Artwork for podcast Supply Chain Now
Reverse Logistics in the Spotlight: Innovators Turning Returns Into Revenue
Episode 1490 • 8th October 2025 • Supply Chain Now • Supply Chain Now
00:00:00 00:43:18

Share Episode

Shownotes

In this episode of Supply Chain Now, host Scott Luton sits down with two industry leaders shaping the future of reverse logistics and circular supply chains. Joining the conversation are Sean Cleland, Vice President of Mobility and Asset Recovery at B-Stock, and Rich Bulger, Founder and Chief Circularity Officer at All Things Circular.

Sean shares how B-Stock has pioneered the secondary market for retailers and brands, using data and AI to transform returns from a tactical afterthought into a strategic advantage. He explores how mobile technology sets the pace for the broader supply chain, why retailers like Best Buy are rethinking refurbished and resale programs, and how companies are shifting toward proactive planning and insourcing to better manage reverse flows.

Rich reflects on his journey from building billion-dollar trade-in programs at Verizon and Cisco to launching All Things Circular, a platform dedicated to education, collaboration, and innovation in reverse logistics. He highlights the evolution of returns as a revenue driver, the urgent need for new training and curricula, and the importance of circular thinking in addressing a $1.6 trillion challenge.

Together, Sean and Rich offer a candid look at where reverse logistics is headed, the role of AI in predicting value and shaping contracts, and how leaders can rethink returns as an opportunity for growth, sustainability, and impact. 

Jump into the conversation:

(00:00) Intro

(01:38) Interview with Sean Cleland from B-Stock

(02:55) B-Stock's role in reverse logistics

(04:02) Trends in mobile tech and returns management

(08:15) The importance of data and AI

(11:52) Interview with Rich Bulger from All Things Circular

(13:13) Rich Bulger's journey and insights

(21:56) Introduction to circular platforms

(25:05) The evolution of Going Circular

(27:46) Viewing feedback as blessings for improvement

(31:01) The importance of reverse logistics education

(35:35) Impact of returns and circular logistics

Resources:

This episode was hosted by Scott W. Luton and produced by Trisha Cordes, Joshua Miranda, and Amanda Luton. For additional information, please visit our dedicated show page at: https://supplychainnow.com/reverse-logistics-spotlight-innovators-turning-returns-revenue-1490

Transcripts

[:

[00:00:20] Scott W. Luton: Now on this episode, we feature a conversation with Sean Cleland from B-Stock, who's doing some really cool, innovative things in the reverse world. In fact, I'd argue that they were an early mover here in the modern reverse in return space. I also catch up with my good friend, Rich Bulger. Who has done some really big things in industry and continues to do so via his company.

[:

[00:01:13] Scott W. Luton: Hey, good morning, good afternoon, good evening, wherever you may be.

[:

[00:01:36] Scott W. Luton: And I'm here with my newest, best friend, Sean Cleland, vice President of Mobility and Asset Recovery. With B-Stock. Sean, how you doing? Very good. Thank you for having me. Great to see you. Same to you. B-Stock's been on the move for years now. Yeah. Almost feels old, man. Growth and success, when it starts feeling old, it means you're making progress.

[:

[00:02:15] Scott W. Luton: Mm-hmm. And you build video game systems amongst other things. Tell me more about that.

[:

[00:02:21] Scott W. Luton: so in the free time, I will build arcade cabinets, for friends, uh, give 'em away for their, you know, basements and lakehouse. But of course, I'm selfish in building for myself as well.

[:

[00:02:36] Sean Cleland: right. My daughter, I need to teach her how to use tools and not let anything stand in her way.

[:

[00:02:50] Scott W. Luton: I love it. okay. We can do a whole podcast series on that and we're gonna bring you back, Sean, to do that. Do it. So for the folks that may have missed my earlier sit downs, I mean, going back probably four or five years with the innovative B-Stock team, what does B-Stock do in a nutshell?

[:

[00:03:28] Sean Cleland: and then they use our transactional component to either auction it or move contracts or sell it as big bulk buy it now. Inventory out to buyers all over the world and they'll use all that data to make really smart decisions, and help run other programs for those companies.

[:

[00:03:48] Scott W. Luton: Helping the power more successful.

[:

[00:04:01] Scott W. Luton: Love it. Okay. So we're gonna come back to, uh, the reverse space, but you, mobile tech, mobile tech is on your plate every day, all day, all day.

[:

[00:04:28] Sean Cleland: Yeah, so mobile is really kind of the market leader, whatever we do in the cell phone, and high-end consumer electronic space, everybody basically follows. the big change now is, we're in this era of robotic processing. But now we're using AI to inform decisions far more forward in the supply chain.

[:

[00:05:10] Sean Cleland: AI is informing what something may be worth down the road. So very, very interesting change.

[:

[00:05:28] Scott W. Luton: Right. For sure. okay, so now let's bring it back to. The reverse and returns of managed space because we are in center of the universe for all things reverse here, at least this week. If you had to pinpoint one or two topics. Amongst the reverse and returns management space that's really intriguing to you right now?

[:

[00:05:49] Sean Cleland: I like coming to an event like this. Because I wanna understand what's happening outside of the categories that I play in every day. What are the large retailers doing differently this year than they did last year? what are brands thinking about? You know, everyone kind of runs to.

[:

[00:06:33] Sean Cleland: Mm. So what other retailers are gonna follow? That's what I like to hone in on.

[:

[00:06:53] Scott W. Luton: One last thing that you respond to, reverse planning. Exciting time.

[:

[00:07:08] Sean Cleland: Yes, because. I don't necessarily think because they want to be, I think it's a lot of times driven by the financial orgs in these big companies, right? the eyeballs are on every part of the business right now because consumer spending is tight. Anytime the market gets tight, the finance guys at these big companies start looking into every pocket of the business and every lever is being pulled.

[:

[00:07:46] Scott W. Luton: a lot of folks can hear your response there and hear a lot of the, microscopic, okay, where can we find efficiencies?

[:

[00:08:13] Scott W. Luton: But one more thing I wanna circle back in on, is. You touched on this earlier, but data and AI transforming how companies are handling their reverse processes, especially resale. I wanna, I wanna spike the football again on that. Yeah, because you called out, I think Best Buy. They're doing some really cool things.

[:

[00:08:38] Sean Cleland: For sure. B-Stock historically was asked the question, Hey, what can you get me for blank? That was always the question to us like, what is this worth? What is the percentage I would get for this category?

[:

[00:09:13] Sean Cleland: What should I do with the inventory in this facility? It's becoming a more strategic question, rather than the tactical. Gimme, gimme, gimme.

[:

[00:09:34] Scott W. Luton: Yeah. And to your point, if we can do more proactive planning and finding, wins for all parties and we can keep diverting more and more from our landfills, man. Yeah. We got some even bigger days ahead. So let's do this. We're here at the RLA Leadership Summit, 2025.

[:

[00:09:55] Sean Cleland: Yes.

[:

[00:10:02] Sean Cleland: I'm kind of really looking forward to hear how the folks attending the show, specifically retailers and, brands,

[:

[00:10:30] Sean Cleland: we're seeing a blend of both physical and digital coming together to make something a little more productive for these folks Getting more budget, which is great.

[:

[00:10:45] Scott W. Luton: Totally.

[:

[00:10:59] Scott W. Luton: outstanding. And as I mentioned on the front end, I think, uh, at my very first RLA.

[:

[00:11:23] Scott W. Luton: Pushing the needle of what can be done, and I admire that we need more of it. So Sean Cleland, vice President Mobility and Asset Recovery with B-Stock. How can folks track you down? Sean?

[:

[00:11:40] Sean Cleland: It's just Sean at B- Stock. Doesn't get simpler than that.

[:

[00:11:50] Scott W. Luton: we'll be back in touch soon.

[:

[00:12:02] Scott W. Luton: The metroplex is the center of the universe for all things reverse. At least this week, although we're gonna talk about why I might not say that. We can use All Things Circular. All th So you're already hearing from our esteemed guest on this conversation 'cause I'm here with Rich Bulger, founder and chief circularity officer with All Things Circular Rich.

[:

[00:12:25] Rich Bulger: That was a fast plug. I am doing great. I can't believe we get to have conversations like this again. Thanks for the invitation.

[:

[00:12:37] Scott W. Luton: 'cause I think it was 2019 in Vegas at the annual conference. well, you're top three out of probably 36 interviews we conducted over like two days. By the time we wrapped up the last one, I couldn't even say my last name. Right.

[:

[00:12:59] Rich Bulger: very much. I feel like Forrest Gump

[:

[00:13:01] Rich Bulger: lots of shoes, but now we're talking All Things Circular.

[:

[00:13:22] Rich Bulger: Yeah. I've been doing martial arts most of my life.

[:

[00:13:43] Rich Bulger: I had really bad eyesight. I couldn't play baseball or football 'cause I couldn't see the ball. But if you were close enough to hit me, I could see you. And I just wound up really excelling in the combat sports. Mm. the martial arts gave me a discipline. To go through and prepare for the military. I spent three years in the military.

[:

[00:14:20] Rich Bulger: Okay. At that I hadn't seen him. So test you see if you've continued your training. He challenged me the same way good teachers do. And at that point I was finishing up my four year degree and we talked about that. He is like, Rich. I don't know many people that are glad they didn't finish college.

[:

[00:14:51] Rich Bulger: He goes, how long has it been? I'm like, 10 years. he's like, yeah, that's a long time. He goes out. Let me ask you another question. Where are you gonna be in the next 10 years if you don't start doing something about it right now? I'm like, Ooh, that's the second thing that you said that, that makes sense.

[:

[00:15:22] Rich Bulger: I wound up competing a lot. I competed a lot when I was younger. But um, I went to, uh, qualify for the World Championship for American TaeKwonDo. Okay. You have to fight all year long, do tournaments and get points. And I went and I did one world championship and I lost, I got scared when I was in the ring.

[:

[00:15:51] Rich Bulger: not the most challenging division, but I remembered that experience. Yeah. and I trained all next year and I went back and I won the following year. So I've been doing competitive martial arts in the majority of my life.

[:

[00:16:17] Scott W. Luton: love it, man. I didn't know that. I knew lots about your journey, but that was a chapter I must have skipped over.

[:

[00:16:50] Scott W. Luton: But I can tell you firsthand and secondhand and third hand, we got a lot more work to do.

[:

[00:17:07] Rich Bulger: Right. So, and how I responded to different things. And in the end, that really is the only thing you can control.

[:

[00:17:23] Scott W. Luton: When we first met, you were doing really cool things at Cisco, one of the most admired companies in the world. fast forward a couple years, you were working at. On a book that we're gonna talk about in a second, which has received tons and tons of acclaim, and now we're sitting down and you and your team and All Things Circular have got, you've launched a brand new, I wouldn't call it a new mission, but a reinvigorated mission.

[:

[00:17:55] Rich Bulger: So what All Things Circular is designed to do is create a space for a conversation. Started with the book that I wrote. Going circular, the Evolution of Reverse Logistics into a Competitive Weapon.

[:

[00:18:28] Rich Bulger: Selfishly, I wanted to go and see if there was people I could recruit, because if people even know what reverse logistics is, it's a bonus. And I thought it was just a responsible thing for a board member to do is, vet the training that we endorsed through our board level meetings. Yeah. the book that they used was written in 1999.

[:

[00:19:09] Rich Bulger: That's right. With the desire to buy devices back, put money in a customer's pocket, and sell it for more. And really the residual value, I wanted to be a form of currency that they could use. Yeah. To set us apart from the competition. And I grew that to a $1.6 billion revenue stream at Verizon. Wow.

[:

[00:19:29] Rich Bulger: And everyone thought it was crazy to go through and buy devices from a cell phone company. I was told it was spelled SELL, not a by phone company, it worked. And, what I found running Verizon's reverse logistics and then the monetization, and then going through and running Cisco's Global Reverse Logistics.

[:

[00:20:01] Rich Bulger: So when I wrote the update to the book Going circular. this is a funny story too. I had a professor that started giving me CS on assignments.

[:

[00:20:23] Rich Bulger: All returns are bad and you wanna drive them down. Right? In a circular economy, there's circular sales programs, lease product as a service trade-in that you're actually trying to compel returns up. Yeah. So what I'm talking about driving returns up. C, you're not getting the concept. You gotta drive returns down.

[:

[00:21:00] Rich Bulger: It's what I do every day. Yep. Rich, you can't talk about it unless it's written in a book. I'm like, we should write a new book. Me trying to be helpful. Hey, let's go through and write one.

[:

[00:21:11] Rich Bulger: Yeah. That led to a, yeah. A real book getting written. So when he told me that I couldn't write a book because I wasn't a professor, I'm like, well, now I'm gonna write a book.

[:

[00:21:42] Rich Bulger: Yeah. And the conversation evolved from the book into, I met Peter Evans, who's got a PhD from MIT. he's an expert in circular platforms. He responded to the book launch and said, Hey, I need to learn. Reverse. I'm like, well, cool. I wanna learn platforms. So after we had a virtual coffee, he told me that he was teaching a masterclass in Barcelona on circular platforms, and he wanted logistics to be a part of that.

[:

[00:22:31] Rich Bulger: Yep. The masterclasses turned into a podcast that one of my former colleagues, Victor rc, who helped run Cisco's refresh organization.

[:

[00:22:53] Scott W. Luton: And I love that passion that Vic brings to the table. And these, these conversations, not only

[:

[00:23:00] Scott W. Luton: Oh, I see. Even

[:

[00:23:11] Rich Bulger: Don't make it all about the us right? And don't make it all about mobile. you had a male perspective, a female perspective, a European perspective, a US perspective, and we're not afraid to challenge each other. So it worked and it's been fun.

[:

[00:23:30] Rich Bulger: Damien is. A great human being and very innovative. Yes. He's a former finance guy who decided to get into wholesale liquidation when I left my last company that was in mobility. Yep. And I had a non-compete clause. I had to learn different elements. I had a 12 month burn down and I was watching Damien on LinkedIn doing these great videos on wholesale in a different category, set retail returns.

[:

[00:24:19] Rich Bulger: And Damien, was hungry for. Making a difference. Hungry for learning. So he taught us how to do podcasting. We taught him a different industry and he is a key part of our All Things Circular team who specializes in retail wholesale, and he's just such a great, interesting. Good

[:

[00:24:38] Scott W. Luton: You got a bit of a Hall of Justice, the Justice League foreman here. So you got Dr. Peter Evans, Vic Darcy, and Damien Pollock. I, I've got his name right? That's right.

[:

[00:24:48] Scott W. Luton: Okay. And of course, Rich Bulger, the world class TaeKwonDo champion amongst other things. And by, by the way, folks, That Verizon program he spoke about, you have to tune into another podcast 'cause that deserves its own deep dive history.

[:

[00:25:20] Scott W. Luton: Driving conversations through Podcasts Training Masterclass. We'll touch on that in a second. probably some consulting and some guidance, some advisory education, a big thing. We'll touch more on that. What type of feedback have you gotten on this book that essentially you were challenged to write?

[:

[00:25:43] Rich Bulger: I was inspired by the first two authors, Dr. Dale Rogers and, uh, Dr. Ron Lemke because when, which are pretty

[:

[00:25:50] Rich Bulger: within these circles, they're legends. So they, uh, they wrote the book and they gave it away. So I'm like, alright, well I like that. So I wrote the book, A Return Pro, helped pay for the editing of the book.

[:

[00:26:20] Rich Bulger: Everyone got hard copies of the book and it's pretty intimidating going through, taking something, putting it on paper and giving it away to all your peers to go through and provide. Feedback on.

[:

[00:26:40] Rich Bulger: Yeah. what I wanted to do is, again, spark that conversation, right? Because I had been in all these different companies that called the same processes, different acronyms, and um, since there's no real education on this, the American Public University system is the only college on the planet that I have found.

[:

[00:27:19] Scott W. Luton: And it poses a tremendous opportunity. Absolutely. Alright, so folks, you heard that challenge from One Rich Bulger. If you've been a part of, any reverse logistics training, curriculum, college, tech school, you name it, you want to hear about it, I wanna hear about it, especially If it teaches this new way of thinking where it's a tremendous opportunity to have more of the right returns and bake that into the overall business model.

[:

[00:28:03] Scott W. Luton: Comments on a podcast, comments on how we conduct conversations. Comments on how we lead businesses. Hey, but you know what, I'm kind of kidding. but Amanda does remind me very accurately, regularly that feedback is a blessing. Absolutely. That's how we get better. so if you had the bowl, if you had like a common theme or two of the feedback you've gotten on the book, what would that be?

[:

[00:28:41] Rich Bulger: we can't add any value because we don't know the subject. I'm like, no, you're actually the perfect person. 'cause I might be jaded just by my time using lingo that wouldn't resonate, but I want to give this book to someone who's coming into this for the first time. So when we wrote it, there's some things I wish I would've done different.

[:

[00:29:17] Rich Bulger: So my desire wasn't to make this book perfect. It was to start the conversation and then write a second one. Yep. This is a, a complex topic. I, I bought it and I didn't think that I would need any more copies in the first one 'cause I didn't think anyone would want to read it. But you need more copies.

[:

[00:29:49] Rich Bulger: If you're someone that has to do this for a living. Of how it's done. Yeah. And how the supply chain goes. Scott Case from the National Retail Federation Yeah. Has asked me to write a leader's book. And when he asked that one, that could go to CEOs of companies. 'cause this is a big blind spot where no one knows what reverse logisticians do or how to train 'em.

[:

[00:30:31] Rich Bulger: On what leaders need to know about their reverse logistics team or circular logistics team.

[:

[00:30:45] Scott W. Luton: So the first one's great. It's sold well, it resonated. Yeah. Uh, but you're looking at, taking everything you've learned ever since and all the feedback, and of course, where the industry continues to go and all bake all that into a second edition or a sequel. Yeah. What date can we expect that by? You think?

[:

[00:31:24] Rich Bulger: It was a two hour one. Yeah. And since we're at the Reverse Logistics Leadership Summit, this was the leaders. Overview of reverse

[:

[00:31:50] Scott W. Luton: as you were describing, you've got probably a full blown masterclass. Y'all delivered globally, and then you've got shorter targeted. Variations like you gave here this week at the reverse, the RLA leadership summit. Is that right? Correct. We've got 31 different modules, got 31

[:

[00:32:07] Rich Bulger: Yeah. That make up the full blown masterclass that make up the full blown masterclass in every conference that we do has our own love language. Okay. In terms of what's important, like the content we presented at Circularity is different than the concepts that we presented at Mold Disrupt.

[:

[00:32:22] Rich Bulger: Which are gonna be different than the concepts that we present at next e-commerce supply chain.

[:

[00:32:41] Rich Bulger: It's a constitution. And this leadership one that we did today.

[:

[00:33:05] Scott W. Luton: would you say that, the room you had today and it was a full room, I, I saw people standing up in the back. Would you say that this is a crowd that is, much more savvy and informed and aware than a lot of the other audiences you speak to?

[:

[00:33:24] Rich Bulger: And this is the most prestigious event that exists within our industry because only the, higher level. Sponsors and participants are invited to come through. So this is the niche within a niche. Right? And this is the most experienced part of the group, one of the questions that I ask,

[:

[00:33:56] Rich Bulger: Yeah. And do you know how many of 400 I've ever got? That said they took a formal course. I bet. three. One one. And that person who said they took a formal horse was a instructor that I had at American Public University. I'm like, well, you're teaching a course that doesn't count. when you go through and you take an industry that this complex and all the people that are supposed to do it.

[:

[00:34:30] Scott W. Luton: even the leader of the RLA was picked from doing something else at Phillips Tony themselves. Yeah, that's right. And he was tasked with figuring out how to do reverse and returns management.

[:

[00:34:58] Scott W. Luton: They wanna be in supply chain from day one. Mark is going to do some big things in procurement. Matt's gonna do some big things in production planning that's very unique. 'cause it took me, I was a junior in college maybe before I figured out what I wanted to do.

[:

[00:35:25] Scott W. Luton: So it's really interesting. So I wanna, I wanna kind of full, picture here, full circle, because education, when, when folks ask you in all these conversations globally, you're having about this. Not only the critical industry of supply chain management, but this niche niches maybe is, I think as you put it, what do we have to talk more about and figure out more and have more dialogue and more action around in the reverse and return space?

[:

[00:35:53] Rich Bulger: use one word. Impact. So some stats. If you look at, The National Retail Federation size and scope of returns in the us A study they came up with $5.2 trillion is what retail made in 2024. The impact of unwanted returns was north of 890 billion. Those are people who bought something and said, I no longer want it.

[:

[00:36:41] Rich Bulger: The impact of unwanted returns almost tripled. all flowing through reverse. And then the other phenomenon that happened during COVID and shifts in buying preference from Gen Z and millennials where they'll purchase on. Purpose over price buying used things. They're aware of their carbon footprint and they're actively taking steps and they're great at technology that helps match used supply.

[:

[00:37:33] Rich Bulger: You go to a business and you say, Hey, you're a legal team. Where'd you go to college? There's legal classes. You go talk to the finance team. you know, have you ever taken a course on finance? There's tons of courses, right? Leadership courses, supply chain courses. I'll look at my friends, from TCU that are in supply chain.

[:

[00:38:00] Scott W. Luton: I love that. there's a similar analogy, in the last 10 years, I wish I, I wish I had the data, but I know more of the growth.

[:

[00:38:27] Scott W. Luton: what you're saying is we need something very similar for the reverse space, for the circular space. that also focuses on the modern way, not just to your point, less than returns. But returns is a wonderful thing, wonderful opportunity, makes the customers happy. It can create revenue. It can bake more, sustainable circularity into business models.

[:

[00:39:02] Rich Bulger: Right. And one of the things I wanna try to introduce is stop talking about forward in reverse is, okay, separate, separate things.

[:

[00:39:36] Rich Bulger: Right? And you can measure the success of your circular programs by measuring how often a product goes from the hands of one owner to the second owner through Ford and reverse the handoff. In circular logistics, there's circular sales programs, lease product as a service. Trade in that are designed to compel returns up.

[:

[00:40:10] Scott W. Luton:

[:

[00:40:17] Rich Bulger: My friends that are just entering career or my millennial friends that care about the impact that they have to recruiting. It’s purpose.

[:

[00:40:33] Scott W. Luton: you're not. one of the means of folks out there that are consulting, advising, teaching, I'm not throwing stones at anybody, but we all know there's lots of folks that teach it and haven't done it. You've done it. and as I've mentioned that story with Verizon and, the chapter of yours at Cisco, now that you're using those great experiences and, uh, accomplishments preaching, the circular logistics gospel, all right, so there's so much more to the Rich Bulger story, but how can folks connect with you and All Things Circular?

[:

[00:41:26] Rich Bulger: We've got our glossary of returns there. It's where you can find our podcast. But if you want to bridge the gap between. Theory or challenges in applications? We do advisory service. So there's a way you can contact me from allthingscircular.com. My love language is LinkedIn, so if you find me Rich Bulger, on LinkedIn, messaging me there is probably the most effective way.

[:

[00:41:58] Scott W. Luton: is my safe space. Alright, so check out and follow. Connect with Rich Bulger, founder and chief Circularity officer. With All Things Circular.

[:

[00:42:28] Scott W. Luton: So I'll throw a challenge out there too. Oh, we got challenge here, the listeners.

[:

[00:42:50] Rich Bulger: Let me know and I'll put it in the leader book. Love it.

[:

[00:43:00] Scott W. Luton: ​

Chapters

Video

More from YouTube