Learning to Thrive Beyond Pornography use was the greatest challenge of our life and marriage. It had rocked my self confidence, tainted all of the most important experiences of my life and become the most impossible challenge I had.

With this podcast or at https://www.GetToThrive.com you'll learn about the struggle, how to overcome pornography use, and where to find additional resources to begin to thrive beyond pornography with your spouse.

At some point I took a step away from all the 12 step meetings and councilors and started to figure out my own brain, to look at my issue as something that I had the answer to and I was going to figure it out. Here I share those lessons and give you the power to start your own journey free. Whether you struggle with unwanted pornography use or are the spouse or partner, whether you feel stuck or just don't know where to start, here I will teach you principles, tools and skills that you can use today to change how you think and, in the end, what you do.

You'll hear interviews with my spouse, with experts on human sexuality and with former and current pornography users on how you can overcome your own struggle with addictive behavior.

The Thrive Beyond Pornography podcast will bring new perspective to your struggle and keep you coming back to improve all aspects of your life. (formerly, The Self Mastery Podcast: Overcome Pornography Forever)

Episode 2xx GYMO interview with Dan

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Scarlett 2i2 USB: This episode includes descriptions of sex and sexual activity and is intended for mature adult audiences.

Zach Spafford: Everybody welcome to thrive beyond pornography. I'm your host Zach Spafford and today I have my friend Dan on and Dan Introduce yourself to the people out there

Dan: I think if your kids were here, they'd probably refer to me as what, Zach? Uh, our sex friends. Yes. Um, Zach's a sex friend.

Zach Spafford: Yeah, that, uh, we were over at their house and Dan's got a 3D printed model of human anatomy and we're just talking normally at the kitchen table like you do at your friend's house and our eight kids and his , six kids are all hanging out. And the adults are being weird over at the kitchen table.

Dan: We're not, we're not being weird. Let's just really clarify. We're having a conversation, an adult conversation. Yeah, exactly. Talking about, you know, our line of work.

Zach Spafford: Yeah. What we do. I always tell people, I talk about sex for a living on the internet. I talk about porn on the internet for a living.

Dan talks about sex on the internet for a living too. Yeah, yeah, I do. You have, you have some amazing apps out there. You have an amazing community out there that you engage with and that you help married couples engage and improve their intimacy.

Dan: That's right.

Yeah. I don't want you to get the wrong impression about me. That's right. I help couples improve intimacy and sex in their relationships. And I work primarily with Christian couples.

Zach Spafford: Perfect.

Well, I love it. In the line of work that I do, sex is It is at the forefront of the conversation.

It really is because, while pornography and sex are not the same thing, a lot of times these two issues run in parallel and, especially with wives, I was having a conversation yesterday. There's a wife. She's like, I don't want my husband to be masturbating without me. And while, that's a whole topic.

In fact, Dan, you did a great conversation on that on your podcast with Dr. Jennifer Finlayson Fife. And I think this, this whole conversation about how to get more intimate, how to become more connected, how to step more fully into a relationship that you like and that you enjoy and that you desire is a tough conversation because People don't know how to talk about sex.

Dan: Yes.

Zach Spafford: Well, what's that song in the 80s? Let's talk about sex, baby. Do you remember?

Dan: Yeah, yeah. Uh huh.

Zach Spafford: I'm Showing my age here, but we don't we really don't and we don't do a good job of talking about it So if you were to get everybody in the world together for one minute What would you tell people about what you do and how you help people?

Dan: Oh, wow. I help people find more meaning and joy in their God given sexuality.

Zach Spafford: Tell us more about that. I,

Dan: I would talk about, the beauty, in people and how we find that in sexuality. I'd talk about how, Differences and struggles that you have building a sexual relationship are actually there to refine you and build you as a person.

I'd talk about how, there's a lot of joy to be had, a lot of depth of soul you can have, and in some ways I'd probably wax poetic and talk about even the spiritual side of building a great sexual relationship and all the benefits it provides.

I'd also talk about how Our eroticism is a really unique human trait and something a lot of us are ashamed of or afraid of and I'd probably teach a few principles on how to navigate all that and to find the goodness in our eroticism.

Zach Spafford: When you think about the amazing, connective capacity of having great sex. What are some of the key components that anybody can just start trying now?

Dan: What are the key components of what makes sex great? Is that, is that the question?

Zach Spafford: Well, what are the key components of what makes great sex? I think we can all agree that sex, it's fun, it feels good, it's enjoyable.

But at some point, there's a difference between just having an orgasm exchange, And the kind of sex that really connects you and draws you together and is something that you think about later and that you, and I know men think about sex a lot more than women. So in part, I think this question is very much for women, which is real fun that two dudes are out here telling women what to think.

Dan: Well, I think there's a lot of things and every couple is going to experience sex differently compared to the next couple. And it's as unique as our fingerprints. But that being said, there is research done on what constitutes great like peak sexual experiences and they always involve a very high amount of arousal.

As part of that, there's also a strong sense of attraction, and there's also the sense of obstacles that need to be overcome in order to get there. And if you think about anything

Zach Spafford: Say more about that.

Dan: Yes, if you think about anything meaningful you've ever done in life Whether it's running a marathon or starting a business or, whatever is a big, there's always have been obstacles along the way that you've had to overcome in order to get there.

And that's what made it special. So, in an essence, if you want great sex, you have to have obstacles worth overcoming in order to get there too. That's also an ingredient in a lot of people's peak sexual experiences.

Zach Spafford: What would you say is the biggest obstacle that people generally tend to struggle with in their in their sexual relationship?

Dan: I don't know. Generally, I can just speak from my own experience perhaps, but differences in libidos is an example of an obstacle. Or difficulty talking about it. Or the shame that's come from understanding your sexuality can be an obstacle. It could be inability to have an orgasm has been an obstacle in the past.

Or it's the, , you've had a hang up around a certain sexual behavior and that you're willing to push through it and try it and then you have a good experience in the end. That's like examples of obstacles. In the couples I coach, I think about one particular couple that's coming to mind. They're, they've been married over 20 years.

And their kids are now older teenagers. They're finally at the stage of life where like life is good and they can really focus on their marriage and their relationship. And one really difficult point in their marriage has been sex. Specifically for her, she doesn't find pleasure in it, but she's like, that's it, I'm done.

I'm sick and tired of this. It's time for me to find pleasure in sex. And as we started unpacking and, digging through all the layers and everything, and there's all these obstacles that have come up for her. And for her, part of her journey was she made the decision to, buy a vibrator. And that was a huge step for her because she's always felt that it was dirty, it was wrong, and just all the work that she went through to help her.

Help her overcome those barriers and start using one in their marriage. Bed just became a, just a, a really, because of those obstacles that they overcame, the sex became meaningful. It wasn't the object, but it was the obstacles they overcame that made things a lot more meaningful for them.

Zach Spafford: I, I love that.

And I think one of the things that you do really well within the work that you do is you help people find what is right for them. Yes, it's meaningful for them. It's not like here's a proscriptive list of How you do it better. It's let me help you find the space where you are comfortable where you're creative where you're Collaborative in your relationship so that you can have what it is that you have probably always dreamed that you want.

Dan: Yes

Zach Spafford: Yes, I love that. So here's a Question that I think comes up is how often should we have sex? Zach

Dan: Yeah, that's a great question. And I think you should have sex as often as you can.

Zach Spafford: That's a great answer. Yeah, that's a great answer. What are the factors that make it? Both difficult and important to have sex. What makes it difficult to have that really meaningful, good connective sex? And then, what is it that makes it important to relationships?

Dan: Well, let's talk really practically and let's just be really real.

I'm an, In all practical respects, I'm an ordinary guy. I'm not above the human condition. I've got these problems, I've got struggles, just like anyone else does.

Zach Spafford: I would say you're an extraordinary guy.

Dan: I don't think I am, but thanks, Zach. There's just family and family busyness. There's gonna be a lot of late nights, a lot of late nights and early mornings where you're just dragging through the day.

These are all barriers to creating, , that intimate connection. Part of, , life is Learning how to accept what is, and finding what you have control over, focusing on that. And then just putting less attention on things you don't have control over. I find I'm happiest when I can divide the difference between those two things, and focus on what I do have control over, and Not worry about things I don't have direct control over and then stay in that space, so I think what comes up for couples, it's just life life is going to be very different So you might hear one couple that's saying yeah We have sex three to four times a week and then you have here another couple saying we're having sex You know one or two times a month Just based on numbers alone, it's not an equal comparison because the couple that's having more frequency doesn't necessarily mean that the sex is going to be better or worse.

Then the couple with lower frequency, if both are, because it depends on what circumstances they're working with in their life to achieve that. But then again, there are couples where they are living far beneath their privileges. They could be having and enjoying a lot more of the sexual connection in their relationship, , but they're choosing not to and, they're self sabotaging in some ways that is really interrupting the ability to have a lot more joy in that.

Zach Spafford: What's, what are the self sabotaging things that you see, and I imagine it's on both sides of the street. It's not just men, it's not just women. I imagine there are both sides of the street where you get two people who ostensibly like each other, but they can't seem to connect at a higher level. What are they doing?

And what can they do to step away from that kind of behavior?

Dan: The biggest one I see is the idea that sex is an obligation for one or both people in the relationship. Where, let's do a typical example where the man has a higher desire and she's a lower desire spouse, but she has this mentality that sex is for him, it's something I do as a good wife, this is what I do to keep him from straying, or whatever the narrative that's in her mind, right?

And he keeps this idea alive because as long as he can keep the idea alive that sex is an obligation, he's going to get it. He also might say things like, it's been a while, or you need to do this for me, or I haven't, we have needs, can we talk about our needs? And then he frames his sexual desire in terms of needs that she needs to meet.

That keeps this, frame of obligation. And as long as that's around, you might have sex, and you might have a lot of sex, but it's not going to be passionate, because you can't be a passionate lover when you're doing something, at, to caretake or to service someone else. It's, there's no love or passion in that.

Zach Spafford: Yeah, I did a podcast, Sex is Not a Need, and that's exactly it. , there's no situation where your spouse is responsible for Your sexuality, you have to take that responsibility. So how do people step out of that?

Dan: Well, , it's a, so I, it's a cycle. And , if you're working with me, I would help you map out what your typical pattern is.

Cause we all, we, I believe marriages are a system and I'm a systems thinker. So , what.

Zach Spafford: Dan is very analytical. He's a computer programmer by trade.

Dan: Exactly. It's, you know, I think computer programmers make the very best marriage and sex coaches. I believe it. Part of it is because you've got to look at things from all different angles, consider the variables, and you analyze what is the algorithm going on, right?

We are, I believe, intimate relationships are a system. So, what does person A do and how does person B react? And what does person B do in reaction, how does that cause person A to react? So there's this chain link of reaction to reaction to reaction. And if you think of it like a Ferris wheel, , with each cab going around in a circle.

it becomes this chain that goes around and around and around. And it, it can take one person, it can take both people, it doesn't matter who. And all you need to do is take one part of that chain and just look at it a little bit differently and take a step in a better direction. And then a new way will light up for you.

And basically say no to duty sex. That's one way you can break that chain.

Zach Spafford: Yeah. And that's. That is super important. I remember that moment for myself. It was in the house next door and I was just tired of duty sex. I didn't... you get an orgasm, but then you have this sinking feeling of "that really wasn't really given that."

Dan: Yeah.

Zach Spafford: She didn't give that to me. Now, I feel terrible. I feel bad about that. I had my orgasm, but I also, I don't really enjoy this feeling that she doesn't really want me. So, Shifting and saying I'm not taking duty sex anymore. I want to know if you really want me. Not in that, "you have to show up differently and manage me by now pretending better that you want me," because I think that that's one way that I think a lot of couples try and do this, but really getting clean and clear, like, "I'm okay if you don't choose me."

"I can handle it" and being able to show that to my wife, which was hard because I still felt rejected. I still felt like, uh, I'm the little boy who doesn't get what he wants.

Dan: Yes. And it's so hard to say no to that duty sex because it might mean you get no sex and people think, well, some sex is better than no sex.

So it's a, it's, you're in a tough spot. Making that decision.

Zach Spafford: Yeah, but I think I think being able to go through that tough spot is what allows both of you to go Oh wait, all right, you know on Darcy's side. Oh wait, he's serious He really does want me for me. Like, I have a client who, she said, uh, I don't think my husband really wants me.

You could swap out the heads and you would get, he would get what he wants. He just wants a body. He just wants someone to Use, essentially.

Dan: Uh huh.

Zach Spafford: that idea, that takes a long time to, in a sense prove, I don't think prove is the right word, but in a sense demonstrate to your spouse. No, no, I really do want you.

I want the person...

Dan: Right.

Zach Spafford: ...you are and I can wait until you're ready to be with me and that's a big difference and I think When that shift happened our sex life shifted dramatically.

Dan: Yes,

Zach Spafford: it went from I mean, I thought we did pretty good But it went from I thought we did pretty good to that's good.

mid: Uh huh, right, right.

Zach Spafford: It was really quite good. It changed so much. When you think about helping someone getting to that place, especially the party that is most needy, What are the things that you're telling that person?

And sometimes that's the husband, sometimes that's the wife. Often it's the husband because of the way that men and women have different sexual, proclivities, right? So men are more often spontaneous desire. Women are more often, uh,

Dan: Responsive.

Zach Spafford: ...responsive desire. Thank you. That's the second time in two days that I've forgotten that, uh, but this is not just man versus wife.

This is just as much, women have this problem as much as men.

what do you say to the husband or to the person who has that higher desire that they're trying to push and pull , cajole their spouse into connecting and want that connection, but they're not, they don't seem to be getting it.

What do you say to that person?

Dan: All right. I've been through this myself and can I answer that question in the short autobiographical story of when I've been through it?

Zach Spafford: Absolutely. We love a lot of biographical stories.

Dan: So, , my wife and I just, we've experienced a lot of the common struggles that couples have when it comes to our sex life.

So we're no different. If you, many years ago, we had really big desire discrepancy. I wanted sex a lot and my wife didn't. And I did all the wrong things to try to get more sex. And this one particular time, we were having a discussion about it again. And, you know, eye roll, we're talking about it again.

I like to be the superior one in our relationship when it came to that. So, I promised to take over cooking, shopping, all the meal prep and clean up for two weeks, which is take a load off of her shoulders, cause they say, share the mental load. That's how you help your wife get in bed, right? Or whatever.

So I was totally playing that card, and she agreed to read this book that I had read twice, highlighted, doggy eared, margins, like, Emily, read this paragraph, pay attention to this. It was really a book I wanted her to read to help her quote unquote Develop her sexuality more. So I'm in the kitchen banging pots and pans.

I'm getting dinner done on time, which is also a point of contention in our relationship before and bragging to my in laws about what a good husband I am because I'm taking over the cooking and Shopping and everything for two weeks, but behind it all Behind the veneer of this really nice thing that I'm doing as a husband is a subtle dynamic that I haven't figured out.

And my wife doesn't, I know what's no, what it is. And she doesn't, I, She needs to catch up to me. She needs to do what I want to do in order for me to be happy. So there's this no matter how hard my wife would try in that kind of a scenario, it would never be good enough for me because I need to be Quote unquote, on top.

I need to be ahead. I need to be, because that's where I'm getting my sense of myself in our relationship. During those two weeks, do you think my wife is in the bedroom reading that book and absorbing it and totally getting the things are clicking, like "Oh, I get it now."

I know what I need to do. Absolutely not, because why would she? Why would she want to be invested in this kind of a relationship when it's all about her losing and me winning? That's not how you create a good sexual relationship. The problem is I wasn't mature enough to see it then, and so thanks for good coaching and, just experience and better conversations with my wife.

She helped me really see how I'm contributing to the desire discrepancies in my marriage. When I treat her not as an equal, you don't have, you can't have great passionate sex with someone that you don't see as an equal. As soon as you break that and create a hierarchy where one is more important than the other or one goes one up, the other one goes one down in your relationship dynamic, it's really hard to have true sexual passionate desire for the other person.

Yeah. So you have to watch out for that.

Zach Spafford: They can never choose you.

Dan: No.

Zach Spafford: If choosing you means That they're wrong, that they're less than, that they aren't being, um, seen as a partner. They never have that capacity to really choose you.

Dan: Right, right.

Zach Spafford: That's, that's tough. So what did you do instead?

Dan: Well, I backed off.

And that's a hard thing to do. I remember one night just being so frustrated about how things are going. And a lot of it was like, I have a, this really long list of things I want to do sexually. And at the time, my wife's list was very, very small. And I felt incompatible. Like, I'm adventurous.

I, there's all these fun things I want to do. And, and she's unwilling to do it. step into these things. That was, uh, that's where a lot of my sources of frustrations were. And I, I, I'm not alone on this. A lot of couples experience, it's not maybe just desire discrepancy per se, but it's variety discrepancy too.

And tied on my shoes and I went for a run that night just to work out my frustration on the pavement. With the stars overhead and I'm going on this long run and I'm listening to this podcast. the person speaking said something that really got my attention and he's telling the story of, um, so of your audience, I don't know how many of them are familiar with the Book of Mormon or the, the origins of it.

Essentially, they come from these golden books plates, the record translation is only a part of what was in the golden plates. There's a part that was not translated. It's been sealed, locked down. And as a boy in their family, they had a replica of these golden plates of what People think they may have looked like, and he and his brothers tried to spend all this time trying to break the seal to get into the part that you can't read, but ignored the part that you could read.

So I think a tendency in me was I wasn't appreciating and cherishing the good that I had. And ignoring that and hyper focused on the parts that I was not getting and because I wasn't getting justified my unhappiness in the relationship.

Zach Spafford: Yeah. Yeah. And as you let go of that, that shifted things for you.

Dan: That did. Absolutely.

Zach Spafford: What did it look like on your wife's side?

Dan: She's gone through a tremendous amount of growth herself and she's overcome a lot of obstacles and hang ups and everything. So she's an extremely courageous woman. And she's had her own experiences here and there. And I think a lot of shifts have come from on her side.

Learning how to say yes. Learning how to give in. I remember one night...

Zach Spafford: when you say give in, you really, you, you mean Give of your heart. Yeah, not like,

Dan: not in that pejorative way that we sometimes say it. No, no, no, no. What I mean by that is, it's easy to run your life by fear, and it's easy, it's very easy to run your life by fear.

A lot of people do it. It's not a great way to live your life, I think. No, it's not. I remember one particular night, It was late we had earlier in the day talked about we're going to have sex that night, but I was tired and I didn't know if I was going to be up for it. And so I said, hey, how about we just cuddle in bed fully expecting a, like a cold response to that as our pattern has been.

But this time she said, I would really like that. And that really caught me off guard. Like, Really? She would really like that? And internally, I hope I'm okay sharing her story, because I don't have permission to share that story. But the point is, she was saying yes. to something and she was saying yes to connection. That's what she was saying yes to. Whereas before it would be easy wouldn't say no because she's saying no to something that she may have felt uncomfortable doing or something that triggered a fear in her. But when she started saying yes to more connection, yes to pleasure. Yes to that, I think that really helped her.

I just remember that night. I felt a huge shift in our relationship in the positive direction. She's choosing me. She's choosing herself in that.

Zach Spafford: I'll let you connect with her on whether or not I can share that story on the podcast and we'll either edit it out or we'll keep it, whatever. But, it sounds like it's letting go of that fear of Rejection, letting go of that fear of what am I obligating myself to and stepping into a choice to be with you that maybe she didn't feel like she had before or maybe was more difficult for her to engage with that allowed her to say, I want to be here.

I want to choose this.

Dan: And maybe part of it, too, is in that moment, she knew that whether she said yes or no, there'd be no negative consequences for her. Yes. Right? We had set up, we had worked on our relationship to the point where I can offer something, and it was a genuine offer. It wasn't a strings attached offer.

Yeah. And so she could freely choose yes, or she could freely choose no. And that made it easier for her to choose pleasure and connection.

Zach Spafford: Darcy and I had a similar event a number of years ago where We were, as they say, in flagrante and she just, for whatever reason, she was like, "Oh, I really can't do this anymore."

And she hops off and she lays down. And I think most men, me included, specifically me, I would have been like, "Oh, okay, let me finish and then we'll deal with whatever your thing is." And I, in that moment, I was fortunate enough to have the presence of mind to say, "Oh, well, if you're not into this, let's connect on a different level."

Let's do something else. What's going on? What's happening in your mind? Fortunately, I had that presence of mind. From that point on, Darcy knew that I, that she could trust me with whatever it was. She desired sexuality. It was never again, one of those things where she had to go, do I have to manage Zach in my response around sex?

Let's talk about sexting. This comes up a lot. Does it come up a lot with you? I can't quite, I think your lights turned off, Dan.

There it is. I put one of those, I put one of those on my bathroom because the kids kept leaving the lights on in the bathroom. I did it with the fan and the light and it has made all the difference. That's good. Electrical bill. So let's talk about sexting. Cause this comes up a lot in, in the work that I do.

I get messages on. Instagram about this somewhat regularly. And so it's an interesting conversation, I think, because, on the one hand, I think a lot of people are very concerned that their, that their information, they don't want their pictures out there. They don't want, some hacker to take control of their pictures.

So there's that concern.

Let me read the text that I got, the message that I got. He said, I have a question. As a man who has been delivered from pornography, it is a good, is it a good idea or option for a man and a wife to sext? And I assume he means a husband and a wife to sext.

And, and I think this is a really interesting question and I'm curious to know your thoughts on this. I know you have an app and I'd love for you to tell people about that as well, but I'm curious to understand what you think about this. Idea.

Dan: Yeah, it may be a good idea. It may not be a good idea, and here's why.

First of all, the apprehension around it is real. I talked to another couple where a few years after they were married, he really wanted some nude pictures of his wife, and she said, "no, no, no, I'm not comfortable with that." But she finally relented and sent him a few. And he cherished those photos. They loved them.

Somehow, though, they got uploaded to the, their photo backup and their iCloud or whatever. And her father Saw them. They're like flipping through like family photos, like of a recent trip they went on and, , there's all these nude photos of, of his daughter in sexy poses in there.

And she was so mortified. And so embarrassed. I'm never doing that again. So like the concern is real, like this is private. Th this is a very, very private, we're not. We're not on display for the world to see this. And generally speaking, men are far more visual than women. Men love seeing photos of their wife naked.

There are fantastic ways to build arousal and connection if you use it in that direction in your relationship. The struggle though is what to do with the photos, are they private enough, and basically, what, do you have a game plan of, of, it basically comes to your tolerance, can I tolerate what would happen if this got out or if this escaped or whatever? Then there's also the struggle of many families have kids who use their parent's devices for school or playing games on their phone or whatever, or it might not just be phones but phones and iPads that are synced together or tablet computers with all the, you have the same logins, they're all synced together.

So there's a lot of photo sharing and it's a great convenient feature, but it also comes with a lot of risks. So part of it is to understand what's your tolerance level. So it may not be for everyone. and what safeguards can you take from a technology's perspective to help with that?

So, like you mentioned, I have an app called Just Between Us. And we use the same encryption that banks will use or the government will use for top secret things. We use that level of encryption for everything, insomuch that even if the worst thing were to happen, our servers got hacked they downloaded the database and everything. All they would get is a bunch of junk of ones and zeros. It'd make no sense because the only place the key to unlock those images resides is on your device itself. It's only here.

Zach Spafford: So you don't store any of that. You don't store any of the photos on your servers at all.

Dan: I store the jumbled up encrypted copy because and I need to store it so that if you send a message and your spouse is offline, when they come online, they need to download that image. Like it's just logistically it, things are stored online and they do online, but what is stored online is not an image file. It's not a video file.

But those are all designed to communicate with many people. Like I can have a conversation with you, Zach, and a conversation with my wife, and a conversation with coworkers, for example, using that app. Group text. Yes, but there's still the risk of, I think I'm sending this to my wife, but it actually goes to you, right?

There's that because the platform is built.

Zach Spafford: I'm chatting with you and then I'm switching conversations and then I accidently Yeah, switch back and I said the wrong thing to the wrong person. Yeah, absolutely

Dan: So this app eliminates that because there's only two people Allowed on the app. That's it you and your spouse.

That's it. You can't, you can't You can't message other people. I can't have.

Zach Spafford: So you can only use it between you and your spouse. There's like no polyamory here. There's only like one person and one other person. That's it. That's it. Because what you do is like you connect them somehow, I'm not technical enough to know.

Yeah. You install the app. There's a sync code and whatever. That's brilliant.

This is a day and age that is very different maybe than the way that, I grew up before. Cell phones.

Dan: Yes. We're the same age.

Zach Spafford: Yeah, right. We are the same age. The only way to get a picture of your spouse was to take it and then go to, you know, Rite Aid and have it physically developed or do it yourself.

This is a different world that we live in. Navigating this can be somewhat difficult. This app helps people manage some of that risk.

Dan: Yes, you could get a Polaroid, you know, you could do it that way. Yeah, you could get a Polaroid, that's

Zach Spafford: true. Those are coming back in fashion. But from An intimacy perspective.

What would you say is the benefit of doing it? And what would you say, does it allow you as a, as a couple to do?

Dan: I think, okay. We're talking to the context of this is a woman sending a photo of herself to her husband, I think is what we're talking about, right? Yeah. Very, very intimate. I think

Zach Spafford: Often that's the direction that it goes,

Dan: but that's the direction it goes.

It does. And it doesn't have to be just images. It can be text. It can be Romance. There could be a lot of romance involved in these very intimate conversations. The benefit is you're building intimacy. You're building closeness in it. You're building the sense of excitement about each other. And there's also a part of our human psyche about our eroticism.

For a lot of people, they respond really well to the naughtiness factor. There's something that feels really naughty about the way you're having this conversation with someone, with your spouse. that you wouldn't have with anybody else and that fuels arousal and fuels attraction in a relationship. You, again, you want lots of arousal, you want lots of attraction and anything you can do to bring in more of that into your relationship, the better your sex life is going to be.

Zach Spafford: Well, and I think part of it is that risk when you risk with your spouse, like you send them a picture, especially, for the people that, that I work with, they have, they've usually been exposed to pornography at some level and the risk of sending something so exposing to your spouse where they might reject it.

They might choose it. And if they choose it, if they like it, if they're like, that's gorgeous, I love that, that risk pays off, but there's also the risk that it won't pay off. And I think being able to, this is one of those obstacles, I think that you're talking about where you're overcoming that obstacle of, can I risk really sharing myself with my spouse in a way that I'm maybe not yet comfortable with, but that I want to create greater connection through.

That's a huge opportunity.

Dan: Yes. I love that. And it's not about having material to jack off with. It's sorry to be crass there. That's not the point. This isn't about that. It's about sharing something intimate to build a special kind of relationship that you have with your spouse that you don't have with anyone else.

That's what it's about, I think.

Zach Spafford: I, I would agree with that a hundred percent. This is not simply. You know, a lot of times in the context of what the work that I do, a lot of times it's like, can I get, I euphemistically call them fancy pictures in order to resolve my urges. And I don't think that's. I don't think That's not what it's

Dan: about.

Zach Spafford: And I think that's really the point. I think if you want to have a great relationship. When couples come to me, when they come to you, they're looking for a better relationship.

They're looking for something that they thought they were going to have. They're looking for something that they see in someone else. And if you want that You have to be seen. You also have to be willing to see the other person and you, you have to be willing to expose who you really are. I, I talk about a concept that I call the presented self.

This is the person that I am when I'm alone with myself versus the person that I show to other people. At work I have a presented self. At church, I have a presented self. But between you and your spouse, The goal is to have as little of that as possible to, to really show yourself to them and really allow them to show themselves to you and be trustworthy of that.

And the story

Dan: that you just told about you and Darcy, you're getting it on and she's just not into it. Yeah, and you had a, you know, a moment of clarity and you can just lay it probably naked side by side and just talk about it. That's like a great example of just seeing her. I'm here with you.

Zach Spafford: I'm not here just for an orgasm.

Dan: No. Yeah. I'm here for you. That's the beauty of it. The reality is, we don't want just orgasms. We want to be with another person. We want to know that we matter. We want them to know that they matter to us. We, it's not just skin on skin, although that's really beautiful too, but we want people to look into our eyes and when they see us to know that they desire what they see.

Flaws and all. That is such a beautiful part of being human. And that's what sex can create when you build it in that direction.

Zach Spafford: Yeah.

Dan: So, a, an executive was hiring for middle manager.

They had an open position and there's three candidates and he asked the candidates the same question. He's like, okay, here's a scenario. You have an employee who's late to work. How would you treat that employee? So candidate one said, "well, I'll give them three warnings and if they're late the third time, three strikes you're out, I'd fire them."

The second candidate said, "well, I'll make a environment where, you know, even if he is late, we'll have other people compensate for it and we just really want to keep our people. So I'll just make it and not make it uncomfortable for them so they feel welcome to come to work." So, okay. And the third candidate said, "I'd ask him why he's late."

I guess we got hired.

Zach Spafford: Yeah, yes.

Dan: Why? Matters so much more than just the behavior and this applies even in our sex lives, right? Like I'm gonna steal that joke from you. Yeah, go ahead This is part of the podcast. You can put it into like Why? Matters. Yeah, so I want images from my wife, right? Yeah, I want her to send me naked pictures.

Why? I want to have more sex with my spouse. Why? Or I don't want to have sex with my spouse. Why? It's so easy to just go to, well, this is the steps you do, or this is why, but you got to dig into the why of your relationship. And that, that's, I think the beauty of coaching on what you do, Zach, and what I do.

This is, this is the work we help. You got to understand the why and understand that.

Zach Spafford: Yeah, well, and it's interesting you talk about being late and, that's one of the things that this couple disagrees on and they had this great example where he, runs an office of people and she was coming to their annual Christmas dinner and she's late and she's the chronically late partner in their relationship and he's the chronically on time or early partner in their relationship.

And this. This question of like, why is so good in that context? Cause if she's late because she's being rude, that's different than she's late because there was traffic and they live in a large city. And of course there's always traffic. And of course she was late. And rather than his response at the time was to be upset for the whole rest of the night and ignore her, rather than ask why, why do, why were you late and understand her and then choose her in spite of it.

She finds it difficult to step in because of that. And I think this is really that, that, to your point, understanding why, and in the context of being late, I think we have a societal norm that being on time is the right thing. But I was, as I was just talking to them, I'm like, what if being late is the choice that she's making because she doesn't want to have small talk.

She doesn't want to waste her time. She's not willing to consider other people over herself because she does that so much in other arenas of her life that 15 minutes late is a choice she's making because it is good for her. Right, right. And we, that, I mean, I'm saying that out loud. And if people hear that, what are they they're thinking?

You're like, no, being late is, is wrong, but it's not necessarily, I mean, 200 years ago, late was not a thing, right? You showed up when you showed up. Late, late didn't exist. There were no clocks, right? Maybe not 200 years ago, but you get my point. Right, uh huh. Yeah, so why, why do you want fancy pictures of your wife?

That's a really good question. Yeah,

Dan: right. And we're talking about improving sex and marriage, right? I think sometimes it just comes down to you need a better sex education. And if you got your sex education from porn alone, that's not a great education. And a lot of us don't come from families where sex was talked about, or at least the pleasure conversation wasn't talked about in a positive way.

Zach Spafford: Yeah.

Dan: And so, we lack a good sex education. And no wonder why you don't want sex. No wonder why your spouse isn't as enthusiastic, because frankly, the sex you're having isn't great. So, It does make sense as a couple, if you're willing, to learn how to make sex really pleasurable and fun and satisfying.

Zach Spafford: Yeah. And if, if I think you said this earlier, and I think it's a really good point, if the pictures that you're asking your spouse for are supposed to be some sort of proxy for pornography, that's probably not a good reason.

Dan: No.

Zach Spafford: And if the reason that your spouse is sending you pictures is Because they want to connect with you or pique your interest or show you that they are revealing them, their entire self to you.

That's a way different reason. And I think a much more meaningful reason to have those pictures. Yeah. And I, I also think that those, the pictures aren't necessarily even the pinnacle of what you're looking for,

Dan: right?

Zach Spafford: Because the text message or communications that really show, that your spouse has thought about you and is choosing you and wants to engage that part of your relationship, that, that to me is, that's, that's, that's Probably just as meaningful as a picture.

Dan: Yeah, , it's play. We're introducing play into the relationship because play is also a form of choosing your spouse, right? Like I know of a couple, he was away in a neighboring town on a business seminar and it was like an hour commute from his home. And instead of like staying overnight in the neighbor town, he's just going to come home really late every night and leave early the next morning, back and forth for three days.

So he's sitting there on the first day in the room in the seminar, and he opens up his phone and totally out of his comfort zone, he sends a message to his wife saying, Hey, I heard your husband is out of town.

Right? This is totally like nervous. He doesn't know how she's going to respond. Like this is like, yeah. And, but she picked up on the cue and she replied, " you're right. He's out of town, want to come over?" And then they had this banter going back and forth over text message while he's sitting in this boring workshop. They're pretending to have an affair, right?

They're not having an affair, but it's the play and it's the bantering. And, she's "like, well, uh, I'll leave the back door unlocked tonight. Maybe, maybe, maybe, maybe. I don't know, cause I'm tired and I've got, the kids might be up so the back door might be unlocked." But that was how they played. So he comes home and he doesn't go home like through the garage or through the front door.

Zach Spafford: I often liken it to little kids when they play,

Dan: you know,

Zach Spafford: I don't know if you've ever seen this, I'm sure you have, you have little kids, where you've got a pair of kids who are playing for hours.

Uh huh. On nothing. Uh huh. It's them and like one thing and they're, they play and they interact and the story goes back and forth and it has its ups and downs and all they're doing is just engaging their imagination. And sex and sexuality and eroticism I think within relationships is very much the adult form of that.

This is how I think we go from just orgasm exchange to, you know, two, three, four, sometimes more hours of really losing yourself in the body of your spouse.

Dan: Right.

Zach Spafford: Yeah, and it's just it's a different framework, right? Like you said porn is not a very good educator just like Doritos are not a very good nutrition,

Dan: Correct.

Yeah,

Zach Spafford: it's not that's not sex. It's not good sex, right? It is idealized and sterilized and but it's not really sex just like Doritos are not really food You could not live on a deserted island for the rest of your life. Just on Doritos

Dan: No,

Zach Spafford: you become you become nutritionally deficient and this What what you teach which is what I love is this idea of how can I engage my spouse?

in a way that allows them the space to choose in and be a part of this and play and let their imagination run. I'm reminded of, the rules of improv.

Dan: Uh huh. Are you with the rules of improv? Yes. You never say no, right? Never say no. It's yes and, uh huh. Yes and,

Zach Spafford: right?

Dan: Uh huh. Yes

Zach Spafford: and, and I, there are more than that.

That's the one that always comes up is yes and. And it's not yes and because I have to. Uh huh. Yes and because I want to contribute. And I want to create. And the, the saying of no, and I think this is where arousal comes in. I think it's a lot easier to say yes and be fully engaged when you're fully aroused.

And I don't think, I think a lot of people miss this step.

Dan: Uh

Zach Spafford: huh. What do you think about that?

Dan: Oh, absolutely. Arousal is, we're not aroused enough sometimes. And part of it could be education, you just don't understand how bodies work, whatever. But, and sometimes it's impatience on the part of one or both spouses.

But yeah, arousal, but arousal is not just physical. It's mental too. Yes. In fact, it's, there's three, three things that contribute to arousal. There's the physical stimulation. Okay. There's the psychological stimulation. That's like using imagery. Some people call it like sexy talk or dirty talk. Like those are things you can do to incorporate more of that psychological arousal.

And the third is the relationship. People get, can get a lot of arousal because they feel cared for, they feel like they're playing with someone, they feel curious about someone, like those things contribute in that relationship to the arousal.

Zach Spafford: Yeah, so if I'm a wife and I'm sitting here listening to you say all of these things and you know my husband views pornography, one of the things that's in the back of my mind, I hear this all the time, I know Darcy dealt with this, it's, "Well, I don't want to be porn. I don't want to be that for him."

Dan: Yeah, as if it's a partner substitute fantasy or whatever, right? Right. That's what's going on.

Zach Spafford: How do I, how do I engage in the, those three components of arousal in, in the face of these ideas?

Dan: Well, it would, so if you're, so the question is, if I'm the wife and I look at my husband who uses porn, who also wants to have sex with me, and I'm thinking I'm just a partner replacement, is that's good.

So the first step is, first check in, " do you really want to have sex with me? Or are you having sex with someone else when you have sex with me?" Like mentally, like, can you engage in that

Zach Spafford: conversation? Because I've asked this question a lot because sitting across from spouses. What do they say?

I don't want that and then I say, well ask him is he thinking about someone else? Is he thinking about porn when he's having sex with you? I've not run across anybody who has said Yes, now that because we're asking

Dan: because they're not being honest perhaps. I don't know.

Zach Spafford: That's a possibility. But I know from my own personal experience I never was and I think that for generally for the men that I work with that's the case.

Dan: I've never personally dealt with that. And, but those I coach that have. There has to be a deep, an element of trust again. Why? Right. Why is this coming up?

And yes, the history of pornography use is there and use pornography to get aroused so that you can have orgasms. There's like a predictable pattern there. And now you're sexually engaged with someone else. So it's easy to think you really don't want me. You just want an apparatus, right? You just want.

So, you have to make sex, yeah, yeah, you have to make sex more intimate for that. I would recommend for a couple that's dealing with that, if you can begin sex slowly and with lots of eye contact. Because, slow it down and really look into each other's eyes and be fully present. Can you breathe together?

Can you slow it down together? Because if the entire time as a wife, having sex with a man, I'm evaluating, is he with me or is he with someone else? Is he with me or is he with someone else? I, it's going to really interrupt my ability to be fully present and enjoy that experience. And it's going to have an effect on him too, naturally, right?

We affect each other, that the. She's going to have a hard time, sorry, he's going to have a hard time trying to figure out what do I need to do to help arouse her more, how to get this going to the next stage together in our sexual interaction. So, you feed off of each other in that.

So, slow it down, And go kind of internal, can you check yourself in that, understand where you're settling, can you find a center, and then bring your best self to your spouse in that.

Zach Spafford: Well, it sounds like at least part of it needs to be more conversation around, what are you thinking about? Yeah.

What's going on in your mind when we're having sex? Can I ask you to? And I think we don't ask those questions partly because we're afraid of the answer. Because what if he really is thinking about someone else when you're having sex?

Dan: Yeah, that's a reality you'll need to deal with.

Zach Spafford: Yeah. , and then you need to deal with that reality so that you could either choose in or not choose in.

And I think a lot of people would rather leave well enough alone, get our orgasms, and not really know each other.

Dan: Right.

Zach Spafford: That process of knowing each other is tough.

Dan: Right. Right.

Zach Spafford: When you think about your process for yourself, for the clients that you work with, what has been the single most valuable tool to getting to a place where you are more connected, more intimate?

Dan: Yes, I think the tool is called the ABCDEs and really quickly the A is for awareness and accountability. When you're a lot more aware of your internal process and your emotions and how your thoughts form your feelings, which, of course, form your actions. That's the A that helps. B is when you're balanced in your belonging to each other, where you're not so fused or emotionally like attached and you're not so independent and at arm's length that you can have a better sense of balance in the belonging in the relationship.

The C is for courageous choosing. That's when you really courageously choose this other person, like the other couples you've been talking about, we've been talking about. Knowing that your spouse is going to step in with both feet and stay there, and a commitment to yourself that I am going to step in with both feet and in this, and I choose this person, I choose this relationship, solves so many problems and unlocks so much potential for great sex in a relationship.

The D is for developing desire. Desire isn't something that just comes and goes. It's there's a process to get it. So, knowing your own step, knowing your own turn ons, and your own turn offs, they call them brakes, and accelerators, or your, desire patterns. Am I more spontaneous? Am I more responsive? Or what things really help bridge the gap to help me get there?

And part of that is understanding your own anatomy. Like, this part of my body feels really good being touched in this way, and this part feels good being touched in that way. That's part of developing that desire. And the E is for embrace your eroticism. That's when you can really understand like what, what makes you tick erotically and sharing that with your spouse.

So that's the tool I give to couples, the ABCDEs, as you work through and progress to creating a great sex life.

Mm-Hmm. Really? Yes. I love that. Yeah.

Was there anything else that you wanted to share with the audience?

Dan: It just makes sex great. Makes sex really good. And when you have sex, make it great sex. And there's a lot of dimensions to that. There's a physical side.

There's like tech, just get good at technique. Just get to know your spouse really well and what he or she really likes in bed. But there's also the emotional side. Make it really connecting and bonding.

Zach Spafford: Yeah One of the things that I talk about with the couples that I work with is that sex is a barometer of the rest of Your relationship.

Yeah, and making sex good is a meaningful way of making the rest of your relationship good, right? I don't think it's possible. I know at least in my relationship with Darcy I don't think it's possible to have great sex when we are not emotionally connected When we are not capable of choosing each other, we could still have sex.

It's just not great sex. And as a barometer of our relationship and as a barometer of the relationships that I the couple that I was just coaching, they don't have good sex and part of it is that he doesn't choose her. You could just swap out my head and it wouldn't matter. That same idea is permeated throughout their relationship.

And it's one of those things that when they work on that, they will start to see the results. But it won't be tomorrow. But it will eventually happen if they do that.

Dan: And Zach, I 100 percent agree. And also, I believe the inverse is also true. Things may not be going well in your relationship emotionally, but then you have really good sex.

And it has this tendency to at least solve a lot of the little things, like the little irritants kind of go away, right? Because if you can have that kind of an experience with your spouse, then yeah. I, we can get through these other things. It gives you courage and gives you, that meaningful endurance, through other things too.

So, you can solve the problem in either direction. You can start with the sex first and it helps the emotions, or you can help with the emotional side first and improves the sex. Or work on both simultaneously.

Zach Spafford: Yeah, I love that.

So, if it's about getting the sex better and emotions help, can you give us one tip to help us do that?

Can you help us really start on that pathway?

Dan: Yeah, I got a lot of tips for you. I call them black belt sex tips, really, because it's, you're at the point where you're really to dive into making sex better. Just really elevating it to the next level. And my app is full of all of, a lot of these tips and techniques too, but one thing that I've stumbled across lately that I'm teaching a lot that I absolutely love is this idea for a woman, her vaginal opening has far more sensitivity than deep inside her vagina.

And you can test this with a fingertip. You can put pressure around the entrance of her vagina, and she'll feel that far more than she'll feel pressure deep inside the vagina. That's just the way women are anatomically built. But you can take advantage of this during intercourse, where you begin with you know, as you, as a man thrusts, but you stay shallow in your thrust, you stay around the entrance of it, and what you do is, it's like a count to ten, you'll do like nine shallow thrusts really slowly, and then one deep thrust, and then you're going to start it over, but this time you're going to do eight shallow thrusts, and then move into two deep thrusts, and then seven shallow, and then three deep, and so on, and so on.

And, part of it is a tease. Part of it is a buildup. Part of it's because you're taking your time and making it slow. But for a lot of women, they respond really well to that style of thrusting. And you can add to it kissing, deep kissing, eye contact, Sexy talk or whatever it is that you incorporate into your erotic palette.

But it's a great way to activate the female's sexual response because you're thrusting better. It's a better way to do your spouse. And by the time you get to the fives or the sixes, she's probably ready to just let it all go.

Zach Spafford: Yeah. I love it. And you said your app has a lot of tips like this that can help.

Dan: Yes. Right. Just

yeah. Which is important. A lot of us, we don't talk about it. We don't discuss this, these things. I think we need to talk about these things more.

There are definitely those moments where I'm like, what am I doing? I'm insane. I'm talking about porn on the internet for a living. I'm talking about my porn struggle on the internet for a living. I don't know if you ever had those kinds of Very personal work, isn't it? Yeah, it's very personal work. And being able to say these things out loud and use correct terminology and have a meaningful conversation about things that we often think are taboo or highly private, and that's not to say that you have it, you know, In the wrong environments, but in the right environment with the right company, these conversations can be super meaningful and super helpful as you navigate them for yourself, as you help your children navigate those things. maybe your siblings are trying to navigate some difficult issues and even your parents and being able to, to speak comfortably about these things is important. Like, you know, the word masturbation, like how many people don't ever use that word in their daily life. And yet

Dan: it's

Zach Spafford: such a common practice that we do not, that, there's this real disconnect between our ability to talk about something that's happening and the thing that's happening.

Dan: Yep. Absolutely. Absolutely.

Zach Spafford: Love it.

I love it. Dan, as always, it's a pleasure to talk to you. Uh, you know, we're going to have to go get some Thai food soon enough. Yep. Yep. I know your schedule's busy. Dan, Dan, just, uh, did you pick up your son from college yet?

Yeah, I did. Uh huh. He's now off. He's getting ready to go on his mission, right?

Dan: Yep in June

Zach Spafford: Oh my gosh, a whirlwind a whirlwind of life. So Maybe we'll have to get together after the summer after everything calms down. The kids are all back in school Love having you on love talking about this topic with you because you're doing it Depth of understanding is so great and your capacity for just being present and hearing people is, is wonderful.

How can people find you?

Dan: The best way to find me is my website, getyourmarriageon. com. And there you'll find the links to download my apps, like the Just Between Us app that we mentioned today, also Intimately Us. And, uh, you'll see our retreats that we have coming up. We have a virtual retreat in July and an in person one in October.

And also my signature program, the Get Your Marriage On program. I love it. Where I help couples improve sex in their marriage.

Zach Spafford: And you're, uh, on the birthday of your app. Yes. It's June 9th. You have a special Yes. June 9th.

Dan: June 9th is a special day on the calendar, because when you write it out, it's 6 9, and I thought it was just really fitting.

Perfect. That that's the day we launched our app, and that's the day. Uh, anyway, to celebrate, uh, if you download the app and use the app. All the premium features of the app are free for the 9th and the 10th. So it's a great time to jump in and, and check it out and see how it works.

Zach Spafford: Yeah.

Dan: Yeah. Use it in your marriage.

Use it in your relationship.

Zach Spafford: I love it. thank you so much for coming on Thank you for sharing your depth of knowledge with all of my wonderful podcast listeners Thank you for being willing to expose yourself mentally and emotionally on this subject so that more people can Follow in your footsteps can have a better marriage can engage this in a new and I think more wonderful way Thank you.

Thank you. All right, my friend, everybody have a great week. We'll talk to you next week.

Dan: Thank you. Bye.