Tables turned in this podcast. Amy Stillman asks me about leadership. It’s because people were saying who is the podcast host. This silly woman who giggles her way through each episode, asking silly questions. Does she know anything about leadership anyway. And if she does what does she think. Well Amy should know she worked with me for eight years.

Normal service is resumed for episode 14, far more interesting people to talk to!

Julia Middleton 0:01

Julia Middleton 0:43

Welcome, welcome. Welcome. I am Julian Middleton, women emerging expedition leader and podcast host or I am now I've decided I am and that's want to get a call myself as we go into the 13th podcast. As you know, the expedition met for the first time well, the 24 women met about a week ago. And they're now talking to many, many women all over the world about different aspects of leadership that are of interest to them. And they're really delving they're exploring, they've gone exploring. I thought I'd tell you about some of the themes that they wanted to explore. There's one member who wants to talk to a woman leader, who is a transgendered women leader who has led both in a male and a female context, for obvious reasons, there must be so much learning. There are two other people who wanted to look at leadership through the eyes of cities, to talk to a leader, a woman who leads a city, no doubt against all the odds that there's really pushing forward on the sustainability of that city, how she doing it, how she persuading people how she making it happen. And then there's another who really, really wants to talk to anybody who has managed to, to bring people together across different cultures in a city through their own personal leadership. There's another woman who's very, very interested, it's an interesting excerpt how she expressed it, she wants to talk to leaders who have found ways of projecting strength, other than through physical or verbal strength, really interesting concept, talking to a lot of people. Then there's somebody who wants to talk to women who largely lead other women, where women are very much the dominating force in the team. What are the dynamics and how do you do that? There are two different angles on generational leadership.

Julia Middleton 3:02

One person who wants to talk about are the big differences between how generations lead. And so she's talking to a lot of people across different generations. And then there's another who's more interested in the concept of whether whether leadership can almost be passed on, is leadership generational, do you hand some of those skills naturally on to a next generation? As she says, there's intergenerational trauma, is there such a thing as intergenerational leadership? It's another woman who wants to look hard at different models of collective leadership. And to try and understand the different ways it's done. There are a number of people who are interested in looking at whether leadership is very different in different sectors. And there's a particular thread in that, there's one woman who really wants to look at what we can learn from women in the army and in the armed forces. There's an interesting angle, which is how do women who are born to privilege develop leadership skills, and how do they navigate leadership and privilege at the same time. There's one woman who wants to look at how you lead not just with the mind, but with the body. And as she said, how do you overcome the sort of colonisation of decat thinking and break away from that and think about body as well as mind. There is one woman who's really really interested in talking to I suppose, peacemakers, but also a peacemakers within yourself. How do you move from a state of being angry and hopeless very often to a state of joy and forgiveness. And then there's another woman who's really, really interested in the issue of how do you lead when things just don't go to plan? Especially if you're somebody who likes planning? How do you lead when things don't go to plan. There are lots of others. But there are a few. And they're really, really interesting angles in as I say, the diversity of the group is fascinating. Actually, the diversity of the angles and the interests within the group are also absolutely fascinating. If you have thoughts on who any of these people should, or any of the members of the expedition should talk to please, please, please send me a message. I want to know best way in the quickest way is to do it through the LinkedIn group, send me messages on LinkedIn. The messages, I love are the ones that you record, because I wake up every morning, I'm very sad. I wake up every morning, and I lie in bed, and I listen to your messages. And it's my new way of waking up in the morning. And, and the truth is, I absolutely love it. So please, if you have thoughts yourself on any of those subjects, or thoughts on who we should talk to, please, please, please tell us.

Julia Middleton 6:21

So onto this episode, this 13th episode, who are we going to interview today? Well, embarrassingly enough, the tables will turn. And it's me who's going to be interviewed today. Some of the early morning messages that I read have been about. Who are you Julian Middleton, you're the expedition leader, we're hearing lots and lots about all the other people on the expedition. Can you tell us more about you. And here's one of the messages I listened to this morning. It's from Paola.

Paola 6:54

I have started following the expedition through the podcast, and I'm learning a lot from the women who speak on it. I would like to know more about what the presenter and the expedition leader Julia Middleton, herself thinks about leadership and where she learned from. Thank you.

Julia Middleton 7:11

Well, Paola, who am I, I am a 64 year old, white straight woman who lives in the UK. I was educated French, I lived for many years in my childhood in the US. I spent 30 years creating Common Purpose, which is an NGO that operates all over the world and which I loved. I created it, I founded it when I was 29. And then ran it for 30 years. I've been married to the same man for the last nearly 40 years. The truth is that he's still the person that I spend most of my time with, and would always choose to spend most of my time with, I have had much luck in who I chose to spend my life with. And I have five children. Youngest is 25, oldest is 35. I have a daughter in-law and a son in-law and I have three grandchildren. While running Common Purpose, I always was doing other things outside mostly helping start other charities and NGOs. I like small operations, risky operations, startup operations. I don't think I'd be good on the board of large organisations. I'm pretty dyslexic, so I tend to move numbers around and get a bit lost in large numbers. So I absolutely focus on small organisations, small startups with passion. I was part of something called the Media Standards Trust, where we felt that we had to do something that would help heal the bridge the split between the citizen and the journalist in the UK. I helped start Alfanar with a friend many many years ago, which is about introducing the concept of venture philanthropy into the Arab world. And I am still on the board of Alfanar. Years ago, there was a cross party think tank that I was part of creating called Demos that still exists in the UK. I was persuaded to do thatecause everybody seems to think and they logically go along a journey and then they sort of stop because, oh no, I can't think that because that would be left wing or right wing. And I love the concept of Demos saying we will go the whole way with a piece of thinking and be unfarced as to which direction of politics it goes into. And more recently, I've supported my middle daughter and my amazing middle daughter in creating something called the REN project, which is for people with autoimmune conditions. That's me. I hope not too, too long. And but here's an interview with a table's turned. Amy Stillman worked with me for for many years. And both experienced and no doubt suffered both my good and my bad leadership. And I thought that, that she was absolutely the right person to push and prod me on the subject of leadership. Here goes.

Julia, it is fantastic to have an opportunity to ask you some questions about your own leadership, having had the pleasure of watching you lead. So let me just start with this. I think that it takes courage to lead, and especially to have the image of creating your own nonprofit before the age of 30. I think it takes courage to do that. Where do you get yours?

Amy, I didn't think I recognise it as courage is the truth. I have just I suppose, I've replaced courage with momentum, you know, you see a need and so you get in there to do something about it. And also, in my case, a sudden blindness about risk. I don't spend a great deal of time thinking about risk or analysing risk. I tend to get in there and have this ridiculous confidence that there will be a way around whatever the problem is.

It seems to me that you are just endlessly curious. Always sort of trying to explore new topics, go into uncharted territory and asking questions. And yet I remember a story you told about your father, seating you at a dinner party, next to someone who I think you thought was quite boring.

Yeah, I was quite young, I must have been about 12, he sat me next to this man. And I went over after the first course, and I said to my dad, honestly, can I be sat somehwere else because this man is so boring. And my father with total fury turned to me and said, "that man is the living expert on tropical fish, if you have not discovered that yet, that's because you're a fool and you should have discovered that by now by talking to him. And this is probably the only time in your life when you're going to get the proper attention of two or three hours of the global expert on tropical fish. Get back in there and talk to him". And the truth is, he was boring on everything except tropical fish. But by the end of that evening, I knew a lot about tropical fish. And I think it is that always finding something in everybody that is fascinating that you can learn and showing them verbally and physically and in every possible way that you are listening to absolutely everything they say and that you are completely focused on it and you are fascinated by it and then people shine. And they give you the knowledge and they give you their ideas. And people often say I get so many good ideas. I don't get loads of good ideas. I just listen to other people's good ideas. And sometimes I connect up a few ideas, that's my contribution. But, but I think good ideas come from really, really sharp, focused listening.

I also though, Julia, remember you saying in moments with colleagues, I've heard what you have said, and we are going to go now in this direction. So acknowledging that you had heard their points, but also there had come a moment when a decision had to be made. And, you know, sometimes I think collaboration is a big thing these days. And sometimes collaboration can lead to consensus and I think your leadership hasn't been about that. Can you talk a little bit about it?

Well, I think I think you have to listen and you have to listen incredibly hard. And And as I've said but and you need to let people know that it's worth them talking because you are listening. But then the does actually come a point where you are the leader and there are five different ways of going forwards. And it's possible that all five ways are really, really good ways to go forward. But you've got to choose one of them. And I think sometimes you have to say 1,2,3 and 4 are brilliant ideas, I'm not knocking them, but we're doing five. And it is my job to choose that. And then as you say, if the next day, you've discovered five was a total disastrous idea, you apologise, and you go back and choose one of the other ones. And the truth is, if, indeed, you are the right person to decide which of these five we should be doing, but this person who's sitting on your left is the person or the person who's sitting on the right is the person to make the decision, then let them make the decision. But it's you as the leader delegating that decisions for them. So you're not cut. You know, I think I deeply believe that collaboration is not giving away leadership. It's not a lighter weight of leadership, is an infinitely greater weight of leadership. Because you have to, you have to collaboration is a hard thing to lead. And it's all about timing.

What do you mean by timing?

When's the moment to say which of the five we're going for? Because if you do it too soon, everybody says you haven't been listening. And if you do it too late, then you've missed the boat. You know, choosing the right moment. And getting that right and getting your legitimacy is absolutely crucial. Pace is important and a delayed decision is often a disastrous decision. And, but that ties in with the ability to admit when you're wrong. So if you've, if you've made a bad decision, you've got to be able to, you know, there is nothing more awful than working for somebody implementing a decision that we all know was the wrong one but they're not prepared to admit it. That is absolutely soul destroying.

I know you've written about core and flex, about how important it is for people to know, what are the boundaries of their core? And what are they willing to flex? I know you you work internationally quite a lot. And how do you learn to adapt to different cultures, different people? And how much are you prepared to flex? Is there a story you could talk about?

Even that, Amy, is quite interesting, because you've used the word willing and prepared. Willing to flex or how much are you prepared to flex? And I often hear the words around flex as almost a compromise. And I didn't see flex as compromise at all. And, and the truth is, the bits that are core to me that if I didn't do them, or believe them, or I would no longer me, they define me to some extent, but it's the flex that I think defines people the most. Were are you prepared to go with other people? But it's not just prepared, where you are delighted to go with other people. You know, where is that wonderful flex that you have, that allows you, that permits you, that empowers you to go into new situations and not sort of say, well, this is the line over which I will not move? The answer to me is these are all the wonderful lines that I'll move all over the place. Because by by moving them all over the place, we we get the pace we get the energy, we get the excitement, we get the joy. You know when you talk about leadership, too many people talk about so many different things and leadership that inspires them. The thing that excites me most about leadership is when you achieve something, you know, success. There's nothing more fun and motivating and exciting than energy and success and pace at something that really matters. So I think you know, anything that gets in the way of that excitement of that momentum is worth knocking around. So, to me, I start with everything's a flex, unless it manages to get to core it'll be pretty difficult for it to get to core.

What are the things that are core to you?

Family, family, being straight? That doesn't mean honest. That means also direct. And not messing about always, always taking a step forward, enthusiasm. I won't do anything unless I can be enthusiastic about it, because it's so much in my core that. So those kinds of things?

And are there examples of how you flexed? Were you surprised yourself?

Oh, endlessly, you know as a grandmother trying to, you know, this is new concept to me, being a grandmother and understanding my own approach to it and I've got five children, so they all have different approaches to bringing up children and being flexible about that and not sort of walking into the house and making a list of what everybody else should do because I've had five children. But I can't even remember what I did with five children anyhow. So you know, you have to be, you have to have flex, because then you're welcome in the house.

I know that you have written a lot about the importance of learning how to lead beyond one's authority. And what what do you mean by that? And how can good leaders learn how to do this? How have you learned how to lead beyond your authority?

Well, I mean, authority is an interesting word, isn't it? Because in a funny way, the more senior you get, the more you realise how little authority you have, and how the tiny bit that you have, you have to use incredibly carefully because if you throw it around too much, you lose it. But leading beyond authority seems to me to be interesting, because there are situations in which you do have unlimited authorities and then there's lots of situations where you're leaving partnerships or collaborations where you don't have authority. So you have to learn to lead through the power of excitement, the power of pace, the power of energy, the power of purpose, or you know, the power of communication. But in my experience, too, when people begin to lead in situations where they can't tell anybody what to do, they get much better at those other kinds of powers. And actually, when they go back into positions of authority, they use their power much more likely. They're much better at persuading the people around them to use their power to make their own decisions, even if the rotten ones. Now, I don't think the job of a leader is to empower people to make a mistake. So if you can see somebody who's going to walk into a terrible mistake, and you sit back and say nothing, then I think that's pretty cruel myself. And sometimes people do that and say, well, I was empowering them. Well, I don't think that's fair. But I think in most cases, you don't know if it's a mistake, you think it's a good idea trying, and you push people to make their own decisions, they don't need your authority, and you give them your authority with you know, you hand it over to them with the greatest of pleasure. But I think it's important to get out of the habit of using authority.

Even within an organisation, even where there may be some authority?

Even within it, you know, the joy of the joy of, why am I saying this to an American, but you know, one of the joys is going on long holidays and discovering that everybody was fine without you. That's that's cool success. And that means that means when you come back from holiday, you can put your feet on the table and plan what's going to happen in two years time not what's gonna happen next week. You know, the leadership needs to be handed over as much as you possibly can. With the caveat that there is then sometimes the moment when you have to make a decision having chosen the right moment.

Julia, I remember many stories that you've told in the course of our relationship and how important stories are. I remember once you told a story about being in your garden, and looking at a very tall and majestic tree, how beautiful and impressive it was but noticing that nothing could grow underneath it because its branches were blocking the sun and I always remember that, you know, what's the message there about leadership and how leaders sometimes need to take a step back perhaps.

You know, that tree is a copper beech and it's absolutely beautiful. And it's been there for hundreds of years, but actually, it's gone. It's gone in the last two years. And you would not believe the amount of foxgloves that have grown underneath it. It's where all around it, is an absolute sea of foxgloves. It's absolutely beautiful. So maybe, you know, when you cut me down, hopefully there'll be masses and masses of foxgloves. There's a real danger that you become convinced of your own rightness and convinced of your own importance, and and the foliage gets thicker and thicker, and no one can grow underneath you. I deeply believe in that concept that, you know, the quality of a leader in the end is about what happens when they're no longer there. And so you have to allow people to come up around you, and most importantly and particularly in modern day is they have to be of any age.

I've heard you talking in a previous podcast that insider leaders need to cultivate contacts with outsiders. And outsider leaders need to cultivate allies inside in order to be able to make change happen. And of course, both are needed. But you are a bit of a disrupter. So how did you get comfortable with being a disrupter and can disruptors ever really be the leaders themselves if their whole existence is around disrupting something.

You know, that interview with Lisa was fantastic. And it's an example of how much I've learned in only the last few weeks of running this expedition. There's so much to learn from these women. And that was a big one for me. I think both insiders and outsiders are needed. And as Lisa makes the point, they both need each other. I'm particularly good at doing it from the outside. I don't enjoy the power of large organisations and I have quite a lot of confidence and, and sort of, I'm quite an independent agent, and I put my foot in it very often and i'm far too crude. So therefore, I think I probably made the decision that being an outsider was was the right position for me. And then, you know, tying myself up well, with the insiders as well. And working well together has been crucial to me. You know, in Britain, everything seems once you've become successful people sort of pull you towards the establishment. And I've worked very, very hard to never join the establishment because I don't think I really belong in it. And I think actually, if you go back to that core and flex, I think part of my core is that I am an outsider. And if I then get drawn into being an insider, I think I will make a compromise, I will be inauthentic and lose my power.

One of the things I love about your expedition is that it's 24 interesting, and different women working together, but they will influence all of their networks who will influence all of their networks. And this will spread on its own, which is exciting, and which is the sort of dissemination of power through other people's networks. And just to let it go, let it run.

Yes, absolutely. In some ways, I am the right person to lead this expedition. Because I'm very happy for all the women on the expedition to do their own thing and fly their own kites and rock their own boats or whatever it is. and not try to control it too much. Because if we do try to control it, it will be good. If we don't try to control it, it will be brilliant.

Let's stop there, Julia. That's an awesome quote. I love the idea of floating your boat and sailing your kite. I like the sort of the different levels of that.

It's done. I've stopped talking about myself. I absolutely hate doing it. But thank you very, very much, Amy, for your kindness and your time. Next week, I promise to get back to the real people, the people on the expedition, all the members who are working so hard to find the approach to leadership that resonates for women. Yeah, I am hopeless at this sort of stuff. You know, years ago, I remember there was a programme in the UK called Question Time and it's a panel of sorts and you're supposed to be terribly clever and terribly intelligent. And I remember going on my way to the question time recording and I literally vomiting in the street with terror. And then I did it and the truth, yes it is true, I spent the next three days holed up in my bedroom hiding with Tom, who at that stage, my youngest, was six months old. And I decided that he was the only person in the world who hadn't listened to my humiliation on Question Time. I re-emerged after three days, but it took a long time. It's hard, it's funny, isn't it? People think that you're so outward going and so noisy. But revealing your own thoughts and talking about yourself, some of us find it really quite hard.

Thank you for listening to the podcast. We would love you to follow the expedition and provide your own stories and perspectives. You can do this by subscribing to this podcast and joining the women emerging group on LinkedIn where you can have your say.