They were still in PA school and decided to build something anyway.

Patrick and Lili started Be The Change, an organization focused on diversity and inclusion in the PA profession. The idea is simple and badly needed: a lot of students in underserved communities have never heard of this career, and the ones who have often don't know anyone who looks like them doing it. So they went and did something about it, including mentorship for pre-PAs.

I asked them how you actually start something like this while you're in didactic year, because "I have an idea" and "I have an organization" are very different things. Their answer was basically: make a plan, then be bolder than feels comfortable.

If you've been sitting on an idea, this is your push.

What we cover:

• Why they started Be The Change and what it does
• Getting a nonprofit idea off the ground while in PA school
• Reaching students who don't know the PA career exists
• Why cultural competence matters in patient care
• Finding mentorship when you don't see yourself represented
• How to start something without waiting until you're "qualified"

Resources:

Free Application Timeline: https://www.thepaplatform.com/services/free-application-timeline

PA Program Map: https://www.thepaplatform.com/pa-platform-map

Pre-PA Counseling: https://www.thepaplatform.com/services/pre-pa-counseling

Pre-PA Academy: https://prepaclub.thepaplatform.com/landing/academy

Mentioned in this episode:

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Have you had an idea of an organization you want to start or a movement you want to get involved with?

Something that you really want to do to make a difference?

Well, you can.

Today I'm talking to two PA students who started a new initiative at their.

Program and they are so inspiring.

Welcome to the Pre PA Club Podcast.

If you want to learn how to become a physician assistant, you're in the right place.

I'm your host, Savannah Perry.

Let's get started it.

Hey guys, before we get into today's episode, I want to make sure that you know about some of the things we have at the PA platform for you if you are working on your CASPA application.

Currently, we are doing a lot of supplemental reviews and experience detail reviews and Covid essay editing.

So if that's something you need help.

With, that link is in the description.

Make sure that you are also using all of the free blog posts and resources that we've put out over the past few years.

You've already found the podcast, but there's also videos on YouTube and tons of free downloads to make sure that this process is as easy as it can be.

So head to the paplatform.com or use the links in the description to find more about that.

All right, let's get into it.

And the podcast is back.

If you are a dedicated listener, you may have noticed that I took a few weeks off and it was really just due to a lot of things happening in my life all at the same time.

I was moving, buying a new house, selling our old house, Casper was opening, we had the virtual Prepa conference going on.

Lots of just things that essentially I.

To manage all that needed a little.

Break and as much as I love doing the podcast, it does take a lot of time.

So I took a little break from doing it for just a few weeks and now we are back with more episodes.

I have some that I've recorded to process and get posted for you guys in the next few weeks.

But also in the next couple weeks I'll be recording new episodes and new interviews that you'll get to hear in the fall.

So thanks for hanging around and welcome back.

I'm Savannah, by the way, Dermatology PA and the founder of the PA platform.

Today's episode is going to be really great because we're hearing from two students, both Patrick and Lily, and they did something really cool that I think a lot of people would be interested to hearing about.

So Patrick had reached out.

He is a PA student at Bay Path University and what they kind of did was create their own organization.

So they created an organization called Be.

The Change, which is a student led diversity and inclusion club that's not even just specific to PAs, but it's on a mission to increase awareness of the PA profession within underprivileged communities, diversify the next generation of medical providers, cultivate cultural competence, humility within our PA program and others, and provide mentorship and guidance to pre PA students with a focus on students from an underprivileged background.

Really awesome stuff.

So in today's conversation what we get into is how they did that.

I think a lot of us have ideas and plans and things that we would love to do or start or.

Create or get involved with and we.

Just don't know how to do it.

And so I'm very excited for you to hear from someone who has been in your shoes and actually took the actions necessary.

So I think you're really going to enjoy this.

And their Instagram handles are linked in the description so that you can make sure that you are able to connect if you have any questions or if you'd like to, you know, start something like Be the Change or start a chapter at your school.

So we'll get into our interview and I hope you guys enjoy it.

Hello.

Thank you for having us.

It's an amazing experience.

I. I think it's going to be great to kind of tell everybody about us and about our organization and just our experience into getting into PA school.

But my name is Lily.

I'm currently a second year student at Bay Path University.

PA student.

Just a little bit background about myself.

I am a first generation Mexican American college student so I definitely understand the struggle, you know, to get to PA school and I'm a huge advocate for, for increasing diversity and not only the physician assistant career but also just medicine and definitely love to mentor Latina any other minorities that are pursuing medicine.

Awesome.

Patrick, you want to go?

Yes.

Hello everyone and thank you Savannah for having us.

Definitely did a lot of research on a page platform as a prepaid.

It's great to.

It's funny how things, you know, came around.

So my name is Patrick Francis.

I'm a second year physician assistant at Baypat City.

I can't tell you how many said that in the doctor gear into clinical gear.

So a little about myself.

I too am a generation.

Student.

I am one of the, I am the first grandchild actually to graduate and get my not only under my bachelor's but also my master's soon to come.

I'm African American.

I am from a lower socioeconomic community.

And I understand how important it is to have people that look like me represent as medical providers.

I went to the UConn for my undergrad.

I got an economics degree.

Didn't really do much with it.

I wanted to do something in business, and.

And I was going towards that route.

Ended up working as a physical therapist aide for three years in sports medicine.

And that was something I really loved.

And I thought I was going into physical therapy.

Turned out to become a physician assistant.

And now we're here.

Nice.

Okay, that's awesome.

I like hearing y' all stories.

And we'll get into those a little bit more.

When do y' all graduate?

In May.

Yeah, we've got one more rotation to go, so we're.

We're right at the end.

Wow, Congrats.

That's so exciting.

Yeah, you're, like, at the light at the end of the tunnel.

Like, you can actually see the light.

So it's coming.

Yes.

The real world.

All right, so I want to hear a little bit more, and I think especially coming from you guys being first generation students.

And would you say you're like, the first in medicine in your family kind of thing?

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Okay.

Yeah.

So definitely the first in medicine, not the first to go to college, because my older brother was kind of the one who paved the way, but he's only a year and a half older, so both of us kind of figured out how to even apply to college.

Like, my parents didn't even go to middle school, so they came here from Mexico, and they really didn't know how to navigate the whole college experience, so we had to figure all of that out.

And then just kind of me wanting to pursue medicine was a whole different route because my older brother, he pursued a history degree, and he's now a teacher, so it was completely different.

He wasn't anyone that I could ask for.

For help, so I kind of just ended up doing a lot of Googling.

I definitely had some advisors in college who said that I should try to pursue a different career, but I feel like sometimes you kind of just find mentors in the places that you kind of least expect it at.

I was actually at an urgent care visit with my mom, and we ran into a PA that was the first time I had ever seen a PA in urgent care.

And he was actually of Latino heritage as well.

So he came in speaking to my mom in Spanish, and that just kind of made her so happy.

And that was kind of when I realized, like, this is what I want to do, like, I want to have this effect on patients.

And, you know, so I asked him on the spot, like, once he was done treating my mom, I was like, hey, you know, like, PA is a career choice that I'm kind of thinking about, like, can you help me?

Because I have no idea where to start.

And, you know, he was able to provide me his email, and it kind of just helped me go from there.

He helped me find so many different shadow experiences and even word to get started.

So that was amazing.

Was that when you were in college?

No, so that was actually there.

I had graduated from college.

I didn't really know much about the PA profession.

I majored in biology, and I completed for med school because, you know, that was the only thing that kind of was everybody was talking about.

But once I graduated, I think it was like my first year after graduation where I was kind of thinking, like, well, what am I going to really go into?

That's when I met him.

So I was able to kind of, you know, gain more experience with patients after talking to him.

Okay, interesting.

Yeah.

And we'll get into more of kind of your path to PA in a minute.

Patrick, how about you?

How did you.

Or when, since you were economics.

That's quite a switch.

When and how did you find out about PAs or I guess even health, thinking you wanted to be in health care?

Funny thing is, I grew up having a pediatrician who was African American, and.

He was a physician.

I had no clue.

So looking back on, like, medical records, I found it afterwards.

But to answer your question, I was deeply like, I wanted to.

I was on a route to physical therapy.

I really wanted to get my, you know, my doctorate, and I was working at hospital, Hospital for Special Surgery, and I just happened to just, you know, talk with my colleagues.

Like, the people I worked with, the physical therapists, they knew a PA next door who did a lot of shoulder surgery with a physician that was the New York Giants.

And she sent an email, and next day I was talking to him.

I had an interview, and we set up some times where we can actually set up a shadowing schedule.

And it just worked out like that.

It was as simple as that, to be honest.

Yeah.

Awesome.

Okay, cool.

When it came time for y' all to apply to PA school, can we talk a little bit just about that process, how you picked Bay Path as one of your programs, what.

What you were looking for, I guess, in a program, and then maybe just share, like, how many schools you applied to, what the results were, anything that helped you or you felt like was very difficult in the process because it is quite the process.

So I did that for three years.

And then I was also volunteering on the side like at clinics, at hospitals to kind of gain that experience.

But so my biggest thing was like not wanting to leave that job to go do like a job like an MA or like an emt, just because it's so it's not a good paying job.

And the job that I had was a good paying job, you know, and there's bills, there's loans, there's all of this.

So I had a lot to kind of weigh in and consider.

So I kind of was limited on the number of hours that school requirements had.

And that's kind of how I really chose the schools that I was going to apply to.

I applied to mainly schools in California, but Bay Path was like the one school that I was like, oh sure, I'll live in the East Coast.

And I just ended up applying to that one.

Just kind of like shooting my shot.

And I only got one interview.

I applied twice.

I think I applied to 12 schools each time.

The first, my first time applying, I didn't get any like callbacks.

I think I got wait listed for an interview, but I didn't get any interviews.

And I think it had a lot to do with like the number of hours that I had.

Didn't really make me that much of a competitive applicant.

But I decided to like continue what I was doing.

Volunteering.

And then my second year I kind of applied again to those similar schools, but I added Bay Path.

And so since I was working full time, a lot of the time that I spent at work was like completing my applications.

Just because in California, if you know anything about California, there's a lot about, there's a lot of traffic.

So sometimes I would get off of work around 5 and that's like the worst time to get off at work.

Cause it takes you two hours to get home.

So I would spend those two hours that it would take me to get home and just kind of researching everything.

So I would research the classes that were required, research which schools needed like an additional personal statement and things like that.

So I definitely Tried to use my time wisely for that, but it was, it was hard because like not knowing how to apply and just trying to figure that all out by myself was, was tough the first time around.

But the second time around it was much easier.

Nice.

All right.

What about you, Patrick?

It was honestly pretty unique.

I, the way I look at it is like, you know, you kind of walk into an arena and they tell you to learn a new sport like right on the spot.

Like it was totally, it was, I was self teaching myself, you know, the whole time.

And I think what like the hardest part was just like not knowing anyone that would want to take on, you know, a pre PA student to kind of guide.

And the good thing about like how like I guess when you get into the profession and you start to look on Instagram, there's so many people that are like, you know, these prepa, you know, I guess guidance counselors or whatever you want to call it, like they're, they're good resources and I didn't know anything about that.

A lot of my like information came from the PA platform, came from the physician assistant forum.

Countless amount amounts of Google searches just kind of helped me figure out how exactly I would stand out because I didn't have the best gpa.

I had like B minus average GPA coming out of college and I had to figure out, okay, well if I do a lot of community outreach work and do countless amount of volunteering hours in the ed and just work as much as I could within a year because I only applied one time.

So I applied to seven schools and basically what created my, I guess search was I didn't want to take the gre.

I was, I was like preparing for it, but you know, I really didn't want to take it.

I'm very honest.

It's reasonable.

Yeah.

So I applied to seven schools in the northeast that mostly in New York and Massachusetts and I think one in Virginia as well.

And I only got one interview and that was Bay Path.

And I was happy with my choice because when I went to they have like a grand rounds that they invite pre PA students just to kind of get a sense of the culture and I guess you can kind of speak with the students and also the faculty and it just felt like home, you know, to be honest with you, it didn't seem like they were only looking for grades.

And that's what I love about baypath because like when our faculty is very small, we are tight knit like group and actually our clinical director, her name is Teresa.

I call her mama T. That's how close we are.

Like, she honestly just like embraced me from the beginning and you know, that's.

That's how I got here.

That's awesome.

Can y' all give a little overview of Bay Path?

Just like how many are in your class, how long it is?

Anything cool about the program that you think people would want to know about?

Yeah, so our class is about 30 students, I believe we're a 24 month program.

And like Patrick was saying, I think it's very awesome that we're so, so tight knit.

Like he was saying, like, Teresa is literally like everyone's mom.

She's our clinical director and she's just so amazing.

Like, she takes it very serious to kind of get to know everybody and kind of guide them through their journey through PA school.

Because it's such a journey that changes you.

And I think what's really cool about our program now is that we have this be the change organization that we're kind of, you know, trying to change medicine as a whole, but we're kind of implementing it in our program first.

So we're making small changes to kind of diversify medicine.

And you know, that's a really cool thing for minority students to kind of look forward to and look forward to in a program having this organization that kind of supports them and guides them.

Are you guys the masterminds behind this?

We are.

So Lily is like one of the creators.

She did.

She was like, so.

And she was instrumental in become like being recognized as an actual club by the university.

So it was.

She.

She's one of those where I, I always give her the big props because without her, you know, the administrative, like, she's the administrative mind and also she's the, she's a mastermind of our Instagram page as well, which I have up there.

You probably can't see it.

I put it in green.

We'll make sure it's in the description.

No worries.

Yeah, I was, I mean, Patrick is the president, so he's giving me a lot of credit.

But he's.

He's the president.

He's kind of been holding the fort down.

But I, you know, I just kind of, when I get an idea, I kind of just have to run with it.

And you know, I thought this was a great idea and I thought we should incorporate it.

And so kind of, it's kind of just went from this tiny idea and it snowballed into this amazing organization that we have now.

Is it.

Does it go beyond just the PA program or is it something kind of within the program.

So right now it's only something within the program, but we are recognized by the school.

So the school has, like, the undergraduate clubs.

So we do open the meetings up to undergraduates occasionally, mostly to those who are interested, like in medicine or the pre PA track.

Okay.

Is there a specific mission statement or kind of overview that y' all can go over with kind of what.

What your organization is about?

Absolutely.

So be the change seeks to cultivate cultural compatibility.

And I'll describe what that means within PA students and clinicians while actively working to eliminate the inequalities found within healthcare.

So cultural, like the compatibility portion.

We were doing some, like, research, and we didn't want to just stick with, like, cultural competence.

You know, it's deeper than that.

So we, you know, we were looking.

We found something that was supported by, like, I guess the nursing.

American Nursing association created the.

Basically a synergistic process or components of these two words.

So like competence and humility.

And essentially it permeates the five pillars of cultural awareness, cultural desire, cultural encounters, knowledge and skill.

Okay, so is.

So how.

How.

What do you all do as far as an organization?

What and what is your vision and kind of y' all are about to graduate.

Where does this go from here kind of thing?

Yeah, so definitely, I think that was one of the things that we were really scared of that, you know, once we graduated, then, you know, the movement was kind of going to be on hold.

But so far, we've kind of been working within the faculty to kind of make small changes even to, like, the admissions criteria.

So we added some, you know, how there's sometimes ethical questions or ethical dilemmas in the interview process.

We added a diversity component to that.

So we were able to add a few questions into that.

We are also incorporating this lecture series, which actually my roommate kind of had the great idea of.

So every month we have our grand round presentations, and every month we're having a presentation on either a person's culture, LGBT rights.

What else have we had?

We have.

So what we recently did, we actually, we've been doing a lot of, like, opening up a lot of the spaces virtually where we invite prepa students.

We do a lot of guidance recently.

We had a couple of those.

We recently just have been speaking with the faculty about some changes for the coming year and beyond as well.

We've been doing a lot of work, a lot of work with inviting guest Speakers for the lgbtq, which has been really nice.

And we're, like, in the midst of implementing a lot more components of the public health portion of our school.

And I think that's one of the.

That's one of the unique things about baypath as well, is that we have faculty that basically, in the first semester, they take us through a lot of different aspects of how basically public health plays into the factor of how best to treat your patients.

So that's one thing as well that we want to continue to expand.

Expand upon.

Yeah.

So we have actually, since we are graduating, we actually just recently had elections for the new E Board to kind of, you know, make sure that the traction keeps going.

But we are hosting, I would say, maybe monthly meetings where we kind of just meet.

We have zoom meetings like this, and we just discuss current, like, hot topics that are going on in the media.

Really, anything that we find a discrepancy.

I think the last meeting that they had was on Tuesday, and I think we talked about the under diagnosis of endometriosis in women of color.

So we just kind of have discussions like that, that kind of relate to medicine, but also relate to the public health aspect.

Yeah, like, good round, roundtable discussion type things.

Awesome.

That's amazing.

And I'm like, y' all are such go getters.

Like, I love that y' all just thought of something and started.

I think a lot of people have ideas and would love to act on them, but maybe just don't really know how or ever really take initiative to.

To take those next steps.

Do you have any advice for those types of people who are like, oh, yeah, I would love to do this at my school, but then they don't know what to do.

I would say, like, if you have a plan, like, if you have an idea, you have to develop a plan, because without a plan, you really can't, you know, reach your end goal.

I think our goal of our organization really would be to, like, have one of our organizations in every PA program.

Like, that would be, like, the most amazing goal, you know, so if there are students out there, like, in other programs who are kind of thinking of creating a similar organization within their program, like, they should feel free to reach out to us, and we would definitely be able to help with that.

But definitely, I think it's necessary to have a plan and just kind of sticking through it.

That is great advice.

Yeah, I agree.

I honestly would just say be bold.

Be as bold as you can, because, you know, nothing gets done if you just.

If you.

If you just, you're living within your thoughts.

I would say find allies.

You know, usually everyone in PA school has like a buddy and you know, that's kind of how this worked.

Like it was like me and Lily are close and then a lot of our other colleagues are really close.

So we all, some of us are like minded, others aren't.

I would say find the like minded people and you know, if you have something that you want to change, I honestly feel like it depends by the, the program.

But if you have a good relationship with your faculty, that would be like a good, a good start.

Which is like just having like a down to earth conversation with them and seeing, you know, you know, what they can do for you and if they're receptive to it, because not every program will be.

But like Lily said, if you have any difficulties, reach out to us.

We can provide an email and we have a Instagram page as well you can follow.

Yeah, that's.

I love that your program was so receptive in your faculty because like you said, I don't in some cases.

That's not always the case.

I hear some horror stories about programs and faculty.

Unfortunately, it shouldn't be like that.

But, you know, everybody's different.

Whatever.

So anyway, let's, if, if we can, let's talk about.

It hasn't given me a warning yet.

Let's talk a little bit about diversity in the profession because I know over the past year that's something that has definitely been talked about a lot more than I think in the past.

And I'm sure y' all know or have seen the stats about how the PA profession, if anything, has become less diverse over the past few years, which is weird.

Like that doesn't make any sense.

And I don't know if y' all had any, any thoughts on that.

I've done some very, what's the word, unofficial research, which is just talking to people and taking polls.

And I think the problem, one of the problems is that a lot of people just don't know about the PA profession and it would be such a great option for so many people, but they don't know until it's too late.

I mean, like, you guys didn't decide to be PAs until after you graduated.

And the PAEA reports, it's a pretty even split of the majority of people not deciding to be PAs until the last two years of college or after college.

And so I don't know what Yalls thoughts are on that or any other reasons why this profession has not become more diverse.

I Definitely think it has a lot to do with the knowledge and like, knowing that this career is present.

As I mentioned from my own experience, I didn't know that it was an option.

So my only option was like, med school or nothing until, you know, I found out that there was other options.

And that's kind of a problem that we are trying to solve as be the change.

We've actually met with a few high school and even middle school programs to kind of just let them know that this profession is out there and just letting people know that there are so many other ways to practice medicine.

I think that just will inanimately increase the diversity in any medical profession.

Yeah, I agree.

I think it has that the awareness is the biggest component.

I know that like, another portion of it is just.

There's such.

It's so competitive, you know, and a lot.

And unfortunately because of like, you know, different components of there being poor, like poorly distributed resources for education within, like those that are of these lower socioeconomic status that plays a role into their grades.

And it's really difficult, like, to kind of maneuver when you have such a tight space when it comes to, like, being competitive, but then having to get these many hours.

And especially I know for a fact that this year, because of COVID I expect the diversity kind of probably go down a little bit more because it's so difficult to get clinical hours now, you know, for students.

So I think it's really, really like our job to step to the plate and still and just have as many conversations as possible with everyone.

Virtually now it's clicking a mouse and you don't have to really have to go, so you don't have to travel too far to find these people.

That's the great thing about technology.

So just continue having these prepa.

These meetings, and then hopefully we can just change it.

Yeah.

And this year I've talked to a lot more high school groups than in the past.

And I don't know if it's because of the virtual or they're just.

I don't have any more interest.

I don't know.

But it's.

It's very interesting talking to them.

And I.

Sometimes I forget that I'm talking to high school students, like, some of their questions, which.

But it's great.

Like, I love that they are thinking about what they want to do and exploring options because it's interesting.

I've said this recently somewhere, but I applied to PA school 10 years ago.

This.

This cycle was 10 years ago.

And I just.

That is just crazy to Me, because back then I thought, oh, my gosh, this is such a complicated process.

There's so much to it.

There's not enough information.

Why is this so like this, with the different deadlines and prereqs and letter recommendation requirements?

Like, it's so much.

And I honestly, at that point in time, like, I would have lost money if you bet me that it would be more complicated now versus easier.

I would.

I would have lost a hundred bucks.

Like, I would have said, surely they're going to make this better.

You know, And I think it's just been the opposite.

Like, there's more requirements, there's more confusion.

There's.

Me.

Yeah.

There's more people on social media and probably more on Google, but it's.

They make it really hard to become a P.A.

To be honest, they've been doing a little bit better.

As far as.

Like, I know there's been some Casper fee waivers that I've been like, yeah, the cost.

They're trying to help, I think.

Yeah.

And I think that's a. I know, right?

That's.

That's one of the components, too.

Like, it's just like, you can have a dream, you can want it, you can have the passion, but if you don't have the funds, what can you do about it?

You know, it's.

Yeah.

And like Lily said, like, the jobs that they require you to have basically to become a PA don't pay much of anything.

They're not very livable jobs.

Or to get one, you have to do a certification, which is also expensive and very time consuming.

So, yeah, my.

My.

My hope and wish would be that at some point they standardize it more because.

Because med school applications are so much more standardized.

They have early acceptance, which is nice because you.

I.

Because my husband went through it, but they.

You can apply to one school as early admission.

You can only do one, and if you get accepted to that school, you go there.

But, you know, the mcat, there's one test for every school that you have to do.

There's.

The courses are much more standardized, and so I just.

I would.

I wish that PA schools could.

Could hop on that, too, but who knows?

Yeah.

Maybe one day.

Well, y' all are awesome.

What's next for Yaddy?

Have jobs?

Are you looking?

Where do you see yourself going from here?

I would like to go into orthotrauma.

You know, it's always been ortho has always been my thing, so I'm hoping to apply to a residency program for a year, and then I'm not sure where.

I don't have a job.

Be honest with you.

I'm kind of stressed about that, but I look forward to doing that for my first year and then maybe doing some other per diem jobs because these loans have to go.

Yep.

Yeah, same.

I don't have a job lined up yet.

And I think we were just talking about this yesterday with Patrick.

I was like, I'm stressed out.

I feel like you kind of through PA school, you just go through constant stress.

Yeah, it's stress with didactic year, stress with clinical year, and now it's like stress with passing the pants and getting a job.

So, you know, I'm just taking it as.

Taking as.

As it comes.

You know, it's a.

It's another hurdle that I got to get through.

But I'm really interested in inpatient medicine, so.

Yeah, looking forward to that.

Or plastic surgery.

I took.

I had a plastic surgery rotation, and it was so much fun.

So I definitely could see myself in either of those two for sure.

Nice.

I'm a surgery lover, so, yes, do that.

But, yeah, y'.

All.

Y' all are awesome.

Tell everybody where they can follow you, and I'll.

I'll make sure everything's in the description and post stuff.

But where can.

Where can people kind of find you?

And I'm sure they will have plenty of questions.

So I actually have my finsta.

I guess you could say It's a pre pa account.

It's Lilly lili.pa.blog.

But you could also follow the be the change account, which I also manage.

I'm on my phone all the time.

It is Be the Change underscore pa okay.

Awesome.

I don't have, like, a PA per se Instagram, so I'll hold that.

But we do have to add to that.

We do have an email if you guys want to get in touch with us.

It's BeTheChange period.

Bpumail.com.

Okay.

I don't think I have to write that down.

Awesome.

Well, you guys are great.

Thank you all so much.

No worries.

Thank you for having us.

I'm really glad that we were able to kind of just talk about who we are, what we stand for, and I just hope that a lot of people find it helpful.