Devin C. Hughes is an award-winning speaker, workplace culture expert, best-selling author of numerous books including a memoir, “Contrast: A Biracial Man’s Journey to Segregate His Past,” and a former college basketball player.

After a successful career in a global pharmaceutical company, Devin left corporate life to found his own training and consulting firm where he inspires groups and helps organizations and teams to break down barriers and make communication easier through greater awareness.

I had gotten to the point I just was like, Okay, I've done this. No one thought I could. I've done it at a high level. What else can I do? Fast forward, and I'll say this, I was given a talk at a rotary club random Just out of nowhere, someone asked me to give a talk, and maybe this is kind of sort of how life works. And when I got off the stage, a man approached me and said, Hey, have you ever thought about writing a book?

Welcome to the MY FOURTH ACT podcast. I'm your host, Achim Nowak, and I have conversations with exceptional humans who have created bold and unexpected lives. If you like what you here, please subscribe on any major podcast platform so you won't miss a single one of my inspiring guests, and please consider posting an appreciative review. Let's get started. I am very happy to welcome Devin Hughes to the MY FOURTH ACT podcast. Devin is an award winning keynote speaker, a best selling author, a leadership coach and a workplace culture thought leader. Among his books, he has written a very compelling memoir called contrast a biracial man's journey to desegregate his past. Hey, Devin, welcome.

Hey, thanks for having me super excited to be here today.

Me too. And just for context for our listeners, I had the pleasure of briefly meeting Devin before he embarked on this incredible next act in his life that I just outlined. And one of the reasons I wanted to speak with you is that I knew you in one phase of your life, and then you left that to create something completely different. And you, in many ways, have lived many people's dreams, but going back when you were young women growing up Devin and you thought about what you wanted to do with your life as an adult, what was in your mind,

I wish I could say that I had it all mapped out, or I kind of aspired to be. I came from some pretty compelling circumstances. My mother had me when she was 18. Barely graduated high school. My father dropped out of high school in the ninth grade. There was no extended family around my house was riddled with addiction issues. I'm actually dyslexic myself, and I say that just to give you the backstory, and I say that to say this, really what I wanted to do is get out of my circumstances. I just knew that this is not the life that I wanted. Now, there was love in the house, a lot of love, but there's just challenging and it was upside down. And I think sometimes you don't really know what you don't know. And I fast forward to that because of my academic challenges and behavior issues. I struggled as a kid. I spent more time in the principal's office than I spent in the classroom. I was sent to military school, and that's kind of sort of where my life started to change. Achim when I went to military school in ninth grade, and I started to aspire to be more because I was around people that were talking about things like university, yeah, and then I saw life that kind of sort of that I wanted, and that's where I started to figure out. I didn't know specifically what I was going to do, but I knew there was an opportunity to do more with with what I had,

yeah. So I want to make a mental leap right now, because when I met you, you are living a little north of San Diego, you're working for a big international pharmaceutical company, had a good job in that company, and given your story and given what you're doing now, This feels like like a stop along the road. So I'm wondering, how did you end up in that line of work doing, in pharmaceuticals? How did you end up there?

I guess, much like life in general, a lot of serendipity. I probably had 1516, jobs before that, and not to say because you don't know, you don't know. And I think all of us who has it figured out right now exactly, but I didn't know what I didn't know. And I was trying to figure out how I take my strengths, my gifts, so to speak, and what I could do. And what I found is, with my backstory, I was put in so many challenging circumstances, I felt like I had a psychology degree by 10th grade. I mean, I just whether it was different religions, different cultures, different foods, different socioeconomic etc. I ended up there randomly. And I mean, again, this is so random. I found that sale. Goals and, or commercial and, or leading people and, or getting a group to kind of become together and one and to create a goal was something I was really good at, and I liked being on teams. And so that whole experience where I ended up there was, again, it wasn't planned. It was just me kind of, sort of throwing myself out there and putting myself in situations to grow. Now I say that to say this, because I feel like I'm rambling. I didn't have any biotech experience. I wasn't a pharmaceutical rep. I didn't do anything. I mean, I was just a person who was hungry and aggressive and was a quick and able learner. And I got an opportunity at that organization, and I moved up really, really quickly. And so when you saw me, you saw a more finished product. You didn't see

what interests me. Because as an executive coach, I, I have the privilege of coaching some very successful people in pharma. And, you know, people have very strong feelings and opinions about pharma, people who've never worked in pharma, you know, and have opinions that are not positive, you clearly had a chance to work there, and you were elevated quickly. You had a chance to develop some skills and know what to use. So let me just test this one, because I want to talk about why you got out. But we get there is if you have to think of a moment or two where you say, Well, I'm grateful that I got to do this in that world, a moment where you go, wow, I actually got to do this. What moment or moments come to mind? The

device that I had, it was used in the operating room, so I spent a lot of time in scrubs and walking around operating rooms throughout, you know, North America. So there were a few moments didn't stand out when you'd for example, we know one particular we were working a C section, and this product could be used for women who had C sections. And so I remember coaching a new doctor through a procedure how to use it. And I remember the look on his face when he got it right. And then at the other end of that was a baby being born, wow. And then it kind of like, you hit me, like, wow. Like, I mean, as benign as that may be, a conversation started in his office. We took it to labor and delivery. He applies it, I could see the euphoria in his face that he used it and he was also doing something good, and then the end product of it was a baby being born. And it kind of came full circle for me, like this is a big deal.

I appreciate this story because I heard different people in that industry tell their version of that story, when one of them when we realize the impact that the work we have can have, you know that can have on other people in the world. And you told that so beautifully. Now, why did you get out of that line of work?

Variety of reasons, but I think one of the biggest, and I think a lot of people have this is I had a little bit of destination addiction. That's the preoccupation that I would be happy for the next day. Like, it's like you climb Mount Everest, what else is there to climb? You constantly aspiring for more. Like you, it's never enough. And so I gotten to the point team, I got the awards, and I got the trips, and I was making a nice wage, and I was doing all the things, but I looked around and I'm like, is this it? Is this really all there is now, some might look at that and go, Wow, it's pretty egotistical. But for me, it was like, we have a pretty short shelf life. And I looked at it, and I'm like, you know, if you look at the mortality tables, most of us get about 80 summers, yeah. And so I had gotten to the point I just was like, Okay, I've done this. No one thought I could. I've done it at a high level. What else can I do? Fast forward, and I'll say this, I was given a talk at a rotary club random. Just out of nowhere, someone asked me to give a talk. And maybe this is kind of sort of how life works. And when I got off the stage, a man approached me and said, Hey, have you ever thought about writing a book? And I said, Of course. Well, no, who thinks about that? Unless, I mean, I'm in corporate America, I don't know, yeah, I was like, Well, no, I hadn't thought your story is compelling. You need to tell it more often. And I want to help you tell story. You tell your story. If I look at all those moments in my life, I think that was a pretty compelling moment that kind of hit the made me reboot about what was possible and that kind of sort of fast forwarded, kind of where I am today.

It's beautiful that somebody said that to you. I remember. I didn't say this to you, but to our listeners, to all of us, there's a power in the random things we say to people, because they may be random to us, but they can share. Change a person's life, right? That's the moment you just described, which is probably not a big deal to the other party involved. But you could have just written a book in done occasional speeches at the rotary or whatever, and it could have been a really nice side hustle, right? But you went all in, and that's a different commitment. So when did you go all in? Or how did you decide that I'm going to go all in, and this is my my passion, my mission, the thing I want to do in my next phase?

Yeah, I Well, it's interesting, right? Because when you when you flip the switch from corporate to the entrepreneur, and again, I'm generalizing a bit, but I've talked to a few people. You don't realize as much as you complain about work, and most people do, there's a certain level of safety with something that shows up every two weeks in your bank account called an ACH predictability, right? You don't realize it's when I went full throttle. I didn't realize how much self doubt, there would be unpredictability, lack of confidence, all of the above. So I think the demons that I had to fight like, Wow, am I good enough? Is this capable? And the thing about it, Achim, is, if I do a post mortem and look back, I think the people you surround yourself are really, really important. Are they pouring into your cup or poking holes into your cup? Early on in my career, I had a lot of people telling me, Devin, you're crazy. What are you doing? You had a big corporate job. Why would you do this at that inflection point, the only way that I knew how to do it was full throttle and go 1000 miles an hour, knowing that if I didn't for some reason, if I wasn't successful, my get out of jail card was I could always go back and do it again, but I would, I didn't want regret. So it was more of an inner dialog that I had to have, and then occasionally meeting people like you along the way, and that's how it ended up the way it did.

If I remember this correctly, I know you have a spouse, I believe you have four children, right, correct? That's a big leap when we have a sizable family that also wants us to somewhat be a provider,

right? Yeah? Well, yeah, if I can just touch on that, I am blessed. You know, partner, spouse, whoever you had. There were some nights and days that I came home and I was sideways, yeah. I mean, if it was a prize fight, it came, I was on the ropes and I was trying to hang on for my life. I'm like, Is this really going to do it? Is this really resonating? Like, is now then? I mean, just all that inner dialog, you know, whether it's athletics or drama or the arts, everyone kind of sort of knows those demons that appear. I say that to say this, my wife, in those quiet moments, said to me, and I can remember I was yesterday, she said, you've always found a way to get it done. You've always found a way to be successful. Why all of a sudden would you think right now that you couldn't do it again? And I was like, wow, and that's all I needed

to hear. And that's really, I mean, your wife channeling the voice of God. You know, that's powerful. Yeah, that's powerful. Now you just described beautifully, or this is what I heard, that when we take this leap, it's a deeper journey into who we are, because in the end, whoever buys your services isn't buying the big pharma company. They're really buying you offer, right? And then you write this book, and it has this compelling subtitle about desegregating your past. That's obviously a very intentional choice of language. So would you speak to that? What are some things that you Devon had to desegregate about your past and your identity?

There was a lot of, well, shame, guilt, and if I look back, I never really felt like I belonged. I wasn't black enough in some black communities, I wasn't white enough in other communities. And so feeling like the other I didn't really realize it until I got later on. I had always been carrying that with me. Also. My parents didn't know to home. We lived in some pretty challenging circumstances, so I always felt kind of sort of less than and so what happens, though, is you compartmentalize it, you don't talk about it, you ignore it, but as you well know, it doesn't go away. I felt, in order to overcome it, I had to go through it. What I found is, as I wrote the book, it was cathartic. Actually had some really compelling conversations with my father that we never had as a child. He was like, wow, I didn't know that that impacted you that way. Yeah. That was one anecdote, and then there was a couple others along the way, when I would tell my story and get so raw and real, I found that people really resonated with it, because they had their own life challenges that we didn't talk about, in essence, gave me fuel to keep doing the work.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Now I described when I introduced you, the scale of the work you do. You You're a keynote speaker. You've written more than this book. I've written more. You do leadership development, you do coaching. In my life, I have things I prefer to over other things. I became very explicit about it. So do you like it all equally? Or are the things you like more than others? And if so, what might those be?

Yeah. I mean, I play in a pretty finite sandbox in terms of, typically, organizations, again, that profit, non profit, doesn't matter. Where we have to get human beings to coalesce in. How do we get an environment where people can thrive, if we get it right, outcomes improve. So in that I mean from communication to emotional intelligence. I mean, you kind of sort of name it. The good thing is, I have a pretty wide data set. I've worked in so many organizations with so many different types of people. We've got four generations in the workforce Achim with everything else going on in the world, and based on my backstory, I've kind of sort of done it or been around it. So I tend, and I don't say this to sensational you just

called yourself old.

Yeah, I don't sensationalize this. I tend to play best words are messy. Yeah, my hypothesis is we're all good people, but sometimes we normalize bad behavior. I tend to play often, and you're right. I do a variety of work, but if I had to pick all of that work, I think keynote is probably my favorite, just but I enjoy it all, probably much like you and other people listening today, I never get up not excited to do work. I feel inspired every single day. I feel like the work matters. The ability to make an impact matters. That's where I play most and feel the most energy right now,

since I mentioned the work, the word workplace culture, which encompasses a whole bunch of things you just alluded to if there was somebody listening to our conversation now and they're thinking, Well, what's one piece of advice I could get from Devon about creating a better workplace culture? What would be one thing that would be sort of toward the top of your suggestion, regardless of the specific environment? Because environments, yeah, contextually different

at a high level, I would say this, there's three things that every human being wants at work, based on my research, three things, and they are not perks, parties and pizza.

Is everybody had lots of those in their corporate

career. They are not perks, parties and pizza. I have found that everyone wants to be seen heard and valued, seen heard and valued. So in an opportunity to operationalize that, and I'm talking specifically about norms and behaviors again, and what you can essentially do equip leaders with tools. See, I didn't realize this, and I don't want to go off on my sandbox, but I mean, I had intellectualized this conversation. What I found is I was taught that human beings that are thinking machines that feel I actually disagree. I think we're feeling machines that think I totally agree with you. We feel everything when the temperature changes, when an eye roll. So when I got to that space, it came that's where I like to play, and that's where I do my make my biggest impact.

Now we're recording this summer of 2025 and I had to check a little earlier when you described how And historically, you would get to the point where you say, Is that all there is, and then you want another challenge or another excitement. So what I'm wondering your accomplish in all of these areas, as you think to the future and as your kids are getting older, are there other things you're dreaming about that you would like to do that perhaps you haven't done yet?

I'm in a very creative place right now. I'm in the midst of publishing a series of children's literature. Nice. So you hear that like, okay, it's great, except my children's literature is going to have a little bit different twist. It's going to be either the lead characters will be people of color, or young girls and their superpowers will be that they're smart and kind of blow up some of the tropes and stereotypes. Or my children's literature will have a little bit of fun and play, but it'll also. Have some belief systems, some mantras, some affirmations. If you ask the question, I'm really passionate about that right now, because I find that if you can get early on in a kid's belief system, feeling like they matter, that they belong, that things are possible, that there's a lot of Devons and the kings running around the world trying to figure themselves out, and you don't need the whole world to believe in you. You said it before. All you need one time is one person to show you a better way. So that's what I'm really on a pursuit right now.

As I'm listening to you, it's so clear to me that you have a you have the energy of a doer. You know, you're a high energy person. You're very focused. And just the communication with me, which I love. Do you ever stop? What does stopping look like for you? I mean that without judgment, I'm genuinely curious. Like, do you just say, Oh, I'm gonna do nothing for three weeks? Or is that something that's just constitutionally not where you go?

Yeah, I have a really hard time with that. And I think part of it is one. I love what I do. I think the mission matters, yeah, I think the the ability to affect change matters, and I don't want to waste time. I don't have a lot of hobbies. I don't play golf, I don't run marathons, I don't hike. I write then I spend time with quiet people. If I answer that question, because I don't know I was thinking about that as you were, about that as you're asking it, I think conversations like this, I love deep conversation. I'm not a chit chat guy. I'm not a surface level guy. I'm a push me to fake let's go read a good book. Let's do something where, cognitively, I'm in a good place. So it's me, you and whomever, at a campfire. It's going on a walk, it's having coffee. I think those are the benign moments that I think kind of recharge my battery. And the other thing I think that I'm doing right now, I'm trying to do is take a little, what I call mini vacations. Take a Friday off, have a three day weekend, do something like

that. What do you do during those three

days? I spend as much time as I can with the people that are in manners circle that I love and care about. I realized early on, the quality of friendships, it's not the number of people in your circle, it's the quality of the people. So my circles gotten smaller. My wife and I, we have a ritual every every weekend we go we live near the coast, so we walk along the beach, we sit without devices, and we do something our ancestors used to do. It came we talked to each other, yeah, big check in. And people laugh, and I'm like, Yeah, we talked how was the week? What are you grateful for? What did you learn about yourself? We can do next week? How can I support you? That's the stuff that really fuels me at this point.

It's very clear and beautiful. Now, if you, as did the Devon of today, had a chance to so offer some wisdom to younger Devon who grew up in messy and challenging circumstances, not to change the trajectory of your life. That's not the point. But what's something you know right now that you would say to maybe the Devons who are listening that might be helpful guidance, because you you didn't know it then, but you know it now.

I'd say, Stop waiting to be ready. Yeah, most life changing moves that when I look at the totality of my life happened when I was shaking, doubting, second guessing, breathing through fear. Then I found that the idea that confidence comes first is a myth. Action creates confidence. Courage isn't the absence of fear. It's that your refusal to stay frozen in it, yeah, and if I look at my life, that was the ability to just one step, push forward, that's what I'd say, go for it, do it.

I'm wired the same way, so I appreciate your clarity in articulating it before I let you go. Where would you like to send our listeners who want to learn more about you and your writing and the work that you

do. So you can certainly find me on my website, Devin C hughes.com you can find my books on Amazon, and I have a blog on sub stack. I write two to three articles a week. So one of those places, you can certainly find about yours truly.

Devin, thank you for the conversation. Thank you for I heard a lot of passion and I heard a lot of clarity, and that's a beautiful thing. So until the next time. Ciao, ciao,

thank you for having me My pleasure.

Thank you so much for listening to this episode of The my fourth act podcast. If you like what you have heard, please like us and leave a review on your preferred podcast platform. And if you would like to engage more deeply in fourth act conversations, check out the mastermind. Age at Achim novak.com it's where fourth actors like you engage in riveting conversation with other fourth actors see you there and bye for now you.