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We’re wired for play - So do it!
Episode 1017th April 2023 • Why Play Works. • Lucy Taylor and Tzuki Stewart
00:00:00 00:48:58

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Shownotes

Gary Ware needs curiosity, exploration and imagination in his life. How can we bring these qualities into our day to day life?

Gary grew up as the class clown and got into a lot of mischief. As he got older and became an adult he suppressed his playful side. His goals became the standard that society set; go to university and get a good job. But he felt unfulfilled.

He unintentionally rediscovered his playful side from an improv class where he played silly games to be a better storyteller. 

Through co-running his own digital marketing agency he involved play in everything. Until he was sidelined by his business partner who didn’t buy into this methodology. 

From this setback he started on the path of facilitation and bringing playful methods to others. He is now a Strategic Play Consultant and created his company, Breakthrough Play.

Things to consider

  • The overarching meaning of play is to do something for the sake of it - we’re wired for play
  • Adults think play is something is frivolous or what kids do and feel guilty for feeling playful
  • Don’t judge yourself when indulging in play 
  • How to sell play to corporate clients by not telling them about play
  • Rebel against the status quo - play is the answer, not more hard work

Links

Get in touch!

Make Work Play

Playfilled

Transcripts

Tzuki Stewart:

Hello.

Tzuki Stewart:

Welcome to the show.

Tzuki Stewart:

I'm Zuki Stewart from playfield, a startup helping organizations to enable

Tzuki Stewart:

everyone to rediscover their creativity through playful wonder and serendipity.

Lucy Taylor:

And I'm Lucy Taylor from Make Work, play an organization on

Lucy Taylor:

a mission to use the power of play to unlock potential and possibility.

Lucy Taylor:

Together we are.

Lucy Taylor:

Why Playworks?

Lucy Taylor:

The podcast that speaks to people radically reshaping work as play.

Tzuki Stewart:

In this episode, I'll be speaking to Gary Ware.

Tzuki Stewart:

The founder of Breakthrough Play, Gary is a corporate facilitator, keynote speaker,

Tzuki Stewart:

certified coach, and author of the book, playful Rebellion, maximize Workplace

Tzuki Stewart:

Success through the Power of Play.

Lucy Taylor:

Gary has over 14 years experience in the corporate world

Lucy Taylor:

holding various leadership positions and being a multifaceted individual.

Lucy Taylor:

He also comes with nearly a decade of experience as a

Lucy Taylor:

performer in improv theater.

Tzuki Stewart:

After experiencing burnout in his pursuit for success

Tzuki Stewart:

and happiness, he realized that what was missing was spoiler play.

Tzuki Stewart:

Committing to a life of play is what led Gary to discover

Tzuki Stewart:

his passion for facilitating.

Tzuki Stewart:

Gary uses the power of applied improvisation and other playful methods

Tzuki Stewart:

to assist people in unlocking creativity, confidence, and better communi.

Lucy Taylor:

Gary was recently featured as one of the top hundred

Lucy Taylor:

HR influencers of 2021 by the engaged Lee HR software platform.

Lucy Taylor:

When he isn't leading workshops or speaking, you can find him learning

Lucy Taylor:

magic or often an adventure with his wife Courtney and his sons Garrett and Cameron.

Tzuki Stewart:

In this episode, we discuss leaning into your inner joker, the power

Tzuki Stewart:

of experience over words and how adding a little bit of play makes anything.

Tzuki Stewart:

Oh, I'm so excited this is happening at last.

Tzuki Stewart:

It's been a long time coming this conversation, so thank

Tzuki Stewart:

you so much for bearing with me and for giving me some time.

Tzuki Stewart:

My afternoon, your morning Trans-Atlantic.

Tzuki Stewart:

So it's great to have you

Gary Ware:

here.

Gary Ware:

Thank you so much for having me.

Gary Ware:

I, I am so excited to dive deep.

Gary Ware:

It's gonna be a lot of fun.

Tzuki Stewart:

So let's kick off.

Tzuki Stewart:

What does the word play mean to.

Gary Ware:

Wow.

Gary Ware:

Wow.

Gary Ware:

All right.

Gary Ware:

We're, we're starting with the, the big ones.

Gary Ware:

Uh, play has multiple meetings to me.

Gary Ware:

Uh, you know, the overarching meeting is to do something, um, for the sake of

Gary Ware:

and to, to dive whatever that activity is and be immersed in the process.

Gary Ware:

Um, You know, at the end of the day, enjoy you're So that, that's what

Gary Ware:

play means to me, um, as umbrella

Tzuki Stewart:

the, just doing it for the sake of it.

Tzuki Stewart:

And do you find that easy with practice?

Tzuki Stewart:

Because I think that's, that's difficult to do for a lot of people.

Tzuki Stewart:

Do you find it easier the more engaged you are in this

Gary Ware:

playfulness?

Gary Ware:

Well, see, this is the thing.

Gary Ware:

We are wired for play.

Gary Ware:

So like when, when the conditions are right.

Gary Ware:

We can dive into it.

Gary Ware:

However, getting to that state where we could be playful and, and

Gary Ware:

really get into that, um, into that level of focus can be challenging

Gary Ware:

due to so many different things.

Gary Ware:

You know, just our understanding of play, you know, our society conditioned us, um,

Gary Ware:

as adults to think that play is something.

Gary Ware:

Is frivolous or, or what kids do.

Gary Ware:

Um, and again, you know, depending on the context, we might feel guilty

Gary Ware:

for feeling playful in the moment.

Gary Ware:

Um, you know.

Gary Ware:

Mm-hmm.

Gary Ware:

especially, you know, thinking of work, uh, you know, when we think we

Gary Ware:

have to be so serious and rigid where.

Gary Ware:

a again, if we really understand, like I said, the umbrella term of play,

Gary Ware:

it just means to just do something for the sake of doing it, you know,

Gary Ware:

not worried about the the outcome.

Gary Ware:

And

Tzuki Stewart:

what's your earliest memory of play?

Gary Ware:

If we can go way back?

Gary Ware:

Uh, for me, I do remember.

Gary Ware:

When I was about three or four, um, my dad was in the armed

Gary Ware:

service in the, in the navy, here in the us and we were in Hawaii.

Gary Ware:

And I do remember, you know, uh, exploring.

Gary Ware:

and, you know, just being out and about.

Gary Ware:

Um, I, I was a very, I still am very curious kid, , and, uh, I, I

Gary Ware:

tend to get into a lot of mischief, just being curious about stuff.

Gary Ware:

And so I, I remember having adventures, um, and it's so funny because I

Gary Ware:

was younger than my son is now, and my mom just let me just go out

Gary Ware:

of the house and I'm at this park that is near our house and she.

Gary Ware:

All right, cool.

Gary Ware:

Like it, it's all good.

Gary Ware:

Be home soon, . Yeah,

Tzuki Stewart:

I completely agree.

Tzuki Stewart:

And when you think back to that three, four year old in Hawaii

Tzuki Stewart:

being curious, do you, do you feel that younger self show up today?

Tzuki Stewart:

You said, I'm still a curious kid, right.

Tzuki Stewart:

So do you still feel that connection with the younger self and what play

Tzuki Stewart:

meant to him and how it shows up

Gary Ware:

in you?

Gary Ware:

. Yes, I do.

Gary Ware:

And, and I'm, I'm so glad that you bring this up because like in the

Gary Ware:

work that I do, that is some of the things that can help people really

Gary Ware:

unlock that spirit of plays is think about when you were younger, how

Gary Ware:

did you play, how did you show up?

Gary Ware:

And how can you like unlock that now?

Gary Ware:

And so as I mentioned, I was very curious kid.

Gary Ware:

Uh, I got into a bit of mischief just because I was

Gary Ware:

like, Ooh, what does this do?

Gary Ware:

And then I end up breaking something, or whatever the case may be.

Gary Ware:

You know, I over time learned that, Ooh, maybe that's not a good thing.

Gary Ware:

Um, however, you know, through hours and hours of therapy and,

Gary Ware:

and, and interventions and stuff like that, as an adult, I've learned

Gary Ware:

to realize that, um, those are the things that I need as an adult.

Gary Ware:

I need curiosity.

Gary Ware:

I need imagination.

Gary Ware:

I need exploration.

Gary Ware:

You know, that's what I like to call, uh, being childlike.

Gary Ware:

You know, how can we.

Gary Ware:

, uh, bring these qualities into our day-to-day.

Gary Ware:

And yes, I've, um, uh, Dr.

Gary Ware:

Stewart Brown who wrote the book play, talked about different play personalities.

Gary Ware:

Mm-hmm.

Gary Ware:

and one of the big ones for me is the Joker.

Gary Ware:

Um, I was all about playing practical jokes and, and whatnot,

Gary Ware:

um, and being very jovial.

Gary Ware:

And again, yeah, it did get me into trouble.

Gary Ware:

And so again, as kids, sometimes we make these sort of, Sort of

Gary Ware:

overarching statements of like, Ooh, this is not a good thing.

Gary Ware:

You know, instead of like com compartmentalizing, you

Gary Ware:

know, these situations mm-hmm.

Gary Ware:

And so, yeah.

Gary Ware:

Uh, like as an adult I did find myself like, maybe I shouldn't,

Gary Ware:

you know, I, I should hide that.

Gary Ware:

Uh, but I do find that when I.

Gary Ware:

am allowing myself to express that, uh, I am feeling more whole.

Gary Ware:

Mm-hmm.

Gary Ware:

and, um, you know, more fulfilled.

Gary Ware:

Mm-hmm.

Gary Ware:

, I

Tzuki Stewart:

completely, completely agree.

Tzuki Stewart:

And what you're saying there makes me think of my younger self and

Tzuki Stewart:

kind of how she liked to play.

Tzuki Stewart:

And one of my earlie memories of play is, Um, I lived when I was younger, kind

Tzuki Stewart:

of on a mountainside in Portugal, um, kind of off the grid, no running water.

Tzuki Stewart:

Uh, you know, we had windmills for power, that kind of thing.

Tzuki Stewart:

Very, um, unorthodox.

Tzuki Stewart:

And I also, just to add to that funky mix, I didn't go to school.

Tzuki Stewart:

I was home educated and so I had a lot of time on my hands in the day

Tzuki Stewart:

cause I wasn't in, you know, class back to back as most children were.

Tzuki Stewart:

And one of my earnest memories is, It's not sneaking.

Tzuki Stewart:

Cause I wasn't, not allowed, but kind of going down the

Tzuki Stewart:

track in this, in this mountain.

Tzuki Stewart:

And I had my discman, do you remember Discmans?

Tzuki Stewart:

You know that's what they're called after.

Tzuki Stewart:

After the cassette, the Walkman, you had the Discman and I

Tzuki Stewart:

thought I was just Thies knees.

Tzuki Stewart:

I was like, yo, check out my Walkman.

Tzuki Stewart:

My discman, and get my headphones.

Tzuki Stewart:

And I would take a little selection of CDs down this hill, down this track.

Tzuki Stewart:

No one around like the odd shepherd perhaps like yonder in the distance.

Tzuki Stewart:

And I put on my headphones and I would sing to an to an imaginary.

Tzuki Stewart:

You know, spice Girls, whatever I could have.

Tzuki Stewart:

And I would spend hours just singing to myself and my imaginary

Tzuki Stewart:

audience and making dance routines.

Tzuki Stewart:

And, and I think now, you know, I was never gonna be a singer that

Tzuki Stewart:

I wasn't doing that cause I was practicing something I was good at

Tzuki Stewart:

and I wanted to do when I was older.

Tzuki Stewart:

Right.

Tzuki Stewart:

It wa there was no end to that.

Tzuki Stewart:

I just loved the feeling like in my throat of singing.

Tzuki Stewart:

And then, you know, I grew up and when I was at university I did a bit

Tzuki Stewart:

of kind of dance and theater, but, you know, you, you, you leave that

Tzuki Stewart:

behind, you get a big grown up job and kind of, you don't have time.

Tzuki Stewart:

Just last year, my child after school and they have a staff parent choir, and I was

Tzuki Stewart:

like nose against the window pressed up like, let me in, when are you starting?

Tzuki Stewart:

And I began singing in the choir with other adults and there's something

Tzuki Stewart:

just deep about singing with, with other people, like quite primal.

Tzuki Stewart:

And you know, you sing with strangers, there's lots of people I don't know,

Tzuki Stewart:

and we're getting them notes wrong and we're trying to harmonize and

Tzuki Stewart:

we're, you know, you've gotta get into a rhythm together and you're

Tzuki Stewart:

strangers and there's something.

Tzuki Stewart:

I know primal about it.

Tzuki Stewart:

, you know, the days I, some days I'm, you know, I'm stressed out

Tzuki Stewart:

at work and I think, my gosh, how indulgent am I going with this choir?

Tzuki Stewart:

Like, what am I, you know, I'm not taking, taking care of my kids.

Tzuki Stewart:

I'm not working, as you said, the guilt around why am I indulging myself in this?

Tzuki Stewart:

And I'll go off for an hour there and I'll just come at a different person.

Tzuki Stewart:

That feeling of wholeness and fulfillment you talked about, and it's just like

Tzuki Stewart:

something very deep has been soothed.

Tzuki Stewart:

And it's funny that that's the linkage I feel with.

Tzuki Stewart:

You know, my small six year old child self who loved that too, and I, yeah.

Tzuki Stewart:

I love that linkage.

Gary Ware:

So beautiful.

Gary Ware:

Thank you so much for sharing that story.

Tzuki Stewart:

So back to back to our present day, fully grown

Tzuki Stewart:

up responsible selves, when did you most recently feel playful?

Gary Ware:

Uh, you would think that I would say, oh, when engaging with my kids.

Gary Ware:

Yeah.

Gary Ware:

I, so I have a five year old and a five month old, and, Lately just because

Gary Ware:

of the holidays and stuff like that.

Gary Ware:

And sometimes I feel guilty because, you know, my son wants to play and I'm engaged

Gary Ware:

in play, but I'm, I'm having two hats on.

Gary Ware:

I'm like having a parent hat on and mm-hmm.

Gary Ware:

and I'm trying to be playful and it, it doesn't feel as playful as I would like.

Gary Ware:

And maybe because I'm a practitioner of this, maybe I'm judging myself a bit more.

Gary Ware:

But again, if Judge judgment's in there, You know, it's

Gary Ware:

not as playful as it can be.

Gary Ware:

However, uh, one of the things, um, I discovered over the last 10

Gary Ware:

years is, um, improvisation, you know, theatrical improvisation.

Gary Ware:

And I perform at a theater near my house.

Gary Ware:

Um, and we've had a hiatus because of the holidays.

Gary Ware:

And we had, uh, a performance, um, two weeks ago.

Gary Ware:

And it was, uh, one of those performances where we were.

Gary Ware:

in sync and it was just so much fun.

Gary Ware:

Yeah.

Gary Ware:

And it was like much needed after like, you know, again, a stressful holiday

Gary Ware:

season to just let loose and just Yeah.

Gary Ware:

Be spontaneous.

Gary Ware:

Um, you know, You know, with my fellow improvisers and we left like feeling like,

Gary Ware:

man, that was a, that was a good show.

Gary Ware:

That was, that was awesome.

Gary Ware:

So that was, yeah, one of the last times, like, and it wasn't that long ago.

Gary Ware:

Yeah.

Gary Ware:

Where I felt really playful.

Tzuki Stewart:

I love that idea of being in sync and I guess that's nice.

Tzuki Stewart:

Um, linking to what I wanted to ask you next, which was

Tzuki Stewart:

really about your journey to.

Tzuki Stewart:

Playfulness and especially this idea of playful working, and I think that

Tzuki Stewart:

started with a, with an improv experience.

Tzuki Stewart:

So tell us more about the journey to today.

Tzuki Stewart:

Yeah,

Gary Ware:

so, uh, as I mentioned, you know, growing up I was, you know, that

Gary Ware:

class clowned, um, very curious, um, you know, got into a lot of mischief.

Gary Ware:

Um, and then as I got older, it was one of those things where I would suppress that.

Gary Ware:

I was like, oh, that's not something that adults do.

Gary Ware:

You know, my end goal at just like everyone's end goal was to,

Gary Ware:

to be happy and to be successful.

Gary Ware:

And those things on my list, you know, after, you know, years of like reflection,

Gary Ware:

you know, weren't necessarily things that I put on there, you know, it was

Gary Ware:

things that I thought I needed to do to be happy, to be successful, you

Gary Ware:

know, go to university, you know, get a good job and, and all these things.

Gary Ware:

And I found myself in a career that on paper I should be

Gary Ware:

ecstatic about, you know?

Gary Ware:

Mm-hmm.

Gary Ware:

, it was, you know, I went to school for this and, and I, I'm rising up the ranks.

Gary Ware:

I'm, I'm, you know, by society's terms, I, I'm successful.

Gary Ware:

Yeah.

Gary Ware:

However, I was feeling a bit unfulfilled, you know, burnt out.

Gary Ware:

Quite frequently, and it's really funny that I think about this.

Gary Ware:

Um, the thing that helped me rediscover my play was an

Gary Ware:

improv class, as you mentioned.

Gary Ware:

However, that wasn't my intention on signing up for the class.

Gary Ware:

It wasn't like, Hey, I think this is gonna be fun and, and let me do this is.

Gary Ware:

It was to become a better public speaker.

Gary Ware:

Okay.

Gary Ware:

You know, it was for op, like self optimization

Gary Ware:

I'm glad I took a class.

Gary Ware:

I, I'm, I'm so glad I did because going into that class, um, it was a January

Gary Ware:

and there was, uh, you know, about, you know, 14, 15 people just like myself.

Gary Ware:

And for two hours we, we.

Gary Ware:

and we did these silly games that are designed to help people think better on

Gary Ware:

their feet to be a better storyteller.

Gary Ware:

Uh, but it felt like play, it felt like recess, and I was just

Gary Ware:

blown open, like, what was this?

Gary Ware:

Uh, and I was hooked.

Gary Ware:

And like from day one I was hooked.

Gary Ware:

I was like, this is the most fun thing.

Gary Ware:

Um, I don't even care if it helps me with, with public speaking.

Gary Ware:

I love it.

Gary Ware:

Um, and then, I loved it so much that I would bring the activities

Gary Ware:

that we would do in class to my team.

Gary Ware:

You know, we would play, you know, these silly storytelling games

Gary Ware:

where we're, you know, creating co-creating stories one word at a time.

Gary Ware:

I'll bring it to my team.

Gary Ware:

I'm like, Hey, we should play this again.

Gary Ware:

The, at that point, the, it wasn't about like, Hey, you know, I'm

Gary Ware:

trying to make us more cohesive.

Gary Ware:

Um, I just thought it was fun.

Gary Ware:

And, and this is one of the cool things about play.

Gary Ware:

You know, it, it's inherently enjoyable and, and you want to,

Gary Ware:

you know, you wanna share it.

Gary Ware:

Um, and so, but one of the cool things that I discovered by accident,

Gary Ware:

again, you know, everything.

Gary Ware:

I feel like it's these like, uh, with Hanson Gretto, you know how

Gary Ware:

like they put the breadcrumbs down to help them get back home?

Gary Ware:

I felt like that's what I was doing.

Gary Ware:

I was following these, these breadcrumbs.

Gary Ware:

The first breadcrumb was an improv class.

Gary Ware:

Yeah.

Gary Ware:

And then, I was just following that sort of impulse of like,

Gary Ware:

oh, I should share this.

Gary Ware:

And so over time we did, um, you know, become even more cohesive.

Gary Ware:

You know, we trust each other a lot more.

Gary Ware:

We had higher levels of psychological safety.

Gary Ware:

Um, you know, I would be lying if I was saying that was my intention all along.

Gary Ware:

Uh, that's something that I discovered, like after the fact looking

Gary Ware:

back I'm like, oh yeah, because.

Gary Ware:

We allowed ourselves to be playful.

Gary Ware:

You know, we brought this, these games into the workplace.

Gary Ware:

And so that was the catalyst, that was the thing.

Gary Ware:

And then I was curious.

Gary Ware:

I was like, alright, if Improv did this, what else?

Gary Ware:

And I was, I was, you know, very curious about the topic

Gary Ware:

of play in play for adults.

Gary Ware:

And then that let me on this path.

Gary Ware:

Now the interesting thing is this was all in service of my team,

Gary Ware:

you know, as a, uh, people leader.

Gary Ware:

I didn't think that I.

Gary Ware:

, you know, be where I am now.

Gary Ware:

Mm-hmm.

Gary Ware:

, you know, I, again, I was on that path of like, no, I, you know, I have this career.

Gary Ware:

Um, and then, so I did all the things I thought you should do, you

Gary Ware:

know, as a career, um, especially in marketing and advertising mm-hmm.

Gary Ware:

. And that took me to running my own, um, co-running my

Gary Ware:

own digital marketing agency.

Gary Ware:

I was, uh, one of three partners, um, in this, uh, in this venture.

Gary Ware:

In the beginning.

Gary Ware:

Yeah, it was fun.

Gary Ware:

It was, everything was play.

Gary Ware:

I was bringing all these things that I was learning.

Gary Ware:

It gave me a sandbox to practice these things and I, you know, just for fun, I.

Gary Ware:

Have these little mini meetup groups.

Gary Ware:

I called them recess, where, um, you know, I would help, you know,

Gary Ware:

other adults, you know, we would do these very playful things.

Gary Ware:

Um, and, you know, as a way to just help people unwind and connect.

Gary Ware:

And it was after I.

Gary Ware:

Got back from this retreat that I co-facilitated in Nicaragua where

Gary Ware:

my business partner in the middle of like, it was, I was blindsided.

Gary Ware:

He basically said, um, we should go our separate ways.

Gary Ware:

And, and he sort of just had my buyout check and I was just floored.

Gary Ware:

I was like, What?

Gary Ware:

Like . Oh yeah.

Gary Ware:

And then two.

Gary Ware:

So get this, like when it rains, it pours.

Gary Ware:

Mm-hmm.

Gary Ware:

. So two hours after that, um, my landlord calls and tells me and my wife that he has

Gary Ware:

to sell the house that we've been renting.

Gary Ware:

So my son, uh, my.

Gary Ware:

ELDs is, is one at the time about to be one.

Gary Ware:

And my wife isn't working, is, you know, I'm the, the sole

Gary Ware:

breadwinner of the family.

Gary Ware:

And I went from having, uh, a job that supported me in doing these fun

Gary Ware:

endeavors to like, like, be like, what am I gonna do with my life?

Gary Ware:

And it was my, my wife's support that she like, sort of nudged me.

Gary Ware:

She like, you know this, you know, she didn't even know what to call at the time.

Gary Ware:

Like, this stuff that you're doing with Play , you know, seems very enjoyable.

Gary Ware:

Couldn't you get paid for doing that instead, you know, instead

Gary Ware:

of like going to go find another, you know, agency job, you know?

Gary Ware:

Mm-hmm.

Gary Ware:

. Um, because there was a little bit of shame, you know, where I'm like, oh,

Gary Ware:

now I have to go find a job and tell people that this thing didn't work out.

Gary Ware:

And, and so anyhoo, uh, long story short, that put me on the path of facilitation

Gary Ware:

and bringing, um, playful methods mm-hmm.

Gary Ware:

outside of the team that I was working on to others to help them have the

Gary Ware:

same sort of impact that it had on me.

Gary Ware:

. Tzuki Stewart: Amazing.

Gary Ware:

And what would you say has been the biggest surprise in

Gary Ware:

that journey for you in working

Gary Ware:

with play?

Gary Ware:

that it is a journey.

Gary Ware:

You know?

Gary Ware:

That, that it, um, that.

Gary Ware:

There is so much to learn.

Gary Ware:

So at first, when I first got on this, um, I think I was very naive and I think,

Gary Ware:

and I'm glad that I was, because if I would've known the things that I knew now,

Gary Ware:

I might not have gone on this journey.

Gary Ware:

. I might have just took the easy route and said, no, just go find another job.

Gary Ware:

Uh, because, um, I thought that, oh, this is gonna be a no-brainer.

Gary Ware:

I'm going, I'm gonna tell like it.

Gary Ware:

I'm like, oh, hey, there's this thing called play you probably

Gary Ware:

didn't even know about it.

Gary Ware:

Uh, there's also this thing called improv.

Gary Ware:

It can help your team.

Gary Ware:

Like I thought it would just be that easy to just tell people about it.

Gary Ware:

I'm like, you probably didn't know about this, but hey, here's this

Gary Ware:

thing that's gonna help your team.

Gary Ware:

And I was met with so much resistance.

Gary Ware:

Uh, people were like, that sounds nice and.

Gary Ware:

No, um, we'll, we'll, we'll get back to you on that.

Gary Ware:

Uh, I'm like, no, no, you, you, you don't get it.

Gary Ware:

It is going to like, change everything.

Gary Ware:

Your team is gonna be, uh, you know, so engaged.

Gary Ware:

It's gonna reduce turnover, it's gonna do, and they're like, mm-hmm.

Gary Ware:

Okay.

Gary Ware:

I I hear you.

Gary Ware:

And, uh, you want me to pay you to do what with my team?

Gary Ware:

So I, I had to learn, uh, you know, the, the right way to position this.

Gary Ware:

Um, You know, you might have heard the phrase, uh, sell people, um, what they

Gary Ware:

ask for, give them what they need.

Gary Ware:

So over time I realized, I'm like, oh, all right.

Gary Ware:

This is a positioning thing.

Gary Ware:

Um, you know, and then I was like, I am a trainer.

Gary Ware:

I am a corporate trainer and facilitator, and I help you

Gary Ware:

with soft skills and blah, blah.

Gary Ware:

And then they were like, oh, okay, great.

Gary Ware:

Okay.

Gary Ware:

And then I would bring them playful methods and then, you know, it's

Gary Ware:

like, all right, it's all good.

Gary Ware:

It's like the play

Tzuki Stewart:

Trojan Horse.

Tzuki Stewart:

Yes.

Tzuki Stewart:

So you, you bring it in, then you're like, oh, your place will just come

Tzuki Stewart:

out and you're like, Hey guys, right?

Tzuki Stewart:

Yeah.

Tzuki Stewart:

I love it.

Tzuki Stewart:

I love it.

Tzuki Stewart:

And, and yeah, being on a very, well, I'm on a very similar journey, I

Tzuki Stewart:

think with playful to me and my, my co-founder, and people are like, God,

Tzuki Stewart:

I love what you're talking about.

Tzuki Stewart:

It's like, okay, invest in it then like, Ooh, . Um, but

Tzuki Stewart:

yeah, it's, it's gonna happen.

Tzuki Stewart:

It's gonna happen.

Tzuki Stewart:

, the trickle will turn into a

Gary Ware:

well to that, to that point, it's very experiential, so mm-hmm.

Gary Ware:

people who have experienced it, and then they get it, they will

Gary Ware:

go and tell people like, all right, this is , this play thing.

Gary Ware:

You, you need to talk to Gary.

Gary Ware:

But I still get the same thing, so I, I know to like bring the Trojan

Gary Ware:

horse, but they're like, What did you do for the, like, I, we want

Gary Ware:

what they, what they're having

Tzuki Stewart:

and, and I'm kind of getting a sense in this conversation

Tzuki Stewart:

that sometimes it's hard to articulate exactly what the magic is

Tzuki Stewart:

and especially for other people to articulate it to someone else because,

Tzuki Stewart:

you know, word of mouth referrals, you know, that's obviously golden

Tzuki Stewart:

for a new started for a new business.

Tzuki Stewart:

People want to do that when they've been impressed, but it's sometimes

Tzuki Stewart:

difficult to really, they're like, ah, how do I describe him

Tzuki Stewart:

to my friend working in so-and-so?

Tzuki Stewart:

It's, it's kind of hard to articulate, isn't it?

Tzuki Stewart:

I get a sense.

Tzuki Stewart:

It's been the same for you.

Tzuki Stewart:

It's so experiential, as you say.

Tzuki Stewart:

So in September last year, you published your book Play for

Tzuki Stewart:

Rebellion, maximized Workplace Success through the Power of Play.

Tzuki Stewart:

So tell me, tell me more about that and, and why you think we need a play

Gary Ware:

for rebellion.

Gary Ware:

So, to the point that we were talking about, , you know how play is something

Gary Ware:

that, um, spices everything up.

Gary Ware:

However, as adults, uh, you know, we have become allergic to it.

Gary Ware:

You know, we think it's something that just kids do.

Gary Ware:

Um, I was looking at all of the challenges that, uh, you know,

Gary Ware:

professionals and, and companies are facing, uh, you know, with you.

Gary Ware:

Again, you know, being a successful company, you know, keeping

Gary Ware:

employees and, and creating an environment where people can thrive.

Gary Ware:

And I'm like, play is the answer.

Gary Ware:

However, most people are like, uh, I don't know.

Gary Ware:

You know, I think more hard work is the answer . Cause we,

Tzuki Stewart:

I think doing more faster is the answer actually.

Gary Ware:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Gary Ware:

Um, and I'm like, play will get you there.

Gary Ware:

You're like, Hmm, are you sure?

Gary Ware:

So, uh, that's where the rebellion comes in.

Gary Ware:

Uh, we need to rebel against the status quo, re rebel against our

Gary Ware:

ingrained thinking, using play as a way so that we can be successful

Gary Ware:

because yeah, just right out the gate, Just because the conditioning,

Gary Ware:

we're just going to not wanna do it.

Gary Ware:

I know, I know all of these things firsthand.

Gary Ware:

I've, I've studied them, I read them, and I still get that allergic

Gary Ware:

reaction, you know, that resistance.

Gary Ware:

And so, you know, we need, we need to rebel playfully, um, you

Gary Ware:

know, as a way so that we can be successful at work, uh, because.

Gary Ware:

, you know, work and play are not mutually exclusive.

Gary Ware:

You know, we, you can't just do one and then, you know, do the other.

Gary Ware:

My dad used to say, Hey, Gary, you know, do your work.

Gary Ware:

Then you can play.

Gary Ware:

And as a kid, you know, and trust me as a, you know, having a five

Gary Ware:

year old, that is very helpful.

Gary Ware:

In those situations.

Gary Ware:

It can be very motivating.

Gary Ware:

However, as an adult, Your to-do list is never done, so you will never

Gary Ware:

play if that is your way of thinking.

Gary Ware:

And so we need to rebel so that we can bring our true selves to work.

Gary Ware:

Um, and so, so that is, you know why the book is called Playful Rebellion?

Gary Ware:

Uh, reason why I wrote the book is that, um, I would lead these playful

Gary Ware:

challenges where I would help people create habits, you know, um, using

Gary Ware:

play and then a number of people.

Gary Ware:

Hey, um, do you have a guide, like a playbook?

Gary Ware:

You know, because it's like when you go to the gym, you can go to the

Gary Ware:

gym one or two times, but that's not going to give you that six pack abs

Gary Ware:

that you want for the summer.

Gary Ware:

.Yeah.

Gary Ware:

You have to be consistent.

Gary Ware:

And so I'm like, all right.

Gary Ware:

And so that was one of the reasons why I said, all right,

Gary Ware:

I will, I will write this book.

Gary Ware:

Um, even though I didn't want to, uh, I, and, and it's not that I didn't wanna

Gary Ware:

share this, it's just that I didn't necessarily consider myself an author.

Gary Ware:

Um, you know, thinking about like, creating playful environments,

Gary Ware:

sitting down and writing did not seem very playful to me.

Gary Ware:

Matter of fact, it, uh, it was something that it reminded me of, like when

Gary Ware:

I was in school and having to write papers and essays and, um, you know,

Gary Ware:

If you really knew me, you would know that I'm dyslexic and I have adhd.

Gary Ware:

So to sit down and focus and to write something, uh, even though I'm excited

Gary Ware:

about it, can be challenging . So, um, I, uh, followed my own advice

Gary Ware:

and I created a playful way to write the book so that I can, um, you

Gary Ware:

know, put this out into the world.

Tzuki Stewart:

What was that playful way?

Gary Ware:

so I like talking and I like telling stories and so,

Gary Ware:

um, . I worked with an editor that, uh, we had an a one hour zoom

Gary Ware:

meeting every week for nine months.

Gary Ware:

And, um, instead of writing the chapters, I would talk the chapters.

Gary Ware:

Um, and because they weren't familiar with the subject matter, it was perfect

Gary Ware:

because they would ask me clarifying questions, and it was all via Zoom.

Gary Ware:

It was all recorded, and then we took.

Gary Ware:

Video recording and transcribed it, and then that became the rough draft

Lucy Taylor rx:

Wow.

Tzuki Stewart:

Amazing.

Tzuki Stewart:

And you used the word just now, allergic.

Tzuki Stewart:

You know, we are kind of a bit of allergic to this idea of play and,

Tzuki Stewart:

and, and that resonates with me, I think of a lot of environments.

Tzuki Stewart:

In my working life where it feels, you know, a certain meeting or a

Tzuki Stewart:

certain workshop and you think, gosh, play feels unwelcome here.

Tzuki Stewart:

You know, if I were to suggest something playfully i'd, they'd

Tzuki Stewart:

be like, oh, a lot of you know it.

Tzuki Stewart:

It can feel like a very not of hostile environment, but it just feels

Tzuki Stewart:

unwelcome and that sense of analogy.

Tzuki Stewart:

So how do you overcome that kind of allergic reaction with your

Tzuki Stewart:

work with Breakthrough Player, your

Gary Ware:

company?

Gary Ware:

Yeah.

Gary Ware:

It, it, it starts by meeting people where they are, you know, realizing

Gary Ware:

that, um, you know, they may, um, you know, they may not be used to that sort

Gary Ware:

of, um, interaction experience and then starting slow, but trusting the process,

Gary Ware:

knowing that we are wired for play.

Gary Ware:

It is there deep down inside and creating an environment.

Gary Ware:

where over time we can sort of ramp it up a little bit and know that, you know,

Gary Ware:

when people are invited and they feel safe, they will, they will play mm-hmm.

Gary Ware:

. Tzuki Stewart: Mm-hmm.

Gary Ware:

to trust the process.

Gary Ware:

And then I think also it's a, it's that feeling of.

Gary Ware:

players gonna look and feel different for each of us, you know?

Gary Ware:

So what you find play for is, you talked about play personalities

Gary Ware:

earlier in our conversation.

Gary Ware:

You know, the joker shows up in you.

Gary Ware:

And for other people, that's like the opposite of how they play.

Gary Ware:

And it's just being generous and diverse and how you kind of understand

Gary Ware:

people's own way of play and, and what it, what it means to them.

Gary Ware:

And I guess, When I think about my work with Play Field and, you know, using

Gary Ware:

playful methods with clients and, and also my other work, which is in kind

Gary Ware:

of change and transformation projects more widely, I guess I, I completely

Gary Ware:

have seen and felt firsthand the power of play and I, and I wanna like

Gary Ware:

spread it like all does wherever I go.

Gary Ware:

But that's that point of kind of where does it feel appropriate

Gary Ware:

and welcome to introduce it.

Gary Ware:

And I guess to play devil's advocate, do you think.

Gary Ware:

, are we being unrealistic to try and bring play and work together?

Gary Ware:

Yes, it is an unreal, it, it's a, it's a tall order to fill.

Gary Ware:

However, I feel like it's necessary to, to get us to this next level

Gary Ware:

where we can be sustainable.

Gary Ware:

Mm-hmm.

Gary Ware:

, because the way that we're working now is not working . Mm.

Gary Ware:

to have people work so much and be under so much stress that

Gary Ware:

their body just shuts down.

Gary Ware:

You know, our bodies aren't used to dealing with that this much stress.

Gary Ware:

Mm-hmm.

Gary Ware:

, you know, you're, you're used to having a stressor, you know,

Gary Ware:

whatever it is, dealing with it.

Gary Ware:

All right, cool.

Gary Ware:

You know, and moving on, you know, our brains are a bit prehistoric in

Gary Ware:

that, however, , the daily stress of life is just keeping our brain in that

Gary Ware:

fight, flight or freeze mentality.

Gary Ware:

Mm-hmm.

Gary Ware:

. And we need something else.

Gary Ware:

And this is, in my opinion, um, you know, I, I, I want someone to prove me wrong.

Gary Ware:

Like, I feel like play is that thing that is going to, uh, alleviate stress now.

Gary Ware:

It's not, it's, it's something like that needs to be sort of sprinkled in.

Gary Ware:

You know, like if you have too much salt in your soup, like it,

Gary Ware:

it's, it's not gonna taste right.

Gary Ware:

So, yeah.

Gary Ware:

You know, there's a time and place for it.

Gary Ware:

The amount that you add, you know, depends on the situation and it feels like

Tzuki Stewart:

how to move beyond this kind of play as a quick fix.

Tzuki Stewart:

You know, everyone's keen for it for an afternoon and that's great.

Tzuki Stewart:

Right.

Tzuki Stewart:

That can be your entry point.

Tzuki Stewart:

That's your entry truck, but Yep.

Tzuki Stewart:

But it's the, the, the evolution into part of the sustainable picture of

Tzuki Stewart:

how we work and how we're successful.

Tzuki Stewart:

That's, that's yet to come.

Tzuki Stewart:

I think that's the work, yeah.

Tzuki Stewart:

Ahead of us.

Tzuki Stewart:

Cool.

Tzuki Stewart:

I'm keeping on time.

Tzuki Stewart:

I know you've got some amazing work to deliver later on today, so I am

Tzuki Stewart:

gonna keep us, keep us at time, but let's, let's talk now about some

Tzuki Stewart:

really kind of practical examples.

Tzuki Stewart:

So yes, I'd love to hear about, okay, maybe you've got, if you

Tzuki Stewart:

think of your last three clients or maybe who you're going to see

Tzuki Stewart:

today or think of some clients and tell us why did they bring you in?

Tzuki Stewart:

What were they trying to achieve?

Tzuki Stewart:

And yes, obviously as everyone asks, what was the impact?

Gary Ware:

All right.

Gary Ware:

Yes.

Gary Ware:

And this is what I call play plus where play is, in my opinion,

Gary Ware:

uh, the cheat code for success.

Gary Ware:

Um, you know, you add play to anything and it makes it even better.

Gary Ware:

Um, like for example, like my mom wanted me to eat vegetables.

Gary Ware:

Uh, and as a kid, you know, I didn't want to eat vegetables.

Gary Ware:

She added vegetables to Mackay and cheese, . Stacy, I eat vegetables.

Gary Ware:

I don't know if that is the best parenting thing, but again, having a young child

Gary Ware:

now, I'm like, do what you gotta do.

Gary Ware:

So, So thinking about some of the last clients I had, they had a very specific

Gary Ware:

challenge and I brought a playful method as a way to help them achieve that.

Gary Ware:

So one was, uh, you know, , uh, helping, uh, a team be better storytellers,

Gary Ware:

um, you know, be better presenting.

Gary Ware:

Uh, if you look at the data, I know here in the US uh, public speaking

Gary Ware:

is the second biggest fear to death.

Gary Ware:

Oh my goodness.

Gary Ware:

Death, public speaking and spiders

Gary Ware:

Okay.

Gary Ware:

However, we need to communicate, right?

Gary Ware:

We need to communicate it.

Gary Ware:

You know, if we can't communicate, you know, how can we progress?

Gary Ware:

So, um, they brought me in, uh, to help them develop, uh, better storytelling

Gary Ware:

skills, better public speaking skills, demystified public speaking, and I

Gary Ware:

did that through playful methods.

Gary Ware:

So instead of like putting people on the spot knowing that they're going to

Gary Ware:

be terrified, and it's like, all right.

Gary Ware:

Give me your speech and then you know that's not gonna help them get better.

Gary Ware:

Uh, what we did, we played games and activities that allowed them to practice

Gary Ware:

the different, um, nuances of public speaking in a fun and playful environment.

Gary Ware:

And as a result, they were able to get those reps in and

Gary Ware:

feel more comfortable public.

Gary Ware:

. Um, and so, um, you know, one of the games that you know, that I did, uh,

Gary Ware:

was, um, so we, we did a few things.

Gary Ware:

One, um, I I realized that people don't know time.

Gary Ware:

You know, time is one of those things that is very, uh, very finicky.

Gary Ware:

Like, you know, like this, this feels like man time's going by so much fun.

Gary Ware:

We're, we're, you know, so fast.

Gary Ware:

It feels like time is going by so fast.

Gary Ware:

We're having a lot of fun.

Gary Ware:

However, if you're in another situation, the same amount of time can.

Gary Ware:

Like hours . And so we did this really fun activity where I had them, uh,

Gary Ware:

close their eyes and I was the only one who knew how much time really passed.

Gary Ware:

And I said, we're gonna sit here in silence.

Gary Ware:

And when you think a minute is up, I want you to stand up.

Gary Ware:

. And so they all sat there and oh my gosh, it was so funny.

Gary Ware:

Um, you know where some people stood up?

Gary Ware:

I kid you not, after 15 seconds, 15 seconds.

Gary Ware:

And they like, it's been a minute.

Gary Ware:

And like they stand up and then, and so what I did as a way to

Gary Ware:

really, uh, emphasize my point, um, you know, they were able to stand

Gary Ware:

up, they could open their eyes.

Gary Ware:

Um, I.

Gary Ware:

Like, stop the timer.

Gary Ware:

Exactly.

Gary Ware:

After a minute.

Gary Ware:

I stopped it after two minutes.

Gary Ware:

But the, the whole point is to just let them know like, Hey,

Gary Ware:

you know, our internal clocks, depending on the situation is flawed.

Gary Ware:

You know, we can't always judge our internal emotions on what's going on.

Gary Ware:

And, you know, then we do a debrief, or what does this have

Gary Ware:

to do with public speaking?

Gary Ware:

Well, with public speaking, we know that pauses are impactful.

Gary Ware:

. However, when you're in a moment when you're nervous, you are

Gary Ware:

going to think that that pause, that, you know, three second pause

Gary Ware:

is gonna feel like an eternity.

Gary Ware:

So guess what?

Gary Ware:

Your brain is off.

Gary Ware:

So again, that that little example, that playful example,

Gary Ware:

allowed them to experience that.

Gary Ware:

Yeah, you're right.

Gary Ware:

You know, whereas I'm like, all right, we're gonna practice.

Gary Ware:

So it was still awkward.

Gary Ware:

However, it was playful and then it had a point again, that Trojan horse,

Gary Ware:

you know, and then we did, you know, other things where, uh, we did some

Gary Ware:

really fun storytelling things where they did a mashup where they told

Gary Ware:

stories about what they did through the lens of what they like to do.

Gary Ware:

Mm-hmm.

Gary Ware:

as a way to realize that when we talk about things that are fun, , we

Gary Ware:

naturally are more, um, outgoing.

Gary Ware:

Our, our tone's better.

Gary Ware:

You know, we did all these things and then by the end of it they, you

Gary Ware:

know, they actually got up and did some of their talks and they were.

Gary Ware:

Way better.

Gary Ware:

They were way better than, you know.

Gary Ware:

Again, you know, I could have gone in and like, all right, we're

Gary Ware:

gonna talk about public speaking.

Gary Ware:

Did you know that your actual words is only 3%?

Gary Ware:

You know, all this other stuff.

Gary Ware:

Yeah, it's useful information, but it's better if they experience it

Gary Ware:

and it's better if they experience it in a playful way, because they

Gary Ware:

will be more likely to re retain that information when the stakes are.

Gary Ware:

So that is just one thing.

Gary Ware:

Another, so again, I call it play plus.

Gary Ware:

So if you add, you know, um, you know, play to like public speaking, you're

Gary Ware:

gonna be an, uh, entertaining presenter.

Gary Ware:

Um, you know, people often bring me in, um, to help them be

Gary Ware:

more creative, more innovative.

Gary Ware:

Um, again, that's where.

Gary Ware:

Improv thinking comes in.

Gary Ware:

Um, and so, you know, we'll do a workshop where we would talk about the, you

Gary Ware:

know, the basics of improv, like Yes.

Gary Ware:

And better listing and things like that.

Gary Ware:

Mm-hmm.

Gary Ware:

. And we do activities and then, you know, then we put them in real life

Gary Ware:

situations where they need to brainstorm, where they need to be innovative,

Gary Ware:

and they find that they are better.

Gary Ware:

And so, uh, one last thing that you know, I started doing, um, especially

Gary Ware:

because of the pandemic, is just helping people connect , you know,

Gary Ware:

creating a playful environment where people can actually have conversations,

Gary Ware:

um, and then they find that they actually know each other a bit better.

Gary Ware:

So again, Uh, the opportunities are endless.

Gary Ware:

That's why we need more people doing this work, uh, so that we can help

Gary Ware:

people, um, you know, really just be their best versions of themselves.

Gary Ware:

And on top of that, when they.

Gary Ware:

Like one of the things I love to do is afterwards I'm like, this was fun, right?

Gary Ware:

You enjoyed yourself.

Gary Ware:

Imagine if you created an environment where on a day-to-day basis you add,

Gary Ware:

you sprinkle in some play, you know, and you created a playful environment.

Gary Ware:

You know what?

Gary Ware:

That would happen like once I'm gone, so yeah.

Tzuki Stewart:

I love the, the more I can hear about, you know,

Tzuki Stewart:

tangible, concrete, what did you do?

Tzuki Stewart:

Why, you know, why were you brought in, what happened?

Tzuki Stewart:

It's just, I think it's so helpful back to that articulation point as to,

Tzuki Stewart:

you know, what is the power of this in language and, and challenges that, that

Tzuki Stewart:

leaders might be kind of experiencing.

Tzuki Stewart:

So, really helpful.

Tzuki Stewart:

Thank you.

Tzuki Stewart:

And we are drawing to the end of our time together, unfortunately.

Tzuki Stewart:

So I'll, I'll kind of round off with, um, again, keeping our kind of feet on the.

Tzuki Stewart:

On the ground and, and thinking playfully and practically, do you have

Tzuki Stewart:

a playful practice that you use in your work or you use other people that

Tzuki Stewart:

our listener could try themselves?

Gary Ware:

Yes.

Gary Ware:

So, uh, like I said, play can, uh, be spiced into any sort of training

Gary Ware:

and it can make things a lot better.

Gary Ware:

. And on top of that, if you want to just spice up your sort of day to day,

Gary Ware:

um, you know, I call it the playful practice and it's very, very simple.

Gary Ware:

I like to think of inflection points throughout the day, uh, that could use

Gary Ware:

a bit of play and think about what, what sort of state do you need to be in, you

Gary Ware:

know, what sort of energy state do you need to be in, and what sort of playful

Gary Ware:

thing could you do to get you into that?

Gary Ware:

So again, the umbrella of play is doing something, you know, just for

Gary Ware:

the sake of doing it, that is going to like, make you feel more relaxed and

Gary Ware:

more, you know, sort of in the zone.

Gary Ware:

Um, like for example, uh, some very specific things is that

Gary Ware:

we need to take more breaks.

Gary Ware:

Let's just be honest.

Gary Ware:

We, we have a tendency to feel like we just need to keep working.

Gary Ware:

There is research that shows that humans we're bad at predicting our

Gary Ware:

level of energy, uh, and that's why we keep powering through.

Gary Ware:

However, if you keep powering through, you're going to make more mistakes.

Gary Ware:

So what I like to do is I actually like to block out time.

Gary Ware:

for like, you know, arrest a break.

Gary Ware:

Um, and I will honor it just like I would honor any other meeting.

Gary Ware:

And I have to do this in advance because again, in the moment I'm

Gary Ware:

not, I'm, I'm gonna like, no, no, no.

Gary Ware:

I, I can do it.

Gary Ware:

I can keep going.

Gary Ware:

Like, so that's the first thing is, you know, honor this.

Gary Ware:

Put that time in.

Gary Ware:

If you don't wanna call it play, call it rest, call it self care.

Gary Ware:

Call it a, like, whatever you need to call it, call it that.

Gary Ware:

And here's the thing, when that time comes, , what is something that is

Gary Ware:

going to, that you can do that is going to, I call it, powering you up

Gary Ware:

so that you can jump back into the.

Gary Ware:

and be more focused, uh, be more productive.

Gary Ware:

and like you said earlier, you know, at the top of the show,

Gary Ware:

it's very personal for everyone.

Gary Ware:

Uh, and the easiest way to find that out is like, what is something that you

Gary Ware:

love to do, you know, as a child that you can bring back now, you know, as an

Gary Ware:

adult and spend some time doing that.

Gary Ware:

Um, it may seem kind of like childish or, you know, whatever.

Gary Ware:

Get over that.

Gary Ware:

Allowed yourself to experiment with it.

Gary Ware:

I say test it out.

Gary Ware:

try it.

Gary Ware:

Yeah.

Gary Ware:

Uh, if you don't like it, try something else.

Gary Ware:

Uh, for me personally, I know growing up, um, I used to, you know, play with Legos.

Gary Ware:

Um, I grew up in the time where there wasn't like kits that had

Gary Ware:

instructions to build things.

Gary Ware:

It was just like a bucket of Legos.

Gary Ware:

Uh, and so yeah, we would just build stuff like, you know.

Gary Ware:

And so I have like within an arms reach.

Gary Ware:

Some Legos that, you know, I can pull out and I can just sort of, yeah.

Gary Ware:

Play around with and it just allows me to step away from the work.

Gary Ware:

It allows me to do something very tactile.

Gary Ware:

Mm-hmm.

Gary Ware:

. Um, because I like to say that if I'm doing brain work, um, I probably

Gary Ware:

shouldn't, like when I'm resting, I probably shouldn't do something

Gary Ware:

that, you know, is going to like.

Gary Ware:

You know, uh, stimulate my brain, maybe do something else.

Gary Ware:

So, mm-hmm.

Gary Ware:

, you know, that, you know, some people might be more kinesthetic, so, you know,

Gary Ware:

get up and walk around, do some dancing.

Gary Ware:

I, again, it seems very silly, however, , it has major impacts in how we feel.

Gary Ware:

It's going to release dopamine, oxytocin, serotonin, endorphins,

Gary Ware:

all of those neurochemicals that you need to be successful.

Gary Ware:

Mm-hmm.

Tzuki Stewart:

Ah, just talk about that.

Tzuki Stewart:

Actually, I wanna get up, I wanna stretch, I wanna, you know, when you have a

Tzuki Stewart:

really good stretch and you just like can hear my body crying out for that.

Tzuki Stewart:

Now that's what I'm gonna do.

Tzuki Stewart:

When you say goodbye, it's just 10 minute stretch and looking forward to that.

Tzuki Stewart:

Um, okay.

Tzuki Stewart:

Is there anything I should have asked you in this conversation that I have?

Tzuki Stewart:

Not.

Tzuki Stewart:

Anything you wanna share?

Tzuki Stewart:

I've not invited out.

Gary Ware:

You asked all the right questions.

Gary Ware:

You asked me.

Gary Ware:

I didn't even think of that.

Gary Ware:

So I, I like to think that this is very, uh, you know, overarching, uh, and I don't

Gary Ware:

want to, you know, in the spirit of making it practical so that people can actually

Gary Ware:

get started and do something I don't want.

Gary Ware:

I'm just going to leave it at that.

Tzuki Stewart:

Thank you so much, Gary.

Tzuki Stewart:

It's been a huge pleasure spending time with

Gary Ware:

you.

Gary Ware:

Yeah, this is so much fun.

Lucy Taylor:

So what did you take away from that conversation?

Lucy Taylor:

Suki.

Tzuki Stewart:

I really loved how we explored this idea of

Tzuki Stewart:

what did we love as a child, what was played to us as children.

Tzuki Stewart:

I think I often feel this innate desire to steer the conversation away from

Tzuki Stewart:

kind of that linkage with childhood.

Tzuki Stewart:

The whole player's childish.

Tzuki Stewart:

I'm so keen to get away from that, that I don't.

Tzuki Stewart:

Dive into the thread between us as adults and us as you know, little people.

Tzuki Stewart:

And I love the kind of went there with Gary and this idea of what do we feel like

Tzuki Stewart:

we might be lacking in our adult lives?

Tzuki Stewart:

This idea of the kind of deficit, the deficiencies that

Tzuki Stewart:

we might have in our adult life.

Tzuki Stewart:

And does that thread lead back to what we had as children and kind

Tzuki Stewart:

of, yeah, how can we just reconnect with what we loved as children?

Tzuki Stewart:

I just, I really liked going down that, that memory lane,

Tzuki Stewart:

I suppose, and indulging.

Lucy Taylor:

Oh yeah.

Lucy Taylor:

And listening to it, I absolutely loved the image of little Suki singing

Lucy Taylor:

to the mountains and the beautiful connection that you made back to, you

Lucy Taylor:

know, to your adult self and your choir.

Lucy Taylor:

That felt really special.

Tzuki Stewart:

Mm.

Tzuki Stewart:

Yeah.

Tzuki Stewart:

And it was, uh, yeah, kind of.

Tzuki Stewart:

I definitely went down memory lane there.

Tzuki Stewart:

It's so visceral that memory.

Tzuki Stewart:

I

Lucy Taylor:

Yeah.

Tzuki Stewart:

I can even, yeah, I can remember it in all my senses doing

Tzuki Stewart:

that and yeah, I'm really glad that.

Tzuki Stewart:

, I've kind of acknowledged how important that is, like singing felt.

Tzuki Stewart:

So as I say, it's the second one I've used.

Tzuki Stewart:

The second time I've used this word indulgent, but it kind of feels like

Tzuki Stewart:

I've got, you know, I'm too busy.

Tzuki Stewart:

I've got too many responsibilities to just kind of indulge myself

Tzuki Stewart:

and go to sing in a choir.

Tzuki Stewart:

But I recognize that thread from little me and adult me, and I hope I

Tzuki Stewart:

actually have it for my whole life now.

Tzuki Stewart:

Um, but no, that was, that was a lovely reflection.

Lucy Taylor:

I was just gonna pick up on, you know, saying

Lucy Taylor:

that that was so visceral.

Lucy Taylor:

I thought it was really interesting how he talked later on about giving people

Lucy Taylor:

that experience of how long a minute was.

Lucy Taylor:

In relation to the pauses that you take when you're giving a presentation and how

Lucy Taylor:

actually doing something in that embodied like that and in that playful way, Will

Lucy Taylor:

give people such a different memory that will stick with them in, as you say, a

Lucy Taylor:

visceral way and is so much more powerful than somebody just telling you that

Lucy Taylor:

pauses are important in a presentation.

Lucy Taylor:

You know when you feel what a pause, a particular length of pause is, and you sat

Lucy Taylor:

there and you can feel it in your body.

Lucy Taylor:

It's so different, I think.

Tzuki Stewart:

Yeah.

Tzuki Stewart:

Absolutely.

Tzuki Stewart:

What else came up for you when you were listening back to our conversation?

Lucy Taylor:

I really liked hearing about his approach to writing his book,

Lucy Taylor:

so the talking of the chapters rather than the writing of the chapters.

Lucy Taylor:

Cuz I definitely, I feel a real barrier sometimes when it comes to writing things

Lucy Taylor:

and that just may, you know, he found his own way to be playful with something that

Lucy Taylor:

didn't naturally feel playful to him.

Lucy Taylor:

And I thought that was really interesting.

Tzuki Stewart:

Mm, absolutely.

Lucy Taylor:

How about you?

Tzuki Stewart:

I thought there was something kind of quietly radical,

Tzuki Stewart:

and when he was talking about how he'd experienced improv and he

Tzuki Stewart:

then kind of took back some of the practices to his team and he was.

Tzuki Stewart:

. You know, my only purpose in doing that and sharing those exercises

Tzuki Stewart:

with, with my team was to bring laughter and lightness as, as a group.

Tzuki Stewart:

You know, I was not trying to achieve any other end.

Tzuki Stewart:

It was just to make people laugh to, to, to establish that correct connection.

Tzuki Stewart:

And as you said, it kind of, it resulted in incredible closeness and bonds and

Tzuki Stewart:

this environment of psychological safety, but he never set out to achieve that.

Tzuki Stewart:

And I just, I dunno, that kind of struck me as like quietly radical

Tzuki Stewart:

that you can have such an impact without setting out to achieve it.

Tzuki Stewart:

Just by thinking there's value in creating this moment of

Tzuki Stewart:

laughter and lightness in my team.

Tzuki Stewart:

Um, and, and kind of what he achieved by doing that without kind of setting out

Tzuki Stewart:

to do that I thought was, was amazing.

Lucy Taylor:

Yeah, those surprise benefits.

Tzuki Stewart:

One thing also, I, I was really impressed by.

Tzuki Stewart:

, when I was listening back on the conversation, I was kind of curious, I

Tzuki Stewart:

wish I'd asked more about it, but when he was the kind of sole breadwinner

Tzuki Stewart:

and his, you know, agency role ended and his wife said, Hey, you seem

Tzuki Stewart:

to really love this kind of play facilitation thing you've got going on.

Tzuki Stewart:

Um, and how he could, he kind of took that message and he was like, yes, I'm gonna

Tzuki Stewart:

create, you know, a living outta this.

Tzuki Stewart:

I'm gonna pursue this full-time.

Tzuki Stewart:

And I thought I was just fascinated by the.

Tzuki Stewart:

tension between doing something that is light and playful and as

Tzuki Stewart:

you said, plays about just doing something because you enjoy it.

Tzuki Stewart:

And how he was able to maintain that authentically in a time of kind of

Tzuki Stewart:

real responsibility where he was, as you say, the only breadwinner and he

Tzuki Stewart:

had to go out and support his family through that playfulness and lightness.

Tzuki Stewart:

And I just, I dunno, I felt that there must have been such a tension

Tzuki Stewart:

there and I was amazed that.

Tzuki Stewart:

Able to keep it true and authentic like that rather than letting

Tzuki Stewart:

the stress kind of impact it.

Tzuki Stewart:

So I wish I'd kind of explored that more with him.

Lucy Taylor:

I really liked what he said about picking up the

Lucy Taylor:

breadcrumbs and that's something I could really relate to cuz that

Lucy Taylor:

was the way that I found this work.

Lucy Taylor:

Just picking up, you know, a breadcrumb of something that I

Lucy Taylor:

found really engaging and fun.

Lucy Taylor:

And then another one and then another one.

Lucy Taylor:

Um, and I thought that was a really nice way of describing it.

Lucy Taylor:

Um, yeah, I also thought there was something really important.

Lucy Taylor:

, uh, in what he said about, you know, as a kid, he was the joke, a joker.

Lucy Taylor:

That was his kind of way of being playful.

Lucy Taylor:

And actually at some point he got shamed for that and he hid that away

Lucy Taylor:

as something that was wrong and, you know, wasn't part of, shouldn't

Lucy Taylor:

be part of life or adult life.

Lucy Taylor:

And the lovely rediscovering that and the leaning into that as his, you know, his.

Lucy Taylor:

Persona and something that he's made a living out of ultimately

Lucy Taylor:

and the transformation that it feels has gone on there.

Tzuki Stewart:

absolutely.

Tzuki Stewart:

What other reflections did you have?

Lucy Taylor:

I loved that.

Lucy Taylor:

Um, play plus.

Tzuki Stewart:

Yeah.

Lucy Taylor:

adding a bit of play to anything makes it better.

Lucy Taylor:

It's like, yeah.

Lucy Taylor:

It totally does, and also who knew public speaking was on a par with

Lucy Taylor:

death and spiders when it comes to.

Tzuki Stewart:

I know it's dark, isn't it?

Tzuki Stewart:

It is pretty scary.

Tzuki Stewart:

I, um, I love just two of the kind of really practical tips as well, this idea.

Tzuki Stewart:

You know, blocking time, scheduling time, proactively carving it out in

Tzuki Stewart:

advance to, and he said, you know, you can call it play or you can call it

Tzuki Stewart:

rest, you can call it something else.

Tzuki Stewart:

So you don't have to be precious about the labels, but, kind

Tzuki Stewart:

of not being spontaneous.

Tzuki Stewart:

I think that's really, that's, that's something that can feel

Tzuki Stewart:

more realistic, as I say, right?

Tzuki Stewart:

I am just gonna carve out this 30 minutes or this hour to do something, you

Tzuki Stewart:

know, on Thursday afternoon for myself.

Tzuki Stewart:

And the trickiness, as you said, was honoring that as you would

Tzuki Stewart:

honor a commitment to someone else.

Tzuki Stewart:

How do you honor the commitment to yourself?

Tzuki Stewart:

So that's not easy, but I just love that really practical element of.

Tzuki Stewart:

Proactively, intentionally scheduling that time with yourself to do

Tzuki Stewart:

what you need to do, and also the practical element of having almost

Tzuki Stewart:

like a prop where you were working.

Tzuki Stewart:

So he said here you had kind like a, you know, a little, some Lego.

Tzuki Stewart:

I love how Americans come, Legos.

Tzuki Stewart:

Have you noticed this?

Tzuki Stewart:

Legos is always plural.

Tzuki Stewart:

We speak to our lovely US comrades.

Tzuki Stewart:

Um, so it's just that idea of kind of when you are like noodling on something

Tzuki Stewart:

to let your hands absent mindedly play with something and to have a kind

Tzuki Stewart:

of prop that you can just dip into, dip out to, um, dip out of rather.

Tzuki Stewart:

I like that idea as well.

Tzuki Stewart:

Just not there for any particular purpose, but just, yeah, absent

Tzuki Stewart:

mindedly, let your, let your fingers wander while you need on something.

Tzuki Stewart:

I like that idea of having a prop.

Tzuki Stewart:

Thank you so much for listening today.

Tzuki Stewart:

If you enjoy this episode, please do rate and review as it really

Tzuki Stewart:

helps us to reach other listeners.

Tzuki Stewart:

We are releasing episodes every two weeks, so do hit subscribe

Tzuki Stewart:

to ensure that you don't miss out on more playful inspiration.

Tzuki Stewart:

Don't forget, you can find us@www.whyplayworks.com or

Tzuki Stewart:

wherever you get your podcasts.

Tzuki Stewart:

If you'd like to join our growing community of People United by the idea

Tzuki Stewart:

of play at work, you can sign up to the Playworks Collective on our homepage

Lucy Taylor:

If you have any ideas for future episodes, topics you'd love

Lucy Taylor:

to hear about, guest suggestions or questions about the work we do with

Lucy Taylor:

organizations, we'd love to hear from you.

Lucy Taylor:

Your feedback really matters to us, so please drop us a

Lucy Taylor:

line@hellowhyplayworks.com.

Lucy Taylor:

We'll be back in a fortnight with a brand new guest and we hope you'll join us.

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