Host Nii Wallace-Bruce presents an insightful episode of PSP with special guest and recently retired Canadian dual international (7's and 15's Rugby), Magali Harvey. The two discuss the upcoming 2025 Rugby World Cup final between Canada and England. They delve into the contrasting playing styles of the two top-ranked teams, Canada's strategy (04:21), and the evolution of women's rugby (14:54).

Harvey, who played in the 2014 World Cup final, shares her experiences and observations on the current team's preparation and challenges, including funding issues. The episode also reflects on the implications of rugby's growing popularity and the potential for increased investment in the sport.

Magali Harvey

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Opening and closing music courtesy of Jeremiah Alves - "Evermore".

Welcome to another episode of PSPI am your host, me Wallace Bruce.

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good is rugby?

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how good is it?

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The game they play in heaven, as they say.

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And you can say that Canada's heaven on

earth in terms of a country, when you

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have Canada playing in the Rugby World

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say it's a slice of heaven on the field.

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When they take on England the 2025

World Cup at Twickenham, it'll be

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quite the test and it'll be a contrast

of two different sides in many ways.

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So to break down this and more,

we brought someone in from.

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Canada's rugby alumnus.

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was at the last Rugby World Cup

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she recently retired after a career

that spanned fifteens and sevens.

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It's very rare that a play can

play the two codes, but this is a

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special talent we have in the room.

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So without any further ado,

let's bring in Magali Harvey.

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The winger and outside back

extraordinaire who played for Canada

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and also recently for Bordeaux Magali.

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How are you?

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Magali Harvey: Thank you so much

for having me, and I am very well.

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Thank you.

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PSP: It's a pleasure to have you.

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on.

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Congratulations on your career.

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I know you retired recently, earlier

on in the year, but the, excitement

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must be that seeing back at the.

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pointy end of the tournament

they've come close.

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They've had semi-finals in the past,

but get to the final to be there, take

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us through what that feels like as

someone who was there, coincidentally

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also against England in 2014, I

believe that tournament was in France.

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What was it like being a

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Magali Harvey: Yeah.

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For one, I think it's important to,

I, I recently retired and I think

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it brings in a different lens.

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I was a player, so I see a lot of

things that they have to sacrifice,

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especially coming from Canada.

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But it also allows me to say things that

players cannot necessarily say, whether

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it's funding or whether it's, I don't

know, other point of views that as a

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player is not necessarily well perceived.

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What was it like in 2014?

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That's.

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There's a whole, I think so much

has happened in the last 10 years.

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So in 2014, I think Canada,

were straight up the underdogs.

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Now when I say that, we were like,

I think we were ranked fifth or

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sixth, so no one expected us to

make it to the finals at all.

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It was a big surprise.

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And so kinda everything kinda changed

from there where I think that the

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2014 ending up in finals, despite

losing to England created a huge

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hub in Canada where players were.

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Players and future players are really

excited to, to have women's rugby around.

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And I think this is like the game changer

that led to this year's World Cup where

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players are once again in the finals.

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But it's no surprise they came

into this World Cup ranked second.

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It was expected that

they would perform well.

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PSP: That is a good, good point.

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This final will be the clash of

the ranked teams in the world.

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You have England who have

been ranked number one.

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They also won the Six Nations

and then Canada ranked number two

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and they've often they've been

dominant in Pacific Nations play.

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They took care of Australia in

the quarter final and they shocked

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a number of people with the way

that they pushed past New Zealand.

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'cause New Zealand were the defending

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to go back to the final this time around.

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But first half of blew them away.

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It was not.

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Casey play, as I'm sure you can

appreciate as someone who played the

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outside acquisition, but really good

movement of the ball at the breakdown.

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So when players get tackled, no time

to set up again for the defense.

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Canada's already thinking about

to push the ball forward, and

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it's, two or three seconds.

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They're moving into the next phase.

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And I don't think New Zealand

could keep up with that.

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It was really a fast paced,

it was a flurry of movement.

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And would you say that's been

the, I guess the ingredient

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up to their success in 2025?

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The quick go forward and also

the PC expansive play out wide.

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Magali Harvey: Yeah, definitely.

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But I'd say it's minimizing

what it actually is.

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So I think for us, we have to think

of the profile of the Canada players.

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So in Canada, rugby comes

from university sports.

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What does that mean?

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Means that all the Canadian

players have a degree, pretty much.

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They're brilliant, smart woman that

could have a full-time job if they

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wanted, but they are such as play

rugby, but they have a lot of iq.

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Not only that, they play overseas

in England and they play a lot of

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rugby, so they get a lot of exposure.

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Now if we think of their coach, Kevin.

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Kevin is specialized in women's rugby.

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Why is this important?

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Because women's rugby does not

play the same as men's rugby now,

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as women are smaller and although

they have very accurate kicking,

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like they do not kick as deeply.

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So the strategy is different.

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And what Kevin realized is that women are

smaller, take less space on the field.

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So if you're able to plan

as quickly as possible.

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There'll always be a space if you're

able to execute the right decision

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to execute the right decision.

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You need any player to feel comfortable.

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So Kevin decided, he basically just gave

the green card to all of the players

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to try whatever they wanted to try.

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Whether you're a prop or

whether you're a scrum half, you

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could still be the scrum half.

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If you are the first of the

breakdown, whether you are a

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forward or a back, you could go

into contact, you can move the ball.

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And so because of that, as soon as

there is a attack call, someone is

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already at the breakdown, irrelevant.

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If it's a scrum, half the objective is

just to move the ball real quick and.

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In addition to this, if you look at this,

the bench of Canada, they go with six

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forwards as substitutes and two backs.

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What does that mean?

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It means that the entire front

row of Canadian forests can be

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switched in completely to make

sure that the fast paced game

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is promoted throughout the game.

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So yes, it is definitely Canada's

strategy to play as quickly as possible.

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In the space that they see

in front of them where any

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player can make any decision.

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And it's really hard to defend that

because how do you defend something

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that you are never exposed to?

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So even in your practice field,

you're trying to mimic something

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that has been done before.

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So it's quite challenging.

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PSP: I also touched on the, in the

rugby v IQ and the intelligence of the

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players, which is at a very high level.

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And we saw that in the semi file

against New Zealand, where the

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team was very disciplined, not only

in the first half, but it took.

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Quite deep into the second half for the

team to accumulate their first penalty.

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Penalty.

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something that's not really seen in the

15 person game, a team that can go for

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so long without giving away a penalty.

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How does a team stay

locked in for so long?

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Magali Harvey: That's a tricky question.

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I think for one, Canada had a lot of ball

possession in the first half, and I think

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they, studied New Zealand very well.

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They knew that, okay, new Zealand's

gonna try to move it out wide.

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We have to stay vigilant.

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We have to watch around the breakdown,

and we can't cause extra penalties

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because they're such a tricky team to play

against as soon as you give them space.

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And so I think Canada was

all about shutting them down.

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And if you look at the defense, it's yes,

they come up, yes, they shut them down,

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but they also know that there's Porsche.

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Woodman's on the wings and Braxton

sent, I, I don't remember her name,

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I apologize, but very strong a very

strong back team that you cannot just

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come up and blitz on them necessarily.

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You sometimes have to track them

and give them to the sideline.

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So I think Canada did their

homework, understood how to shut

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them down when it's the forward

wing, when it's the backs playing.

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And then just to tire them out.

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I really think New Zealand was so

exhausted that they didn't have a

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choice but to do a lot of penalties,

to be able to slow down Canada

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and like playing with the rules

that sometimes they can get away.

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But the ref did a fantastic job at

seeing oh, I think they're tired

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and there's low key cheating.

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Let's actually penalize that

to make sure that it does not

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slow down the Canadian game.

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PSP: Yes.

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And hats off the referees for allowing

that type of play because sometimes you

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do see teams doing cynical things like

that when maybe they need a bit of energy.

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So yes, it was good to see

the play go on, as it were.

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Now you touched on the

six two split of the.

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can Canadian bench, six

forwards and two backs.

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It's almost like a refresh

of the forward pack.

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So it allows more energy upfront only

defensive pressure, but also create gaps.

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Do you think this style is here

to stay where we have teams?

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deploying, finishing squads off the bench.

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Magali Harvey: That's a good question.

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I suspect that teams that have

the player profile that Canada

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has, might start to consider this.

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What do I mean by that is if you

look at England versus Canada,

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I'd say that England has very

traditional positions and they have

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experts in that specific position.

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Their props are very niche in being

a prop, and they do it really well.

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But they play as a prop.

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And I think there's a big, the big

difference between Canada and England.

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So for England, I don't think

there's value necessarily in their

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current situation to have six, six

floors of subs and two as backs.

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Because they're not looking to

play the fast paced, fast tempo.

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They're looking to play a classical

rugby with quality execution.

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I think if you look at Canada and

England, the game, it's gonna be kinda

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like a new variation of rugby, like

modern revolution ish with a classic

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rugby that's played extremely well.

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And so it'll be interesting

to see the final and how that

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plays out in terms of stars.

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'cause there's such

different style of play.

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PSP: Absolutely.

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And it is worth noting English coach John

Mitchell, he has been around, to give you

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context he's spent quite a bit of time in

the men's game when I was a season ticket

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holder for the Western Force in Perth.

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He was the inaugural

coach, so how about that?

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He's definitely.

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Taken lessons across all

corners of the globe.

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He's coached in the United States,

South Africa, England, now New Zealand.

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He was the All Blacks coach.

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He's worked in different areas.

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His style will be interesting

because I get the sense from what

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you're saying, that it's gonna be

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fast-paced style coming up against

English traditional fifteens style wear.

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If every place position has a particular

role where it's less fluid, how do you

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see that playing out if you don't mind?

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Magali Harvey: Yeah I think.

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We're talking about the top two

teams in the world right now.

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So to me, whichever team is able

to impose their dominance is gonna

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be the team that has a head start.

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And how I mean by that is if, because

if you look at the the first games of

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Canada, they did a lot of unfor errors.

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I think their first or second game,

no second game, they had I think 27

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unforced errors at the end of the game.

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That's a lot.

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27 turnovers.

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So if it's a game like that, I think

it'll be a hard one on Canadians.

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But if they're able to play like

they did against New Zealand with the

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momentum that they're having, then it's

gonna be a completely different game.

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And if they're able to impose their tempo,

I think English, that the English team.

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We'll get fatigued.

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They haven't played against a team like

Canada with such a high paced rugby.

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And so their forward pack eventually

will start to create gaps.

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And gaps is exactly what Canada's looking.

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They're going for the fast pace

they're looking to have any forward,

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take that gap and then just in, and

number nine, just pick and going.

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That eventually is gonna create gaps.

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But again, it depends how they come up.

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As for England, like they have a great

defense, they have a great attacks.

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It really depends.

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How will Canada defend them as well Have.

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Extremely strong players.

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So how is it gonna turn out?

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I have no idea.

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Really, it depends on which

team imposes their style first.

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PSP: And I will point out that when

England played Australia, having

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watched that game, I did find

that the red roses were a little

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bit sloppy in the first half.

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To be honest, I'm not sure what brought

that on, but I thought that a better team.

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taken advantage.

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The wallaroos are coming along, by

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gonna see much they've progressed from

their quarterfinal appearance here.

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But I really thought England were

vulnerable in those four first 40 minutes.

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It's a great point you raise, and I do

think those initial, changes of possession

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after kickoff will the tone as to what

kind of game we're gonna have in store.

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One thing that is for certain magali

is that we're gonna have 82,000 at

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Wickham, so that's gonna be a record

for the Women's Rugby World Cup, and

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believe the tournament attendance

is going to be a record as Well, So

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this tournament has definitely s.

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Kick points off the field.

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What has gone well for you in the

tournament from your observation?

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Magali Harvey: Well, a about the record,

by the way, it's 82,000 people attending.

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I think it is the second world.

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While that's men and

women crowd attendants.

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So it's not just women's rugby, I

really think it's rugby in general.

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Something to clarify

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I mean in my opinion,

rugby's like a marathon.

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And I think if I focus on the Canadians,

I think that every game has led to a more

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like a better execution from the team.

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Now it's gonna be the third game, or

they're playing with the same roster

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and they're not changing anything.

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And I think it's because the

coach has found the formula that

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he sees is the winning formula.

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It's a fast base game.

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It's a lot of players

that come from the sevens.

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And I think for Canada it's been really.

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Really great to be able to mix the

sevens and the fifteens program.

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Because anyone can play anything.

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It's basically, you have

10 fly halves on the field.

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You have the Sophie, the goods in

the second row you have the flankers

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that have all played sevens rugby.

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You have the scrum like.

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It's our back line is played seven's

rugby and so anyone can be any position

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that has been like really niche for

Canada and has helped them like play the

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style that has propelled them forward.

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PSP: How good is it seeing Sophie

kicking points from the luck position?

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That's, that takes me back to

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Magali Harvey: I.

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PSP: childhood.

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I remember that was a thing.

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yeah.

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It's so good to see the, it Is al

almost, you could say positionless.

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I don't wanna use that term

'cause everyone still has a

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role that they played to play at

scrum time at lineups, but it's.

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It's a lot more transformative.

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It's a lot more fluid and

it's definitely quite easy on

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the eye when you're watching.

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To Canada sticking to the, that

principle throughout the tournament.

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What would you say needs to

be improved though, because.

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I look at the pull stage, for example,

we saw a few blowouts some teams are

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still developing, and I'm sure that

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But what were some things that

you would like to see improved in

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the Rugby World Cup going forward?

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Magali Harvey: Yeah.

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As you said, like there's

a lot of blowouts.

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I think that.

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I think we only have six teams that

are semi-professional and professional.

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That means the, there's six teams.

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The, it is like working people or working

female athletes that show up after their

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work to try to represent their country.

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And this is the type of

blowout that you see.

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It's because it's such a big gap

between the semi-professional

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and the professionals and

the non-professionals at all.

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So if we want to have a quality World Cup

from beginning to end with tighter games,

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we have to have a lot more rugby going on

for even the tier three nations and say, I

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think it was only LA like in 2022, there's

the last, this is the first time that

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there was a quarter final Rugby World Cup,

so there's gonna be adjustments to make.

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Before then, you had 12 teams in the

World Cup, which means three pools,

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which meant you had to top your pool.

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In order to basically

make it to the semifinals.

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'cause there were no quarterfinals.

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And then I think like only the second,

like the, yeah, the first second

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would make it to the semifinal.

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Otherwise you were just eliminated.

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Even if you might not have lost again,

if you tied and someone had more scores,

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then it'd be a completely different game.

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So right now, I think from

having four additional teams.

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Yeah, there'll be some really questionable

scorelines, like it's not nice to see

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rugby at 60 zero, but I think if it's

part of the journey to increasing

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the amount of players and we have

to go through that to, to be able to

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increase that the rugby level over time.

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But it'll take time.

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PSP: Yes.

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you've raised a good point there

because the W 15, spelled WXV was

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introduced in 2023, and that, that

has allowed more competition among

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the top three tiers of rugby.

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But , there are still some gaps

as you mentioned, and guess when I

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look at the Canadian experience, it.

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The something unprofessional aspect

has probably held things back.

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Would you agree?

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Magali Harvey: I think people are starting

to see women's rugby as women's rugby.

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I think there was a time where

people would be so used to just

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watching men's rugby that when

they watch women's rugby, they were

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looking for men aspects to the game.

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And now that people are able to

appreciate and look for what is women's

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rugby and not compared to men's really

just see, okay, this is the value of

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women's rugby and treat it as such.

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I think that there'll be a wave of

new rugby fans that will be coming in.

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And with that wave means money.

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With money means more opportunities.

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More opportunities means higher levels.

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So I think it's gonna be kinda like A one

thing leads to the other a little bit.

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PSP: Sure, and I definitely co-sign

what you're saying there because

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when there is more visibility,

there's definitely going to be more

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investment and more dollars coming in.

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saying that though, I guess the adversity

that Team Canada had to overcome

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to get here was not on the field.

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It was off the field and it was dollars.

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The team.

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Pretty much crowdfunded their way to the

tournament, which is not a great look

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for Rugby Canada, if we're being honest.

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And for a number two team in the

world the talent out outweighed

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that, but at the same time it

should never have got to that.

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Magali Harvey: I'll interrupt

you there, although I agree.

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I think you're comparing

apples to oranges.

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If you look at an English team, you come

from an English rugby nation where it

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is in the English DNA to love rugby.

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People will just show up, know the

rules, know everything that's going on.

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And so when, I don't know when the English

woman or the English men national team

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play this is what funds their rugby union.

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This is what allows them to

give contracts to their players.

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Canada is not a rugby nation.

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It's not that Rugby Canada does

not want to have the players.

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They don't have the funds and so 2.6

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million for Rugby Canada is huge to

give to the women's team again because

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they do not have ways of making an

income that is not based on fundraising.

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As for the players, you're

right, they deserve so much more.

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I wish that we could say

that they have contracts.

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I wish that I could say that they

had enough funds so that once

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they finish their rugby career.

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Like they can buy a house, a have a

life and not have to start from scratch.

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And saying this it is really important

to understand that like those players

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have still worked just as hard, probably

more than the national contracted

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players from England and France

because they've had to sacrifice.

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Moving to a different

country, stopping their life.

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They've had to show up to the Rugby

Canada camps in order to receive money.

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'cause you only receive

money if you are at the camp.

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If you don't show up, you get nothing.

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At the semi-professional or professional

stage of the English League.

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You get a house, you get maybe your

flights, maybe your insurance, but

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you don't really make an income.

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You make a stipend of maybe

a thousand pounds a month.

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Like it's huge sacrifices.

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So those players, they are

there for the right reason.

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They're not there with a, an employee

salary and certainty and maternity leave.

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That's not what Canada can have.

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But it is not from Rugby Canada.

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It's just the context that

we're not a rugby nation and we

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cannot give this to the players.

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PSP: Canada is may not be a rugby

nation compared England, South

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Africa, Australia, those nations,

but it is a sporting nation.

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You think it might come from the corporate

world, as we may have seen in other

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countries like Australia and New Zealand?

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Magali Harvey: Yeah.

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So in, in saying this, I don't

think that Canada is like the us.

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I don't think that there are

huge corporations that choose

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to sponsor national teams.

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It's not.

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It's not really a big thing in

saying this, doesn't make maybe this

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time around if Canada wins, maybe

it's gonna make a big difference.

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And we have received a lot of hype

and I think a lot of people feel very

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patriotic when their national team wins.

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I just hope that it's not just a temporary

bandwagon and the people still want

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to invest in women's rugby in Canada.

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PSP: A lot to think about, but before

we get to that, we do have the matter

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of the Rugby World Cup final tomorrow.

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We'll record on Friday.

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The game is on Saturday, 11:00

AM Eastern, 8:00 AM Pacific.

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Tweaking him in London.

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I'll be watching.

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Magali, please tell us where our

audience can find you on social media.

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Magali Harvey: Yeah, usually

I'm on Instagram at Mag Arve.

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I'm not much of a TikTok

person, so I don't know, like

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probably on Instagram, mag Arve.

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PSP: Fantastic.

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. Magali Harvey: Fantastic.

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Thank you so much for having me.

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Have a great day.