Summary

In this conversation, Jothy Rosenberg interviews Joe Hammill and Stephanie Rieben about their backgrounds and their work in the venture capital industry. They discuss the state of venture capital and fundraising, highlighting the challenges faced by both founders and investors. They also share insights on what founders often get wrong about fundraising and the importance of grit in the startup world. Joe and Stephanie explain their business model at Diadem Capital, which aims to connect private companies with private capital and provide a platform for curated deal flow. They emphasize the value of trust and alignment in their approach.

Takeaways

The state of venture capital has changed recently, with lower capital deployment and liquidity constraints for LPs.

Founders often have misconceptions about fundraising, such as expecting venture capital to fund the building of their business.

Grit is essential in the startup world, and it can be developed over time through experiences and a mindset of perseverance.

Diadem Capital aims to create a private markets ecosystem by connecting private companies with private capital and providing curated deal flow.

Trust and alignment are crucial in the venture capital industry, and Diadem Capital's success-based fee model helps incentivize collaboration.

Sound Bites

"Last year was one of the lowest capital deployment years in a long time."

"Venture capital accelerates already built businesses."

"Don't try to push your valuation up too high because you can really screw yourself.”

Links

Diadem Capital’s website: https://diademcapital.com/

Please leave us a review: https://podchaser.com/DesigningSuccessfulStartups

Tech Startup Toolkit (book): https://www.manning.com/books/tech-startup-toolkit

Jothy’s website: https://jothyrosenberg.com

Who Says I Can’t Foundation: https://whosaysicant.org

Jothy’s TEDx talk: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNtOawXAx5A

Chapters

00:00 Introduction and Backgrounds

04:18 The State of Venture Capital and Fundraising

08:14 Misconceptions about Fundraising

15:30 Diadem Capital's Business Model

20:22 Helping VCs Build Syndicates

23:28 The Role of Grit in Success

27:54 Personal Stories of Grit

35:00 Overcoming Challenges and Staying Optimistic

And here's Joe and Stephanie. Hi, you guys.

Thanks for having us, Jothy.

Hi, Joppie.

I'm thrilled to have you. So here's how I like to start these. I like to ask people, because everybody's always interested, I like to ask you where you're originally from and where do you live now? So Joe, you first.

Okay, I am originally from Rochester, New York. I've lived in a bunch of different places and currently there's a small little hint in my background of where I actually am right now, which is Buffalo, New York, where we're headquartered. I like to say I am a long Josh Allen throw from the stadium, which is about two miles away. And yes, I do believe he can throw it two

Okay, Stephanie, you've been all over the world. where are you from originally? What town in Germany?

Right, yeah.

Yes, originally born in Frankfurt, raised in a small town called Tria, which is on the western border to Luxembourg. It's actually the oldest city of Germany, which I always talk about. Pat was one of the three Roman capitals of the Roman Empire, so has lots of Roman ruins, over 2000 years old, so give that US. But studied in Switzerland afterwards, came to New York City 18 years ago, and I'm still in New York, married a Frenchman.

but we're here in the suburbs of New York City called Westchester as the county and the town is called

So did you learn English at a really early age?

Yeah, so that's another part that makes it more complicated. But I grew up for five years, so from two months old until the age of five in Virginia. So technically, my first language was even English because my dad worked for GE for 35 years and was with their robotics division in Charlottesville, Virginia back then in the 80s. So I spent five years there. But then I did the whole school system in Germany. So elementary school through graduating high school.

Okay, so.

Okay, so you don't have any accent in English. Do you have an accent when you speak German?

It's.

I don't know. I speak to my parents German every day when I call them and then I have two kids that speak German to me every day. So we're a trilingual household. German, French and

And then, do you have an accent when you speak French?

yeah. Definitely.

So you speak to your husband in French, but the kids speak German?

No, we speak English. So my husband and always speak English. And then I speak German to the kids and he speaks French to the kids. So I have a two year old and a four year old, two boys.

So you're going to get the kids to be trilingual too. Wow.

Yeah, so the four year old speaks all three languages perfectly already, which is like great.

that is so amazing. mean, the number of Americans that are even bilingual is like, can just like a very small, it's just terrible. I mean, my wife and I tried, we both studied French a lot. She was actually a French major in college. We've both been to France a lot. We understand it perfectly, but you get rusty so quickly. I even went to school in France. I went to the University of

Yeah.

nice, so Strasbourg is super close to Trier where I'm from. It's like two hours.

Well, Strasbourg used to be in Germany.

Right. Olive Alsace, yeah, yeah.

Right?

Yeah. Okay. So Stephanie, talk a little bit about, let's just jump right into the technical stuff, the business stuff. So talk about your views on the state of venture and in the market today. It's definitely changed recently.

And I would love to hear your thoughts on

Yeah, no, sure. Happy to talk about it. So since we're a business that helps startups fundraise, we're quite in the middle of it, right? So we hear every day from startups how it's hard to fundraise, but we also hear every day from VCs how it's hard to fundraise. So I'm always on the investor side. Joe's always on the founder side. So he may have other views than I do. But from the investor side, what I am hearing is number one, last year was like one of the lowest capital deployment years in like a long time since like 2021.

highs, but then also even before that. And a lot of VCs are hurting right now because they're not able to raise the funds that they wanted to raise. Hence, they deploy less capital. And then what I've just heard last week, actually, a lot of VC funds, their LPs are not making their capital calls. Like the LPs are having liquidity constraints that they can't even meet the commitments that they had said, okay, we're going to put

2 million this year or whatever the size is, they're just not able to manage their capital calls and just defaulting. So that's like a big issue we're seeing right now. So my view is more like, let's get this year over. Hopefully we have some great cuts that will bring liquidity back to the market and then that will help like startups. We've been able to fundraise for startups. We've been able to match them. It's getting better, but we're just not back to like where it used to be.

mean, the capital calls, I mean, there's a contract that says they have to honor the capital calls that they commit to.

Yeah, I don't know what the legal repercussions are, but I've been hearing that, like, VCs are having trouble collecting that money, so.

I I think that this is one of those situations where what's the VC firm going to do? You can't go start suing your LPs. If you do, you'll never raise money again.

Hopefully other ones are re -upping. So then I guess they go to the ones that are deploying saying, hey, how about increasing your commitment so they can make up for

Yeah, well, I've definitely been hearing how hard it is to, so I don't really talk that to VCs that much about how their process is going, but I'm sort of on the same side of things that you are Joe. it's just, it's brutal out there for the startups.

Yeah, it's a world of have and have nots. And there's a lot of headlines in TechCrunch that paint probably a rosier picture than what is actually out there for founders. So I talked to all different types of founders, first time founders, pedigree founders, repeat founders with successful exits and trying to...

Where I see the biggest struggle sometimes with founders, especially with first time founders, they have this idea that venture capital funds the building of your business. They do not do that. Venture capital accelerates already built businesses. The only ones who are able to have venture capital build their business are repeat founders who have successfully proven they can do this or

really highly pedigreed founders. so there's this, sometimes that's a hard conversation that I have to have with founders explaining like no one, it's really hard to get funding in the earliest stages if you haven't already built your product and having some revenue traction if you've never raised venture capital

Well, that's true for VCs. what I say to founders is, look, in the earliest days, go try to do friends and family, just to get half a million. And I did that for Dover. And then I went out and was working with Angels. Angels are the group

Well, most angels will fund before there's any revenue, but they they need to see some proof. They need to see some I mean they need to see Great market big problem. You have a solution for it. And here's a little proof that you have in some form that you can do it and and and it was only because there was

There's a few firms, both in Silicon Valley and in Boston, that are very focused on seed stage. And they will fund side by side sometimes with an angel. That's what we did. We got an angel group and a seed stage fund. And they invested in the idea. And I was a multi -time founder, so that was helpful.

And of course, as you guys know, it got really tough for us later. And that's when we started to work

Yes. Over the early days, we got you some good intros. It was still a challenging. That was right when the market had started to shift. And if you had raised nine months earlier, it would have been that's when everyone that's when money was free. And they were just passing it out. And everyone could raise money at that time. And

All of sudden, as soon as interest rates went up, people started being more selective with what they were deploying.

So, Joe, this is kind of on the topic that you talk a lot about, about what founders get wrong about fundraising. Is there anything more you want to say about what they get wrong?

So I think in general, we do like an open office hours every other week. And I kind of say the same thing every time, which is there's three types of founders and there's three levers that you can pull in a fundraise. So I already said the types of founders. You have a repeat founder who has successfully exited and made money for their investors. That's a big caveat.

Did they have a good exit for their investors? Then you have pedigree founders. So those are ones at early tech startups, really big. if they're, or it's the Facebook, the Googles, and their Stanford MBAs, right? That's kind of the pedigree. And then 95 % of the other founders are first time founders. so they, founders always give advice and they try and be helpful, but,

founders are really bad at giving the context of why that advice worked uniquely for them versus they then give advice to a founder and the founder's like, well, I have a very successful founder telling me to do this. Well, right, but that founder has already successfully exited a business that those rules don't apply. And so for first time founders, you have the traction or signal lever and then you have valuation.

Those are really the levers that you can pull. You either need some kind of traction or signal to show that you are a good bet outside of the box, or you have, if you don't have it all, then you have to compromise on valuation. And sometimes that's where founders don't want to. They're like, well, no, I'm raising my million dollar pre -seed on a safe note at a 10 or 15 million cap.

cap for

So, right, so people get all wrapped around the axle about a few things that I just wish they didn't. One is their current valuation of their company. they, you know, if you've got something that's gonna be a barn burner, fine, it's gonna work out. But don't try to push your valuation up too high because you can really screw yourself if you push your valuation

And then you hit a speed bump, which you're going to, and then your valuation comes down. And that's horrible. And the other thing that people just don't understand is dilution. So they'll say, well, no, I don't want to bring in more money because it's going to dilute me more. Well, it's like, well,

Don't you need that money to scale and grow? Because if you don't, then the dilution is going to be the least of your problems.

and it doesn't matter because you're zero.

Right.

I always like to say the only valuation that truly matters is your

Yes, of course. And what I say to, so I'll be sitting around. I do a all company meeting every week, you know, once a week, and I'll be talking and say, okay, so we're going to be bringing this much in. And so there's going to be this much dilution in the company and people start going, I could see them think, you know, my God, what is my stake worth? And I said, now just remember something.

Let's suppose there's a dilution of 10 % because we brought in somebody and we had to create more shares. But what if the valuation went up by 2x? Now, does that matter to you? Because the end result is, oh, I'm worth more. So it's OK.

They focus on dilution. So, okay, so look, it's unusual to talk to somebody that's involved with helping raise money and themselves participating in funding companies that is also a startup. And Joe, in fact, you've done like four of these. So you guys are a startup.

Maybe I'll go back to you, Steph, and say, what is it that you're doing? What is it you're trying to build?

Yeah, no, I'm glad you asked. So basically what we always explain to founders and then investors and then investors that invest in us is we're creating a model where we're very founder aligned, but at the same time for incentivizing investors to work with us. So what we're doing is we're bringing two parties together. Our slogan is basically to create a private markets ecosystem where we're connecting private companies to private capital.

We're doing it all for a success based fee, which is a very low success based fee. So we charge 3 % on equity intros, 1 % on debt intros, and it's only on the capital we introduce. So it's a big anti -banker model, number one. So the traditional bankers, investment bankers, they charge like minimum 5%, but we've heard it go up to like as high as like 14 % like a couple months ago, somebody told us. They do it on the full round, not just like the capital they actually bring in. Then they have high retainer fees like monthly to help them with

pitch deck fine, but also crazy models that nobody needs that like seed stage like M &A style, like financial models with like all these different scenarios. You don't need that at that stage. And then investors don't like that model like of the investment bankers that charge a 10 because they're like, well, that's super dilutive technically to the capital I bring in. Like if they're writing a five million check and you know already like a big chunk is going to paying off some banker, that's not what they like. So what we're doing

We're also sending investors deal flow free of charge completely that's pre vetted. So yes, we are a platform. We've built the tech, it's onboarding. I always compare it to Airbnb when an investor logs in and you can see houses on Airbnb and investor logs in and sees deals, but very specific curated. So at a given time, they might just see two deals. And at a given time, we only work with maybe eight or 10 founders because we're focused on number one, fundability.

So we're trying to get these guys funded. Right now we're hovering at like a 75 % founder funded rate of like all the founders we've ever worked with. They actually got, most of them got funded. We helped like 33 companies raise over $142 million. So we're really proud of that because we've only been around for two and a half years. So we're a venture backed FinTech startup ourselves. We're still pre -seed and we're working on B2B SaaS companies, FinTech, cybersecurity as you know, like all different sectors.

where we're working with C to series C startups, predominantly US and North America focused, so Canada, but we also look at Western Europe. Our very first deal was actually German CEO. And the second deal was like a UK deal. But after that, we really only did Canada and US, but we're open to obviously Western Europe. But most of the investors that we have by now, and we're almost at a thousand investors and lenders, like firms, we have mostly US. And we're basically creating this ecosystem of great matching them

and VC sent us 75 % of the deal flow we've done so far was actually VCs and lenders directly sending us their active portcodes or borrowers. And they're saying, oh, Diatom, you're so helpful. Your fee is reasonable. You're a value add because you're actually getting more capital into our companies. So that's been great. And we just had our third repeat client, which we're really proud of. So we've helped a seed stage company do

debt round. We helped the series A company do a debt round. We have like a debt deal that then upsized their facility and got more debt into their rounds. I'm really proud of that. And I'll stop here. I'll let Joe add some more of his two cents.

Yeah, no, it's, you know, at the end of the day, what we've built is really a trust marketplace, because the reason intermediaries haven't succeeded in the past within this particular industry is it's just that either the fees or the quality of deals haven't been there.

or they try and hide behind their fees. So there's a lack of trust that an intermediary can do right by everyone involved. And so that's where we've come in and we've aligned the success of the investor, of the founder and us, right? That's an important thing too, is we have to be venture scalable as well. And how do you, you aren't able to do that with a platform that charges a SaaS fee.

Because eventually what you're going to do is instead of looking at how fundable the company is, will they pay me $8 ,000 upfront or $10 ,000 upfront? It becomes a revenue game. And for us, we only get paid on success. So we have to be confident that A, our founders will fund and B, our investors are going to like that company, that founder and want to deploy capital into

So do you see where a VC who's maybe going to lead a deal and is put in a term sheet, but is now wanting to build out their syndicate, do they see you as a way to help them do that?

Yeah, most definitely. they so typically they come to us and say, okay, we let it pre seed seed, we're not going to lead at a find us a lead. But we've also gotten, hey, we're the lead. went to our co investor buddies, typically every VC fund seems to have like 20 to 30 funds they typically exchange deal flow with and then that stops. There's 6000 VC funds in the US alone. So we've tapped just a tiny part of that. But we've been able to introduce them to other VCs that then come into around

So that's actually a new SaaS model. We're trying to also test out for investors to come to us and be like, hey, we can show you co -investors for a fee, and then we're not going to actually meet the founder. But generally, we bring in co -investors into rounds and can help on debt and equity at the same time. So we've done also both at the same time. Like a lender comes to us and says, we want to underwrite this debt deal, but we need more equity into the business so we can do it. And then we help get more equity, and then they can underwrite the debt.

Yeah, I always say to founders, look, you have your network, right? And then the investors have their network. But the total network is huge. And the only reason we can exist is because everything is so siloed and fragmented that the biggest investors in the in the industry, the Sequoias, the Andreasons do not have contacts at every single family office, emerging manager, all the VCs, no one has

So that's how we're able to exist.

Yeah, yeah.

No, I'm recording a podcast.

I will edit that out. Wait, I have to wave so I can see it when I'm editing.

So can find it, yeah, yeah.

Okay, so I like to always talk about grit because everybody, no matter what role they play in the startup community, is there because they identified that they have a bunch of grit and they can do this, because it's really hard, whether you're a founder, whether you're an investor. Well, they have it a lot easier.

And what you guys are doing isn't any different. You guys are startup. I I saw you guys, you're scrappy because you weren't called Diadem Capital when I was working with you. I don't honestly remember what you were called.

Well, it was always dying down capital, but we were part of another entity at one point, but then we spun out. just to allude to like the grip part, I mean, it's a hustle, right? And it's a roller coaster ride. And when you're on the upward trajectory on the roller coaster, it's so much fun. But when it goes down real fast, you're like, shoot. Because it's like, it's an up and down, right? And we're a transaction oriented business. So we have a great big deal close. We're like, yes, awesome. We got like a lot of money into this deal. We're super excited. And then we're pumped.

The investors are happy with great reviews, but then there's like a couple deals where there's not as much interest. And then we're like, hmm, maybe there's some sectors we shouldn't get into. So now we've learned like CPG consumer is really hard on the equity side, trying to get equity investments in. It's much better suited for debt if they have good revenue and they need like inventory financing or they need accounts payable financing or like a factoring shop.

there we can help. But on the equity side, VCs, for example, want like for a consumer company to be approaching like 10 million in revenue. If it's like a product like food and beverage, they want them to be in like 4 ,000 stores. That's like Whole Foods nationwide and Wegmans nationwide and like all those stores. It's like a ton. So we've learned that over time, sometimes you have to be selective. And that's like what it means to be a startup, right? You still figure out what's the ICP and like what works, what doesn't work.

It's fun to be with startups and helping startups at the same time.

That's great. I want to get this to be a little bit more personal. Stephanie, where do you think your grit comes

that's enabling you to do this.

Well, go back to the teardrop story of the immigrant story, right? Coming to the US and having to elbow your way into investment banking, that was tough for me. mean, Joe and I met at Citi, so he spent 10 years there, I spent eight years there. So I think it comes from that, having to always been the underdog and the outsider and coming in and trying to

Well, was that a male dominated industry?

100 % White male dominated and definitely American and not very many immigrants or people with an accent I tried to assimilate but actually I don't know if he'll ever watch this video but like my boss always made fun of my accident about the way I said things that was always really upset about it but I appreciate you saying that I don't have an accident I do know I know have a slight accent still laugh I try to be a spy you just don't know where I'm from in the US who knows where Boston maybe too

Well, Boston people have a lot stronger accent than you ever will. OK, so you had to kick ass because you're an immigrant and a woman. But you're white, so you didn't have to worry about that part.

You do not have a Boston accent.

and a woman.

In the summer I'm darker.

in a male dominated industry, in a particularly, I think, somewhat vicious male dominated industry, honestly. I

Yeah, everything has changed a lot in like the last decade, but

I mean, I watched The Wolf of Wall Street. actually read the book and watched the movie. And did you see some of those kind of

Yeah, it's actually one of my favorite movies, but

Yeah, especially on the trading floor. It's even worse than an investment banking. Yeah, for sure. Because I did half half. did half my career investment banking half on the trading floor. That's where Joe and I met. We were on the same team. sat back to back on the trading floor.

And that's where you met Joe.

I mean, the

That's where you have zero privacy, because you're on the trading floor sitting next to each other. You hear everything, what everybody's talking about.

Yeah, there's no secrets on the trading floor. Everyone sits three feet apart. It's all open.

It just sounds insane. And when things get heated, mean, it just sounds like the stress is palpable. Okay, Joe, you have always seemed to me to be a guy with a fair amount of grit, but I never asked this question of you before. yeah, so other than being a fan of the Buffalo Bills, which of course requires a hell of a lot of grit,

Yeah.

saying here they are going to win the Super Bowl this year. Mark my words, they are, they might not be betting favorites, but I believe in Josh Allen and that bill's defense this

Okay, and if they could beat Kansas City, that would be great, because I'm kind of tired of seeing Kansas

Me too.

Yeah. So tell me more about your grip, your source of

You know, I think.

The perfectly honest answer is I don't know. I've always had it. So for example, I have always been driven and motivated. I had little businesses, yard cleaning, lemonade stands. I've always wanted money and purchasing power. The day I turned 14, I had my working card and I went and I had a job already lined

I worked the day after my 14th birthday was my first shift because

I don't even know what a working card is. What is

You have to, so at least in New York state, it's probably different state by state. If you are under the age, I think it's 16, you have to actually go to your school and get a working permit. And you're only allowed to work certain hours. You can't work like during the work week past eight o 'clock or something. I worked weekends at a restaurant and

We

I've always because I wanted things. wanted my sisters all had little 13 inch TVs in their bedroom. I wanted a 20 inch, right? I always wanted something bigger and better than what they had. And my parents were like, okay, fine, get a job. And then for the next two years, they had to drive me every weekend, everywhere. They picked me up from work, dropped me off at work. I didn't have a license yet. When I went to school, I originally went to Ohio State. I started my own painting company there.

exterior residential painting. I didn't care about school. I just wanted to build a painting company. I had two trucks. I had like 10 employees. It was crazy. I leased an office myself, a painting company. We didn't need an office. I didn't know how to do accounting. All my accounting was wrong, but I had an office, right? And so I've always had this drive that I've even

Well, you wait? Did you finish at Ohio State?

No, no. I, so this is part of grit. So I ended up voluntarily myself stopping Ohio State before they told me, we don't want you anymore. Ran this painting business right into the ground. It didn't matter anyways, because it was 2007. The world was about to blow up anyways. And guess what would have been the first thing people cut from their budget? Painting the exterior of their house. Yes. So then I moved up to Michigan.

Painted.

So I was there with my sister and at her time boyfriend and now husband. And the three of us lived up there. I got into HVAC. I had no idea how to do any of this, but I was selling heating and cooling equipment residentially in Lansing, Michigan before the car companies were bailed out. So all the car companies were. Yep, yep, that's exactly it. And then.

you went from Ohio State to Michigan State.

I had to have one of those moments where it's like, what am I doing with my life? Do I want to be an HVAC salesman the rest of my life? No. So I moved home, moved to my parents' basement, went to community college in Rochester, got straight A's, transferred out to SUNY Albany, where I met my wife. And from there, I had a laser focus of getting to Wall Street. I wanted to work down in the city at a Wall Street bank.

and I was SUNY Albany. So through networking, getting good grades, I corrected mistakes I had made in the past. I was able to get an internship at Citi. And when I went down there to interview and got these interviews, people looked at me and they're like, they're holding my resume. They're like, SUNY Albany, how the hell did you get here? I'm like, I'm a good old fashioned way, just by walking and knocking, you know, like make a joke.

No.

So there is a pedigree to get into Wall Street. And it's what makes it even difficult for, although I am a white male, I wasn't the type that typically gets down there or up there on your location. And it's because I'm from SUNY Albany. They're like, what the hell is a state school? They don't recruit from Albany. The amount of people each year

No kidding.

graduate from SUNY Albany who land the front office roles in investment banks. Super small, probably count them on one hand. And so it's just, I had a goal, I was able to get through it and you work your way through it. And I don't know what causes me to think like that and dream big and set these really big ambitious goals and then start.

a company with Stephanie and we have these big ambitious goals. It's just, it's how I've always been wired since I was the earliest age.

That's cool. So, mean, I'm trying to picture you in a Wall Street bank wearing a suit and I just can't imagine

I do.

Like if somebody hustles and stuff,

well, I did for a long time. I would refuse, thankfully no tie. I'm not a tie guy. I always describe myself of I am an Irish bar, not total dive Irish bar, but on the lower end of things. don't like fancy. Give me there a nice cold beer and a shot of Jameson and good stories.

He was doing it.

Well, you just told a good story. so, so, so thank you. So it's really, it's really interesting because, my wife is from Dayton, Ohio and everyone, everyone in her family, everyone went to the Ohio state and, and they love, they love, the fact that I'm from Michigan. And so they love bashing Michigan, except lately I've been able to turn the tables

Ha ha.

yeah, I know.

Yeah, not so good the past couple of years,

you

Well, it's good from my perspective. But, and my brother went to Michigan State, but I never, I mean, I passed through Lansing, but I've never spent any time there. I don't even know what it's like. Cause I went to Kalamazoo College, you know, way over on the Western part of the state. Gigantic 1400 student school. It was just awesome. But that was a great story.

yup.

You know, I think these grit stories are always fascinating. You never know what you're going to get when you ask somebody about where their grit comes

Yeah, I think I've always had it, but I don't think that that's the only way. I think you can develop grit over time and through experiences. I've always been that way, but you can develop that. And it's a mental mindset of, look, I'll tell you who the grittiest founders are, solo founders. I don't know how a solo founder does it because without Stephanie,

It's so hard, like you know Jathi, it is so hard building and there's self doubt that creeps in at times. You have a really good day and then you have a terrible day and you're like, what am I doing? Right? And it's just having that strength of having a good partner who can help level those highs and lows so that it's always a roller coaster, but at

You need the help when you go down on the bad days. Those are the hardest days for founders. And that's where that grit and just saying, you know what? I'm gonna go to bed and I'm gonna wake up tomorrow and it's gonna be a better goddamn day.

Yeah. Yep. Well, you know, doing nine startups, I had some very dark days, very dark days. And this one, the darkest, the cybersecurity one, you know, just so hard. This one was so hard. know, after, you know, we parted ways, I ended up having to lay off everybody in the company.

No.

except for me, and rebuild it. And now we're selling it. And we'll see how that goes. I think it's not going to be an awesome sale. I've gotten to the point where what I want is to see this amazing technology with all these patents, patents plaques are up on the wall right there, turn into something.

And what it needs is a lot more resources than we can ever bring to bear. So we need to get bought by somebody big who cares about it, who values it. you know, and presumably I would work with them for a couple of years to, you know, integrate it in and whatnot. But well, anyway, look, this has been great. think we're at a good we're at a good stopping point.

I really appreciate you guys doing this. It's a different perspective to talk to somebody that does, that's in this middle point between the sources of funding and, and the people that need it. and I, I hope you do so well because it is such a great idea. It is such, you can make founders lives so much better. And it sounds like you, really have a nice value.

proposition to the VCs who don't necessarily always have who they want to build that syndicate. And they want to probably move quickly to fill out their syndicate. Once they've made a decision that this is something they want to do. you know, if somebody's doing a series A, you know, great, you lead the series A and you're up for 5 million, except the total round needs to be 10. Right. So that's a, that's a, that's a more reasonable size for a series A 10, maybe 15.

So anyway, we're gonna obviously.

Yep. And we don't want to say it's all doom and gloom out there. We are seeing positive growth. It's slow. There's signals. We just had our first deal this year where we got multiple investors in. So one of our deals now has four investors and counting. It's just deals are getting done. They're just harder. The bar is higher than what it was

two, three years

And we are optimistic for next year, right? As rate cuts come, the IPO market will open up, which will open up some liquidity options for all of these funds, all of these LPs. And we think that will trickle down into the earliest stages of fundraising by the end of next

That is great.