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Grace in the Rearview Mirror
Episode 10 • 13th August 2023 • Listening for Clues • On the Journey with Jon & Lauren
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Grace in the Rearview Mirror

We are honored to have the Reverend Mary Luck Stanley, Episcopal priest and newly-published co-author of "Grace in the Rearview Mirror," which offers perspectives on finding God in the everyday, from four women Episcopal priests who are married to Episcopal priests.

Highlights

00:00 Grace in the Rearview Mirror

00:00 Intro

01:13 How the Book Came into Being

02:53 Theme of the Book

05:46 What Have You Learned from this Experience?

11:32 How It Felt to Recall Painful Memories

14:50 Deeper Understanding of God

17:34 Book Groups and Questions

19:48 Writing and a Personal Journey

22:41 Sources of Inspiration

23:46 Where to Get the Book

23:59 Authors Will "Zoom" to Your Book Group

25:01 Thanks

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Mary Luck Stanley graduated from Texas A&M and the Church Divinity School of the Pacific. She has been an Episcopal priest since 1997 and is currently serving as co-rector of Old St. Paul's Episcopal Church in Baltimore. Mary is one of four co-authors of the book, "Grace in the Rearview Mirror: Four Women Priests on Brokenness, Belonging, and the Beauty of God."

Listening for Clues is pleased to present our new series, "Good News!" featuring weekly conversations with people who are making a difference, large or small. We want everyone to know what they are doing, why they are doing it, and how. So, our listeners and viewers can experience the good news and go out and make a difference themselves.

Listening for Clues invites you into conversations that discover clues, rather than solutions to life’s problems. Join the journey with Jon Shematek and Lauren Welch, Episcopal deacons, as we explore whatever lies ahead. Check our website Listening for Clues.

© 2023 Listening for Clues

Transcripts

Jon:

Welcome to Good News, being brought to you by Listening for Clues.

Lauren:

We are Lauren Welch and Jon Shematek.

Lauren:

Deacons in the Episcopal Diocese of Maryland.

Jon:

We sure are.

Jon:

And we've got some good news for you today.

Jon:

We're bringing you some good news from the Reverend Mary Luck Stanley.

Jon:

She is the co rector of Old St.

Jon:

Paul's Episcopal Church in Baltimore, Maryland.

Jon:

Mary graduated from Texas A& M and the Church Divinity School of the Pacific

Jon:

Mary is one of four co-authors of the book, Grace In the Rear View Mirror;

Jon:

Four Women Priests on Brokenness, Belonging, and the Beauty of God.

Jon:

Welcome, Mary.

Jon:

We're so glad you're here with us today.

Mary:

Well, thank you.

Mary:

It's an honor to be with you, Jon and Lauren, and thank you for inviting me.

Lauren:

We're really

Lauren:

happy to have you, Mary.

Lauren:

To get started, and I know that you all talk about this in your book, but

Lauren:

what inspired the writing of this book?

Mary:

Oh, thank you for asking.

Mary:

I was part of a clergy colleague group.

Mary:

And I was actually paid to be the mentor through the Thriving in Ministry program

Mary:

that was sponsored by the Lilly Foundation and Virginia Theological Seminary.

Mary:

And we were all over the country, so we were meeting on Zoom.

Mary:

This is before the pandemic and before people knew how to use

Mary:

Zoom, so it was very exotic.

Mary:

And we had one in person gathering, a retreat.

Mary:

And at that gathering, We shared our spiritual autobiographies with each

Mary:

other as a way of reflecting and getting to know each other more deeply.

Mary:

One of the things that we also did was to develop people's learning goals.

Mary:

And lo and behold, three of the clergy in the group had the

Mary:

learning goal of writing a book.

Mary:

And I felt responsible as the mentor, and because I, I do write, I said, Oh,

Mary:

okay, well I'll help you write this book.

Mary:

And I never thought it would get published.

Lauren:

So that was a surprise, huh?

Mary:

It was a surprise, and we wrote together for several years, and my writing

Mary:

coach helped us with editing, and we, we did meet one other time to have a writing

Mary:

retreat, and talked about the theme of our book, but in a way, we all wrote, and

Mary:

the theme emerged, so we were really happy that it came together toward the end.

Lauren:

Can you talk about the theme of your book and how that evolved?

Mary:

Yes we really wanted to write a book that would invite people to see

Mary:

God at work in their everyday lives.

Mary:

We started with a conversation about how every human being really yearns.

Mary:

To have encounters with something greater than themselves the sacred and or call it

Mary:

a higher power You know God if you will and so We really wanted to try to write

Mary:

some stories that would help people to see you know God is in the ordinary as much

Mary:

as in the extraordinary and the obvious

Jon:

Yeah, and so Mary that sounds like something that is kind of a universal

Jon:

Need or a universal theme for people.

Jon:

The reason I'm saying that in your subtitle there's Four women Priests and

Jon:

I think as I wrote in my review of your book I'm neither a woman nor a priest

Jon:

nor am I married to a priest and so you And your co authors are all Episcopal

Jon:

priests married to Episcopal priests.

Jon:

Is that right?

Mary:

Yes, and we all have children and so we did think that we had a particular

Mary:

voice A particular contribution and we really took seriously that there are lots

Mary:

of theologians and really everyone's a theologian when you talk about God, but

Mary:

that a lot of the theologians in the past

Mary:

were men.

Mary:

Those are the people who wrote and were revered.

Mary:

We really took seriously that we're theologians and we're women and we

Mary:

are going to reflect on God from a perspective of women today who

Mary:

are right in the thick of lives.

Jon:

And that is something that has relevance for people who are

Jon:

not women, who are not priests, who are not married to priests.

Mary:

Well there's a guy in my parish who said, well, I, I don't

Mary:

know if I can relate to this.

Mary:

I, I, I've never had children and you know, I don't know anything

Mary:

about what you all are talking about.

Mary:

And I said, well, maybe you ought to read it and learn something

Mary:

about a different perspective.

Mary:

Maybe it'll add to your understanding of the fullness of God.

Mary:

And so I really think that the book is perhaps.

Mary:

Some theological reflection and some stories that people maybe have not

Mary:

encountered as much in the literature.

Mary:

I mean, I don't know if there's a lot of theological reflection on

Mary:

things like infertility and adoption and raising children and marriage.

Mary:

And so, I hope that it's a real contribution.

Lauren:

Mary, what have you learned from writing this book, and reading it and

Lauren:

rethinking it and talking with people?

Mary:

Well, I'm starting to...

Mary:

have kind of an overarching theory about how the book came together for

Mary:

me and, and answering the question why?

Mary:

Why did we construct the book this way?

Mary:

Why did we write it?

Mary:

How would it be helpful to people?

Mary:

And so what I think is that if you start with the understanding that every

Mary:

human being yearns for to connect with something greater than themselves.

Mary:

And you can call it different names, higher power, God whatever.

Mary:

But if you start with that, and then you also have an understanding

Mary:

that God is omnipresent and is all around us all the time, then...

Mary:

The question is, why is it that people sometimes feel like it's so hard

Mary:

to experience God, to connect with God, to be in the presence of God?

Mary:

In some ways, it's really easy to be part of feel connected to God when you're

Mary:

looking out at the ocean, or you're hiking a mountain and seeing gorgeous

Mary:

views, or when you witness the birth of a child, or you're falling in love.

Mary:

It's harder in our lives to see God when we're right in the midst of

Mary:

a crisis or a very stressful time.

Mary:

And so I've had that experience where during a stressful time involving grief

Mary:

and, and illness and death, that it felt like God had left the building.

Mary:

It felt like I was abandoned by God.

Mary:

And That presented a lot of questions and problems for me.

Mary:

I think that what happens is that when we're in a crisis, We get tunnel vision.

Mary:

You know, we know that cortisol is a chemical that is a crisis response

Mary:

that help us to focus, but I also think that cortisol can help us or,

Mary:

or create a sense of tunnel vision.

Mary:

And when you get tunnel vision, you're very focused on solving a

Mary:

problem to get out of the crisis.

Mary:

But also, you can't see the perspective around what that

Mary:

tunnel vision has focused you on.

Mary:

And so I have this, this theory, and it's not my theory, it's, it's

Mary:

based on psychology and things I've read and my experience, is

Mary:

that sometimes it takes time.

Mary:

like years of healing to get to the place where you can look back on a stressful

Mary:

situation and not still have tunnel vision, but be able to mine that and look

Mary:

around and ask the question, where was God in the midst of that awful time when I

Mary:

just felt like God had left the building?

Mary:

And so my experience is that Looking back on those kinds of

Mary:

memories is a healing process.

Mary:

And it's funny that a lot of people who've read the book have talked not

Mary:

only about having tears as they read the book, but also raucous laughter.

Mary:

And I wonder sometimes about the cathartic and medicinal benefits of

Mary:

both laughter and tears when we go back and we, we look at our memories.

Mary:

We need to have some kind of movement there.

Mary:

So what I hope is that this book is an invitation To people, when they're

Mary:

ready, to look back on their lives.

Mary:

To consider writing a spiritual autobiography, or just sharing stories

Mary:

with whoever their trusted people are.

Mary:

It'd be great for a book group.

Mary:

And I hope that that's cathartic for them, and that somehow they say, Oh, wow,

Mary:

it felt like God was absent from this situation, but really I see God's grace.

Mary:

at work now and the great thing is that now that I've been thinking about it

Mary:

and I've had that experience enough times, the next time I get into a really

Mary:

horrible phase of my life, I think I'm going to have more confidence.

Mary:

That I'm gonna know.

Mary:

I have tunnel vision right now.

Mary:

It feels like God's not here because I'm suffering too much.

Mary:

But if I wait long enough, I will gain perspective eventually.

Mary:

And I know that's a long answer, but that is my perspective and and the way

Mary:

that I've been thinking about this book.

Jon:

Yeah, I think that is, actually points very clearly to the value

Jon:

of experiencing that book for the general public because I think that,

Jon:

again, I think that's a universal issue that we all struggle with.

Jon:

You know, you mentioned there were times when God, it felt like God had

Jon:

left the building, and I think all four of the segments by each of the authors

Jon:

kind of hinted at that or stated that.

Jon:

Clearly, that there was a time where something, you know, some of us

Jon:

might even call it a sort of a lack, a loss of faith and you think, wow,

Jon:

here are priests actually talking about times when God seemed absent.

Jon:

From their lives.

Jon:

And that was, that was to me was really some of the more poignant kind of moments.

Jon:

And, and So Mary I read your book the day it came out, I think.

Jon:

And then I, I did a quick refresher

Jon:

and once again I was glad I had a box of Kleenex handy, but I was thinking,

Jon:

how was that for you to actually recall?

Jon:

I don't want to do spoiler alerts for people that haven't experienced

Jon:

the book yet, but how was it for you to actually recall some of those

Jon:

moments of deep deep emotion and You know, you talked about forgiveness.

Jon:

You talked about so many major themes in a, in a very tiny space of of pages.

Jon:

But for you personally, how was the experience of recalling those memories

Jon:

and writing, actually writing this down?

Mary:

Yeah, there were, there were moments of catharsis and I had

Mary:

my own tears and my own laughter.

Mary:

I mean I felt like all four of us.

Mary:

, the four co authors are myself, Kelly Demo, Samantha Vincent

Mary:

Alexander, and Melissa Wilcox.

Mary:

So, we did not set out to write this book the way that it turned out.

Mary:

We set out to write, and we said about every three weeks we would

Mary:

share essays with each other.

Mary:

And I, my impression was that each of us was looking back on our lives

Mary:

and asking ourselves, and I know this is a weird way to say it,

Mary:

but what is it that's vibrating?

Mary:

What in our past could we write about that has resonance?

Mary:

And that's what we wrote about, and it came together.

Mary:

I, I hope it's the Holy Spirit at work knitting us together.

Mary:

We don't spend time together.

Mary:

We're in we're very different locations.

Mary:

We still have a colleague group, but we're not checking in about the book.

Mary:

But my experience of writing the book, first of all, was I

Mary:

was in awe of my fellow authors.

Mary:

They crack me up.

Mary:

They are so funny and so courageous to write about the

Mary:

things that they wrote about.

Mary:

And so vulnerable and so faithful right in the midst of that.

Mary:

I mean, I'm really so inspired by their faith, their stories that they shared.

Mary:

And then in my own writing I just I think it was helped me.

Mary:

Emotionally and psychologically, and I hope that's an invitation to

Mary:

people to recognize that anybody can write I'm not a big writer.

Mary:

I mean, I'm an Episcopal priest, but I have stories to tell and.

Mary:

Other people can tell their stories, too, and putting it down on paper is a

Mary:

wonderful psychotherapeutic and spiritual process, and then sharing it with people.

Mary:

What's that saying about bringing things out into the open?

Mary:

That sunshine is the cure for a lot of what ails us.

Mary:

And so, taking things that were hidden especially things that might

Mary:

involve shame and bringing them out and speaking forthrightly about them

Mary:

is a way of letting sunshine come and, and disinfect the shame and

Mary:

transform that to something sacred.

Mary:

So, stories in my past that maybe felt Hidden or confidential

Mary:

or too private to discuss.

Mary:

I brought those out and I feel a sense that they have been transformed.

Mary:

I feel some resurrection.

Mary:

Some new life right in the middle of that.

Mary:

One of the things I wanted to say was how much Frederick Buechner

Mary:

inspired me for years and years.

Mary:

And can I just read this quote, because it's my favorite thing ever.

Mary:

And we put it as the first thing in the book.

Mary:

But this is from his book, Now and Then, A Memoir of Vocation.

Mary:

And so here's Frederick Buechner a great theologian and writer.

Mary:

He says, Listen to your life.

Mary:

See it for the fathomless mystery it is.

Mary:

In the boredom and pain of it, no less than in the excitement and gladness.

Mary:

Touch, taste, smell your way to the holy and hidden heart of it.

Mary:

Because in the last analysis, all moments are key moments, and life itself is grace.

Mary:

I don't know what your experience has been.

Mary:

in the Episcopal Church.

Mary:

But I'm a cradle Episcopalian.

Mary:

I went to an Episcopal school.

Mary:

I grew up in the church.

Mary:

My dad was a priest.

Mary:

It was shocking to me as an adult for someone to say, look for God in your life.

Mary:

I don't know why that was shocking to me, but it's almost like my

Mary:

upbringing in the church always led me to be looking for a transcendent God

Mary:

outside of my life, my relationship.

Mary:

Another thing that I encountered as an adult, and, and this was

Mary:

through a church called St.

Mary:

Gregory of Nyssa in San Francisco Gregory of Nyssa really talked a lot about

Mary:

friendship, our friendship with God.

Mary:

And I had never considered that that was possible to have a friendship

Mary:

with God, and it led me to do a lot of thinking about God being

Mary:

working through my friendships.

Mary:

to care for me, to nurture me.

Mary:

And all of a sudden, a far away transcendent God became very present

Mary:

to me and very imminent in my life.

Mary:

And I started to see that no matter how bad things got in my life, that

Mary:

God was going to work through the people in my life to send care.

Mary:

and even rescue when needed.

Mary:

So I hope again that, that this book invites people to consider that God is

Mary:

right there in their everyday lives.

Mary:

And that even when they're a little bit blinded by tunnel vision, or stress,

Mary:

or grief, or whatever it is, that with time, they might be able to look back.

Mary:

on those experiences and see things through new eyes to see how God

Mary:

may have been present all along.

Jon:

Yeah, and so, Mary, I think one of the things that's just great,

Jon:

too, about your book is that it certainly is meant to be to be read

Jon:

by a person sitting and reading a book like I did earlier this summer.

Jon:

But you also have some wonderful structure in each, after each of the vignettes.

Jon:

There are some questions for reflection and that, you know, you mentioned

Jon:

a book group I can envision this also, and I think you even suggested

Jon:

that could be a great material for for a retreat or for people doing

Jon:

discernment in a group kind of setting.

Jon:

It's just, it's great.

Jon:

You've got the questions, the kind of the starter prompts

Jon:

to, to doing deeper reflection,

Mary:

thank you.

Mary:

I really am amazed book groups are such a big deal.

Mary:

People love their book groups and book groups become places

Mary:

where people share their lives.

Mary:

And journey through life together and, and wow, book groups really got people

Mary:

through the pandemic, didn't they?

Mary:

And so, I hope that this book is used by book groups who will read it

Mary:

together and reflect and then again be led to reflect on their own lives.

Mary:

The four authors really just wanted to say, look, We're inviting

Mary:

you to reflect on your lives.

Mary:

Now we're going to show you how it's done and we're going to share these stories.

Mary:

We hope it makes you laugh and cry and now you go do it.

Mary:

And I really am hoping and praying that church groups and non church

Mary:

groups will find ways to find meaning and inspiration in the book.

Lauren:

Mary, and I think that they will, especially because the questions at the

Lauren:

end of each essay are general questions.

Lauren:

They don't pertain to the experience of the author necessarily.

Lauren:

It can be your experience, which may be quite different.

Lauren:

But with similarities, so the questions do invite people to be vulnerable

Lauren:

and I think that's what each of you all were, were very vulnerable

Lauren:

and that's not something that we're comfortable in doing these days.

Lauren:

How has this, in your own personal life enhanced your spiritual journey, your

Lauren:

emotional journey, in writing this book?

Mary:

Well, I have now this theory, and again, it's not my theory, but I have this

Mary:

theory about when you enter dark times, And how you can feel shut off, and with

Mary:

time and experience and healing, you can look back and see you were not alone.

Mary:

That is a great comfort.

Mary:

I mean, it was the number one issue I had throughout seminary.

Mary:

I've been a priest for 26 years, and I guess it was so it would be, you know,

Mary:

29 years ago that I started seminary.

Mary:

And probably the first day of seminary, they said, what's

Mary:

your big theological problem?

Mary:

that you're going to work on here in seminary.

Mary:

And my theological problem had to do with a time in my life when my mother

Mary:

was ill and, and going blind and dying, where I felt God had abandoned us.

Mary:

And I worked on it academically, I worked on it in my colleague group,

Mary:

I worked on it in CPE and, but I feel like I'm still working on it.

Mary:

This is still part of my work and I wanted to put it in a book and share

Mary:

it because I do think that Other people struggle with this feeling that when

Mary:

times are difficult, that God has left us in the lurch, that God is no

Mary:

longer with us, but what I remember after the 9 11 events, that Mr.

Mary:

Rogers, Fred Rogers who was a good pastor had that quote that he published

Mary:

for children, and he said, you know, I always encourage children when.

Mary:

When there's a crisis, to look for the rescue workers.

Mary:

Look for the rescue workers and that's where God is coming into the situation.

Mary:

And so that's meaningful to me.

Mary:

And I have seen that at work.

Mary:

And so it helps me to be comforted that I can go into any situation, no

Mary:

matter how difficult, with a sense of confidence that God is with me and that

Mary:

God is going to be doing everything in God's power to somehow reach out,

Mary:

comfort me and rescue me where possible.

Jon:

That is, that's really that's really great news.

Jon:

It's not good news.

Jon:

It's great news

Lauren:

so Mary, do you have anything else to add before we leave?

Mary:

Well, it's that it an honor to be able to share my story

Mary:

hoping that it resonates with other people and their stories.

Mary:

I do want to say that in the past 20 years, I have been inspired by people

Mary:

like Anne Lamott and her writing and Brene Brown, who writes a lot about.

Mary:

Courageous sharing, and vulnerability.

Mary:

And so, I, I feel like we're not doing this all on our own.

Mary:

We're, the four authors certainly were influenced by these other great writers.

Mary:

And so, we hope that our book is a contribution to people, and that people

Mary:

will laugh and cry, and find some comfort, and also feel represented.

Mary:

That things like infertility, and adoption, and ministry, and the

Mary:

difficulties that we have in our lives, and Melissa talked about raising a child

Mary:

on the spectrum, that God's at work in the midst of all of that, and that

Mary:

we can bring that out and talk with each other about it, and find support,

Mary:

especially in the Episcopal Church.

Jon:

So Mary, your book is Grace in the Rearview Mirror, Four

Jon:

Women Priests on Brokenness, Belonging, and the Beauty of God.

Jon:

I know that's available on Amazon, because that's where I got it.

Jon:

So we'll put that link in the show notes.

Mary:

One thing I wanted to add is that I've already gotten three requests from

Mary:

people's book groups who would like me to zoom in to the first meeting of their

Mary:

book group when they're reading the book.

Mary:

And, you know, I'd be happy to do that anytime.

Mary:

It would be a joy.

Mary:

And so anyone who thinks that would help with their book group process let me know.

Mary:

Contact me through my email.

Mary:

It's listed on the church website.

Mary:

My co authors would be happy to pop in and be of support in any way that would help.

Jon:

Wow, what a treat that would be to have one of the actual

Jon:

authors at your book group.

Jon:

That doesn't happen that often, so that's a great, that's a great offer.

Jon:

So folks, if anyone who is watching or listening and would like Mary or one

Jon:

of the other co authors to participate in the kickoff to your book group just

Jon:

check out the the web link that'll be in the in our show notes for Old St.

Jon:

Paul's in Baltimore, Maryland, and you can get in touch with Mary and

Jon:

she'll help make that happen for you.

Jon:

So, gosh, Mary, thanks so much.

Jon:

I feel like I've been on sacred ground with you today.

Jon:

Walking, walking a very holy journey and makes me want to take my shoes off,

Jon:

which are almost off anyway, but this is this has just been a real treat.

Jon:

It's been wonderful to see you again, and you're this book is just jam packed

Jon:

with, with goodies for folks, so.

Jon:

Thank you very much for for writing it, but also thank you

Jon:

for spending time with us today.

Mary:

Thank you, Lauren and Jon.

Mary:

I love what you're doing here.

Mary:

I love this podcast and the focus of it.

Mary:

And it's so needed, so it's an honor to be with you and to

Mary:

contribute to sharing the good news.

Lauren:

And Jon and I want to thank our viewers and listeners today, too.

Lauren:

We cannot spread this good news without you.

Lauren:

So please take a moment.

Lauren:

To comment, like, and share on all your social media platforms.

Lauren:

That will help us spread good news to more people.

Lauren:

And until next time, peace and blessings.

Jon:

Good news is being brought to you by Listening for Clues.

Jon:

You can find us on our website, listeningforclues.

Jon:

com, our YouTube channel, our Vimeo channel, and just about every

Jon:

podcast platform that there is.

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