July 30th, 1975. Former Teamsters Union President James R. Hoffa is scheduled for a 2PM meeting at the Machus Red Fox Restaurant in Bloomfield Township, Michigan with reported Mafia members, Anthony Provenzano and Anthony Giacalone. At 2:15pm he calls his wife and expresses his annoyance that no one is there. At 3:27pm, he calls his friend Louis Linteau and says he was stood up. After that, no one hears from him again.

In a mystery that has never officially been solved by law enforcement and has been the basis of massive speculation as well as the source of a million late night comedy jokes over the years. Jimmy Hoffa, one of the most well-known figures of all time in organized labor politics, just vanished without a trace.

He wasn’t an angel. Hoffa had already been convicted of fraud and illegal wiretapping and had served several years in prison, and he several of his associates had admitted that they were in the mafia. In order to unify local trucking unions and rise to power, he had to cut deals with organized crime figures who were central to the running of the unions. He was the focus of Robert F. Kennedy’s corruption investigations in the early 1960s. Jimmy Hoffa was surrounded by criminals and eventually he angered the wrong people. But who did he anger and how did he disappear? That’s the mystery.

And the story is back in the news because it’s one of the central tales in Martin Scorcese’s new film, The Irishman , coming out this month. It’s based on the life of Frank Sheeran, a union leader, Hoffa associate, and a hit man for the Bufalino crime family. Sheeran claims to have killed Hoffa in his book, I Heard You Paint Houses (which was the code phrase people used to approach him to perform an assassination.) While that’s one theory of what happened to him, we delve into far-out ones in this episode. Some topics we cover:

• Jimmy Hoffa and his potential involvement of the assassination of John F. Kennedy
• Hoffa’s strange presidential pardon from Richard Nixon
• Hoffa’s daughter’s psychic premonition of her father’s death
• How h ypnosis was used in searching for Jimmy Hoffa
• A strange alien encounter in 1978 where a man said he heard Jimmy Hoffa’s voice
• Various psychic theories about what happened to him
• The blood evidence found that links Frank Sheeran to Hoffa’s death

Welcome to See You on the Other Mike, where the world of

the mysterious collides with the world of entertainment.

A discussion of art, music, movies, spirituality,

the weird and self discovery. And

now, your hosts, musicians and entertainers

who have their own weakness for the weird, Mike and

Wendy from the band Sunspot. Episode 268,

the search for Jimmy Hoffa from UFOs

to psychics, to the new movie The Irishman.

Wendy, how you feeling this morning? I'm feeling great, Mike.

Thanks. How are you? I'm a little tired after,

you've been in the van for 8 hours yesterday on the way back from

Louisville, Kentucky. Yeah. Yeah. We spent a lot of time in the

van this weekend, but we also spent a lot of time at the Imaginarium

Convention. Absolutely. That was super fun. That was our first time,

crashing the Imaginarium Convention, full of

science fiction authors, fantasy authors. It was really cool to

meet so many creative people. Definitely. And we got to try something a

little bit different. We kinda had our own little, storytelling

session where we talked about some of the songs from the podcast. That's right. It

was like VH 1 Storytellers, except we weren't washed up.

Hopefully not yet. Right. Hopefully not yet. Right. Because if

I've peaked already, this is I'm gonna be really sad. But,

yes, we met a lot of great people and, if you're listening to this for

the first time because you saw us either at our storytelling performance

or one of the panels that we were in. Hello, and thank you for subscribing.

Yes. It's really nice to meet you. And we did have a good time talking

to everybody about all the cool books that people are putting out,

fantastical ideas. I think I got at least 3 or 4 new podcast

ideas from talking to people this weekend. Oh, isn't that the best? Yeah. I mean

It'd be fantastic. Yeah. Because a lot of people were basing some of their fiction

books on, like, real life paranormal stories, and they kinda take that

they adjust that a little bit, and then they developed a novel out of it.

And so it was interesting to hear, when people would talk about, like,

oh, I I heard this ghost story when I was a kid, and now I

can make a, you know, book out of it. Okay. Well, we wanna hear about

the real life thing and then probably check out the book. Exactly. Yeah. There was

a lot of googling done on our drive home last night Right. Of

things people had told us about hauntings and different stories and legends

from their own home areas. And there were people from all over the place, so

it was a real nice variety of stories there. Absolutely. The other thing

too is meeting so many interesting people from the South. I always Mike that

because it's a region, I'm not, like, that well traveled in.

You know, I spent a lot of time like, you spend a lot of time

going through the South Mike I'm going to Florida as a kid, but it hasn't

been until we've been adults and going there with our band that I got to

spend more time there and meet people. So it's a whole new world of

legends to get introduced to. It is. And, also, Mike, you got to meet one

of our patrons in person for the first time. That's right. Chuck Martin,

fantastic Patreon. He's always got cool ideas for the podcast, and,

it was a real pleasure actually, Mike, meeting someone in meat space. So

we wanna thank our Patreon member, Chuck, for coming out to the conference

and hanging out with us. And we also wanna thank Steven and Holly from

Imaginarium and Scott Marcus who interviewed us during

our show on Friday night. Right. Yeah. No. You know, you guys made it a

really good time. So, thanks for all the fun. All the new people,

thanks for listening, and let's start talking about weird

stuff. Wendy, when you think about Jimmy

Hoffa, what do you think of? I really just think of a mystery

that's talked about all the time and his disappearance, basically.

And in fact, I didn't know very much about him at all.

I guess I'm a little uneducated, but I had to dig in and do

some reading in preparation for this episode because I realized that I didn't know that

much about the guy other than his disappearance. Right.

I think about the movie with Jack Nicholson as Jimmy

Hoffa, directed by Danny DeVito

Ah, okay. That came out, Wendy some years

ago because my parents went to the Milwaukee premiere of

it. And so they came back with some tchotchkes from the premiere.

And so I wore the button that said, like, I'm a friend of Jimmy Hoffa

or whatever. I had a picture of Jack Nicholson dressed up as Jimmy Hoffa, and

I wore that button on my jean jacket for a few weeks before we came

out. It's just one of those ridiculous things

That's awesome. When that movie came out. It you know, it also makes me think

of just the turmoil of the 19 sixties.

And when you think about when we have conspiracies and we

have, Mike, government

shake ups and things like that now, they they don't seem quite as

deadly as they did in the 19 sixties. Yeah.

Because, you know, this idea because, like, Jimmy Hoffa is implicated in

organized crime, in the assassination of of John

f Kennedy. And so I remember hearing about that as a kid, and you just

think, like, the 19 sixties, people are getting you know, like, presidents are

getting assassinated. We're having a war. People just like,

are disappeared and never seen again kinda thing. It

just it seems like a more dangerous time to be alive. I

remember that. That's true. So when I think about Jimmy Hoffa, that's the kind of

thing I think about, in that Mike like what was going on

back then? Mike, this was just in our parents' lifetimes, and people were doing crazy

stuff to each other. So let's talk a little bit today. We wanna give you

guys a little bit of information about Jimmy Hoffa because chances are

you're gonna go see that new Martin Scorsese film that comes

out, November 1st, The Irishman.

And people are gonna see it because it's Robert De Niro,

and who plays actually Jimmy Hoffa is gonna be Al

Pacino, and then Joe Pesci is in it too. And Joe Pesci hasn't been in

anything forever. So what it's gonna do is it,

it reunites Al Pacino and Robert De Niro,

who, you know, most famously were in heat together as, you

know, diametrically opposed forces. And then it brings

back Joe Pesci, who him and Robert De Niro and Martin Scorsese made

Goodfellas, which people think is the greatest gangster movie of all time. Right.

And I, you know, I I love that movie too. And so it's gonna be

a huge hit, but the thing is I believe it's going to Netflix after it's

in the theater for a couple of days or maybe a couple of weeks, whatever,

and it's gonna go right to Netflix. So everybody's gonna get a chance to watch

it without even gonna go to the movie theater. Oh, cool. So this is

kind of from the reviews. I do not think they've had the paranormal

aspects of Jimmy Hoffa's disappearance. So this episode is gonna help

you become more familiar with the with the man, Jimmy Hoffa, as

well as, the different theories of what happened to

him after he disappeared. So,

just wanted to get into that because this new flick's coming out,

and this is one of those things where, like, he's the butt of a joke

all the time. Uh-huh. You know? People say, like, oh, he ends up

with Jimmy Hoffa or whatever because he's just someone who in

the modern era I mean, a famous person who,

was in the, you know, in the middle of the week or whatever was just

never seen again. Disappeared on July 30, 1975.

He was, 62 years old, born on Valentine's

Day on, 1913. So

Valentine's Day, baby. And he was born in Brazil,

Indiana, which I have no idea where that is, but I'm sure we

drove through it this weekend. Right. And so

born in Brazil, Indiana from an early age. I mean, he's really

young, and he's, like, working in a grocery store. And this

is in the late 1920s, early 1930s, and this is, like, the

height of the union movement. Right. So, you know, this

is where, like, this is where, like, people could hire union busters. Like, they

would hire guards and stuff to go in. And if the union guys went

on strike, they'd pay for a group of, like, paramilitary, basically,

to beat the beat their own workers up. So, you know,

if you're wondering why unions versus corporations were

important in the 20th century, it was because things would

get violent often. Yeah. And so, you know, even

before I read this, if you asked me what the Teamsters were because this is

something we fear a lot. I believe I have a Teamsters Union,

Mike lodge or something like that 2 blocks from my house,

right? So it's like, oh, yeah, it's a Teamsters Union. I had no

idea what they actually did. Mike, they don't have the auto workers union. You know

what they are. The plumbers union, you know who those guys are. But I'm like,

the Teamsters, what the hell does that mean? Truck

drivers. Ah, okay. Okay? So if you guys are

wondering The lifeblood of the country. I'm sure you've heard the term

Teamsters, and you might not know what they did before because maybe you're not a

truck driver, like I'm not. Even though I did do

Mike 7th grade technical education paper for

career day or whatever on truck driving. So I

feel like I should've known a little bit more about it. Those are the

Teamsters. And, you know, from an right from the,

the beginning of that particular union, the Teamsters seem to

have some involvement Uh-oh. With organized

crime. Yeah. I mean, because, first of all, the team's union

is massive. By the time Jimmy Hoffa gets he's not even a truck driver,

but he's involved like, be because of where he was working, he

became a leader in the union leadership, and he was

representing labor, and he did it really well.

He was, like, inspirational to different union employees.

And so in 1933, he's invited to

become an organizer for the Detroit Teamsters, even though

I mean, I think he can drive or whatever. Obviously, he can drive. But he

does it, and he's successful at it. And by the time he becomes an organizer

for the Teamsters, they have 75,000 members.

So, you know, this is a major organization. And

so he is working to consolidate the

like, all these local union groups into, like, a national

organization. So it starts at 75,000 members. Within a

couple of years, it's a 170,000 members. By

1940, it's 420,000. And then by the time you get to

the 19 fifties, you have over a 1000000 Teamsters Wow. In the United

States. So, obviously, the work that he's doing,

in, like, creating a strong union, he's super successful about

it. Mhmm. But also, to become successful

and, in order to, you know,

make deals with all these local local

union organizations. He has to deal with

the other people that they're working with. Uh-oh. And that's

mobsters. And he's gotta make accommodations and arrangements

with all these gangsters, because they're heavily

involved in, you know, in the trucking business. And

it's it's all all different kinds of things. When you talk about the crime that

could happen if you're involved with trucking, it's, you

know, stealing stuff and then having the insurance pay for it.

Because let's say they say like, Oh, yeah. Well, at 5 o'clock on

Tuesday, your truck is going to be stopped because they know exactly what's in every

truck. Right. And the route that it will be on. Right.

And you know, instead of actually having to hold up

the truck or, you know, rob them or something like

that, they can, like, cut out the

middleman or at least cut out the dangerous violent part of it Mhmm. By

arranging for the truck to be, quote, unquote, robbed and things like that.

It's also, with gangsters too. You know,

one of the things they did is that so gangsters need a paycheck because they

have to pay income tax. Right? Yeah. Like, a gangster needs a w

two at the end of the year, or otherwise, the feds start getting like, what's

going on here? How does this guy own this place? And so, unions

are the perfect place to do that because, okay. Well,

this guy's, you know, oh, it's just he's one of our employees of the union,

or, he's he's working for the trucking company. Well, what does he do?

Well, he comes in and organizes things around the office and stuff.

But that's the thing is so, the union

gives, a chance also for people whose

main job is crime. Get a get a w

two. And so, this is a different kind of,

corruption, that's in a lot of these local

organizations. And so, I mean, I don't think Jimmy Hoffa ever

has a choice. Like, he may not be a a criminal himself or take

bribes or kickbacks or things like that, but he has to make

deals. I mean, I don't I don't know. One interesting thing

I learned when we were doing the research on this is that Jimmy Hoffa spent

a lot of time in prison. Yeah. And I guess I didn't realize that

since it's been, like, 27 years since I saw the movie with Jack

Nicholson. But you you think that, like, once a guy goes to

prison or once he's convicted of a crime that they're not gonna, you know,

make him the Teamsters president again. But it doesn't matter. He go he comes back

from prison. He's still popular. Mhmm. So he's going through this.

He, you know, turns the Teamsters Union into one of the largest

unions in the United States, and he's, you know, become

super powerful in the 19 fifties. In fact, because he

runs the pension fund for all these truckers, he's basically

got 100 of 1,000,000 of dollars in the bank.

And that then is the next, kind of corruption

that they get into because he's involved with

the, the building of Las Vegas. Yes. Right?

The gangsters need some loans. And then, if he

loans them some of the money to be working on the, you know, different

buildings in Las Vegas, then they're gonna use the union trucking

companies to haul all the materials in the middle of the

desert, you know, to build the entertainment capital. So

right in the middle of 19 fifties, when they start building up Las Vegas,

there you have, Jimmy Hoffa controlling 100 of 1,000,000 of

dollars in the pension account, and then he can use it as a bank

to cut more deals, to make more money for the union, and at the

same time, enriching guys like Bugsy Siegel and the different

gangsters that, ended up creating Las Vegas. So, I mean,

all this is super there's nothing paranormal about

it. Maybe true crime, but this doesn't seem Mike, well, true crime,

but nobody's murdered. Not yet, my friend. Not yet. Wait for

it. Well, I mean, the thing is his the

first major criminal investigations into the corruption of the Teamsters

Union happens in 1957. And one of the

guys who's a counsel on this subcommittee, it's called the McClellan Senate

hearings, and one of the guys who's a legal counsel on the subcommittee,

working on the corruption of the union is Robert f

Kennedy. Okay. And so they

can't get any convictions or anything like that, out of these

original senate hearings. And it's just it's the first investigation. And Robert f

Kennedy, he's frustrated by the fact that they can't do much about it.

He keeps getting stonewalled. Well, 3 years later, his brother is

elected president of the United States, and he becomes attorney general.

Alright then. So what happens is, I mean, Robert f

Kennedy goes after organized crime in the US.

And when you go after organized crime, you're gonna go after one of their biggest

like, one of the richest sources of money for organized crime,

the Teamsters Union. And his squad of prosecutors

and investigators, was called the quote, unquote, Get

Hoffa Squad. Wow. Right. So you find that, I mean, Jimmy

Hoffa is becoming targeted. I mean, not necessarily, like,

targeted to be killed or whatever, but, you

know, targeted as an example of, corruption

in the US. And that's exactly what they're going for. In fact, in, Robert

f Kennedy wrote a book called The Enemy Within, the McClellan Committee's

Crusade Against Jimmy Hoffa and Corrupt Labor Unions first published

in 1960. So the attorney general of the United States,

writes a book called The Enemy Within, mentions Jimmy Hoffa by name in

it, describes the Teamsters Union as the most powerful

institution in the United States besides the US government

itself. Wow. And so, you know, obviously,

Robert Kennedy is interested in taking these guys out, calling them corrupt

labor unions. Even the, the former president of

the AFL CIO, who the Teamsters were part of the AFL

CIO for a while, and Jimmy Hoffa was instrumental in, like,

leaving the a f the Teamsters leaving that organization. He

called, the the president of the AFL CIO, George Meany, called Jimmy

Hoffa organized labor's number one enemy. Well, this is the

president of the one of the largest, unions in the United States,

and then the guy from the other largest union in the United States is calling

him organized labor's number one enemy because he's bringing down so

much, heat on the corruption of the union.

So, I mean, this is the thing. Robert f Kennedy is going for them.

They're trying to, like, arrest different organized crime

figures, and this is where Jimmy Hoffa is

thought of as maybe instrumental,

in the assassination of Robert Kennedy I'm sorry,

of of John f Kennedy. Because when Robert Kennedy was killed,

8 years later, Jimmy Hoffa was already in prison. But,

you know, it it's interesting. So we talk about the movie coming out, The

Irishman. And The Irishman is about, this

guy named Frank Sheeran, and, he's

somebody that had worked, you know, had worked with Jimmy Hoffa a lot.

And he was basically a, mob

hitman, and his job is to, you know, murder

people for the mob. In in fact, here was

the, here was the code phrase they used to use

when you were saying, like, okay, if you're a hitman

or I hear you're a hitman, the code word they used to use is, I

heard you paint houses. So you meet somebody

and you say, I heard you paint houses. They're like, oh, yes. I do. The

problem is is if you actually go into a house painter. Right. Then they're

like, yes. Yes. I do. I do paint houses. Really?

Wow. I didn't invest. I'm looking for a job. And then all of a sudden,

they get a gun in their hand. They got a shoes on me. So, you

know, but he himself like

Frank Sheeran, the guy that, they're talking about, that this this

Irishman movie's about, he mentions

that they think that, John f Kennedy was

assassinated by mobsters. And and he says that it's

because Robert Kennedy was going after the mob so much,

they knew that if they killed John f Kennedy, well, there would be a

new attorney general appointed when the new when Lyndon Johnson

took over. And so that original,

you know, a couple of different guys got together, and you said there were Mike,

you know, shooters than, Lee Harvey Oswald

and, like, you know, the gunshots coming from the grassy knoll and stuff like that.

Frank Sheeran had said, you know, that was that

was our Mob hitman guys Mhmm. That, made sure

that John f Kennedy was killed. So, I mean, Jimmy Hoffa is implicated

right away, in the murder of John f Kennedy when people

talk about the mob, because Robert

Kennedy had it out, for JFK. So

he's implicated, in in the assassination. A couple

of years later, Jimmy Hoffa does,

go to trial for corruption charges, for wiretapping

and fraud and, like, the the stuff they they could get them

on. They got them on these, you

know, smaller charges and couldn't get them in, like, super,

like, stuff that would give them, like, 20 years or whatever. But

there's an author named Dan Moldea, and he wrote a book called The Hoffa

Wars. And he said that I was the first

to allege that Hoffa, Carlos Marcello, and Santos Treficante

had arranged and executed the president's murder. These are mob

boss guys. He said a year after the publication of my book, the US

House Select Committee on Assassinations concluded that Hoffa, Marcelo, and

Trafficante had the, quote, motives, means, and opportunity

to commit this crime. Now,

also, Frank Sheeran, when he was saying that he was part

of the Kennedy plot, and he admits this to a former prosecutor

that had gained his trust at the end of his life. So in the in

The Irishman, the movie is gonna be from the,

the viewpoint of Frank Sheeran. And, the author, the

prosecutor that that Frank had admitted to, he says, Frank's role was

unwitting. He was given rifles by Genovese Capo,

Tony Provenzano, and we'll talk more about Tony Provenzano in a

little bit, to deliver to an airstrip in Baltimore

to another Genovese made man. Genovese is a crime family.

Frank had no idea why until Jack Ruby shot Oswald.

Frank knew Ruby and knew that Hoffa knew Jack Ruby,

but Frank asked no questions of anyone.

So that's an interesting thing, that idea that, okay. Well, if

Jimmy Hoffa knew Frank, Jack Ruby, Jack Ruby is the

guy that shot Lee Harvey Oswald when he was

being transported, by the Texas police.

So, if you wanna get rid of your Patsy or whatever or the

guy you set up, then that's, you know, that's the perfect way to do

it. And so, you know, that kind of thing, also,

one of the guys, one of the, one of the crime bosses,

there he eventually went to Texarkana Federal Prison, and he

had said that, he had told his medical

attendants, like when he was in the prison hospital, that he had

met New York with a guy named Provenzano, and they would soon

be celebrating because they were gonna get that smiling mother

effer Kennedy in Dallas. Mhmm.

Right. And so then you've, you know, you've got this guy that the the,

the house committee is talking about, this Carlos Marcello.

And he also said he implied implicated himself when he was

sick and, like, talking like crazy to the prison hospital attendants,

that he was involved in in the death. So, this idea that Jimmy

Hoffa was involved in JFK's death just makes things, you

know, more complicated. But, alright, Jimmy Hoffa goes to

prison in the late 19 sixties. They finally get him on on these charges.

Well, Richard Nixon pardons him. How

convenient. Right? So he's convicted in Chattanooga,

Tennessee for the attempted bribery, bribery of a grand

juror. So he's trying to, affect the outcome of a case, probably

paying a guy off, and he's gonna be using the Teamsters Pension Fund to

pay that guy off. So now they can get him for improper use

of the Teamsters Pension Fund. And then also they find

these pension fund loans to different guys in organized crime,

and then he gets all this prison sentence. So what happens?

1971, December 23rd. So Richard Nixon

kind of coats this in a Christmas, in

a Christmas setting. Number 1, he does it when the news cycle is gonna be

completely slow during Christmas. Number 2, it's like in

the spirit of, you know, the spirit of the season, he

commutes Jimmy Hoffa's sentence less than 5 years into the 13 years he's

supposed to do, to time served. Wow.

Following his release, Hoffa's awarded a Teamsters pension of $1,700,000

delivered in a onetime lump sum payment. So

Hoffa gets out of prison, then gets his entire lump sum

pension of $1,700,000. What

happens in 1972? The Teamsters Union

endorses Richard Nixon for president instead of George McGovern.

Now we don't talk about politics on this show very often,

but unions do not usually

support Republican candidates.

So, you know, this idea that all of a sudden Jimmy Hoffa is

left out of prison, he gets the Teamsters pension, and

the the Teamsters union supports a Republican candidate in

1972. Well, alright then. That

that's not suspicious at all. Right. So but one thing

is that, Nixon pardoned him, but he said,

there was a condition imposed on the release. And the release said you cannot engage

in union activities until March 1980. Mike, so

Nixon gave Hoffa, like, a special condition that he

couldn't just go back to his former life. And because of presidential pardons,

you can basically do that. That's that seems like a weird executive power to

me. Yeah. It does. Like, doesn't that seem like a kingly power? It does.

Very awesome. Be Mike, they can pardon whoever they want. I can override whatever

justice has occurred here. Right. Like he right. The

president can override, like, the rest of

the judicial system. Right. I never even thought about that, like

presidential pardons. Like, no, a jury of his peers put him in prison for several

years and the president's just like, nah, he's gonna help me get

elected in 1970. Undo. Undo. Right.

Right, that's crazy. So what happens is

okay. Jimmy Hoffa, he then wants to start

getting involved, in the Teamsters again, and he's kinda coming into

it sideways. He's, you know, he

is legally saying that Richard Nixon didn't have the

constitutional right to put a special condition on his release,

and he's having lawyers doing it. And then he

starts trying to get involved in the Teamsters again. And this is starting to be

in, like, 1974. He's interested in getting his old

job back, which is president of the Teamsters. But he does it at the

local level to to start going out. Then he's working

on an autobiography. He's basically now that he's out of

prison, he's trying to get some of his old power and money

back. And in order to do that, he

had to meet different mafia members to kinda

get some deals and cut some deals, but they weren't

crazy about bringing Jimmy Hoffa back to the forefront.

He I mean, he had taken a lot of heat. He had gone to prison.

He is a lightning rod for corruption charges, and

so they're not gonna be on his team when he come wants to come back

as president. So, in 1975,

Hoffa asks this guy named Tony Provenzano,

who we just talked about as the guy that told Frank Sheeran to give this

other guy guns, in, like, 19 in

1963 right before JFK was assassinated,

he asked him for help in supporting his return to power,

and Provenzano is completely opposed to it. In

fact, he threatens Hoffa and says he might he's gonna pull out his guts and

kidnap his granddaughters. That's how classy you got

got it planned Provenzano is. Right. And so

the next thing that happens is because Provenzano

says that stuff, and Hoffa wants to get back into power,

he starts cooperating a little bit with investigations against some of these mafia

figures who will not support him into his, search

for power again back in in the Teamsters.

Another guy, another Detroit mafia guy that he gets

involved with is a guy named Anthony Giacalone. Oh, man. I

love these names. First of all, I feel like I'm saying an Italian cheese

every time. Anthony Provenzano. Anthony Giacalone.

I really I feel like I'm hanging out an episode of Sopranos. But,

Anthony Giacalone, he's trying, to

make peace between Jimmy Hoffa and this Provenzano guy.

And so he sets up a variety of meetings in order to get them

together to try and smooth things out because anytime there's any

kind of, war or battle between

criminal figures, the police start getting interested. So there's 2

guys, Anthony Provenzano, Anthony Giacalone. July 30,

1975, Jimmy Hoffa is going to a meeting at

2 PM at a place called the Macca's Red Fox restaurant,

and it's, in Bloomfield Township, which is a suburb of Detroit.

Hoffa knows the Red Fox well because it was the site of the the

wedding reception for his son. So he's been there.

His office calendar just writes, tg2

pm red fox. That's the thing.

And so he goes he, calls his

wife from a pay phone, right by the red fox, and he said, where

the hell is Tony Giacalone? I'm being stood up. So

15, there's nobody there. His wife his wife tells him that

nobody called. He says, I'll be home at 4 o'clock. Then

there's witnesses that see him standing by his car, pacing the parking lot.

2 men see him emerge from the red fox. After the lunch, they recognize

him. They stop to chat with him really. They shake his hands.

Then we had 3:27 PM, an hour and a half after the meeting's supposed to

start. He calls one of his friends and says

that once again, Gia Coloni was late. He goes like this.

That dirty son of a bitch, Tony Jox, set this meeting up and he's an

hour and a half late. His friend tells him to calm

down, stop by his office on the way home, and that's the last

time anybody talked to him. Alright?

The next day, Hoffa's Mike, who hadn't heard from him since

2:15 the day before, 7 AM, she calls her son and daughter

by telephone and says your dad's not home.

And the kids are about to come over. Interestingly enough

no. So his daughter, who now is a judge

she's like a you know, she works as a labor judge in Missouri.

So she gets a call from her mother at 7:30 AM that says your father

didn't come home last night. This is from the Washington Post, June

17, 1991. They have an interview with both of Hoffa's children.

And she says that, as she's in the plane on

the way back home to Detroit, she closes her eyes, and she sees a vision

of him slumped over. She sees him from the back. He had on

a black short sleeve polo shirt. She said she couldn't see blood or

holes, just saw her father slumped over. She says, I saw it

later in the paper, the description of what he was wearing. It was a black

short sleeve polo shirt. No one told me. There was no way I

could have heard it at a time. So that's a

little interesting that she's got a vision of her father. And she

she in fact went and Mike now that she's a judge and everything,

she's done Freedom of Information Act requests to try to

get more information about eyewitnesses and things when they've seen their

dad. And she says, you know, they get responses that the FBI is

still working this case and there's indeed an ongoing investigation. Now this

is 1991, so it's 16 years after he disappeared. And,

you know, they're they're not giving her access to those

files because it's they're not subject to Freedom of Information Act requests

because the investigation is still ongoing. So that that drives her

crazy. Understandably. And and funny

enough, Jimmy Hoffa's son is the president of

the Teamsters now. Right? Y'all followed his lead,

Yeah. The family business. He's James Hoffa junior. So Mike just like

Jimmy Hoffa never left. Right. But that's the thing. Okay. So she

has that strange vision. Interestingly

enough, just a a couple of days later, August

2nd, a source close to James R. Hoffa's

family said today that members of the family and the police had been told the

names of 2 men who mister Hoffa was supposed to have met

along with Anthony Giacalone, last Wednesday the day he

disappeared. The source said that the names had come from the employee of a

Hoffa friend who recalled them after a psychologist hired by the Hoffa

family had put them under hypnosis.

So when they're, you know, searching for them, like right

away Wendy people say they can't remember stuff, they're like, you know what? We're gonna

we're gonna send you to hypnosis. And so that's where they get

the name of, mister Provenzano.

And this this is in the New York Times, August 3, 1975.

And so they go in there, and then the police department, is coming in.

They're saying, like, okay. Well, we've been asked to see if we can talk to

mister Provenzen. I know he can possibly give us any information.

And already, a week after his death, his

daughter, Barbara Kranzer, she says that, the

police have told her that they thought they believed that,

some mafia guys might have taken him hostage, lured like, they they

lured him to their car in the pretense of talking to mister Giacalone,

and then they still have him. So this is just a week. So

they don't necessarily say he's dead yet, but this is, you

know, absolutely national news. And, in this

newspaper that week of, he's disappeared. The New York Times is saying

that he was called the big man in the

Detroit mafia. So Anthony Giacalone, when

they were doing an investigation in 1963 by the police, the police called him the

big man of the Detroit mafia, but they also said that they were supposedly

friendly. So, okay. Well, what coulda

happened? Well, here's what you're gonna see in The

Irishman. Okay. Because Frank Sheeran's daughter

I mean, she even said she's Mike in 2011, she's like, my father

killed Jimmy Hoffa. And he was upset about it

because they were friends Oh, man. For a long time. Who needs

enemies when you have friends like that? Right. But he couldn't

turn down the other mafia bosses that said, like, look. You

gotta take this guy out. Wow. So, you know, when he went

out and and told the story, he said that, you know,

Frank got him in the car, took him to a local house,

and then shot him twice in the back. 2 guys were

waiting in the house and then

grabbed him, grabbed the body, put it in a body bag,

and then Frank Sheeran doesn't know where they took him after that.

So in 2018, a guy was

working on, a book and trying to get

in and discover some things, like what if Frank Sheeran's story was

true. And here's a a interesting thing they do. They go

into the house that Frank said it was at,

and they get the new owners to let them pull up the floorboards

to where Frank said they shot him. And

they did find blood there, like,

underneath the because the new owners bought the place in 1989.

The old owner in 1975 was this 80 year old woman

whose own family said she almost never was at the house. She had bought a

different house that she wanted to go to, so she was mostly at this house

the other time. And so they're Mike, if she wasn't home or she wasn't home

for weeks at a time, it wouldn't have been unusual.

So that's an, you know, that's an interesting thing that, okay, the

family confirmed that that that particular house was probably

empty. It doesn't get bought then until 1989. The new owners immediately

put, like, new floorboards over it and stuff. And then when they go into the

old floorboards, they do find some bloodstains on the

floor. Now there's no you don't have Jimmy Hoffa's

DNA because he's gone. Right. And people you know, they did

find, like, pieces of Jimmy Hoffa's hair that was saved in evidence,

from around his house and stuff, but they weren't able to get an actual

DNA sample from, you know, from the hair or anything.

But, you know, the people who were working on the

book for the Irishman do believe, you know,

Frank's claim that he killed Jimmy Hoffa in a house Yeah. In Detroit

in the summer of 1975. So that's one

investigation into it, and that's that's one place where people think Jimmy

Hoffa went. The thing is

he's been a subject of all kinds of

theories since then. There was one theory that, Jimmy Hoffa

ended up he was murdered in Detroit, but then the

mafia took him because they were building, like, Giants Stadium at the Mike.

And so that they, they, like, dropped him into the concrete mix or

whatever, his body into the concrete Mike, and that Jimmy Hoffa was really

inside the walls of Giants Stadium. Okay. That would be weird.

Yeah. But that was disproven though because they, there was, like, an

episode of Mythbusters where they went there and they tried to

they used the ground penetrating radar and they didn't find any remains. And then, I

guess, the stadium got knocked down and they during that process, they didn't find

anything either. So Okay. Okay. So he's

definitely not then. The Mythbusters found it. I trust him. Yeah. You

gotta. Because science We've

got a psychic, that says that she saw what happened

at Jimmy Hart. Oh, okay. So she says, for some

reason, the keeper of the Akashic records has given some of us the

gift of getting a glimpse into that file, and he tells us where people's bodies

are buried and who put them there. He then asks us to write about it

to prove that he's very much alive in the spirit world and has this record

of life trained on planet Earth and will not get away with anything. And he

will deal with us 1 by 1 as we finish our life here on Earth

and join him in the great beyond. So this

particular psychic, she's writing this on November 22, 2007.

She says, I saw Jimmy Hoffa come out of the VIP lounge at Detroit

Metro Airport and walk across the parking lot. I then saw a car with

3 minute drive up alongside Hoffa and drag him into the car and

drive away. The car went out to the expressway and drove to many

homes, and Hoffa at the time seemed to be going along with them as they

tried to talk to him into doing something. And I guess, at that time,

he thought they had just done an intervention to talk to him. Whatever

they were trying to get him to agree to didn't work, and the next thing

I saw was a cottage at the lake and Hoffa was there with another man.

Hoffa was then stripped down to his shorts and shot. The next thing I

saw was a car parked in a country area and many men were there with

shovels, and they took the a tarpaulin wrapped body out of the

trunk and carried it to a clump of trees where they dug a grave and

buried him. On the way to the burying spot, I looked to my right, and

I saw an old abandoned amusement park, and I heard the words Orion and

Crystal Lake. Orion and Crystal Lake, of course, are in the state of

Michigan. After I began sending this story out in the

eighties, which always disappeared without a trace, I began to get

mafia signals and publications, and the words Mike orient and crystal Mike

were mentioned. And this is how the mafia sends people, signals to

people in the press to back off. I've been told by my source

in the spirit world that Hoffa's body was buried in a housing division near

Crystal Lake, and it's doubtful it'll be found. Over the years, many

people have come forward and said they know where Hoffa's body is buried There have

been many searches and the earth has been dung up on farms and many places,

but the body has never been found. So that's what

this specific psychic had to say. She came up with that in the eighties, and

I guess, she sent stuff to newspapers. And in 2007,

eventually decided to let us all know on the Internet where she believes

Jimmy Hoffa was. K. That's good to know. Alright. August 6,

1977. You get a guy named Tom Dawson. He's

a used car salesman. He's 63 years old. He's retired. Lives in

a trailer near Pelham in Mitchell County, Georgia. Here's what he

told to the press. 10:30 AM, he walks outside with his

2 dogs as he used to do in his days off. He stops at the

home of Jimmy and Linda Colby playing with their baby, then

proceeds towards a fishing pond located behind some pines.

To get there, he crosses a pasture of approximately 40 cows,

and, he wants to see if it's gonna be nice to fish later in the

day. As he's crossing the pasture, there's a spacecraft,

a flying saucer coming suddenly like a flash between the trees that hovers

1 meter above the ground right in front of him. He said it was a

40 to 50 feet in diameter, 12 to 14 top, had a

dome at the top and a row of portholes around. It did not make any

noise and changed colors quickly. Now this to me is a classic flying saucer.

Yeah. Right? Sure sounds like it. It's got the little right. It sounds like the

guys from the Simpsons are gonna be in the in the top, like, you know,

the little aliens in the Simpsons and being there. But he said he said as

the craft was there, he was paralyzed, and he noticed that his dogs and the

cows of the pasture were also frozen, quote, unquote.

A trapdoor emerges. 5 or 7

beings come out. Couple of males, couple of females, pale skin, white like

snow. He says white like sacks of flour. Pointed

ears like mister Spock, pointed noses turned upwards, and

no neck. 1 of the men and one of the women were completely

naked and had completely hairless bodies. So I was Mike looking

at Ken and Barbie. The other three beings had

beautiful 2 piece tight fitted suits made of gleaming material with changing

bluish green hues. The 2 sexes dressed the same,

and they had silky shoes with toes directed upwards Mike a little elf

shoe or something. Yeah. The first one comes out.

Dawson thinks that's the chief. And, Mike, he

takes a step downwards carefully as if making sure that the ground is firm. He

beckons the others to follow him. And, they go, they approach him

cautiously. The chief places a skullcap

device on his head. The device had dials and lights and wires

connected to it. He said Mike a hula hoop with a dial. They made

his trousers fall and lifted his shirt for the examination. Oh, boy. Passing

the hoop above his body and around his waist, attaching small devices

like suction cups on various parts of his body, touching and poking him, and

reading the dials. Toward the end of this examination,

a loud human voice came from the inside of the saucer shouting 3 or 4

times, I am Jimmy Hoffa. Okay.

A 4th repetition was interrupted as if somebody had muted the shouting with a

hand and the voice was not heard anymore. Okay. So

he's sitting there. They're examining him. There's this hula hoop device

with dials on it going up and around his body. And then from inside the

saucer, he hears 3 or 4 times, I am Jimmy Hoffa.

I am Jimmy Hoffa. I am Jimmy Hoffa.

Okay. That's his story. The examination

finishes. The, aliens move, like, 10 feet away from him.

They start talking in high pitched, intriguing voices. He said he didn't understand their

language but thinks that he'd heard one of them say Jupiter. He

notices that 2 of the men watch him occasionally and suspect that they're talking about

him. He thinks maybe they're wondering if they should abduct him. So then

the chief passes his palm through his chest to make a goodbye

sign. They Mhmm. The Dawson says they gathered quote unquote

leaves and stuff, and, he like, they half

floated into the trap door of the saucer, closed it, and took off.

He said the saucer went up slowly up to about 25 meters altitude and

then flew away in a blink of an eye. Then all of a sudden, he

wasn't paralyzed anymore. So then he's gotta pull his pants up. Oh,

boy. And then he runs 300 yards to his trailer,

and then, you know, he says, like, spaceship is the only word he

can get out of his mouth. He can't speak. So then finally, you know, he

talked to his neighbors, the Colbys. She wipes his face with a wet rag,

and then she takes him to the hospital. And the doctors said that he'd been

he was, like, mentally and physically shaken. They

gave him a pill to calm him down and let him out later.

So, I mean, his neighbors said that he was respected in the community, hardworking,

nice, a gentleman who adored his daughter and wasn't known as a prankster or anything

like that. Ufologists,

people came over and said they were MUFOC members, so that's probably like a 19

seventies organization, maybe a precursor to MUFON.

They come in. They say they're from Mason County, Georgia. They take ground samples and

radiation measurements. But the next door neighbor woman,

she's like, I don't think they look like Georgians to me. She said they had

olive olive colored skin and a foreign

glance, which I guess means they might have looked foreign,

or non, I guess, Caucasian, but people have speculated that they were

visited by the men in black after the encounter.

The big thing was is the Jimmy Hoffa part

seemed to get all the skeptics. That's what kind of

yeah. You know? He

didn't go to the police, but the chief the chief of the

police at the time, even 30 years later, remembers,

the story. He's like, oh, yeah. No. I remember that Dawson said that. And, you

know, Dawson even said he didn't expect people to believe him, saying he wouldn't believe

it if it didn't happen to him. He said he hadn't been crazy, hadn't been

drinking, and he'd never had anything like that before or after.

So the thing is Jimmy Hoffa

might not be actually, in either the

Giants stadium or he might not be, somewhere under the

ground in Michigan. He might be out in the stars.

Yeah. Because that would explain why he's never been found.

I Mike, it's one possible explanation.

Right. Where'd he go? What happened to him? I think we know

what happened to him. But there have been a lot of

leads to various people who think they know where he is and he's

never, you know, they follow-up on all of them, and he's yet to be found.

So You know, I think the probably the the one that I

believe probably is, the one we're gonna see in this movie, The Irishman

coming out, Frank Sheeran Yeah. Doing it at the behest of these other

mob organizers. You know, I did not realize that you could be,

like, in charge of a union, an organization of a 1000000 people in the

US, be constantly under investigation and still be in such

a, you know, a position of power, like Jimmy Hoffa

was. And, you know, his daughter, she doesn't think of

him as a criminal. You know? She's like, he was a magical dad. He was

a wonderful man. She's like, he was gone a lot because he was working. But

she said Wendy was with you, he really was with you. And

she said that, you know, I'm sure even people like George

Bush aren't proud of every kind of person that

they, have had to hang out with in their lives.

Mhmm. And that her father was the same. Alright. So we

don't know what's gonna happen in Jimmy Hoffa, but it's gonna be fun to see,

Al Pacino play him. And the other thing too Yeah. Is in the movie, what's

interesting is they're using all the de aging technology. Oh, wow.

That's wild. You know, I really first saw the good the the first de aging

technologies did you remember Tron Legacy? Do you see the the Tron sequel?

No. I didn't see it. It's not great, but it's not bad.

But it's it's got, Jeff Bridges as a young man. It's got

Jeff Bridges as an old man and Jeff Bridges as a young man. And so

it's really pretty cool. That was the first time I saw the deaging technology, and

that was maybe, you know, 8 or 9 years ago. And that was and and

since then, the deaging technology has been used all the time.

In Captain Marvel that came out earlier this year, they deaged Samuel L.

Jackson to how he looked in the 19 nineties. Oh my gosh.

They do it with, Michael,

Michael Douglas. Yeah, Kurt Douglas' son. They do it with Michael Douglas in Mike

Ant Man and the Wasp to be like here's how Michael Douglas would look like

in the 1970s. And now they're doing that with

Al Pacino and Joe Pesci and Robert De Niro as we get the story from

Jimmy Hoffa and Frank Sheeran from, you know, the

1940s 50s all the way up to the 19

seventies. So I think that's gonna be a lot of fun, and I just

hope they get to show the, you know, the encounter that Dawson had

with the UFOs and we get to hear Al Pacino. Because what he'd be, he'd

be Mike, I am Jimmy Hoffa. I am Jimmy Hoffa. I am Jimmy

oh. You know, whatever. I'm a chicken hawk. You know, I it's hard to think

of Al Pacino now when he talks because I always think of him as from

Scent of a Woman or whatever where he just sounds like Foghorn

Leghorn the entire movie. Whenever whenever I pitch him talking,

I'm like, ah, a chicken hawk. Anyway

Alright. So we'll see what happens with the mystery of Jimmy

Hoffa, and, that's the inspiration for this

week's song, The Disappeared.

When I say your name, there's no

answer on the way. I

forget you were erased because

you were here one day,

and it's almost like I

imagined. It's a mystery

how you

existed. Just a fantasy, a

phantom limb that it shows me.

Just a missing piece of meat,

Another sailor lost at sea,

vanished and abandoned.

It's a mystery how you disappeared

from my history. Uh-oh.

It's like you never existed.

Uh-oh. It's like you never existed.

Thank you for listening to today's episode. You can find us

online at othersidepodcast.com. Until next

Mike. See you on the other side. Hey.

Thank you so much for listening to this episode. And before we wrap it up

completely, I'd like to extend some gratitude to the See You on

the Other Side Patreon community. If you'd like to be a member of our

Patreon community, you can do that by visiting other Mike podcast dot com

slash donate, and you can join us for as little as just a couple bucks

a month. Now, we do have one member who is at a level where he

gets a shout out every single episode, and that is the awesome

doctor Ned. So doctor Ned, thank you so much for being such an amazing

supporter of See You on the Other Side and Sunspot.

Again, thank you for listening and I hope you have a wonderful weird week.

First of all, I feel like I'm saying an Italian cheese every time. Anthony

Provenzano. Anthony Giacalone. I really I

feel like I'm hanging out in episode of Sopranos.