In this transformative episode of the Pivot Podcast, internationally recognized spiritual formation expert Mark Scandrette shares his journey of reimagining practical discipleship for the 21st century. Mark introduces the concept of the "Jesus Dojo," a revolutionary approach to hands-on, experiential faith formation. He shares powerful examples of practical experiments in following Jesus, including a radical approach to simplicity and generosity.

Hosts Dr. Alicia Granholm and Rev. Dr. Dwight Zscheile explore with Mark how church leaders can shift from information-based teaching to practical, action-oriented discipleship. Discover how creating vulnerable, experiential spiritual communities can lead to profound personal and collective transformation. Whether you're a church leader looking to revitalize your congregation's spiritual life or an individual seeking a more authentic faith journey, this episode offers inspiring insights and practical steps for pivoting towards a more vibrant, Jesus-centered spirituality through practical discipleship.

Show notes:

• Mark Scandrette's book: "The Ninefold Path of Jesus: Hidden Wisdom of the Beatitudes"
• Mark's previous book: "Practicing the Way of Jesus"
• Reimagine - Mark's Center for Integral Christian practice
• Nine Beats Collective - a project exploring the Beatitudes that Mark is involved with

Watch this episode on YouTube: https://youtu.be/R6I9GmRcX0E

Mark Scandrette: They know. A lot of us have come to some frustration in our spiritual lives. Um, our faith has been mostly belief oriented and not very practice oriented. What if we made an attempt to make Jesus more like our rabbi and did a practical experiment about this? So we're proposing that a group of us over the next two months try and sell or give away half of what we own and give those resources to global, um, global development and poverty relief. And I was very skeptical about who would want to do this with us. I thought maybe 3 or 4 people, you know, and it turned out that about 30 people wanted to to join in this.

Dwight Zscheile: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Pivot podcast, where we explore how the church can faithfully navigate a changing world. I'm Dwight Zscheile.

Alicia Granholm: And I'm Alicia Granholm. If you're not familiar with what we do at pivot, we believe that there are four key pivots God is calling the church to make in the 21st century. They are a pivot in posture, from fixing institutional problems to listening and discerning where God is leading a pivot in focus from membership to discipleship. A pivot in structure from one size fits all models of ministry, to a mixed ecology of innovative and inherited forms of church working together and a pivot in leadership from primarily clergy led, lay supported ministry to lay led, clergy supported ministry.

Dwight Zscheile: That's right, Alicia, which is why we are so excited to welcome Mark Scandrett to the show today. Mark is an internationally recognized, uh, authority and specialist in practical Christian spirituality. He's the founding director of Reimagine a Center for Integral Christian Practice, where he leads an annual series of retreats, workshops, and projects designed to help participants apply spiritual wisdom to everyday life. His multidisciplinary studies in theology, applied psychology, family health and all kinds of things have shaped his approach to learning and transformation. So Mark is on the creative team for Nine Beats Collective, which is a project exploring the Beatitudes as a 21st century vocabulary for living the way of Jesus. He's the author of multiple books, which I'm sure we'll touch on, so we can't think of anyone better to help us consider this pivot in focus from membership to discipleship than Mark. So Mark, welcome to the show.

Mark Scandrette: Hey, it's great to be with you, Dwight and Alicia.

Dwight Zscheile: So, Mark, let's start by having you share a bit about your own journey as a disciple and a trainer. Equipper former educator of disciples.

Mark Scandrette: Uh, so I came of age, uh, um, in the 1980s, as an adolescent, my parents were part of the Jesus movement in the or on the periphery of it in the 1970s. And, um, so when I was growing up, faith was really close to life. Um, my family moved to, uh, an urban neighborhood to intentionally be the hands and feet of Jesus in the neighborhood, and it was really cultivated, rich environment, um, for spiritual life, where I just, I saw my parents trying to practice the way of Jesus in their everyday life, um, through, you know, I think personal piety, but also a lot of community care and compassion and things like that. So I'm really grateful for that. I, um, picked up the Bible, the New Testament, for myself when I was, um, in sixth or seventh grade and just fell in love with Jesus as Rabbi, this wise, uh, this wise one who, um, you know, show can show us how to how to live and how to flourish. Uh, I earlier in my life, I had been, um, led to receive Christ, but it really clicked in for me as an adolescent where I was like, I, I need a guide for life. And, um, and, uh, I, I growing up in the traditional Christian tradition, I naturally looked to the Bible and just, um, just decided I want to follow this. I want to follow this this guy. Um, it created a little bit of cognitive dissonance in me between the sort of church as I knew it and then discipleship as I was discovering it. And I remember as a teenager, um, having conversations with my dad where I would say, you know, I don't get it. We, um, we follow a homeless rabbi from the first century. But the way we do it is by getting all dressed up on Sundays, going to a large official building and hearing talks about the Bible. How is the how is all that help actually helping us live his way? And so I've kind of lived much of my life in that tension between the institutional form of Christianity and this, um, wild and feral, untamed way of Jesus. And, uh, I'm still trying to navigate how how those two things connect. Um, but, uh, but as a teenager, I, I was intentional, began that kind of intentional journey of asking, what would it look like for me to follow Jesus in my everyday life? And as I did, I, you know, I'd read a passage from, um, from the Gospels and then I'd try it out. And I felt my confidence in Jesus as the wise one, really increasing as I took the chance to try and practice his way. And so that sort of set me on the trajectory of my life.

Alicia Granholm: So you started at Jesus Dojo a number of years ago to try and reframe the church's imagination for how we might form disciples. Can you share a little bit about what that is or was and why you created it?

Mark Scandrette: Yeah. After seminary, we relocated to San Francisco from Minneapolis, from the Minnesota. And, um, we had funding to start a new faith community. And, uh, when we arrived in San Francisco, like, we knew it was a different cultural context. That's partly why we chose San Francisco, as it seemed like the one of the more post-Christian, um, post-modern, um, spaces. And and so we had some curiosity about what does it mean to follow Jesus in a post religious context like this. And I tried to take the posture of being a humble listener. And when I would let people I met know that I was a Christian or that I was a pastor, I got some really interesting reactions and most of them were negative. And, um, most of the criticism was true. You know, one person said to me, I don't I don't understand that there seems to be a huge gap between Jesus and you Christians like why you don't seem interested in becoming like him. And that pained me. And I think that, um, modern Christianity has tended to center around, um, belief in certain doctrines or dogmas and the practice of certain rituals. Um, but maybe less emphasis on how we're being formed as followers of Jesus in practical ways. And that seemed to be the longing that we were hearing from people. And, um, and I, we thought we, we, we really had to deconstruct some of our understanding of what it means to be, um, the church and I had to I had to ask in the community I was part of, we had to ask is, are the things that we've typically done to express our Christian faith actually helped us become more whole and more like Jesus in the world? And our sense was that, um, maybe there's a there's become a difference between how Jesus created community and made disciples and the typical, uh, 20th to 21st century patterns. And my kind of thumb thumbnail sketch of this difference is that, um, our strategies have tended to be individualistic. Uh, this is part of the American experience. Pull yourself up by your bootstraps. It's sort of me and Jesus. It's tended to be, um, information and event driven. So if I just get exposed to the right, the right knowledge, the right interesting information, participate in the right events, I'll be magically transformed. And that I think, um, I don't think this is intentional, but I think, um, sociologically, we've tended our faith has tended to be disconnected and maybe even dishonest about the human condition. And so, um, if, um, I like to say if, if, if a person's experience is different than what I'm describing there, then congratulations, you're in the you're in the special minority. But those are some of the themes that have characterized I think the a contemporary, the contemporary themes. So in contrast to that, how did Jesus make disciples? Um, how did he invite people into his way of life? It wasn't just his individuals. He invited people into a community of belonging. Um, and so it couldn't just be going to events or being part of the right organisation. There was a highly relational dimension to that. It was in the contract between rabbi and disciples. Um, Jesus did teach, but in that Hebraic model, it wasn't just, um, giving of information or of or describing the ancient text. You trusted the rabbi with your whole life. How does the rabbi move through life? How do they. When do they eat? When do they sleep? Um, how do they interact with people? You wanted to become like the rabbi. Not just know what the rabbi knew, but but be able to live as the rabbi lived. And, um, so Jesus taught through example as well as information. And then I think Jesus was really, um, realistic about the human condition. You know, if you just take the sermon on the Mount as an example, he, um, you, you get a few verses in and he says, if your brother or sister has something against you, well, who of us hasn't had difficulties in our family relationships where there's conflict? So he's talking about that. You go on a few more verses and he says, don't worry about your life. Well, how many of us struggle with worry and anxiety? So he's being he knows what life is really like for us and has a way for us to experience life in a whole new way. So we had to look at our normal ways of trying to be and make disciples. And we went, there's not enough community, there's not enough action and practice to this and maybe not enough authenticity or vulnerability. So we wanted to create an environment that would be, um, highly relational, high trust and vulnerability and action oriented. And so my quick way of describing that was we want to create a Jesus dojo, uh, dojo in Japanese. You know, I was a fan of The Karate Kid when I was a kid. And so I knew about dojos, I knew about practice, and I'm like, um, the Jesus way you learn it, It's that his way of making disciples is more like a karate studio than a college lecture hall or a typical congregational setting. And so, um, just in the spirit of that, we wanted to evoke that. So we use I don't I don't currently use the term Jesus dojo, but, um, uh, partly because it was cultural appropriation, but the, the, the main theme is we need to be in the workshop, in the lab, in the, in the kitchen, in, you know, in the shop, helping each other learn to practice the ways of Jesus. And so our early attempts to do that was that we would, uh, we started off, I got together a group of leaders, and we read through the book of Luke, and we just said, let's notice every place where Jesus modeled something for his disciples, or gave an instruction to his disciples about what they might do. And we catalog that. And then we sort of pondered, what would it be like if we formed community around trying to practice those those teachings? Um, how would we reconcile with people that we have broken relationships with? How what would help us to move from worry to trust? And, um, and so we called our this approach sort of experiments and we invited people into something we call the learning lab, where we, um, we'd say for for six weeks, we're going to look at this theme in the teachings of Jesus and take on some practices that might help us learn his way. And it was very exciting because for many of the people who who began to participate with us, their faith suddenly became much more alive. And it was connecting with with their whole person in really transformative ways. And so that started in about 2005. And there's just been different iterations of that sort of approach that we've worked with ever since then.

Dwight Zscheile: So, Mark, give us some examples of some of those very practical experiments that you had, um, people doing and, and walk us through, you know, you maybe begin with Scripture. It sounds like, and then people would do some practices and then was there a feedback loop or coming back and reflecting on what happened? Just get really specific with us.

Mark Scandrette: So I'm going to share one of the earlier, more provocative experiences experiments we did. Um, if you look at Luke 12, Jesus says a lot about our relationship to money and material possessions. Very countercultural things, he says. Sell your possessions and give to the poor. And the little group that we are a part of was like, that's really compelling. It's really scary. Why would Jesus say something like that? And and how might that be an invitation into life? And so we decided to launch an experiment around our relationship with money and possessions. We called it Have to Give one because when John the Baptist was preaching the Kingdom of God, people said. He said, the kingdom of God is at hand. And people said, well, what should we do? And he said, if you have two coats, give one of them away. If you have food, share with the person who who doesn't have food. And so, um, we sent out an invitation to a group of friends, and I said, I know a lot of us have come to some frustration in our spiritual lives. Um, our faith has been mostly belief oriented and not very practice oriented. What if we made an attempt to make Jesus more like our rabbi and did a practical experiment about this? So we're proposing that a group of us, over the next two months try and sell or give away half of what we own and give those resources to global, um, global development and poverty relief. And I was very skeptical about who would want to do this with us. I thought maybe 3 or 4 people, you know, and it turned out that about 30 people wanted to to join in this. And we quick had to organize multiple groups. Um, but I think there's a clue in there. Maybe we haven't taken more radical steps to follow the Jesus way, simply because as leaders, we've been a bit hesitant to invite one another into that dynamic. But we got to work. Um, we kind of create, uh, there's a bit of a group discernment, and we developed a process for going through our, our possessions and considering. Is Jesus inviting me to keep this? Or could I sell it or donate it or recycle it? Um, and what we found out, and this is a principle that I've seen work over and over again, is when you're committed to action, it takes your faith to a much deeper, uh, level. Your understanding goes much deeper. Um, if we have that posture of leaning back and pondering, it's not quite the same as being committed to actually doing something. So our bias has been to learn by doing and then reflecting. So, uh, each week we we'd think about an area of life and say, this week, go through your closet and your drawers and discern giving away half. And then the next week it was household items, books, electronics, collectibles. Another week it was bigger things like bicycles and cars. And after each of these steps, we'd ask each other, what came up for you when you were going through your closets and drawers? And that's where a lot of insight came to be. People would say things like, I realize I have. I have enough clothes that I wouldn't have to do laundry for two months, so why do I keep shopping? Or why do I only I only wear the 3 or 4 favorite outfits or, uh, somebody said I found I found clothes in my closet that still had the tags on them, and I bought them years ago. And now when I think about it, I was I didn't buy those clothes to clothe my body. I bought them as therapy, like retail therapy. I was feeling sad or stressed. Uh, I get a dopamine hit when I make a get a good deal on something. So we were it was helping us explore not just what we own, but our motives for why we tend to, um, pursue certain things. And, um. Uh, one this was interesting. Uh, one of the participants said about week 4 or 5, he said, you know, this is easier than I thought it would be. I live in Silicon Valley. Material things aren't hard to come by. I think I could get rid of everything I own, and I'd have enough. I'd have. People would give me things and I'd have just as much stuff in six months. So it seems like there's something deeper here. And he said, I think if we really want to get into Jesus invitation, we would also talk about how much we make, where we spend our money, what our debts and our assets are. If you look in the book of acts, the early chapters, it says there was no need. Among them. They had um, um, they would sell possessions and goods to help each other out and, and welcome orphans and widows. And the church was growing as people were entering into this new community. And so, uh, we took a chance and started talking more personally about our finances. And it was one of the scariest but most transformative group encounters I've ever had. Um, one person, the first person person who shared was someone I judged as a wealthy person because they were like in tech startups, but as they shared about their finances, they'd really been, I think, discipled well and being generous and adopting a posture of simplicity. Another person shared, and they, um, they had a sheet of paper with their kind of accounting on it, and it was tear soaked. Um, because the numbers weren't adding up and more was going out than was coming in. And they said, we have a first child on the way. We'd like to own a house, but it doesn't seem possible. And that was an invitation to them to begin a new journey in their relationship with money and possessions. And a third person shared. And that person, um, we didn't know it at the time, but they were having to put their groceries on a credit card. Uh, they'd been through some trauma, their education got stifled, and they were working a low wage service job and trying to keep up living in San Francisco. And when the group heard about their situation, one person, um, volunteered to help them develop a plan for paying down their debt. Another couple said, we'd love to have you come and live with us until you get on your feet. And then together as a group. We collected some money and said, you've been through some traumatic experiences. We'd like to pay for you to. We want to be friends to you, but we think a specialist could help you with your healing. So all this happens because we were willing to take a risk to kind of go where we wouldn't normally go with things and try and try to connect the teachings of Jesus to everyday life. That's one of many experiments, Um, you know, uh, for a lot of us, silence and solitude was a new thing. And we said, hey, the the early disciples spent ten days in that upper room. What if we went for three days to a, uh, cabin by up in the mountains or by the beach? And we practiced silence and solitude for an extended period of time. What might. What might we discover and And might we encounter the living God in a much more experiential and deeper way? And that proved to be really transformational for many people as well. Um, as most places are today, there's a lot of unhoused people in our neighborhood. And, uh, we looked at Jesus teaching and example of being a friend to those in poverty and struggle. And so one of our experiments was to share weekly meals with a unhoused community in our neighborhood. Not as a not as a means to get them calories or be do gooders, but as a way of forming community. So we'd bring some food, they'd bring some food, and we we had a community meal together. And, um, those outward expressions were also super confrontive and transformational. Here's an interesting thing. Um, and this got me interested in how personality is a factor in our discipleship or formation. For some people, the silence and solitude on that retreat was really easy for the introverts, let's say, and the more contemplative types. What was hard for them was going under the freeway overpass to share meals with our unhoused neighbors. And so that helped us, and vice versa. Some people, uh, more the activist type, found it really easy to do the social engagement aspects and really hard to be silent and still and to explore the the insides and be reflective. And so um, and so we, I think that's why a one size fits all approach to discipleship isn't that helpful? Because we come at it with, you know, certain gifts and certain liabilities that have to be accounted for as well.

Alicia Granholm: Mark, thank you so much for sharing. Uh, I just love hearing all that. And I want to highlight one of the things that you said, and I know you said it specifically about, um, kind of the finances conversations. Right. And just the risk that was involved there. Um, and I'm curious if you can share a little bit from what you've experienced and learned over time about how church leaders and spiritual mentors can really take a risk, um, in helping the folks that they work with to move beyond what, you know has been a bit more typical of a surface level engagement in faith.

Mark Scandrette: Yeah, my sense is we have we we, uh, those of us in, in contemporary church leadership, faith, leadership. We're really, um, information experts in some ways. We know how to slice and dice the Bible. Um, you know, um, guide people's perspectives. But if we really want to see whole life transformation, we have to move just from that information download to more of an integrative approach. And I think that, um, there may have been a time like I think the when information was scarce, I think about the form that the church takes, uh, historically around liturgy and preaching. And that happened in a time when most people were illiterate. And Sunday, the Sunday gathering, was the one time you could get that information that was scarce to you. Well, we certainly don't live in that time like we're we're so content rich. The what scarce today is opportunities for life on life practice. And so as leaders, I think we could begin to see ourselves as something more like, um, you know, the guides to exploration, where we say we're going to go on a journey together, we're going to take some risks, and and I'm going to be, um, a participant guide, meaning I'm saying let's do it, and I'm going to be the first to jump in the pool, the first to take the risk. And I'd welcome you to follow me, um, in and, um, risk can be scary, but it is the place where we grow. Right? And so I like to you probably heard, you know, heard this, uh, trope before, but insanity is doing the same things over and over and expecting something different to happen. So my recommend. So my sense is so many of us long to to be formed and live life in the Jesus way. And a lot of times, every time we read a book, listen to a podcast, or, um, participate in a sermon liturgy, we get some the spirit speaks and says, hey, try that or this would be your next step. But if we have to go home and try to work that out on our own, most of us won't have won't have success. So the way human beings work is we're collective. We need we need to be part of groups taking, taking risks to learn and grow. And so I think leaders can, um, can pivot to saying, here's one theme in the life Jesus invites us into. I want to take a step, and I'm going to invite my my group or congregation to take that step with me. Um, I do think that this requires a change in the contract, the typical contract of leadership and membership or participation, and sometimes, um, just to sometimes when I travel between churches, I'll, I'll make this point by saying, like, I often get invited to speak and I'll say, I just want you to be aware of the dynamic here. Um, I have a microphone. I'm standing. You're sitting. Um, the the unspoken contract is I'm going to tell you things and hopefully be wise and insightful. Maybe make you laugh and tell a couple and help you not fall asleep. You're going to listen. Nod. If you want to really flatter me, take some notes and then come up afterwards and shake my hand and tell me I did a good job. I said, let's be honest, that dynamic isn't changing me. And it isn't changing. It isn't changing you. What if we mix it up a bit and I'll try and be more honest? I'll try and invite you into a conversation. We're going to try on some practices, and I'm going to challenge and invite you to take on a practice with me between now and the next time we meet. And then when we get together, we'll talk about what what that experience was like. So it can take some work to shift this dynamic, but I don't. I think it's very realistic and possible. And, um, you know, the, the, the Sunday gathering is one space for that. I think something that's been underutilized, um, of late is small groups and spiritual direction as spaces where that sort of life on life, um, sort of, sort of practice can happen.

Dwight Zscheile: So what you're describing is really a revolution in the basic kind of pedagogical approach of Christian communities, really recovering Jesus's method, which is so different from how we practice church. And, you know, so much emphasis is placed on a Sunday worship experience. that as if that will form people to be able to do these very difficult things that Jesus talks about in daily life, more or less on their own. Right. And why would why did we ever think that would work? But so but so so I just I want to just note like how how profound. You know, this kind of pedagogic, pedagogical, uh, paradigm shift is and there are so many expectations built into existing churches of how things are going to happen. And most of those expectations are not that I'm going to be part of a community that's going to invite me to share my finances transparently, or go talk to unhoused neighbors under a bridge or whatever it is. Right. So talk with us a little bit about that, and specifically for our listeners who maybe are leading kind of more traditional inherited churches with communities that are formed around those other expectations, like what are some first steps they can take?

Mark Scandrette: Yeah, I think one one part of this process is what I call naming the ache. So, um, whenever I'm working with a church, I'll ask them, what are the what are the needs and longings that you and the people that you are sharing life with are encountering? And, um, some typical ones that come up. Uh, high levels of anxiety, worry, stress, hurry, um, broken relationships and challenges about how to bridge gaps in some in family relationships and work relationships. Um, uh, questions about meaning. Um, uh, when you look at areas of, of justice and human flourishing, these things like mental health and, um, housing and um, and, um, racial injustice, these are felt needs that many of us have. We we want our lives to be different and better, and we want the world to be different and better. And so, um, I think it's really important to begin to, to invite communities to tell the tell the truth about what we're experiencing, and then look to the scriptures and say, what? What is the vision of life that Jesus invites us into? And to begin to have an imagination for that. And then. And then say what? How could we move towards that preferred vision together? What steps might we take? So I'll give you an example. Um, I think this hurry and and and stress is a big one. That would be a great place to start. And so some practical things about, um, uh, our relationship with our, our devices and technology seems to be a big challenge for a lot of us. It's stealing our peace, creating more anxiety, uh, isolating us. So, um, I've worked with a lot of churches to to where we do an experiment around a digital detox together, and it's super practical. Most of us as leaders, if we're honest, struggle with, um, having our amygdalas hijacked by our technology and being a, having dopamine addictions. And, um, and whenever I've done this, like we'll invite people to take, like a seven day limit or fast from their chosen kind of digital distractions. And most people who take that risk will say, I slept better. I felt more peaceful. I felt less angry and agitated. Um, there was a conversation that has been waiting to happen with the people I live with and love, and I finally was able to have it because I wasn't distracting myself. So it's things like that. So, you know, to circle back, just naming those aches and saying, we want to help each other experience life and liberation in these in these tangible areas where we have these aches and gaps. Um, it can be so helpful. I also think for leaders, um, what I love about leading in this way is that my my leadership feeds my personal spiritual journey, and they're not two separate things. Um, I think for some, for some leaders personally, they're experiencing the benefits of spiritual disciplines and various practices, and it's just learning to take some of those good experiences they've had and inviting others to do them with them. So if contemplative prayers are really helpful for you, start a group and invite people once a week to spend. Spend some time doing centering prayer or certain journaling exercises with you. If if if the Spirit's calling you to care about racial justice or issues of poverty or things like that and and and you, you you're you're wanting to go out and do it. You might be doing it, but it would take it to a different level to invite people from your community to do those activities with you. So I'll, I, I often encourage leaders to just refocus where they put their attention. I think a lot of us, as leaders, measure our effectiveness on how well we prepped for the Sunday gathering. There's a lot of meetings, there's facility care, you know, etc. and just taking some of that attention and going, could we dial down some of those other things to maintenance level, minimal, viable, uh, you know, attention and turn the volume up on the life, on life. Um, uh, you know, spend more time actually practicing the ways of Jesus together. Um, and I'll even push it and say, for leaders, take that as far as you can, like risk it. See? See if anyone notices and keep going until, you know, just just follow that. Follow that trail and see what happens.

Alicia Granholm: Mark, I want to thank you for that. I want to kind of take that and keep going a little bit on that thread, because I would love to hear, um, your thoughts on the importance of mentorship and discipleship and how it is that church leaders, particularly right, if they need to renegotiate their contracts, if you will, with their congregation, how can they foster that kind of relationship with people in their congregation or outside, for that matter?

Mark Scandrette: I think, um, you know, think about how Jesus, um, guided his disciples. It was that smaller group of 12. It has to come down to a relational level. Um, and I think we've been conditioned to think that we're doing our fulfilling our role when we're publicly preaching or teaching or, um, leading. But but, um, Dwight alluded to this, the The way adult learning happens is in conversation and and practice, not in one way communication. And so as as adult learners particularly, we need spaces where we're asked questions, where we're asked to be honest. We wrestle with things together. We tell the truth. Um, and and then we try things on. And so, um, and so really prioritizing some of those small, smaller group spaces, um, and there's a lot of good resources to help, to help leaders know how to do that. Um, very rarely do I see a lead, a lead pastor or priest prioritize the small group aspects. But that's where the transformation happens. And then I think, um, if that's too scary, just starting with, um, one on one, um, can be can be super helpful. I think that's why there's so much interest in spiritual direction right now. And personal coaching, um, I do a lot. I do a lot of that right now. Um, because I see so much, so much transformation happening on that in those life. On life encounters. Um, again, this requires a shift in the contract. I think a lot, a lot of, um, leaders do pastoral calls. Um, often meet with people when they're in, um, difficulty, grief or crisis. But what's going to be required to make that more of a discipleship context is a clear contract to say, hey, I would love to meet with you regularly. Um, this is this is this is how we'll structure this time. Um, I'll listen, I'll try and reflect back to you what I'm noticing will be listening for what the spirit is trying to say. And then by the end of our time, hopefully, you discern some action step to take to go with what the Spirit's been saying to you. And that really brings it, takes it to a different, um, different level when it's like that. I know when I was, I can remember how so many pastoral conversations I've had where the same person would come to me ten times and we'd have the same conversation over and over again. And it's and, um, I think if we're not careful as leaders, it's rewarding to be seen as the wise one and the advice giver, but something more than just a listening ear and advice is needed. A clear contract of hey, I'm, I want to guide you and support your journey. What do you what are you going to do with the insight that we've uncovered, uh, in our time together?

Dwight Zscheile: So, Mark, one last question for you as we bring this amazing conversation to a close, your most recent book is based on exploring the Beatitudes as a framework for thinking about following Jesus. Tell us a little bit about that book.

Mark Scandrette: Yeah, sure. I, um, it's connected to the a book I wrote previous to that was called Practicing the Way of Jesus. And it's really almost like a manual for church leaders on how to how to make faith practical and and explore the way of Jesus in, you know, communal settings. So a group in London got a hold of that book and said, we want to do a project around the Beatitudes, and you're you you have some skill in connecting Scripture to practice. And so I jumped in on the project with them. And we really our intent was to create, um, a discipleship tool. And so we designed a ten week journey through the Beatitudes as a framework for the main teachings of Jesus. So the Beatitudes come at the beginning of the sermon on the Mount. Many experts would suggest that the best summary or collection we have of the Jesus Way is the sermon on the Mount. And so we took we we noticed that there are themes in the Beatitudes that get played out in the sermon on the Mount. Um, and, and so with my background in psychology, I'm really I'm always interested in what's the inner workings. Like there's doing what Jesus did, but we can only do what Jesus did. If we can see the world as Jesus sees, sees, sees God himself and the world. So there's a dynamic between inner life and action that we tried to pay attention to. And so the thought behind the book was that there are nine shifts we need to make to move from our normal, habituated ways of interacting with life, to experience the fullness of the Kingdom of God. So a couple of examples. Our first instinct is to be closed handed, to be, uh, to operate around a sense of scarcity, anxiety, worry. I call that closed handedness. And so we in the in the book and in the groups that are around the book, we'll invite people to get in touch with that. What do you tend to worry about? Where's where do you tend to experience anxiety? What's it its role in your life? And then we start to go, what would it look? You know, Jesus invitation is to open our hands, to learn to live in this new posture of trust, vulnerability and interdependence. And then, as a group, will take on some practices that might help us with that. And then we come back together the next week and reflect, um, when you've tried that prayer practice, when, um, you know, what was it like? Did you what was your anxiety level this week or whatever? Um, though probably the one one of the Beatitudes that's been most, um, impactful as groups go through the book is that second beatitude. Blessed are those who mourn, for they will be comforted. Why would Jesus make mourning the second thing in his great big sermon? Well, we our first tendency is to run away from pain to be pain avoidant. And we've we found ways we discovered this as children, and we found ways as old, older people to distract ourselves from the pain that's too hard to face in life. And so, as anybody in recovery knows, running from pain doesn't heal it. It only makes it go deeper. And so, with great wisdom, Jesus is inviting us to face our pain, to sit with what's hard, our personal pain and trauma, but also our collective pain, the ways we've hurt other people, the ways we've participated in systems and structures of injustice and to mourn about those things. Um, and so we, you know, that's a theme throughout the Judeo-Christian scriptures. Um, mourn with those who mourn. Um, Israel is called those who wrestle with God. Uh, lament and complaint were a big part of the Psalms and, um, and the prophets. And so we'll invite people to, um, abstain from things that they usually go to for a week to make space, to mourn, to spend at least a half an hour a day just on a solitary walk. Um, and see what comes up and process it, to actually write a poem of lament or complaint. And then we always want to have, um, a collective and public, um, dimension to this. So we'll invite people to what what's the what's the collective mourning that you've avoided? Uh, during during the George Floyd era, we would invite people to watch the funeral on YouTube or to, um, or to listen to the testimonies and stories of people who have experienced, uh, um, racial injustice and to simply sit with that and hear it. And, um, boy, for people I never expected. You know, I think a lot of churches today are experiencing this sort of tug between, um, for lack of a better term, like the right and the left. Right and, and, um, we've seen a lot of people. when, when we're, when we feel this invitation from Jesus to morning, we're actually able to face some of those systemic and structural issues that we personally have some self-protection around or whatever, but it recontextualizes it so we can go with it. So I've loved it that, um, you know, we've had groups in Germany that have have been able to mourn, um, German folks mourning the way, uh, the Jewish Holocaust in ways that they hadn't been able to, or friends in Australia who are facing into what was done to original peoples in that in that country and, um, and cross bridges to connect and to listen and to form friendships across some of those divides has been really amazing. So the book is really a tool of discipleship. And for each chapter there are um, there's there's kind of a bit of teaching and some reflection questions. We call it animating questions. We want, we need, we want groups to be talking together um, and and getting, um, getting heart conversations going. And so, um, each of the Beatitudes has what I call an animating question, like where in your life do you feel like you don't have enough or you're not enough? Or where's where's where are you experiencing pain, difficulty and loss? Or how do you tend to get caught in the trap of thinking of comparison and competition, of feeling greater than or less than others? And these are human conversations, not even Christian conversations. So we've actually seen, um, wonderful things happen in mixed groups where some people identify with faith and others maybe not, or they have some curiosity and they can all talk about these inner workings. And then we point people towards the wisdom of Jesus in these things. And it's been it's been really exciting. So there's a there's a small group material that goes along with it that's available separately. But the book's called The Nine Fold Path of Jesus Hidden Wisdom of the Beatitudes.

Alicia Granholm: Mark, thank you so much for joining us today and sharing your wisdom and insight. I feel like we could talk to you for a few more hours.

Mark Scandrette: Yeah, it's been wonderful. And I, um, I'm so as you can see, I'm enthusiastic about this because I know what what it's done in my life and how it's changed my heart and brought me into new rhythms. And so I'm excited to share, share what I, what I'm discovering with others, too.

Dwight Zscheile: Well, thanks, Mark, and to our audience. Thank you for joining us on this episode of pivot. To help spread the word about pivot, please like and subscribe. If you're catching us on YouTube or if you're listening, head to Apple Podcasts and leave a review. It really helps.

Alicia Granholm: Finally, the best compliment you can give us is to share pivot with a friend. Until next time. This is Alicia Granholm and Dwight Zscheile signing off. We'll see you next week.

Faith+Lead: The Pivot Podcast is a production of Luther Seminary's Faith lead. Faith lead is an ecosystem of theological resources and training designed to equip Christian disciples and leaders to follow God into a faithful future. Learn more at faithlead.org.