Gary Ware needs curiosity, exploration and imagination in his life. How can we bring these qualities into our day to day life?

Gary grew up as the class clown and got into a lot of mischief. As he got older and became an adult he suppressed his playful side. His goals became the standard that society set; go to university and get a good job. But he felt unfulfilled.

He unintentionally rediscovered his playful side from an improv class where he played silly games to be a better storyteller. 

Through co-running his own digital marketing agency he involved play in everything. Until he was sidelined by his business partner who didn’t buy into this methodology. 

From this setback he started on the path of facilitation and bringing playful methods to others. He is now a Strategic Play Consultant and created his company, Breakthrough Play.

Things to consider

• The overarching meaning of play is to do something for the sake of it - we’re wired for play
• Adults think play is something is frivolous or what kids do and feel guilty for feeling playful
• Don’t judge yourself when indulging in play 
• How to sell play to corporate clients by not telling them about play
• Rebel against the status quo - play is the answer, not more hard work

Links

• Gary Ware, LinkedIn
• Breakthrough Play
• Dr Stewart Brown, Play
• Gary Ware, Playful Rebellion: Maximize Workplace Success Through The Power of Play

Get in touch!

Make Work Play

Playfilled

Hello.

Welcome to the show.

I'm Zuki Stewart from playfield, a startup helping organizations to enable

everyone to rediscover their creativity through playful wonder and serendipity.

And I'm Lucy Taylor from Make Work, play an organization on

a mission to use the power of play to unlock potential and possibility.

Together we are.

Why Playworks?

The podcast that speaks to people radically reshaping work as play.

In this episode, I'll be speaking to Gary Ware.

The founder of Breakthrough Play, Gary is a corporate facilitator, keynote speaker,

certified coach, and author of the book, playful Rebellion, maximize Workplace

Success through the Power of Play.

Gary has over 14 years experience in the corporate world

holding various leadership positions and being a multifaceted individual.

He also comes with nearly a decade of experience as a

performer in improv theater.

After experiencing burnout in his pursuit for success

and happiness, he realized that what was missing was spoiler play.

Committing to a life of play is what led Gary to discover

his passion for facilitating.

Gary uses the power of applied improvisation and other playful methods

to assist people in unlocking creativity, confidence, and better communi.

Gary was recently featured as one of the top hundred

HR influencers of 2021 by the engaged Lee HR software platform.

When he isn't leading workshops or speaking, you can find him learning

magic or often an adventure with his wife Courtney and his sons Garrett and Cameron.

In this episode, we discuss leaning into your inner joker, the power

of experience over words and how adding a little bit of play makes anything.

Oh, I'm so excited this is happening at last.

It's been a long time coming this conversation, so thank

you so much for bearing with me and for giving me some time.

My afternoon, your morning Trans-Atlantic.

So it's great to have you

here.

Thank you so much for having me.

I, I am so excited to dive deep.

It's gonna be a lot of fun.

So let's kick off.

What does the word play mean to.

Wow.

Wow.

All right.

We're, we're starting with the, the big ones.

Uh, play has multiple meetings to me.

Uh, you know, the overarching meeting is to do something, um, for the sake of

and to, to dive whatever that activity is and be immersed in the process.

Um, You know, at the end of the day, enjoy you're So that, that's what

play means to me, um, as umbrella

the, just doing it for the sake of it.

And do you find that easy with practice?

Because I think that's, that's difficult to do for a lot of people.

Do you find it easier the more engaged you are in this

playfulness?

Well, see, this is the thing.

We are wired for play.

So like when, when the conditions are right.

We can dive into it.

However, getting to that state where we could be playful and, and

really get into that, um, into that level of focus can be challenging

due to so many different things.

You know, just our understanding of play, you know, our society conditioned us, um,

as adults to think that play is something.

Is frivolous or, or what kids do.

Um, and again, you know, depending on the context, we might feel guilty

for feeling playful in the moment.

Um, you know.

Mm-hmm.

especially, you know, thinking of work, uh, you know, when we think we

have to be so serious and rigid where.

a again, if we really understand, like I said, the umbrella term of play,

it just means to just do something for the sake of doing it, you know,

not worried about the the outcome.

And

what's your earliest memory of play?

If we can go way back?

Uh, for me, I do remember.

When I was about three or four, um, my dad was in the armed

service in the, in the navy, here in the us and we were in Hawaii.

And I do remember, you know, uh, exploring.

and, you know, just being out and about.

Um, I, I was a very, I still am very curious kid, , and, uh, I, I

tend to get into a lot of mischief, just being curious about stuff.

And so I, I remember having adventures, um, and it's so funny because I

was younger than my son is now, and my mom just let me just go out

of the house and I'm at this park that is near our house and she.

All right, cool.

Like it, it's all good.

Be home soon, . Yeah,

I completely agree.

And when you think back to that three, four year old in Hawaii

being curious, do you, do you feel that younger self show up today?

You said, I'm still a curious kid, right.

So do you still feel that connection with the younger self and what play

meant to him and how it shows up

in you?

. Yes, I do.

And, and I'm, I'm so glad that you bring this up because like in the

work that I do, that is some of the things that can help people really

unlock that spirit of plays is think about when you were younger, how

did you play, how did you show up?

And how can you like unlock that now?

And so as I mentioned, I was very curious kid.

Uh, I got into a bit of mischief just because I was

like, Ooh, what does this do?

And then I end up breaking something, or whatever the case may be.

You know, I over time learned that, Ooh, maybe that's not a good thing.

Um, however, you know, through hours and hours of therapy and,

and, and interventions and stuff like that, as an adult, I've learned

to realize that, um, those are the things that I need as an adult.

I need curiosity.

I need imagination.

I need exploration.

You know, that's what I like to call, uh, being childlike.

You know, how can we.

, uh, bring these qualities into our day-to-day.

And yes, I've, um, uh, Dr.

Stewart Brown who wrote the book play, talked about different play personalities.

Mm-hmm.

and one of the big ones for me is the Joker.

Um, I was all about playing practical jokes and, and whatnot,

um, and being very jovial.

And again, yeah, it did get me into trouble.

And so again, as kids, sometimes we make these sort of, Sort of

overarching statements of like, Ooh, this is not a good thing.

You know, instead of like com compartmentalizing, you

know, these situations mm-hmm.

And so, yeah.

Uh, like as an adult I did find myself like, maybe I shouldn't,

you know, I, I should hide that.

Uh, but I do find that when I.

am allowing myself to express that, uh, I am feeling more whole.

Mm-hmm.

and, um, you know, more fulfilled.

Mm-hmm.

, I

completely, completely agree.

And what you're saying there makes me think of my younger self and

kind of how she liked to play.

And one of my earlie memories of play is, Um, I lived when I was younger, kind

of on a mountainside in Portugal, um, kind of off the grid, no running water.

Uh, you know, we had windmills for power, that kind of thing.

Very, um, unorthodox.

And I also, just to add to that funky mix, I didn't go to school.

I was home educated and so I had a lot of time on my hands in the day

cause I wasn't in, you know, class back to back as most children were.

And one of my earnest memories is, It's not sneaking.

Cause I wasn't, not allowed, but kind of going down the

track in this, in this mountain.

And I had my discman, do you remember Discmans?

You know that's what they're called after.

After the cassette, the Walkman, you had the Discman and I

thought I was just Thies knees.

I was like, yo, check out my Walkman.

My discman, and get my headphones.

And I would take a little selection of CDs down this hill, down this track.

No one around like the odd shepherd perhaps like yonder in the distance.

And I put on my headphones and I would sing to an to an imaginary.

You know, spice Girls, whatever I could have.

And I would spend hours just singing to myself and my imaginary

audience and making dance routines.

And, and I think now, you know, I was never gonna be a singer that

I wasn't doing that cause I was practicing something I was good at

and I wanted to do when I was older.

Right.

It wa there was no end to that.

I just loved the feeling like in my throat of singing.

And then, you know, I grew up and when I was at university I did a bit

of kind of dance and theater, but, you know, you, you, you leave that

behind, you get a big grown up job and kind of, you don't have time.

Just last year, my child after school and they have a staff parent choir, and I was

like nose against the window pressed up like, let me in, when are you starting?

And I began singing in the choir with other adults and there's something

just deep about singing with, with other people, like quite primal.

And you know, you sing with strangers, there's lots of people I don't know,

and we're getting them notes wrong and we're trying to harmonize and

we're, you know, you've gotta get into a rhythm together and you're

strangers and there's something.

I know primal about it.

, you know, the days I, some days I'm, you know, I'm stressed out

at work and I think, my gosh, how indulgent am I going with this choir?

Like, what am I, you know, I'm not taking, taking care of my kids.

I'm not working, as you said, the guilt around why am I indulging myself in this?

And I'll go off for an hour there and I'll just come at a different person.

That feeling of wholeness and fulfillment you talked about, and it's just like

something very deep has been soothed.

And it's funny that that's the linkage I feel with.

You know, my small six year old child self who loved that too, and I, yeah.

I love that linkage.

So beautiful.

Thank you so much for sharing that story.

So back to back to our present day, fully grown

up responsible selves, when did you most recently feel playful?

Uh, you would think that I would say, oh, when engaging with my kids.

Yeah.

I, so I have a five year old and a five month old, and, Lately just because

of the holidays and stuff like that.

And sometimes I feel guilty because, you know, my son wants to play and I'm engaged

in play, but I'm, I'm having two hats on.

I'm like having a parent hat on and mm-hmm.

and I'm trying to be playful and it, it doesn't feel as playful as I would like.

And maybe because I'm a practitioner of this, maybe I'm judging myself a bit more.

But again, if Judge judgment's in there, You know, it's

not as playful as it can be.

However, uh, one of the things, um, I discovered over the last 10

years is, um, improvisation, you know, theatrical improvisation.

And I perform at a theater near my house.

Um, and we've had a hiatus because of the holidays.

And we had, uh, a performance, um, two weeks ago.

And it was, uh, one of those performances where we were.

in sync and it was just so much fun.

Yeah.

And it was like much needed after like, you know, again, a stressful holiday

season to just let loose and just Yeah.

Be spontaneous.

Um, you know, You know, with my fellow improvisers and we left like feeling like,

man, that was a, that was a good show.

That was, that was awesome.

So that was, yeah, one of the last times, like, and it wasn't that long ago.

Yeah.

Where I felt really playful.

I love that idea of being in sync and I guess that's nice.

Um, linking to what I wanted to ask you next, which was

really about your journey to.

Playfulness and especially this idea of playful working, and I think that

started with a, with an improv experience.

So tell us more about the journey to today.

Yeah,

so, uh, as I mentioned, you know, growing up I was, you know, that

class clowned, um, very curious, um, you know, got into a lot of mischief.

Um, and then as I got older, it was one of those things where I would suppress that.

I was like, oh, that's not something that adults do.

You know, my end goal at just like everyone's end goal was to,

to be happy and to be successful.

And those things on my list, you know, after, you know, years of like reflection,

you know, weren't necessarily things that I put on there, you know, it was

things that I thought I needed to do to be happy, to be successful, you

know, go to university, you know, get a good job and, and all these things.

And I found myself in a career that on paper I should be

ecstatic about, you know?

Mm-hmm.

, it was, you know, I went to school for this and, and I, I'm rising up the ranks.

I'm, I'm, you know, by society's terms, I, I'm successful.

Yeah.

However, I was feeling a bit unfulfilled, you know, burnt out.

Quite frequently, and it's really funny that I think about this.

Um, the thing that helped me rediscover my play was an

improv class, as you mentioned.

However, that wasn't my intention on signing up for the class.

It wasn't like, Hey, I think this is gonna be fun and, and let me do this is.

It was to become a better public speaker.

Okay.

You know, it was for op, like self optimization

I'm glad I took a class.

I, I'm, I'm so glad I did because going into that class, um, it was a January

and there was, uh, you know, about, you know, 14, 15 people just like myself.

And for two hours we, we.

and we did these silly games that are designed to help people think better on

their feet to be a better storyteller.

Uh, but it felt like play, it felt like recess, and I was just

blown open, like, what was this?

Uh, and I was hooked.

And like from day one I was hooked.

I was like, this is the most fun thing.

Um, I don't even care if it helps me with, with public speaking.

I love it.

Um, and then, I loved it so much that I would bring the activities

that we would do in class to my team.

You know, we would play, you know, these silly storytelling games

where we're, you know, creating co-creating stories one word at a time.

I'll bring it to my team.

I'm like, Hey, we should play this again.

The, at that point, the, it wasn't about like, Hey, you know, I'm

trying to make us more cohesive.

Um, I just thought it was fun.

And, and this is one of the cool things about play.

You know, it, it's inherently enjoyable and, and you want to,

you know, you wanna share it.

Um, and so, but one of the cool things that I discovered by accident,

again, you know, everything.

I feel like it's these like, uh, with Hanson Gretto, you know how

like they put the breadcrumbs down to help them get back home?

I felt like that's what I was doing.

I was following these, these breadcrumbs.

The first breadcrumb was an improv class.

Yeah.

And then, I was just following that sort of impulse of like,

oh, I should share this.

And so over time we did, um, you know, become even more cohesive.

You know, we trust each other a lot more.

We had higher levels of psychological safety.

Um, you know, I would be lying if I was saying that was my intention all along.

Uh, that's something that I discovered, like after the fact looking

back I'm like, oh yeah, because.

We allowed ourselves to be playful.

You know, we brought this, these games into the workplace.

And so that was the catalyst, that was the thing.

And then I was curious.

I was like, alright, if Improv did this, what else?

And I was, I was, you know, very curious about the topic

of play in play for adults.

And then that let me on this path.

Now the interesting thing is this was all in service of my team,

you know, as a, uh, people leader.

I didn't think that I.

, you know, be where I am now.

Mm-hmm.

, you know, I, again, I was on that path of like, no, I, you know, I have this career.

Um, and then, so I did all the things I thought you should do, you

know, as a career, um, especially in marketing and advertising mm-hmm.

. And that took me to running my own, um, co-running my

own digital marketing agency.

I was, uh, one of three partners, um, in this, uh, in this venture.

In the beginning.

Yeah, it was fun.

It was, everything was play.

I was bringing all these things that I was learning.

It gave me a sandbox to practice these things and I, you know, just for fun, I.

Have these little mini meetup groups.

I called them recess, where, um, you know, I would help, you know,

other adults, you know, we would do these very playful things.

Um, and, you know, as a way to just help people unwind and connect.

And it was after I.

Got back from this retreat that I co-facilitated in Nicaragua where

my business partner in the middle of like, it was, I was blindsided.

He basically said, um, we should go our separate ways.

And, and he sort of just had my buyout check and I was just floored.

I was like, What?

Like . Oh yeah.

And then two.

So get this, like when it rains, it pours.

Mm-hmm.

. So two hours after that, um, my landlord calls and tells me and my wife that he has

to sell the house that we've been renting.

So my son, uh, my.

ELDs is, is one at the time about to be one.

And my wife isn't working, is, you know, I'm the, the sole

breadwinner of the family.

And I went from having, uh, a job that supported me in doing these fun

endeavors to like, like, be like, what am I gonna do with my life?

And it was my, my wife's support that she like, sort of nudged me.

She like, you know this, you know, she didn't even know what to call at the time.

Like, this stuff that you're doing with Play , you know, seems very enjoyable.

Couldn't you get paid for doing that instead, you know, instead

of like going to go find another, you know, agency job, you know?

Mm-hmm.

. Um, because there was a little bit of shame, you know, where I'm like, oh,

now I have to go find a job and tell people that this thing didn't work out.

And, and so anyhoo, uh, long story short, that put me on the path of facilitation

and bringing, um, playful methods mm-hmm.

outside of the team that I was working on to others to help them have the

same sort of impact that it had on me.

. Tzuki Stewart: Amazing.

And what would you say has been the biggest surprise in

that journey for you in working

with play?

that it is a journey.

You know?

That, that it, um, that.

There is so much to learn.

So at first, when I first got on this, um, I think I was very naive and I think,

and I'm glad that I was, because if I would've known the things that I knew now,

I might not have gone on this journey.

. I might have just took the easy route and said, no, just go find another job.

Uh, because, um, I thought that, oh, this is gonna be a no-brainer.

I'm going, I'm gonna tell like it.

I'm like, oh, hey, there's this thing called play you probably

didn't even know about it.

Uh, there's also this thing called improv.

It can help your team.

Like I thought it would just be that easy to just tell people about it.

I'm like, you probably didn't know about this, but hey, here's this

thing that's gonna help your team.

And I was met with so much resistance.

Uh, people were like, that sounds nice and.

No, um, we'll, we'll, we'll get back to you on that.

Uh, I'm like, no, no, you, you, you don't get it.

It is going to like, change everything.

Your team is gonna be, uh, you know, so engaged.

It's gonna reduce turnover, it's gonna do, and they're like, mm-hmm.

Okay.

I I hear you.

And, uh, you want me to pay you to do what with my team?

So I, I had to learn, uh, you know, the, the right way to position this.

Um, You know, you might have heard the phrase, uh, sell people, um, what they

ask for, give them what they need.

So over time I realized, I'm like, oh, all right.

This is a positioning thing.

Um, you know, and then I was like, I am a trainer.

I am a corporate trainer and facilitator, and I help you

with soft skills and blah, blah.

And then they were like, oh, okay, great.

Okay.

And then I would bring them playful methods and then, you know, it's

like, all right, it's all good.

It's like the play

Trojan Horse.

Yes.

So you, you bring it in, then you're like, oh, your place will just come

out and you're like, Hey guys, right?

Yeah.

I love it.

I love it.

And, and yeah, being on a very, well, I'm on a very similar journey, I

think with playful to me and my, my co-founder, and people are like, God,

I love what you're talking about.

It's like, okay, invest in it then like, Ooh, . Um, but

yeah, it's, it's gonna happen.

It's gonna happen.

, the trickle will turn into a

well to that, to that point, it's very experiential, so mm-hmm.

people who have experienced it, and then they get it, they will

go and tell people like, all right, this is , this play thing.

You, you need to talk to Gary.

But I still get the same thing, so I, I know to like bring the Trojan

horse, but they're like, What did you do for the, like, I, we want

what they, what they're having

and, and I'm kind of getting a sense in this conversation

that sometimes it's hard to articulate exactly what the magic is

and especially for other people to articulate it to someone else because,

you know, word of mouth referrals, you know, that's obviously golden

for a new started for a new business.

People want to do that when they've been impressed, but it's sometimes

difficult to really, they're like, ah, how do I describe him

to my friend working in so-and-so?

It's, it's kind of hard to articulate, isn't it?

I get a sense.

It's been the same for you.

It's so experiential, as you say.

So in September last year, you published your book Play for

Rebellion, maximized Workplace Success through the Power of Play.

So tell me, tell me more about that and, and why you think we need a play

for rebellion.

So, to the point that we were talking about, , you know how play is something

that, um, spices everything up.

However, as adults, uh, you know, we have become allergic to it.

You know, we think it's something that just kids do.

Um, I was looking at all of the challenges that, uh, you know,

professionals and, and companies are facing, uh, you know, with you.

Again, you know, being a successful company, you know, keeping

employees and, and creating an environment where people can thrive.

And I'm like, play is the answer.

However, most people are like, uh, I don't know.

You know, I think more hard work is the answer . Cause we,

I think doing more faster is the answer actually.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Um, and I'm like, play will get you there.

You're like, Hmm, are you sure?

So, uh, that's where the rebellion comes in.

Uh, we need to rebel against the status quo, re rebel against our

ingrained thinking, using play as a way so that we can be successful

because yeah, just right out the gate, Just because the conditioning,

we're just going to not wanna do it.

I know, I know all of these things firsthand.

I've, I've studied them, I read them, and I still get that allergic

reaction, you know, that resistance.

And so, you know, we need, we need to rebel playfully, um, you

know, as a way so that we can be successful at work, uh, because.

, you know, work and play are not mutually exclusive.

You know, we, you can't just do one and then, you know, do the other.

My dad used to say, Hey, Gary, you know, do your work.

Then you can play.

And as a kid, you know, and trust me as a, you know, having a five

year old, that is very helpful.

In those situations.

It can be very motivating.

However, as an adult, Your to-do list is never done, so you will never

play if that is your way of thinking.

And so we need to rebel so that we can bring our true selves to work.

Um, and so, so that is, you know why the book is called Playful Rebellion?

Uh, reason why I wrote the book is that, um, I would lead these playful

challenges where I would help people create habits, you know, um, using

play and then a number of people.

Hey, um, do you have a guide, like a playbook?

You know, because it's like when you go to the gym, you can go to the

gym one or two times, but that's not going to give you that six pack abs

that you want for the summer.

.Yeah.

You have to be consistent.

And so I'm like, all right.

And so that was one of the reasons why I said, all right,

I will, I will write this book.

Um, even though I didn't want to, uh, I, and, and it's not that I didn't wanna

share this, it's just that I didn't necessarily consider myself an author.

Um, you know, thinking about like, creating playful environments,

sitting down and writing did not seem very playful to me.

Matter of fact, it, uh, it was something that it reminded me of, like when

I was in school and having to write papers and essays and, um, you know,

If you really knew me, you would know that I'm dyslexic and I have adhd.

So to sit down and focus and to write something, uh, even though I'm excited

about it, can be challenging . So, um, I, uh, followed my own advice

and I created a playful way to write the book so that I can, um, you

know, put this out into the world.

What was that playful way?

so I like talking and I like telling stories and so,

um, . I worked with an editor that, uh, we had an a one hour zoom

meeting every week for nine months.

And, um, instead of writing the chapters, I would talk the chapters.

Um, and because they weren't familiar with the subject matter, it was perfect

because they would ask me clarifying questions, and it was all via Zoom.

It was all recorded, and then we took.

Video recording and transcribed it, and then that became the rough draft

Wow.

Amazing.

And you used the word just now, allergic.

You know, we are kind of a bit of allergic to this idea of play and,

and, and that resonates with me, I think of a lot of environments.

In my working life where it feels, you know, a certain meeting or a

certain workshop and you think, gosh, play feels unwelcome here.

You know, if I were to suggest something playfully i'd, they'd

be like, oh, a lot of you know it.

It can feel like a very not of hostile environment, but it just feels

unwelcome and that sense of analogy.

So how do you overcome that kind of allergic reaction with your

work with Breakthrough Player, your

company?

Yeah.

It, it, it starts by meeting people where they are, you know, realizing

that, um, you know, they may, um, you know, they may not be used to that sort

of, um, interaction experience and then starting slow, but trusting the process,

knowing that we are wired for play.

It is there deep down inside and creating an environment.

where over time we can sort of ramp it up a little bit and know that, you know,

when people are invited and they feel safe, they will, they will play mm-hmm.

. Tzuki Stewart: Mm-hmm.

to trust the process.

And then I think also it's a, it's that feeling of.

players gonna look and feel different for each of us, you know?

So what you find play for is, you talked about play personalities

earlier in our conversation.

You know, the joker shows up in you.

And for other people, that's like the opposite of how they play.

And it's just being generous and diverse and how you kind of understand

people's own way of play and, and what it, what it means to them.

And I guess, When I think about my work with Play Field and, you know, using

playful methods with clients and, and also my other work, which is in kind

of change and transformation projects more widely, I guess I, I completely

have seen and felt firsthand the power of play and I, and I wanna like

spread it like all does wherever I go.

But that's that point of kind of where does it feel appropriate

and welcome to introduce it.

And I guess to play devil's advocate, do you think.

, are we being unrealistic to try and bring play and work together?

Yes, it is an unreal, it, it's a, it's a tall order to fill.

However, I feel like it's necessary to, to get us to this next level

where we can be sustainable.

Mm-hmm.

, because the way that we're working now is not working . Mm.

to have people work so much and be under so much stress that

their body just shuts down.

You know, our bodies aren't used to dealing with that this much stress.

Mm-hmm.

, you know, you're, you're used to having a stressor, you know,

whatever it is, dealing with it.

All right, cool.

You know, and moving on, you know, our brains are a bit prehistoric in

that, however, , the daily stress of life is just keeping our brain in that

fight, flight or freeze mentality.

Mm-hmm.

. And we need something else.

And this is, in my opinion, um, you know, I, I, I want someone to prove me wrong.

Like, I feel like play is that thing that is going to, uh, alleviate stress now.

It's not, it's, it's something like that needs to be sort of sprinkled in.

You know, like if you have too much salt in your soup, like it,

it's, it's not gonna taste right.

So, yeah.

You know, there's a time and place for it.

The amount that you add, you know, depends on the situation and it feels like

how to move beyond this kind of play as a quick fix.

You know, everyone's keen for it for an afternoon and that's great.

Right.

That can be your entry point.

That's your entry truck, but Yep.

But it's the, the, the evolution into part of the sustainable picture of

how we work and how we're successful.

That's, that's yet to come.

I think that's the work, yeah.

Ahead of us.

Cool.

I'm keeping on time.

I know you've got some amazing work to deliver later on today, so I am

gonna keep us, keep us at time, but let's, let's talk now about some

really kind of practical examples.

So yes, I'd love to hear about, okay, maybe you've got, if you

think of your last three clients or maybe who you're going to see

today or think of some clients and tell us why did they bring you in?

What were they trying to achieve?

And yes, obviously as everyone asks, what was the impact?

All right.

Yes.

And this is what I call play plus where play is, in my opinion,

uh, the cheat code for success.

Um, you know, you add play to anything and it makes it even better.

Um, like for example, like my mom wanted me to eat vegetables.

Uh, and as a kid, you know, I didn't want to eat vegetables.

She added vegetables to Mackay and cheese, . Stacy, I eat vegetables.

I don't know if that is the best parenting thing, but again, having a young child

now, I'm like, do what you gotta do.

So, So thinking about some of the last clients I had, they had a very specific

challenge and I brought a playful method as a way to help them achieve that.

So one was, uh, you know, , uh, helping, uh, a team be better storytellers,

um, you know, be better presenting.

Uh, if you look at the data, I know here in the US uh, public speaking

is the second biggest fear to death.

Oh my goodness.

Death, public speaking and spiders

Okay.

However, we need to communicate, right?

We need to communicate it.

You know, if we can't communicate, you know, how can we progress?

So, um, they brought me in, uh, to help them develop, uh, better storytelling

skills, better public speaking skills, demystified public speaking, and I

did that through playful methods.

So instead of like putting people on the spot knowing that they're going to

be terrified, and it's like, all right.

Give me your speech and then you know that's not gonna help them get better.

Uh, what we did, we played games and activities that allowed them to practice

the different, um, nuances of public speaking in a fun and playful environment.

And as a result, they were able to get those reps in and

feel more comfortable public.

. Um, and so, um, you know, one of the games that you know, that I did, uh,

was, um, so we, we did a few things.

One, um, I I realized that people don't know time.

You know, time is one of those things that is very, uh, very finicky.

Like, you know, like this, this feels like man time's going by so much fun.

We're, we're, you know, so fast.

It feels like time is going by so fast.

We're having a lot of fun.

However, if you're in another situation, the same amount of time can.

Like hours . And so we did this really fun activity where I had them, uh,

close their eyes and I was the only one who knew how much time really passed.

And I said, we're gonna sit here in silence.

And when you think a minute is up, I want you to stand up.

. And so they all sat there and oh my gosh, it was so funny.

Um, you know where some people stood up?

I kid you not, after 15 seconds, 15 seconds.

And they like, it's been a minute.

And like they stand up and then, and so what I did as a way to

really, uh, emphasize my point, um, you know, they were able to stand

up, they could open their eyes.

Um, I.

Like, stop the timer.

Exactly.

After a minute.

I stopped it after two minutes.

But the, the whole point is to just let them know like, Hey,

you know, our internal clocks, depending on the situation is flawed.

You know, we can't always judge our internal emotions on what's going on.

And, you know, then we do a debrief, or what does this have

to do with public speaking?

Well, with public speaking, we know that pauses are impactful.

. However, when you're in a moment when you're nervous, you are

going to think that that pause, that, you know, three second pause

is gonna feel like an eternity.

So guess what?

Your brain is off.

So again, that that little example, that playful example,

allowed them to experience that.

Yeah, you're right.

You know, whereas I'm like, all right, we're gonna practice.

So it was still awkward.

However, it was playful and then it had a point again, that Trojan horse,

you know, and then we did, you know, other things where, uh, we did some

really fun storytelling things where they did a mashup where they told

stories about what they did through the lens of what they like to do.

Mm-hmm.

as a way to realize that when we talk about things that are fun, , we

naturally are more, um, outgoing.

Our, our tone's better.

You know, we did all these things and then by the end of it they, you

know, they actually got up and did some of their talks and they were.

Way better.

They were way better than, you know.

Again, you know, I could have gone in and like, all right, we're

gonna talk about public speaking.

Did you know that your actual words is only 3%?

You know, all this other stuff.

Yeah, it's useful information, but it's better if they experience it

and it's better if they experience it in a playful way, because they

will be more likely to re retain that information when the stakes are.

So that is just one thing.

Another, so again, I call it play plus.

So if you add, you know, um, you know, play to like public speaking, you're

gonna be an, uh, entertaining presenter.

Um, you know, people often bring me in, um, to help them be

more creative, more innovative.

Um, again, that's where.

Improv thinking comes in.

Um, and so, you know, we'll do a workshop where we would talk about the, you

know, the basics of improv, like Yes.

And better listing and things like that.

Mm-hmm.

. And we do activities and then, you know, then we put them in real life

situations where they need to brainstorm, where they need to be innovative,

and they find that they are better.

And so, uh, one last thing that you know, I started doing, um, especially

because of the pandemic, is just helping people connect , you know,

creating a playful environment where people can actually have conversations,

um, and then they find that they actually know each other a bit better.

So again, Uh, the opportunities are endless.

That's why we need more people doing this work, uh, so that we can help

people, um, you know, really just be their best versions of themselves.

And on top of that, when they.

Like one of the things I love to do is afterwards I'm like, this was fun, right?

You enjoyed yourself.

Imagine if you created an environment where on a day-to-day basis you add,

you sprinkle in some play, you know, and you created a playful environment.

You know what?

That would happen like once I'm gone, so yeah.

I love the, the more I can hear about, you know,

tangible, concrete, what did you do?

Why, you know, why were you brought in, what happened?

It's just, I think it's so helpful back to that articulation point as to,

you know, what is the power of this in language and, and challenges that, that

leaders might be kind of experiencing.

So, really helpful.

Thank you.

And we are drawing to the end of our time together, unfortunately.

So I'll, I'll kind of round off with, um, again, keeping our kind of feet on the.

On the ground and, and thinking playfully and practically, do you have

a playful practice that you use in your work or you use other people that

our listener could try themselves?

Yes.

So, uh, like I said, play can, uh, be spiced into any sort of training

and it can make things a lot better.

. And on top of that, if you want to just spice up your sort of day to day,

um, you know, I call it the playful practice and it's very, very simple.

I like to think of inflection points throughout the day, uh, that could use

a bit of play and think about what, what sort of state do you need to be in, you

know, what sort of energy state do you need to be in, and what sort of playful

thing could you do to get you into that?

So again, the umbrella of play is doing something, you know, just for

the sake of doing it, that is going to like, make you feel more relaxed and

more, you know, sort of in the zone.

Um, like for example, uh, some very specific things is that

we need to take more breaks.

Let's just be honest.

We, we have a tendency to feel like we just need to keep working.

There is research that shows that humans we're bad at predicting our

level of energy, uh, and that's why we keep powering through.

However, if you keep powering through, you're going to make more mistakes.

So what I like to do is I actually like to block out time.

for like, you know, arrest a break.

Um, and I will honor it just like I would honor any other meeting.

And I have to do this in advance because again, in the moment I'm

not, I'm, I'm gonna like, no, no, no.

I, I can do it.

I can keep going.

Like, so that's the first thing is, you know, honor this.

Put that time in.

If you don't wanna call it play, call it rest, call it self care.

Call it a, like, whatever you need to call it, call it that.

And here's the thing, when that time comes, , what is something that is

going to, that you can do that is going to, I call it, powering you up

so that you can jump back into the.

and be more focused, uh, be more productive.

and like you said earlier, you know, at the top of the show,

it's very personal for everyone.

Uh, and the easiest way to find that out is like, what is something that you

love to do, you know, as a child that you can bring back now, you know, as an

adult and spend some time doing that.

Um, it may seem kind of like childish or, you know, whatever.

Get over that.

Allowed yourself to experiment with it.

I say test it out.

try it.

Yeah.

Uh, if you don't like it, try something else.

Uh, for me personally, I know growing up, um, I used to, you know, play with Legos.

Um, I grew up in the time where there wasn't like kits that had

instructions to build things.

It was just like a bucket of Legos.

Uh, and so yeah, we would just build stuff like, you know.

And so I have like within an arms reach.

Some Legos that, you know, I can pull out and I can just sort of, yeah.

Play around with and it just allows me to step away from the work.

It allows me to do something very tactile.

Mm-hmm.

. Um, because I like to say that if I'm doing brain work, um, I probably

shouldn't, like when I'm resting, I probably shouldn't do something

that, you know, is going to like.

You know, uh, stimulate my brain, maybe do something else.

So, mm-hmm.

, you know, that, you know, some people might be more kinesthetic, so, you know,

get up and walk around, do some dancing.

I, again, it seems very silly, however, , it has major impacts in how we feel.

It's going to release dopamine, oxytocin, serotonin, endorphins,

all of those neurochemicals that you need to be successful.

Mm-hmm.

Ah, just talk about that.

Actually, I wanna get up, I wanna stretch, I wanna, you know, when you have a

really good stretch and you just like can hear my body crying out for that.

Now that's what I'm gonna do.

When you say goodbye, it's just 10 minute stretch and looking forward to that.

Um, okay.

Is there anything I should have asked you in this conversation that I have?

Not.

Anything you wanna share?

I've not invited out.

You asked all the right questions.

You asked me.

I didn't even think of that.

So I, I like to think that this is very, uh, you know, overarching, uh, and I don't

want to, you know, in the spirit of making it practical so that people can actually

get started and do something I don't want.

I'm just going to leave it at that.

Thank you so much, Gary.

It's been a huge pleasure spending time with

you.

Yeah, this is so much fun.

So what did you take away from that conversation?

Suki.

I really loved how we explored this idea of

what did we love as a child, what was played to us as children.

I think I often feel this innate desire to steer the conversation away from

kind of that linkage with childhood.

The whole player's childish.

I'm so keen to get away from that, that I don't.

Dive into the thread between us as adults and us as you know, little people.

And I love the kind of went there with Gary and this idea of what do we feel like

we might be lacking in our adult lives?

This idea of the kind of deficit, the deficiencies that

we might have in our adult life.

And does that thread lead back to what we had as children and kind

of, yeah, how can we just reconnect with what we loved as children?

I just, I really liked going down that, that memory lane,

I suppose, and indulging.

Oh yeah.

And listening to it, I absolutely loved the image of little Suki singing

to the mountains and the beautiful connection that you made back to, you

know, to your adult self and your choir.

That felt really special.

Mm.

Yeah.

And it was, uh, yeah, kind of.

I definitely went down memory lane there.

It's so visceral that memory.

I

Yeah.

I can even, yeah, I can remember it in all my senses doing

that and yeah, I'm really glad that.

, I've kind of acknowledged how important that is, like singing felt.

So as I say, it's the second one I've used.

The second time I've used this word indulgent, but it kind of feels like

I've got, you know, I'm too busy.

I've got too many responsibilities to just kind of indulge myself

and go to sing in a choir.

But I recognize that thread from little me and adult me, and I hope I

actually have it for my whole life now.

Um, but no, that was, that was a lovely reflection.

I was just gonna pick up on, you know, saying

that that was so visceral.

I thought it was really interesting how he talked later on about giving people

that experience of how long a minute was.

In relation to the pauses that you take when you're giving a presentation and how

actually doing something in that embodied like that and in that playful way, Will

give people such a different memory that will stick with them in, as you say, a

visceral way and is so much more powerful than somebody just telling you that

pauses are important in a presentation.

You know when you feel what a pause, a particular length of pause is, and you sat

there and you can feel it in your body.

It's so different, I think.

Yeah.

Absolutely.

What else came up for you when you were listening back to our conversation?

I really liked hearing about his approach to writing his book,

so the talking of the chapters rather than the writing of the chapters.

Cuz I definitely, I feel a real barrier sometimes when it comes to writing things

and that just may, you know, he found his own way to be playful with something that

didn't naturally feel playful to him.

And I thought that was really interesting.

Mm, absolutely.

How about you?

I thought there was something kind of quietly radical,

and when he was talking about how he'd experienced improv and he

then kind of took back some of the practices to his team and he was.

. You know, my only purpose in doing that and sharing those exercises

with, with my team was to bring laughter and lightness as, as a group.

You know, I was not trying to achieve any other end.

It was just to make people laugh to, to, to establish that correct connection.

And as you said, it kind of, it resulted in incredible closeness and bonds and

this environment of psychological safety, but he never set out to achieve that.

And I just, I dunno, that kind of struck me as like quietly radical

that you can have such an impact without setting out to achieve it.

Just by thinking there's value in creating this moment of

laughter and lightness in my team.

Um, and, and kind of what he achieved by doing that without kind of setting out

to do that I thought was, was amazing.

Yeah, those surprise benefits.

One thing also, I, I was really impressed by.

, when I was listening back on the conversation, I was kind of curious, I

wish I'd asked more about it, but when he was the kind of sole breadwinner

and his, you know, agency role ended and his wife said, Hey, you seem

to really love this kind of play facilitation thing you've got going on.

Um, and how he could, he kind of took that message and he was like, yes, I'm gonna

create, you know, a living outta this.

I'm gonna pursue this full-time.

And I thought I was just fascinated by the.

tension between doing something that is light and playful and as

you said, plays about just doing something because you enjoy it.

And how he was able to maintain that authentically in a time of kind of

real responsibility where he was, as you say, the only breadwinner and he

had to go out and support his family through that playfulness and lightness.

And I just, I dunno, I felt that there must have been such a tension

there and I was amazed that.

Able to keep it true and authentic like that rather than letting

the stress kind of impact it.

So I wish I'd kind of explored that more with him.

I really liked what he said about picking up the

breadcrumbs and that's something I could really relate to cuz that

was the way that I found this work.

Just picking up, you know, a breadcrumb of something that I

found really engaging and fun.

And then another one and then another one.

Um, and I thought that was a really nice way of describing it.

Um, yeah, I also thought there was something really important.

, uh, in what he said about, you know, as a kid, he was the joke, a joker.

That was his kind of way of being playful.

And actually at some point he got shamed for that and he hid that away

as something that was wrong and, you know, wasn't part of, shouldn't

be part of life or adult life.

And the lovely rediscovering that and the leaning into that as his, you know, his.

Persona and something that he's made a living out of ultimately

and the transformation that it feels has gone on there.

absolutely.

What other reflections did you have?

I loved that.

Um, play plus.

Yeah.

adding a bit of play to anything makes it better.

It's like, yeah.

It totally does, and also who knew public speaking was on a par with

death and spiders when it comes to.

I know it's dark, isn't it?

It is pretty scary.

I, um, I love just two of the kind of really practical tips as well, this idea.

You know, blocking time, scheduling time, proactively carving it out in

advance to, and he said, you know, you can call it play or you can call it

rest, you can call it something else.

So you don't have to be precious about the labels, but, kind

of not being spontaneous.

I think that's really, that's, that's something that can feel

more realistic, as I say, right?

I am just gonna carve out this 30 minutes or this hour to do something, you

know, on Thursday afternoon for myself.

And the trickiness, as you said, was honoring that as you would

honor a commitment to someone else.

How do you honor the commitment to yourself?

So that's not easy, but I just love that really practical element of.

Proactively, intentionally scheduling that time with yourself to do

what you need to do, and also the practical element of having almost

like a prop where you were working.

So he said here you had kind like a, you know, a little, some Lego.

I love how Americans come, Legos.

Have you noticed this?

Legos is always plural.

We speak to our lovely US comrades.

Um, so it's just that idea of kind of when you are like noodling on something

to let your hands absent mindedly play with something and to have a kind

of prop that you can just dip into, dip out to, um, dip out of rather.

I like that idea as well.

Just not there for any particular purpose, but just, yeah, absent

mindedly, let your, let your fingers wander while you need on something.

I like that idea of having a prop.

Thank you so much for listening today.

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