Explore the secrets of success and opportunities in internal audit in the sixth episode of Inside the Auditorium with our guest, Scott Strachan, Head of Audit at Legal & General Investment Management (LGIM), as he discusses the role of internal audit in the investment management industry.  

This episode explores: 

• The soft skills edge: Scott emphasises the importance of soft skills in internal audit and the need for curiosity and commercial awareness as he shares the challenges of drawing out that curiosity and gravitas in an interview setting. 
• A breadth of exposure: For recent graduates considering their career paths, don't underestimate the potential of internal audit for building a promising career. Discover how internal audit is the place where you not only gain unparalleled technical development but also cultivate soft skills that set you apart.  
• A passion for internal audit: Scott Shares his passion for internal audit and the diversity the role brings, the opportunities to provide perspective across the global business landscape and having a significant voice at the top table.  

Don’t miss this episode packed with key takeaways that can transform your approach to internal audit, identify risks to anticipate, including climate change, technical disruption and demographic shifts, as well as the importance of diversity and inclusion in the workplace.  

Enjoy! 

Note: The views expressed by Scott are his own and do not necessarily reflect those of his employer. 

Hello Scott, thank you very much for joining me today. As you're working within the investment management industry at the moment for legal in general, as the head of audit, I wonder if you could sort of tell me a little bit about that role in terms of what you're doing and what you're auditing now.

Cool, thanks Hazel and thank you for the invite to be on. So yes, I'm the head of audit for legal and general investment management, looking after the 1.2 trillion asset manager for the LNG group, among other things, but that's my main sort of focus. So what does that involve? So annually designing a plan, a risk-based plan that kind of gives that assurance right up to the group's audit committee.

And obviously as a big asset manager, UK's largest, quite a vast coverage in terms of what we do, not just the investment management, but all the plumbing that goes with that and the operations piece and HR and legal services. And it's got a bit of a global footprint to it as well. So it's not, it's predominantly UK, but we have got setups in Japan, Hong Kong, Singapore.

US and some distribution offices across Europe. So yeah, quite an extensive program of work to be done in the year.

And in terms of, we're going to more of sort of the investment management piece about the risk around that later, but within your career, you've ducked in and out of external audit. So I know that you started at PwC, then you went to Aberdeen, KPMG, legal and then legal in general, you know, coming from an internal and external background, what do you see is the biggest difference?

Yeah, yeah, it's been, I guess I'm getting on a bit. It's been a few years now. So I've been in internal audit since 99, sorry, in financial services internal audit since 99. I actually started out and got my qualification with the Institute of Chartered Accountants of Scotland at which time I actually worked with CoopersLiveBrand. So before PwC, before the merger Pricewaterhouse and CoopersLiveBrand. And yeah, I was very much entrenched in external audit at that point.

And then we opened an office in Inverness and we got access to some internal audit client work with the National Health Service and further education. And again, it was just a nice sort of place to pivot and sort of grow the office and I sort of went in that direction towards internal audit. What's the major difference? I mean, it's changed so much over the years. I mean, it wasn't seen as a strong relative back in the day.

It was very much seen as I remember a partner at the very first firm I joined, a small firm in Inverness that said, oh, don't go to internal audit. It's just there's nothing going on in that space. It's not where it's not the future sort of thing. And here I am several years later and very happy to be in this space. I think it's a great place to be. So the main difference, I guess, is the breadth of focus. I mean, I look at everything within that asset manager and it is everything, you know, from

how we're writing up policies around AI through to how an investment desk transact on behalf of customers. I mean, it's just so broad. Whereas the financial services of the external audit side of things, you know, you are focused on true and fair view in the P&L and balance sheet. It's all more so number-based. You do look into some of the control environment pieces, but not as extensively as an internal audit would. So that's what I'd see as the main difference, I guess.

Okay, and where do you see then the biggest impact in terms of what's happening in the world at the moment in terms of investment management? Where do you think sort of the biggest risks are at the moment?

Yeah, it's a good one. I'm actually penning an introduction for the Scottish Institute of Internal Audit Conference which starts on Wednesday and as part of my introduction I'm kind of trying to reflect on, you know, change and the challenges we face and I want to start by saying challenge has always been there. I've chaired the conference three times way back in time. I was the chair of the conference for the committee.

Change has always been a consistent. It's just where it is now, and if I could find my notes on it. Five mega trends as I see it. Climate, obviously a massive impact on all our businesses. Technical disruption, I mentioned AI earlier, but many other forms of technical disruption. Demographic shift, what does that mean for our customer base?

and the services we provide and again all services, different industries. A fracturing world, you know, we're split across the geography and, you know, many different pressures and influences on that. So it's, I've written it down from notes I have about it being a fracturing world and then social instability and it's, so their change and change has been around forever. I guess what I sort of summarise in my

interdependency and speed of all these that's creating a risk complexity that arguably we've never seen before. So, you know, that sets a massive scene of where we are, all the challenges we face. Then you bring that into the day-to-day, the business as usual operations. How does that affect people? What does it do to the skills of the workforce? And the need to pivot in some areas, just masses of pressures the regulator has to respond to that world we're living in.

lots more regulation in the pipeline. So yeah, it's just never ending. So a massive, massive risk landscape that we have to face into. And as third line, try and find and help the business find a path through that and give assurance around it.

Sure. And so in terms of, you know, investment management and sort of COVID then, what's sort of been the impact of that you think that, you know, has been more risk that you've got to highlight?

Yeah, yeah, it's a good one, COVID. It's not out of our memories yet. And it definitely was a significant impact. In terms of the team, you know, just moving and pivoting away from that sort of four or five days in the office to something a bit more flexible, you know, upsides to that, downsides to it, how do we enact controls that naturally feel more auditable in a work environment, much easier to see.

So we've, as an audit function, done some pieces of work around what has been the impact of COVID in terms of that risk and control environment. So again, it's almost to that point about what's the difference between external audit and internal audit. We're thinking about things like that. We're having to do papers, insight papers to the board on what has been the impact on the business as usual controls, and really insightful work. So it's definitely been impactful.

Mm-hmm.

And again, I'm a glass half full kind of guy. So for me, we're smart. People are smart. We're adaptive. We're innovative. So we've kind of found the right path through it. We've faced into the challenges, and we've come out the other end. And I think we continue to sort of grow and strive. Different organizations, different impacts, right? But again, I think everybody's finding the path that's appropriate to them through it and internal audit are a big part of that journey.

Sure. I'd like to probably hear a little bit more in terms of when people are having to work from home and maybe around confidential data and, you know, could you sort of share a little bit more on how you went around that?

Yeah, I mean, it's more in the domain of my esteemed IT colleagues. But yeah, I mean, these are things that were under the magnifying glass. How do we maintain confidentiality? How do we actually just monitor people working and how they're working, what they're working on, how they're securing data that they'll be tapping into and the work parameters at the home? You know, what's the sort of security around?

Okay.

set up and such like. So again, very much designed from a technical perspective, but checked by internal audit to make sure there's no sort of breaches or breakdowns in that sort of confidentiality and security aspect. And again, most organizations were attuned to the risk and therefore, you know, ready to adapt and develop what they needed to develop to make sure there was no breach of customer information, private data.

security. So yeah, we've done a number of pieces of work, even up to COVID, but after COVID around cyber and that whole security piece and GDPR, obviously the implications of personal data and such like. So yeah, the plans are evolving. I mean, we have to pivot to wherever the risk is, just as the business does, and we have to go with the business sometimes, and we actually have to lead the business sometimes. Sometimes I work.

independent and fresh insight that gives people that steer off where we should be looking. So it's just complex, it's hugely complex and again I think we're skilled up and really commercially aware to make sure we think about all the challenges that are ahead and whatever happens in society.

Sure. And so therefore then with, you know, in terms of what's happening now with interest rates and people's savings and mortgages and things like that, and where do you think sort of the potential risks are going to be for your business next year or for the investment management space?

Yeah, so we're just finishing off prep for the 24 plan and one of the big themes that we've tried to apply into our thinking on risk is that volatility that's coming from that sort of economic landscape. As you say, high interest rates, what does that do to asset management? We've got other parts of the business where that interest rate really impacts you, the end customer and therefore the product we sell into them, we do housing.

So again, affordability is a big thing. And so we've got different pockets of the business that are affected differently by that economic landscape, but massive influence into our risk thinking. We've got to think, what does it do to product, the designer product, the product we deliver to customers. How do we make sure the customer can afford the product and understands the nuances to the product? So again, it's not any.

different to anything pre the economic landscape we're having. You know, we always had to think about the customer, the appropriateness of product, but it's just in a heightened state because it brings so much volatility. And obviously we're managing all kinds of asset classes. Some will benefit from into high interest rates, some not so much. So again, we have to be mindful of that and think about when interest rates are at the sort of high they are.

What does that do to some of our products? And credit risk is a massive example. Market risk, another big example of something we have to be very fluid to in terms of the impact on what we do and how it is received and needed by our customers.

Sure, sure. And in terms of the teams that you've managed in the past on with regards to investment management, they're very sort of funds focused on the business side. Do you feel then the role of the internal auditor is changing? Is it becoming...

because normally the IA teams can be quite smaller in investment management firms, then let's say a big bank, for an example. Do you find then that the skill sets are gonna have to be more siloed into credit or market risk or what have you when you're looking for that next candidate?

Yeah, yes and no. Our model is to have SME in all levels of our organization, internal audit-wise. So we are definitely hiring high and that SME comes across the whole investment sector. So definitely SME is in the investment space, understanding how a desk manages portfolios and client money.

We've got ops experts or people that understand the technical and administration, middle office aspects. So that's again, always been there, but that bar just continues to get higher to be the best internal audit function. You've just got to really set the bar high on that. We mean, we constantly go through recruitment. And I know when I joined LNG, so some seven years ago, I came in with a bit of that attitude of,

You know what, I'm going out to the market. I know often the market doesn't produce the best people directly to me. The best people are often in situ and comfortable where they are. But in that attitude, I kind of thought, right, well, I'll take the best of what I see. And actually what I've learned at LNG is no, if you don't feel you've got the right person, stop, keep trying different avenues, use co-source support until you do get that best person.

And a massive lesson I've learned in the last seven years of, you know, be patient, don't be scared by the fact you're sitting trying to deliver a plan to an audit committee and you've got gaps in your team. There's ways of showing that up. There's ways of flexing the plan slightly, you know, deferring the risk over a quarter into next year is never going to break anybody. So you've got levers to pull to make sure you don't compromise the quality. But the skill set is enhancing, you know. We're in a...

technological disruptive world. We are doing extensive work around data analytics. That's a brand new skill and various levels of it were again fairly strategic in terms of how we're tackling that we have that central data analytics team that can support us. But actually we want all our auditors to have the sort of hypothesis sink in. They're the SME. So they're the ones that can say, I think this is where the risk is. The data guy could then go and get the data set.

pull it together for you, but without the hypothesis thinking, you're not going to be looking in the right spaces. So again, data analytics is a skill set that's, over the last five years, definitely new. Artificial intelligence, we're going to have to think about that. And just that commercial thinking, and almost some of the soft skills as well that I kind of major on, be curious. People that.

want to sit and kind of go through a process and not contribute to it, not good enough. We need to be curious. We need to have that sort of commercial thinking and understanding. You know, I always try and take my team into sessions and just say, right, interest rates have just gone up again. What do we think of that? And just get everybody in the team engaged. So engagement, curiosity, technical skills, yes, fundamental. Hence the SME model, but don't, don't.

take second best, you know, you have got ways of getting levers pulled around co-sourced where you could tap into, you know, big four firms and more and get people that are really specialist in the areas that you might be looking to focus on. So it's always evolving, but, you know, a healthy challenge, I guess, is not prohibitive.

Yes.

So, you know, in terms of when you say you'd rather wait for the right candidate, in today's market then, what do you think is the biggest skill that lacks within an internal auditor when you're interviewing or you're meeting people?

That's a very good question. What's the biggest skill missing? Yeah, I don't think I've ever really struggled getting the technical piece, the SMA piece. There's lots of good auditors out there that really understand the pockets that they've been applied to in their careers thus far. I'm a sucker for the soft skills. I'm a sucker for that be curious, that commercial awareness.

And trying to draw that out in that artificial interview setting can be quite hard. You know, people are nervous and I try and be as relaxed and calming as possible and get people open up to see if I can see that little spark. You may want to call it the X factor. I don't know what it is, but it's definitely soft. It's definitely gravitas. It's definitely curiosity. Do I see that when I interview? I don't see it a lot.

And that does come with experience. I get it. You know, we're hiring all grades. And it's better at the sort of more senior grade than it is at the junior grade. But it's still a tough one to draw out. So I'm all for that. I think that's, if I can put a team together, yes, the technical, I think, is dead easy, as I said at the start. But the people that can really bring that curiosity, that challenge, that gravitas, that credibility, that's something quite different. And that's.

grown over time, that's about a personal professionalism, dignity almost, that you bring to the job. And you've got to love what you do, right? I think it also comes with actually enjoying what you do, not seeing it as a bit of a chore.

And do you think that that's more lost in the younger generation that have grown up more in a tech world?

Yeah, yeah, it's a really good question. We're having a debate just now about we do an annual, no, sorry, a semi-annual voice survey in the business to gauge what people's sentiments are and what they're thinking and do they feel included and can they speak out and all that. And, you know, there's some scores that we just can't, they're not bad scores, but they're just always at the low end of what we'd like to see. And we've kind of debated, we've thrown loads of different

techniques at trying to move the scores up. But actually one of the reflections we just had recently was, we're dealing with a different generation. How I think about teamwork and leadership is very different from what Gen Z thinks of what leadership and teamwork is all about. They're all about the inclusive, they're all about flexibility. And that's all fine, that has a place in modern workforce, but actually it's just.

the techniques you as a sort of seasoned baby boomer or whatever has against the Gen Z. You've just got to be very adaptive to different needs and pivot some of your, what you think of the traditional style. So it's an interesting challenge, is another part of the big complex landscape that we weave.

Sure.

How do you balance that then?

So again it comes back to being strong with your recruitment. You know you've got to stay honest in the market and make sure you think about that. You don't just want the technical skills. That's not what the landscape needs at the moment or going into the future. So persevere, you know keep looking. The people are out there. Make sure you understand your offering to the candidates and what they get from you.

That's hugely important again, setting out that expectation. And it is about as a sort of head of a department, thankfully I'm not sort of managing too many people. We are one of those very lean teams, but you know, absolutely 100% in terms of what our role is and what we deliver in terms of an opinion. But it's about me just managing that, making sure I have a very diverse.

and inclusive environment, a safe environment, and I bring out the best in everybody and ensure I try and get the best across the board. And it is just a balancing act, you're right. There's some people in my team that, you know, we've got development programs and we've got talent assessment programs. And there's some people that just sit in that box that, you know, don't give them people to manage, just give them the technical stuff and they'll knock it out of the park. There's others that absolutely want the people management, have great skills in that space.

So again, I just have to look at my team and make sure there's no exposure in any one of those areas. And there's many of them. That's just two as an example.

Yeah. And do you think though that, you know, as you say, that the learning of the product is very easy? Did you think it's quite easy to teach people how to be curious and speak to senior stakeholders? And because essentially, you know, that is what all it is about now, right?

That's great.

Yeah, great, great question. And the answer is, I don't think it's easy.

Yeah. Okay, great.

Yeah. Okay. And so tell me that just you mentioned earlier on that you do quite a lot with the Chartered Institute of Internal Auditors on the Scottish Committee. Obviously, you're based in London now and you used to be based in Scotland and you actually moved to London quite late in your career, if I can say that. Could you maybe tell us sort of why you moved from...

from Scotland and tell us about the work that you do get involved with the IAA as well please.

Yeah, I mean, it wasn't designed, I guess. I mean, I worked with Aberdeen Asset Management for an awful long time, 16 years. And you know what, that took me into London extensively. I was down in London two, three days a week. Our sort of main fund management office was in London and that was my patch again. So I had to be down in London a lot. Then kind of came to the end with the Aberdeen 16 years and looked around.

at the job that came up was with KPMG. I looked at a couple of things. I looked at something in Switzerland, but KPMG seemed like the right move. That was actually based in Edinburgh, but again, the ask from KPMG was to be for his week in London. That's where the sort of fund management client base was.

So I've never not been in London, but then as part of the KPMG thing, I eventually just made the move and it really solidified with the move to LNG. You know, that's London based predominantly had to be here. So moved down, got the fright of my life when I saw the prices of things, but hey ho, I was quite familiar with it given, as I say, I was in London quite a lot anyway.

And it's good. It's just I think is a good thing for the CV. I think it's got an energy and a population to it that, you know, your eyes are open. There's more forums and such like. But but and I've stayed connected with Institute both in Scotland and London. So back in Scotland, I joined. I came on the committee, the Scottish committee. I was part of organizing the Scottish conference I mentioned earlier. I'm preparing to cheer.

conference this year, this will be my third year chairing it. Love staying connected back to the homeland, it's where the heart is and all that. And I know the population, I know a lot of the people at the conference and there's something nice and comfortable about that. And actually, just I think, given the people I've worked for, you know, I think there's some knowledge and insight and the committee and the speakers were put together, bringing an awful lot of insight to that internal audit population.

both public sector and private sector. So great to be still involved in that. Really honored to be invited back to host the conference again this year. And even down in the London area, going along to the national conference, staying hooked into a number of the people at the Institute and some of the initiatives they're running. Sometimes they come to Legal in General and look for insight or guidance or support. Again, we don't.

always jump on everything, but very happy to be involved in things that, you know, shape the direction of the industry. So yeah, massively important part of being an auditor, I think, you know, there's your central professional body that's issuing technical guidance and kind of debating the challenges for internal audit going forward. And that's hugely important to be part of, and they do a great job, a very challenging job because again, they're trying to tell the internal audit story across all sectors.

and that can be quite challenging, but no, great to be part of it. And as I say, great to be back at the Scottish Conference this week, later this week.

Could you maybe explain some of the initiatives? Because I noticed that there's quite a lot of young graduates and there's quite a lot of apprentice schemes in order, you know, that companies are doing now. And they possibly wouldn't necessarily think about joining the IIA and would maybe go more for an accounting qualification. Maybe you could elaborate in terms of sort of some of the initiatives that they do?

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, good question, Hazel. So I think the challenge has been for the Institute trying to get that awareness up. You know, so as you say, that tendency to fall into the Institute chart, the accountants, you know, it's just a natural route. It's a more well trodden path. But, you know, in the years that I've been involved, the investment and effort that's gone into building that technical training around what is being an internal auditor.

That's significant now and that's out there in the marketplace where we collaborate with all different professional bodies to sort of lean into and support other qualifications and have it more recognized. So as a young person coming in, and I would go right back to the coverage, that fundamental question of external audit versus internal audit, the coverage I have, the exposure I have to the business, one of the anecdotes.

that I always realize is in my last job at Aberdeen, I would often just get called to the CEO's office and he was a very direct man, wonderful chap. And he would look to me for the insight on what's going on in his business, whether it be in Singapore or in the US or in the Germany office, because he knew I covered everything. I had to have a total lens on the business. Now, I didn't always audit every part of the business, but over...

a cycle, I would definitely have that knowledge and, you know, had to be curious back to the point I made. So he would come to me for that insight and, you know, I find that hugely gratifying because it kind of puts you at the top table, your opinions heard, respected, etc. So for all those sort of grads out there thinking, oh, well, I don't know much about internal audit, trust me, it's the one place where you'll get coverage, you'll get technical development in your CV like no other.

And if you can bring those soft skills to the technical skills, we can all learn the technical skills. You know, there's textbooks out there that can chapter and verse give you that. But if you can balance that and specialize in an area that just, you know, you're good at, with the soft skills, the curiosity, the commercial think, internal audit is probably the best landscape because you just get that breadth of exposure. Lots of heads of internal audit go into non-executive roles.

lots of heads of audit go into C-suite roles. It really is an increasingly good landing ground for a really promising future career. So don't bypass the institute. They've got all the training embedded at various levels, lots of training, lots of conferences where they bring people together to give insight and knowledge, lots of stuff going on. So keep open to it.

I have noticed as well that, and I don't know whether you see this to be true or not as well, but over time, I'd probably say the last five, well, over time, within the insurance industry, quite a lot of the C-suite roles are attracting more people from the banking world. Why do you think that is?

So if you take a very high level view, I think banking has been under the regulatory sort of lens for a long time. And that often means you just develop, pivot, grow, change. Develops probably the right word. So banking is a head generally in terms of that regulatory insight and that understanding of processes and the technical advancements that come into business as usual process. So they're kind of leading.

Insurance asset management definitely behind the curve, but you know, are looking to go on the same path. The regulators are getting smarter to those sectors of the industry to skill up and improve processes and risk management. So it feels very natural for the banking people who have been through the loop to come into our world and bring that insight and experience with them. So yeah, I think that's the predominant effect in terms of that move from banking into insurance and asset management.

doesn't always work but definitely on paper has the right makings off growing

Sure, sure.

All right, fantastic. And you mentioned earlier on about diversity, you know, in terms of how are you guys measuring or working towards that at the moment?

So for a long time, the group means a big group and a lot of people very engaged in all aspects of working life. And a lot of that is about the softer stuff, again, the networking side of the business, very diverse population in the company and, you know, very much sponsored into making sure that sort of diversity inclusion is very broadly.

signposted in the business. So we've got all kinds of groups around socioeconomic mobility, neurodiversity, we have something called the Elgin Culture Club which kind of throws events celebrating different cultures. It wasn't so long ago I donned the kilt and recited some of Robbie Burns' poetry to the haggis being piped into the room just to again celebrate cultures, right, and that was one of many that we've done. So lots going on.

Neurodiversity, you know, I've got family members who are diagnosed autistic and ADHD. And, you know, we go through struggles when we don't have those diagnosis and, you know, spreading awareness, speaking to others that are in the same boat as you, hugely important. And I find it usually satisfying, gratifying in terms of the communities that are within LNG to, yeah.

increase awareness, understand etc etc. So I get heavily involved in a few of those forums and make sure I'm on the committees to understand what we're doing. The other one that I love is going into schools you know and I've been on many where you're going to schools and you've got a population of school kids that are sitting there confused about what their future is, confused what they want to do and actually kind of see our industry the financial services above them.

you know, asset managers, I don't even know what an asset manager is, but they get paid a lot and, you know, they go through university and all that sort of stuff. But actually, what we do, and we did it brilliantly recently, we got a cross section of the business, people that have come from very humble beginnings, and I put myself in that, you know, I was a daft laddie from Dundee in Scotland and worked hard and got the right breaks and stuff. And just, we just talked to them, we just told them about our journey, we told them about

financial services and its diversity, you know, it's not just asset managers. We need the coffee shop people, we need people that look after the IT systems, we've got HR people covering all aspects of people. There's so much diversity of offering in terms of roles in the industry. And you know, we have to embrace that and then bring good people and people that, you know, have skills that they just don't know yet and we can obviously harness.

and promote and develop. And that's usually rewarding because if you get one kid coming out of that group and saying, oh, actually, I know a bit more about asset management now or financial services and they start going down the path, we've got work experience programs, graduate programs, and the flow through that, we always take a graduate into our team. Some have stuck, some move on. It's just great to see that youth coming through and getting opportunity and then, why wouldn't we?

Ciao.

Mm-hmm.

want to help that pipeline as it were. Hugely rewarding.

Because when you started your bachelor's degree then in accountancy, was you looking to be an internal auditor or why did you take that degree?

Thanks for watching!

Yeah, so I wasn't looking to be an internal audit. I was probably one of those kids that thought what is internal audit? If I'm brutally honest, I took the degree. I'd always had a sort of leaning to numbers. I enjoyed accountancy at school. I got good grades. My mum was an accountant. So there was a natural draw there. In the summer, I used to work in her office and, you know, do tea accounts and such like for little businesses and that was fascinating.

fundamental of T accounts is something I still use today. If I've got like a complex transaction going on in my life, I'll just draw little T accounts and work out where the debits and credits are. Huge, huge, hugely fundamental to that sort of accountancy world. So yeah, I got into accountancy. Then as I say, I had that partner at an accountancy firm when I was doing external audit, I said, internal audit doesn't have a future, don't go that way.

And I wasn't rebellious. I didn't seek it out just because he said that. But it rings in my ears because, you know, my career has blossomed. 16 wonderful years with Aberdeen were totally empowered. I was curious. I was at the top table. I wanted to make a difference. And I learned to understand the business and bring some insight and challenge into that. And that was it. I went straight into that. We'd done some internal audit work in public sector that whet my appetite.

pivoted into financial services. Again, no real preordained route. That wasn't a plan. It was just that's where the opportunity came. But yeah, having looked back, I mean, it's been an incredible career. Yeah, that's kind of what drove me to where I am.

Yeah.

Do you think then that the situations change that people are more, youngsters are more, more aware of internal audit now? Because yeah, do you think, because nobody would think about going into a career. So what do you think companies could be?

I hope so.

Mm.

Yeah, so companies should certainly celebrate their internal audit function. As I say, I know my old CEO was a massive fan of coming to me to get the real read on the business. That's hugely empowering. And you know, it wasn't just me, I would lean into my team and say, what's happening out in Singapore? What's happening here? Tell me. So everybody was part of that journey. I think the Institute's doing a lot of advocacy, connecting into the right universities.

promoting the qualification. I think people like myself and other heads of audit and other people in internal audit teams, tell the story, we're doing it because we love it predominantly and tell people about that. Get engaged with your organizations and the work to do to go into underprivileged schools and spread the message. The opportunities that, and again, you have to be brave, you have to be curious, you have to want to sort of say,

I've learned something here. I've definitely grown as a person and a technical, you know, auditors kind of thing. I want to share that. That's not mine to retain. That's not my legacy. I want to pass it on sort of thing. So loads going on. I hope we're out there as much as we can be. As I say, I think there's loads of good work being done. There's always more. But yeah, maybe something like this will be a good promotion of the opportunities that.

could be ahead in financial services generally and internal audit. Yeah, I hope so too, it's a great initiative.

I hope so. Yeah.

I, yeah, I just, it's funny because even when I talk to my friends or whoever, they still don't understand how diverse internal audit is and how different everybody is in terms of each, you know, discipline. Okay, all right, that's great. And so I suppose if we can just finish off with a quick fire round, which I've been doing with everybody.

Good, I hope I can be quick.

So if you can just tell me one piece of technology that you can't live without.

One piece of technology has got to be the mobile isn't it? It's got to be the iPhone 12 or 14 or whatever I'm on just now Yeah, just I hate myself for that a little bit, but can't live without it

And what are you reading right now?

reading right now. I'm not a massive reader actually, I'm too engaged with people. I want to sit in cafes and watch the world go by. So actually I've not got a book at hand at the moment. I've had some good reads in the past but nothing live at the moment.

Sure, and do you listen to a lot of podcasts now then, if you're on your phone?

I do my wife bless her as a social influencer is now getting into the podcast world and that's opened my eyes to what's out there. I love Ted talks, for example, is a bit of a pivot from that. And lots of clever people saying lots of clever things. Right. And that's a good way of learning as well. Instead of a book for me, I feel more engaged and connected to it.

And what's a company, tell me a company you admire a lot.

I had a brilliant 16 years with Aberdeen Asset Management. It's very different from when I left it. It's gone through acquisitions and name changes and stuff. But actually, I still think there's probably at the heart of it a cultural thing that, you know, I have seen and understood. It was wonderful for me. A great, great 16 years. So, yeah, still a massive fan of Aberdeen and its current guys, its initials as opposed to its full name.

And tell me, what's the best thing about working in internal audit?

So it comes back to that diversity of looking. I see everything in the business. I have to, I don't have to be an expert in everything, but I certainly have to have a feel for it. And that takes me into our world, Japan, Hong Kong. We've just opened an office in Singapore. I need to understand that at a high level and be curious about what we're doing out there, how it connects back to the mothership. So diversity. And again, I think

If you're in the right organisation that really understands internal audit as the third line and understands my role of independence and such like, you're at the top table. You really do have a voice and as long as you've got the credibility, technical skills and that je ne sais quoi to go with it. People are listening. I can be provocative. I don't always have to have the facts. I may have to go and get them, but I can certainly put my feeling out there.

And that's hugely satisfying.

And lastly, if you wasn't an internal auditor, what career would you have?

So I was at karaoke on Thursday last week, so I'm gonna say chart topping singer. I certainly thought so on the evening. No, seriously, what would I be if I wasn't an internal auditor? And I wouldn't want to say I was destined to be an internal auditor. I don't know, I'm quite creative. Photography I did for a while, and I quite enjoy photography. So yeah, let's go photography. I've got a good eye for a good picture, so we'll go with that.

Oh

Okay, well thank you very much for your time today, it's been great speaking with you and yeah we'll look forward to having you as a guest again.

You too.

Great and great initiative again, thank you.