In this episode of the Pivot podcast, guest Pastor Liz Eide, who currently serves the Lutheran Church of Peace in Maplewood, Minnesota, joins host Dwight Zscheile.

Together, they explore the Lutheran Church of Peace's journey in renewing its identity and expanding its capacity to name God's presence and activity after the congregation faced a near-death experience.

Listen to the Podcast here:

Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/pivot/id1515600522

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/0cDv3mtwlzTozjxcyYdFVj

Join us on social:

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/faithleadfromluther/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/lutherfaithlead

Liz Eide: And it wasn't any longer about, yeah, how do I get you to come in so that we have more people in the sanctuary and we have more money in the offering plate? But we really wanted to say, "we think that there's something here in this community that's special. And, and we think that it would be a benefit to you. And we want to share that with you. And we want to know you."

Dwight Zscheile: Yeah.

Liz Eide: And and that felt different. That felt different.

Dwight Zscheile: Many congregations today are facing challenges of vitality and viability. They aren't sure how to journey faithfully through a season in which their future isn't clear, and they must discern a way forward. How might leaders help congregations renew and deepen their identity, discern God's call for this next season of their life, and become more fluent in listening to, and being led by, and talking about God. Hello everyone! I'm Dwight Zscheile, and welcome to the Pivot podcast. This is the podcast where we talk about how the church can faithfully navigate a changing world. In today's episode, we will explore a local church's journey in rediscovering and renewing its identity and expanding its capacity to name God's presence and activity. I'm excited to have with me Pastor Liz Eide, whose congregation went through a near-death experience and emerged with new clarity, focus and energy. Liz is the lead pastor of Lutheran Church of Peace in Maplewood, Minnesota. She was ordained in 2002 and has served as a solo pastor and on large multi staff teams in Germany, Rhode Island and Minnesota. Liz, welcome to the Pivot podcast. Let's dive in.

Liz Eide: Yeah, I think to understand the full nature of the journey, you kind of have to go back to the beginning. Um, and the church was founded in 1957, and legend has it that when you came to the church as a new person, a visitor who became a member, the first question that was asked as you came in the door wasn't, "where do you work?" It was "what division do you work for?" As everybody in the neighborhoods surrounding Lutheran Church of Peace worked for 3M it was 3M families moving into Maplewood and Woodbury and Oakdale that wanted to start and have a congregation in their neighborhood where they could bring their children up in the faith. And from then until about 2007, it was a really robust congregation. It was full of kids and families, and everything was going really well. And the way you you'd want your church to be going. And then a beloved pastor left. And as many mainstream churches were in decline, they began to decline a bit. They had some shorter pastoral calls, many interims, and and a rolling ball picks up speed. And so as more and more families left, more families left. And by 2017, they had that near-death experience that you mentioned, and they had shrunk by two thirds. So it was pretty drastic to wake up one day and realize where they were at. So they had a wonderful interim in place during that time, uh, Dr. Sarah Henrich and she worked with the Saint Paul Area Synod, Reverend Justin Grimm and somebody, uh, a person from the ELCA headquarters in Chicago came Neil Harris and they did a vitality study. They looked at the building top to bottom. They looked at the neighborhood, and they did, uh, pledge drive in the summer to see if the church was committed or not. And it really it was the question was, are we shuttering the doors? You know, are we done here? Is God done with this place or not? And they after that pledge drive, they realized there was still a lot of energy in the happy remnant as they were referring to themselves. And so they applied for and received two grants, one from the Saint Paul Area Synod and one from the ELCA. And that gave them the foundation to call a full time pastor once again. And so I started in February of 2018 as a redevelopment pastor.

Dwight Zscheile: Let's unpack the context a little bit. Right? So this was kind of a company church in a sense, with 3M. Maplewood is a, you know, those of you who aren't familiar with the Twin Cities in Saint Paul, Maplewood is a first ring suburb of Saint Paul, and it's changed a lot since 1957. What are those changes?

Liz Eide: It has indeed, a lot of those families have moved out of those neighborhoods. Uh, some of the second generation lives in some of those homes still, but a lot has changed. And so, um, as an example, Carver Elementary is a as an elementary school that's literally in our backyard. And we get to go there in the spring to give out peace awards. And the first spring that I was there and got to give out peace awards, every student that came up had Hmong last name, which was very different from the experience of the community that would have founded this congregation. And that's the diversity is amazing in the neighborhoods around us. Um, that's not something they were really set up to deal with.

Dwight Zscheile: Yeah, yeah. And, you know, that's such a common story of, um, congregations that were started in first ring suburbs in the post-war era with that founding generation. Right. Who were young, perhaps they had young children. Sunday schools were full. And then they have a kind of a life cycle. As they then retire, their kids move away. The neighborhood often changes. First ring suburbs are some of the most diverse areas now in American cities. Right. And so, um, and then how do you actually connect with those neighbors becomes a major challenge when they aren't just naturally showing up to church in the ways that maybe that founding generation did?

Liz Eide: Yeah. Yeah. We weren't really prepared to invite in diversity. And I think that's the case in a lot of congregations.

Dwight Zscheile: It is, it is. So it sounds like initially the test of whether they could continue was: were there enough resources in terms of a pledge drive in the summer? It's interesting energy and commitment to to try to make a renewed investment on the part of the larger church in actually, you know, redeveloping this congregation. Um, what was, how would you describe the theological imagination or the sense of spiritual energy connected to, you know, that at least people being willing to make financial commitments?

Liz Eide: Yeah, I when I got there, it was really clear right away that they, um, they had tried everything. They, they knew that they had sort of tried every strategy to draw in people, families with young kids, older folks, um, and they knew that they had to do something different, that, that what they'd been trying wasn't working. And they'd tried every strategy, every sort of growth gimmick that you can think of. And they hadn't worked, and they were ready to think about things differently. They also really had a sense that that God was saying to them, "I'm not done here yet." And that was really powerful for them to have that and to know that. The thing we didn't have was a true identity. What does that mean? Who are we as we begin again? And and that's really where we started was who are we now and what does this next phase look like and mean? And we're ready to do church differently. But what does that mean and what does that look like? And gosh, does that mean we have to let everything go? Or could the new come alongside of the old. And but they were they were ready and I think and in a learning posture and that really was helpful.

Dwight Zscheile: So identity is the central challenge for so many congregations, particularly those that have, um, that are experiencing this kind of change of context and maybe generational, you know, um, shift and things like that. So tell us a bit more about how you help them renew their identity. What did that look like?

Liz Eide: Well, we had a huge blessing in that, a week before I began, they had already signed up for the year of renewal process through the Saint Paul Area Synod. And that process starts with listening. And I think it's it's not where I would have started if I had been jumping in. I think I would have gone to other strategies and trying to just grow and get people to come in the doors, starting with listening, was a whole different place to start. And it really did ask those spiritual, foundational theological questions. And so we listened. We listened deeply for God's leading, and we listened deeply to each other, and we listened deeply to the community around us. And that listening, we thought was going to be a means to the end. That really ended up being a gift to us. It was a really deeply spiritual practice for us. Um, and it that the listening itself renewed energy for us and brought about so much joy, so much joy, that boundless joy became our top value as we recreated values and a new vision, statement and priorities. So it was a really wonderful, wonderful place to start.

Dwight Zscheile: So, um, tell us specifically what forms did that listening take, like what it actually look like in practice?

Liz Eide: So it took a few different forms. We as a, as a church council, listened deeply and we read through the book of Acts, and we started spending 20 to 30 minutes during every council meeting in Scripture, in prayer and just sharing faith with one another. What we thought about the Scripture, what was happening in our life, where we saw God at work, in our own lives and in the congregation. And that started to shift how we thought about leadership. And then we had a listening campaign, and we, the Synod came in and trained up 20 people to be listeners in the congregation. And we were worshiping between probably 65 and 70 people on a Sunday. And we, um, did 80 to 85 listening sessions with different people individuals. And those sessions were not about what do you like or don't like about Lutheran Church of Peace? We could have done that on our own. This was what tugs on your heart? What are you excited about? What are you scared about for the future in in general in the world and and what makes your heart sing and and tell us your story. And we just listened and then just received that story and then just thanked them at the end and, you know, ask clarifying questions along the way, too. But it was really, really to receive that gift, that story. And that really became the gift in a, in a community that had shrunk that much and said, really, we know each other really well, you know, we'll do this listening. We'll sort of entertain this for you, Pastor, but we don't think we're going to learn anything. And to a person, every one of those people that was doing the listening sessions learned so much about their neighbors, many, many stories that they'd never heard. And they were really, really surprised. And it was an enormous gift.

Dwight Zscheile: Hmhmm. So, um, the listening to the neighborhood, what did that look like?

Liz Eide: Yeah, that was going out to local businesses. We didn't end up doorknocking uh, we did some of that later, but we went to local businesses, and then we went to some of the government officials and leaders. I remember a particular conversation with the the mayor of Maplewood and, and just trying to get a foot in the door. And it was really interesting when I first approached her about coming to speak with her, her guard was up. You could tell, in her body. And, you know, it was very much a posture of, here's another group that's going to want something from me. And as we explained, we really want to come and listen to you and hear what you see as the assets and the gaps in the community and how we can walk alongside of you. I mean, her whole posture changed and it was this openness to, you want to walk alongside of us, you want to be helpful? And that was amazing. And that really opened a lot of doors and some wonderful conversations and some friendships and some partnerships in the neighborhood.

Dwight Zscheile: So, you know, in many congregations that are facing this kind of institutional survival crisis, the temptation for leaders is to focus on institutional questions. But what I hear you saying is that the primary work was spiritual. It was spiritual in terms of engaging in prayer and scripture with the leadership team, the board, and then these stories that you invited people to share, which were not "fixing the church" stories. Right? Right. There were stories of of energy and hope and and struggle and things like that. Um, and then also with the neighborhood, it sounds like the listening was not focused on how do we again, either fix the neighbor or attract the neighbor in. It's really God, what are you up to in this neighborhood? How do we come alongside and join in? And what might God be calling us to enter into in in a kind of accompaniment model, which it sounds like from what I'm hearing from you.

Liz Eide: Yeah. And it was really it was wonderful. We took all the listening that we did, and we distilled that down. And from that, what we heard was, you know, I, I am sad because my adult children and my grandchildren aren't in church anymore. And I want a space where questions are welcomed and my doubts and my wonderings will be received openly and be welcomed. And I want a place where I'll be cared for spiritually. And and that's what this place has been. And for a lot of people who are still there, that's why they were still there was this place had walked alongside of them during a difficult time, and they wanted this place to be able to do that for other people. And so we started to take all of that, and that then shaped how we went out to talk to people about faith. And it wasn't any longer about, yeah, how do I get you to come in so that we have more people in the sanctuary and we have more money in the offering plate? But we really wanted to say, we think that there's something here in this community that's special. And, and we think that it would be a benefit to you. And we want to share that with you. And we want to know you. Yeah. And and that felt different. That felt different.

Dwight Zscheile: So share with us some kind of stories of turning points along the way. So this initial phase of listening unfolded and then what happened from there? I know there was a pandemic that happened in the middle of some of this journey. But yeah, where did, where did you go from there?

Liz Eide: Yeah. So the first thing we did then was create a new vision statement. Uh, we are creating a brave community that includes the sure and the searching and the skeptical, spills outside the walls of the church and shares the joy of Christ. And every one of those words was chosen really carefully by a team. And and then we created five values. The first one being boundless joy, bold innovation, engaging community, radical welcome and faith centered lives. And those really started to shape and lead everything that we were doing. And they have continued to do so. And we affirmed those in the fall of 2019. Now, we'd also rewritten the constitution nd reshaped our council structure and done a bunch of things, sort of the nitty gritty stuff that's not real fun necessarily, but very foundational. And but that set the foundation for the pandemic that came in the spring of 2020 and helped us to step out and be brave and take some risks and be willing to say, because we care about our adult children and our grandchildren that aren't here, we're going to be willing to do some things differently. And because questions are accepted, we're going to shape our conversations differently. And so all that we had heard, that was really on people's hearts and what we felt God was speaking to us and where God was leading us, then that shaped how we started to be church with each other.

Dwight Zscheile: So are there any particular kind of stories of people who where you saw a transformation along the way, or maybe groups, you know, through this journey?

Liz Eide: I think the biggest thing we see, well, yeah, lots of stories. Um, you know, one of the stories we've told is we had this organ in the sanctuary, and it's not a pipe organ, it's an electronic organ. And it wasn't really working anymore. It was going to take a lot of money to fix. And we ended up hiring a jazz musician as our church musician. She doesn't play the organ, and she's not going to play the organ. And so it was sitting there and but because of her, our music ministry was growing, and our little choir loft in the back of the sanctuary was crammed. You know, the choir would be sitting there holding their books like this, and the band that was in there on some Sundays didn't have much room. And so we started to talk about, we think maybe it's time for this organ to move, because it was taking up a lot of real estate, prime real estate. And so we started a conversation. And I think a lot of folks who, die hard church, people who really think about the organ as part of worship, were able to come alongside and say, you know, because of our "why" because of why we exist. We're okay with this transition. We see that this might not be the future of the church. And so we're we're willing to let this go, this instrument go for the sake of a growing ministry. And so we met with stakeholders and had all the good conversations. And then we announced on one Sunday that the organ was leaving, and the next Sunday it was gone. And people didn't bat an eyelash. They came into worship that next Sunday, and all they could see was all the wonderful space that it had created for our growing music ministry. And I think that's just one example of being willing to shift how we think about church and what's really important and the things that we could do differently and still have core pieces that are intact. But it helped us name what those core pieces are and the things that maybe aren't as core as we thought.

Dwight Zscheile: Yeah. Well, so I want to unpack that a little bit because so for so many churches, something like an organ, you know, it's not just an instrument, it's a symbol of a certain cultural tradition, you know, certain way of worshiping and things like that. And so you hired a jazz musician, right? It's a different cultural tradition. Yeah, yeah. And so, so just say a word about that, because I hear a kind of diversifying of the culture of the congregation. The worship culture certainly is expressed in worship, you know, in music.

Liz Eide: Yeah. It's really been wonderful. It's not radically different, I wouldn't say. People come and our worship isn't radically different. But there are some things that are different. We've been utilizing a statement of belief out of the church in Canada, and we don't call it a creed. It's not a creed, but the words, um, just speak to people differently and help those, especially who maybe aren't as rooted in the tradition, to see and understand what it is that we believe in a clearer way and a more accessible way. So worship isn't drastically different, but when you come, you can feel it. There's a shift in in how it feels. So it's a fairly traditional worship service, but it feels different. Um, and it feels more accessible. That's that's what I hear people say when they come to visit. And so that's really been a wonderful gift as, as new people come in and, yeah.

Dwight Zscheile: So, what are some pitfalls that you would advise other leaders to avoid in this kind of process?

Liz Eide: Well, I would say don't go and just get rid of your organ. That's number one, right? Like this is not what I'm saying. So that's not the answer for every congregation. It was for us. I think the important part of that was coming alongside of where God was leading us and what we were hearing, and being willing to make changes that made sense for our congregation. So it's going to look different. And every in every congregation. I think some of the pitfalls, too, are, um, I think finding a way to let go of some of the fear, I think a lot of times we go out and we want to share faith or we want to draw people in, but it's out of this sort of like desperation that we're, we are dying, and we need more people to come in to, to save us and to bring us back to life. And you have a lot of life right where you are, and God is working in that place and just taking a breath and pausing and listening to where God is leading and what God is speaking and how God's already at work in your place is the best place to start.

Dwight Zscheile: I love that. So really beginning where, you know, the energy is and, you know, often I think that energy is a sign of the Holy Spirit's work in people's lives and in a community as well. Rather than thinking the leader has to come and somehow bring all the energy or the new ideas. But you really began with, you know, where people were at and and how God was already working. Yeah.

Liz Eide: Yeah. I think it really was um, less about strategy and more about culture shift. Yeah. And just getting back to the real deep spiritual foundational roots and, and it sounds really simple and it seems like how can that be the quote unquote answer. And yet I really think it is.

Dwight Zscheile: Um, so I want to wonder with you theologically about that for a minute. Right. Because, um, because what, you know, your first new value of the church is boundless joy, right? Which sounds to me like a very theological, spiritual value. I mean, the Scripture talks a lot about experiencing joy in the Holy Spirit and in Christ and things like that. And this isn't a kind of superficial cultural happiness or, you know, institutional kind of like we have a great club that we have, um, and, and a lot of what you've described as people being willing to take a spiritual journey in which they've renegotiated some pretty basic elements of their congregation's life. Um, talk like, how have you seen God at work in that? And how do people talk about God in this congregation as a result of that journey?

Liz Eide: Well, it's been a lot of fun. We still we do a lot of listening still. And like this Lent, we've been wandering with Peter and wondering about our own faith journeys, and it has been fun to see people willing to sit around the table and share their faith with each other and speak some things out loud. And that's been, you know, baby steps along the way. Um, but I think their whole posture of learning and saying, maybe we need to think about this differently and just starting to listen to God and and feeling that joy come back has allowed them to take the next brave step and the next brave step. And and that has really left space for some folks who don't know the tradition, who haven't don't have a lot of church experience to sort of wander in and find space where they can, um, their questions are welcomed and they're wonderings because other people have them, too. And I think just making that space open and available to people to say it just took the pressure off people to say, we're not asking for a, you know, a seminary level deep theological statement of faith. Anything that you're thinking about with God and anything that you're seeing is, is, is the right answer. And just making space for that really helped people start to say, okay. And we do a lot of being silly. Um, so last night, for instance, we were talking about forgiveness and Peter asked Jesus, you know, how many times do we need to forgive? And then you have that whole story with the tent, with the slaves and the story of forgiveness. And so we did a lot of math problems, silly math problems, to sort of dive into it. And then we got into these deeper theological questions about forgiveness. And what is that really about and how does that work? But the pairing, that sort of light heartedness with then diving into the serious part has made it easier, more accessible for people to start just talking about faith with each other, too.

Dwight Zscheile: Hmm. So it sounds like you've created an environment in which you know the doubts and questions that people, I think often have in congregations, but. Right, but but many congregations don't necessarily, um, create a space in which people can be honest about them or bring them to the surface in community together. You, I love the idea of being being a brave space, right, where people can really take the risk of showing up, engaging, wondering together, and working through some of that.

Liz Eide: Yeah.

Dwight Zscheile: Hmm. That sounds wonderful. Um, any other kind of advice to our our listeners or our viewers? Um, because I think what you, what your congregation faced is very common. There's a lot of churches that are in that kind of place of disconnection, right? And often becomes a place of despair because they're not really sure where to go and how to move forward.

Liz Eide: I think just to to take heart. You know, the Scripture says take heart and and knowing and trusting that God really is with you on this journey and that God has a plan in mind for your congregation, that God's maybe only going to show you one step at a time. And but to have the courage to take that one step and to trust and to lean in and to listen, to listen really deeply into. Just offer it up and hold some things loosely. I think holding holding some of our traditions a little more loosely, uh, makes room for some things to look and feel differently. And, and it doesn't have to be drastic. You know, our story isn't drastic. It isn't flashy. It's relational and foundational and and so, um, I guess that would be my advice.

Dwight Zscheile: I hear in you a certain generous tolerance for ambiguity as a leader. Right? Yeah. Yes. And you've helped your community then tolerate a certain amount of ambiguity, because when you're taking this journey one step at a time where you're discerning God's will, um, you know, piece by piece rather than we know exactly where we're going to be in five years. And here's the strategic plan like that. That's a very different kind of spiritual habitus. Yeah. Um, how have you, as a leader, cultivated that? Because that can be a really uncomfortable place for leaders to to live.

Liz Eide: Yeah. Uh, well, we've leaned into some of the Faith+ Lead pieces around experimentation, which has been really helpful. I guess that would be another word of advice, too, is there are a ton of resources around you, wherever you are. And Faith +Lead is one of them. And we've leaned into some of those things. And so thinking about experimenting for a season. So, you know, it helps sometimes to hold something loosely for a season, knowing we might pick that up again. We might not. But just saying we're going to harden fast, stop doing this and we're never going to do it again. It's really hard for people when we have a tradition that's been with us for such a long time, and so that was a piece of it. And just being willing to experiment a little and, and think about things a little differently. Um, I had something else that now I don't remember what it was.

Dwight Zscheile: Well, you know, I think, um, in your own Lutheran tradition, one of the commitments is the adiaphora principle, which is that, um, you know, so much of how we organize church is is indifferent, right? Um, provided that the word is, you know, purely preach in the sacraments or, you know, administered according to Christ's commands. And so there's a lot of flexibility in the tradition itself. As a Lutheran...

Liz Eide: There really is, to proclaim that sometimes.

Dwight Zscheile: Right. So do so in some ways, what you're doing is actually very traditional for a Lutheran church.

Liz Eide: Yes. Yeah. It is kind of funny because like I said, it's it's not flashy or dramatic. It really is foundational. And coming back to some of those foundational roots and in a different way. And, one of the things I was thinking about is that, um, we have these values in this new vision statement. We do not have a strategic plan. And I think that especially in today's world, things are changing so quickly. Uh, we really needed to create something quickly. So we created those values in that strategic that, um, those that vision statement in about six month's time and those really have carried that's what's carried us forward and helped us to make decisions based on those that keep us rooted to what's really important. And they call us back to what's important. And they help us ask the good questions so that we know what the brave next step is all the time.

Dwight Zscheile: So that's wonderful, knowing who we are. Yes. And the vision of where God is calling us, then we can leave the details of exactly how that's going to be lived out and embodied, um, in today's changing world, more to the process of living into it rather than having to know all that ahead of time. Yeah.

Liz Eide: And we have a lot we have a long way to go. Still. There's a lot still to do. And so we just keep leaning in.

Dwight Zscheile: Wonderful. Well, um, for those of our viewers and listeners who want to dig in a little bit more, there's a link in the show notes to an article in the Word and World Journal that you co-wrote with our colleague Terri Elton about this process. So for those of you who want to dig into that, that's available. Um, astor Liz, thank you so much for joining us on the Pivot podcast today.

Liz Eide: Thank you for letting me talk about Lutheran Church of Peace. It's always fun to share their story.

Dwight Zscheile: And thank you for listening today. I hope that you found it inspiring and encouraging. We'd love to have you join us next week again, as we take another dive into how the church can faithfully navigate the changing world. Dwight Zscheile signing off on another episode of the Pivot podcast. See you next week.

Faith+Lead: The Pivot podcast is a production of Luther Seminary's Faith+Lead . Faith +Lead is an ecosystem of theological resources and training designed to equip Christian disciples and leaders to follow God into a faithful future. Learn more at Faithlead.org .