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Merging Coaching and Tech
Episode 7829th February 2024 • The Unified Team • Rob McPhillips
00:00:00 00:42:54

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What do you get if you combine data science, coaching and a team?

A happy team coached by Giannis Chatzidis.

Giannis is a Data Scientist. Team Leader. And a Coach.


He found purpose and joy in merging tech and coaching to help people reach their full potential.


He shares his journey and process in our conversation.

Transcripts

Giannis:

All started when I was like a leader in my team.

Giannis:

I've been leading the last five or six years.

Giannis:

Multicultural teams, if that makes sense in general, because the companies that

Giannis:

I work on is usually in the Netherlands, located, and through this leadership

Giannis:

journey and my one to ones with my team members I found them so viable, not

Giannis:

only for me, but especially for them.

Giannis:

I got a lot of energy out of them, meaning that the days that I had

Giannis:

one to ones with my teams was like probably the best days of the week.

Giannis:

This is how I was super eager to enhance the outcome of the one to ones and

Giannis:

everything around it, the questions to make it more interactive, et cetera.

Giannis:

And this is how I met coaching, so I was starting searching about ways to

Giannis:

optimize those sessions, et cetera.

Giannis:

And 18 months ago, I started my coaching school.

Giannis:

So now I'm a certified team coach specializing in teams

Giannis:

and leadership mostly.

Giannis:

I'm still a lead data scientist and the combination of two is like

Giannis:

inside my coaching sessions, I use a lot of AI and tech tools.

Giannis:

To make the whole session more interactive, more fun less boring.

Giannis:

Let's say, this is the power of Coach Tech, I call it.

Giannis:

And this is how, I use it inside

Rob:

my sessions.

Giannis:

The hot

Rob:

trend.

Rob:

Yeah, I bet it is.

Giannis:

I'm still working as a lead data scientist.

Giannis:

It's part time and I'm transitioning to a full time team coach

Rob:

so as a data scientist, I'm guessing that you look for patterns and

Rob:

you try to connect the dots on data.

Rob:

And then you've translated that into doing that with people.

Giannis:

Numbers and data always tell the truth.

Giannis:

Data scientist is mostly about, creating AI applications, products, et cetera,

Giannis:

around around data just to support people.

Giannis:

And this is how it goes with the coaching part.

Giannis:

You just collect the data inside the session, like some prompts

Giannis:

or let's say the main pain point that the coachee or the team has.

Giannis:

I'm trying to translate those data into an image.

Giannis:

Or into an application or, to reflect their words themselves, like an image

Giannis:

or like a poem generated by AI or, something that, they will see their

Giannis:

problem and they will face it immediately.

Giannis:

Because sometimes we have a challenge, but we cannot visualize it.

Giannis:

We cannot, let's say, dreaming of this challenge, but if we see an

Giannis:

image and we see ourselves inside an image or inside a written poem or

Giannis:

something usually it's more easy to do some reflections and to come to

Rob:

an action.

Rob:

So what you're really trying to do is speak to someone in the language

Rob:

that they're going to receive best.

Rob:

So whether that's an image or whether that's a poem or, whatever this is really

Rob:

interesting because something I've been thinking about recently is, the difference

Rob:

between maths and English and where I've noticed a lot of people struggle.

Rob:

Like my daughters really struggle with maths and I think where people

Rob:

struggle with maths is because they don't realize it's a different language.

Rob:

In English you'd say something in it and it will be rich language and it'll

Rob:

be a story because it's got a hero.

Rob:

It's got a context and it's very concrete so someone can get to grips with it.

Rob:

But in maths an equation is.

Rob:

The purest is only the truth and only the universal and

Rob:

everything else is taken out.

Rob:

And so it describes the same thing, but it's applicable in every context because

Rob:

as soon as it's not applicable in the context, the equation is no longer true.

Rob:

That's interesting.

Rob:

And then some people are artistic, some people are creative and

Rob:

you have to meet people with.

Rob:

Whatever speaks to them.

Rob:

Yeah, so that makes sense.

Giannis:

It's mostly to speak the coachee's language.

Giannis:

Probably, a simple prompt by a coachee is I really want to stress less.

Giannis:

Okay, what makes you stressed?

Giannis:

What's make it so important for you or something and based on the answers They

Giannis:

can create an image, let's say, Rob, who is, let's say, really stressed and how

Giannis:

Rob imagines his situation when he's not stressed, And you reflect in two images,

Giannis:

for example, Rob is stressed, Rob is not stressed And reflect those images to

Giannis:

the coachee and ask a lot of questions.

Giannis:

Or how do you think, what do you see inside these images?

Giannis:

How would you like to see yourself when you're not stressed or something?

Giannis:

Those really simple questions where the coachee, okay sees two images, he's

Giannis:

really impressed and dive deeper inside the first image was super stressed.

Giannis:

But he would like to go to the second phase, which like take some

Giannis:

actions and not get stressed anymore or something, or get less stressed.

Giannis:

This is how it goes in terms of where you are and where you would like to go.

Giannis:

So it's two stages where, it's in coaching, it's still

Giannis:

important to to measure the outcome that you want to achieve.

Giannis:

This is how it goes.

Giannis:

You are, let's say in five and you would like to go in eight.

Giannis:

Okay.

Giannis:

What's the difference between five and eight?

Giannis:

What actions, let's say can fulfilled this gap.

Rob:

When you initially took started doing one to ones, did you have the

Rob:

same enthusiasm for them or is it, was it a process that you had to learn?

Rob:

I was super enthusiastic.

Rob:

Right from the start?

Rob:

Yeah,

Giannis:

I was from the start.

Giannis:

Yeah, because it was like a time not for me and someone else.

Giannis:

It was a time for my team members to speak out.

Giannis:

And this is super important for someone working, let's say, in 9 5.

Giannis:

To have, let's say, a stage and a microphone where the stage belongs

Giannis:

to them and they have the opportunity to speak out, to say things about

Giannis:

professionally, but also personally.

Giannis:

This connection between a leader and a member is for me, super special

Giannis:

because at the end of the day, it's a human connection, right?

Giannis:

Leadership is a human connection.

Giannis:

So building this human connection and, have a thriving human

Giannis:

connection with your team members.

Giannis:

For me, it's super important because this is how you are able

Giannis:

to get the best out of every

Rob:

member.

Rob:

And that was all remote, because you said the rest of your

Rob:

team are in the Netherlands.

Giannis:

We're around the world, actually.

Giannis:

It's some Netherlands, in Greece Africa, UK.

Giannis:

Yeah, around the world.

Rob:

So that was naturally something that you enjoyed and then that

Rob:

became your favorite part of the day.

Rob:

How did you then go from that into coaching?

Giannis:

I was searching for ways to optimize these sessions.

Giannis:

Initially I was watching a lot of YouTube videos about other coaches or how to

Giannis:

enhance your 1:1 with your team members.

Giannis:

How to create a safe environment with your team members through your one on

Giannis:

ones, what the best questions, et cetera.

Giannis:

I realized that this is my inner piece of puzzle that was always missing.

Giannis:

I always wanted to support and help people.

Giannis:

To get the best out of them, and yeah, I was searching about, how go, let's say in

Giannis:

mentorship, in coaching, in consulting, in advising or something like that.

Giannis:

And finally I realized after analyzing all of this super detailed aspects

Giannis:

because the difference between, coaching, consulting, and mentorship is

Giannis:

small details, but big the same time.

Giannis:

I realized that coaching is the one that fits to my personality, to my

Giannis:

way of supporting the other people.

Giannis:

And this is how I went to coaching school.

Rob:

When you saw that, that it fit with your personality, I'm guessing that

Rob:

there were examples of that when you were younger in life, where that kind

Rob:

of coaching mentality, that bringing out the best in others was did you

Rob:

have younger brothers and sisters?

Rob:

Was there examples of where you were put in that

Giannis:

role?

Giannis:

Yeah great question, when I was 17, I wanted to be a

Giannis:

dentist or a doctor in general.

Giannis:

So behind of this was like my willingness to support people and

Giannis:

to have a special impact to people.

Giannis:

I failed twice and finally studied AI, computer science, et

Giannis:

cetera, with a master's degree.

Giannis:

With the vision to combine health with data again.

Giannis:

So health was like super important for me.

Giannis:

And after that inside my one to ones I started I started getting

Giannis:

a lot of attention to the mental health of employees and this is

Giannis:

how this eagerness, did spark.

Giannis:

And always, I'm a guy that I hate advices.

Giannis:

I don't really like to give.

Giannis:

Advices unless it's super important for the receiver.

Giannis:

So you come to me and say, okay, give me an advice, heads up or something.

Giannis:

So if it's not your final goal I'm not giving advices.

Giannis:

I'm just asking questions to help you to find your own solution, your

Giannis:

best action for you, let's say, and not the best action for me.

Giannis:

Because the best action for me is not always the best action for someone

Rob:

else.

Rob:

What did you learn most from the coaching process?

Giannis:

Yeah, a lot.

Giannis:

First is to cultivate a safe and trust environment where everyone is able to

Giannis:

share without feeling any judgment or feeling, let's say that everything is

Giannis:

going to get in public or something or any gossip, intuitions, et cetera.

Giannis:

So to build a safe and trust environment, this also applies in leadership as well.

Giannis:

And the second is show empathy and compassion because there

Giannis:

are two different things.

Giannis:

And yeah, I think you should show empathy as a coach, as well as a leader.

Giannis:

And it's really important to put yourself in other shoes, but not being Giannis.

Giannis:

Being Rob, so I cannot wear your shoes like being Giannis because I'm going

Giannis:

to give you advice like Giannis, right?

Giannis:

But I have to wear your shoes and have your own way of thinking,

Giannis:

your own way of acting, reacting.

Giannis:

Your data of your environment.

Giannis:

This is how I can understand how you feel and how you want to act you know.

Giannis:

And the third one is The Q& A part.

Giannis:

I really feel the Q& A the question answer part.

Giannis:

A really typical question is like, where would you do if you were me?

Giannis:

Every time that we are in, let's say, in a friend zone or something,

Giannis:

or in a friendship relationship or in a love relationship or something.

Giannis:

The first question that we ask, okay, I have this issue, where

Giannis:

would you do if you were me?

Giannis:

And people usually because they are busy or they want fast advice

Giannis:

and ready advice or something, they want to hear what we do.

Giannis:

The only thing that I learned is like asking questions.

Giannis:

and deep questions and dig deeper inside, the main challenge that the other person

Giannis:

has is the way to move forward is the way to take some action and not just tell

Giannis:

something and that's the end of the story.

Giannis:

No, this is not the end of the story because the story has a lot

Giannis:

of aspects, you have to dig deeper.

Giannis:

The deeper you go, the better, in order to find how the other person feels,

Giannis:

acts understands a lot of situation around in the environment, et cetera.

Giannis:

Yeah, I think those are the three things that I learned.

Giannis:

Of course, there are much more, but I think those are the.

Rob:

The best.

Rob:

I heard once if someone's coming to you about something that you

Rob:

know a lot more about than them.

Rob:

When they ask a question, you should always challenge the context,

Rob:

rather than answer the question.

Rob:

If someone's new to a topic, they don't generally know enough

Rob:

to ask the right question.

Rob:

Often the question someone asks shows the level of knowledge that they have

Rob:

and it's usually the wrong question.

Rob:

If someone's new to a topic, they'll ask a beginner's question.

Rob:

Whereas someone who's say an expert, they'll look at the same question and

Rob:

say you're asking the wrong question.

Rob:

We can often get in the trap of answering people's questions when often what

Rob:

we really need to do is challenge the context in which the question was asked.

Giannis:

Also, I think it's super important.

Giannis:

Yeah.

Giannis:

How do you set to challenge the other person?

Giannis:

Okay.

Giannis:

I have a vision about, becoming a top team coach, let's say, for example,

Giannis:

okay, but let's challenge this my vision and my mission, what makes you

Giannis:

super driven of being a team coach?

Giannis:

What, how is it going to happen if you don't become a team coach?

Giannis:

It's a lot of, there are a lot of challenging questions and aspects.

Giannis:

Through a vision, a mission or an action or something.

Giannis:

And the super important thing as well is to not listen to what is being said,

Giannis:

but listening to what is not being said.

Giannis:

The underwaters, it's something like you feel that, Giannis

Giannis:

has a procrastination feeling.

Giannis:

Okay, just breaking the surface, what does procrastination mean to you?

Giannis:

Let's say, what's how does it affect your daily life?

Giannis:

It's what is not being said most of the times more important than what's said.

Giannis:

And same in leadership.

Giannis:

And a team was not where nobody speaks out.

Giannis:

It's not a high performing team.

Giannis:

It's the other way

Rob:

around.

Rob:

Very true.

Rob:

So that makes me question what has been the biggest impact for you?

Rob:

In your journey on you personally,

Giannis:

The biggest impact in my journey as a leader or in my journey as a coach.

Giannis:

In both.

Giannis:

In both.

Giannis:

Okay.

Giannis:

In my journey as a leader the biggest impact to myself.

Giannis:

Yeah, tough question, I think.

Giannis:

The way that I see my team members growing, this is what makes me

Giannis:

super happy and super motivated.

Giannis:

And not only inside the company, but outside the company, their personal lives,

Giannis:

where, when I see them, changing habits.

Giannis:

Changing their characters, their way of communicating, acting, et cetera.

Giannis:

This is something, makes me super proud of them.

Giannis:

At the end of the day, this is what they want, because every time that

Giannis:

they hire someone I don't really care if they're super tech skilled

Giannis:

or they know how to write perfect code or something, or my goal is not.

Giannis:

After the six months period, let's say it was a probation period to

Giannis:

be, let's say, better in coding or in AI, but to be better persons,

Giannis:

specifically us as individuals.

Giannis:

When I get messages from my old team members, I go to this new

Giannis:

job or, I go this interview and I'm super happy and everything

Giannis:

started from you, blah, blah, blah.

Giannis:

I'm super grateful for, and I'm super proud of them, and yeah, I

Giannis:

think this is the the impact that I always wanted to help the people.

Giannis:

And when I have it, I'm, yeah, this is it.

Giannis:

I'm super fulfilled, and from the coaching part, I think more or less.

Giannis:

It's the same, when I see transformation to someone, so for example, I had

Giannis:

recently a team coaching session here in Greece and after 90 minutes, the

Giannis:

whole team finalized to an action to have a meeting once a month altogether

Giannis:

without the leader and we'll discuss their problems, their challenges, their

Giannis:

priorities, their vision, everything.

Giannis:

When they found this action, which was like it sounds super easy, right?

Giannis:

But for them, it wasn't because we've been there, let's say for 90 minutes

Giannis:

and talking, discussing trying to optimizing the approach, et cetera.

Giannis:

And when they found it, I saw nine faces, super smiley.

Giannis:

And that was the moment that I said, yeah, you did some, something right.

Giannis:

I don't know if I did everything right, but you did something right.

Giannis:

And that was the aha moment, let's say from the session that not only made

Giannis:

them happy and smiley, but made me super smiley inside my heart, soul,

Rob:

et cetera.

Rob:

So there's clearly that's to do with your purpose.

Rob:

So what is that tapping into in you?

Rob:

That's the thing that brings you purpose.

Rob:

That's makes you feel fulfilled.

Rob:

What you do for them is you make them happy.

Rob:

And what is that activating something in you?

Rob:

Are you aware of what that is?

Giannis:

Yeah, at the end of the day, every team and every leader wants to

Giannis:

be more productive, more high performer to bring more results, et cetera.

Giannis:

And also this is my goal.

Giannis:

In every session, so to yeah, to have, to be a better version

Giannis:

of themselves in general.

Rob:

So I have this theory that everything we do comes down to about,

Rob:

probably about eight to 10 currencies.

Rob:

It's recognition, it's care it's love, it's respect.

Rob:

So I'm guessing for you it's feeling valued.

Giannis:

Feeling valued.

Giannis:

Do you mean to me or to

Rob:

others?

Rob:

I think it's about value as in you providing value and feeling that

Rob:

you're being a personal value.

Giannis:

It's mostly about unlocking what is really hidden in your personality

Giannis:

and helping you to see what's unfolded.

Rob:

So it's a chef who has a certain set of ingredients.

Rob:

They can bring a recipe that makes a higher or less lower value meal.

Rob:

My interpretation is that you like being valuable as in producing

Rob:

value and unlocking value in people.

Giannis:

I think it is.

Giannis:

Yeah.

Giannis:

It sounds simple.

Giannis:

It sounds simple.

Rob:

I think people are simple.

Rob:

I think there's only a few motivations people have.

Rob:

But we cloud it . We often feel that we shouldn't have that.

Rob:

And we feel that we have to present some noble intention.

Rob:

If you talk to people about why they do what they do,

Rob:

they'll talk to you with logic.

Rob:

And when they talk with logic, it's not really what they're talking about.

Rob:

They're talking about the rationale that they've given that they feel is

Rob:

acceptable, but it doesn't, it's not really what excites them inside them.

Giannis:

For me, leadership is, should be emotional.

Giannis:

It should be driven by emotions.

Giannis:

Of course, there are a lot of times when you have to balance both.

Giannis:

Rational decisions, emotional decisions, etc.

Giannis:

But yeah, for me, leadership, because it's like a human to human

Giannis:

relationship, it should start by, understanding the other person's

Giannis:

emotions and how the other person feels.

Giannis:

In general, and the same applies in everything, in every lesson, it's okay,

Giannis:

and I totally agree with what you said, it's like people, the first thought

Giannis:

is like the rational one about what, it's acceptable by the society usually.

Giannis:

And what is like matching with the society believes actually.

Giannis:

And after that, you know what, when they start triggering themselves,

Giannis:

they will find something else that probably they're against this opinion.

Giannis:

Or they have, another opinion about that.

Giannis:

And this is what coaching actually does, bring to the surface, your own beliefs.

Giannis:

opinions, et cetera, and try to demolish them, split them in multiple factors and

Giannis:

understand, what, who am I actually, who am I at the end of the day as a person,

Giannis:

as a leader and where do I want to go.

Giannis:

That's my purpose in this life, let's say, in this position or something,

Giannis:

I think this is the most important.

Giannis:

And I think that my favorite question is just super similar.

Giannis:

It's what do you want to do?

Giannis:

Yeah.

Giannis:

Two X or something, what they want to become, what I had to do.

Giannis:

I want to be or something, it's like mostly four similar words

Giannis:

and you have An initial idea and the purpose in your life and

Rob:

in your journey,

Rob:

it's where all journey start.

Rob:

Isn't it?

Rob:

What do I want?

Rob:

Where am I?

Rob:

What do I want?

Rob:

How do I get there?

Rob:

And it really is that simple.

Rob:

The problem I think is a lot of people aren't clear on what they

Rob:

want and what they want is going to change as they go along the journey.

Rob:

Because when you start, you want this thing and you haven't really

Rob:

understood why you want it, but one of those like eight to 10 deep

Rob:

currencies, is why you want it.

Rob:

And then as you get closer, what you want changes because it wasn't

Rob:

really the thing that was just a symbol for what you really wanted.

Giannis:

I agree.

Giannis:

I agree, but this is a transformation and this is a part of the journey, right?

Giannis:

I'm a huge believer that, it would be super viable.

Giannis:

For the society, for for the world around, if we were able to change, a profession

Giannis:

or a work, let's say every five years.

Giannis:

For example, I was a leader.

Giannis:

I am a leader.

Giannis:

I want to, I really want to become a team coach, a leadership coach.

Giannis:

And probably through this journey, I will find something else.

Giannis:

And in five years from now, probably I would want to become something different.

Giannis:

And as you said, this is the start of the journey during this journey, probably

Giannis:

you will find something else, something more fascinating that, brings you

Giannis:

closer to your full potential, because I don't think that when I will be,

Giannis:

let's say 80 or 75 or something really older, I will be to my full potential.

Giannis:

I feel it's impossible, but every day or every year I want to be closer to it.

Giannis:

And this is how it goes to everyone.

Giannis:

It's not to find it, let's say in the next month or after two

Giannis:

sessions or after three sessions.

Giannis:

It's about get closer

Rob:

to it.

Rob:

Being quite a bit older than you I'm about 30 years in now.

Rob:

1993 I opened up a gym, so I trained in fitness.

Rob:

I then trained as a nutritionist.

Rob:

So I think it was about 1994 when I probably started

Rob:

training as a nutritionist.

Rob:

So I had fitness and I had nutrition and I barely used my nutrition qualification

Rob:

because I thought, what was the point?

Rob:

You write people diet plans and exercise plans and they do it for a

Rob:

little while and then they never stick.

Rob:

I went more into why don't people stick?

Rob:

So then I trained in therapy and I ended up instead of selling gym

Rob:

memberships, doing therapy, but to try and get to, cause I had a similar

Rob:

kind of purpose and wanting to see people be the most that they could be,

Rob:

I'm wanting to see people be happy.

Rob:

I did.

Rob:

Therapy, went into stress, motivation.

Rob:

Then I went back to uni studied psychology.

Rob:

And everyone in psychology was looking at mental health or criminology or alcoholism

Rob:

or addiction or something like that.

Rob:

And I was like, Freud said something that if all we do is look at problems, all

Rob:

we do is make people moderately unhappy.

Rob:

And I thought we want to look at.

Rob:

We need to have somewhere to lead people.

Rob:

I learned that happiness and I was quite lucky that it was when Marty Seligman was

Rob:

first coming out with authentic happiness.

Rob:

It was around the time when Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi.

Rob:

I can't pronounce his name, but when he came out with a concept of flow, and

Rob:

because before then all they'd been was like a study in the fifties, I can't

Rob:

even remember his name of optimal living.

Rob:

So there was very little information.

Rob:

That's when I got into coaching back in the early days.

Rob:

I don't know if you know of Thomas Leonard.

Rob:

I learned from him after he'd left the ICF, he wasn't happy with what it became

Rob:

and then he was set up his own thing.

Rob:

I saw what him and I was like, you're a genius, but I'm not that's not my style.

Rob:

It doesn't fit with my.

Rob:

I never identified in that same way as a coach.

Rob:

I just saw it as a useful tool to have.

Rob:

But I never felt like I embodied it.

Rob:

I never felt it was.

Rob:

I always felt like I wanted to know something and be able

Rob:

to pass on that knowledge.

Rob:

And coaching is a way that is able able to meet people where they are,

Rob:

but it's not it's part of, like it's, I just took it as a tool.

Rob:

Then I realized the real problem that people had was relationships, which then

Rob:

led me to conflict, which then I went into mediation and realized it was teams.

Rob:

I would say.

Rob:

There's always been a constant throughout what I've done and I think there's a

Rob:

constant in yours, in that it was one to ones and then it became coaching.

Rob:

I think there's a theme that runs through our life and I think our

Rob:

theme is probably set by what we feel is important, maybe in childhood.

Rob:

That's some significant experience.

Rob:

And from then we're.

Rob:

We look at different contexts, different ways of delivering it.

Rob:

But I think that there's a constant in us.

Rob:

Say for you, that constant seems to be about maximizing potential or

Rob:

yeah, unlocking potential or helping people because even if you look

Rob:

at health, health is about helping people be at their best, isn't it?

Rob:

I went fitness, nutrition, that's how you help people be at their best,

Rob:

whereas you can't because they don't stick to it, so what's the point?

Rob:

So I went into the mind more, which fitted more for me.

Giannis:

Yeah.

Giannis:

That's an incredible journey.

Giannis:

And, I just have to say that I really admire and appreciate people like you

Giannis:

when, and I think this is your example is a great example about, starting

Giannis:

from something I thought it was viable.

Giannis:

And it's viable still because I think nutrition is like a part of

Giannis:

our being and our well being, etc.

Giannis:

But after that you just dig deeper and deeper until you found, what you are

Giannis:

passionate about at the moment, because probably in five years or in 10 years

Giannis:

from now, you will find something else.

Giannis:

Probably you will go to neuropsychology or I don't know what comes later.

Rob:

It's also I think I have a deep sensitivity to failure.

Rob:

And there's something like when you're in a kind of a relationship therapist, coach,

Rob:

mediator, whatever there's, you have to you have to be able to detach yourself

Rob:

from someone else's results because otherwise you're trying to influence them.

Rob:

So you have to not care.

Rob:

You care while letting them hold direction.

Rob:

And I think I, I just found to work in nutrition, I would find that soul

Rob:

destroying where basically maybe if you're lucky one in 10 follows

Rob:

what you do, because especially I tend to go into things and I'm

Rob:

want to really understand it.

Rob:

And I'm like, okay, this is the absolute best.

Rob:

Nutrition is so complex and it's so demanding of people because

Rob:

the food supply that they have by default isn't very healthy.

Rob:

So you have to spend money on nutrition.

Rob:

You have to spend money on more food so that everything weighted against you.

Rob:

And.

Rob:

I don't think I could turn up every day to work and feel this doesn't work.

Rob:

Not like I, yeah, I can have pride in I've got an understanding and I can give you

Rob:

the best advice, but if no one takes it.

Rob:

It doesn't feel like you're making any value.

Rob:

I suppose it depends on how resilient you are, because some people really

Rob:

have a belief and they'll pursue that nutrition, even when people

Rob:

aren't getting results, not because of the fault of the nutritionist, but

Rob:

because they just don't stick to it.

Rob:

I suppose I'm detached from people like you can do what you want to do.

Rob:

I need to have enough ratio that enough people succeed.

Rob:

So I've always looked at it's like pushing the problem away.

Rob:

The problems there.

Rob:

How do I make the problem more and more minor by solving more and more problems?

Rob:

So I don't know how you've handled that in your.

Rob:

Journey, like how do you deal with maybe the term is not coachable

Rob:

or people who don't want to take advice or don't want to do what it

Rob:

takes to change their situation.

Giannis:

Yeah.

Giannis:

I think the word is coachable.

Giannis:

I'm not going to help or support someone who is not coachable, meaning that

Giannis:

if you don't want to change or if you don't want to take your leap of faith.

Giannis:

To take the next step or to start something.

Giannis:

I'm not the best guy for you.

Giannis:

I really want to work on with visionaries, bold people, change makers, people who

Giannis:

are, let's say, super eager to take the next step, to get the next step.

Giannis:

I usually say it's like detach from the results and attach to the process.

Rob:

Detach from the results, but attach to the process.

Rob:

Yeah.

Rob:

Yeah.

Giannis:

This is how I always say to my clients and to the teams.

Giannis:

It's not about, being 10 percent more productive on your daily base.

Giannis:

It's take the necessary steps and actions.

Giannis:

To become 10 percent more productive and the productivity will come somehow.

Giannis:

With some magic way, so it's not about, what you want to achieve, but it's

Giannis:

about how you're going to achieve it.

Giannis:

And yeah, I think from my side, it's.

Giannis:

It's almost the same.

Giannis:

So I really believe in people's potential.

Giannis:

I really believe in your potential, but firstly, you have

Giannis:

to believe in your potential.

Giannis:

I'm not going to tell you how to believe in your potential.

Giannis:

If you want to start believing your potential, yes.

Giannis:

Come to me because you have a vision, to start believing in yourself.

Giannis:

Start leading yourself better.

Giannis:

This is how it goes.

Giannis:

Because you want something.

Giannis:

But if you don't want anything

Giannis:

You are not the best guy for me Or I'm not the best guy for you, try to find

Giannis:

someone else Who is eager to give you some advice Or probably, fit your,

Giannis:

in your personality or doesn't fit in your personality, but please don't come

Giannis:

crying back to me and saying, okay, I gave X amount of dollars and money.

Giannis:

This advice doesn't fit my personality.

Giannis:

And what should they do now?

Giannis:

I don't know.

Giannis:

I'm not, an advisor or a guy who's going to tell you what to do.

Giannis:

I'm a guy who's going to help you to tell yourself what to

Rob:

do.

Rob:

In my experience with in relationships, for example there was a great need and

Rob:

a great market for people who had come out of a narcissistic relationship.

Rob:

And, but the difficulty is they are so traumatized.

Rob:

That it takes a really sensitive approach because they have a lack of belief and

Rob:

they're not in a place to be challenged.

Rob:

And there's a lot of people that need someone else to believe in them before

Rob:

they, they believe in themselves.

Rob:

A lot of people that have come from maybe an environment where

Rob:

no one's believed in them.

Rob:

Where, what you're looking for and your style is for the high flyer, the

Rob:

visionary, someone who wants to change something who's already had some success.

Rob:

So how would you define your ideal client and what are they

Rob:

grappling with at the moment?

Giannis:

As I said before, visionary, change maker, bold people leaders,

Giannis:

founders who really who are the team.

Giannis:

People centric mostly, and they really believe that people can make

Giannis:

a difference inside their company.

Giannis:

And this is how they're going to be more profitable and they're going to

Giannis:

have more clients and more clients results at the end of the day.

Giannis:

Because what every company wants is like to me to be more profitable, to

Giannis:

have a bigger bank account to be, let's say, cash flow positive, et cetera.

Giannis:

But you really have to believe in your most viable asset, which is your

Giannis:

people and together with your clients.

Giannis:

Because if you ask me, I would say both are super important for the

Giannis:

thriving company clients and team.

Giannis:

You should focus on both in order to have a thriving company and to

Giannis:

find the right balance between them.

Giannis:

But yeah, I totally agree with your previous statement about some,

Giannis:

in some cases we have some people who, nobody believed in them and

Giannis:

they want some support on that.

Giannis:

To be honest, I don't know if these people want coaching or therapy.

Giannis:

Yeah, I think this is a great dilemma.

Giannis:

this is also a situation because.

Giannis:

If nobody believed in you in the past, and you have this this habit and this limiting

Giannis:

belief that I'm suck and I cannot find my inner fulfillment, et cetera, because

Giannis:

I'm, I'd say I'm a failure or something.

Giannis:

And this is something that I heard a lot and in life coaching mostly.

Giannis:

I think for these people, in my opinion, it's like a combination of therapy

Giannis:

coaching is the best because therapy, that better for me, I'm not a therapist

Giannis:

or a psychologist or something, usually addresses the past and the present

Giannis:

while coaching goes present and future.

Giannis:

I think a combination of both for these people is.

Giannis:

is the best.

Giannis:

Of course, as coaches, we are going to give, let's say, a hand to these

Giannis:

people, okay, to rise them up.

Giannis:

But as a coach, it's like we're not here to study their past.

Giannis:

We're here to design their future.

Rob:

When you look at therapy you can look at all the different

Rob:

schools of therapy and they're pretty much have a similar, Success rate.

Rob:

What makes the success isn't the school of therapy.

Rob:

It's the warmth of the therapist is how trusting the bond this how safe

Rob:

the space the therapist can make and I suppose that's the same in coaching.

Rob:

In order to change because it's so inherently stressful and because

Rob:

it's so cognitively demanding and emotionally demanding.

Rob:

We need that space is like a refuge.

Rob:

If we go out and we take risks, we need somewhere safe, which is part of the value

Rob:

of a relationship is that a relationship is means that you have someone that

Rob:

has your back no matter what, like a romantic relationship, you have someone

Rob:

that's got your back no matter what.

Rob:

So you can go out and take risks in the world because you've

Rob:

got someone to cover for you.

Rob:

And I think that's what coaching does.

Rob:

And I think that's what therapy does.

Rob:

I think therapy has its place, but I also think it overspreads.

Rob:

I think a lot of people will go to a lot of therapists who are schooled in a

Rob:

certain thought of therapy and they'll frame everything in that thought,

Rob:

whether it's, it happened from your childhood or it happened because of these

Rob:

different parts or it happened because of, whatever kind of therapy, and often

Rob:

all they're doing is giving a story.

Rob:

And people can either become trapped in the story or they can go round and round.

Rob:

So they spend years telling different stories and seeing different therapies

Rob:

and getting different stories, but never actually changing what happens.

Rob:

I think you have to look at all of these things as tools.

Rob:

And I think we look at the big currency is we want.

Rob:

Like you and I want to help people make, we want to be of value to people.

Rob:

We want to see people thrive and optimize.

Rob:

And I, so I think the key is you have to look at what's their framework?

Rob:

What's their mentality of how are they thinking?

Rob:

What's the barrier?

Rob:

What's the block and what's the best way of getting over that?

Rob:

And for some people that will be therapy.

Rob:

For some people that will be coaching, for some people that will be mentoring

Rob:

mediation or facilitation or whatever.

Rob:

I think all of them are tools.

Rob:

Depending on the personality, depending on the situation they can all be used.

Rob:

But the main thing is they have to empower someone.

Rob:

They have to make someone.

Rob:

Take responsibility and help someone see how they can do

Rob:

better, be better, feel better.

Rob:

Yeah,

Giannis:

exactly.

Giannis:

Exactly.

Giannis:

Yeah.

Giannis:

It is the final goal for everyone, right?

Giannis:

Because everyone is like a different beast.

Giannis:

And from what we said before, and I think for everyone, everyone has the

Giannis:

same goal to, to see people change something, to see people grow, see people,

Giannis:

have more value and empower people.

Giannis:

Yeah.

Giannis:

I think it's mostly to find what, who beast fits better to your personality

Giannis:

and to what you want to be and carry on.

Giannis:

I have a motto saying every coach should have another coach, a therapist.

Giannis:

And the supervision, and I have a therapist, I have a life

Giannis:

coach, it's because I am a coach.

Giannis:

I can manage my own priorities, challenges, issues, it's, yeah, it's

Giannis:

not possible because Sometimes I did that from, I did that to the results

Giannis:

and this is a trap, so it's impossible to, to every time to say to do what

Giannis:

you say and to do what you believe.

Giannis:

I totally believe I have to go detach from the results, but there are

Giannis:

also some times where I chase the next dopamine hit, it's it's all of

Giannis:

this like a huge journey about work.

Giannis:

It's about getting closer to your full potential and if you have people around

Giannis:

you, helping you get closer to that, I think you are on the right, right path.

Rob:

We all have blind spots.

Rob:

People are a closed system and sometimes we need new information

Rob:

into that system to open it up.

Rob:

One of the things I always think of when there's always like new fads and

Rob:

this is the greatest thing and whatever, and I always think 2000 years ago you

Rob:

look at you like Jesus, the Buddha, Lao Tzu, people like that they went

Rob:

through the same things that everyone who's striving in personal development

Rob:

or spirituality or whichever field.

Rob:

It's basically the same thing and they didn't necessarily have therapists or

Rob:

coaches or something, but they had someone who was there was always their wise elder.

Rob:

There was always someone who'd been through it, the

Rob:

mentor those kinds of things.

Rob:

So I think I attach less significance to the actual label and more to

Rob:

the relationship and the key.

Rob:

And I think it is.

Rob:

In the end, all it is we all need to see beyond we need a fresh set of eyes.

Rob:

There's certain things that we can't look at ourself.

Rob:

And so I think that's what people like you and I can do is give people a different

Rob:

some different either idea or insight or fresh pair of eyes on their situation.

Giannis:

Yeah, exactly.

Giannis:

And if we look back at the history, we'll see a lot of fortune tellers, probably

Giannis:

it was in the mythology, we see Calchas Mopsus, a lot of fortune tellers in the

Giannis:

Greek mythology and you know what they did is like they they were looking at

Giannis:

the future, this is their charisma, let's say they're unique talent or something.

Giannis:

And people back then, they really needed these people.

Giannis:

They really had someone to tell them, probably in our imagination

Giannis:

is old man with, a white beard or something, and super wise and

Giannis:

from experiences, life, et cetera.

Giannis:

But everyone wanted someone like him, to support them, to tell some different

Giannis:

opinion, a different perspective.

Giannis:

To challenge them sometimes, to advise them, it's also fine, if

Giannis:

that fits to you and yeah, this is what all of us together do nowadays.

Giannis:

We don't have fortune tellers, we don't have Old man with white beard

Giannis:

or something, but we have coaches, we have therapists, mentors, consultants,

Giannis:

facilitators, whatever they are, and yeah, find what fits to your personality

Giannis:

and pick one, start with someone.

Giannis:

I think this is how it goes.

Giannis:

This is how you get closer to what you want.

Giannis:

It's not embarrassing to ask for help.

Giannis:

For me, it's like a superpower because personally, I didn't

Giannis:

ask for help as a leader.

Giannis:

It was a period that I was like, super bad as a leader.

Giannis:

And I really I understand it.

Giannis:

I understood it after some period and because I couldn't ask for help

Giannis:

and it's super bad, not only for me, but for the rest of the team, because

Giannis:

everyone is was living in the dark.

Giannis:

And I took the decisions.

Giannis:

I wanted to control everything.

Giannis:

I was like a control freak or something.

Giannis:

It's bring everything to the surface.

Giannis:

It's this is how it goes.

Giannis:

Like you said, I think in one of your posts, like we are like a computer

Giannis:

with a lot of history, with a lot of folders that we haven't met yet.

Giannis:

We haven't unfolded yet.

Giannis:

And it's time to double click, this is it, double click in those folders

Giannis:

and see what it is, what is inside.

Giannis:

Yeah.

Giannis:

It's, it sounds simple.

Giannis:

It seems simple, the first step is to start.

Rob:

Momentum has great power in it.

Rob:

Then just one more question before I let you go.

Rob:

You talked about like the old man with the white hair and all of this kind of thing.

Rob:

If you look at all the examples from culture, from films, from TV

Rob:

shows and things, who would be the character that you see yourself

Rob:

like or would like to be like?

Rob:

Like to be his old man.

Rob:

In your role as a coach and as a leader.

Rob:

Developing others.

Rob:

Is there a role model you want to be?

Rob:

A Yoda or do you wanna be a Gandalf or a Dumbledore or those kind of roles?

Rob:

Yeah,

Giannis:

yeah.

Giannis:

I understand your other question.

Giannis:

I always want to be, let's say, really invisible in the room.

Giannis:

This is my approach in coaching.

Giannis:

So I'm not a centric person.

Giannis:

The coach here, the team is the center of the session.

Giannis:

I don't want to talk a lot.

Giannis:

So it's like silence for me is power.

Giannis:

And do you remember the old man from Pocahontas film?

Rob:

I've never seen that, but Yeah,

Giannis:

I think this is it.

Giannis:

It's like an old man sitting at his chair and listening deeply with

Giannis:

Empathy and compassion and talks or ask questions whenever it's asked

Rob:

for that.

Rob:

Okay.

Rob:

Yes, that's that's why I saw with you have a noble strength and an ability

Rob:

a patience to wait for the result.

Rob:

I can see that.

Rob:

Okay.

Rob:

And if someone wanted to reach out and see if coaching with you would work for

Rob:

them where should they get in touch?

Rob:

What should they do?

Giannis:

LinkedIn is the best way.

Giannis:

It's Giannis Chatzidis and you can DM me ask your question, yeah, whatever,

Giannis:

my DM is always open, feel free, don't hesitate, it's not embarrassing.

Giannis:

It's fine.

Giannis:

So yeah, on

Rob:

LinkedIn is the best way.

Rob:

Thank you.

Rob:

Giannis is been fascinating to hear your journey to here.

Rob:

What makes you and I'm going to have to go and look at Pocahontas now.

Giannis:

Yeah, it was my pleasure.

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