In this episode, Zoe shares her transformative journey from a conservative Christian upbringing steeped in guilt and purity culture to embracing her true identity and sexuality. Reflecting on the impact of religious trauma on self-esteem and relationships, she highlights her path to healing through bodywork and self-compassion. Zoe’s story offers hope and inspiration for reclaiming authenticity and self-acceptance.

Who Is Zoe?

With over 14 years of experience in the bodywork and spa industry, including a transformative role as International Trainer for the eco-luxe brand Sodashi, Zoe has worked with some of the world’s most renowned luxury spas, including One&Only, Four Seasons, and Shangri-La. Known for inspiring teams and delivering impactful, transformational training, Zoe became a standout trainer in the industry.

Drawing on years of insight, Zoe recognised a gap in the spa world: the need for therapists to cultivate presence, intention, and the ability to create deeply transformative guest experiences. This realisation led her to create Body Whispering, evolving from offering treatments at home to building a thriving business with over 300 clients and taking her unique approach on tour across Australia.

Connect With Us

• Find more about Zoe's offerings via her website - https://www.zoebutler.com.au/
• You can also connect over on Instagram - @zoebutler.bodywhisperer

• You can find out more about Sam on her website - www.anchoredcounsellingservices.com.au
• To connect with Sam on Instagram - @anchoredcounsellingservices
• Want to contact with Sam about the podcast or therapy? Use this contact form.

I would like to begin by acknowledging the traditional custodians of the land on which I live and work, the Gundagara land and people.

I pay my respects to their elders, past, present and emerging, and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people.

I also want to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the lands on which you, our listeners, are joining us from today.

I recognise the deep connection that first nations people have to this land, their enduring culture and their commitment to the preservation and care for their country.

This land was never ceded and it always was and always will be Aboriginal land.

Hey there and welcome to beyond the Surface, the podcast where we explore the stories of people who have survived religious trauma, left high control occult communities and are deconstructing their faith.

I'm your host, Sam, and each week I'll talk with individuals who have taken the brave step to start shifting their beliefs that might have once controlled and defined their lives.

Join us as we dig into their experiences, the challenges they've faced and the insights they've gained.

Whether you're on a similar journey or you're just curious about these powerful stories, you're in the right place.

This is beyond the Surface.

Welcome Zoe, thanks for joining me.

Thank you for having me.

I.

I want to give a little context before we jump in as to how I know you, but we grew up in the same area and went to the same high school.

I, you know, it's different years, but you're.

One of your siblings.

Was in my years, so I sort of know you through that.

But I now sort of know you mainly because of the work that you do in body whispering and massage and things like that.

And I know that that will all come up, so I don't want to get straight into that, but I guarantee that it will all come up.

But in terms of your story with church and faith and spirituality, where does that start for you?

Yeah, so it starts, I guess when I was born or in early childhood.

My mom is a devout Christian, still is.

So I grew up going to the church every Sunday and it was a huge, huge part of my life for the most part.

I went to Christian based primary schools as well.

So yeah, there was, there was a big portion of my life where I was living and breathing Christianity and being a child of God.

And yeah, it wasn't until I went to high school really, that my mom kind of gave us permission to move in whatever direction felt good and it no longer felt good for me.

So, yeah, I grew up a very devout Christian child and I Was my whole like way of thinking and life and everything was pretty much centered around God and around man.

What, what I.

This might be a weird word, but what flavor of Christianity were you raised with?

Like Anglican?

Yeah.

Was it, was it quite conservative or was it fairly progressive?

I would say pretty conservative I guess with the way that my family is.

My mom is very Christian, my dad is not.

And my friends and like family friends on my dad's side were very.

Not as well.

So I feel like I grew up somewhat with like a foot in like a very non conservative way of living, looking at life and things.

But then with my mom and on my mom's side was very much in the church, the church itself.

I went to many churches.

I think they would maybe have called themselves progressive, but I would disagree.

So I would say it's conservative but not in the like super extreme sense.

Yeah.

What was it like for you as a child to have, I guess like a split face home?

Well, my mom and dad divorced when I was young, so I was three or something when they separated.

But it was.

I definitely remember it being a.

Yeah.

Something that I thought about and, and was concerned about.

And what's really interesting now is my brothers and I, we look back and we read the letters that we used to write my dad.

And because we didn't always live near him, he lived in the Blue Mountains and we for most of my childhood were living up north and going to church up there and we would write to him and we look back now and there has some letters that we found where we're trying to convert him to Christianity.

And it is the most fascinating thing to read because it is like you can feel our conditioning in it and almost like a weird air of brainwashing.

We're writing to my dad and it'll be like, you know, we've been going to soccer, we've been doing this, we've been doing that.

And then all of a sudden it will switch to like, have you heard the word of Jesus?

And it would be like this fool, like he will save you from your s.

It was, it's so fascinating to look back on.

So it was, it was challenging because my dad just was very anti it, as were my grandparents on his side.

Like they stopped giving us birthday money because we would just give it straight to the church.

So there was some friction there and I think as children who were fully believing everything we were absorbing, we wanted our dad to be saved, you know.

So, yeah, definitely created some, some.

Yeah, some friction, I suppose.

Yeah.

Do you remember Whether at the time you there was that the need to tell him about Jesus because you, you know, had a personal relationship with him, or was it fear based?

Like, was it because you didn't want him to go to hell?

Probably a bit of both.

As a kid and growing up, I very, I lived in like I had a very personal relationship with God with, you know, that energy, but it was at the time very driven by fear.

Yeah.

And so, yeah, my desire to have other people saved definitely came from a fear of losing them more than going to hell.

For sure.

Yeah.

Was, was that something that you were explicitly taught or was it just something that you understood from the people around you?

Yeah, it's just something that I was, that I understood.

My, my, my home itself was pretty open.

Like my mom, she's very Christian, but very open to all sorts of people and ways of thinking and being.

And there was a lot that we absorbed through Sunday school and through our friends and through their parents and through just being so immersed in Christian culture.

My mom and I talk about it now and she'll be like, I don't remember ever instilling that in you.

And I'm like, you didn't have to.

You don't.

When you're so immersed in that environment, you can't control necessarily what kids are absorbing.

Just because it's not taught in the home doesn't mean it's not taught in the church.

So yeah, definitely more so.

Something I picked up in Sunday school and in the church itself.

Yeah, I think so often we think that those internalized messages come from being explicitly taught.

Yeah, I think we think that it's coming from like, you know, preaching from the pulpit and like very explicitly being taught.

But so much of that comes from like implicit subtle messaging that is happening generally on a, on a very regular basis.

Were you guys just a church on a Sunday kind of family or were you like immersed in it every day of the week?

Church on a Sunday, but then at home, you know, we would pray and have conversations about God and about the Bible, but and then at school as well, because I was going to Christian schools.

That was sort of woven into day to day structure or life.

But yeah, church was mainly on Sundays.

What was it like going to a Christian school?

What was that experience like?

It's funny, I have so many random memories of going to school because it was a very small school.

It was like there was like 26 people from like kindergarten to year six.

So it was very small, close knit.

And the thing that stands out to me actually the most is probably the leadership drama.

Like, there was always so much friction between who's trying to lead and control and take over and who knows best.

Like, as a child, I remember being very aware of the.

Because it was so small, everyone was so hyper involved.

So.

Yeah.

I mean, it wasn't like our classes or days revolved around the church, but it was just sort of woven in here or there.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's.

It feels a little bit like church politics.

Hey.

Yeah.

Oh, yeah.

100.

That would be the word for it.

Yeah.

There was just.

Everybody is right.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's crazy.

Yeah.

Yeah.

What.

What were some of the, like, the internalized messages that you had about yourself, about the world around you?

The strongest things I remember were definitely, like, I had this thing as a kid that I was just asking for forgiveness all the time in my mind.

After, if I accidentally swore inside my own head, not even out loud, I would be praying for forgiveness because I was convinced that if I didn't that I would go to hell.

So there was a lot of, like, internalized fear around having to be good.

And I definitely became.

Had that like, good girl Persona, I suppose, or this fear that I had to be good.

And I guess what it meant to be good was to be quiet and to obey and to submit and to apologize and to like, over give as well.

So I definitely carried.

Even after I left the church, that become.

Became a foundation of my personality was this need to be good, to be liked, to please, to make people proud.

And even in the church, like, you know, I do bodywork and massage and I guess, forms of healing now.

But my relationship to my hand started in the church because I.

For whatever reason, I don't know how it happened, but I became known for having healing hands in the church.

And so I would pray for people and be asked to pray for people.

So I did have this very real connection to a higher power, like moving through my body, through my hands.

But I felt this immense responsibility to heal.

And I'm like, I can't even play, you know, Like, I'm.

I'm.

I'm on the job, you know, so it's like that's been a huge part of my gift and my work now.

But it came with a lot of warped.

Yeah.

Like, psychological ties to it.

Yeah.

How you at the time?

Probably about 6 or 7.

Oh, my God.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So young.

Yeah.

I mean, like, that's really fucked up to put that kind of pressure on.

Like, I mean, you're a child, right.

Like, you know, to.

To Put the pressure of somebody else's ailment, irrespective of what that is on anybody, is overwhelming, let alone putting that on a child who you know, realistically should just be out running around with their friends playing and enjoying life and not necessarily worried about the people around you.

Like even from an emotional standpoint, the pressure that that puts on somebody.

Yeah, it's, it's, it's such a double edged sword because it like it also gave me a sense of gratification and meaning and validation which then I had a very unhealthy relationship with.

Needing to be validated, needing to be perfect, needing to be important, needing to be.

I loved being important in the church.

And so yeah, it is a lot of pressure.

And I've definitely over the years had to, especially because I use that gift now my work is, I've had to detangle it.

And yeah, I've really become aware of like the unhealthy attachments to, to the gift or to that where that started in the church.

But yeah, I think like it, I just had such a, this pressure to, for perfection that was really instilled and that if you're not, you know, it's like this constant striving to be good and perfect and it, it really pushes you to see the bad in you sometimes.

And then as I got older and started to, you know, expand my world views and also became, you know, attracted to the same sex and like all these things, it's, it's, yeah, you, you really see where this need to be good and perfect is.

Yeah.

And it, you know, there is the, it's the irony of, you know, you are told time and time again to try and be more like Jesus.

But Jesus is also then taught that he is the epitome of perfection.

And so you are then just in a constant cycle of just striving to be perfect.

And then I feel like on top of that, particularly more so for women or people who are socialized as women in the church, there is the not just you don't just need to strive for perfection, you also need to strive for purity.

And so it's like the, I need, I mean one more P in that and you've got a sermon, I feel like, but where everything is like alliteration.

But yeah, it is.

I mean, I would agree.

I think I often talk about the fact that I would repetitively pray the sinner's prayer essentially because it's like, what if, like, what if I had like screwed up since the last time that I had done that and I'm conscious of it.

Um, and so it puts you in a state of, like, chronic anxiety to.

To be constantly striving for something that is ultimately unattainable and.

And really unhealthy, to be striving for that as well.

I'm curious what it was like for you to start broadening your concept of your own sexuality.

Having been raised in an environment that often suppresses anything out of heterosexuality and heterodontivity.

It was such a mixed experience.

And I think as far as experiences go for Christians like mine was probably less severe than what some people go through.

I think after I.

Because we had been living away from my dad and then we moved back to the Blue Mountains and that's when I started to go to Lithgow High School, where you were.

And that reconnected me to a world that I had been so separate from at that point.

I didn't know, like, I had only ever really listened to Christian music.

I didn't know any, like, mainstream music, mainstream movies.

I didn't know I was so, like, sheltered, I suppose.

But I guess I fell into a certain group at school and that everything changed and, yeah, I guess I just started to become my own person and I.

My mum.

Yeah.

Like I said, she gave us permission to choose our own path and you can keep coming to church with me or you don't have to.

And we all chose to stop going.

And I then started to explore, yeah, like, you know, drinking and smoking and, like, all these little things and music and different clothes and movies and foods.

And with that came my own.

Yeah, sexuality.

And I even.

Even just moving forward with intimacy with boys back then, or, you know, not even intimacy, just flirting or, like, connection.

That was edgy enough.

Like, that was so far out of, like, the purity culture that all the purity stuff that I had embedded in myself.

So when I started to notice an attraction to the same sex, it was really confronting.

And I'll always remember how that came about for me, which was a backstory.

On school holidays, we went to, like, a caravan park and there was a girl there that was staying there with her parents and we connected.

We swapped MSN addresses at the time.

And there is going to be, like, a whole generation of people who have no idea what that is.

And that's, like, so sad.

I miss msn.

And so we stayed.

We stayed in touch.

I'm going to share.

This is so embarrassing.

But basically I had a best friend at school and she became really good friends with somebody else and I got Jealous.

She then kissed that girl at school.

And I was disgusted.

Like, I was so angry about it.

And so what I thought was disgust, like, I was like.

And I literally was so triggered by it that I changed my MSN status to something about like, oh, my God.

Ooh, I can't believe you did that at school.

Something, something, something.

Anyway, this girl that I had met on holiday, she messaged me about it.

I was like, what are you talking about?

And it opened this conversation.

Well, my best friend, she kissed this girl and she said, what's wrong with that?

And I was like, I.

It's just wrong.

It's just not okay.

And she.

And then we started to have a conversation.

She was a bit older than me and she was bisexual.

And it made me realize that I wasn't.

I was actually jealous.

Like, I wanted that.

And.

But the only emotion I knew for that was disgust and to reject and to push away and to hurt.

Want to hurt her.

I didn't know what to do with that feeling.

So I then was hurtful with it.

And so from there I started to be like, oh, girls can like girls.

That's insane.

And coming from a small town, like, you would know in Lithgow, that's not something that is widely demonstrated and you don't really have anybody to talk to about it, anybody to explore, you know, about it.

So I felt very alone and very secretive and suppressed with that feeling.

All I had was the girl on msn.

And sometimes I would fake sick and stay home and go into chat rooms to talk to girls to explore that.

So it was like, as a teenager, it was so confusing.

And then when I was in year eight, we moved to America because that's where my mum is from.

And we went to an American school.

And this is probably one of the biggest blessings for me because I went into this school and I was exposed to people, ethnicities, sexualities, gender, like all sorts of things that I'd never ever seen before.

And everybody over there was bisexual, queer, whatever, my, you know.

And so it gave me permission to explore that part of myself.

And I saw myself in these other people.

And so that was about 13, 14.

I made a best friend over there, fell in love with her, never told her.

Long story short, I went back again when I was 16 and she was the first girl I ever kissed.

What a nice full circle moment.

It was such a full circle moment.

And.

And that was when I told my mum because my mum picked her up from.

Picked me up from her house and she knew.

And I said to My mum.

No, she said to me because I had a hickey on my neck, but anyway, that'll give it away.

Yeah, she said, so you like.

You like Megan, huh?

And I was like, yeah, we're really good friends.

And she's like, no, I mean, you like her?

And I was like, yeah, I do.

And she was like, okay, let's get pancakes.

And that was it.

So my mum's always been pretty accepting.

We've had some hard conversations later down the road, though, especially when gay marriage was becoming legalized.

And it almost.

The tough bit, and this has been probably the toughest bit for me with her and other people in my life, is they accept me for me, but they still think the sexuality is a sin.

Yeah.

And so that, for me has been the hardest bit to navigate, is like, I can't find peace with that, that you can accept me and you love me, but you still see my choice to be with a woman as a sin.

So my mom and I have navigated a lot around that.

Yeah.

I don't know if that answered your question, but that was kind of my journey into.

Yeah.

But, yeah, like I said, compared to some people, it was.

Yeah.

My parents were all very, like, as accepting as they could be.

I think that people don't necessarily realize just how harmful and painful the concept of, you know, love the sinner, hate.

The sin mentality of, like, that, you know, like you said, is rooted in the fact that they believe that sexuality is a choice and that you are choosing that.

And on the flip side, there is a certain.

There is a sect, I guess, of people who don't necessarily see it as a choice, but they still see that it needs to be something that you need to be celibate on.

That act on that is.

Is the sin.

But it's still like a dangerous line that we flirt between, like, you know, love disguised as hate sort of concept where, you know, you say you love me, but it comes with caveats and it comes with, you know, terms and conditions.

And we go, how.

How much of that is actually love?

And how much of it is you needing to fit.

Fit the mold, the good.

The good girl mold.

And so, yeah, I can.

I can totally relate to, you know, the initial feelings actually being jealousy.

Yeah.

But having absolutely no ability or no capacity to know what to do with any of those feelings.

And instead, yeah, it comes out as, like, disgust or hatred or, you know, something like that.

So was that period of time for you exploring your sexuality, was that liberating or were there times where you were like confused and, you know, was there still the panic around hell and displeasing God or anything like that?

The only thing that was confusing was that I didn't, I wasn't living in an area where there was a large queer community.

So my exploring was maybe like my friend with, like, we would drunkenly kiss at a party and it's fun for them, it's real for me.

And that kind of, I didn't really, I feel like I didn't really get to explore fully until my late teens, early 20s when dating apps became a thing and you could meet people of the same, you know, sexuality that didn't live near you.

There wasn't.

I, I.

The fear around going to hell and the fear around my sexuality, I, that wasn't an issue for me.

I feel like once I really embodied that and I also kind of re conditioned my relationship to God and also just had these like, light bulb moments where I felt like I could see things so clearly and I could see that these other people's truths weren't mine and that maybe like in my God was okay with that, you know.

So I think my, I still maintained a connection to something greater than me.

And I think I found a lot of comfort in that.

And I just saw other people's, the conditions that I was holding, the fear that I was holding is not mine.

So I think I felt pretty.

That transition out of that felt pretty easeful for me.

There was definitely like fear around being seen with a girl the first time and other people's judgments and, you know, just having to navigate society's homophobia.

Not even just the Christian or religious homophobia.

So that definitely came with his challenges.

I would say I was more challenged by how I felt about men, to be honest then, and confused about that to be honest, than I did with, you know, with women.

Yeah, it was way more confusing.

Yeah.

What was it like for you to start untangling some of the internalized messages that you did get as a child from the church in terms of, you know, that you need to be good and that striving for perfection and purity.

What was it like for you to detangle some of that?

Oh, the purity, the purity thing was, was such a big thing and redefining or re creating a new relationship with, with sex and pleasure and intimacy and touch, which is really at the core of what I do, like sensuality.

Like I was so uncomfortable in my body.

Like I might have been comfortable with my sexuality.

But being growing up in the church does not teach you how to Be comfortable in your body.

It does not teach you anything about how to be comfortable with pleasure and sexuality and sensuality and all those things.

We feel like our body belongs to another and it's not ours to inhabit.

We feel guilt around pleasure, feel guilt around being promiscuous or for not, you know, abiding to the rules.

And that was probably my biggest journey because even when I was out of the church and I was kind of even embodying my sexuality, I was so uncomfortable in my body, so uncomfortable being seen, so uncomfortable being touched, so disconnected from my pleasure, so disconnected from my erotic nature, my sensuality, my.

My.

What I would call womanhood or whatever, my period, even just all things that really make me me in my body, I was so severed from that.

And so it's definitely been a journey back to the body and a reclamation of innocence.

That I'm not guilty, that I'm innocent.

That my sex is innocence.

My pleasures, innocence.

My sensuality is innocent.

My sexuality is innocent and just a reclamation.

Yeah.

Of pleasure and all of those things that the church will sever you from and then have you feeling guilty for and then use as power over you.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So that, for me, has probably been the biggest detangling that needed to happen.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Purity culture has, like, really, like, fucked with so many people.

And I mean, it sucks for everybody, but it really sucks for women because you're, like you said, your body is not your own.

And not only are you, though, responsible for your own body, you're also responsible for the body of the men around you and the minds and the hearts of the men around you also.

So it's not just, yeah, about controlling your body, but it's about the guilt around, you know, your own body, your own own sexuality, but also that of everybody around you.

And, yeah, I think a lot of people think that purity culture is just about sex, but it's so much bigger than that.

It's like, you know, it's so much bigger.

And if, you know, purity culture is not just the reason that, you know, there is a huge disconnect from your body, you're not taught to trust it.

In fact, you are actively taught not to trust it.

That it is, you know, just a vessel to get you through this life.

Right.

And, you know, I.

You know, people will often talk about purity culture being synonymous with.

With rape culture and sexual assault culture.

I think it's also synonymous with diet culture and fat phobia and body image and all of those things.

What helped you come back to your body during that time.

I mean, firstly would definitely be the massage though.

Even in the first years of my career, I was very comfortable giving touch.

But I think that it was actually a way of me receiving connection and intimacy and touch without having to be on the receiving end because it didn't feel comfortable for me.

But I, I would say that it's definitely been massage and bodywork that opened a doorway for me to find my way back to myself, for me to learn about my body.

Even at first, just on a very physical level, learning so many things I didn't know, it just allowed me to be like, I didn't know that about you.

You, I didn't know that about.

It's pretty cool that you do like just actually getting to know the vessel and understanding it.

And at first it was very physical and then it became way more emotional and spiritual and energetic and I started to develop a relationship with it.

But I would say that the biggest turning point for me when it came to my relationship to my body was probably about nine years ago.

I was definitely.

Well, I grew up with just such terrible self esteem and body image and I just hated my body.

I hated looking at it, I hated touching it, I hated, I always thought I needed to lose weight, be skinny, whatever.

I will be happy when.

And my inner dialogue when it came to my body was so toxic and abusive.

And I went through this phase though about nine years ago where I was studying the effects of energy, positive and negative energy on water and how when a water is exposed to positive energy, it is the enhances the cellular structure of water and the health of the water.

When it's exposed to negative energy, it does the opposite, opposite.

And at first I was applying this to massage.

I was like, okay, if humans are like 60, 70 water.

What I'm thinking and feeling during a treatment is having a real impact on the water content, the cellular structure of the water.

And that's going to influence how they feel at the end of this session.

So my intention is everything.

And then I was like, oh my God, what if?

What are my own thoughts doing to me?

And while I was studying this, I saw this experience experiment that a guy named Dr.

Emoto did.

And he, he did this experiment on rice where he cooked rice and you know, as you know, water, rice absorbs water so it's a high water content.

And he put rice into one jar and that was like the positive jar, put rice into another jar was a negative jar.

And for 30 days students at his school would go up to it and just hold the jar and just feed it the most, like, disgusting, hateful, negative thoughts, like, not saying it out loud.

Just, like, imagine putting it in there.

And then to the love jar, they would just feed it with happy, loving, like, affirming.

And over the 30 days, the love jar stayed almost white, and then the hate jar was, like, black and moldy and disgusting.

And they've done the same, replicated the same experiment with, you know, fruit and plants and things.

So I did that experiment, and that was the most profound shift for me, because I saw over a month what my thoughts and feelings and emotions were doing to the rice or to the water.

And then I was like, I'm just killing myself.

Like, I am really hurting my body.

And at the time, I was really struggling with my health.

And I was like, it could even be with my health.

So I gave up dieting, I gave up exercising.

I gave up all of those things.

And all I focused on was creating a healthier state of mind.

And I just asked myself the question.

And I still ask myself the question, you know, if the relationship I'm having with my body was a relationship between two people, what sort of relationship would it be?

How do they speak together?

Like, do they spend quality time?

Are they okay being alone together?

Do you walk on eggshells?

Does any little thing set them off?

Do they criticize?

They put you down?

Do they shame you?

Do they, like, what is?

Or do you feel safe?

Do you feel loved?

Do you feel heard?

Do they make space for you, time for you?

Do they validate your feelings?

Do they hold you while you feel them?

You know, So I just started to look at my relationship to my body through the lens of a relationship between two people.

And I was like, this is the most abusive relationship I'll probably.

I've still ever been in, you know?

So from there, I just.

Just woke up the next day, and I just decided to pay closer attention to my thoughts.

And every time I would say something mean, I'd apologize and go, you don't deserve that.

And I'd replace it with something else.

And I did that for months and months and months.

I lost, like, 10 kilos.

My skin cleared up.

Like, the health issues that I had cleared up.

And there's so much more that came after that.

But that was, like.

That was the real defining moment in my journey back to the body and in relating with the body and reclaiming my body as mine.

And.

Yeah, yeah.

Was it hard?

Yeah.

So hard can still be hard, you know, but like, any relationship, you don't just fix it and Then it's fixed.

A relationship between two people is like, as you know, if you're in a relationship, it's like you choose that person every day.

Yeah.

And you choose to open to them and you choose to lean into them even when you want to run away.

And if you up or you've said some horrible stuff to them, you take responsibility, you take accountability, you apologize.

It's not about being perfect, but it is about, like, leaning back in, opening and apologizing and.

And choosing to heal together, grow together, and choosing to love, really.

You know, it's like that love is a choice.

It's not an easy choice always, but like any healthy relationship, it takes work and it takes conscious effort, not just deal with it when it implodes.

Which is what a lot of us do with our bodies, is we don't focus on it until we are sick, until we're unwell, until we're burnt out.

Yeah.

Just like with a relationship with a human, we don't focus on all the stuff we've swept under the rug until everything implodes.

So it's a skill.

And some days it's easy and some days it's hard.

But it's definitely now, I would say my state of mind, like, my mental.

The thoughts I don't ever like, my.

My thoughts are very positive, high quality.

Like, I might wake up and be like, oh, I feel like this, or like, oh, I really didn't honor my body with food this week, or movement.

And so I can feel those things.

But it's such at the foundation is love now, for sure.

And it sounds like it's more about reflection and awareness as opposed to just like contempt and criticism and insult and.

Yeah, I think that that imagery of like, you know, we talk about, you know, our relationship with our body, but I think the.

The concept for people who have, you know, grown up to disconnect from their body, you know, that imagery of, you know, of talking to your body and it being like, if your body was another person, you know, what would it say?

And, you know, those sorts of things I think can be a really helpful way for people who, you know, this is really unknown for them to be able to do that.

I often will say to clients, if you're only ever in recovery mode, you're never resting.

And that kind of reminds me of, you know, which is that we often only respond to our body when it's in pain or it's sick or it's at its wit's end, as opposed to, you know, on a daily Regular, consistent basis.

Yeah.

Well, I'm.

I'm curious because often people, when we talk about, you know, religious trauma or deconstruction or, you know, depending on what hashtag or keyword you want to use in that realm, people will often talk about the fact that.

Or you just.

You just left the church because you want to sin more, or you just left the church because you're angry and bitter at God or because you just want to do whatever you want.

And.

And so.

And there's also, I guess, like the assumption that everybody who is not at church is an atheist.

Right.

And.

But I know from the content that you produce that you are a deeply spiritual person.

And so I'm curious what the shift was like between that divine being, God and the divine being, whatever it is now for you.

Yeah.

So when I left the church, like 12.

Yeah, probably like 11 or 12.

I disconnected totally spiritually.

Like, I.

I didn't feel anything.

I didn't pray to anything.

I feel like I needed to sever my tie.

What happened though, too, is, like, with my hands, my gifts is what I wanted to do with my hands became purely physical.

I'm a remedial massage therapist.

I'll do sports massage, treat injuries, have my own clinic in Lethgo.

That was the dream.

Oh, my goodness.

I laugh because, like, I still, like.

I mean, I have family who live there, so we go back fairly regularly, but I think it's probably a town if I had a choice, I would not go back to.

No, yeah, I know, exactly.

So the fact that Lisco is in part of the dream, just super humorous to me.

Yeah, exactly.

So when I left school and I started studying massage, I was still very physical, but I had a couple of moments that really opened me back up.

And the first one was struggling to retain information for anatomy and physiology.

And I was walking around one day and I happened to go into a crystal shop.

And I don't know why I asked.

I was like, do you have anything that's good for memory?

And she.

I bought this necklace and it was like a clear quartz with a blue topaz.

And I started to wear it daily and placebo or not, I don't really know.

But my memory improved and I ended up doing really, really well.

So I think that crystals were my gateway in.

Because then the next experience that I had was working in a clinic and I worked alongside another practitioner who had a black tourmaline crystal on his desk.

And one day I was looking at it and I felt this urge to pick it up and listen to it.

And I did and I threw it because I heard like the loudest rainforest, like rainforest birds, like water.

And I.

It did something to me.

Like I was like, what is that?

So I started to get really curious about crystals.

And at the time I also started to work in a day spa or a resort where we were doing more like energy based treatments, crystal based treatments.

And I started to learn about the energetic body and the emotional body and the holistic aspect of the body and the connection that that has to the earth and to the sky.

And like it just started to open me up.

And then from there it was like, yeah, that, that connection that I had severed opened back up again.

But it was something that was completely new for me.

Like it was, it was very different.

And now that it has developed over time, I would say that like when I talk to my mum, we realize we have a lot of similar beliefs, but we have different language for it.

And really, I mean, essentially that's how I feel.

What I feel all religions are, is you're connecting to the same source, but you've interpreted it and you've translated it into your own language, into your own experience, into your own terms or whatever.

But really when you look at them, there's some very similar things that overlap and cross over.

So I think we all have been connecting to this higher power or this higher, you know, source, the universe, God, whatever you want to call it.

And we've just translated it in different ways and then use those translations for power and for all sorts of other things.

So, yeah, it was definitely massage and bodywork in my hands that were my way back into to my spiritual connection.

Crystals definitely were a point of access as well in the beginning.

And then when I really got on like my personal development journey and like around the rice experiment thing had a bit of a spiritual, I guess, awakening where I started to really feel that connection, sense that connection, commune with it, talk to it, you work with it.

When I'm working and just feeling part of something bigger but feeling that bigness within me as well, feeling like an extension of it, an expression of it.

So, yeah, I severed the connection and then it kind of opened and it has just continuously and continues to evolve.

Yeah, I have a friend who coined the phrase God is a woman and that woman is me.

And as you sort of said that like, you know, the, the divineness sort of beck being internal as well as, you know, external and ethereal.

But I, yeah, I love the.

I love when people talk about, actually there's so much shared, shared Experiences and so much shared belief, cross religion and spirituality.

I think that that's how we have empathy for one another.

Because, you know, I will often talk about any.

My own deconstruction.

I was like, at what point is energy?

At what point is prophecy, intuition?

And like, where does that line begin and end?

At what point is energy, the Holy Spirit?

At what point are crystals?

You know, the communion and the symbols and the crucifix and all of those things.

Symbols are symbols.

And so it's like, there is so many crossovers.

And, you know, irrespective of whether you use, you know, a divine figure or like a deity or you use, you know, the Abrahamic God, it's what you do with that, that.

That is, you know, the issue, you know, if somebody can use yoga for harm, somebody can use God for harm.

Right.

Like, and so I think being able to go, actually, there is so much shared here.

It's just the language that we're using and what we're doing with it allows us to have empathy for those who might actually be different from us, as opposed to, you know, constantly feeling as though we need to criticize or call out.

I mean, and, you know, we always call out harm.

But I think there is a way to do that with it being born from empathy.

Yeah.

I love.

I love the crystals of the gateway.

I feel it in, like, the gateway drug.

I feel like so many people.

Yeah, so many people.

Because it is, like, it's so ironic because the amount of very, very devout Christians who would have crystals in their home, just, like, the irony is super humorous to me because obviously, like, they're pretty city.

Right.

So it's like the.

It is.

It's like the gateway.

Yeah.

Not necessarily realizing, but.

Yeah.

I tend to finish these episodes with, I guess, like a word of encouragement or advice or thoughts around what you would say to somebody who is fresh in their deconstruction or they've just left church, they've just been hurt or something like that, what would you say to them who are in the initial stages of wrestling?

I would say, like.

And I'll kind of circle back to that in a second.

But something that you said kind of prompted this train of thought anyway, which was like this prophecy, intuition, you know, and it's one of the most important things when we're deconstructing this or breaking free from this or becoming who we're meant to be from.

This is the connection to body, because that's where the truth is.

Your truth there is not.

Like, for me, I don't believe there is one truth.

Yeah.

And like, I just think there's.

It's like it would be insane to say that there is just one truth.

I know it gives a lot of comfort to think that there is.

It helps with what we think.

It helps with fear and all of those things.

But there is only my truth and your truth.

And I can't tell you what's true for you.

But that's why that connection to the body is so important, because that is the inner compass for truth.

Often what happens when we leave religion, and I guess this is the piece of advice is we substitute, constitute one authority for another.

You see this a lot in the new age, like spiritual community and personal development.

Community is.

We're still outside of ourselves for answers.

We're still outside of ourselves for guidance.

And it's like a wolf in sheep's clothing sometimes thinking about this.

Before I got on the podcast of like, even me fearing sinning, and now it's like, I fear being out of alignment, otherwise I'll be punished or I won't manifest what I'm manifesting.

It's the same dogma just wrapped up in different language.

And I think this is why that, like self compassion and empathy and coming back to developing a relationship to your body, yourself, your sovereignty, your truth, creates a very solid foundation and compass to navigate the world and navigate deconstruction, navigate whatever could come up.

So I would.

My encouragement would be whatever you're doing is to also incorporate building a relationship to your body, because that is the center of everything for me.

You are perceiving and experiencing the world through your body, so your relationship with it will determine how you interpret your life and, and that with the relationship to your psyche and all of those things.

So like getting support from like a, you know, or someone like you, you know, who's specialized in this area as well.

Because I think that it's really hard to do alone.

And I think that when you're new on this journey, you don't have a lot of words for what you're going through.

And so having someone to speak to what you're experiencing is so healing, so supportive.

So get help, find community.

That is also where you're accepted, loved, understood, and make the relationship to your body and self a priority as opposed to substituting one dogma for another.

Because it can be really easy to do that.

Yeah, it's actually a super, super common experience is.

Yeah.

To just trade fun, you know, fundamentalism in one space to fundamentalism in another.

So I think that Yeah.

I think that that's so important for people to think and to realize because it leaves you susceptible when.

Yeah.

You're diverting that authority from inside to, you know, an external, irrespective of who that person or figure is.

Yeah.

So I love that.

Yeah.

I would just add because when you grow up feeling like you need to be saved, you'll always look for someone to save you.

And that might be Jesus, it might be the divine, masculine.

It might be a person, a partner, a man, a daddy, or whatever it's like.

And people can support you, but they're not going to save you.

And I think when we stop looking to be saved, we find a certain sort of power that no one wanted.

Us to have particular.

No one particular people didn't want us to have.

Yeah, I remember, I recorded.

I think it was with Sarah Haywood, who is in the US but she.

She was talking about the fact that, like, you're taught not to question when you're in the church.

And we, we joked in that moment that we're probably proving them why as, like, as to why.

Why they don't encourage that.

But yeah, I think.

Yeah, there is.

There is just that in.

It's a default system that needs rewiring, that, you know, you don't need saving or redeeming.

Yeah.

So, yeah.

Thank you.

Thank you.

It's been wonderful.

I love chatting and I love the work that you do, which I know that you know that, but I think, you know, having people out there who understand what that disconnect looks like, not just from a logical theoretical level, but what that disconnect looks like on, like a I've lived it kind of level is.

Is what that lived experience is.

It brings the added extra.

So I love that.

Thank you.

Appreciate it.

Thanks, Z.

Thanks for tuning in to this episode of beyond the Surface.

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Until next time, keep exploring, keep questioning, and keep moving forward.

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