You know when something isn’t working and you kind of just start trying things until it makes sense? Like you don’t really have a plan, you’re just adjusting as you go and hoping it comes together?

Most people do that and don’t think much of it. They definitely don’t call it creativity. That word feels like it belongs to artists or people making things for a living, not just… figuring life out.

That’s something Darnell Brown has noticed over years of working in design, branding, and entrepreneurship, people constantly using creativity in practical ways without ever naming it as that. And once you start paying attention to it, it changes how you think about what creativity actually is.

In this episode, the conversation digs into why we don’t recognise our own creativity, and what changes when you start seeing everyday problem-solving as a real skill instead of something “basic.” Let's dive in!

IN THIS EPISODE

• Welcome Darnell! His story and how he came to do this work.
• What creativity really is - and how you're using it every day without realising it
• What actually happens when something you enjoy suddenly starts getting attention, money, or praise attached to it
• The uncomfortable truth about how early feedback decides what people believe they’re “good at” for life
• The surprising reason some of the most creative work in the world comes from combining things that already exist
• The hidden gap between having ideas and actually being able to build something that lasts
• Why so many people with strong creative instincts still struggle when structure and systems enter the picture
• How praise and criticism shape identity over time
• Why staying in beginner mode can sometimes outperform experience when it comes to growth
• The subtle danger of believing you already understand something fully
• Why early progress is usually invisible and only makes sense in hindsight
• How small opportunities that seem insignificant can become turning points later on
• Why people often confuse “no results yet” with “nothing is happening”
• The role curiosity plays in how people deal with uncertainty and unfamiliar situations
• Darnell's number 1 way to start unleashing your freedom today

RESOURCES

• Check out Forge: https://darnellbrown.com
• Follow Darnell on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/darnellbrown/
• DM us TRAINING on Instagram to join the leadership training and transform your life in 90 days: https://www.instagram.com/freedomwithgiorgiaandawn

Hi, welcome to another episode.

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Today, we have Darnell Brown with us.

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Darnell is an award-winning seasoned

creative polymath and beatboxer with deep

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experience and proficiency in digital

branding, marketing, and storytelling.

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As a designer and strategist, Darnell

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The brands he has worked with include

J&J, Band-Aid, Passport Parking, Typeform,

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Circle, Leadpages, and Teachable.

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These days, Darnell empowers creative

entrepreneurs to grow their ingenuity

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and income without sacrificing their

wellness and worth by cross-pollinating

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as co-equal experts and taking action

on ideas within his ecosystem, Forge.

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Welcome, Darnell.

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How are you doing today?

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Darnell: Yeah.

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doing lovely on this wonderful day,

and, happy to be here with y'all.

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Appreciate in advance y'all's

presence, and time, and bandwidth,

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and for making this happen.

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I never take people's time , for granted.

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, So thank you for inviting me.

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Absolutely.

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Ready to dive in.

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Dawn: We're excited to have you,

and we're also ready to dive in.

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So one thing that we ask all of our guests

is, what got you into what you're doing?

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you have this amazing list of

brands that you have worked with.

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Tell us.

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And please go into Forge as well, 'cause

I'm really interested about that too.

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Darnell: Yeah, yeah.

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So, appreciate your interest.

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So long story short, , I have,

I've always been an artist.

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I believe in what Picasso said in terms

of every child is an artist, the problem

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is how to remain one as an adult.

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I'm paraphrasing, I think

that that's so true.

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I think that all of us, including us

three here on this, in this Zoom room

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together, we, whether or not we remember

it, we were playing with blocks and just,

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trying to figure out the world around us.

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Is this edible?

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what does this smell like?

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And testing out the senses and

just, this whole world that

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existed before you got here.

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And so as a child, and I think that We

get less experimental as time goes on.

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We, understand the

rules a little bit more.

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we have impressions on what our

parents knew, and nature versus

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nurture, all of this whole conundrum.

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at our purest state, I think

that we are all artists.

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So my thing, Dawn and Giorgia, is that for

me, in some way I was wired differently

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in that all of the times that I wasn't

lifted up, or I was called, lame or

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corny or something for, being nerdy or

drawing, I don't remember any of that.

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I turned the volume

down, like, crazy down.

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Wow.

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All of the support I received,

the volume was just, way up.

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All of the praise and support.

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So ever since I…

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Before I could even remember, I have

memories of my parents showing me drawings

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that I did that I don't remember drawing.

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I remember reviewing what I did.

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those are some of the earliest memories.

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You got some people that don't

remember learning how to swim, or don't

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remember getting their ears pierced.

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mine's was don't remember drawing.

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So that's how long I've been doing it.

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And my whole life, even into adulthood

and creative entrepreneurship, is just,

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following that same thread of, if you

can imagine it and just practice at it,

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you're not even doing it to draw a crowd.

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But any time that you do, you end

up drawing a crowd too, because

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drawing is mesmerizing to people.

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So I was doing that in the back of

the classroom, just heroes and stuff.

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again, try to be to myself.

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The next thing you know, I'm in

grade school and my classmates were

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like, "Here," Here's my lunch money.

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Can you draw me a picture?

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Here's, $2."

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That was my first, rush with commerce.

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And oh, I'm producing things of

value, and what is this thing

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called money, and all of this.

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And again, just continuing

to have that through line.

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I've been wired differently my entire

life, just dancing to my own beat.

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Like, never, never was

into following trends.

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Always into what I call chasing

the void, of, going in the

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territories that were less trekked.

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and carving out your own path.

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And okay, well why is

this area barricaded even?

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Or, man, there are no

footprints over here.

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this is pretty cool.

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being attracted to things like that.

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And so just allegorically, I've

always been that, that person that

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is just like, man, okay, if I could

draw it and I was drawing crowds…

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yeah, yeah.

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That's a, that's a nice

little pun on that.

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Drawing pictures which end up drawing

crowds, and then recognizing that this

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has value at such a younger and early age.

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What that does to your confidence

and your ability to be like,

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man, I imagined this at first.

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I was just doodling.

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I was just freestyling, even.

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and not everybody in the

class was, like that.

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and, So that was like the seed of it all.

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My art teachers, continuing to

draw, just honing the craft.

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And then visual arts, I was…

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I remember, when the college people,

the college counselors, came into

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the high schools and was like,

trying to sell their colleges onto

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the students to apply for them.

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I remember being- learning about

the world of graphic design,

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and I was like, "Oh, wow, yeah.

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just in case visual arts doesn't

work out, I need a different trade,

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or if this is gonna be the future."

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And this was like in 2002, so

yeah, about 24 years ago or so.

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Went to school for graphic design, ended

up getting an associate's in it as well.

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And, yeah, that was my last

brush with traditional education.

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and so ever since then, what I tell

people all the time, resourcefulness

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over, resources, of just remixing

the things that are around you, the

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connections that you have, and what

you already know in a new way is

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the epitome of what creativity is.

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you can take visuals out of it,

you can take drawing out of it.

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It's just remixing ingredients.

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you're a DJ at a booth

or a chef in a kitchen.

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These are what exists.

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Camera's on me now.

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let me go and make some magic.

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and so that's what I'm about as a whole.

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just switching gears to answer your

question, Dawn, about Forge, yeah.

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Forge feels like the precipice that I am

at at this point in my career of having

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been in creative entrepreneurship for

18 years, and working with all types of

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clients, B2B, B2C, all different shapes

and sizes, all different industries.

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And on a one-to-one basis, like me

personally being the one to do things

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and taking the drawing onto Illustrator

and drawing things with lines and

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it's an entire different skill set.

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And me saying, "You know what?

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It's time to, I feel like I'm

not the only one like this, that

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leans a bit neurospicy, that has

creative inclinations, and you

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want to make a career out of it.

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But the entrepreneurship

side it eludes you.

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It's not something that is

innate like creativity is.

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It's not something that you just are born

with or have a natural talent towards.

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This is a whole world

that you gotta learn.

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The capitalism side of it, the side

of, 'Okay, I need to make a thing, and

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I need to attract people to it, and

I need to, sell it, and this is how

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I'm gonna be able to do more of what I

love doing,' and those sorts of things.

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So it's just like, let's align our, align

and integrate our creative identities into

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our entrepreneurial kind of inclinations.

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And make these two things work and

be a whole identity, all of you,

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rather than just these two halves

that are constantly fighting.

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of like, "Oh, you, you starving artist."

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we hear these phrases and things all

the time, or you sell out if you end

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up going too entrepreneurial with it.

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I'm just, like, both things can exist,

and if you can create, if you can

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draw something that didn't exist,

or you can build something with

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your hands, like, entrepreneurship,

yes, it's a different skill set,

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but this is completely learnable.

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it's attainable to us all,

so, let's band together.

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Let's shift this paradigm.

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Let's be able to attain and sustain

the fulfillment that we seek, meaning

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we- we're having fun what we do.

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There's joy.

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There's playfulness.

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There, there's the wealth side.

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There's impact.

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all of these things are working in

tandem, and I think that's, that's

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when you're at your most fulfilled, at

your best life from a creative context.

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Giorgia: Well, there's so much

to unpack that my head is buzzing

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with questions and where to go.

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One thing that stuck into my mind, at the

beginning, you said that you toned down

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the critics, and you amped up the praise,

and even when people have myths like,

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starving artist, you just don't believe

that, and just let's make it happen.

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And this is such a rare skill 'cause

the human brain is skewed to focus

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on the negative and not the positive.

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So I'm curious to know, is this, is

it a natural ability that you had,

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or it's something you cultivated?

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Darnell: Yeah, that's a great question.

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I feel like in my case,

it was a natural thing.

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It was not a skill that I remembered

learning, and maybe it's also the

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kind of the law of, Well, no, it's not

even true because as we see even in

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adulthood, you could get, 300 great

reviews, but, the one, that one that tears

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you down, you're all focused on that.

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So, it wasn't even that for me.

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I definitely feel like I received

more praise than, than criticism.

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That's for sure.

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in terms of the ratio.

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I just, I think to your question,

Giorgia, it's just one of those

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things that have been innate to me.

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I think, it's probably just virtue of,

again, maybe, maybe it's my generation.

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I'm a millennial, so born in '84.

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Maybe it was just that generation of the

kid drawing at the back of the classroom.

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you're exuding a talent that 90% of

the students in that class don't have.

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So, automatically, you're cool.

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You're unique.

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Everybody wants you to draw

something 'cause you're one of

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two kids out of a classroom of 30

that can do something like that.

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So you're already just valued because

you're more rare than what already exists.

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You know, drawing is a mesmerizing act.

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That's what I love about it as well, too.

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I, even see myself doing it when

you see people, drawing on the

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streets, or even, the caricature

artist at, a carnival or something.

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it's just a mesmerizing thing to see

this blank canvas, and then it becomes

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this thing, the transformation of that.

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And so when you're doing

that, yeah, you're just…

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you're a cool kid at that point.

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so yeah.

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I think that that still happens in

adulthood, but we have to find the

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analogy to, somehow make that work.

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it's just like, yo.

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Yeah, for me, it's just what

I've naturally gravitated towards,

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I think because I've had more

of that than anything else.

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And I recognize that even if you,

even if a person is hating on that,

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it's never gonna be another artist.

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There's never another artist that's

sitting across from you like,

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"Man, your drawing sucks and stuff.

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I'm better than you."

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It's always the person that

can't do it anyway that's just

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like, "Oh, that isn't good.

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that's garbage.

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check out my sneakers instead."

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trying to take the attention off.

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So anyway, I hope that

answers your question.

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Dawn: I think that is so powerful

how you didn't cultivate it.

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You focused on it, that is

how you created your reality.

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And also the example that we can have

300 positive reviews and one negative,

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and we hyper-focus on that one.

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And as a person who is more analytical,

I typically have the tendency in

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general just to focus on negative

anyway, and where things get to improve.

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Mm.

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And it isn't to say-

Mm … you're not good enough.

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It's I see you in your highest,

and this is your highest, and

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how do you get there, right?

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And so the thing is, is that I do also

hyper-focus on if somebody tells me

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I did something wrong, and I think

that the way that you went about that,

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as Giorgia said, is a rare quality

because we are geared towards that.

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And even Jordan Peterson shared in one of

his podcasts about how couples, if you are

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having a conversation with your partner

and you say something that is not nice

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or tears them down or is a negative-type

thing, you've gotta say five or six

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positive things just to negate that one.

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Mm.

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Mm.

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So imagine that.

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Mm.

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And that's a minimum that you have to say.

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If you go too much, it

has an opposite effect.

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So there's always that balance of too

much of a good thing is not a good thing.

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It's the same thing when you're

speaking praise in reference at

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least to a relationship, and that

was the research that he did.

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And, so I think it's just a

beautiful quality that you have

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that you're able to do that.

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And one thing that you continue to go back

to was your creativity and how you were

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drawing in school, and how you were an

entrepreneur in, in elementary school.

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And, one thing that you shared

with us that you wanna discuss was

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creativity is accessible to all of

us, just as accessible as air is.

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Can you go more into detail

about what you mean by this?

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Darnell: Yeah.

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I mean it in the sense of my goal as an

artist, and I know, I know that that's

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like calling yourself brilliant or a

genius or something, like not everybody's

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cool with a person calling themselves an

artist, so I just wanna acknowledge that.

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so That said, I'm an artist, right?

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so coming from me, I'm not trying

to hoard and say that this is only

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accessible to just a few of us, or that

you're just born with these gifts or not.

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I think part of that, yeah, I think

the nature versus nurture argument is a

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valid one, and I don't think there are

any clear-cut answers, including when

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it comes to creativity and artistry.

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As I mentioned earlier, I feel like

all three of us, as kids, were probably

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pretty experimental, whether or not

we remember it or not, or what we were

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told to do, and started conforming

and here's are the rules of life.

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So at your purest state, this is

already a thing within you, the

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gift to experiment and see what

works for you, even if you forgot it,

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even if it's dormant in the inside.

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that's just something that's a light

within you, whether it's dim or not.

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that is the doctrine that

I subscribe to, right?

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So if I can do amazing things by drawing

and graphic design and branding, and now

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storytelling and copywriting, I feel

like those are things I got better at

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by continuing to hone the craft, right?

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It wasn't just me having a

natural propensity to drawing.

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It was, Dawn and Giorgia, okay, me

listening to what my art teacher said and

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them teaching me the proper ways to draw.

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it's a combination of both things.

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They're trying to help

you hone your skills.

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They may have never saw someone that

looked like me that just gravitated

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towards cartoon characters even.

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And so the adults that were around me,

"Okay, yeah, here's how you do this."

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okay.

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keep taking art classes.

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Practice makes perfect.

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Things that, that sit with you and

that you, if you wanna continue to

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get better at something, especially

as a child, that's one through line

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that you can always follow, and we see

that with prodigies even, people that

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continue on with something in adulthood.

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And then as far as accessibility to

all, what I mean by that is, Trying to

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demystify what we traditionally think

of as associating with creativity,

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which is, oh, something that you're

born with, something that you're born

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without, like your ability to draw, your

ability to make colors and things work.

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I'm saying take all of that away, and

just being able to look at what you

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already know, who you have access to,

and the skills or the passions that you

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have, and thinking, "What can I remix?

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How can I use these things in

different ways than I have before?"

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And when you are aware of that,

and you are at least experimenting,

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like you were doing as a child

anyway, that's being creative.

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that is making something that

wouldn't have existed had these,

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three separate ingredients, what I

know, my skills and passions, and,

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who I know, in this unique way.

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That's creativity.

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And again, that's accessible

to us all because we all have

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something that, we gravitate to.

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We all have connections in our

lives, and we all, we already know

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something, whether it's about anything.

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And I'm just saying, okay,

it's like puzzle pieces even.

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just jigsaw puzzles,

just making things work.

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See what fits, see what doesn't,

see what's right for you.

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That's what I mean about that

being accessible to everyone.

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And as we can see, when we break it down

in that way, y'all, this is something

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that we can at least play with, to be

like, "Oh, okay," building blocks even.

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These are three building blocks

that I can make into a triangular

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shape, a circular shape even.

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I can put them in three dimensions.

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I can stack them.

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I can put them on a surface.

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So many different ways to

play around with stuff.

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it is tapping into our innate creativity

that is usually the childlike wonder about

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us in adulthood, and making it into a new

thing, like remixing ingredients even.

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So that's what I mean by

that, if that makes sense.

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Dawn: absolutely.

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I feel like one of the things that I'm

getting out of what you're saying is

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throw away the stories that you were told.

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"You're not good at this.

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You're not good at that."

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And if it's something that you really

enjoy, take Kobe Bryant as example.

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Mm-hmm.

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When he tried out for the

basketball team, and they said,

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"No, you're not good enough," and

he went home crying to his dad.

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his dad was like, "Well,

what do you want?"

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He goes, "I wanna play basketball."

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He goes, "Well then,

what are you gonna do?"

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Right.

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And he cultivated it to be the

best player in the league, right?

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Right.

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And he didn't listen to the

coach who said, "You suck."

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Right.

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He went back and said, "I

am going to be the best."

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And one of the legacies that Kobe Bryant

left behind was that- He is known as

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the person who was first on the court

and the last to leave and the first to

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support somebody who needed support to get

better at their jump shot, to get better

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at their free throw, whatever it was.

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He said, "We are a team

and we win together.

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If one of us loses, we all lose.

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If we all win, we all win."

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Right?

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And so- Right … I think that one of

the key points that I take away from

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what you've just said is letting go

of all of those stories that we were

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told that we couldn't do something

or we weren't good enough to do it.

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Darnell: 1000%.

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And to that end, Dawn, well let's

use an example of someone at the polar

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opposites, side of the spectrum than

a Kobe Bryant just as an example.

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Because then they'll say that,

"Okay, Kobe was naturally talented.

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You know, that's basketball.

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He's tall.

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you gotta have certain qualifications."

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and then we see examples of

people that were born short,

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but still became NBA stars.

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Let's go to the other

side of the spectrum even.

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Literally when you, think of a DJ, man,

a DJ, he doesn't play any instruments.

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He or she, they don't

play any instruments, they

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don't rap, they don't sing.

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they don't produce music at all.

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So all of the things that are associated

with talent, all of those other areas

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of music, the DJ doesn't do any of that.

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they are, literally

taking different records.

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Oh, I'm gonna take, Janet Jackson's

vocals from this and, put it on a

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Timbaland beat or something like that.

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and it may be in real time, and it may

be just you feeling the vibe in the

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moment 'cause now we see DJs that can

sell out concerts and, they don't do

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any speaking or anything on the mic.

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It is just them and a big light

show behind them, and them

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going with the records even.

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So this is, a talent of literally

remixing things that already existed from

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other examples of very talented people.

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And all they're doing is, fading out

this music and bringing in, this next

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music, and you have a lively crowd that

is responding that something in their

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body and soul is getting them to jam

out and rock out and move their body,

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and it's a very energetic, experience

for people, and the DJ can do that.

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that DJ needs those ingredients to work

with for them to be able to do what

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they do, 'cause they can't sing, rap,

produce, or, any of that stuff, because

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if they could, then that's probably the

career path that they would've been on.

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So a DJ is like, "Yeah, I'ma, I'ma

make these things work for me."

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or, the mom, single parent, five

ingredients in the refrigerator, wants

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to impress or, be there for the mom

next door that's going through a tough

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time, and she may be working out her

own things and may not be able to pay

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the bills, but she somehow made the

equivalent of a five-star meal with

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what existed in her refrigerator.

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Mm-hmm … she's going through

a tough time herself, but not as

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much as the person next door that

just went through surgery even.

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And because she wants to impress her,

she made a better meal than she normally

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would, for her kids or whatever on

a Tuesday night, just as an example.

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She's being creative in that moment.

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Even if she doesn't call it that, from

where I sit, that's hyper creative.

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That's, very resourceful, that's

using things in a unique way, and you

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don't have to be a chef to do that.

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You don't have to be a

culinary artist even.

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That's just something in you that's

being like, "I'm driven by something

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stronger than my excuses at, this moment."

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Yeah.

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"And I don't know if I'm gonna be

a whiz about it, but I really wanna

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help this person feel something."

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And that's, I think, the through line

between those two stories that I shared.

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Both parties wanna make their audience

member feel something, and when

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you have an inclination to do that,

you can be mighty creative, man.

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Giorgia: I love that, that you are

finding different examples and the

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creativity really can be applied to any

area of your life and work that you're

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doing, and one of those areas, it's

also a business, because I know you

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started a business from scratch with, $0.

404

And to get that off the ground, I'm sure

you had to really use your creative skills

405

and find ways to make it work when the

money just wasn't there at the beginning.

406

So can you share with us what are some

creative ways that you apply creativity

407

to your business and get success?

408

Darnell: Yeah.

409

see, that was at an interesting juncture

410

I didn't realize that we were in the

recession bubble that was going on.

411

And so I remember having ascended

to the highest possible place that I

412

could at my first and only job out of

college, and me sending out my resume.

413

No one was getting back at me, no

one would hire me, and I woke up

414

one day and I was just like, "Man, I

guess I'm gonna just hire myself," I

415

just had an epiphany, and I said, I

had an epiphany and I was like, "I'm

416

gonna give in my two-week notice."

417

I had no lines of credit, I had no

savings, no one that I could borrow

418

money from, and I, then I did something

really stupid and doubled down because

419

I ended up buying a house and a car

at the same time with, no way…

420

I backed myself into a corner because

of, young, foolish pride at that point

421

of I made it to this point, and I've

had all of these examples in my life

422

where I made something out of nothing.

423

This is gonna be like

the same thing, for sure.

424

and then again, you're combining that

with ah, well, I moved out on my own

425

now and I can't go backwards now.

426

I'm way too proud to move back in with

my parents, so what is there to do?

427

be stupid and double down on everything.

428

get into debt.

429

Get into debt.

430

get the house, get into more debt, right?

431

So now you're going, further in the

opposite direction, and then at a

432

certain point, y'all, it's just like,

well, now your back is against the wall.

433

The deck is entirely against you.

434

And, the comfort of, remaining at that

job and waiting on someone to hire

435

me, which could have been months, had

to be worse than the newness or the

436

inexperience of, backing myself into a

corner and betting on myself, basically.

437

So it was a combination of two

things which only could have happened

438

when I was in my 20s, which is, and

every financial advisor told me,

439

and I should have listened to them.

440

They're like, "Man, you need like six

months' worth of runway, don't do this,"

441

and stuff, and I didn't listen, man.

442

I didn't listen.

443

And it didn't work out in the beginning.

444

It absolutely didn't.

445

I remember printing off a bunch of

business cards saying, "Hey, I'm this

446

graphic designer," and going around

to the business parks in the area

447

and, , handing out business cards and

flyers that had my name on them, and I

448

would love to say that somebody, gave

me a chance, but, no one called me back.

449

Must have gave out, 100 business

cards or something, and just

450

went, door to, door to door.

451

business door to business door.

452

No one called me back, and then it

wasn't until, I had set up a profile

453

on oDesk, which is now called Upwork,

but it was called oDesk at the time.

454

and I set up my profile and someone

had hired me for, a vector-based job.

455

They wanted me to take an image that was

pixelated and make a vector version of it.

456

And it was like a $25 project.

457

so it wasn't a logo, it wasn't a

website, it wasn't like something grand.

458

It was a very simple project, and that

was the first time I was hired, and

459

then everything else grew from there.

460

the lesson that I learned, it was

just- … I definitely should have

461

listened to the people around me

and, not gotten into more debt.

462

I can't say that I wouldn't have

bet on myself, I probably would

463

have stayed at that apartment and

stayed in the vehicle that we had

464

at that point versus doubling down.

465

that's one thing I would have did.

466

And then the second thing I would have

done, for sure at that time, was I,

467

probably would have done spec work because

I couldn't even take my portfolio with me.

468

So again, this is me in

the graphic design days.

469

You can't take your portfolio with you

because, like, the company that you

470

work for owns all of that, so you don't

really have anything to impress people

471

with, and this was way back in the

days before you could, build websites

472

pretty quickly and everything like that.

473

So that's what I would do

differently, is do spec work then.

474

look at sites that you

think you can do better.

475

contact those owners and say, "Hey,

I put this together for you," or,

476

"Here's a sample of what I can do.

477

If you want me to build out the

rest, let's talk," or something even.

478

hindsight is always 20/20.

479

At the time, though, I was like,

"Man, the smartest thing I could do

480

is, get this house and this car."

481

It was a brilliant idea at the time.

482

It's only in hindsight that this

is like, that's stupid as hell.

483

it's so bad.

484

It's so bad.

485

It's the exact opposite of

what a person should do.

486

But if a person is motivated by being

in pain or forcing yourself to be

487

creative, literally backing yourself

into a corner, that's one way to do it.

488

That's a choice.

489

It's certainly a choice.

490

Dawn: Absolutely.

491

I think that it's a great example

that you give our listeners.

492

Just because you make what you might

think is a stupid mistake when you're

493

young could be one of the things that

opens up some of the biggest doors or

494

creations or possibilities in your life.

495

And so that brings me to challenging

the things that we're taught,

496

challenging the notions that

we think as a means of growing.

497

How would you, utilize that to

support our listeners, in reference

498

to growing instead of shrinking?

499

Darnell: Yeah, that's a great question,

and I would say challenging your notions,

500

it is about approaching everything with

a beginner's mindset, of recognizing

501

that there is always a different way to

learn something that you even already

502

know, or think you know, or that

probably got demystified just because

503

more evidence and more facts have come

out since you've learned the thing.

504

So it's about not having a rigid mindset.

505

A rigid mindset means that you

know what you know, and you're

506

not gonna change that about you.

507

You believe in what you believe

in, and there's no room, there's

508

no wiggle room whatsoever.

509

Well, it's impossible to grow

' cause your cup is already full.

510

there's nothing to be poured into

it, it's just gonna spill over.

511

and I worry about people who do have very

rigid thinking, because you're stunting

512

your own growth by doing that, especially

in the evidence of objective facts even.

513

So,if we're being rigid in our beliefs

just from our subjective point of

514

views, even when now it's an objective

fact because scientists have poked a

515

bunch of holes in it, and it's been

tested a bunch of different times.

516

And you still gonna say, "Nope,

what I've always known to be

517

true is just the way it is"?

518

and so, Dawn and Giorgia, that's one

of those things that I feel like,

519

has been also a constant in my life.

520

I didn't grow up in the church, so

I'm agnostic in my beliefs anyway,

521

and I do question everything.

522

And my whole thing, it is, I mean,

I remember being in grade school and

523

being just like, yo, I got Baptists

coming to me, Catholics, Christians.

524

They're all saying their

thing is the thing.

525

I said, "If I was…"

526

This is me in grade school,

grade school version of me.

527

"If I was ever interested in becoming

religious even," I said, "why wouldn't

528

I look at all of the holy books?

529

Why wouldn't I look at the entire buffet?

530

why would you dedicate yourself

to just what you know?"

531

And even if you grow up in a

certain belief system, your parents

532

are operating on what they knew.

533

I think that's extremely dangerous

to not look at the things that exist.

534

us humans can't even agree

on how we all got here.

535

So we're flawed.

536

That's religion.

537

If you take that into, entrepreneurship

or business, and you remain agnostic

538

to be like, "Man, I know, I know some

things, but what I don't know, is way

539

bigger than the things that I do."

540

I know a lot about a few things,

but the circumference of what you

541

don't know is infinitely bigger,

and it's continuing to expand.

542

When you respect and realize that,

y'all, you approach everything

543

with a beginner's mindset.

544

You approach every conversation,

including this here interview, like

545

Dawn and Giorgia could say something

that challenges my notions, everything

546

I thought to be true, that's okay.

547

Don't run from that.

548

Lean into it.

549

Usually if I'm offended, this

probably says something about me.

550

We haven't peeled back those

onion layers enough to say, "Well,

551

what did she say that, completely

shattered everything that I knew?"

552

lean into that.

553

why do we shy away from that?

554

Dawn: Yeah, hundred percent

555

Darnell: I feel like we would, like

we all benefit from becoming more

556

empathetic, and you only do that

if you're curious about people.

557

You can't teach curiosity.

558

What you can teach is, to say, well,

you gotta put yourselves in environments

559

where curiosity can naturally happen,

and usually that's by changing your

560

environment, something as simple as that.

561

You don't gotta go somewhere exotic.

562

It could be like I did going to

the public library and catching

563

the city bus to go there.

564

So not even, having

money, not having excuses.

565

That's way on the other side of town.

566

I'm gonna take this dollar and go

ride the city bus even though I'm

567

in a magnet school already, so

I'm getting crazy education there.

568

No, I'm gonna go to the

public library, read books.

569

Take, the Mavis Beacon program,

learn how to type so that I have

570

other trades in my back pocket.

571

Again, this may have been an innate

thing with me, 'cause that's not

572

what the cool kids were doing,

that's how I always grew, y'all.

573

That's how I always was just

like, "No, there's this world

574

of things that I don't know."

575

There's people who passed away tens,

hundreds of years ago, stoicism even,

576

of things that are, highly relevant

now, and it's just like these person

577

they've passed away, but these things are

still true, and you see examples of it.

578

And you find the evidence.

579

And it, and again, it's just a very

flourishing, fulfilling life when you get

580

to time travel and space travel through

the stories of people who live now,

581

people who lived, and just, and boost

your experiences and not physically have

582

to go anywhere, and that's just a vibrant

life to live, and I wanna live that way.

583

And so it's just like, oh, man,

I don't know anything today,

584

like even about graphic design.

585

I could retake graphic design

for sure, and I still only use

586

10% of Illustrator and Photoshop,

and there's like 100% of it.

587

And it's just ah, that's kinda

the allegory for, the brain thing.

588

We only use 10% of it.

589

I'm like, Illustrator just as

a whole is an amazing tool.

590

There's so much that I don't use it for.

591

It's just like, ah, man, come on, man.

592

So again, even especially about the

things that you think you know, there's

593

always something, a new way in, man.

594

Michael Jackson was at the

peak of his career still

595

watching videos of James Brown.

596

Surpassed him even.

597

Still watching videos like a kid.

598

He's like, "Man, you never stop

learning from the masters."

599

And it's just like that, that just goes

to show you, man, when you can see the

600

greatest of all time in their various

fields still be looking at the people

601

that came before them, that's, I mean,

that's how you never stop growing.

602

That's how you continue to wow people.

603

That's how you continue to

fascinate them, how you continue

604

to surprise them and delight them.

605

So yeah, as you can see,

man, I get giddy about this.

606

Dawn: For sure.

607

I love how you said think

of something as a beginner.

608

When I did my master's, one of

the classes that we took, they

609

said everyone is a beginner.

610

At something at some point in your life.

611

And so if we look at this new thing

that we're doing as not that I am

612

stupid or that I don't know it, I don't

know it because I've never done it.

613

I don't know it because I

don't have the experience.

614

And the other thing, when you were talking

about, , the objective and subjective

615

part, for example, with science, and

science poking holes in all of it, and

616

like, "No, the science is settled."

617

Well, think about this.

618

How many I'll say centuries

have we been studying the body?

619

Yet only in the last, I think it's

15 years, did we find actually a

620

fifth muscle in the quadriceps.

621

So in reality it is not the

quadricep, it is the quinticep.

622

You know?

623

Hmm.

624

think about that.

625

Like how-

626

Dawn and Darnell: Yeah

627

Dawn: first of all, I'm

a, I'm a science nerd.

628

I- Okay … so I'm a medical massage

therapist and a functional nutritionist

629

on top of the emotional intelligence

and the podcasting with Giorgia.

630

Wow.

631

And so when somebody brings

something with, with science,

632

I'm like, "Pfft, I'm in it."

633

And, and I love to learn from the

people who know way more than I do.

634

and so there are certain people that I

constantly follow, and some of them are

635

my professors or were my professors.

636

Hmm.

637

And I do continuing education

courses with them, and that was

638

when I was like, "Wait, what, Brian?

639

We have a quinticep?"

640

Like, holy moly.

641

And then I started, looking it

up because I couldn't believe it.

642

We've studied the body that long?

643

So when people are like, "The science

is settled" about anything that

644

has to do with the body or anything

that goes into the body, whether

645

it's medication, whether it's food,

whether it's chemicals or whatever,

646

there is no science that's settled.

647

None.

648

Darnell: That's a really good point.

649

That's true.

650

That's true.

651

and I think to all of the new planets that

they're finding and stuff like that and

652

new galaxies, like I thought we had nine.

653

knowing that when I was in

grade school it was only nine.

654

Exactly.

655

And

656

Dawn and Darnell: then they took

Pluto away for a little while.

657

Now, now there's at

658

Darnell: least 10.

659

So that just goes to show you

that - like you said, even

660

objective facts are still evolving.

661

there's, I don't even know.

662

I bet math might be the closest

thing that we get to something that

663

is, always the same no matter what.

664

Like the number nine is infinitely

fascinating, and how multiples of,

665

one and eight, one plus eight equals

nine, and how the numbers reverse

666

after 45 and nine is so fascinating.

667

But anyway, math being, I guess, like

the universal language, and music too

668

perhaps, two languages that, that

have been around for a while, I think.

669

I mean, even those might still

be evolving, but at least we only

670

got 10 digits for numbers and

that there isn't randomly, a number

671

after nine besides one and zero.

672

anyway, don't let…

673

Y'all don't have me…

674

I'm gonna start geeking out on y'all.

675

Like, look- Hmm, we're

gonna have to wrap it up.

676

Y'all might be playing the violin soon.

677

Y'all gonna play the violin on me.

678

Y'all, man, look at it.

679

Look at this.

680

Dawn: I'm sure we would love to keep this

going, I just know that we all have hard

681

stops today, which is an unfortunate thing

'cause this has been a great conversation.

682

Darnell: Yeah, yeah.

683

Same, same.

684

, please, we still, got a,

couple more minutes to see if

685

we can uncover any more gems.

686

I'm

687

Giorgia: sure.

688

Well, before we go into that,

so how can people contact you?

689

'Cause I'm sure our listeners are like,

"Yes, I wanna get in touch with Darnell."

690

Yeah.

691

Darnell: Yeah, yeah.

692

I appreciate that.

693

So yeah, you can go to darnellbrown.com.

694

Um, I don't know if they're, if you'll

be listing this in the show notes for

695

this episode, but that's, just, my name

right here on the screen that you can see.

696

So darnellbrown.com.

697

that's my main website, but I warn

it's pretty spicy in the sense

698

that it's just, a landing page and

there's, no way to, to hire me or

699

get in touch with me or anything.

700

that was intentional,

that was intentional.

701

it wasn't for lack of effort.

702

I was like, "I wanna be, like, extremely

cohesive, and maybe even a bit ambiguous."

703

So that's the reason for that.

704

don't be surprised when you go there.

705

And then for Forge, that's

at darnellbrown.com/forge,

706

where you can learn more

about our ecosystem community.

707

I don't get much spam, and if I

do, I know how to block people.

708

So, like, don't spam me, y'all.

709

All right.

710

You can reach me as well if

you're interested in working

711

together or collaborating to any

degree, at [email protected].

712

So those are the three ways

that people can get in touch.

713

Giorgia: Great.

714

We put everything in the show notes, and I

would encourage everyone to get in touch.

715

And the last question that we ask all our

guests, what is one way that our listeners

716

can start unleashing their freedom today?

717

Darnell: Ooh.

718

One way that your listeners can

start unleashing their freedom today.

719

I'm gonna say, along with one of the

themes of this episode, is to- Is to find

720

something that you're hyper curious about,

and to start to satiate that curiosity.

721

Don't let it sit there, don't think that

you're asking a dumb question because

722

you don't know a thing about a thing.

723

if you start off your question with,

"I'm curious why blah, blah, blah,"

724

that's a way to even get out of your

shell a little bit, even about a thing

725

that you're shy, that you don't know,

that everyone else seemingly does.

726

Start with, "Hey, I'm curious

about blah, blah, blah.

727

Can you expand on that?"

728

Just as an example.

729

and again, since curiosity is one of

those things that you can't naturally

730

imbue someone with, the way to spark

that, I feel like, is to change up your

731

environment, your immediate surroundings.

732

If you can't think of anything in this

world that you're curious about learning

733

more of or contributing to in some

way, if you get out of your immediate

734

environment, whether it's a park, whether

it's a museum or something, I bet you

735

something in you will grow out of that.

736

So we can only create the scenarios

that allow for things like curiosity

737

and grit and, determination, these

types of traits to run rampant, and

738

that's one of the ways to do that.

739

And it doesn't cost you much to do so.

740

Unleashing your freedom is certainly

about satiating a curiosity, I would say.

741

I think that as we live and as we…

742

What gets us out of bed each

day, it's a curiosity that we

743

have and it's saying that, "Okay,

there's a problem that exists.

744

I'm a problem solver and there

are a gazillion ways that I could

745

attempt to solve that problem.

746

What's this way that I'm

gonna bring that today?"

747

And curiosity starts by questioning

more than it does responses.

748

it's recognizing that you don't know

everything and being cool with that.

749

You're imperfect.

750

We all are.

751

We're flawed.

752

We're just saying, "Man, you know what?

753

I'm curious if things could be different.

754

I'm curious if the paradigm could be

shifted, but I'm gonna lean into that

755

curiosity and I'm gonna pull that thread.

756

I'm gonna follow that breadcrumb

trail and see where it leads, and

757

w- what way that I can make an

impact on solving that problem."

758

Even entertainment is a form

of, problem solving to people.

759

People go to the movies for escapism,

to empathize with characters that

760

they may never meet, to learn

more about the human condition.

761

So entertainment is also valuable.

762

, And that's also a thing that I wanted to

leave y'all with in terms of unleashing

763

your freedom, that, don't look down

on entertainment or people laughing

764

or feeling something at a thing, we

don't know what they're going through.

765

And when we can make people feel

something, even if it's something small,

766

I think that was one person, I think

that was Maya Angelou who said that.

767

people don't always remember what

you do or what you say, everyone

768

remembers how you makes them feel.

769

And so, unleashing your freedom

is about that as well too, man.

770

how can we reach out and touch

someone on the other side that

771

we may never meet through our

work, through our body of work?

772

rather than it being about us, it's

about- the lives that we can imprint

773

upon even in some small way, and even

if that person never lets us know that

774

we did, we have to be cool with that.

775

So there's a humility there in

being like, "I did my part today.

776

I look in the mirror

at the end of the day.

777

Man, I gave it my all.

778

I didn't screw anybody over, I didn't

back stab, I didn't lie to get ahead.

779

I can go to bed straight

'cause I can sleep.

780

I can sleep knowing that

these things didn't happen."

781

And sometimes that's all we can ask, so

hopefully that gave you a well-rounded

782

answer to unleashing your freedom.

783

Oh,

784

Giorgia: a few answers that we've had.

785

Yes.

786

Thank

787

Dawn: you.

788

Yes, thank you so much.

789

Thank you.

790

Thank you for today, Darnell.

791

We really appreciate you

coming on our podcast.

792

And would you like to

beatbox us out of here today?

793

Darnell: Oh, yeah, the beatbox.

794

I almost forgot.

795

So let's see.

796

I can just make up a beat , off the top

of my head, or I can,, use a popular song.

797

Um, let me see.

798

, Okay.

799

I'll go the route of just,

building a beat in real time.

800

Okay.

801

Okay.

802

All right, so I'll start with a

803

Speaker 5: mm, mm, mm,

mm, mm, mm, mm, mm, mm,

804

mm,

805

mm, mm, mm, mm, mm, mm, mm,

mm, mm, mm, mm, mm, mm, mm,

806

mm, mm, mm, mm, mm, mm, mm, mm.

807

Darnell: I just came up

with something random.

808

it's not my best work, but I had to

freestyle it in real time in front of

809

people , and create it off the spot.

810

But usually try to have some

hi-hats in there, and some

811

snares, and some bass drum.

812

But I think the best one, , to flow

to,, when you're rapping is, like…

813

Look at y'all nodding y'all head with it.

814

Yeah, let me let me find

out I still got some rhythm.

815

, Even in my 40s, I still

got a little bit of rhythm.

816

I still got it in me,

so that's a good thing.

817

I hope the listeners are not like,

"Man, how could they let him do this?

818

, This is terrible."

819

Giorgia: No.

820

Oh, that was amazing.

821

Thank you so much.

822

Thank you so much for today, Darnell.

823

Darnell: All right.

824

Thank y'all as well, thank

y'all for listening , , and

825

watching , if this is shown.

826

, So thank y'all , for tuning in,

and , thank you to Dawn , and

827

Giorgia for allowing me to

be a part of the show today.

828

Dawn: Absolutely.

829

It was our pleasure.