Shownotes
“ If you're going to be an entrepreneur and you're going to accomplish anything and you're going to grow your business in spite of a lot of negative things happening, you've got to be positive. So it's absolutely essential.”
- Mark Zweig
Episode Summary:
In this episode of The Zweig Letter Podcast, host Randy Wilburn sits down with Mark Zweig for a candid conversation about leadership, optimism, and embracing change in the AEC industry. Drawing from decades of experience and stories from the design trenches, Mark unpacks how leaders can break with outdated thinking, foster resilience, and turn market challenges into opportunities.
From evolving workplace cultures—including tales of "buttoned down" firms in the '90s—to the importance of decisive leadership, Mark and Randy explore what it takes to maintain an entrepreneurial mindset in uncertain times. The conversation digs into strategies around client outreach, the risks of overanalyzing decisions, and why open-book management and broader ownership structures drive firm success.
Tune in for actionable advice and fresh perspectives on thriving through economic uncertainty.
Key Takeaways:
- Leadership in Uncertainty: In challenging times, leaders must combine realism with optimism, set the tone for their teams, and believe in success despite obstacles.
- Action Over Analysis: Effective leaders act decisively, avoid “paralysis by analysis,” and seize opportunities quickly—especially when others hesitate.
- Continuous Client Outreach: Consistent, genuine relationship-building (such as regular check-ins) pays off in business development—cold emails and calls still work!
- Break Old Rules: Firms that creatively rethink ownership, encourage wider stock participation, and adopt open-book management foster loyalty and long-term growth.
- Recruit Proactively: Treat recruitment like building a sports team—always be looking for top talent, even if you’re not filling a current vacancy.
All this and more on this episode of the Zweig Letter podcast.
Links referenced in this episode:
- Connect with Mark Zweig on LinkedIn
- Learn about the Zweig Letter and subscribe: https://thezweigletter.com/
- Connect with Randy Wilburn on LinkedIn
Get your FREE Subscription to the Zweig Letter Newsletter.
Stay tuned for more enlightening content from the Zweig Letter podcast, and make sure to subscribe for regular updates!
Other episodes you'll enjoy:
Architecture with Heart - Carley Chastain
From Specs to Stories with Cherise Lakeside
Bridging Design and Construction with Dan Crist
AI Transforming AEC with KP Reddy
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Transcripts
Welcome to the Zweig letter podcast. Putting
Speaker:architectural engineering, planning, and environmental
Speaker:consulting advice and guidance in your ear. Zweig
Speaker:group's team of experts have spent more than three decades
Speaker:elevating the industry by helping AEP and
Speaker:environmental consulting firms thrive. And these
Speaker:podcasts deliver invaluable management,
Speaker:industry, client, marketing, and
Speaker:HR advice directly to you free of
Speaker:charge. The Zweig letter podcasts,
Speaker:elevating the design industry one episode at a
Speaker:time. Welcome back to the
Speaker:Zweig letter podcast where we explore the latest
Speaker:insights, strategies, and challenges shaping
Speaker:the AEC industry. I'm your host, Randy Wilburn.
Speaker:And today, I have the honor of sitting down with a true
Speaker:icon in the design industry space. His name
Speaker:is Mark Zweig. Mark has spent an incredible
Speaker:forty six years in the AEC industry. He founded
Speaker:Zweig Group and continues to share his wisdom through
Speaker:the Zweig letter. He has seen it all literally from
Speaker:industry booms to economic downturns and has built a
Speaker:reputation for cutting through the noise with practical,
Speaker:no nonsense advice. In today's episode, we're
Speaker:talking about leadership in uncertain times, why
Speaker:optimism is a game changer, and why now, more
Speaker:than ever, is the time for AEC firm leaders
Speaker:to break the rules and rethink how they do business.
Speaker:If you've ever felt like your firm is stuck, if you're looking for
Speaker:ways to lead with confidence, or if you just
Speaker:need that extra push to try something bold, this
Speaker:episode is for you. Let's jump into the conversation with
Speaker:Mark Zweig. Well, after all that, I'm just grateful I didn't
Speaker:spit my water all over my computer. Right. Exactly.
Speaker:Here. We we'd be we we wouldn't be able to have this conversation
Speaker:then. Oh, man. Please. Are you kidding me? Like I say, we we
Speaker:could talk about this till the cows come home. I mean, Mark, you are you
Speaker:are now a professional podcaster. You have your own
Speaker:show, and and you do a number of things. And, of course, for the
Speaker:audience, for the uninitiated, Mark is the reason why
Speaker:I even had an opportunity in the design
Speaker:industry. And in 1997, you invited me
Speaker:to join what was at the time Zweig White and Associates, and
Speaker:I, made my way to a little hamlet in Massachusetts
Speaker:called Natick, Massachusetts and, even convinced me to move there
Speaker:with a thousand dollar bonus. I don't know if you remember that. I remember that.
Speaker:Yeah. And she used to have the bonus to get people to move to Natick.
Speaker:You were living in that old mill that was converted. I I'm,
Speaker:into apartments or condos there. Yeah. Right right right on
Speaker:right on North Main, right down the street from Corrados. Yep.
Speaker:That's right. Blue. So yes. What do you want, Maki?
Speaker:Oh, man. That's hilarious. He's always so loud. Oh my gosh.
Speaker:It's so funny. What and everybody expects you to have, like, a thick New
Speaker:England accent, but Mhmm. I just never acquired it, and neither did my
Speaker:wife. And, thankfully, my three sons don't talk about
Speaker:parking the car. So, you know Thankfully, none yeah. None of us
Speaker:were as afflicted with that. Yeah. No. It it's all good. It's all
Speaker:good. But, no, we we had some great times there in in Natick. And, you
Speaker:know, I mean, the industry has changed so much over the years.
Speaker:And, I would imagine that from your perspective,
Speaker:you've seen a lot of change. And I know you were reflecting on that
Speaker:recently just thinking about this the the design industry, but
Speaker:I'm curious to know just, you know, what keeps you
Speaker:excited about it after all these years? Because you you haven't hung up your
Speaker:cleats yet, and so you you continue to show up. And so,
Speaker:I mean, what what has endured you to this industry
Speaker:for this long a time? Well, I think there's several things.
Speaker:First off, I always like to reflect on the people that are part
Speaker:of the industry or, you know, they're smart and they're creative and they're
Speaker:talented and they're ethical, and they're doing something good that the
Speaker:society actually needs. So that's a fine group of people to
Speaker:be friends with and work with. And I think as
Speaker:fine of a group as you'll find anywhere in any
Speaker:business. That's a big part of it for me is is just
Speaker:the people. I mean, I I still have some folks that
Speaker:I could say I worked with in 1980. I can still pick up the phone
Speaker:and call today. It's amazing, really. So the
Speaker:people is a big part of it. I think the other thing, though, is just
Speaker:the fact that, you know, the industry, if we call it it
Speaker:that, which I always did, but some people bristle at that,
Speaker:has finally been discovered as a business.
Speaker:And it's very exciting to me. I mean, there are some
Speaker:people who are doing unbelievably well in this business.
Speaker:A lot of people. And now that it's been discovered
Speaker:by private equity, the sense of possibilities
Speaker:and wealth creation and entrepreneurship,
Speaker:you know, is is only increased dramatically.
Speaker:So I think that's really exciting too. Because, I mean, I like
Speaker:the design business. I like design, but it's not the only business I
Speaker:like. I like business. And I think now,
Speaker:certainly, if you look at the state of affairs forty five
Speaker:plus years ago, we were not as
Speaker:business oriented as we are. There was very little recognition
Speaker:that you could create value in one of these companies. It was
Speaker:basically strictly a professional service firm that
Speaker:was made up of professionals. And some of them got to be owners
Speaker:and joined the income club, and everybody else just toiled away
Speaker:endlessly. And I I think it's a totally different scenario now.
Speaker:It's much more positive. It's much more entrepreneurial than it
Speaker:was back then. Yeah. I mean, you know, gone are the days of the
Speaker:Dilbert comic. Right? I mean, it's it has definitely
Speaker:evolved. And and I would I because I always tell people when I started in
Speaker:the industry and and I got the opportunity in in which really came
Speaker:from you and your your relationship, but got the opportunity
Speaker:to steward the at the time was a a huge contract
Speaker:with Carter and Burgess, which was a growing engineering
Speaker:company, but they were very, you know, buttoned down. And it was a
Speaker:different it was a different age for design firms. And it has you know,
Speaker:when I walk into design firms today, and I'm like, this isn't what I don't
Speaker:feel like I did when I walked into the Carter and Burgess headquarters in Fort
Speaker:Worth back in '97. No kidding. I mean, I know it's a long time, but,
Speaker:I mean, it's it's just things have just changed so much.
Speaker:Yeah. Yeah. They have. And Carter and Burgess was in a way more
Speaker:entrepreneurial and business oriented than a lot of the other companies back
Speaker:then. Let's face it. Yeah. You know? But, yeah, it's
Speaker:it was, as you say, buttoned down. I mean, we didn't even take our coats
Speaker:off in the office. You wore a suit. You didn't wear a
Speaker:sport coat and pants back in those days, but I'll
Speaker:never forget the time when I met our buddy, our mutual friend,
Speaker:Poe Poe Sun Chen coming from our San Francisco
Speaker:office. And, I'm sure you must have heard this story. But
Speaker:Oh, yeah. Yeah. It's a good one, though. You can repeat it. We met at
Speaker:DFW Airport. I was coming from Boston. He was coming from San
Speaker:Francisco. And and I'm like, you know, I'm like, how are you gonna change your
Speaker:clothes? Because we're gonna go right over to Carter And Burgess. He goes, what do
Speaker:you mean? I go, you're not gonna wear that, are you? You had, like, a
Speaker:golf shirt on and a pair of khakis or something because that's what I was
Speaker:gonna do. I'm like, no. No. No. No. We had to stop at,
Speaker:men's warehouse and buy him a suit.
Speaker:Okay? It was really funny. Yeah. I mean He
Speaker:was he was a young guy. He didn't know the culture that Carter and Burgess
Speaker:had back then. Yeah. And things have obviously changed as we said,
Speaker:and and you you're you're right. I mean, at Carter and Burgess,
Speaker:tech was actually ahead of the curve when it came to entrepreneurship
Speaker:in the space. But I think a lot of that emanated from Jerry
Speaker:Allen and the way that he operated things. I mean, he had a vision for
Speaker:what he wanted to do, and he saw a lot of that actually come to
Speaker:pass before he unfortunately passed away at such an early age. But
Speaker:Yeah. You know, he had a tremendous impact.
Speaker:And, you know, that's kind of the the foundation of our
Speaker:conversation today, which is really looking at design
Speaker:firm leaders. Right? And how do you lead in the good times
Speaker:and in the bad times? Well, I mean, you know, you're right. He did
Speaker:have a big impact in the firm. But most of the time, there is
Speaker:somebody out there, if you're talking about an entrepreneurial firm,
Speaker:who was the one who sort of set the fire in the
Speaker:first place. It's always got it starts with one person,
Speaker:you know, and we've known some other Jerry Ellen types.
Speaker:Obviously, you and I have over the, you know, over the years.
Speaker:But I think, you know, what most important right now
Speaker:in this environment that we're in is optimism, and
Speaker:it's hard for people to maintain optimism. You know,
Speaker:there's a lot of negative signals out there. And if you
Speaker:really tune in to the media, whatever, social media,
Speaker:broadcast media, print media, negative, negative,
Speaker:negative. And yet if you're gonna be an entrepreneur and you're
Speaker:gonna accomplish anything and you're gonna grow your business in spite of
Speaker:a a lot of negative things happening, you've gotta be positive.
Speaker:So it's absolutely essential that if you're not, you're
Speaker:gonna get too fearful. You're gonna pull in everything. You're gonna
Speaker:retract. And, of course, that's the beginning of
Speaker:death. You know? Because you're you're either going up or you're
Speaker:going down. I mean, in in order to go up,
Speaker:you've gotta be a leader who believes that it is
Speaker:possible to be successful in spite of all
Speaker:the obstacles that may exist currently or could
Speaker:exist in the future. Yeah. I mean, in in kind of what I hear you
Speaker:saying is, you know, when you you you think about the whole concept of how
Speaker:leaders kinda balance realism with positivity. Right? I
Speaker:mean, it's like, you know what's right in front of you, but you also know
Speaker:that you've got to put on a good face because people
Speaker:are always gonna be looking at you at the end of the day and to
Speaker:see how you react to things. I mean, it's true. It's more than
Speaker:your I mean, you do have to put that good face on. You gotta put
Speaker:that face on for yourself. Okay?
Speaker:Not just everybody else. You gotta put it on for yourself.
Speaker:And so, you know, I think to maintain an optimistic
Speaker:attitude, you know, you do have to limit your
Speaker:intake of external news because it
Speaker:is generally negative. And that's a problem. I mean, you know, to a
Speaker:certain extent with anything I ever write or say, keep in mind, I'm
Speaker:also talking to myself. You know? It's not
Speaker:like I'm immune to these things or I don't need
Speaker:to hear these things myself. I know from my own
Speaker:experience as somebody who probably does take in too
Speaker:much media that it's not healthy. Okay?
Speaker:And so when I don't, I can recognize the
Speaker:difference in my mental state. So that's one thing. I think there
Speaker:are other things too, though. I mean, you gotta hang out with successful people who
Speaker:are still making it happen versus those who are defeated.
Speaker:And we all know the difference. I mean, you know, there
Speaker:are people out there who are our friends who are negative. Yeah.
Speaker:They're they're retracting. They're not investing. They're pulling their money out of the stock market
Speaker:or they're investing. They're pulling their money out of the stock
Speaker:market, or they're selling all their real estate, or
Speaker:they're getting out of their business, whatever. Okay?
Speaker:They're pulling in. They're contracting because they think things
Speaker:are bad. Or you can hang out with the other people that are like,
Speaker:wow. You know, there's a lot of stuff going on out there, but there's still
Speaker:a million opportunities. All these other people who can't see it, who are
Speaker:pulling in, I'm gonna go grab some of what they got right
Speaker:now. Okay? Now is my chance to
Speaker:go after what they're letting go of. Yeah. And that's I mean, there
Speaker:are you know, you talk about, like, seeing problems as opportunities,
Speaker:and they're this is the perfect time for design firm leaders
Speaker:to turn some of the challenges that that that the firm is facing
Speaker:into wins because, you know, people always say, if you can succeed
Speaker:in a down market or in just a downtime, I'm
Speaker:using air quotes now, you can succeed anytime. And
Speaker:Exactly. Yeah. And there there are plenty of opportunities. I'm curious to
Speaker:know if if you recollect the time that you've seen a
Speaker:firm that really kinda leaned into the challenges that they were facing and
Speaker:were able to kinda weather the storm and use those
Speaker:challenges as a platform to build on. Yeah. I mean, you said
Speaker:Carter and Burgess right there as an example. Yeah. You know, buying
Speaker:the distressed companies, which was a big part of the strategy at Jerry
Speaker:Allen, was a great example of there are
Speaker:other companies out there. They're not growing or they're declining or they've got
Speaker:financial problems or their lines of credit are being called or
Speaker:whatever. Their owners haven't trained any second
Speaker:tier. There's a chance to go buy those businesses and
Speaker:take them over and bring them under your umbrella and give them some new
Speaker:inspiration and give them some better leadership and better
Speaker:systems and better marketing and
Speaker:reinvigorate their people with a new sense of
Speaker:possibility. You know? That's just a great example right
Speaker:there in itself. Well and I think I would add one
Speaker:thing that one ingredient that Jerry brought to the table
Speaker:that I think is is certainly worth mentioning is the
Speaker:speed with which he responded to things. And you've always told
Speaker:famous stories about how you would get on the phone with Jerry and tell him
Speaker:about one of these, quote, unquote, distressed or firms
Speaker:that had the potential or were ripe for the picking, if you
Speaker:will. And it wasn't like Jerry to order, like, 10
Speaker:reports and pull in a bunch of business folks to look at the
Speaker:data before he made a decision. He was on a plane that that
Speaker:afternoon to go meet with the owners, and he would call you back the
Speaker:next day saying, well, we got a deal. Yeah. I know.
Speaker:That's the truth. The guy was decisive and moved quickly. And, of course, that
Speaker:takes confidence and faith in your own abilities to make
Speaker:things work. And, you know, not everybody has it. I mean, again,
Speaker:it it just goes back to this whole basic tenet of
Speaker:entrepreneurship, and you've gotta be optimistic. If you're not, if
Speaker:you always see everything that can go wrong, you won't do
Speaker:anything. I mean, it's just that simple. You will not do anything.
Speaker:You won't act because you'll be thinking of all the negative stuff
Speaker:that could happen. Okay? You know, I I want I
Speaker:wonder I wonder if maybe we have too much
Speaker:information at our disposal nowadays. Right? Because, I mean, Jerry didn't have
Speaker:access to Google and all this other stuff to parse this data
Speaker:and to think about things. I mean, he it was more instinctual.
Speaker:It was more Yes. Maybe a best practice as it was at that
Speaker:time, but it almost feels like and I know I feel this way. I don't
Speaker:know how you feel, but sometimes you feel inundated by almost too much information
Speaker:Oh, yeah. Before you you know, when you're faced with making a decision.
Speaker:I think it's a real problem. And I think analytical people
Speaker:can feel like, well, they're somehow failing if
Speaker:they don't consider every source of information or seek
Speaker:out every source of possible information that's available.
Speaker:But it ignores the time factor, and
Speaker:opportunity is, you know, is partly
Speaker:defined by how quickly you respond and timing. Timing is a
Speaker:big part of any opportunity. And if you always need more information to make a
Speaker:decision, you can miss things. You can miss out. K?
Speaker:Somebody else is gonna act faster than you. Yeah. So, I mean,
Speaker:it's just like buying real estate. You know? I mean, I think back on all
Speaker:the properties that we used to buy during the real estate
Speaker:recession. I mean, nobody wanted them. Okay? Why
Speaker:didn't they want them? Because they were scared. You know? Yeah. They thought,
Speaker:gee. I may not be able to sell this, or what if the
Speaker:economy gets even worse, or what if this
Speaker:costs more to fix up than I thought it would? They'll think of all the
Speaker:reasons why they shouldn't do it. But if you're out there
Speaker:and you're decisive and you're optimistic and you have faith in your own
Speaker:abilities to overcome anything, then you act.
Speaker:Yeah. And you create opportunities in the process. Everybody else is
Speaker:like, wow. Look at that guy. He's so lucky. Can you believe it?
Speaker:How lucky he is? Yeah. It's well, luck luck has really
Speaker:nothing to do with it. Sometimes we're we are just in the right place at
Speaker:the right time. And, you know, and I'm reminded even as you use the illustration
Speaker:of real estate and where we live in Northwest Arkansas is a
Speaker:very well, the market is kind of it's still
Speaker:strong. Houses are still relatively more
Speaker:expensive than they were just a few years ago. And I was actually just talking
Speaker:with a friend recently and, you know, he said, there's always somebody
Speaker:looking for a situation, and there's always a seller
Speaker:looking to sell outside of what we would consider the
Speaker:norm. And I I think that's a good example
Speaker:for design firm leaders to recognize that sometimes
Speaker:in the way that you typically do business, some people may not
Speaker:necessarily be expecting you to do business that way
Speaker:and that there will be opportunities for you to try different things
Speaker:and maybe even help clients out that didn't really know they
Speaker:needed help in the first place. And I'm I'm speaking specifically of, like,
Speaker:for a real estate investor. Most real estate investors go out and, you know, they
Speaker:knock on doors or send mailers or, you know, they get real
Speaker:low tech and just they keep reaching people. And my friend just told me the
Speaker:other day, he had an owner just reach out to him, and when he
Speaker:asked the owner, why did you call me? He said, well, you know, you've been
Speaker:sending me these postcards for the last six months. So I figured you
Speaker:were the person to talk to. Nobody else was, and they ended
Speaker:up doing a deal, and I think they flipped their property in fourteen days.
Speaker:But in the same way, there's as opportunities like that in the design
Speaker:industry space to work with clients that you never thought you could potentially work
Speaker:with? Yeah. I mean, a lot again, I think most things, it just comes
Speaker:down to doing the work. You know? You described your friend
Speaker:and just how long and how he's been plugging away and all the
Speaker:methods that he uses to reach out to people and consistently
Speaker:just hammers, hammers, hammers. Well, eventually, it bears fruit. It's
Speaker:the same thing out there in the design business if you wanna work with a
Speaker:client. Again, I mean, it's just not that hard. I don't know
Speaker:what else to say. Do you have an email list? Do you use it? What
Speaker:do you send people? Do you try to sell them stuff all the time, or
Speaker:do you send them information that's useful? Yeah. Do you just try to
Speaker:go see them? Do you set up lunches and breakfasts and dinners
Speaker:when you're nearby or when you're going to be in that city or
Speaker:when you have the time? Do you hook up with them on LinkedIn
Speaker:and make sure they see all your stuff in Facebook? And do
Speaker:you call them up? And once you have any kind of relationship
Speaker:at all just to check on them as humans and not try to sell them
Speaker:anything. You know? I mean, there's just, like, a million things that
Speaker:you can do that if you do all those
Speaker:activities consistently, then you're gonna break
Speaker:through. It's just that simple. The odds are in your
Speaker:favor. You know, a lot of business is really based on
Speaker:probabilities, and, you know, the law of big
Speaker:numbers bears out. It's just it's so
Speaker:true. So, yeah, there is an opportunity in the market
Speaker:to get to new clients. I mean, doing
Speaker:things that nobody else wants to do, I mean, is always a
Speaker:great way to ingratiate yourself with a new client.
Speaker:Yeah. It's always been one of my favorite tactics. Yeah. And
Speaker:speaking of which, I've been listening how meta of me,
Speaker:but I've been listening to some other podcasts. And one podcast that I listen
Speaker:to quite a bit is one called Founders where the guy goes and reads
Speaker:the biographies of great people. So think Andrew
Speaker:Carnegie, Sam Walton, Bill Gates, you name
Speaker:it, every major leader, and then he goes back. He's read biographies on the
Speaker:Rothschilds and JPMorgan, and the list goes on and on and on.
Speaker:The reason why I'm bringing it up is that one one of the the through
Speaker:lines that you see in all of these great leaders
Speaker:and and great, you know, titans of industry was
Speaker:the dogged determination to just do a couple of
Speaker:things really well and get out there and beat the bushes as often
Speaker:as possible. And and so this guy's podcast encouraged me to read
Speaker:the biography, the early biography. There have been a few others, but one on Bill
Speaker:Gates called Hard Drive. And one of the things that it
Speaker:relayed was the fact that even as a young, you
Speaker:know, dandruff laden tech guy that Bill Gates was
Speaker:in in the seventies before, you know, IT was cool and
Speaker:before computers really were a thing, he understood the principle
Speaker:of just getting out there and beating the bushes, trying to drum up
Speaker:support and create awareness for what they had to offer,
Speaker:which at the time was would eventually become Microsoft
Speaker:Basic, which was the foundational software for the modern computer. And,
Speaker:you know, he essentially almost willed this into
Speaker:existence. And Right. But what he did wasn't
Speaker:rocket science. It's been an age old tried and true
Speaker:method of just getting out there and connecting with people. We talk about
Speaker:it now like brute force. You just you just have to push yourself out there
Speaker:and make enough calls. And people some people say, oh, you don't need to do
Speaker:that anymore. But those things work. Cold emails
Speaker:work. Like, you laugh, but cold e emails work. There are a number of
Speaker:things that design firms that are struggling for business right
Speaker:now. There are a number of practices that design firms could
Speaker:employ that would get more phone calls back
Speaker:into their office, would get more inquiries, more
Speaker:opportunities to answer an RFP just by
Speaker:virtue of you picking up the phone and reaching out to folks.
Speaker:Yeah. I mean, there's a million things you can do. I mean, there's a guy
Speaker:named Rens Hayes. I don't know if you know him. He's a structural engineer in
Speaker:the Boston area. Yes. I know Rens. And, I love
Speaker:his program where he'll take any set of
Speaker:structural plans done by anyone
Speaker:and see if he can find a way to save the owner
Speaker:money in the construction of it. And if he can find so much in
Speaker:savings, then he gets a percentage of it. It's brilliant. I mean,
Speaker:just think about all the different sets of plans he gets to
Speaker:see by everybody he competes with and
Speaker:then has an opportunity to demonstrate how
Speaker:he can save the client money. Who do you think the client's gonna go to
Speaker:the next time? Him. It doesn't even cost them
Speaker:anything. Yeah. But most engineers, they wouldn't do that. Yeah. There'd
Speaker:be a million reasons why they wouldn't do it. Well, I don't you know, I
Speaker:wanna get crosswise with my brother over there. I went to school with
Speaker:we both graduated from Northeastern in 1978
Speaker:with our BSCEs, and we're in the Alpha Kappa
Speaker:Psi fraternity together. You know? Yeah.
Speaker:Whatever. You know what I mean? Yeah. Or, you know, that wouldn't be
Speaker:professional to critique someone else's. That would
Speaker:be distasteful to do that, or we don't wanna
Speaker:do anything. We just wanna get paid by the hour for for everything we do.
Speaker:We're not greedy, but we must get paid. Yeah. I'm just saying
Speaker:there's all this other crap that gets in the
Speaker:way of doing something different that brings the
Speaker:clients to you. Yeah. I mean, you RINs is is
Speaker:a great example of kinda how you can do
Speaker:something new. And I've always said that the design industry has been
Speaker:more old wineskin than new wineskin in terms of how
Speaker:they do things, but it's slowly coming around. And I was
Speaker:encouraged because recently I did a podcast interview with a couple
Speaker:of young up and coming engineers. They're all younger than us, and,
Speaker:you know, they're in their twenties. And I was really comforted
Speaker:to hear their focus and mindset of what they saw
Speaker:as leadership for the design industry and where where they wanna see the industry
Speaker:go in the future because it's gonna be incumbent upon them to take this
Speaker:industry to that next place that they take it to. And so there's a
Speaker:lot of opportunities for these young kids to mix the old with the
Speaker:new because I I think there's some things that are just never gonna go away
Speaker:in terms of marketing and in terms of getting the word out there about
Speaker:the services that you offer. Yeah. I mean, the great thing is we're
Speaker:starting in a if you wanna talk about this industry per
Speaker:se, which, you know, I hate the term
Speaker:AEC when they lump contractors in with architects and engineers.
Speaker:I really do. And some people say, well, that stands for consultants.
Speaker:No. Not really. If you go out there and look at what people are saying,
Speaker:they're saying architects, engineers, and contractors. Different business.
Speaker:Totally different. But I think if you look at, you
Speaker:know, the demand for AE services, you're
Speaker:starting from this position where there's just huge needs
Speaker:everywhere. Okay? Yeah. It's not like, you know,
Speaker:people need to be talked into using the services of
Speaker:these companies. There's just the demand far exceeds
Speaker:the supply Yeah. Whereas as far out into the future
Speaker:as we can see. That's a great place to start from
Speaker:rather than being in it some kind of an industry where you've gotta
Speaker:go out there and basically gin up demand for what it is you're selling
Speaker:because the marketplace doesn't even know they need it or want it.
Speaker:Right. I mean, think about that. Yeah. You know? Yeah. You start from
Speaker:this fundamental position of lots and lots of
Speaker:needs. Okay? If that doesn't encourage people and
Speaker:get people to be optimistic about the future of this business, hell, I
Speaker:don't know what will, Randy. No. I I agree, and you're you're absolutely right. I
Speaker:mean, I think, you know, even in down markets, there are are
Speaker:tremendous opportunities for design firms and design
Speaker:firm leaders to kinda lead the way and and, you know, make
Speaker:things happen for their firm. I wanna because we've talked about
Speaker:a couple of things, and and I wanna end on this topic. And because you've
Speaker:and you've actually already alluded to it about breaking the rules and doing
Speaker:things a little differently. We just talked about marketing and client
Speaker:outreach. You you mentioned utilizing an email list, utilizing
Speaker:your social media, staying top of mind and being relevant for
Speaker:people at all times. I would say this, and and you tell me what you
Speaker:think about this is I've always made it a point even since
Speaker:leaving Zweig Group that I stay in contact, and it's been
Speaker:almost six years now, but I stay in contact with
Speaker:most of the design firm leaders that I was working with when I
Speaker:was at Zweig Group. And so, of course, I know them. I know who their
Speaker:spouses are. I know what their kids are doing. I know a little bit about
Speaker:them. You're really good at that. Yeah. I know. You know, but I
Speaker:mean, it's and and again, it's not so much I mean, I know a lot
Speaker:of people that do that, and I use I basically use text
Speaker:messaging, and I try to reach out to five people a day just to stay
Speaker:in touch, and it's never transactional. It's always just checking
Speaker:in to see how you're doing. I mean, I reach out to you like that
Speaker:just to check-in on you, make sure that You're so good about that. That you're
Speaker:up and about. But I think it's sometimes it's those little things that you do
Speaker:like that that can make all the difference in the world. And when people are
Speaker:thinking about something and or when you do actually make a call with
Speaker:an ask, that call is much easier received than it
Speaker:is if you just call out of the blue. You know, it's funny you say
Speaker:that because I just wrote my next article that'll show up in this y
Speaker:glitter. You're gonna think I wrote it because of this conversation,
Speaker:but I wrote it yesterday. Oh, wow. And it's out of my hands.
Speaker:Okay? But it's all on this bit about relationships and how
Speaker:critical it is to do that kind of maintenance. It's
Speaker:hard though. You know, in my case, I think about the priorities,
Speaker:and I I doubt they're any different for you. But my first
Speaker:priority is my family. And then next, it's
Speaker:all the businesses that I deal with, okay, and all the business people. And
Speaker:then next is students. That's sort of
Speaker:my and, you know, I count the university as my business in a
Speaker:way. So that's my priority. Then there's a whole lot of
Speaker:other people that fall out there. Right? If anything
Speaker:suffers, it's my friends and potential friends
Speaker:and acquaintances that I just don't have the
Speaker:time to do as good of a job as I would like
Speaker:maintaining relationships with them. And I think, you know, you said
Speaker:it. I mean, the fact that you have this program where it's, like, five people
Speaker:a day I'm gonna reach out to, I think that's great. You know? I I
Speaker:could say, well, I'm gonna spend twenty minutes every day doing that, making
Speaker:calls or emails or texts to people. It's just twenty
Speaker:minutes a day. It's gonna be at the same time. It's gonna get scheduled. I'm
Speaker:just gonna always do it. Yeah. It's on my calendar. Critical.
Speaker:It's on my Google Calendar at 9AM, and I typically send out those
Speaker:text messages. And it takes me all of five minutes because, again, it's
Speaker:just, hey. Just checking in. Hope you're doing well. Boom. And that's that.
Speaker:And, of course, if conversations continue beyond just
Speaker:the the normal pleasantries and just to check-in to make sure everybody's
Speaker:okay, then you can have that. But sometimes, it's it's just,
Speaker:you know, you just want to maintain connection with
Speaker:other people. You know? So Yeah. I think that's important. There are a couple
Speaker:of other things I do wanna mention that you you've talked about
Speaker:quite a bit in terms of, like, when it comes to, like, breaking
Speaker:the rules and doing things differently, again, marketing and client outreach, you
Speaker:also talk about firm ownership, you know, the underscoring the issue
Speaker:of how you deal with traditional ownership models that
Speaker:don't quite work anymore. Yeah. Well, the old
Speaker:models were that there's gonna be so many employees for
Speaker:every partner or, you know, we're gonna
Speaker:maintain a real small group of owners, and and we're gonna
Speaker:bonus out the money so the next group can buy in.
Speaker:You know, there there's these certain things that we tended to do
Speaker:over time for many, many years in this business.
Speaker:When in reality, you know, it's not that hard
Speaker:to do something like let's open up the stock to
Speaker:anybody who wants it or a much, much wider group of people
Speaker:than, is traditional. And one of the barriers to that,
Speaker:again, goes back to the culture which says, oh, you're an
Speaker:owner. Now you've gotta be a manager. Now you've gotta be a member of the
Speaker:board of directors. No. No. No. Nobody said that.
Speaker:But there's nothing wrong with being an owner and having a chance to
Speaker:build up a little net worth, build something other
Speaker:than value in your house. Maybe you can't even afford a house
Speaker:today. Yeah. You got some other way to do it, and doing it
Speaker:in the place that you work certainly seems to make sense to
Speaker:me. And then it also helps the company maintain those
Speaker:people, keep them there because they are
Speaker:allowing them to become owners in this organization
Speaker:in a industry where the culture doesn't let everybody
Speaker:become owners. What a great opportunity to get good people.
Speaker:You know? Yeah. Well and, I mean, that's one of the reasons why a lot
Speaker:of design firms are or not a lot, but I would say there's some design
Speaker:firms that are inching towards an ESOP model where everybody
Speaker:gets a little bit of ownership. And there are obviously a lot of different ways.
Speaker:I just know that I've dealt with several firms where they're in ESOP, and
Speaker:everybody's walking around with their head held high peacocking because they have a piece of
Speaker:the pie. Yeah. I'm not as big of a fan, honestly, ESOPs as a
Speaker:lot of people. Really? No. Because it's you own
Speaker:shares in a trust. The trust actually owns the company,
Speaker:So it's not quite the same. And then, you know, the other
Speaker:thing is that it becomes so fragmented that no one wants to
Speaker:sacrifice. I was on the board of one company that was a %
Speaker:ESOP, and we bought some of the stock back and distributed it to the
Speaker:CEO and CFO and COO. So they had
Speaker:enough ownership stake to make it worth their while Yeah.
Speaker:Sacrifice to grow the company. Otherwise, it just dee can degenerate
Speaker:into I just wanna get as much money out of it as I can right
Speaker:now because my ownership is never really gonna be worth anything.
Speaker:Yeah. Such a fragmental you know, a small fragment. Well
Speaker:But there are Aesop, you know, there are ESOP zealots out there
Speaker:that think it's it's like a religion to them. And there is some evidence
Speaker:that financially, from a profitability standpoint,
Speaker:ESOP firms do perform slightly better than
Speaker:non ESOP firms. Interesting. So there, you know, there are
Speaker:benefits to it. But to me, it's not the same as selling stock and
Speaker:holding that piece of paper in your hand. That's your stock certificate.
Speaker:And Yeah. And you are now a, quote,
Speaker:real owner in the business. You know, any other thing I mean, you've seen this
Speaker:too where, like, companies like, yeah. We're gonna sell stock to those associates out
Speaker:there or whatever, but they're not gonna have voting rights.
Speaker:Like, why? So let's make them let's continue to make them second class
Speaker:citizens. You know? Well, yeah. What is
Speaker:that about? Here's some b shares of stock. Yeah. So
Speaker:Let's let's let's make them second class citizens because we're
Speaker:afraid that this five or eight or 10% of
Speaker:the company is gonna, like, overthrow the other
Speaker:95 or 90% of the company. I mean, it's ridiculous.
Speaker:Yeah. But, you know, they're fearful, and, you
Speaker:know, any kind of change is risky. Yeah. Well, any
Speaker:other one along those same lines is just the whole open book management.
Speaker:Right? When you talk about financial transparency, I remember you and
Speaker:you you were at the forefront of this charge because I and that
Speaker:was that was new to me because I had worked at another company before I
Speaker:worked at Zweig, but that company didn't share any numbers. I didn't know
Speaker:anything that was going on, but I became acutely aware
Speaker:of where we stood on a daily basis at Zwie so
Speaker:much so that it actually was motivation for me to be like,
Speaker:oh, well, hey. We're we're having some challenges here. Let's work through this. And
Speaker:there was never a time when I was mystified about
Speaker:where the company was and what we were trying to accomplish. That's
Speaker:the goal and to educate everybody in the business and
Speaker:Yeah. Build trust too because you know that it's it's
Speaker:all right there. There's nothing that's being hidden. And I think that's
Speaker:I mean, OpenBook is such a great tool. It it amazes me how many
Speaker:firms won't do it still. I mean, they got every reason in the world. The
Speaker:employees won't understand it. You know, they're gonna be afraid. They're all gonna
Speaker:see how much money I make, and they're all gonna expect me to make more.
Speaker:Or they'll say, you know, as soon as they find out what other people make,
Speaker:no. We never said we're gonna share all the salaries, dude.
Speaker:Okay? But, you know, there's just all these things out there
Speaker:that keep people from doing it, but it's a great tool.
Speaker:And it's the way you school the next generation, and it makes people
Speaker:think, you know, about how they're spending their money
Speaker:and their time. And especially if you tie that in with some kind of
Speaker:structured bonus program where you pay money out to everybody
Speaker:based on the company's performance that's measured in that open
Speaker:book report. I mean, that to me is really that's when it really
Speaker:gets interesting, and people can see a direct
Speaker:response to, you know, what they've done and and the
Speaker:numbers and how they benefit from it. That's the ideal world.
Speaker:Yeah. And that's when people really start figuring things out, and their
Speaker:actions are mimic what their desired outcomes, what
Speaker:they want them to be. Exactly. Yeah. So last
Speaker:thing that I certainly wanna mention, and this is an area where you really
Speaker:cut your teeth in this industry more than anything else, which
Speaker:is recruiting aggressively. And I know you have very, very
Speaker:strong emotions around the whole concept of recruiting,
Speaker:and I and you and I both see a lot of the same mistakes still
Speaker:being made in 2025 that were made in the nineties.
Speaker:But why hiring should be proactive and not reactive?
Speaker:Right? Why should it be a thing that we should be looking for opportunistic
Speaker:candidates, people that, you know, aren't necessarily
Speaker:looking and are where they are happy where they are? Why should we
Speaker:be why should we really be focusing more on that?
Speaker:Or we aren't necessarily looking to replace a
Speaker:vacancy that currently exists because somebody
Speaker:left. You know? I think that's also part of it. But, I mean,
Speaker:why? Because you're running a team for god's sakes.
Speaker:You're a coach of a team. If you're, you know, the
Speaker:Arkansas Razorbacks, what are you gonna say? I've got I'm
Speaker:not recruiting right now because I've got everybody in every position.
Speaker:No. You're constantly recruiting. You don't know what's gonna happen.
Speaker:A, you might find somebody better. B, somebody else
Speaker:may leave, in which case you've got a hole there.
Speaker:It's the way you upgrade. It's the way you've gotta
Speaker:constantly upgrade your team. So, yeah, I'm
Speaker:gonna be constantly recruiting, and there's never a
Speaker:time when I would say, no. I'm not interested in anybody. We'll never
Speaker:consider talking. That's ludicrous. And, obviously, the best
Speaker:people are the ones that are still employed or not looking.
Speaker:And if I'm gonna get them interested, I've really gotta do
Speaker:a sales job on them. I mean, what else can you say? I gotta sell
Speaker:them. That's okay. I'm gonna figure out what their wants and
Speaker:needs are and how we can address those better than where they
Speaker:are at present. In your estimation, you believe that most
Speaker:firms, not all, but most firms have space in their budget
Speaker:to take on an opportunistic candidate that could eventually make
Speaker:a difference for their bottom line down the road. Right? Oh god. Yes. I
Speaker:mean, it doesn't I mean, whether they have it as an add on
Speaker:or they have an opportunity to upgrade and move somebody else
Speaker:out, I do think that's the reality of the situation. Sure.
Speaker:Anybody can do that. It's a matter of are we using our resource the best
Speaker:way? I just I'll just go back to the sports team analogy.
Speaker:Yeah. You know? I've gotta constantly be trying to build my
Speaker:team and have a better team. And people get tired. People
Speaker:get sick. People think that the grass is greener somewhere else.
Speaker:People get a bad attitude. People have personal problems that get in the
Speaker:way. Yeah. People have physical problems that make them not
Speaker:perform as well. All that's just the reality of life, but
Speaker:we've gotta constantly be building and improving and
Speaker:finding people who work well together and are good
Speaker:performers in and of themselves. Yeah. In sports,
Speaker:every great general manager is always looking for the next great
Speaker:free agent to bring on board. So Exactly. Yeah.
Speaker:They're not sitting around thinking about whether they have a need or not right now.
Speaker:No. Absolutely. Absolutely. And they'll make room for greatness. Mark,
Speaker:I wanna ask you this one last closing question. If a firm
Speaker:owner listening to this episode wants to make
Speaker:one radical change this year,
Speaker:2025, we're still early in the year. The first quarter isn't even
Speaker:over over at the time of recording this. What should it be? Wow. That's
Speaker:a tough feat. I think if nothing else, they should implement open
Speaker:book management, and it's got all the relevant data, and they send out
Speaker:their monthly report along with an explanation and
Speaker:narrative. And I think the other thing they need to do I'm gonna say three
Speaker:more things, but they're all tied in with this. Continuous
Speaker:cash flow monitoring, so they're constantly doing the forecasting
Speaker:and where they're gonna be cash wise looking out into the future,
Speaker:daily cash reporting to everybody and daily
Speaker:sales reporting to everybody. Those are the things that I would be
Speaker:focusing on. So we get really tuned in to exactly
Speaker:what's happening in the business on a continuous
Speaker:basis, and no time goes by where people are
Speaker:surprised. Alright. So open book management, continuous
Speaker:cash flow monitoring, and daily cash flow monitoring is is the
Speaker:the cash flow Forecast. Forecast. Okay. Forecast. I said monitoring,
Speaker:but, really, it's forecasting. Forecasting. Okay. I gotcha. Yeah.
Speaker:And daily cash reporting and daily sales reporting. And daily
Speaker:sales. Yeah. It all helps. What I do. I get the gauges
Speaker:on the machine so we know what the heck's really going on. And it's really
Speaker:not that hard to monitor. Once you set it up, and I know it's just
Speaker:you know, a lot of times, it's just plugging the numbers, but there's nowhere to
Speaker:hide if you do that. I think everything is out in the open, and at
Speaker:that point, you start to see where your warts are if you have any. Yeah.
Speaker:Exactly. Yeah. You really get tuned into the situation. I say
Speaker:this. I was surprised. I was I work with a a
Speaker:company, and they've got some financial
Speaker:issues where their bank is telling them to go find a new bank.
Speaker:Okay? And in order to find that new bank, the first
Speaker:step is they've gotta reduce their current line of credit by a
Speaker:million dollars by a certain date and time. And it was
Speaker:interesting to me that in spite of that, you know,
Speaker:the management of the firm gets no daily cash
Speaker:reporting whatsoever. Nothing. Okay? Blew
Speaker:me away. Like, you're under the gun like this. You
Speaker:gotta reduce your line of credit by a million dollars, and
Speaker:your managers don't see every day
Speaker:how much cash has gone in, how much cash has gone out, and what that
Speaker:line of credit balance is. That's like the definition of flying
Speaker:blind. Yeah. Exactly. It just freaking blew
Speaker:me away. Okay? Oh, man. It
Speaker:just absolutely blew me away. Well, you know, that's that's
Speaker:you know what that's called? That's called business security for firms like
Speaker:Zweig Group and others that consult these firms because,
Speaker:hopefully, at some point in time, somebody in control
Speaker:has a here's a voice of reason that helps
Speaker:them to right the wrongs that they have implemented. So, you know
Speaker:Yeah. That's not as we've said many times probably on
Speaker:this podcast before, it's like shooting fish in a barrel,
Speaker:finding enough improvements It is. It is
Speaker:indeed. Yeah. In this in this business and in these firms.
Speaker:So Man, that's great. Well, listen, Mark, thank you so much for
Speaker:joining us as always. Your insights are extremely valuable.
Speaker:We really appreciate you, and I I I wanna remind our listeners that they can
Speaker:always catch your articles every Monday in the Zweig
Speaker:letter newsletter, which is one of the longest running newsletters in the design
Speaker:industry. And I always say that even if it isn't because it seems like it
Speaker:is. So It is. I I might as well say that
Speaker:1992 to today. So it's been running for a long
Speaker:time. So thank you so much, Mark. We really appreciate you,
Speaker:man. Thanks, Randy. It's always good to hang out with you. I appreciate you,
Speaker:my friend. Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, folks, that's another episode of
Speaker:the Zweig Letter Podcast. To learn more about one of the oldest
Speaker:newsletters in the design industry, visit zweiggroup.com.
Speaker:You can read articles online, listen to this podcast, and sign up
Speaker:for a free subscription to the newsletter and have it delivered right into
Speaker:your email inbox every Monday morning. Sign up today. For more
Speaker:information about Zweig Group's advisory services or any
Speaker:Zweig Group publications, visit zweiggroup.com. You
Speaker:can subscribe to the Zweig Letter podcast wherever you listen to it,
Speaker:and please consider rating and reviewing us on Apple Podcasts.
Speaker:I'm your host, Randy Wilburn, and we'll see you back here soon.
Speaker:Peace. Thanks for tuning in to the Zweig Litter
Speaker:podcast. We hope that you can be part of elevating the
Speaker:industry and that you can apply our advice and
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