empowering rather than fostering dependence.

Yeah. For anyone who's not familiar with the points on the drama triangle, could you briefly take us through what that is, Sunil?

Yeah, sure. So the drama triangle, we've got three points on it. So we've got victim, rescuer, and perpetrator, and that's not necessarily about individual people. That could be systems, for example. And we often see this triangle play out, whether that's in services between people or between teams, for example, where someone sits as a victim and because of experiencing some negative experiences. And then what often happens is that people might go into a rescuer position. And I think it's often that rescuer position, which makes people feel quite good. And therefore there's always a trap, especially in the helping professions like psychology, where we could become the rescuer for someone. Or then when we might be putting boundaries or saying, no, that's when people might be experiencing that individual as a perpetrator, for example, seeing quite a level of hostility, for example. So I think what I've been trying to think about is how do we step out of this drama triangle by really challenging, by really empowering and encouraging and coaching people rather than getting stuck because also the positions might also move from person to person as well in this triangle.

Thank you. Before we finish today, there might be someone listening to or watching this episode who maybe does feel a little bit different than their peers and wanting to pursue a psychology or mental health career, or maybe some other career owner just stumbled across us. What kind of advice or support would you offer? Wise wisdom would you offer to them?

So I think there's something about how do you use your experiences as a vehicle to be able to help others? Obviously, it's important to think about firstly, how do you help yourself? How do you put your oxygen mask on first before you help others? But maybe what do you need to learn about yourself to have the skills to really be able to understand suffering, for example, and how then that might be able to help others in your own journey and to really empower, but also be that positive vision. Because often if we think about inspirations, we often see a certain type of person, for example, in leadership positions. So I think there is something about how people could think about really leading with a different face, with a different body, with any difference, for example, that we don't regularly see.

Absolutely, because you are a leader and this is what drew me to you on LinkedIn. I think when we connected, I didn't even realise you were growing up in a different body until we were speaking and you were like, "Actually, I could really talk to this point as well." Could you tell us a little bit about your leadership, about what you're doing in the NHS?

Yeah, sure. So like I said, I've got two different positions in the NHS. So currently I work in Northamptonshire for their Healthcare Foundation Trust, and so I lead a number of services in terms of psychology within their prison services, but also other specialist service. Also, just a range of prison services, including a low secure forensic ward and just other types of criminal justice services. So that kind of leadership is really important for me to support people to recognise the challenges that we face. So doing reflective practise and training and recognising, again, the dark side of humanity, but also I've got a national role as well. So I'm the National Clinical Director for Health and Justice in NHS England as well. So I provide a clinical view supported by various colleagues to make sure thinking about health and justice commissioning across the country, really having that clinical viewpoint.

Gosh, what a busy and demanding life. You've got juggling it alongside your own life and family life as well. Well, hats off to you. Thank you so much for your time and speaking with us. Where's the best place for people to learn more about you should they want to sun ill?

So I've done a TED Talk a few years ago, which is on YouTube, just a 10-minute yoga practise where I briefly talk about my experience of yoga being in a different body. There's another couple of podcasts out there as well. So any aspiring psychologists also within NHFT, we sometimes have positions available, especially for assistant psychologists or even qualified psychologists. So if anyone is interested, then they're more than welcome to get in touch.

Perfect. Is LinkedIn the best place for people to follow you if they want to? Yes. Yeah,

No, definitely.

I will make sure all those details are in the show notes and on screen. Thank you so much for your time. And if people are interested in hearing more about embodied practise and yoga, then that will be the topic of our next episode. Thank you so much, Sanil.

Thank you.

What an absolute pleasure to speak with Dr. Sanil Lady. If you enjoyed this conversation, I think you'll enjoy the next one too, because I am joined by Dr. Sanalad again, and we're talking about Embodied Practise, which is a wonderful episode. I know, because I've already recorded it at the point that I'm doing this outro for you. I hope you love being part of my world. I hope you love hearing stories about psychologists of different shapes, sizes, nationalities, backgrounds, and experiences. If you do, I do think you'll really like the Aspiring Psychologist Collective book and the Clinical Psychologist Collective book, which both get excellent reviews and gives you a really lovely insight into the world of psychologists and what got them to be where they are. I would also love it if you consider writing a blog article for the aspiring psychologists. Why not check out the ones we've already got?

Head along to www.aspiring-psychologist.co.uk and then scroll to the free resources tab and then click on blog. I might well try and make that a bit simpler and try and add blog to the main screen too. And whilst you are there, why not check out the aspiring psychologist membership too? I think you might enjoy that as well. If you'd like to consider joining my inner work, The Backstage Crew, you can join the channel for exclusive members only content. They're really lovely little standalone episodes that help you think about where you are at right now. There's details in the show notes or in the description.

If you're looking to become a psychologist, then let this be your guys. With this podcast that you said you'll be on your way to being qualified is the aspiring psychologist.