As Erin works on an upcoming story about FLOCK cameras — aka Automated License Plate Readers — they and Val talked about all things FLOCK-related. These aren’t the red-light or speeding cameras that issue tickets, these are recording and logging vehicles throughout Spokane County at all times. From the costs to the concerns, these cameras are causing worry in local advocates about surveillance by both ICE and local law enforcement.

Further reading:



• FLOCK camera map – https://deflock.me/
• 404 Media’s FLOCK coverage – https://www.404media.co/tag/flock/

Hey guys, podcast producer Pascal

here with Aaron working on an

2

upcoming story about flock cameras

or automated license plate readers.

3

They and Val talked about all things

flock related from the cost to the

4

concerns These cameras have local

advocates worried about surveillance

5

by both ICE and local law enforcement.

6

One thing that was mentioned

was the website de flock.

7

Do me.

8

This site maps flock cameras across

the US and worldwide, and as I'm

9

recording this intro, this website

lists over 30 cameras in Spokane County.

10

It's honestly pretty interesting and

if you wanted to look at the website

11

yourself, you can find it@deflock.me.

12

That's D-E-F-L-O-C k.me.

13

This week's episode title may

or may not be a song reference.

14

Anyways, here's the episode.

15

I'm Aaron, that's Val, and today

we'll be doing a bit of a preview

16

on an upcoming story of mine.

17

Have you heard of flock cameras?

18

If you read our Monday civic section,

you might have mentioned here and there

19

as something the city or the county

is planning on spending money on.

20

You may think of them as just

traffic cameras, or you might have

21

them mixed up with the red light

cameras that issue you tickets.

22

But local advocates are nervous

about these flock cameras.

23

They're nervous about just how much

they're used as surveillance methods,

24

where they're placed, the sheer

amount of them and what they do.

25

So Val and I are gonna do well.

26

I'm gonna do a little primer for

Valerie on flock cameras and what you

27

need to know to understand this issue.

28

Wait.

29

Okay.

30

So real quick, um, going back to confusing

them with red light cameras, um, I

31

definitely thought they were red light

cameras, or I thought flock cameras

32

were the same as red light cameras.

33

So can you tell me what the difference is?

34

Yes.

35

So the cameras that I think most

people, especially if you live in city

36

limits, are most familiar with are

the red light or speed cameras mm-hmm.

37

That are placed at dangerous intersections

or intersections that are near schools.

38

Across the city, you might have gotten

a $300 ticket and a photo of you

39

driving too fast in a school zone.

40

That's a really specific example.

41

Yeah.

42

Yeah.

43

In my defense, I thought

school wasn't in session.

44

Okay.

45

I was like, it was like, you know,

August, September, I thought school

46

hadn't like started back up yet, but

it had, I paid my ticket that went

47

into the Safe Streets fund, hopefully.

48

Yay.

49

And hopefully they spent my, uh, my

owning up to my mistake, money on

50

making streets safer across the city.

51

But I feel like those are the

cameras that most people know about.

52

Mm-hmm.

53

It's the cameras that we've

written about the most in civics.

54

Mm-hmm.

55

Um, I usually do a little update on just

how much money the city has made off of

56

them, or how many tickets they've issued.

57

Flock cameras, no pun intended, fly

under the radar a little bit more.

58

And the difference is that the tickets

that you're familiar with are triggered.

59

So they take a photo when you

trigger the radar gun that tells

60

you that it's going too fast.

61

Or when you trigger the motion sensor that

says that you've like, run a red light,

62

they snap the photo, that photo ends up

in your ticket in the mail as evidence.

63

Mm-hmm.

64

For you breaking the law.

65

Flock cameras, they are

a little bit different.

66

And Flock is a specific kind

of, it's a brand of software.

67

Okay.

68

So like the difference between a flock

camera and like an Axon camera or

69

like a Motorola camera is gonna be the

difference between an iPhone and Samsung.

70

Okay.

71

They do the same thing.

72

It's a different brand.

73

What we're really talking about

here are A LPR cameras, automated

74

license plate reader cameras.

75

Okay.

76

And those are not red

light or speed cameras?

77

No, they go Interesting.

78

They go, um, they're just placed

on poles around the county and.

79

Whether you're breaking the law or not.

80

Mm-hmm.

81

They snap a pic of your license plate.

82

Hmm.

83

They take, uh, imaging, I think, I

don't know if it's a picture or a video,

84

but they do imaging that basically

collates every license plate number

85

that has driven past that camera.

86

And it's not just the license

plate number that they're taking.

87

They also take information on the make

model and color of the car associated

88

with that license plate number.

89

That's all.

90

Put into a big database.

91

Mm-hmm.

92

So these cameras, I guess the

key difference, what I'm trying

93

to say as I ramble is that the

red light and speed cameras are

94

triggered by a breach of the law.

95

They snap a picture when

you, that makes sense.

96

Go too fast or you run a red light.

97

Mm-hmm.

98

Um, flock cameras are taking

pictures constantly of every single

99

vehicle that drives past them.

100

Logging that information in a

database that then law enforcement

101

officers can access to solve

crimes is the stated purpose.

102

Got it.

103

That feels a smidgen Big brother,

but I will reserve judgment.

104

Um, okay.

105

So those are flock cameras are A LPR

cameras and flock is the software

106

that most of the jurisdictions in

our region have contracts with.

107

Okay.

108

Gotcha.

109

Um, okay.

110

So why, I guess, why do we have them?

111

What are the pros?

112

Yeah.

113

The biggest pros that I

see a lot are that they.

114

Help police solve crimes.

115

Mm-hmm.

116

So let's say that your car gets stolen.

117

Mm-hmm.

118

Right?

119

My car has gotten stolen.

120

Uh, let's say my car got stolen and

the police are looking for that car.

121

Mm-hmm.

122

They obviously are not that interested,

nor do they have the time to be

123

driving up and down every street in

Spokane looking for a stolen car.

124

Right.

125

With flock cameras.

126

If my car had been driven past one

of those cameras, it would have

127

flagged, like it would've taken

a picture of the license plate.

128

Would the, I guess, would the

Flock database have known that they

129

were looking, that it was stolen?

130

Possibly.

131

Okay.

132

There's a feature within

the flock software mm-hmm.

133

Where you can do what's

called creating a hot list.

134

Okay.

135

Um, and a hot list is a list of license

plate numbers that will like send

136

a notification if they get spotted.

137

Okay.

138

Um.

139

In Spokane County, they say

that they're using these flock

140

cameras to solve major crimes.

141

I have approximately 47 tabs open on

my computer right now 'cause this has

142

been a beast of a project to research.

143

Um, but they have a transparency portal

for the Spokane County flock cameras and

144

there's some prohibited uses for them.

145

Uh, but the primary uses that they say

they do them for is retroactive search

146

to solve crimes after they've occurred.

147

Mm-hmm.

148

Uh, they also utilize real time

alerting of hotlist vehicles

149

to capture wanted criminals.

150

So.

151

They set the bar a little bit higher.

152

I know in some of the training

materials I've seen, it has to be

153

kind of a serious crime mm-hmm.

154

For them to want to use the flock cameras.

155

So a stolen carb might not rise to that

level, but if there was like an amber

156

alert out okay, and a car was associated

with a suspected kidnapping, they could

157

potentially put that car's, make model

color, license plate number in a hot

158

list, and then if that car drove past

any of the county's flock cameras mm-hmm.

159

Or potentially any.

160

Flock a camera in the

national database mm-hmm.

161

That the county has a data

sharing agreement with.

162

Then detectives could get a

notification that's like, Hey,

163

this car that you were looking for

just drove past this intersection.

164

This was the most recent

info we have on it.

165

And that would help them hypothetically

narrow their search down.

166

It could also be used for evidence.

167

So let's say a crime is committed

at a certain location and they

168

have a couple of suspects.

169

They could look through flock data

to see if any of those suspect's cars

170

had driven near the site of the crime.

171

If there was cameras that were near it.

172

Okay.

173

That's the biggest pros is that it's a

tool in law enforcement's toolbox for

174

solving potentially serious crimes.

175

Mm-hmm.

176

Potentially ongoing crimes.

177

If there's like a kidnapping or

a robbery and they have a getaway

178

vehicle's number, they can be like,

oh, it drove past this intersection.

179

So alert all officers to go search

that area instead of, uh, casting

180

a wide net across the city.

181

Does that make sense?

182

Yeah, and I mean, I guess you

mentioned earlier that you know,

183

it, there's some parameters, like

it has to be a serious enough crime.

184

So like how, I guess, how often have

these cameras been used to solve

185

a major crime As far as we know?

186

That's a good question.

187

So there's some debate about this.

188

Mm-hmm.

189

Um, one of these tabs has the

Spokane County case study.

190

So Spokane County has what's called a

real time crime center, um, where they

191

have not just this technology, but lots

of other police tech that they use to

192

respond to serious crimes, um, like theft,

burglary, drive-by shootings, murder.

193

Et cetera.

194

Mm-hmm.

195

They have this graphic of total

success stories of times that a real

196

time crime center, tech or staff has

successfully resolved an incident.

197

So we don't know if this was

specifically flock cameras or a

198

different tool that they have.

199

We know that they have, uh, arrested 150

people or charged with a crime 150 people.

200

Uh, as a result of tech.

201

They have recovered 88 stolen vehicles.

202

Um, they have identified

suspect vehicles 42 times.

203

They've located nine

missing people as a result.

204

This is just with tech in general.

205

Tech in general from the

real time crime center.

206

And this was as of June

207

Up to date, um, stats I could find.

208

And are these stats like all

time or are they just for like

209

a span of a year or something?

210

I think, uh, the real time crime center.

211

I'm really working off of some faulty,

like reading a bunch of articles.

212

Mm-hmm.

213

I wanna say it came online

in like 20 20, 20 21.

214

Okay.

215

So it's like a couple

years worth of stats.

216

Um, got it.

217

Okay.

218

Actually it was fully launched by 2023.

219

Okay.

220

So this was one year's worth of stats.

221

Um, sorry, I, again, I have yeah,

222

right now that I'm like toggling

between for this research.

223

So like there are some mm-hmm.

224

Some real benefits to it.

225

Do we have an idea of like a

percentage of crimes that are

226

solved using flock cameras yet?

227

Like I would assume the percentage of

crimes would be really small because

228

there's a lot of crimes committed and

they're saying that they only solved like

229

150 crimes in one year as a result of all

of the tech in the real time crime center.

230

I wish I was better at on the fly

math because, no, that's cool.

231

I could tell you how many, the

county has more than 60 active

232

flock cameras as of right now.

233

As of right now.

234

Okay.

235

I don't have an exact number, um,

but I know that they have more than

236

60 or at least, so the county has

not been incredibly forthcoming with

237

me when it comes to information.

238

I submitted a public records request

asking for the location of all

239

of their flock cameras, and they

sent me a list of like 30 cameras

240

and their intersections, however.

241

I am insane.

242

And so I went through all of their, uh,

flock any time that flock was mentioned

243

in their board of County commission

agendas, and I found all of the contracts

244

that they'd approved with flock.

245

Oh, wow.

246

So.

247

That combined with reporting from

a couple of other outlets that say

248

they have more than 50 cameras.

249

Mm-hmm.

250

Um, I was able to find like 59

intersections that they say they have

251

cameras at according to contracts.

252

And then they also have

a few mobile cameras.

253

So they have two cameras on wheels,

which are essentially outfitted sheriff's

254

cars that are just like parked and left.

255

Oh yeah.

256

I see those like outside

the courthouse all the time.

257

Yeah.

258

Um, not all of the cars that you see

are actually outfitted with cameras.

259

Sometimes they just place old

decommissioned cars to make you

260

think they're like checking speed.

261

Or sometimes they might have a

speed radar, but they have at least

262

two flock cameras that are mobile

and then they have six radar flock

263

trailers that can be placed anywhere.

264

Okay.

265

At least according to.

266

The, um, Spokane County Sheriff's

Officer's training materials when

267

they started implementing flock that

I was able to public records request.

268

Do you know when they

started implementing flock?

269

Yes, I do.

270

Well, I have contract dates.

271

Okay.

272

I don't know exactly when the

installation was finished.

273

Mm-hmm.

274

But Spokane County installed

their first batch of cameras in

275

2022, or, um, the first batch

276

Okay.

277

And then a second batch of cameras

278

So this year, and I don't know if all of

those cameras have been installed yet,

279

but I do know they've all been approved.

280

They all have road intersections

that they're headed towards, so there

281

could be as many as 60 cameras, um,

out and about in the county so far.

282

Interesting.

283

And have you asked, um, like the county,

like why their list was almost half.

284

Gone?

285

No, not yet.

286

I, so I've been calling the county

Sheriff's, PIO I've called once,

287

Aaron Hedges called once or twice

and I haven't heard back yet, which

288

is kind of par for the course.

289

I don't know that Mark Gregory

has ever responded to me.

290

So there's that.

291

Mark, if you're listening, you can call

me back and you can tell me about flock.

292

I'm really nice.

293

I swear.

294

Uh, I just saw like double

horns sprout out of your head.

295

No, I'm nice.

296

I just wanna know where

the flock cameras are.

297

No, Erin is very nice, I promise.

298

Um, so that's, that's kind

of been my fascination.

299

And those are just the county

affiliated flock cameras.

300

Oh, okay.

301

Um, Liberty Lake has 19 cameras

installed and thank you.

302

Liberty Lake.

303

I just got, uh, a.

304

A list back from them.

305

Mark, if you are listening, you

could also get a shout out for

306

answering with the flock information.

307

Um, and Cheney is slated to

install, uh, I think 12 cameras.

308

Mm-hmm.

309

Those have not been installed yet,

but they have picked the locations

310

for where those cameras are going.

311

And Airway Heights has, oh wait.

312

Cheney has eight cameras installed.

313

Airway Heights is getting 12 cameras.

314

Okay.

315

Um.

316

And I don't know where those are going

yet 'cause I haven't heard back from them.

317

Does Spokane City have any?

318

So this is where I ran into

a little wrinkle mm-hmm.

319

In my reporting.

320

Um, back in February, Spokane City

Council approved a contract with

321

Flock that would put, would this be

for the first time that you know of?

322

That I know of, and I could be wrong

and please call me if I'm wrong

323

and you can tell me if I'm wrong.

324

Um, but I do know that the Spokane

City Council, uh, approved a

325

contract with flock that would

put 30 flock flock cameras.

326

Mm-hmm.

327

In city limits.

328

So right now actually the Spokane

County cameras, the permanently

329

installed ones, none of those

are on city or state roadways.

330

Oh, interesting.

331

I wanna say interesting.

332

Um.

333

The state thing I'm not so sure about.

334

I saw that in the county training

materials, but when I look at the

335

map, I'm like, I think that's a

state roadway, but it's kind of

336

honestly hard to tell sometimes.

337

Who's responsible for

maintaining what roadway?

338

Uh, and then there are three privately

owned flock cameras in the county.

339

Who are they owned by?

340

Lowe's.

341

Oh.

342

Every Lowe's in the county has a

flock camera in their parking lot.

343

Is that those like trailer thingies

that are like really tall up usually?

344

Or are these like, 'cause I've seen a

like trailer with a camera on it that

345

like beeps in a Safeway parking lot.

346

Those I think are gunshot

detection cameras.

347

Oh, there's, or at least,

sorry, don't quote me on that.

348

Yeah, as far as I know, those are not

tied into the county flock network.

349

Okay.

350

Um.

351

Maybe they got an off brand one.

352

Yeah.

353

Again, A LPR, uh, automated License plate

Reader Tech is not exclusive to flock.

354

So there could be contracts

with other A LPR readers.

355

It's just Flock is the one that's kind

of been making headlines most recently.

356

Mm-hmm.

357

And is sort of has a monopoly on

this tech or a growing monopoly?

358

Yeah.

359

I mean, usually what happens with

like police technology, you know,

360

they're always kind of monopolies.

361

It's like, like Axon.

362

Yeah.

363

Like if your agent, if one agency in a

region uses one brand, you know, then

364

all of the other agencies kind of tend

to use that other brand, that brand

365

because you know, it makes collaborating.

366

Yeah.

367

Or swapping information easier.

368

Oh, sorry.

369

Mm-hmm.

370

I never answered your question about C.

371

Mm-hmm.

372

So.

373

The wrinkle is that I reached

out to the city mm-hmm.

374

Police Department's, PIO, Dan Strasberg.

375

Mm-hmm.

376

And he got back to me, I was

like, Hey, do you have access

377

to the county's flock network?

378

And is the city planning on getting

their own flock network slash cameras?

379

And he said the city did not have a

plan to get their own flock network.

380

So what?

381

I don't know for sure, but they

signed a contract in February.

382

What I'm trying to figure out is, is that

contract from February not going anywhere?

383

Mm.

384

Because there have been times before

when council has allocated Monday

385

money to be spent on a contract.

386

Mm.

387

And then it just like doesn't get spent.

388

Um, are they going to be buying those

cameras and then those cameras are getting

389

tied into the county flock network?

390

Mm-hmm.

391

So in that case, the city wouldn't

be standing up their own network.

392

They would just be

participating in the counties.

393

Um.

394

I sent a follow up email, haven't

heard back yet, but I'd be curious.

395

I'm trying to get clarification on that.

396

I probably need to start harassing the

city council too, to be like, mm-hmm.

397

You executed this contract back in

February, what's going on with that?

398

Yeah.

399

I'd be curious if like the police chief

has anything to do with that decision

400

too, because he was just coming on.

401

Mm-hmm.

402

And he's like, you know, a little bit

less, uh, I don't know how to describe it.

403

Like less, he might be less interested.

404

Yes.

405

There we go.

406

In the surveillance state.

407

Yeah.

408

It's hard to say.

409

He might be, I don't know.

410

Um.

411

Okay, so sorry I threw

a ton of information.

412

No, that's okay.

413

So I hope this is somewhat interesting.

414

This is, I've been so mired in flock.

415

I'm interested in this.

416

Um, okay.

417

So do we know if like the state, like

Highway Patrol is installing these?

418

We do not as of yet.

419

Um, I did get a public records

request back from Liberty

420

Lake, so a little primer here.

421

Mm-hmm.

422

There's, you've heard

me say Flock Network.

423

Mm-hmm.

424

Spokane County has

their own flock network.

425

Okay.

426

Their cameras are tied to that network.

427

Spokane County can access that

information if anybody in the

428

county has a login to that.

429

Mm-hmm.

430

Other, uh, law enforcement JU

jurisdictions have their own network.

431

Mm-hmm.

432

Um.

433

And the, it's like a subscription service.

434

Yeah.

435

So they opt into a certain, or pay for a

certain level of the subscription service.

436

Spokane County pays for what's called

Flock os, and some of the features

437

that they get in that subscription

is that they can access statewide and

438

national data from other flock systems.

439

Okay.

440

So let's say Seattle Police Department

had a flock system and a suspect

441

from Spokane fled to Seattle.

442

Mm-hmm.

443

If Seattle was opted into statewide

data sharing, um, if that car was

444

picked up on their network, Spokane

City or Spokane Sheriff's Office would

445

get a ping if it showed up there.

446

However, not every department is

opted in to share their own data.

447

They have the automatic ability

to search other people's data.

448

Mm-hmm.

449

For those jurisdictions that

have been like, yes, mm-hmm.

450

Opt us in, let other

people search our data.

451

But that doesn't mean that our data

is necessarily opted into that.

452

Okay.

453

And I'm waiting on a public records

request or a call from Mark Gregory to

454

confirm whether or not Spokane County

Sheriff's Office has opted into state

455

or national, national data sharing.

456

Okay.

457

Who would make that decision?

458

Do you know?

459

Probably the sheriff.

460

Um, yeah, because I was reading

the contracts that the Board of

461

County Commissioners approved.

462

Mm-hmm.

463

And they approved the level of

subscription that would allow that.

464

Mm-hmm.

465

But there was nothing in the contract that

said specifically whether or not Spokane

466

County was going to opt into data sharing.

467

Just that they had the ability

to access other people's data

468

who had opted into sharing.

469

Okay.

470

So.

471

I guess, where's the

funding to pay for this?

472

Usually coming from the funding,

at least at the city level that was

473

allocated was from a grant from Okay.

474

The state, I think.

475

Um, so like the, but in general, I

think the money for this kind of tech

476

comes out of police departments budgets.

477

Okay.

478

I'm curious then specifically about

the contract for Spokane City is like,

479

if the police department is just like,

no, we're not gonna, if they're not

480

spending it, where's that money going?

481

This wouldn't be the first time.

482

One of the weirdest things that

I was trying to get abreast of

483

when I first started mm-hmm.

484

Was this debate over two cameras that

the county or that the city had approved,

485

and then the, the police department just

didn't buy those cameras, even though

486

the $50,000 had been allocated for them.

487

And then people were like.

488

Okay, well, where did the money go?

489

Mm-hmm.

490

And why didn't you buy the cameras?

491

If you asked us to buy the cameras

and then we said, sure, here's

492

the money to buy the cameras.

493

Uh, and then you just didn't buy

them, so it's, it wouldn't be, yeah.

494

Do you know where that money

actually ended up going or, oh God.

495

It's been like a year since

I last touched base on that.

496

I just remember that debate happening.

497

Yeah.

498

So it wouldn't be the first

time that money had been

499

allocated and then not spent.

500

Um, how much are these cameras usually?

501

I know that Chaney's contract

is for $52,000, I think.

502

Okay.

503

Um, the county's contract is

like 750 K, but that's like a

504

four year contract, I think.

505

Okay, I see.

506

Um, and that pays for

the physical cameras?

507

Mm-hmm.

508

All of your software?

509

Some like, I think it pays

for like tech checkups.

510

Like, oh, if something breaks,

they'll like, come fix it.

511

Um, the, the contract language is

pretty dense, but I have a folder

512

on my laptop of all of the different

contracts in our, in our region.

513

Fun.

514

Okay.

515

So, um, I, I had confused

flaw, like I had confused A LPR

516

cameras with red light cameras.

517

And so one of my questions I had

written down is, how much money

518

do these generate for the city?

519

Is there none?

520

Yeah, none.

521

Well.

522

I mean, if the city seized

found property Oh yeah.

523

Through the camera usage that they

were then able to seize through

524

asset forfeiture and auction off.

525

I guess they could kind of help make

money, but like yeah, that would

526

be a really roundabout process.

527

Yeah.

528

Um, so, um, I guess what

are the biggest cons?

529

Yeah.

530

Well it sounds like there's a lot,

there are cons of flock in general.

531

Mm-hmm.

532

What I've been trying to figure out

and what I still don't necessarily

533

have answers for, so I don't

wanna freak anybody out mm-hmm.

534

Preemptively is how big those

cons are in Spokane County.

535

'cause there's certain precautions

that individual jurisdictions can

536

take to limit these cons, however.

537

Mm-hmm.

538

In the big one right now,

that's kind of hot topic mm-hmm.

539

Is immigration.

540

Okay.

541

So these flock cameras pick up license

plates from across the country.

542

And like I was getting a little

jargony about with the nationwide

543

lookup, there are jurisdictions

across the nation mm-hmm.

544

That have these cameras.

545

There's like, I mean, even just

looking at the list of jurisdictions

546

in Washington that have flock

cameras, it's like a hundred.

547

Um, wow.

548

So and so jurisdictions count like cities,

like city, counties, counties, states.

549

Yeah.

550

Um, there's so many

places have these cameras.

551

Yeah.

552

So many of these places, cameras,

just Lowe's counts, collect this data.

553

I'm not even factoring Lowe's

into this, who was like, does

554

Lowe's count as just jurisdiction?

555

No, but Lowe's, uh, and Home

Depots across the country Yeah.

556

Are widely known for putting flock

cameras in their parking lot.

557

Mm-hmm.

558

So there's like all of these

cameras collecting data.

559

Mm-hmm.

560

And many of these.

561

Jurisdictions are opted into

national sharing, which means.

562

Any jurisdiction in the country mm-hmm.

563

That pays for this subscription can search

all of this data for license plates.

564

Mm-hmm.

565

For, for hits on these license plates

for like, where did this person end up?

566

Have I seen their car anywhere?

567

They can put in like a, the info

that they have and it'll pop

568

up, hits all over the country.

569

Okay.

570

It's a little scary.

571

Mm-hmm.

572

People are worried about this tech being

used for immigration enforcement purposes.

573

Mm-hmm.

574

And it in fact, already has been.

575

So there have been places that

have given ICE officers logins.

576

To their, um, network, which then allows

them to make searches to find this.

577

Mm.

578

There have been cases, I wanna say it

was in Oregon of ICE officers who had a

579

close connection with a police officer who

was like, Hey, can you search for this?

580

And then hit me back with the info.

581

So like a back doorway?

582

Oh, into search info.

583

Um, sorry, that was in Oregon.

584

I think it was in Oregon.

585

Okay.

586

But please don't quote me on that.

587

I remember it was somewhere

somewhat close to here.

588

Okay.

589

Um, and when you make a search,

you have to give a reason.

590

Mm-hmm.

591

But, and like each jurisdiction

has policies like Spokane, uh,

592

county, you're not allowed to use

immigration as the reason to search.

593

Mm-hmm.

594

But the like, auditing and enforcement

of this tech is pretty lax.

595

Mm.

596

So you might be wanting to make a search

for an immigration enforcement reason, but

597

you could just put violent crime suspect.

598

And I don't know that there's anybody

who's regularly going through these

599

searches being like, oh, you searched

for this under violent crime suspect.

600

This person wasn't suspected

of a violent crime.

601

Why did you put this in

as your keyword search do?

602

Um, that's interesting.

603

So like.

604

I guess, where does that rule come from

then that you have to have a reason?

605

Is it like a law or is it

just like a policy from flock?

606

That's just the flock tech.

607

Okay.

608

When you make a search, you have

to put in like your reason why that

609

seems, and some places have put

in like immigration enforcement.

610

Okay.

611

There have been like 4 0 4 media

has done a really good job mm-hmm.

612

Of putting in public records requests

at a bunch of different jurisdictions

613

and it'll pop up results of mm-hmm.

614

Searches that were made with

immigration enforcement or ICE or,

615

uh, federal immigration warrant.

616

Mm-hmm.

617

Or ice warrant given as the reason

for the search and those pop up.

618

But what doesn't pop up is like searches.

619

They're like, oh, violent crime suspect.

620

Where you were maybe lying

about the reason right.

621

That you were searching.

622

And these cameras have been used for

some relatively nefarious purposes.

623

Yeah.

624

There was a case of a police officer

who, um, was domestically abusing

625

his partner, and when she left him,

he was using flock cameras to track

626

her movements all over the city.

627

She's little, he was just like

constantly looking up his ex's car.

628

Um, there was, I don't remember

what the city was, but there was

629

Did he get in trouble for that?

630

Yeah, I mean, it made news.

631

I think he, I don't know exactly what

the, the penalty was, but, um, there was

632

a city where, uh, there was some sort

of racial profiling, like the cameras

633

were being used to do racial profiling.

634

Um, we've seen in some cities where

flock cameras are like overwhelmingly

635

placed in poor or mm-hmm.

636

Bipoc areas of a city.

637

So like over surveillance

of marginalized communities.

638

Um.

639

So there's just like a lot of

potential for misuse mm-hmm.

640

Of this tech.

641

Uh, the most famous case that actually

kind of caught my attention and is why,

642

uh, I started looking at this locally.

643

Mm-hmm.

644

Um, that, and the fact that our

urbanism column to s Lauren Pangborn was

645

like, I'm really interested in flock.

646

We should work on this.

647

Uh, was a case out of Texas where a police

officer was looking for a woman who had

648

left the state to seek reproductive care.

649

He says it was because she was missing,

or like, said that there was like

650

family concern about it, but the search

field reason he gave was like abortion.

651

Oh.

652

Um, and he was searching cameras all

over the country for this woman's plates.

653

And in fact, some of the cameras that.

654

Popped up results or that he was

searching from were cameras in Washington.

655

We don't know if any Spokane cameras

were utilized in this search, but in

656

the article 4 0 4 said that there was

specifically Washington cameras mm-hmm.

657

That were used, which is

particularly concerning.

658

Mm-hmm.

659

Because Washington is a sanctuary

jurisdiction for people seeking

660

reproductive healthcare and immigration.

661

Mm-hmm.

662

So it's kind of scary to know that

like if you come from a red state to

663

seek reproductive healthcare here,

a police officer from Idaho might be

664

able to search Washington's cameras.

665

Mm-hmm.

666

And when you come back to the state,

hold you accountable or like prosecute

667

you for seeking reproductive healthcare

and be like, your car pinged near an

668

abortion center in Washington, here's

this as evidence that is really scary.

669

Mm-hmm.

670

Like, yeah.

671

'cause and that bumps up into like kind of

the, the question of the whole, like the.

672

Story, I guess is like,

um, like what do we,

673

wait, sorry.

674

Um, so one thing I've noticed in

your story, um, that kind of goes

675

into like any police officer can like

search the database, is that warrants

676

are not required for these searches.

677

And we kind of touched on it.

678

Is that just why that's

Oh, that's a good question.

679

I'm not a crime reporter necessarily.

680

Mm-hmm.

681

So I don't know if I can give a

concrete answer as to why warrants

682

would not be required, but it's

just like, in the same way that.

683

Tech companies can decide

how much of your mm-hmm.

684

Like you, nobody reads

the terms and services.

685

Right.

686

Right.

687

Yeah.

688

So if you use Facebook mm-hmm.

689

There might be something in the

terms and services that says, like,

690

if you're suspected of this, we can

turn your data over to the police.

691

Mm-hmm.

692

They might have something in

there that says they can give

693

it for free without a warrant.

694

Mm-hmm.

695

There's, they definitely use your

data to do advertising stuff mm-hmm.

696

Without your necessarily explicit consent.

697

Um, and so I think it's just

emblematic of the way that big tech

698

companies have moved faster mm-hmm.

699

Than the law.

700

Um.

701

This tech popped up before any kind

of regulation over whether or not they

702

would need a warrant to search, flock.

703

And the pervasive argument from

law enforcement has been, we

704

need this to solve ongoing cases.

705

Mm-hmm.

706

We need this to know, like if your

kid gets kidnapped right now mm-hmm.

707

I can search this database and

find out that the kidnapper

708

showed up here 10 minutes ago.

709

That's the like argument for this tech.

710

And so in that scenario, having

to get a warrant would make

711

it so much less effective.

712

Mm-hmm.

713

And I'm not arguing for against us.

714

I'm just saying this, this

is the argument for it.

715

Yeah.

716

And then also they're just like.

717

There states haven't regulated this

in a way that moves with the times I,

718

I know a lot of states or a couple of

states now are looking at regulation

719

that would prohibit, uh, like sanctuary

cities or sanctuary states from opting

720

their data into national lookups.

721

Mm-hmm.

722

So in that way, you know, if

Washington wanted to do this,

723

wanted to pass regulation that says,

okay, if you are a law enforcement

724

agency in Washington mm-hmm.

725

You can't opt your data

into the national search.

726

That might be a way to help limit

Washington data being used for

727

federal immigration enforcement when

we have the Keep Washington Working

728

Act, which is that no state or

city resources should be used for.

729

Mm-hmm.

730

Immigration enforcement and it

would be state and city resources.

731

'cause it's the state and city paying

for this tech and these contracts.

732

Um, and then flock itself potentially

to avoid liability, has pulled a couple

733

of states out of the national lookup.

734

Oh right.

735

Like California, I think

California was pulled out.

736

There was like three other ones, uh,

that all have sanctuary state policies.

737

So it's really unclear to

me why Washington wasn't

738

pulled out at the same time.

739

Um, I don't know if there, if it's because

of ongoing legislation in California.

740

Mm-hmm.

741

Or if there's something in the

way that Washington State law is

742

written that makes it less risky

for flock to operate that way here.

743

Um, or if there just haven't been like,

complaints about Washington's data.

744

Wild.

745

So I have a lot of questions

that I don't have answered.

746

Sorry.

747

I can't make a ton of

definitive statements.

748

Totally.

749

'cause this whole thing

is so big and complex.

750

Mm-hmm.

751

And nobody is as transparent with

their data as I want them to be.

752

Totally.

753

Ken.

754

Um, so are these searches, do you

know if they're limited to just law

755

enforcement or is it something that

like you can public records request?

756

Great question.

757

You can.

758

Public records request flock searches.

759

That's how 4 0 4 media has done.

760

A ton of their reporting

is, um, keyword searching.

761

However, and this is where it gets tricky.

762

In Spokane County, the flock data is

only maintained or they say it's only

763

maintained on the database for 30 days.

764

Okay.

765

That's what they say.

766

Interesting.

767

Um.

768

So by the time you put in a public

record request and it's processed and

769

you give a date range that's like X

date to X date, all of those searches

770

might be gone or all of the license

plate, I don't know, like search

771

history might last longer than 30 days.

772

Okay.

773

But like license plate

info is limited mm-hmm.

774

To 30 days.

775

So like what you can request is more

so what searches have police officers

776

made and less so like what cars

passed this camera on Division Street.

777

Um, which is probably a good thing.

778

I don't know if we would want the

public to be able to know which cars

779

drive by this, uh, camera on the daily.

780

Mm-hmm.

781

Um, so it is public records requestable,

but in general, like the only people

782

that have easy and quick access to it

are law enforcement officers, however.

783

Mm-hmm.

784

And this is where it gets funky.

785

Um.

786

I, one of my public records requests

was for a list of authorized users

787

of the Spokane County Flock Network.

788

Mm-hmm.

789

So those are people who have been given

a login to log into their network.

790

They can search everything

on that network.

791

They can make national searches.

792

Mm-hmm.

793

They can make statewide searches.

794

Um, a lot of, most of the

people on that list were Spokane

795

County Sheriff's Officers.

796

Mm-hmm.

797

But there were also people who were

like, maybe dispatchers, there was people

798

with like Shrek emails, like Spokane

Regional Emergency Communication emails.

799

Um, and there were folks from

other jurisdictions besides ours.

800

Hmm.

801

So they let, like the Chiney

police have a login to their.

802

Um mm-hmm.

803

Flock network.

804

And that makes sense.

805

They let post falls police have

a login and Coe d'Alene police.

806

Mm-hmm.

807

And that should flag alarm bells for you.

808

Mm-hmm.

809

Because post falls and Coe

d'Alene officers are from Idaho.

810

Mm-hmm.

811

Which is explicitly coordinating with ice.

812

Mm-hmm.

813

They don't have to worry about

the Keep Washington Working Act.

814

Mm-hmm.

815

So again, SP County still is the policy

that's like our flock network can't be

816

used to make immigration sources searches.

817

But there's no real way to hold Idaho

officers accountable to that, especially

818

if they're lying in the search field.

819

Right.

820

It's like violent crime suspect or

might have stolen a car and then

821

they're just making searches that

they can then freely turn over to ICE

822

with no consequences because Idaho

officers are allowed to coordinate

823

with immigration enforcement officials.

824

I recall you were talking in the

newsroom about, um, some of the,

825

the like emails that had access

or that came back in that list.

826

Mm-hmm.

827

And there were some that you couldn't

identify what, uh, organization

828

they were with, like Yeah.

829

Have you gotten down to the

bottom of that at all yet?

830

One of them.

831

Um, okay.

832

One of the weird emails on the

list was rig9@spokanesomething.com.

833

Mm-hmm.

834

And I did find out that that is like.

835

The login for the realtime

crime center, I think.

836

Okay.

837

Or like the login that they give

the real time crime center folks.

838

'cause some of the marketing

materials for that said that it

839

was coordinated through Rig nine.

840

I don't really know what that like

term means, but I know that that one

841

is associated with Spokane County.

842

Oh, maybe it's like rigg, like a, like

a, like the vehicle that, I don't know.

843

It was, it was, yeah.

844

Very weird.

845

But I do know that that is like an

official email despite looking funky.

846

Mm-hmm.

847

There have been a couple that we

still haven't been able to nail down.

848

The one that's the weirdest is that one of

the authorized users on the Spokane County

849

Flock network is Spokane temp@gmail.com.

850

Hmm.

851

So not associated with a government email,

uh, could belong to anybody and mm-hmm.

852

I wanna know, I've put

in a request for mm-hmm.

853

What searches have come from that account.

854

Um, so I can maybe see like, mm-hmm.

855

Was it a dummy account?

856

Yeah.

857

That they just made to

like test something?

858

Might be, yeah.

859

That would be, might be

the best, best faith.

860

Mm-hmm.

861

Uh, reading.

862

Is it an email that they give or

a login that they give to all of

863

the Spokane Police Department?

864

Mm-hmm.

865

Is it an email that they

give to ice officers?

866

Like there's a full range of extremely

innocent to not that this could be, um.

867

And because they won't just take

my calls and answer me, I have

868

resorted to submitting a copious

amount of public records requests

869

that I'm waiting for answers on.

870

Amazing.

871

Um, so just to review, we are talking

about automated license plate readers.

872

Um, AKA, the brand name is Flock.

873

The, that's the brand that Spokane County,

um, city and surrounding cities use.

874

And we're talking about the

implications of that because Aaron has

875

been doing a ton of research on it.

876

And Lauren, our urbanism columnist mm-hmm.

877

We're working on some flock reporting.

878

Yes.

879

Um, so I, I guess I have, uh,

one like question, um, is there

880

any like AI element to this, like

artificial intelligence there?

881

I am so glad you asked Valerie.

882

The answer is yes.

883

Oh, sorry.

884

Yay.

885

Yay.

886

Big brother.

887

Um, yeah.

888

So there is not like currently

a massive AI involvement mm-hmm.

889

But it's being studied

for like future tools.

890

So, um, flock, like leaked audio

that was obtained by 4 0 4 showed

891

that they were flock was building

a massive people lookup tool.

892

And one element of that

was, um, predictive data.

893

So the best way I can explain

predictive data mm-hmm.

894

Is that.

895

Let's say you work Monday through Friday.

896

Mm-hmm.

897

Nine to five.

898

Um, most of us have like

a coffee habit, right?

899

Mm-hmm.

900

Like you start to get into a rhythm.

901

If you have, uh, have to be at work Monday

at 9:00 AM maybe you get up at eight

902

and you leave your house at eight 30.

903

You get coffee at the coffee shop

on the way to work at 8:45 AM you

904

to work by 9:00 AM your car stays

in the work parking lot until five.

905

Mm-hmm.

906

And then you drive home.

907

That's all information that

like, you know, um, however,

908

hypothetically mm-hmm.

909

AI could analyze.

910

Pings from flock cameras and be able to

put together your regular schedule from

911

where your car has pinged on, which flock

cameras at which times, and they'd be

912

able to say, or the AI would be able to

say like, oh, we've noticed a pattern.

913

Mm-hmm This car does this at this time.

914

And then they'd be able to predict like,

oh, you're looking to arrest Val oer.

915

Well, usually she's at this coffee

stand at 9:00 AM We've analyzed

916

that from our predictive model.

917

Joe, you, I'm unpredictable.

918

You always think you are

until AI starts analyzing you.

919

So that's one element

that AI is tied to this.

920

There is also, um, ICE has tapped into

nationwide AI enabled camera network.

921

So those like Lowe's and uh, home Depot.

922

Home Depot cameras are an AI enabled

and they can also, there's been

923

some really weird reporting about.

924

How this AI has enabled, like

tried to identify su quote unquote

925

suspicious behavior and then

preemptively notify police that

926

suspicious behavior or suspicious

car patterns might be occurring.

927

Mm-hmm.

928

So, you know, when.

929

Like on Nextdoor when people are

like, I've seen the same black

930

car on my block three times.

931

Yeah.

932

Are they kissing my house?

933

Mm-hmm.

934

It's kind of like the ai, big brothers

surveillance state version AI of

935

that big bear, big brother Karen.

936

Yeah.

937

Who's like, um, hey girly.

938

This black SUV has driven past

lows 15 times in the last hour.

939

You might want to pull them

over and see what's going on.

940

Um, this is like

editorializing a little bit.

941

Yeah.

942

Because I'm trying to put more

of this in like a plain language.

943

Mm-hmm.

944

Or explain how this

could be used for evil.

945

Um, explaining how things

can be used for evil.

946

Yeah.

947

It's our jobs, but that

is how like AI has been.

948

Involved or could be further involved

as all of these tech companies are

949

trying to integrate AI into everything.

950

Yeah.

951

We just all love that, don't we?

952

Um, so on kind of the, the same vein

of like AI and, um, you know, tech,

953

that's not necessarily like explicitly

ai, but it's like machine learning

954

and um, is there a way, are, are there

people out there, I guess, and I'm

955

not like encouraging, like breaking

the law or anything like that, but

956

like, are there like, people out

there, movements out there that are,

957

people are figuring out how to like

lawfully obscure their license plates?

958

Mm.

959

Just to like a camera reader.

960

Like, you know how like

people like the AI makeup?

961

Yes.

962

Yeah.

963

Something like that.

964

I don't know that I've seen that.

965

Mm-hmm.

966

I have seen nationwide

movements to kind of.

967

Track and document and make the

public more aware of this tech.

968

There's a website called De Flocked.

969

Mm.

970

Um, and they do their best to

log the presence of AI cameras.

971

Okay.

972

What network they're from.

973

I know firsthand that they don't

have all of the information.

974

'cause they only had about six

of the cameras that I've Oh wow.

975

Been able to find.

976

Uh, and to be fair, I had

to go through like Yeah.

977

And, and Lauren had to go through

multiple council agendas mm-hmm.

978

And like going back to 2021 Wow.

979

Yeah.

980

To track all of this.

981

So it was a ton of effort.

982

Mm-hmm.

983

Um, have you talked to

anybody from that website?

984

No.

985

No I haven't.

986

Okay.

987

Um, I'm probably going to try to turn over

my coordinates to them once we publish.

988

Yeah.

989

So that they can add all

of the cameras mm-hmm.

990

If they're interested.

991

Just 'cause I think that the more

widely available public information

992

is the better and like everything

I got, I got from public documents.

993

Mm-hmm.

994

Or, um, but.

995

Uh, I'm sorry, I forgot the question.

996

I'm sort of rambling.

997

Oh, uh, lawfully obscuring your license.

998

Yes.

999

I haven't seen anything like that.

00:46:24,930 --> 00:46:24,960

Okay.

00:46:24,960 --> 00:46:28,470

But I have seen, and like locally

there's a movement mm-hmm.

00:46:28,770 --> 00:46:32,970

There's been a petition and

some push to get counsel to

00:46:33,000 --> 00:46:34,710

not install those cameras Okay.

00:46:34,710 --> 00:46:36,390

Or to pull back the contract.

00:46:36,930 --> 00:46:40,050

Um, and I'm still trying to figure out

how far along in that process they are.

00:46:40,080 --> 00:46:43,860

'cause the, the SPD says that no

cameras have been installed yet.

00:46:44,190 --> 00:46:44,370

Okay.

00:46:44,490 --> 00:46:47,160

Um, I don't know when

they would be installed.

00:46:47,160 --> 00:46:48,240

If they will be installed.

00:46:48,240 --> 00:46:49,020

What's going on with that?

00:46:49,020 --> 00:46:52,650

Just that the funding to install them

and that the intersections have been

00:46:52,650 --> 00:46:54,480

chosen for if they get installed.

00:46:55,395 --> 00:46:59,805

Is there any like legislation like

either nationally or statewide or

00:46:59,985 --> 00:47:04,035

in any state that you know of, like

that's trying to hit on any of this?

00:47:04,155 --> 00:47:08,415

California is trying to hit on

some of the immigration stuff.

00:47:08,445 --> 00:47:08,775

Okay.

00:47:08,925 --> 00:47:14,655

Um, to do data protection that like,

doesn't allow, um, nationwide or

00:47:14,655 --> 00:47:17,595

federal searches of California's data.

00:47:18,225 --> 00:47:21,075

Um, Washington could do something similar.

00:47:21,345 --> 00:47:22,455

Mm-hmm.

00:47:22,456 --> 00:47:22,530

I they could.

00:47:22,590 --> 00:47:23,010

Mm-hmm.

00:47:23,095 --> 00:47:23,505

Um,

00:47:25,905 --> 00:47:34,515

we do have, like the counties privacy

settings seem to be as low as they,

00:47:34,545 --> 00:47:37,485

or like as good as flock allows for.

00:47:37,515 --> 00:47:37,605

Mm-hmm.

00:47:37,845 --> 00:47:39,735

So they only keep data for 30 days.

00:47:39,735 --> 00:47:39,825

Mm-hmm.

00:47:40,065 --> 00:47:42,435

As opposed to like a 60 or a 90 day keep.

00:47:42,885 --> 00:47:43,245

Um.

00:47:44,055 --> 00:47:47,625

They, you know, say that you

can't use it to search for,

00:47:48,075 --> 00:47:50,010

uh, traffic enforcement mm-hmm.

00:47:50,095 --> 00:47:55,245

Or for immigration enforcement or for a

variety of like, lower caliber crimes.

00:47:55,575 --> 00:47:55,605

Okay.

00:47:55,875 --> 00:47:59,385

Um, so the bar that you're

supposed to clear to be able to

00:47:59,385 --> 00:48:03,105

search the county's flock network

is supposed to be pretty high.

00:48:03,105 --> 00:48:03,135

Okay.

00:48:04,455 --> 00:48:09,045

I think that there could be

legislation that would require audits.

00:48:09,050 --> 00:48:09,130

Mm-hmm.

00:48:09,210 --> 00:48:14,145

Regular audits of, um, flock usage

and searches to make sure that people

00:48:14,145 --> 00:48:18,495

are actually, like the search queries

that people are giving actually line

00:48:18,495 --> 00:48:20,685

up with real crimes or suspects.

00:48:20,835 --> 00:48:20,955

Yeah.

00:48:21,255 --> 00:48:27,405

Um, there's also the flock transparency

portal, which is through their software.

00:48:27,405 --> 00:48:28,455

Mm-hmm.

00:48:28,456 --> 00:48:28,466

Uh.

00:48:28,670 --> 00:48:33,765

Uh, jurisdictions can opt more or less

data into that transparency portal.

00:48:33,885 --> 00:48:37,095

Spokane County has opted

very little data in.

00:48:37,095 --> 00:48:37,125

Okay.

00:48:37,395 --> 00:48:41,415

Uh, some jurisdictions will let you

see like the number of searches police

00:48:41,415 --> 00:48:44,985

have made, oh, the kinds of searches

they've made, the search queries,

00:48:44,985 --> 00:48:49,515

and that's all on that transparency

portal publicly for anybody to search.

00:48:49,725 --> 00:48:52,665

So there might be a way for state

legislation to require mm-hmm.

00:48:53,145 --> 00:48:56,715

That any jurisdictions with flock

software opt into like the maximum

00:48:56,715 --> 00:48:59,475

level of public transparency

with how they're using the tech.

00:48:59,745 --> 00:49:00,255

Okay.

00:49:01,005 --> 00:49:07,990

And so, I forgot my train

of thought, um, with the,

00:49:11,250 --> 00:49:12,375

uh, I'm sorry.

00:49:12,375 --> 00:49:13,755

I totally just lost it.

00:49:13,755 --> 00:49:14,745

So what do we.

00:49:15,885 --> 00:49:20,775

So you kind of already went like,

we don't know a lot about like flock

00:49:20,775 --> 00:49:26,205

specifically because, oh, I have a,

I remember now, sorry, listeners.

00:49:26,565 --> 00:49:30,555

Um, do you have an idea or like an

estimation of like how many flock

00:49:30,555 --> 00:49:33,285

cameras are there are nationwide?

00:49:33,945 --> 00:49:36,795

Like if there's 60 in Spokane County?

00:49:36,795 --> 00:49:36,945

Yeah.

00:49:36,945 --> 00:49:43,035

And there's like nine Inni, like are we

talking thousands, tens of thousands,

00:49:43,035 --> 00:49:45,570

hundreds of thousands, et cetera?

00:49:45,570 --> 00:49:51,375

00:49:51,380 --> 00:49:51,520

Mm-hmm.

00:49:52,155 --> 00:49:55,905

It was estimated that there were.

00:49:56,805 --> 00:50:01,185

Uh, sorry, I'm like power scrolling.

00:50:01,185 --> 00:50:04,080

This article definitely threw

this question that you're in.

00:50:04,085 --> 00:50:04,665

I know, I know.

00:50:04,665 --> 00:50:06,525

And I have a source for this.

00:50:06,525 --> 00:50:08,475

I wanna say it was, there were

00:50:10,515 --> 00:50:18,435

tens, tens of thousands of a LPRs

00:50:18,435 --> 00:50:22,695

like even locally, the majority

of Alps were installed after that.

00:50:22,695 --> 00:50:24,285

So I have to imagine that numbers.

00:50:24,315 --> 00:50:24,465

Yeah.

00:50:24,765 --> 00:50:25,395

Jumped.

00:50:25,725 --> 00:50:31,575

Um, according to the Borough of Justice

Statistics, 93% of police departments

00:50:31,575 --> 00:50:36,015

in cities with populations of 1

million or more utilize A LPR systems.

00:50:36,075 --> 00:50:40,785

And in cities with populations of a

hundred thousand or more, 75% of those

00:50:40,785 --> 00:50:43,095

police departments use a LPR systems.

00:50:43,095 --> 00:50:43,105

Hmm.

00:50:43,545 --> 00:50:44,835

00:50:44,835 --> 00:50:48,105

I have to imagine that, um, just with.

00:50:48,175 --> 00:50:50,020

The way that tech progresses.

00:50:50,020 --> 00:50:50,380

Mm-hmm.

00:50:50,460 --> 00:50:53,095

That number has probably

exponentially, yeah.

00:50:53,425 --> 00:50:54,265

Increased.

00:50:54,355 --> 00:50:57,925

I mean, especially with like all

of the AI advancements and stuff,

00:50:57,925 --> 00:51:01,285

like, it's even more likely.

00:51:01,885 --> 00:51:01,975

Mm-hmm.

00:51:02,665 --> 00:51:05,965

Um, I think, um, for folks who are.

00:51:06,590 --> 00:51:07,580

Curious about this.

00:51:07,580 --> 00:51:10,160

I do have a story coming out.

00:51:10,310 --> 00:51:14,480

There is still a lot, uh, a lot

more questions than I have answers.

00:51:14,480 --> 00:51:18,830

Like, I thought I had a really solid

short, easy story here, and then the

00:51:18,830 --> 00:51:21,380

more I dove into it, the more I was like,

oh, I found answers on this one thing.

00:51:21,380 --> 00:51:23,480

But it opened up four more questions.

00:51:23,900 --> 00:51:27,020

Uh, so it's, it's kind of

turned into a lengthy project.

00:51:27,025 --> 00:51:27,265

Mm-hmm.

00:51:27,405 --> 00:51:29,330

Um, but 4 0 4 media mm-hmm.

00:51:29,330 --> 00:51:33,800

Is a worker owned independent

newsroom that has a ton of

00:51:33,800 --> 00:51:35,870

reporting on flock cameras.

00:51:35,870 --> 00:51:38,270

They've been kind of at the

cutting edge of covering.

00:51:38,575 --> 00:51:39,865

This tech.

00:51:39,955 --> 00:51:40,135

Mm-hmm.

00:51:40,375 --> 00:51:43,045

Um, it's definitely where I've

done a bunch of my research

00:51:43,045 --> 00:51:46,165

and background reading as I

start to look at this locally.

00:51:46,165 --> 00:51:46,195

Okay.

00:51:46,255 --> 00:51:51,235

And then the big project that I'm working

on, um, is mapping all of the mm-hmm.

00:51:51,475 --> 00:51:55,645

Active or incoming flock cameras

in our county so that folks have a

00:51:55,645 --> 00:51:58,495

sense of where those cameras are.

00:51:58,555 --> 00:51:58,645

Mm-hmm.

00:51:58,885 --> 00:52:04,135

Spoiler alert, they're on almost, they're

already on almost every major roadway

00:52:04,135 --> 00:52:06,595

entering or exiting the county of Spokane.

00:52:07,015 --> 00:52:08,335

So Amazing.

00:52:08,665 --> 00:52:09,175

Yeah.

00:52:09,625 --> 00:52:10,465

That's so exciting.

00:52:10,465 --> 00:52:15,985

So, last question, on a scale of one to

10, how worried about Big Brother are we?

00:52:16,225 --> 00:52:19,315

Hmm, hmm hmm.

00:52:20,035 --> 00:52:20,395

I'm honest.

00:52:22,105 --> 00:52:26,755

The more I dive into this,

the more stressed I get.

00:52:26,755 --> 00:52:26,845

Mm-hmm.

00:52:27,400 --> 00:52:27,620

Um.

00:52:28,725 --> 00:52:31,035

Probably like an eight out of 10.

00:52:31,425 --> 00:52:31,455

Okay.

00:52:31,455 --> 00:52:34,725

And I was tussling in the

comments sections back in the

00:52:34,725 --> 00:52:40,725

day, uh, fighting to protect red

light and, uh, speeding cameras.

00:52:40,845 --> 00:52:40,965

Mm-hmm.

00:52:41,265 --> 00:52:43,455

And I do think it is

important to distinguish Yeah.

00:52:43,455 --> 00:52:45,345

That these are two different things.

00:52:45,405 --> 00:52:45,495

Mm-hmm.

00:52:45,735 --> 00:52:47,835

They keep data for a

different amount of time.

00:52:47,835 --> 00:52:51,255

They give data to a different amount

of, a different, different sources

00:52:51,555 --> 00:52:52,965

in order to access that data.

00:52:52,970 --> 00:52:53,110

Mm-hmm.

00:52:53,190 --> 00:52:54,225

It takes different steps.

00:52:54,670 --> 00:52:58,575

I, I need to stress that, like the red

light cameras also generate a lot of money

00:52:58,785 --> 00:53:03,285

income that goes straight into creating

safer streets programs in Spokane.

00:53:03,285 --> 00:53:07,275

And like, in order for those cameras

to even log your data, you basically

00:53:07,275 --> 00:53:08,805

have to be suspected of doing a crime.

00:53:09,015 --> 00:53:09,135

Mm-hmm.

00:53:09,136 --> 00:53:11,115

Because it's like you triggered the Yeah.

00:53:11,115 --> 00:53:13,065

Over 25 miles an hour camera.

00:53:13,275 --> 00:53:15,495

These are just passively collecting.

00:53:15,495 --> 00:53:15,555

Yeah.

00:53:15,615 --> 00:53:18,405

All of this information from you that.

00:53:18,975 --> 00:53:21,585

Like, even if we assume the Spokane

County Sheriff's Office has the

00:53:21,585 --> 00:53:22,860

absolute best of intent mm-hmm.

00:53:22,945 --> 00:53:26,415

And is only ever using this to solve

violent, serious crimes mm-hmm.

00:53:26,715 --> 00:53:32,505

The data is still owned and

hosted by Nationwide Tech company.

00:53:32,595 --> 00:53:32,715

Mm-hmm.

00:53:32,955 --> 00:53:35,565

That moves quicker than

the speed of regulation.

00:53:35,570 --> 00:53:38,205

And it's, and I think that is always

something to be nervous about.

00:53:38,415 --> 00:53:38,745

Yeah.

00:53:38,745 --> 00:53:42,525

And I, I just like quickly Googled,

like, who owns flock safety?

00:53:42,525 --> 00:53:44,895

And it's owned by a couple of rich people.

00:53:45,435 --> 00:53:48,945

It's privately owned, you know, or,

um, I actually don't quote me on that.

00:53:49,095 --> 00:53:51,645

It was founded by some

private rich people.

00:53:52,485 --> 00:53:55,935

Um, so that is fascinating.

00:53:56,025 --> 00:54:00,015

Um, I'll be real, I'm really

excited to see your story.

00:54:00,135 --> 00:54:01,305

Um, thank you.

00:54:01,400 --> 00:54:05,025

And, and, um, I was gonna

ask one more quick question

00:54:05,025 --> 00:54:07,095

and it flew out of my brain.

00:54:07,815 --> 00:54:08,475

That's okay.

00:54:08,475 --> 00:54:08,535

Yeah.

00:54:08,535 --> 00:54:13,125

I hope this wasn't too, um, wonky

and weedsy, and I know it might be

00:54:13,125 --> 00:54:15,075

frustrating as a listener to be like.

00:54:15,645 --> 00:54:18,405

Well, why are you talking about this if

you have more questions than answers?

00:54:18,885 --> 00:54:22,635

Um, but I also think it's

indicative of just mm-hmm.

00:54:22,875 --> 00:54:26,145

How much information about you

the government can collect.

00:54:26,535 --> 00:54:27,555

And I am like mm-hmm.

00:54:27,795 --> 00:54:31,275

Battling in the public records

sections of these government websites

00:54:31,275 --> 00:54:35,595

to figure out what questions do I

ask, how do I phrase them correctly?

00:54:35,835 --> 00:54:38,445

Like, am I actually even

getting back mm-hmm.

00:54:38,835 --> 00:54:41,475

All of the info that they're

supposed to give me with the

00:54:41,475 --> 00:54:43,215

county's like incomplete list.

00:54:43,485 --> 00:54:43,545

Yeah.

00:54:43,815 --> 00:54:46,545

there's so much, so many questions

that I have about this that

00:54:46,545 --> 00:54:47,895

I'm trying to get answered.

00:54:47,985 --> 00:54:48,045

Yeah.

00:54:48,900 --> 00:54:50,640

Well, I think this was

a really good primer.

00:54:50,700 --> 00:54:54,000

Um, it was a good primer for

me as your editor who's gonna

00:54:54,000 --> 00:54:54,900

have to read your story.

00:54:55,470 --> 00:54:57,035

Um, and it's like A OBR.

00:54:57,035 --> 00:54:57,595

What's that?

00:54:57,785 --> 00:54:58,075

Yeah.

00:54:58,320 --> 00:55:01,950

And right off the bat I was like

completely wrong about something.

00:55:01,950 --> 00:55:03,600

So I love that.

00:55:03,660 --> 00:55:06,780

Um, so that is our time this week.

00:55:06,780 --> 00:55:08,220

Erin, do you wanna play us out?

00:55:09,570 --> 00:55:10,350

Yeah, I can do that.

00:55:13,620 --> 00:55:16,830

Free Range is a weekly news and

public affairs program presented

00:55:16,830 --> 00:55:20,700

by Range Media and produced by

Range Media and KYRS Community

00:55:20,700 --> 00:55:23,970

Radio, KYRS, medical Lake Spokane.

00:55:24,150 --> 00:55:26,310

Thanks for listening.