In this factual episode, Nicholas Loise, Founder of Sales Performance Team, shares how to build scalable sales teams and integrate marketing for growth. If you struggle with duct-tape sales processes and being stuck in selling, you won't want to miss it.

You will discover:

- How to align sales and marketing to avoid silos and boost revenue.

- Why creating playbooks turns average reps into consistent performers.

- What avoiding "one" dependencies like single salespeople prevents risks

This episode is ideal for for Founders, Owners, and CEOs in stage 4 of The Founder's Evolution. Not sure which stage you're in? Find out for free in less than 10 minutes at https://www.scalearchitects.com/founders/quiz

Nicholas Loise is a seasoned sales leader, entrepreneur, and marketing executive with a proven track record of helping small to midsize businesses improve their sales and marketing systems. Having served as Vice President of Sales, President, and Chief Revenue Officer, Nick specializes in building integrated processes and playbooks that drive growth, profitability, and long-term customer value. His experience spans from startups to Fortune 100 companies, where he has revamped sales structures, developed business development strategies, and enhanced customer retention.

Want to learn more aboutNicholas Loise' work at Your Sales Recruiter? Check out his website at https://salesperformanceteam.com/

Mentioned in this episode:

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Founder's Quiz

Hello, hello and welcome. Welcome once again

to the Start scale and succeed podcast. It's the only podcast

that grows with you through all seven stages of your journey. As

a founder, I'm your host, Scott Ritzheimer, and today I want to

talk to those founders out there who've built a company, not just

started a business. You've probably made it to stage four.

We've talked about that before and hit a wall. But a big part

of that wall we haven't talked much about is the very real

world of sales. You see at this stage so many founders, sales

function still feels like it's held together with duct tape and

hope, especially those who are particularly good at sales

themselves and have have struggled to find a way to

reproduce that in others. So if you're in that stage where

you've stepped back from just about everything else, but you

can't figure out how to get out of the way of sales, you are in

the right place, because Joining me today is the one and only

Nicholas Loise, who's a seasoned sales leader, entrepreneur and

marketing executive with a proven track record of helping

small to mid sized businesses improve their sales and

marketing systems, having served as VP of sales, president and

chief revenue officer, Nick specializes in building

integrated processes and playbooks that drive growth,

profitability and long term customer value, his experience

spans from startups to Fortune, 100 companies, where he's

revamped sales structures, developed business development

strategies and enhanced customer retention. He's here with us

today. Nicholas, welcome to the show. So glad to have you here.

I want to jump in because you you talk about something that a

lot of people don't talk about. In fact, a lot of people talk

about the opposite, which is what you call the diseconomy of

sales scale. What in the world does that mean? Why is it

relevant to our conversation here today?

Well, first off, thanks a million for having me

on and thank you for all the work that you're doing. We are

in the founder space all the time. We're in the small to mid

size business space. You guys do a phenomenal job at at scale

architects. And really, you know, my hat goes off to you.

It's, it's, it's, you're, you know, the driver of any economy,

no matter what Wall Street says or what the Wall Street Journal

Bloomberg says, really is small to mid sized businesses, and you

really focus on helping them. So thank you for that, too. Is, you

know, I think the most important thing is, you know, lot of times

founders because, as you said in the beginning of who you guys

talked to, they were good at building their business, right?

They just intuitively know how to sell. They I could wake them

up at three o'clock in the morning. They could close me,

right? They know intuitively if a customer says something or a

prospect says something five minutes in, they have to answer

that with a story about 18 minutes in, or else they're

going to get an objection at 24 they just know the process. But

the problem is, is they, they have a difficult time

articulating that to new sales people. They have a tough time

creating that architecture, if you will, because it's innate to

them. They just intuitively know what to do, when to do and why

to do it. And so we kind of come in and focus on helping them

build that platform, that sales architecture, if you will, so

that they have a machine that they could kind of plug and play

the players in and get the results that they want. Not as

well as a founder, right? No, no sales person in the world is

going to close as well as a founder will. But we go on to

put them into that we'd like to say, you know, we are like the

New England Patriots, right? Bill Belichick, who, you know,

as we're listening to this, didn't get in the first ballot,

but we'll get them eventually. You know, they just had a

program, and they could plug and play players in based on the

talent, based on their skill, but they had a very meticulous

playbook, and that's the same thing that we help founders

create.

Yeah, I love that. And and the playbook is, I

think it's gaining some traction. I think more

important, people are thinking these terms. But that's an

option, often not the option most people take right out of

the gate. What are some of the ways that folks try to solve

this problem that ultimately doesn't work.

First off is they hire somebody from a big

business and bring them into a small business, and maybe they

call in the same same type of clients, right? Or maybe they're

in the same space, but they came from a big logo, a big business,

and now they're in a small business. And then the founders

wondering why they can't sell. That's the first mistake that

everybody makes. We try to unwind that or stop that before

that happens. Two is they hire a bunch of salespeople, hire a

headcount, right? Give them a little bit of training, and say,

Go get them. Charge the mountain guys. Well, you know that

doesn't work either. So that's the second mistake that they do.

The third mistake that they do is that sometimes they get

enamored by sales people, and that person will never sell,

right? It just, it's just not in their DNA to be a salesperson.

But they either fell in love with the person they play golf

with their father. Or they play golf with their with their

spouse, something of that nature, and they've got the

wrong people on the wrong seats of the bus. So those are three

of the high level things that we see, Scott.

Yeah, yeah, you. You mentioned earlier, what

I think is really at the the core of this problem. And these

are three ways that they're trying to solve this same

problem. That is that they can't find a way to get something

that's in them out of them. And what I think is so challenging

about this, because folks listening to be like, that's not

a new problem. We talk about delegating all the time and this

and that, and that's not really what we're talking about here.

We're talking about this deeply innate skill that most founders

weren't actually born with, but were born predisposed to

develop, right? And so they come up with a way of of doing all of

this intuitively. They didn't go to Sales Training, most of them,

right? They didn't have someone give them a process for how to

sell and and so they've had success in handing other things

off. But for want some reason, this sales thing seems to stick

with them longer than the rest. Why do you think that is?

Control. One is control, right? You don't want

to give up the revenue driver. You like to eat. You like to you

like to feed your employees. Your employees like to eat your

children. Want shoes, right? So you want to control the revenue

side. Two is they've talked about what we talked about,

where they've had their heart broken, or they've hired people,

that person has, he or she hasn't sold. So then the owner

has to jump in, the founder has to jump back in and get the

revenue to where it goes. They don't want to do it, but they

realize that they kind of have to hold on to it and to kind of

re, re, I guess, retell what you just said, because you said it

so articulately. I always use the story of Jack Nichols, best

golfer. Well, one of the best golfers. Now, Scotty schiffler

and and Tiger are taking over for that. But somebody ran up to

him and said, How do you hit a one iron? He says, Well, you

take the one iron, you swing and you hit the ball right? So he

couldn't articulate how to do it. He just intuitively knew how

to do it. And that's a lot of times what founders have they

just one is they want to eat. Two is they had to grow the

business. Three is they probably started on a folding table or an

extra bedroom, and they had to get the business going. And they

picked up the phone and they sent emails and did LinkedIn,

and they worked a Rolodex, and they got deal flow going, and

then they learned a process in the system, and they just need

to, we come in to help them replicate that processes and

system.

Yeah. Nicholas, one of the big

sticking points is that for a founder who sells, to some

extent, more emotionally than than logically, that sale is

free. You know there's no sales commissions. You know you're

you're paying it to yourself and and so one of the things that

I've found is a real challenge is, how do you structure

compensation, and what role do you see as compensation playing

in this, this struggle to get a team up and running?

Well, first off, that's a great line. I'm going

to use it. I'll give you attribution to it, but that's a

great line that they think all the sales that they create are

free. So, I mean, a sales compensation plan is created to

drive the behaviors as well as the outcomes that you want,

right? It's simple. So that's what we have to do for some long

term sales. Maybe there's a production portion of the sales

compensation plan. A lot of times it's a percentage of

revenue. We like a percentage of profit, or we like a percentage

of cash coming in, but really it's set up to drive the

behavior and to drive the outcomes that you want. So you

have to reverse engineer,

yeah, and what do you find? They just decided

to blow leaves right outside my window. So I hope you can't hear

that, but you probably can.

I mean, I think they find out when all the

podcasts are happening, and they have master list, and every you

know that, they say in the morning, okay, I have to get

over by Nick's house because he's doing a podcast and I'm

going to do the lawn. So I actually had a problem here in

Chicago. So you'll hear a, you'll hear a you'll hear a

snowplow go by on my end. Yeah, don't worry about it.

I had a problem with it, where they were

always doing it right after I was done, and so I put a red

light outside to show when we were recording, to make sure

they got it right. So everyone listening, we tried not to do

this. But no, you, I don't know what I was going to ask, but I'm

going to ask this. You mentioned this earlier, and I think it's

another one of those things that gets in the way, and another

sticking point, and that is they can't sell as much as me. And I

think that shows up Nicholas a couple of ways, and I love for

you to speak to it to us. There's one of like, Hey, I'm

just not going to get somebody else because they can't sell as

much as me. But I think there's also this need that goes on even

after you have a team to, like, jump in and save the day, where

it's like, the big sale, or we're a little down in a month.

And what's the cost of that, especially over the long run?

So the cost is huge. So the first the first

point the cost is going to cost you points on your exit. Okay,

so if they can't sell as much as me, so therefore I don't want to

build a sales team, the sales process and all that, no one is

going to buy your business, or they're going to buy it for a

lot less than you think it's worth, because they like I got

to buy myself a job, or I got to find a salesperson and train

that salesperson up. I'm going to take a hit on revenue. So

you're doing really long term detrimental value to your net

worth and to your exit. And for many of the people that we work

with, and I'm sure with you also Scott, their business is their

number one asset, right? It's it's going to fund their

retirement. It's going to fund the kids college funds. It's

yada. It's going to let them pay back to what they want to do, or

start a foundation. So we want them to maximize as much as they

possibly can. And the best way to do that is have a really

tight sales process and have a number of sales people, not just

one really great sales people, but a number of sales people

that drive the revenue. Now you've got a machine, and people

will buy that, or private equity will look hard at that. So

that's the first reason why. The second reason why is something

not only founders, we see with founders, but we also see when

everybody does the kiss of death, they take the best

salesperson and they promote him to sales leader. And so his

intuitive instinct is to drive deals right? So he doesn't coach

up the team, he doesn't move the team. He runs in and jumps in

when the deal is stalled or over the edge. And we see that a lot

with founders, too, is the deal is stalled and they want

revenue, right? Because that's what they're driven and we all

are always fearful of the shoes gonna drop on the other foot. So

I don't, I'm not judging them. I'm just saying is that that

will do detrimental value and it will start to demoralize your

team. So you have to stay away from doing that. Sales leaders

have to stay away from do that. And you never don't hire sales

people.

Yeah, yeah. You, you mentioned sales

leadership, and maybe even in your bio, sales management

there. What's the difference between sales sales management

and sales leadership? And what does a founder at this stage

need most?

So it depends on where they're at from a revenue

perspective, if they are in the let's say, under $5 million

dollar stage, they probably need sales, keep sales people

blocking and tackling, moving deals forward, picking up the

phone and prospecting, doing discovery, doing you know,

objection handling and all that. Right? So that's what they need.

Probably at that three to 5 million range they could think

about a fractional sales manager or leader. That person is, what

we'll say, the zookeeper. And I mean that would love it and

admiration. I'm a salesperson myself, so I got four people,

four fingers going back at me, but they're managing the

inmates, if you will, right? So they're managing the team,

they're managing deal flow. They're doing a lot of

mentoring. They're listening to calls. They're walking them off

the edge. Has where you and I are speaking. I got a team that

we're managing and their sales persons texting me because they

think the other person is stealing leads, right? So

dealing with all of those things that a sales leader shouldn't be

dealing with and a founder should never be dealing with.

Now you're going to get to five to 7 million, maybe 10 million.

Okay, you still probably maybe move that sales manager to full

time. Then now you're going to get ready for a leader. A sales

leader really is focused on big deals, right? And how do I move

revenue? Maybe at a zero, maybe at two zeros, right? What's our

distribution channel? Do I bring in partners, you know? So

they're looking at all the different channels, if you will.

And they think about the world strategically. Sales people are

doing the work. They're the worker bees, the ants, if you

will. The sales leader is kind of directing them. Sales

Managers kind of directing them, making sure that the the raw

materials there, and they're trained up. And the sales leader

is saying, here's the mountain we're going to go and it's going

to get us this. And they're really kind of building out the

high level plans, 30,000 foot 10,000 foot boots on the ground

type thing.

Yeah. Nicholas, I could ask you about

5000 more questions on this. I just love your approach and the

clarity that you're able to bring to it. But there is one

question that I want to make sure we have time for. And this

question I ask all my guests, and it is this, what would you

say is the biggest secret that you wish wasn't a secret at all?

What's that one thing you wish everybody watching or listening

today knew?

So it's a great question. So I think the one is

sales is both the science and an art right? You got to get the

science part right. The art is dealing with people, dealing

with prospects, dealing with that, but you got to get the

science part right. Got to get the foundational formula

correct. And then we can make we could do the the art form, but

focus on the science of sales, the blocking and tackling of

sales. They execute. Question of it, and then you get into the

nuance of the people skills.

Yeah, yeah, I love ordering this Nicholas.

There's certainly folks listening to this, and they're

right there the duct tape and hope thing isn't working for

them anymore, and they really want to find a way of building a

scalable, effective, sustainable sales team, where can they find

more out about the work that you do and connect with you.

That's very kind. So they could go to our

website, salesperformance team.com, we got a bunch of

freebies on there. We give back right? So there's a lot of

information. There's a lot of lot of stuff. And they just, if

they go to Sales pack, dot sales performance team, calm and let

us know that they're a person of the show. We'll send them our

books. We'll send them all of our stuff. We give back, right?

We're a content producer. Folks, that's the easiest way they go

to LinkedIn. Hit me up on LinkedIn. That's fine too.

That's probably the most active media that I'm on. Maybe a

little bit of Facebook. They send me an email at Nick at

salesperformance team.com, and the last thing I'm going to lead

them with is the second thing I wish everybody knew there wasn't

a secret, is one is the most dangerous number in sale, in

sales and in business. And it's one sales person is dangerous

because if he leaves now you're back to selling. It's one

provider. It's one source of income. It is one media,

whatever that is so focus on more than one, especially on the

sales size. Have as many as possible.

Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I couldn't

agree more. There's probably like five more episodes just in

that last statement. But Nicholas, thank you. Thank you

so much for being on the show. Really was a privilege and

honor. Having you here with us today, I appreciate it. And for

those of you watching and listening, you know your time

and attention mean the world to us, I hope you got as much out

of this episode as I know I did, and I cannot wait to see you

next time. Take care.