We often assume that once we get everyone in a room and reach agreement on an architecture, the hard part is over. But what happens when the workshop goes perfectly, everyone nods along, puts their sticky note on "Yes, I support this," and then four weeks later... nobody has shipped anything?

That's the pattern Xin Yao encountered twice in her career—separated by seven years and what should have been much better facilitation techniques the second time around. In her first story, Xin orchestrated a multi-day integration architecture workshop for a major financial institution. Cross-functional teams aligned on APIs, event-driven patterns, and walked away with a clear action list. Four weeks later, an engineering manager asked the question nobody wanted to hear: "Did you notice anybody was excited about it?" The answer was no. The work? Also no.

Seven years later, armed with Event Storming and collaborative modeling techniques, Xin tried again. This time it was a DDD workshop during COVID, with real-time collaboration and all the right practices. But the timeline wouldn't merge, participants couldn't walk through the model without Xin taking over, and the board ended up more red (hotspots and conflicts) than orange (domain events). In the retrospective, someone said: "The whiteboard doesn't compile." Another admitted: "We didn't want to ruin it for you—you had so much passion."

This conversation explores the gap between facilitation techniques and the emotional safety required to make them work. We dig into why "success theater" happens, how to invite dissent from the very beginning, and why architects need to remember they're "feeling machines that think"—not thinking machines that feel.

Key Discussion Points

* [00:01] The Flying Squad: Xin's role as an integration architect parachuting into a multi-day workshop for a major CRM integration project

* [06:00] Agreement Without Excitement: Four weeks after a "successful" workshop, the action list sits untouched—nobody shipped

* [08:00] The Event Storming That Wouldn't Merge: Seven years later with better techniques, but the timeline clusters, the facilitator becomes the bottleneck, and the board turns red

* [12:00] "The Whiteboard Doesn't Compile": Why participants stayed silent when the entry and exit events were wrong from the start

* [16:00] Taking the Authority Out: How Xin learned to say "I'm a couple steps ahead, not the expert—trust your own experience"

* [21:00] Inviting Dissent Early: The heuristic of pausing every 10 minutes to ask "What would you say if you didn't have to be polite?"

* [36:00] Connection Before Content: Why breaking into small groups of three creates the safety to surface real concerns

* [38:00] Feeling Machines That Think: The role of emotion in architectural decision-making and why facilitators need to invite emotional language into the room

**Guest:** Xin Yao

**Hosts:** Andrew Harmel-Law, Kenny Schwegler, Andrea Magnorsky

*Part of the Stories on Facilitating Software Architecture and Design series from Virtual DDD.*

Andrew Harmel-Law: Hello and welcome

to another episode of facilitating

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software design and architecture.

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And this time we've got Shin with

us, who's I'm sure got a super

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exciting story to share with us.

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And I'm Andrew Harma Law, and

I'm here with my co-conspirators,

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Andrea Mag Norski and Kenny Bosch.

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Regular.

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Over to you, shouldn.

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Xin Yao: Thank you.

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Thank you for inviting me.

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To, uh, uh, this, first

episode of the new year, 2026.

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I'm, uh, excited.

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so today I think I'm

just, uh, I'm gonna tell.

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Mm.

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Two stories related about

architecture enabling.

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I'm gonna tell them short and

sweet and then I look forward to,

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having a conversation about it with

you rather than, you know, just,

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giving you my learning points.

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So, I hope it's gonna

be, fun for you as well.

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Um, right.

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So, um.

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as long as I can remember, I

have been this kind of a fixer.

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Everybody knows me as a person

that can fix things, especially

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complex architecture stuff.

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So I've been, um, in this,

boundary spending role for, maybe.

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15 years at least.

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The first story I'm gonna tell is, at

that time there was no enabling architect.

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The road didn't exist.

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So, uh, I've got, you know, I've been

part of, something called a flying squad.

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So flying squad is kind of like,

if you're, you have a fire,

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then you fly people in from the

flying squad to put out the fire.

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And, in this case I was the integration

architect, um, uh, from the flying squad.

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And the thing is that I was working

for this big financial institution

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and, also at that time there was no.

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Um, legacy modern modernization.

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So the background is that, uh,

the, uh, um, this institution,

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this bank has decided to, buy a

new CRM system to replace, um, um.

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Actually as a new system to enable some of

new processes for their business banking

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and corporate and institution customers.

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And because there was no knowledge sharing

at that time, at, uh, at that point.

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And, and, uh, you see all these

account managers, they put their

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knowledge literally in shoe boxes.

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There is no knowledge sharing.

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So because of this thing, they're

only using the system for corporate

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banking and business banking.

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There's a.

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Whole private sector that

is not moving to the system.

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The complexity is kind of.

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and people need to find out a way

to basically, design a integration

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architecture that can make this, make

this work, make the business process work.

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So my job back then was to summon

all the teams that are going to be

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involved in supporting this integration

project, into a multi-day workshop.

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Fashion.

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It's kind of.

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Offsite and really dedicated.

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and so it's kind of like all the

core banking systems because for

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the data to go into the new CRM

system, you need the credit data.

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You need the customer data.

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You need the account.

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You need to the, the 360

view for every customer.

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And sometimes if you are a small business

customer, you are also a private.

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Customer, personal customer.

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So there is kind of this complex

business complexity as well.

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So the business people have

to be involved as well.

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So it's kind of a cross-functional

and a lot of teams.

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And the a kind of like a

prestige kind of gathering.

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So my role is actually to

facilitate kind of a decision,

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toward the target architecture,

target integration, architecture.

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Both from the business process perspective

and the data integration perspective and.

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went very well.

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I did my data gathering.

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did a lot of focus, group interviews

upfront and, in the workshop there

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were dedicated knowledge sharing

from different teams for the

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hotspot areas for people to get a.

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fair understanding.

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And we basically drew up, a sort

of a big service blueprint from,

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above, the visibility line, all the

way down to the data integration.

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It all went very well from my perspective.

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And people were very much playing

along and, and, and then so forth.

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And so we had, the, discussion about,

you know, we don't want this new

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project, this new initiative to become a.

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Opportunity

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to add into more, even more integration

points, because then, you know, there are

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a lot of custom integration solutions.

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We call them, system integrators.

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We want to do APIs and we

want to reuse and all that.

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So all the event driven, all

the API enablement was also

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part of that initiative.

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We, we, we.

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These are the principles and so forth.

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So we had a, we had a

integration architecture

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lined out, in different areas.

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And then we had the, at that time

it was, it was a beginning of

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the, I think the A GR was micro

nygard invented, coined in 2007.

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And that was two

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Andrew Harmel-Law: Yeah.

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Ruth Malan

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Xin Yao: Yeah.

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Andrew Harmel-Law: corrected

my book 'cause I said he

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invented it and Ruth said, no.

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Someone in the

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Xin Yao: oh, okay.

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Andrew Harmel-Law: wrote a blog

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Xin Yao: I had the same, I had the same

perception, but it was 2013 at that time.

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I remember it because that's

the year when my son was born.

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we tried to use it and people were quite

impressed about that process and so forth.

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Then I, that, that we ended those three

days with a long action list because a

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lot of people need to do a lot of things,

and balancing priorities and so forth.

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So the team leads all

went back and so forth.

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So that seems to be a story with

no, you know, twists and turns.

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But the feedback came

maybe four weeks later.

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And, because I wasn't part of

any of these teams, I was the,

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remember I was the flying squad.

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So when the managers got together

in a looking back meeting there was

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just, we found out, yeah, we aligned.

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Everybody agreed.

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And we even did the, uh, you know, I

remember we drew a line, on one side.

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It's, yes, and I support this.

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I'm totally on board.

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On the other is, yes, but, and

then most of the people put their.

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On the Yes.

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End.

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And so, so, so it was, we all aligned.

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Four weeks later, we

found out nobody did it.

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The action list was basically like,

yeah, what ha, what's happening?

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What's happening?

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I couldn't understand because

I put in a lot of hard work.

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I was the one key facilitator

and, and, and so forth.

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And then there was this

one annoying manager.

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he's an engineering manager and he was

just like, Hey, I think everybody agreed.

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Everybody was supportive, but did you

notice anybody was excited about it?

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She was like, no, there was no excitement.

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There was, there was no excitement.

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Everybody was playing the game.

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Nobody wanted to say micro, so,

so not microservice back then.

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It's API is bad.

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Nobody wanted to say in is bad.

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Nobody wanted to say, I don't

want to be part of this and.

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It was a top down orchestrated show.

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it's a success theater and, for me.

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So, so that was my personal

learning point at that time.

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Very simplistic.

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So that was story one.

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And then, you know, we also did

a lot of domain modeling because

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I was also all jazz about DDD.

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That's, that was the year when.

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Vernon's book came out, at

least that was the year when I

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read it, I was just like, okay.

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All, all jazz about that as well.

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Then the year, the, the, the, the

following years was in the sign of

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event storming a collaborative modeling,

so I was just like convinced that

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if we did collaborative modeling,

we, that would be a game changer.

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Those workshops would have

become a total success.

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fast forward seven years later,

just in the middle of COVID.

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I did, a similar exercise.

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I was no longer part of the flying squad.

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I was the DDD evangelist, another enabling

role in an events dorming workshop

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for a cherry picked core domain in a

transformation project for the same

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organization So it was collaborative

modeling everybody was contributing.

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There was not so much contribution

in the first workshop.

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It was all pre, orchestrated and this time

it's all real time and so forth, right?

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And, and, and people put on the

sticky note, but then when we were

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supposed to merge the timeline.

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I break loose, because I, um, I, I, I

basically, I was just like, they were,

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the energy was so high when people wrote

all those, sticky notes after merging

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the timeline, which is like, I still,

I still saw those clusters, like people

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didn't want to merge their timeline.

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And so, so after a lot of persuading

out of, a lot of convincing, um,

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I was just like saying, oh, okay,

we didn't have to do it perfect.

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and this is an experiment.

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It's reiterative.

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let's just do this.

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So we got kind of a.

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Timeline merged.

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Hallelujah.

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That was half a day the time

we were totally, you know,

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exceeding the timeframe.

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I was a allocating for, usually

merging the timeline wasn't hard,

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you know, people were just, having

a little discussion and so forth.

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But then in the afternoon after lunch,

the brain was already a little used.

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and then we were supposed to do

the explicit walkthrough and then

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in the best collaborative modeling

fashion, I did an example and then

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I encouraged people to take over.

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the people who took over had a hard

time, harmonizing the different inputs,

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and there were a lot of questions, a

lot of really polite, but really a lot

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of questions they couldn't continue.

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So at one point, one person said to me, S.

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We had nobody had, your skills.

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You have to take over

if we want to proceed.

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in fact, the architect of the team

said that, so I had to, uh, uh, took

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over and they, in the end, uh, we

ended up with more hotspots than, the

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orange, sticky notes, literally, if

you look at the board, the picture.

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It was more red than orange.

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Um, because that was kind of like, okay,

we, uh, Alberto has this rush to the go.

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You need to see the forest

before you can see the trees.

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So we just keep encouraging people

to say, let's, let's, for whatever,

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um, um, uh, effort that it, it needs,

let's, let's construct the forest.

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And then at the end of the day,

we couldn't do the value thing.

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In the end, there was no time.

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And I could feel there was something

missing, but I didn't want to go

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there because it's supposed to work.

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all other event storming sessions work.

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Why couldn't this one work?

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I the next point, because

we had a big DDD roadmap.

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The next point is the DDD,

boundary context canvas.

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I had no boundary context candidates

and I was very, very much sy about it.

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the day ended really not well.

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And those, that's the second story.

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And it ended by a retrospective, when

I was actually asking people to in the

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day afterwards, to do a retrospective.

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And people were actually

very frank with me.

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one person.

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I remember this, this one per, there

were two, there were several comments.

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One is, we only see trees, no forests.

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'cause that was my mantra.

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The other person, another person said.

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the whiteboard doesn't compile because

my passion about event storming is

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that at the end of the day, you almost

have a whiteboard that compiles, right?

219

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You have this cadence

220

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Andrew Harmel-Law: Hmm.

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Xin Yao: he was like

saying it doesn't compile.

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Then I had an individual

conversation afterwards with these

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two people and I found out it's

one of the reason is because.

224

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the precondition for this whole event

storming was the entry and exit event

225

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was decided by the domain architects

and they didn't really agree.

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The team didn't really agree with

the entry and exit architect, event.

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And the architect was in the

meeting, was in the workshop.

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So nobody wanted to go there.

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A lot of questions and so forth.

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And it was again, um, this, this thing.

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And, uh, I'm just like,

it is so easy to have.

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Why didn't nobody?

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Tell me.

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Right.

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And then, I asked the second person,

who took, well, there was a third

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one saying that girl said you sing,

you are too in love with your model.

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I said, why didn't anybody say anything?

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Because at that time, I

already got this information.

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She said, you know, we all respected you.

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You had so much passion,

you had so much, energy.

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We didn't want to ruin it for you.

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And we, we, we, we, we wanted to,

we wanted also to make it work.

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that was what I got.

244

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That was the second story.

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there was a, you know, longer ending

to the story, but I wanted to stop

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here and think it's already been long.

247

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there's a lot of learning, but

I want to invite you to tell me

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what is your immediate reaction?

249

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What are your thinking there?

250

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There's not, um, there's a way

more data than I was having time to

251

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share, but you had some impressions.

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So tell me.

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Andrew Harmel-Law: One that strikes me.

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'cause I've this is like,

255

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and I think you almost

exactly said this shit, right?

256

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Sometimes you need to do a big

thing and then you put a lot

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of effort into the big thing.

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And then everyone comes to the big thing.

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because it's a big thing and

everyone knows it's important,

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everybody's terrified to say

maybe the big thing isn't working.

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'cause I feel that all the time.

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It's, it's terrifying.

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Um, yeah.

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That's, do you think there's, from lessons

that you've learned, do you think there's

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any ways to like, 'cause I've seen Alberto

Alberto, like when he's done it with me,

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he talks about playing event storming.

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So he is trying to like reduce the.

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We're just gonna have fun.

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It doesn't matter if it succeed

or not, which I, for a long

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Xin Yao: Mm

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Andrew Harmel-Law: realize

how important that was.

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Xin Yao: mm.

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Andrew Harmel-Law: of, any

lessons learned or things that

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you've realized maybe would help

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Xin Yao: Yeah.

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Andrew Harmel-Law: if you were

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Xin Yao: So, um, I can totally, yeah.

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Uh, that's, that's, that's

really a lot of resonating there.

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and I think that since 2020 I'm

still on my own leading edge of

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understanding and, growing from all this.

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there's, there's, a couple of things.

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one is that.

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These days.

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So the fun part is really, an element.

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But if you look behind the fun that

is, I think that is kind of like

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to say in the beginning instead of

to say, I'm the enabling architect.

287

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I'm here to tell you what

the right way to do this is.

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these days I tend to say.

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know, I'm here to share some something,

some stuff, some shit I know.

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But, I am on the same learning journey.

291

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I'm probably just a couple

of steps ahead of you.

292

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I'm not there, so I don't want you to.

293

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Trust me for any of this, I want to

you to trust your own experience, so,

294

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but the next whatever, how many days

I want you to, to have an open mind

295

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for what I'm telling you, give it

a fair chance, but whether it works

296

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or whether it's not, it's up to you.

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So it's kind of like taking

the authority, taking the.

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I am here to fix you thing a

little bit out of the picture.

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That's one thing that,

that, that, that has worked.

300

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The other thing is inviting

dissent from the very beginning.

301

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Basically, I have a heuristic for my side.

302

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If I have shown people maybe four or

five slides of something or tell, have

303

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I've used at least 10 minutes to tell

something, I have to pause and I have to

304

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say, what are your doubts and concerns?

305

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if you didn't have to be

polite, what would you say?

306

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any of this that is, and

this stuff is totally useless

307

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from a current point of view.

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And if you're feeling the need to scroll

on your phone and if you're disengaging.

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So, so it's kind of like.

310

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That, um, also to basically

invite, you know, get to get that

311

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data that those, that entry and

exit events really didn't work.

312

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We could have saved a lot of time.

313

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So those are the two things

that popped into my mind.

314

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Yeah.

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00:16:15,121 --> 00:16:17,491

Andrea Magnorsky: There is a common

thread in the two stories, which is kind

316

00:16:17,491 --> 00:16:21,031

of what I think you're, you are saying,

Hey, I'm going to give you two stories.

317

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What do you say?

318

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And what I'm, what I'm sensing here

is that you are trying to learn about.

319

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to present yourself at the same time with,

with the, in a way that kind of, you're,

320

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you're basically, you know, stuff, right?

321

00:16:36,691 --> 00:16:40,591

And, and you're trying to

facilitate, and facilitation is

322

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about enabling collaboration, right?

323

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So, so you're trying to do that.

324

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Bring your technical knowhow, your

social system, building knowhow to

325

00:16:52,891 --> 00:16:59,071

this facilitative, both of those,

exercises, but how to do that and

326

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still kind of able to be excited

yourself and at the same time.

327

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get the feedback from what is

happening in the room and from

328

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people when it's not working.

329

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Uh, and, and sometimes, for example,

when you were talking about, especially

330

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in the storming one, I kind of was like,

okay, for me this, for my heuristics

331

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for the board is more pink or red than

orange, is we don't have the knowledge

332

00:17:24,036 --> 00:17:25,746

in the room or the setup is wrong.

333

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and then you went like,

well, you know, this.

334

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They just went along with the

setup and I was like, okay.

335

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Uh, okay.

336

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I, I was like, okay.

337

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It's nice to see that we

ended up in a similar place.

338

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But, I think a faci is hard.

339

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It's an underrated skill.

340

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It's extremely hard to learn unless

you're doing a lot, so it's like

341

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you're, you're trying to, yeah.

342

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Xin Yao: Yeah.

343

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Kenny Schwegler: Yeah.

344

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Xin Yao: This,

345

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Kenny Schwegler: Yeah.

346

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Xin Yao: yeah, and it, I, I think

it's true and, and sometimes we are

347

00:18:01,912 --> 00:18:06,982

maybe as facilitators a little bit

too, over enthusiastic about the

348

00:18:06,982 --> 00:18:11,002

technique, the methodology, event

storming, domain storytelling, the

349

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format, and sometimes when there is

a really, I think we know if we are

350

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really living in the moment, we sense.

351

00:18:19,127 --> 00:18:24,677

There is a high stake, high

sensitivity topic that wants to get

352

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out, but we don't go there sometimes.

353

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Yeah.

354

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Kenny Schwegler: Yeah, I want to talk

about that because your story reminds

355

00:18:31,435 --> 00:18:35,225

me of, I've dealt with the same

situation and then I dived into deep

356

00:18:35,225 --> 00:18:40,445

democracy, and they say, if you want to

go fast, first, you need to slow down.

357

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It's also what hes now saying

with their decision making, right?

358

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But first, you want to

go into the conflict.

359

00:18:46,825 --> 00:18:49,015

looking back at the first

session as well, right?

360

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In both sessions there

was a decision being made.

361

00:18:51,295 --> 00:18:52,555

And that's always interesting, right?

362

00:18:52,555 --> 00:18:56,605

Every time there's an autocratic

decision, resistance will start to pop up,

363

00:18:56,845 --> 00:18:59,575

especially, well, there's a nuance to it.

364

00:18:59,815 --> 00:19:04,285

If people agree with the decision,

it's fine, but you can bet in a big

365

00:19:04,285 --> 00:19:07,775

group that not everyone's right, and

the first decision is like, we're

366

00:19:07,775 --> 00:19:09,905

gonna do this to get to this point.

367

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And the second one was like,

we are gonna use these events.

368

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So these were already pre.

369

00:19:15,575 --> 00:19:22,635

Disposed decisions being made and that

causes resistance to pop up, right?

370

00:19:22,635 --> 00:19:26,955

Either people stay quiet or if, if you

think back at that moment, and it's always

371

00:19:26,955 --> 00:19:31,695

very hard to reflect on this because

you basically usually don't see it.

372

00:19:32,325 --> 00:19:36,825

If you didn't see it, then it's very hard

to reflect on it what happened, right?

373

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But can you still think to a moment

back then where you think, oh.

374

00:19:42,405 --> 00:19:46,305

Now I understand why this

behavior keep popping up, right?

375

00:19:46,415 --> 00:19:47,555

did something notice you?

376

00:19:47,555 --> 00:19:52,445

Like, ah, if I just dived into

this patterns that I'm seeing,

377

00:19:53,135 --> 00:19:54,185

do you think that would help?

378

00:19:54,185 --> 00:19:57,575

I'm very curious if you, if, if,

if there was something in your

379

00:19:57,575 --> 00:20:00,875

mind like, yeah, now I understand.

380

00:20:02,232 --> 00:20:07,452

Xin Yao: I think the, if you ask

me what did I notice and didn't

381

00:20:07,452 --> 00:20:13,662

act on during the session, I think

what I noticed that is that my own

382

00:20:13,722 --> 00:20:20,232

anxiety, so it's neurologically my own

anxiety of not producing the outcome.

383

00:20:20,592 --> 00:20:25,142

I think the team deserved A part

of my identity as well, because I'm

384

00:20:25,142 --> 00:20:29,342

there to enable, what am I to enable

if there's no not an outcome at all.

385

00:20:29,342 --> 00:20:29,552

Right?

386

00:20:29,672 --> 00:20:34,742

So that fear pre that, that

magdala in my brain basically

387

00:20:34,742 --> 00:20:42,707

prevented my, my empathizing,

mechanism to take action on the.

388

00:20:43,462 --> 00:20:47,452

You know, the, the undiscussable, the,

the thing, I have a very, I'm a, I'm

389

00:20:47,452 --> 00:20:52,312

a, I think I'm a, I'm a female and I

have a very high sensitivity toward.

390

00:20:53,122 --> 00:20:54,142

Things not going right.

391

00:20:54,142 --> 00:20:58,552

I knew, I knew there's this thing,

but I didn't touch it because I

392

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knew that I'm also, I have this

masculine part, I'm an architect.

393

00:21:03,652 --> 00:21:06,562

I am supposed to be outcome driven.

394

00:21:06,592 --> 00:21:10,342

I have the responsibility for this

and that, and for, for reaching

395

00:21:10,342 --> 00:21:11,602

the timeline and all that.

396

00:21:11,932 --> 00:21:12,622

So all these,

397

00:21:13,005 --> 00:21:13,125

Kenny Schwegler: A.

398

00:21:13,252 --> 00:21:17,562

Xin Yao: not, there's, there's

never, I think sometimes we tend to.

399

00:21:17,697 --> 00:21:20,457

we have to be careful about

these heuristic and patterns.

400

00:21:20,457 --> 00:21:25,407

Sometimes the moment we lock our mind

into one pattern or one heuristic to

401

00:21:25,407 --> 00:21:29,247

say, this is what's going wrong and

this is what's going right, we are

402

00:21:29,247 --> 00:21:32,302

excluding all the other things, and

all of us, all the four of us are.

403

00:21:33,157 --> 00:21:35,407

All think we are system thinkers, right?

404

00:21:36,217 --> 00:21:37,117

is a system?

405

00:21:37,207 --> 00:21:41,197

It means more than one factor

is at play, even contradicting

406

00:21:41,197 --> 00:21:43,147

things at the same time.

407

00:21:43,477 --> 00:21:48,547

And so I think it's really important that

we don't let our own models trap us and

408

00:21:48,547 --> 00:21:50,797

prisoners and keep us in the safety trap.

409

00:21:51,067 --> 00:21:52,267

Kenny Schwegler: One thing I noticed.

410

00:21:52,267 --> 00:21:56,437

So this is the biggest paradox for

architects starting to facilitate.

411

00:21:56,947 --> 00:22:00,277

You say, I'm outcome driven,

so you're tied to the outcome.

412

00:22:00,667 --> 00:22:06,367

While you said, I'm very empathic, the

group wanting something else while you

413

00:22:06,367 --> 00:22:10,927

want to go to the outcome, that can be

a paradox that I think every architect.

414

00:22:11,842 --> 00:22:14,152

Starts to facilitate,

gonna deal with that.

415

00:22:14,902 --> 00:22:16,282

And that's a hard choice.

416

00:22:16,342 --> 00:22:17,452

There's no right answer here.

417

00:22:17,452 --> 00:22:20,602

There's, but, but I think

that's very important for, for

418

00:22:20,602 --> 00:22:21,922

other architects to understand.

419

00:22:21,922 --> 00:22:24,952

It says the moment you're gonna do

this there, you're gonna deal with this

420

00:22:24,952 --> 00:22:29,872

paradox of, Hey, I have this outcome and

responsibility sake, but I notice that

421

00:22:29,872 --> 00:22:31,672

the group needs something different.

422

00:22:32,212 --> 00:22:33,382

How are we gonna deal with that?

423

00:22:33,652 --> 00:22:37,507

I mean, so I, I just wanted to

say that before we go to Andrea.

424

00:22:38,959 --> 00:22:42,379

Xin Yao: I just want to comment,

uh, on, briefly on that.

425

00:22:42,469 --> 00:22:46,959

Uh, I think it's, with the dominance of

AI and with, with all these things, I

426

00:22:46,959 --> 00:22:52,499

think the enabling architecture piece,

if somebody has the passion and the

427

00:22:52,799 --> 00:22:55,109

sense of mission to enable others.

428

00:22:55,504 --> 00:22:58,414

We have to go there, we

have to go and explore.

429

00:22:58,414 --> 00:22:59,554

What is enabling.

430

00:22:59,854 --> 00:23:05,214

Enabling is not to, you know, over

transfer skills, from me to you,

431

00:23:05,214 --> 00:23:08,904

to anybody who doesn't know can

do that much better than we do.

432

00:23:09,174 --> 00:23:12,744

What we enable is a capacity

to navigate complexity.

433

00:23:12,744 --> 00:23:14,394

Otherwise Why, why us?

434

00:23:14,399 --> 00:23:16,704

they can go somewhere else,

tutorials and whatever, right?

435

00:23:16,854 --> 00:23:18,564

So that's just a short comment,

436

00:23:20,863 --> 00:23:24,313

Andrea Magnorsky: I think that that's

a, that's a, very good comment.

437

00:23:24,533 --> 00:23:28,133

and also wanted to ask you, when you're

talking about these two examples,

438

00:23:28,193 --> 00:23:33,713

it seems to me that, you're asking,

what could I have done different?

439

00:23:34,583 --> 00:23:36,443

I wanna ask you a different

question, which is.

440

00:23:37,493 --> 00:23:42,323

if the outcome, what happens would've

happened no matter what you do, because

441

00:23:42,323 --> 00:23:43,733

that's what the room needed to do.

442

00:23:44,513 --> 00:23:50,393

Like, w what, like i, I, I think that

when you're facilitating something, there

443

00:23:50,393 --> 00:23:52,583

are times when no matter what you do.

444

00:23:53,363 --> 00:23:57,743

You can't give, let's say for example,

people, the capability to speak

445

00:23:57,773 --> 00:24:01,433

about things, they don't feel safe

speaking because you're one person.

446

00:24:01,643 --> 00:24:08,203

so what if the problem wasn't you and how

you facilitate it, but something else?

447

00:24:08,203 --> 00:24:09,703

And in that case, what is the problem?

448

00:24:10,593 --> 00:24:12,303

let's put a different

model in the question.

449

00:24:12,434 --> 00:24:12,794

Xin Yao: Oh, wow.

450

00:24:12,794 --> 00:24:15,404

That's, that's a, that's

such a good question, Andrea.

451

00:24:15,404 --> 00:24:16,214

Thank you for that.

452

00:24:17,144 --> 00:24:20,054

First of all, um, so I.

453

00:24:21,209 --> 00:24:21,809

Question.

454

00:24:21,809 --> 00:24:27,059

So that question was my initial,

uh, uh, my initial mind patterns.

455

00:24:27,119 --> 00:24:29,519

Oh, what could I have done

differently these days?

456

00:24:29,519 --> 00:24:31,259

I don't think like that anymore.

457

00:24:32,399 --> 00:24:36,959

regret anything that happened

because it didn't happen.

458

00:24:36,989 --> 00:24:40,469

I wouldn't have learned, and

a lot of people have taken

459

00:24:40,469 --> 00:24:41,609

a lot of learning points.

460

00:24:41,639 --> 00:24:43,469

I don't know other

people's learning journey.

461

00:24:44,464 --> 00:24:46,024

So that's the first part.

462

00:24:46,214 --> 00:24:52,154

sometimes, you know, even, um, um,

I, I'm working with my because right

463

00:24:52,154 --> 00:24:55,034

now, you know, if you are leading

ar lead architect, you are always

464

00:24:55,034 --> 00:24:56,774

in this role enabling architect.

465

00:24:57,104 --> 00:24:58,814

You have this in you.

466

00:24:58,814 --> 00:25:01,064

I'm, I'm special, I'm, I'm whatever.

467

00:25:02,084 --> 00:25:07,834

and then that ness will somehow, It,

it's a very destructive capacity.

468

00:25:07,834 --> 00:25:08,914

in some context.

469

00:25:09,604 --> 00:25:14,614

second part about, the question is that,

what if whatever you would, you, you,

470

00:25:14,674 --> 00:25:17,644

you did, it would still have happened.

471

00:25:18,004 --> 00:25:18,784

Yeah, it could.

472

00:25:18,874 --> 00:25:21,904

I mean, it's a complex world, but I think.

473

00:25:22,939 --> 00:25:28,489

This is a question to all of us as

conveners of gatherings, as groups.

474

00:25:28,849 --> 00:25:31,609

How do we, I think we have responsibility.

475

00:25:31,609 --> 00:25:38,419

There is always something more we can

explore to how to, to me, a group.

476

00:25:39,019 --> 00:25:44,749

group, a group with creative co-creative

dynamics is not a collection of people

477

00:25:44,749 --> 00:25:46,789

individually contributing knowledge.

478

00:25:47,584 --> 00:25:54,154

How do we tap into that potential is

the responsibility of the convener.

479

00:25:54,874 --> 00:25:57,304

It is regarding if

you're architect or not.

480

00:25:57,574 --> 00:26:00,874

I think there's always something

that I could have done to make

481

00:26:00,874 --> 00:26:03,644

that convening role more effective.

482

00:26:04,424 --> 00:26:06,494

my mental model right now,

there's three circles.

483

00:26:06,494 --> 00:26:08,384

I have collaboration in the middle.

484

00:26:08,594 --> 00:26:12,014

So if I want to make a group

collaboration work the best way

485

00:26:12,014 --> 00:26:14,644

possible, I need three other Cs.

486

00:26:15,334 --> 00:26:18,574

Connection, contribution and conversation.

487

00:26:19,394 --> 00:26:22,964

if there's no connection, if there's

no trust built from the very beginning,

488

00:26:22,994 --> 00:26:25,094

anything you say or do, doesn't matter.

489

00:26:25,244 --> 00:26:26,624

Doesn't matter at all.

490

00:26:26,834 --> 00:26:30,104

The connection is not only between

the people, but also between the

491

00:26:30,104 --> 00:26:34,034

people to the purpose of that

gathering and the connection from

492

00:26:34,034 --> 00:26:36,224

the person to him or herself.

493

00:26:37,464 --> 00:26:42,024

what can we do so that people can just

share a little bit more of their truth?

494

00:26:42,384 --> 00:26:42,744

Right.

495

00:26:43,194 --> 00:26:46,464

Uh, without feeling that

it's, it's damaging for them.

496

00:26:46,584 --> 00:26:48,474

There's always something more we can do.

497

00:26:48,504 --> 00:26:49,554

That's the connection bit.

498

00:26:49,794 --> 00:26:51,474

The contribution is what's missing.

499

00:26:51,474 --> 00:26:55,034

Because if people don't contribute,

they will give you lip service.

500

00:26:55,034 --> 00:26:56,504

Like in my first example.

501

00:26:57,104 --> 00:26:59,474

And resistance is another piece.

502

00:26:59,534 --> 00:27:01,424

What's the best way to

deal with resistance?

503

00:27:01,424 --> 00:27:04,154

My humble opinion right

now is that contribution.

504

00:27:04,964 --> 00:27:07,664

If you feel that there's

a person resisting.

505

00:27:07,874 --> 00:27:08,954

I think Peter Block once said.

506

00:27:09,734 --> 00:27:14,414

therapy, the moment you know you have a

breakthrough is when the patient says no.

507

00:27:15,124 --> 00:27:18,664

if you can't say no, your yes

has no meaning, basically.

508

00:27:18,734 --> 00:27:20,704

and, that's the power of contribution.

509

00:27:20,984 --> 00:27:22,814

how do you do this Through conversations?

510

00:27:22,814 --> 00:27:25,994

I think we have to be able to

model the conversation seriously

511

00:27:26,864 --> 00:27:28,334

to make collaboration work.

512

00:27:28,334 --> 00:27:29,264

So just briefly.

513

00:27:30,777 --> 00:27:33,647

Kenny Schwegler: There's this Dutch

anthropologist, he says, resistance

514

00:27:33,647 --> 00:27:35,837

is a very interesting metaphor.

515

00:27:35,927 --> 00:27:37,097

It came from Freud.

516

00:27:37,697 --> 00:27:38,747

Well, of course it comes from.

517

00:27:39,747 --> 00:27:40,317

Electronics.

518

00:27:40,317 --> 00:27:48,117

But Freud said, my patients, these are

patients who have psychotherapy, right?

519

00:27:48,127 --> 00:27:52,727

there are usually people in therapy,

they're resisting my therapy.

520

00:27:53,387 --> 00:27:58,787

That's where resistance came from and now

we're gonna use it as a word to describe

521

00:27:58,787 --> 00:28:01,007

someone who doesn't agree with us.

522

00:28:01,097 --> 00:28:02,897

And, we need to reframe that.

523

00:28:02,897 --> 00:28:06,857

Resistance is not resistance,

it's just someone else's opinion.

524

00:28:08,649 --> 00:28:11,769

Xin Yao: Yeah, it's, it's, it's

actually a creative energy.

525

00:28:11,769 --> 00:28:13,239

You know, it's, I just

526

00:28:13,522 --> 00:28:13,812

Kenny Schwegler: Yeah.

527

00:28:14,159 --> 00:28:18,299

Xin Yao: I don't know who said it, someone

said, behind every complaint there is

528

00:28:18,299 --> 00:28:21,899

a yearning, that I would rather have.

529

00:28:22,529 --> 00:28:27,269

Complaint and loud spoken

resistance than lip service, right?

530

00:28:27,269 --> 00:28:29,459

I would rather have the second

workshop than the first.

531

00:28:29,729 --> 00:28:33,149

The collaborative modeling did

give me something after 37 years.

532

00:28:33,269 --> 00:28:34,649

It wasn't the last game.

533

00:28:34,949 --> 00:28:39,359

It triggered a lot of the things

that didn't happen in the first one.

534

00:28:39,659 --> 00:28:40,109

So it's,

535

00:28:40,387 --> 00:28:40,657

Kenny Schwegler: Yeah.

536

00:28:41,249 --> 00:28:44,469

Xin Yao: The, the question is

how do we tap into that energy?

537

00:28:44,469 --> 00:28:48,279

I think the first thing for us

as facilitators or conveners is.

538

00:28:48,844 --> 00:28:53,314

not to in how to invite people

and not to in a persuading role.

539

00:28:53,394 --> 00:28:56,124

the enabling word is

very dangerous in a way.

540

00:28:56,124 --> 00:29:00,564

Because if I'm enabling DDD,

right, I'm telling people I know.

541

00:29:01,494 --> 00:29:04,494

Maybe I don't know what the destination

is, but I know how you get there.

542

00:29:04,764 --> 00:29:07,344

This is the way I'm enabling you to do.

543

00:29:07,524 --> 00:29:07,914

Right?

544

00:29:08,274 --> 00:29:11,094

and if you challenge

that, it's my identity.

545

00:29:11,159 --> 00:29:11,999

you are challenging.

546

00:29:11,999 --> 00:29:13,649

So how do we relax?

547

00:29:13,679 --> 00:29:17,709

How, how do we be able to, you

know, how, how can we say, okay, I

548

00:29:17,709 --> 00:29:19,329

don't care if it, is not the thing.

549

00:29:20,109 --> 00:29:22,779

We don't do DDD, even

if I'm a DDD evangelist.

550

00:29:22,989 --> 00:29:27,029

In fact, I want to say that the second

part that the trailer of that story

551

00:29:27,029 --> 00:29:31,759

I didn't finish telling is that, I

continued DDD work with that team.

552

00:29:31,849 --> 00:29:35,959

But in the two weeks that followed,

we dropped all methodologies.

553

00:29:36,009 --> 00:29:37,539

we whiteboarded everything.

554

00:29:37,539 --> 00:29:39,279

We freestyled everything.

555

00:29:39,549 --> 00:29:44,319

And that worked wonder because that

brought me from the pedestal to

556

00:29:44,469 --> 00:29:46,809

the same floor level as the team.

557

00:29:47,104 --> 00:29:51,094

Let's not say, let's not use D,

d, D as intimidating, whatever.

558

00:29:52,282 --> 00:29:53,962

Andrew Harmel-Law: That's, I think

the biggest problem of DDD, right?

559

00:29:53,962 --> 00:29:57,952

Like it's, it feels like this gigantic

thing with all of these words and phrases

560

00:29:57,952 --> 00:29:59,602

and history and things you need to know.

561

00:29:59,662 --> 00:30:03,802

And to be honest, there's a tiny bit

at the center, which is important.

562

00:30:03,802 --> 00:30:06,442

And like you said, that's

the thing that goes into

563

00:30:06,549 --> 00:30:06,839

Xin Yao: Yeah.

564

00:30:07,042 --> 00:30:09,112

Andrew Harmel-Law: else is just

fancy extra stuff on top of it.

565

00:30:09,112 --> 00:30:13,672

But people get very, people

get very kind of, um.

566

00:30:14,827 --> 00:30:17,347

by it or something, or push

back and resist against it or.

567

00:30:19,202 --> 00:30:19,652

Andrea Magnorsky: one thing.

568

00:30:19,832 --> 00:30:24,422

You, you said that, uh, in your, in

your opinion, the best way to deal

569

00:30:24,422 --> 00:30:26,132

with resistance is contribution.

570

00:30:26,192 --> 00:30:27,482

And I think.

571

00:30:27,887 --> 00:30:31,547

That is extremely important

and also my experience of it.

572

00:30:31,937 --> 00:30:38,057

so one thing that I find useful

for enabling contribution,

573

00:30:38,447 --> 00:30:39,407

especially of the people.

574

00:30:39,407 --> 00:30:45,527

'cause some people can be against you,

but also extremely white because that's

575

00:30:45,527 --> 00:30:47,057

just not their style or whatever.

576

00:30:47,057 --> 00:30:51,407

So it's always about trying

to find the ways to get people

577

00:30:51,407 --> 00:30:53,237

showing some of the work.

578

00:30:53,287 --> 00:30:54,577

aside, I generally don't.

579

00:30:55,057 --> 00:30:59,202

When you somewhere new, I tend

to not talk about any of the tech

580

00:30:59,202 --> 00:31:00,462

on, unless you're doing training.

581

00:31:00,512 --> 00:31:03,092

and to say we're doing this, what is it?

582

00:31:03,142 --> 00:31:06,082

you know, it's this sticky notes with

events, you know, just put another

583

00:31:06,082 --> 00:31:08,002

one, you know, it's like an event.

584

00:31:08,182 --> 00:31:08,752

And that's it.

585

00:31:08,752 --> 00:31:09,292

That's the end.

586

00:31:09,301 --> 00:31:10,831

Andrew Harmel-Law: I've done

some gorilla event storming,

587

00:31:10,831 --> 00:31:12,061

did we just do event storming?

588

00:31:12,061 --> 00:31:13,261

We did do eventing.

589

00:31:13,261 --> 00:31:13,621

Andrea Magnorsky: Yeah,

590

00:31:13,765 --> 00:31:14,365

Andrew Harmel-Law: the whole thing.

591

00:31:14,431 --> 00:31:17,951

Andrea Magnorsky: but I think we

all know that here, but one of, one

592

00:31:17,951 --> 00:31:22,301

of the things is finding the way to

get the contributions and To kind

593

00:31:22,301 --> 00:31:26,641

of fill the room and meet the people

in the room wherever they're at.

594

00:31:26,761 --> 00:31:32,451

And if that means that you need to,

go and do live, you know, like we

595

00:31:32,451 --> 00:31:34,851

have whiteboards, boxes, and arrows.

596

00:31:35,481 --> 00:31:35,871

Cool.

597

00:31:35,901 --> 00:31:36,321

That's it.

598

00:31:36,381 --> 00:31:37,161

That's where you're at.

599

00:31:37,221 --> 00:31:38,211

and that's what works.

600

00:31:38,211 --> 00:31:39,841

But, sometimes it can be something else.

601

00:31:39,841 --> 00:31:43,021

So, think it's not said enough, that.

602

00:31:44,416 --> 00:31:49,426

Resistance can be done with contribution,

and contribution can have a lot of shapes

603

00:31:49,546 --> 00:31:50,776

Xin Yao: Yeah, totally.

604

00:31:50,776 --> 00:31:51,256

Totally.

605

00:31:51,361 --> 00:31:51,441

Hmm.

606

00:31:52,839 --> 00:31:55,239

Kenny Schwegler: What I try to

do, learning from these Dutch

607

00:31:55,239 --> 00:31:58,619

anthropologists, Daniella, they

wrote a book, corporate Tribe.

608

00:31:58,619 --> 00:31:59,669

It's an interesting book.

609

00:31:59,849 --> 00:32:02,509

It's an anthropology, and it

goes also into deep democracy.

610

00:32:02,509 --> 00:32:05,749

and what they say is in

their check-in, they try to

611

00:32:05,749 --> 00:32:08,429

challenge, the initial purpose.

612

00:32:08,459 --> 00:32:10,149

I have the mantra of Dr.

613

00:32:10,149 --> 00:32:10,524

House.

614

00:32:10,524 --> 00:32:11,394

Everyone lies.

615

00:32:11,424 --> 00:32:15,024

So when a manager or someone else comes

to me and says, this, this is what

616

00:32:15,024 --> 00:32:16,284

the team really needs, I said, sure.

617

00:32:17,109 --> 00:32:20,619

And the first thing I do in a

session is actually challenge that

618

00:32:20,859 --> 00:32:22,239

who agrees and who doesn't agree.

619

00:32:22,239 --> 00:32:24,279

So that's what you're

saying, I think zin, right?

620

00:32:24,279 --> 00:32:25,959

Inviting the contribution.

621

00:32:26,529 --> 00:32:29,539

The first thing I would do is,

even if it's a training, I say,

622

00:32:29,539 --> 00:32:30,799

who wants to be at this training?

623

00:32:30,799 --> 00:32:32,569

And who doesn't want

to be at this training?

624

00:32:32,629 --> 00:32:33,769

And people are like, why?

625

00:32:33,799 --> 00:32:34,009

Why?

626

00:32:34,009 --> 00:32:35,359

You're asking that second question.

627

00:32:35,359 --> 00:32:36,049

I say, well.

628

00:32:36,919 --> 00:32:39,949

I might not want to be there because

I have a sick cat at home, right?

629

00:32:39,949 --> 00:32:40,759

That's important.

630

00:32:40,759 --> 00:32:42,349

Maybe because I don't know.

631

00:32:42,349 --> 00:32:46,129

But then the train says, but what if

these people don't want to be here?

632

00:32:46,159 --> 00:32:47,629

I say, we have a good conversation.

633

00:32:47,629 --> 00:32:53,539

And afterwards that why you're inviting

people to a collaborative session or a

634

00:32:53,539 --> 00:32:55,759

training and they don't want to learn.

635

00:32:55,849 --> 00:32:56,659

I think you should.

636

00:32:57,184 --> 00:32:59,914

First deal with that fact before

inviting me to give this training.

637

00:33:00,454 --> 00:33:04,844

So, yeah, that's what I had the

same thing happening to me, zin.

638

00:33:04,844 --> 00:33:08,474

And then what you're saying is

I started digging deeper and

639

00:33:08,474 --> 00:33:09,494

that's the first thing I learned.

640

00:33:09,494 --> 00:33:10,544

Ah, yeah, sure.

641

00:33:10,544 --> 00:33:11,054

Of course.

642

00:33:11,054 --> 00:33:16,094

I need to challenge the proposition of the

session before we actually do the session.

643

00:33:16,124 --> 00:33:17,674

that was a learning, key,

644

00:33:17,856 --> 00:33:17,936

Xin Yao: Hmm.

645

00:33:18,064 --> 00:33:18,844

Kenny Schwegler: key insight for me.

646

00:33:19,571 --> 00:33:24,326

Xin Yao: I think even, I have seen you

do it in your session, Kenny as well.

647

00:33:24,326 --> 00:33:27,796

So, you made it feel

very safe to speak up.

648

00:33:28,166 --> 00:33:30,986

and not in a lot of the settings.

649

00:33:30,986 --> 00:33:35,276

People will not feel safe if,

there are 20 people with different

650

00:33:35,276 --> 00:33:36,871

ranking and, whatever you say.

651

00:33:37,566 --> 00:33:38,346

won't feel safe.

652

00:33:38,346 --> 00:33:43,656

one way I've learned to do is to break

people into small groups, to do something

653

00:33:43,656 --> 00:33:45,186

called connection before content.

654

00:33:46,206 --> 00:33:50,196

Because in if If there is three,

uh, uh, people in a group, it's

655

00:33:50,196 --> 00:33:52,896

way safer for people to speak up.

656

00:33:52,966 --> 00:33:57,496

so that's, uh, that, that's, in a

sense when you ask people to share,

657

00:33:57,766 --> 00:34:00,736

then it's also a little bit more

courage because they've already.

658

00:34:00,961 --> 00:34:05,181

Talked about it once in a small group,

and then that's what creates connection.

659

00:34:05,181 --> 00:34:09,190

Because when one person says, you know,

I have this hesitation and, whatever.

660

00:34:09,190 --> 00:34:11,380

Indeed, like, oh wow, he spoke up.

661

00:34:11,411 --> 00:34:12,190

I can too.

662

00:34:12,621 --> 00:34:15,821

instead of, Andrea, you stood in

front of the room, you're the person

663

00:34:15,821 --> 00:34:20,141

in front and you're asking who has

questions on who, who has concerns.

664

00:34:21,851 --> 00:34:22,031

Yeah.

665

00:34:22,811 --> 00:34:23,650

I don't want to say it.

666

00:34:23,710 --> 00:34:24,460

I don't wanna say it.

667

00:34:25,929 --> 00:34:26,489

Kenny Schwegler: Concerns.

668

00:34:26,784 --> 00:34:27,924

I don't have concerns.

669

00:34:27,954 --> 00:34:28,734

Whatcha talking about?

670

00:34:28,734 --> 00:34:29,514

I'm an architect.

671

00:34:30,234 --> 00:34:30,984

I don't have concerns.

672

00:34:31,255 --> 00:34:31,646

Xin Yao: Yeah.

673

00:34:31,735 --> 00:34:36,146

And I think one thing for me, maybe it's

easier for me to do as a female is to

674

00:34:36,206 --> 00:34:38,696

invite the emotional language in the game.

675

00:34:39,956 --> 00:34:44,456

said it too about a DRI think once

you know a talk about emotions,

676

00:34:44,795 --> 00:34:45,966

there was one psychologist.

677

00:34:47,126 --> 00:34:47,576

something.

678

00:34:47,576 --> 00:34:51,266

He, he basically discovered that if

you take away the emotional center of

679

00:34:51,266 --> 00:34:53,906

the brain, people can't make decisions.

680

00:34:54,186 --> 00:34:57,326

they can still do chess, but they

can't decide what to have for

681

00:34:57,326 --> 00:34:59,546

lunch, what to put on to go to work.

682

00:34:59,971 --> 00:35:04,111

And so that, that emotion, so

when people are having these

683

00:35:04,111 --> 00:35:05,371

things, what are you feeling?

684

00:35:05,371 --> 00:35:09,031

What's what, what, me one word

to tell how you're feeling

685

00:35:09,031 --> 00:35:10,171

about this workshop right now.

686

00:35:10,201 --> 00:35:12,211

Let's, let's take a,

let's take a break, right?

687

00:35:12,259 --> 00:35:12,529

Andrew Harmel-Law: had that

688

00:35:12,631 --> 00:35:13,641

Xin Yao: And, yeah.

689

00:35:13,749 --> 00:35:14,799

Andrew Harmel-Law: lots in my book about

690

00:35:14,836 --> 00:35:14,956

Xin Yao: I.

691

00:35:15,279 --> 00:35:17,229

Andrew Harmel-Law: of it because

people think like sation, right?

692

00:35:17,229 --> 00:35:20,529

We think it's a very masculine,

factual, intellectual activity.

693

00:35:20,559 --> 00:35:24,009

And fundamentally it's like guessing and

we're taking a jump and we're doing what

694

00:35:24,009 --> 00:35:25,929

we think hope, what we hope is gonna work.

695

00:35:26,619 --> 00:35:27,489

people don't do that,

696

00:35:27,581 --> 00:35:28,031

Xin Yao: Yeah.

697

00:35:28,061 --> 00:35:28,331

Yeah.

698

00:35:28,331 --> 00:35:31,901

So we are, we're, until, uh, I

can't remember his last name.

699

00:35:31,901 --> 00:35:35,771

He said that we are not machines having.

700

00:35:36,776 --> 00:35:41,276

We are not, uh, thinking machines that

feel, we are feeling machines that think

701

00:35:43,016 --> 00:35:44,996

it's very interesting to see it that way.

702

00:35:45,819 --> 00:35:46,059

Andrew Harmel-Law: that's a

703

00:35:46,321 --> 00:35:46,601

Xin Yao: yeah.

704

00:35:46,899 --> 00:35:49,239

Andrew Harmel-Law: a great this episode

705

00:35:49,319 --> 00:35:49,729

Kenny Schwegler: Yeah.

706

00:35:49,809 --> 00:35:50,559

Andrew Harmel-Law: Kenny and Andrea.

707

00:35:50,559 --> 00:35:50,769

Right.

708

00:35:50,829 --> 00:35:51,789

That's fantastic.

709

00:35:52,059 --> 00:35:53,469

Thanks Shin for everything.

710

00:35:53,499 --> 00:35:55,499

That was super interesting and, thanks

711

00:35:55,725 --> 00:35:55,815

Andrea Magnorsky: you.

712

00:35:55,906 --> 00:35:56,146

Xin Yao: Thank

713

00:35:56,146 --> 00:35:56,886

Andrew Harmel-Law: thanks, Kenny and.

714

00:35:56,946 --> 00:35:58,286

Andrea, and hopefully

715

00:35:58,369 --> 00:35:58,449

Xin Yao: you.

716

00:35:58,766 --> 00:36:01,966

Andrew Harmel-Law: enjoys the listening to

all of the information and knowledge and

717

00:36:01,966 --> 00:36:04,456

experience and wisdom that Shin shared.

718

00:36:04,846 --> 00:36:05,656

Thank you everybody.

719

00:36:05,896 --> 00:36:06,256

See you

720

00:36:06,454 --> 00:36:07,504

Xin Yao: Thank you for having me.