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Breaking Free from Codependency and Low Self-Esteem: an Interview with Caitlin Steitzer
Episode 4 • 17th September 2024 • Diary of a Recovering People Pleaser • Jenny Leckey
00:00:00 00:48:23

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"You can give a hundred percent. And that is 50% of the relationship." -Caitlin Steitzer

In this episode of Diary of a Recovering People Pleaser , Caitlin Steitzer joins Jenny to discuss the topic of people-pleasing from her unique POV as a licensed clinical social worker, therapist, and improv performer.

They explore personal experiences, the psychological and societal underpinnings of people-pleasing, and the importance of healing your sense of self-worth. Caitlin shares insights on radical self-acceptance, codependency, and how classism and body image contribute to people pleasing tendencies.

They also touch upon the value of boundary setting and the potential for personal growth through acknowledging and managing strong emotions. Caitlin explains what codependency and how it's related to people pleasing.

The conversation includes practical affirmations and a discussion on cultural influences, offering listeners a nuanced perspective on recovering from people pleasing.

Mentioned in this episode:

About the Guest:

Caitlin Steitzer

CAITLIN STEITZER is a licensed clinical social worker whose work focuses on building community and fostering confidence in people from all walks of life. Currently in private practice, she has over 20 years of experience in the mental health field and specializes in trauma, confidence, and body image issues. She is also a performer and teacher of improv comedy at Buffalo Improv House, and her research on the connections between improv and social work was published in the Journal for Social Group Work in 2010. When not nerding out about mental health she can be found hanging out with her dog and her husband, riding her bike, or creating dance music playlists. If you would like to work with her, please check out www.caitlinsteitzertherapy.com for more information or to schedule a free consultation.

Caitlin's Website



About the Host:

Interested in being a guest on the show? Email Jenny: info@meditatewithjenny.com

Jenny's offerings: Reiki healing sessions (distance or in person/Buffalo, NY), Reiki certification classes, channeled psychic readings. Visit her website.

Copyright 2024 Jenny Leckey LLC

Transcripts

Speaker:

Wow.

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Can I just say that this week I

had a few moments where I almost

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had people-pleaser slip-ups.

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But I stuck to my guns and I

trudged through that tension.

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I was very proud of myself.

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I don't know how your week

went, that's really good.

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Let's see, did I have any.

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People pleaser moments this past week.

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Not this last week I would say.

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. But don't worry.

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There've been plenty of times

in the past where I have had to

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struggle with people pleasing.

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I hear you.

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Can't wait to talk about.

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Because

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Jenny: so many times we feel like we're

alone in these situations, and then we

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hear what other people have experienced

and we're like, we're really all the same.

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Yeah, we all have similar

human experiences.

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For me, I feel like it's often hard

to identify because it comes up for

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me first as a feeling or an emotion.

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And it will come up as thought.

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Your thoughts aren't often telling you

what's underneath them so it'll just

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be thoughts that are worry about what

the other person is thinking or concern

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or imagining what they're going to

say and not liking what I'm imagining.

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And so it's just thoughts like

that and then a feeling of anxiety.

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And then I realized, wait a minute,

I'm doing a lot of projecting and I'm

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ignoring what I want, because I'm so

nervous about what this other person could

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potentially one day be feeling maybe.

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Ah, yes.

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Getting wrapped up in the stories.

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That's what I call it.

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What story am I telling right now?

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Jenny: We're each the main character

in our own movie and boy, do our

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brains get creative with what the

future dialogues going to look like.

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Oh yeah.

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When it comes to speaking or opinion

or setting a boundary or whatnot.

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Speaking of starring in her own movies.

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Should I introduce.

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Yes.

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My name is Caitlin Steitzer.

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I use she her pronouns.

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Jenny: I'm a licensed

clinical social worker.

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I'm an anti-capitalist business owner.

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I'm also an improv theater

performer and teacher.

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And that's where I met you.

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Yeah, Buffalo Improv House shout out.

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I know.

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Shout out.

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I think you were in like one of

the first classes I taught here.

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I was, I think I was in your first

round of level two when we were

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way back at the dance studio.

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Oh my goodness.

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Studio J shout out to studio J as well.

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Yeah.

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I'm really excited to be here.

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I'm excited to talk about the

phenomenon of people pleasing and

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some of my own experiences with it.

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I'm so happy you're here, too.

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You always have such unique insights

and you come with such a versatile

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background, whether it's from theater

or your professional background

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and all the other stuff in between.

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I can't wait to hear

your perspective on this.

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Right off the bat.

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I noticed you used a unique word.

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You said the phenomenon

of people-pleasing.

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I will love to dive in because I've

never heard someone call it a phenomenon.

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Oh yeah.

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I really liked that.

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Oh my gosh.

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Yeah.

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I wasn't being super thoughtful

with it, so I'm like, oh no.

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Oh, what was I meaning.

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Maybe I was using the word

phenomenon because it can feel

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like this unexplainable thing.

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As a social worker, my job

right now is to be a therapist.

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That's what I do for work.

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My job is to work with people

with like big feelings, so it

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can feel like a phenomenon.

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It can definitely be something that

can come and go without explanation.

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Oh,

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Jenny: This need to, to people please.

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It can just hit you like a wave

and then it dissipates and it goes

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away and you're like, what was that?

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Yeah.

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But it is a thing that I think all

humans have within them to some degree.

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Like a desire to please

others to connect with others.

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I've delved into this in other

people's conversations on this podcast.

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Of, not only the different versions

or different experiences of people

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pleasing because it's so multifaceted.

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But also, the levels or the amount

of people pleasing, because you

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mentioned that everyone has it in them.

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And of course, people want

to take care of one another.

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I think

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Jenny: there's a fine line between

being considerate of others and

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compromise versus people pleasing.

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'

cause I know some people who will of course compromise for

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people in their relationships,

but they're not people pleasing.

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They're not abandoning

themselves in the relationships.

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Yeah, that was one of the

things that I was curious about.

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I wanted to ask you about,

which is what is your working

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definition of people pleaser?

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Cause when you asked me to

come on, I was really excited.

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But it's, it's not a term that I've

directly identified with for myself

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or even one that I was using a lot.

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to me, it is Keep the

peace, avoid conflict.

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I'm mainly trying to manage

your emotional reaction to a

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situation or to what I'm saying.

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I want you to be happy.

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I don't want you to feel uncomfortable.

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I would never want you to feel that

way, so I will do and say whatever I

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can to make you happy while abandoning

my own needs or not even realizing

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that I had needs in the first place.

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That's essentially one of the

foundational definitions of,

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or aspects of people-pleasing.

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People mean it from a good place.

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They don't mean it from a nasty.

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Yeah, they're trying to look

out for your greater good, but

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it's not in the healthiest way.

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They're just doing the way that they

were told or the way that they know.

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Absolutely.

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I think that's a great definition.

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I've also heard the word self silencing.

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Ooh.

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To describe the same thing.

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I resonate with that.

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Yeah.

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Where you're just like, oh, time to

shut up about what I need because

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I think it will be more peaceful

if I don't say anything at all.

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Some people describe that as

codependent or we'll use the term

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codependency when there's like

people pleasing in relationships.

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But I, I think codependency is also

something like a little different.

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Would you mind just giving a quick definition of what

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codependency is, because I'm

curious how you described that?

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Yeah, I would describe codependency in

a super similar way to people pleasing.

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There can be a lot of self

silencing or people pleasing, but

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it doesn't necessarily have to be.

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I think,

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Jenny: codependency in a relationship

is when your emotional regulation is

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completely tied to the other person.

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Sometimes that looks like a

huge avoidance of conflict.

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Gotcha.

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Because you're so invested in the other

person being okay and staying with you.

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Codependency can also look like really

big blowout fights or jealousy, but it's

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often having to do with my emotional

regulation is really dependent on this

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other person doing what I want them to

do or feeling how I want them to feel.

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They're not thinking I'm trying to

control this other person's reaction,

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but how it plays out is I really

want this other person to react in

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a very specific way, yeah, exactly.

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And then if they don't, they're like,

don't you see, I set this up perfectly,

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or it's supposed to act this way.

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Exactly.

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Oh codependency though.

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You've got me thinking about past romantic

relationships, especially in my twenties,

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when you know, you're finding your way.

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Yeah, I can see how my people

pleasing fed into being codependent

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now that you described it that way.

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Yeah.

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I also really resonate with you

saying like, All of this stuff, all

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of the issues that come up when

we're wrapped up thinking about other

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people's feelings first and foremost.

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That in and of itself, isn't a bad

thing or a negative thing automatically.

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I'm glad you brought that up because

a lot of times I think people feel

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like oh, I'm a people pleaser.

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Let me shame myself too.

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I can't remember her name,

but there's a therapist.

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I think she was one of the inventors or

like pioneers of a type of couples therapy

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called emotionally- focused therapy.

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I think this was her.

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Yeah.

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And put it in the show notes.

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. I remember.

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She was giving a presentation

about emotionally- focused therapy.

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Her perspective was that people

often overuse the word codependency.

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or we'll use terms like people

pleasing in a derogatory way.

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And she noticed that people would often

have a blanket statement of, oh my God,

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I care too much about their feelings.

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Like I'm bad, like I'm

codependent oh, it's so bad.

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It's bad to need someone so much.

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Ah, yes.

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And her perspective is it's not

bad to need someone so much.

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We all need people.

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We need as human beings, emotional

connection, human connection.

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The same way we need water.

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Air, food, and purpose in life.

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Jenny: We need humans in our lives and

we need close, personal relationships.

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It is wired within us.

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So to say I'm bad because I

feel such a need for my partner.

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That's an oversimplification.

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And that's something I really

subscribe to as well, really noticing

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and recognizing and accepting.

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We are very much a communal species.

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We need other humans.

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I'm glad you brought that up, because

I feel like maybe this is going off on

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a tangent, but sometimes people pleasing

or when you were saying about feeling

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strong emotions for people, like people

will throw the word empath around.

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And I feel a lot of the times that

goes hand in hand, people pleasing

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and empath because you feel so

deeply, you can connect so deeply

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with what someone's going through

and you don't want them to suffer.

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Let me see how I can word

this and let me change this

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situation, so they don't feel bad.

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And I used to shame myself for that.

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I'd feel bad for being an emotional

person and people shame you too.

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They do stop crying.

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Don't do this, don't do that

because it makes them uncomfortable.

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But

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Jenny: I've embraced it

as my superpower now.

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And I think maybe doing that has

also helped me stop people pleasing

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as well, because If I have to take

care of other people's emotions,

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I have to take care of my own too.

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Yes.

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Jenny: Being able to see yourself

as equally worthy of what you

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give others, I think is a really

important part of recovery.

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Do you consider yourself an empath?

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Yeah, but I actually almost

don't like that word anymore.

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Oh my gosh.

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Tell me why you don't like that word.

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Because there's a crossover in the

spiritual community where people

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are like, I'm an empath if I can

back up all the energy and stuff.

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And I understand that, and everyone

can be sensitive to energy.

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Thinking they can't control

these interactions, which if you

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feel that way, that's not true.

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From a spiritual standpoint, there's

grounding clearing protecting your energy.

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There's all different things

you can do with Reiki and stuff.

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And then from a connection

standpoint with people.

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You can use your words, set

your own boundaries.

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If someone keeps treating you a certain

way, tell them how they make you feel.

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Yeah.

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And I'll also say this, right?

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In some ways.

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Totally.

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There's tons of stuff you can

do to control the interaction.

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But also in other ways, the reality

is there's a lot that actually you

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can't do to control the interaction.

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If someone is I'm an empath and

I get so overwhelmed by people's

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emotions or people's conversations.

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Like really being able to accept

yeah, that is life, like you are

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not going to be able to control how

everyone's emotions are in the room.

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I think this for me, this was

a big part of my own people

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pleasing, quote, unquote, whatever

sort of like label works for me.

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Like really accepting oh

yeah I can do what I can do.

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I can do what I can do.

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I can give a hundred percent and that's

going to be 50% of the relationship.

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Can you say that again for

the people in the back?

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Yeah.

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Jenny: You can give a hundred percent.

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And that is 50% of the relationship.

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I think right there is the crux of

people pleasing because they feel

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like they have to compensate and

give the whole a hundred percent.

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Yeah.

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And it's not possible.

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Yeah.

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And it's not possible.

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That's something that I feel

is really helpful to remember

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too, that's a great point.

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And then, so go back to what you

said about situations or interactions

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with people , you can't control them

and they can be intense and such.

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An aspect that's helped me with

people pleasing is to embrace that

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I have strong emotions within me

and I can feel people's energy

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strongly and that's not a bad thing.

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I just have to learn how to manage

it and actually not block it because

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I think a lot of times I would

try to stuff it down or ignore it.

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And now I got to just ride the wave.

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I know.

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There's such a difference between just

existing with a challenging feeling.

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Just like existing in a space angry.

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Sad.

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Scared.

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And there's such a difference between

experiencing a challenging emotion

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expressing that challenging emotion, and

being purposefully cruel and mean, yes.

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But it feels the same.

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I think for a lot of people

who are people pleasers.

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Yeah.

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I don't want to hurt their feelings.

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It's like, why would me just

being angry, hurt someone's

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feelings and there's reasons.

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Yes.

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Yeah, it's so different.

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That's.

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That's making me laugh because I'm taking

this writing course and it's the sales

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writing end of writing for my business.

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In the one part, we, for those

of you not in the business world

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there, CTA is calls to action.

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So that's basically at the end of a

post when you're like DM'ing for the

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link to this event, it's not a big

deal, but we're practicing doing that.

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And someone was struggling and

everyone mostly all women are

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being very passive with their CTAs.

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And I said, I judged it on

my people pleaser scale.

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Jenny: When I write a CTA and

it feels forward and rude,

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I know I'm doing a good job.

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It's really not.

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My people pleaser sides like dang, Jenny,

you can't say that you're being so pushy.

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Oh, my gosh.

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I love that.

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Yeah.

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What's another pushy thing you've said.

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Do you think, or that you can remember.

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I would say I really struggled

at the beginning of my business,

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even asking people if they would

like to book a Reiki session.

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Like even mentioning my offering

and what I'm doing or in

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conversation, even bringing up.

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Hey, I'm having this angel

card workshop on Saturday.

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I love it if you'd attend.

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If you want to using the word,

if is so passive , that's

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what we're learning not to do.

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So I'd say if you want you no

pressure, you don't have to.

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I'm just mentioning it.

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On my tombstone, that was like a cartoon

I saw it was like on the tombstone.

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No worries.

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If not.

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And I was like yeah, I get it relatable.

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Oh yeah.

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It's a biological need to

be accepted by other humans.

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True.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Belonging to the tribe, the community.

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That makes sense.

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Yeah.

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Jenny: It's a survival

drive for us, right?

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Again, we are a communal species.

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We literally could not have

survived without learning how

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to function in communities,

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right?

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For those of us on this planet who

didn't have a platonic ideal of a

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childhood, which wait a minute is like

all of us, many of us have different

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developmental disruptions when we're kids.

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Maybe we didn't get the sense

of community or belonging that

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would have been more ideal.

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So we arrive into adulthood.

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And there's this deep seated

something that doesn't feel good

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when you're afraid you're not

going to be liked by other people.

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And it's really like a survival thing.

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Like

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Jenny: we will die if we're

expelled from the tribe.

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I was thinking about, I was like,

yeah, being kicked from the nest or.

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Yeah.

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Like how other animals will

kick someone out of the herd

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and there you are by yourself.

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You're right.

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Yeah.

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Instinctually.

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We want to be accepted.

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We want to be accepted.

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We want to be liked.

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We want to be loved.

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And then there's all of the

cultural stuff, like for people

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socialized as women, for people

assigned female at birth.

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Oh, my God.

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And then I know like it's a

generalization, but I keep

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saying that it's the American

tradition to be a people pleaser.

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I know there's regions.

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If you're listening and you live in Boston

and New York city or whatever, I get it.

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There's different regions They're

more practiced in setting boundaries.

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In that way.

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But when you're here in Buffalo,

New York, you're definitely

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more on the people-pleaser side.

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Yeah.

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The culture in this region.

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I wonder too.

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That's so interesting to be

like, oh, in New York, they're

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not as like people pleasing.

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Because I wonder, , I don't

know if you can always tell.

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I think there might be people who

externally is like, wow, that person

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is so boundaried, but it doesn't mean

that they're not still feeling or

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engaging in a lot of self silencing.

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Or a lot of codependency

in a relationship.

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That level of people pleasing.

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And I'll say this I think there's

So much classism in New York city.

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I think personally from living in New

York, I think there's large chunks of

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the population, even in places like

that, where it's like, everyone's

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aggressive, everyone's hustling and

bustling, but you might be pushing your

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way past people on the subway, but if

you get to work and your job is oh,

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we're going to look down on you because

you're a maid in this five-star hotel.

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Every part of the job is built around

self silencing and people pleasing.

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Jenny: There's so much messaging that I

think we get in the United States about

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how your money is connected to your worth.

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Yes.

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And how the money you earn allows you

to have needs or to ask for things.

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Upset other people.

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Thank you for that perspective shift.

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It's easy to generalize, right?

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And those of us who have never lived

there that is how it's in New York.

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Or other places.

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Yeah.

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Every.

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Which is true.

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There is a cultural norm of

like, why would I, like, why

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would I not say what I mean.

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Not to say what I mean.

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Like why would I be worried?

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Yeah.

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I have a friend who told me that one of

her proudest moments was waiting for a

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subway , and the doors open and someone

in front of her, just stood there and

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she just said, move and pushed them.

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And it was this huge moment for her.

396

:

Yeah, new Yorkers can

totally be like that.

397

:

No time for politeness, get out of my way.

398

:

But I don't think that means that they

might not have different struggles.

399

:

Because really it comes down to

400

:

Jenny: am I worthy enough to ask

for something that might cause

401

:

someone else some discomfort, maybe.

402

:

Am I worthy enough.

403

:

That is a great point.

404

:

And I just have to

interject with this story.

405

:

Then it just popped into my head.

406

:

You said worthiness and it might

cause someone to have to shift,

407

:

like maybe meaning offering help.

408

:

When I moved to Richmond for my

radio career, I was with a longterm

409

:

boyfriend and I made it like, it was

already on the rocks, but maybe 68.

410

:

Yeah.

411

:

6-8 months into the move.

412

:

Things ended, but me being my stubborn

self and also covert people pleaser,

413

:

I had my little Sunfire and I got

my own apartment within four days of

414

:

us breaking up and blew his mind.

415

:

I took 13 trips with that

sunfire to move all of my shit.

416

:

I refuse to ask for help.

417

:

I just did it myself.

418

:

I'm looking back now.

419

:

I'm like, come on, Jenny, you

could've asked some of your

420

:

friends What are you doing?.

421

:

But I didn't want to inconvenience anyone.

422

:

And plus I was very angry, but.

423

:

Still.

424

:

Oh my gosh.

425

:

Yeah.

426

:

Jenny: When there's a will, there's a way.

427

:

Oh, poor sweet 23 year old Jenny.

428

:

13 trips.

429

:

I say like classism is part of it too.

430

:

I wonder, I don't want to assume.

431

:

But I also bet that like a part of it

was like, I can't afford to hire movers

432

:

or rent a truck oh, a million percent.

433

:

I was oh, sales, assistant,

and radio at the time, I think

434

:

I was making $24,000 a year.

435

:

I was broke.

436

:

Yeah.

437

:

It was definitely a money thing.

438

:

I just want to point out I

think about this all the time.

439

:

. How much money connects to our

mental health and our confidence.

440

:

And the stories we tell ourself, right?

441

:

So it's something like.

442

:

The behavior is I'm going to move.

443

:

But I'm just going to do it all myself.

444

:

And part of it is people pleasing.

445

:

But part of it is also just not

having enough fucking money.

446

:

True.

447

:

Like just not having enough money.

448

:

That can be the root of

so much shame for people.

449

:

And such big feelings of unworthiness.

450

:

It can prompt a behavior that

then becomes a habit because.

451

:

Okay.

452

:

What I'll talk about

like personally, right?

453

:

Is that it can solidify as

a "I don't deserve this.

454

:

I'm a person who just

has to do it myself."

455

:

And I think there can be a lot

of strength in that, but it's

456

:

just that scarcity mindset.

457

:

And then you're an adult and

458

:

Jenny: Maybe you have money, but

you don't want to spend it, right?

459

:

Maybe you have friends, but you

still don't want to ask them.

460

:

I think it's all connected.

461

:

Oh, I agree.

462

:

I'm so glad you brought that up.

463

:

I knew your unique mind would

bring an awesome spin to this.

464

:

I love it so much.

465

:

Yeah.

466

:

I know I'm calling this diary of

recovering people pleaser, but really

467

:

that's just a jumping off point.

468

:

I'm so glad you brought other

things that come into the mix.

469

:

Cause it really does

not live in isolation.

470

:

It's so compounded.

471

:

Especially how you said

the classism and the money.

472

:

To add to that then that kind of

contributes to the familial aspect

473

:

of people pleasing being handed down

because it's the pull yourself up by

474

:

the bootstraps and don't complain.

475

:

Do it on your own and all of that kind

of energy that can be passed down.

476

:

Like in my family, a lot

of that was passed down.

477

:

From generation to generation.

478

:

So then it's own form of people

pleasing to not complain,

479

:

take what is given to you.

480

:

You should be grateful for what you have

whether that's monetary things, tangible

481

:

things, or even having a roof over your

head or a relationship even having human

482

:

around whether or not that's going well.

483

:

You should just be grateful for all that.

484

:

Not everyone has it.

485

:

We worked hard to get all this.

486

:

Yeah.

487

:

And what you have is what you deserve.

488

:

I think is another message in all of that.

489

:

Good point.

490

:

I think, what you have

is what you deserve.

491

:

I think it can be a feeling

a lot of us internalize.

492

:

So many of us, I think, are just taught

493

:

Jenny: What you have shows how

good you are, how hard you worked.

494

:

And that just can affect

us so much mentally.

495

:

I talk about this sometimes because

I'm a social worker, so a lot of people

496

:

are like, oh wow, that's so hard.

497

:

Or oh, you must be so poor.

498

:

And I was, I used to be, I worked

at this awesome nonprofit in

499

:

Brooklyn that I really loved,

but the salary was super low.

500

:

And eventually I realized that

I needed to make a career shift.

501

:

Partially for the money,

but also just, it was time.

502

:

I went into private practice as a

therapist, and I have financial security

503

:

for the first time in my entire life,

really, and it's a substantial shift

504

:

into a different income bracket.

505

:

I am very financially stable at this

point in my life, but I was not less

506

:

worthy of being financially stable

at that other job, if anything,

507

:

I was working longer or harder.

508

:

Yeah.

509

:

Yeah.

510

:

Good points.

511

:

Yes, exactly.

512

:

And that adds into grind

culture, which is, oh, something

513

:

that I'm rally against it's off.

514

:

I can't it's like your self-worth

is based in grind culture.

515

:

Sure.

516

:

Jenny: And then that ties into

people pleasing because you're not

517

:

going to tell your boss no, because

now you're not a team player.

518

:

You better give your all.

519

:

And then some.

520

:

I gave 110%.

521

:

That phrase makes me want to scream.

522

:

Yeah cause it's like setting you

up for something that's impossible.

523

:

Exactly.

524

:

I just had such low self esteem because

I was always struggling with money.

525

:

I had low self esteem and feelings of

unworthiness related to other stuff.

526

:

I had a lot of low like body

image issues stuff growing up.

527

:

I think there's all of these stories that

we tell ourself as to why we would be

528

:

a burden if we were to ask for anything.

529

:

I think a lot of that does

have to do with some, cultural

530

:

narratives, which affect our family.

531

:

You mentioned that you had different

things that you experienced and survived.

532

:

What do you feel was a turning

point that made the switch for

533

:

you because now you have all these

evolved perspectives and thoughts

534

:

and you give all this great advice.

535

:

What was that shift for you?

536

:

Oh my gosh.

537

:

First of all, thank you for

saying my perspective is evolved.

538

:

It is.

539

:

I feel it is.

540

:

I love listening to you talk.

541

:

Oh my gosh.

542

:

Jenny: I love reminding myself

how infinitely dumb I am like in

543

:

how infinitely dumb we all are.

544

:

Like, that feels really good to hear,

but it's just I'm just an idiot guys.

545

:

What all we're all.

546

:

Think of how much knowledge

there is out there, infinite.

547

:

And we don't know it . Infinitely dub?

548

:

No.

549

:

What you mean?

550

:

Evolved in my little world.

551

:

Jenny: I think a real turning

point for me was when I was.

552

:

In my own therapy.

553

:

Before I became a therapist,

when I was a social worker.

554

:

I was really caught up in a lot of shame,

felt so bad that I couldn't save money.

555

:

I had a lot of negative perceptions

about how I looked and had a really

556

:

strong inner critic that would come up

and be very punishing whenever I wasn't.

557

:

Perfect

558

:

are.

559

:

Are you inside of my mind?

560

:

mine must live next door to yours.

561

:

That sounds very familiar.

562

:

Oh my God.

563

:

I know that the inner critics of the

world probably all live and share tips

564

:

for Ooh, here's the best thing we can say.

565

:

Cause it's all the same shit.

566

:

It's all like you're bad.

567

:

Deep down.

568

:

Yeah.

569

:

People really knew you,

they wouldn't like you.

570

:

Exactly.

571

:

I feel like they're all

in the same neighborhood.

572

:

And I personally think my inner

critic is the president of

573

:

the HOA, but I'm just saying.

574

:

The black ruled the black and, I

think I was talking to my therapist

575

:

just like being worried about how I

looked in something or talking about

576

:

how I would want to wear something,

but I couldn't, or I wouldn't.

577

:

And she was just like, oh, why not?

578

:

And I was like What if

people think I look dumb.

579

:

And.

580

:

She was like, yeah.

581

:

What if they think that.

582

:

And I was like, oh, Wait a minute..

583

:

Oh, nothing.

584

:

Nothing will happen to me if I'm

walking down the street and someone

585

:

just thinks like that outfit is bad.

586

:

Yeah.

587

:

Making me think I have my own

reservations, too, about wearing

588

:

certain clothing and such.

589

:

Yeah, but I think just

like really realizing that

590

:

Jenny: Literally someone else's thoughts.

591

:

Don't affect me.

592

:

Can't affect me.

593

:

Can't materially change my life.

594

:

Their actions can, right?

595

:

Yeah.

596

:

Yeah.

597

:

And again, this is why we're

programmed to worry about this.

598

:

This is why it's not bad to

notice that programming, yeah.

599

:

That makes sense.

600

:

It's just recognizing the

reality of the situation.

601

:

Oh, I don't want people

to think bad about me.

602

:

Jenny: Literally.

603

:

Someone's thoughts can't

do anything to you.

604

:

Yes, you're right.

605

:

I want to make a connection to all the

spiritual aspects of that I've heard

606

:

from a lot of teachers that I follow

that they'll say the only reason that

607

:

say someone did criticize your outfit.

608

:

If it affects you, it's because

it resonates with a little bit of

609

:

that energy within you that agrees.

610

:

There's still a little resonance

within you, because think about it.

611

:

If someone came up to me like

I'm wearing all black right now

612

:

and they're like, I hate black.

613

:

I hate that shirt and I'd

be like, I don't cool.

614

:

What color palette do you like?

615

:

I wouldn't care.

616

:

Because it does thing in me.

617

:

That's it's secretly, I hate black and

I thought you were going to say that.

618

:

That sounds silly, if you

came up and I don't know.

619

:

I'm trying to think of another example

of what would make me feel awkward.

620

:

Oh let's get personal.

621

:

If someone was like, Plus size girls

shouldn't be wearing leggings as pants.

622

:

You look fat in that looks disgusting.

623

:

Just gave myself a little bit of stomach

624

:

because a part of me, I can't help it.

625

:

I have a little bit of that

programming inside of me still, even

626

:

though I wear leggings all the time.

627

:

Yeah.

628

:

I still have a little bit of that in me.

629

:

Yeah.

630

:

Yeah.

631

:

It takes time to deprogram

those beliefs..

632

:

Because, talking about someone's body

size and what they're allowed to

633

:

wear or not wear we've gotten those

messages our entire fucking life.

634

:

Exactly.

635

:

Whereas maybe we haven't got the message

of like eww black is terrible, right?

636

:

Yeah.

637

:

So yes, the body size is so much

more likely to be like one of those

638

:

insecurities that gets us worried

about what other people think.

639

:

This is the thing that's so hard

about recovering from people

640

:

pleasing, I think sometimes we want

to tell ourselves, oh, don't worry.

641

:

People aren't going to be judging you.

642

:

They're not going to care.

643

:

No, one's going to say anything mean.

644

:

But that isn't always true.

645

:

You are going to come up against

some people who are like, I don't

646

:

think people in bigger bodies or fat

people should wear leggings as pants.

647

:

Yeah.

648

:

And they'll think that secretly

and they'll say it out loud.

649

:

True.

650

:

I'm curious to get your perspective.

651

:

Two things that came to my mind, as

you were saying, this part of it is

652

:

hard because as a people pleaser,

you're doing the healing real time.

653

:

It's not like you can put yourself in

isolation and practice a few times.

654

:

You just got to dive in

when that shit hits the fan.

655

:

One thing like handling negative

comments and such, I will say when

656

:

I was starting this podcast, I was

like, why am I feeling resistance?

657

:

I was talking it through with my mom.

658

:

And I realized

659

:

Jenny: I have a fear of cyber bullying,

of people putting really nasty

660

:

messages on social media or DM'ing me,

661

:

I hear the horror stories

of what people do.

662

:

And I'm like,

663

:

Jenny: do I have the nervous

system capacity to handle that?

664

:

I was, little scared, cause I

don't have a conflict in my life.

665

:

I don't want to usher that in.

666

:

But what I kept telling myself

was it's going to happen.

667

:

It is inevitable.

668

:

You are going to get nasty DMS.

669

:

You're going to get nasty comments.

670

:

You're going to get nasty reviews.

671

:

That's going to happen and it

release something to me and like

672

:

desensitized now, is that healthy?

673

:

Or am I just beating

myself up in a weird way?

674

:

Oh my gosh.

675

:

Am I being like an angry coach to myself.

676

:

No, not at all.

677

:

Okay.

678

:

And I think there's a lot of nuance here.

679

:

True has, if you were telling yourself

it's gonna happen because you do suck.

680

:

And you deserve it.

681

:

Good point.

682

:

No, I wasn't thinking that way.

683

:

It was a compassionate, like it's

going to happen, so stop worrying.

684

:

I think that is compassionate and

radical acceptance of the world as it is.

685

:

And not the way we want it to be.

686

:

I think that is an

incredibly helpful practice.

687

:

That is a Buddhist practice.

688

:

I am not a Buddhist.

689

:

I have read.

690

:

And I sometimes read articles.

691

:

There are a lot of concepts in sort

of modern day psychotherapy that are

692

:

drawn directly from Buddhism, but.

693

:

Seeing the world as it is

practicing radical acceptance.

694

:

Of course, I don't like the

possibility of getting like really

695

:

nasty DMS, but that is a possibility.

696

:

I'm absolutely accepting that I am

inviting this possibility into my life,

697

:

but it doesn't make it probability

it doesn't make it an inevitability.

698

:

And also.

699

:

What can those thoughts or

comments actually do to me?

700

:

What can they actually do?

701

:

I get to take them down.

702

:

I can control how this is.

703

:

Yes.

704

:

The probability of there being a

media shit show about you and your

705

:

podcast is actually really low.

706

:

Why are you saying people

pleasers aren't going to speak.

707

:

Just kidding.

708

:

I just kidding.

709

:

All you people pleasers

out there- I love ya.

710

:

Yeah, none of, yeah, no one

will ever say anything to you.

711

:

We're just going to celebrate me

and everything's going to be fine.

712

:

No, but it's it's.

713

:

Really

714

:

Jenny: it's a really hard skill to be

like, let's look at the world as it is.

715

:

Really and truly recognize if

your brain is registering the

716

:

possibility as a probability?

717

:

Is your brain telling you

this will have to happen?

718

:

Or is your brain telling

you this is a possibility?

719

:

It's saying it probably will

happen, but that's from a realistic

720

:

point of view because that's

what the world is online today.

721

:

Yeah.

722

:

Oh, that's so funny that you brought

up that it's Buddhism because I don't

723

:

officially call myself a Buddhist,

but I'm basically a Buddhist and

724

:

a little bit from stoicism as well,

which are very similar anyway.

725

:

But I didn't even think about

that being exactly what you just

726

:

said about fully accepting and

surrendering to what is that's so funny.

727

:

Jenny: Sometimes you need

another person to be your mirror.

728

:

Oh my gosh.

729

:

Yeah.

730

:

I love it.

731

:

It's awesome.

732

:

And the reason I also brought

that up is because that same thing

733

:

that I used about my fear for

that applies to people pleasing.

734

:

If you tell someone what they're doing

is making you feel X, Y, Z, or you're set

735

:

a boundary or whatever it is that you're

resisting doing, because it's scary.

736

:

Similar practice.

737

:

Yeah.

738

:

Yeah, okay.

739

:

This is an example.

740

:

Or, you know what, no I'll

use a personal one, right?

741

:

Had a conversation with my mom the

other day where I knew I was going

742

:

to have to just set some boundaries

and just clarify some things.

743

:

Unlike.

744

:

Hey, like here's stuff we can talk about

where we probably won't get into a fight.

745

:

And here's stuff that if we talk

about it, we're like a thousand

746

:

percent going to get into a fight.

747

:

Yeah.

748

:

I felt so nervous and bad and scared

beforehand because I knew that it

749

:

was just going to bring up a lot of

complicated feelings for her and she's

750

:

my mom and she's the best and I love her.

751

:

And I don't want her to feel that way.

752

:

But

753

:

Jenny: the practice of radical

acceptance is she might feel

754

:

all sorts of negative things.

755

:

And I cannot control that.

756

:

And I'm not saying anything mean.

757

:

I am just telling her my feelings

and I'm showing her my uncomfortable

758

:

feelings and she might show

me her uncomfortable feelings.

759

:

I like the way you put that.

760

:

Looking at it as someone showing you

their uncomfortable feelings versus

761

:

they're mad at me or a fight or conflict.

762

:

I like that.

763

:

Yeah, they're showing me

their uncomfortable feelings.

764

:

It's also using different language that

people might not be used to as well.

765

:

So it's throwing people

like a double curve.

766

:

Yeah.

767

:

It's really tough.

768

:

And you're going to get activated,

which is a word that you can use

769

:

interchangeably with triggered.

770

:

I like the word activated a little

bit more because I think being

771

:

triggered often people think of

post-traumatic stress disorder.

772

:

Or trauma responses.

773

:

And I think sometimes we become triggered

because of experiences in our past that

774

:

weren't necessarily traumatic, but they're

still stored in our nervous system and

775

:

in our subconscious and in our brain,

776

:

so you get activated, I like that.

777

:

That's a better word choice.

778

:

Yeah, it doesn't seem

so combative or extreme.

779

:

When you say triggered, I think

it makes the stakes really high.

780

:

Whereas I like activate it's

okay, we can work through

781

:

that together that happens.

782

:

You've given us so many

different things to think about.

783

:

I love the different ways of

speaking about these things because

784

:

Jenny: words have power.

785

:

So if we can reframe things and

tell a different story about what

786

:

we're doing that's one of the

first steps towards recovery.

787

:

Totally I'm also a big believer

in we can get better at everything.

788

:

I don't believe in like the

United States fallacy, if you

789

:

can do whatever you dream of.

790

:

I don't believe that I don't believe

that if I dreamed of becoming an w

791

:

NBA player I could, I am five, four.

792

:

Yes.

793

:

I agree.

794

:

Yes.

795

:

I actually really hate that term.

796

:

Like you can do anything you dream of,

you can do anything you put your mind to.

797

:

Because again

798

:

Jenny: we need to see the world

as it is not how we want it to be.

799

:

There's so many things

outside of our control.

800

:

There's so many things that aren't

fair, but I do really believe that

801

:

we can get better at anything.

802

:

So I'm never going to be a W NBA player,

but I could get better at basketball.

803

:

We want to get better

at not people pleasing.

804

:

You can, but it will feel uncomfortable.

805

:

Jenny: You will get activated.

806

:

If you are purposefully trying

to reprogram your habits and your

807

:

beliefs, it will feel triggering,

activating, uncomfortable.

808

:

You'll be doing all of the right

things, but feeling really bad.

809

:

It's so frustrating.

810

:

It's so frustrating.

811

:

This healing journey.

812

:

It is that's my go-to thing.

813

:

Then I repeat in my mind, my

affirmation is " tolerate the tension".

814

:

I can do that.

815

:

I can do hard things.

816

:

I can tolerate the tension.

817

:

Yeah.

818

:

Cause you've gotten through all the

tension that you've gone through

819

:

prior, they can do it again.

820

:

My favorite affirmation Is

"Those are their feelings.

821

:

What are mine?"

822

:

Ooh, I love that those are their feelings.

823

:

What are mine?

824

:

I was actually going to ask you what

you would put on a bumper sticker.

825

:

Is that what you'd put

on a bumper sticker?

826

:

I, I had something different.

827

:

I had.

828

:

Oh, yeah, please share.

829

:

So I have a few different

possible bumper stickers.

830

:

Maybe we can take a vote.

831

:

Those are their feelings.

832

:

What are mine?

833

:

That's a good one.

834

:

But the one I had come up with is

literally "their thoughts can't hurt you".

835

:

Their thoughts can't hurt you.

836

:

Oh, I love it.

837

:

Oh, that's wonderful.

838

:

And maybe another one is just,

"they're allowed to feel that way".

839

:

Ah, that's been a really helpful

one fair allowed to feel that way.

840

:

Like really, and truly

how uncomfortable is that?

841

:

Like when you think about I'm going

to tell my partner, I'm going to

842

:

tell my parent, I'm going to tell

my friend what I need to say, and

843

:

then , imagine them saying that really

sucks that you said that Caitlin.

844

:

I'm so fucking pissed at you right now.

845

:

Yeah.

846

:

And then just tell yourself,

they're allowed to feel that way.

847

:

It's fair.

848

:

Feel that way.

849

:

Allowed to feel that way they're allowed.

850

:

Jenny: They're allowed to hate.

851

:

I love that.

852

:

And it's their job to process it as

long as you weren't being an asshole,

853

:

yeah.

854

:

Caveat there . Again, like the difference

between whoa, I'm upset when you do this

855

:

or this is something that I want Hey.

856

:

Can you plan the vacation

this year or something?

857

:

Ah, that sucks.

858

:

They're allowed to feel that way.

859

:

I would buy both those bumper stickers.

860

:

Oh my gosh.

861

:

Think they're perfect.

862

:

I love them so much.

863

:

As we're wrapping up

here, any final thoughts.

864

:

And I wanted to ask you if you have

any authors, writers, speakers,

865

:

anyone that you'd recommend that

people read up on or follow or watch?

866

:

Yes.

867

:

And I'll put all this in

the show notes, folks.

868

:

So just enjoy.

869

:

Yay.

870

:

Yeah, just enjoy it.

871

:

Just.

872

:

Andrew, the talking in this.

873

:

Click through like subscribe.

874

:

Oh, thank you for the plug.

875

:

Oh, God, you got to, yeah, I

touched on these two things.

876

:

I really, truly

877

:

If at the beginning, someone

was like, what do you mean?

878

:

You're an anticapitalist business owner.

879

:

Yes.

880

:

Other people.

881

:

That's a lot of words, so yeah.

882

:

What are like the two things

that I sort of want to leave on,?

883

:

I really think there are many

things that can affect our

884

:

confidence and our self-esteem.

885

:

That affects our feeling of worthiness.

886

:

And I feel like that is at the

root of how comfortable we can get

887

:

asking for our needs to be met.

888

:

I'm anti-capitalist because I really

think a system where your worth is

889

:

based on how much money you bring in.

890

:

I think that's bad.

891

:

And how much money you bring

in is based on, again, these

892

:

very arbitrary distinctions.

893

:

You know what I mean?

894

:

Like you were a teacher.

895

:

You should be rich.

896

:

Yes.

897

:

I agree.

898

:

I agree.

899

:

You know the way that we're just

like, oh yeah, they're a doctor.

900

:

They should be rich.

901

:

Like a lawyer, they

should be right to yeah.

902

:

Everyone should have enough.

903

:

But our lack of, and the labels we

attach to certain professions and

904

:

jobs can really make us feel unworthy.

905

:

I think for a lot of women and

surprise, a shit ton of dudes.

906

:

I think our looks and our body size true.

907

:

Yeah.

908

:

Art plays such a deep role, such an

important role in our sense of worthiness.

909

:

I think that affects our people

pleasing and what we feel

910

:

like we're allowed to ask for.

911

:

So I really love a lot of radical

body liberation authors we've talked

912

:

about, "The Body Is Not an Apology".

913

:

Oh, my gosh, that changed my life.

914

:

Sonya, Renee Taylor.

915

:

Yeah.

916

:

That book is incredible.

917

:

I recommend the audio book.

918

:

Cause it's her telling it's

like her talking to you.

919

:

It's like you sitting on

the couch talking with her.

920

:

Oh my God.

921

:

And like the whole thesis of that is

learning to radically love your self.

922

:

Is an affirmation in just

that all life is valuable.

923

:

You learn to love other people, but

you also learn to set boundaries

924

:

for yourself with that practice.

925

:

I think body liberation, health at every

size, intuitive eating, anti diet stuff

926

:

can be really helpful in impacting.

927

:

Something that at least for myself

was a huge part of my people

928

:

pleasing, not feeling worthy.

929

:

And then I think reading critiques of

capitalism and theories around economies.

930

:

There's a YouTube channel

called second chance.

931

:

Oh, okay.

932

:

They had a show that was like, why is it

so hard to imagine life after capitalism?

933

:

Or they had an episode?

934

:

Ooh, I'll have to watch it.

935

:

I liked that one.

936

:

I think

937

:

Jenny: really learning to unlearn

every way you've been taught

938

:

that you're not worthy enough.

939

:

Or it's not okay for you to have

uncomfortable feelings or ugly feelings.

940

:

Any thought or belief that's

ever told you you're less than.

941

:

Usually that comes from a

totally distorted place,

942

:

none of us are less than, I don't know.

943

:

I didn't know which way you were going to

go with what you were going to recommend.

944

:

And I loved that it wasn't the

traditional go read this book on, I

945

:

don't know, like EMDR or something.

946

:

Something like that.

947

:

Some type of therapy book , but you went

macro you went with that's figure out

948

:

why this exists in the first place.

949

:

Why are you programmed to be

this way in the first place?

950

:

I love it.

951

:

I'm so glad you came

to visit and hang out.

952

:

This has been amazing.

953

:

I have a lot to reflect on.

954

:

I have some topics now I can

journal about I'm excited.

955

:

Ooh.

956

:

Oh my gosh.

957

:

Awesome.

958

:

Cool.

959

:

So of course you have your own business.

960

:

So folks want to seek you out for help.

961

:

I will put all of your

contact info in the show notes.

962

:

But is there anything that you want to

talk about just briefly, maybe what

963

:

you focus on, in your therapy practice?

964

:

What topics you might specialize in?

965

:

Yes.

966

:

Yeah.

967

:

If you're interested in getting

on my waiting list to work with

968

:

me as a therapist, you can reach

out Caitlin Steitzer therapy.com.

969

:

This would be a good time to do that

because within this year, early next

970

:

year am expanding to establish a group

practice called rad embodied therapy.

971

:

And I'll also be working with

people in California, so you can

972

:

get in touch with us that way.

973

:

Get in touch with me.

974

:

We're going to be doing some support

groups like self-worth support groups.

975

:

Jenny: Surviving classism or

surviving capitalism support groups

976

:

, body respect, body

liberation, support groups.

977

:

So like we're going to

be doing some offerings.

978

:

You can find me that way.

979

:

And then if you live in Buffalo, New York,

go to Buffalo improv house.com or follow

980

:

Buffalo improv house on Instagram because

I perform there and I teach classes.

981

:

Thank you.

982

:

Oh, my gosh.

983

:

I want to learn to say yes, and to life.

984

:

I didn't even.

985

:

No, I think we need to do a separate

episode on improv and how that

986

:

relates to everything we talked about.

987

:

Thank you so much for having.

988

:

Thanks for joining.

989

:

And if you all have any questions

contact info's in the show notes.

990

:

Please share this with anyone you

think it might resonate with because

991

:

Jenny: you never know how one sentence

or one phrase or one bumper sticker

992

:

statement might flip a switch in someone's

mind and start their healing journey.

993

:

So if you think this might resonate

with someone, please pass it along.

994

:

Thank you so much, Caitlin.

995

:

Thank you, Jenny.

996

:

Have you back soon.

997

:

Bye.

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