Why do friendships feel so hard and are they even worth fighting for?

In this honest and empowering conversation, Willow sits down with friendship expert Danielle Bayard Jackson to unpack the complexities of female friendships—from unmet expectations and conflict to healing after hurt.

If you’ve ever felt exhausted by friendships, questioned your worth in relationships, or wondered if it’s easier to just do life alone… this episode is for you.

Because the truth is: The very place you’ve been hurt might also be the place God wants to bring healing.

Key Takeaways

• You weren’t meant to do life alone. Friendship isn’t optional—it’s essential to your well-being.
• Unspoken expectations create silent resentment. Healthy friendships require clear, honest communication.
• Conflict can deepen connection. When handled well, it actually brings people closer.
• Healing happens in community. The risk of relationships is also where transformation happens.
• Not every friend can meet every need. Healthy women build relational diversity, not dependency on one person.

Connect with Danielle

Website | daniellebayardjackson.com

Friend Forward Podcast | Apple Podcasts or Spotify

Women's Relational Health Institute | womensrelationalhealthinstitute.com

Instagram | @daniellebayardjackson

Book | Fighting for our Friendships (available on Amazon or wherever books are sold)

Collide Book

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Mentioned in this episode:

Book | Collide: Running Into Healing When Life Hands You Hurt

National Bestseller ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ Life hands us hurt we never asked for—leaving us anxious, insecure, and stuck. In Collide, Willow invites you to stop numbing and running, and start bravely stepping into the places you’ve avoided—because Jesus meets us in our mess, and healing starts there.

Hey there. Welcome to the Collide Podcast. This is Willow, and I'm so glad to get to hang out with you today and talk about female friendships. Holy cow.

I could have interviewed this woman, Danielle Bayard Jackson, for hours.

She was full of wisdom and information and encouragement and practical things that we can do to not only repair relationships, better relationships, make new friends, make sure that our friendships last the long haul. So many things. And I know that you long for community and you long for healthy relationships, so I can't wait for you to listen to this conversation.

Danielle, I'm so excited to have you on the podcast today to talk about friendships. What a just important conversation that we need to have.

Yeah, I'm so glad to be here and any opportunity to talk about the complexities of our unique relationships is very exciting to me. So thank you for the invitation.

Yeah, you've kind of become a guru on the topic of friendships. You're the director of Women's Relational Health Institute. You have a podcast called Friend Forward.

You're often a guest on different, you know, news and TV shows talking about friendship. You're the author of Fighting for Our Friendships. And I thought, let's come out of the gate with why are friendships worth fighting for? Yeah.

I think a lot of us know intellectually that they matter because they feel good. And sometimes it's just something that's hard to put into words.

But when it comes from the academic research that supports that, I always say there's just way too much research drawing a direct connection between, between the quality of your relationships and your physical, mental, and emotional well being.

And so for everything from decreasing your risk of heart disease, which is the number one killer of women in America, it's decreasing that by 30%, your longevity, your memory, decreasing chances for stroke and dementia. I mean, there are just so many things in, in which we' see benefits for having quality friendships.

And so I think that this should rise to the top of the conversations we're having. The same way we're talking about professional development or our romantic interests.

You know, I think it's true. You said they just feel good, and I think we know that.

I think we long for friendships, and yet a lot of us have experienced brokenness and wounded woundedness in friendship.

So, you know, when you think about women listening who are like, man, friendships have kind of exhausted me or stolen from me or broken me in ways where I'm having a hard time trusting again, what's your best advice for them?

I think that people might often find themselves discouraged from friendships due to having certain expectations broken. But it's because people are broken. And I hope that doesn't sound like a dismissive remark, but we are a broken people.

And so there probably is a good chance that there's been somebody in your life who once played a very intimate role in your life who let you down in some way, because that's what people do. Now.

I do think it could be something that, you know, reading certain books and learning certain skills can kind of help you to start to know and clarify what to look for and how to show up. Right. Because sometimes it's how we show up and the demands that we make.

And if it's really severe, talking to a mental health professional to help you kind of gauge how to trust again when you're kind of scared of. Of exercising and looking for an identifying safety again. But I just. I totally acknowledge the depth of that kind of pain.

But I do believe that the most critical mistake that a woman could make is to write off friendships because she's been hurt. Because many will find that often the source of their hurt is also the source of their healing.

Hmm. You mentioned expectations. Are we expecting too much in friendships or what are reasonable, healthy expectations?

That's a great question.

I think one of the trickiest things about friendship is unlike other relational contexts, like a employer employee relationship or a monogamous romantic relationship, you kind of know what the terms and conditions are when you sign up. But for friendship, I mean, there's so much ambiguity. I often joke that sometimes we don't even know if we are friends.

Like, you know that you went to coffee with her a couple times, but can you really call her a friend yet?

So there's so much that we don't really know, and people are walking around with different definitions of what friendship is and what they believe friendship owes them.

So I don't know how to tell you what you can reasonably expect, But I can tell you that the research says that women tend to have higher expectations than men in of their close relationships, both platonic and romantic. The misstep I see here is that we often have higher expectations and they often go uncommunicated. That is the part where I see the biggest gap and.

And I struggle with that too.

You know, I'm not walking around with my list of demands, But I think the issue is that for women specifically, we sometimes believe that we shouldn't have to say it because you should know. And if you were a good friend, and if you knew me well, I wouldn't have to say it. So you being able to read my mind is evidence of our intimacy.

And so there's a part of us that believes if I say the thing, then you were not really close, if I have to say it because it should be obvious. And so I think when that kind of compounds the issue of having your needs go unmet. But I'll end with this.

I know for me, I often say I feel instant trust with women who tell me what they expect and not like they're opening up their notes app and reading all the rules, but it's less guesswork. And I know you're giving me the data on how to love you well, so please tell me that certain phrases offend you.

Please tell me that you like support in this kind of way, because as a friend, who cares, I would like that intel. Right. So I think that that's something that we have to consistently grapple with.

You talk a lot about how disagreement doesn't mean that disconnection. Disagreement doesn't mean disconnection. Talk to us about that.

Yeah. So for women, specifically, because that's my area of expertise is women's conflict and cooperation. Symmetry is something we really prioritize.

And so sometimes when there is asymmetry, we might find ourselves questioning the friendship overall. We're questioning if it was ever really real. We're questioning all these things.

And so I think we might have to be very intentional about creating holding space for there to be tension, sometimes friction, for her to see the world in a way that maybe I don't, especially if it's not in a way that's compromising, you know, making me compromise my values and things like that. But the research finds that on the other side of healthy conflict, people report feeling closer to one another.

And so I know that we like to use the word vulnerability, but I've noticed that a lot of us conjure up an image of, like, crying and talking about our, like, childhood trauma, and that counts, too. But another thing that is very darn difficult and vulnerable is addressing an issue with somebody.

There's the risk you're going to misunderstand me, that you're going to get mad, that you're going to go and tell our mutual friends, and now it's a whole thing at church. So that is risky, too. But if we get it right, it actually functions to bring us closer to one another.

So I think it's worth kind of looking at the positive sides as well.

I absolutely believe that, and I've experienced that. And yet it always feels scary.

I mean, I can even think of an example right now in my own life where, man, you know, I probably should have a conversation with this person. But you're like, oh, exactly, all the things you listed.

Is she going to go talk to so and so and so and so, and is it going to create more conflict and you just kind of sweep it under the rug. But what does sweeping it under the rug do over time?

Absolutely.

And we often encourage women, like when I'm working with the client, we just look at things just factually and we look at, okay, what are the pros and cons of addressing it and the pros and cons of stinks. And I mean, that feels like a very pedestrian exercise, but it is very revealing.

And so perhaps the short term benefit is you're avoiding being misunderstood or having someone mad at you. Sure. But I also see you fussing about it every day to your husband. I also see you being anxious whenever her name pops up when she texts you.

I also see you starting to be a little passive aggressive and curt with your responses to her and that's out of your character. I also see you talking about how it makes you feel, you know, anxious or you feel a little resentful during your hangouts.

And so to me, that cost is too great and I might as well bring it up in a loving way that continues to affirm the relationship to see if we can go there and bring it up as a win win. Because she'll either say, oh my gosh, I had no idea that disturbed you. Wow, thank you for telling me.

And now I see, wow, I'm safer emotionally to tell her how I feel or she will show me I am not safe too. And at that point I have an opportunity to do with that data as I will.

Yeah, and I love that too. I've always talked to my daughter about that. Like, you need to download the information that this friend is giving you.

Like if they weren't safe, if they didn't treat you well over time, download the information, don't just keep experiencing it and not do anything with it. So let's talk. You mentioned healthy conflict.

I think a lot of us haven't been coached how to have healthy conflict, nor did we grow up in homes where there was healthy conflict, either homes that ignored conflict or, you know, it was an all out fight fest or whatever. So we don't necessarily have tools in our toolkit to know how to go and have a hard conversation with a friend. What's your like, top three?

Like definitely top three advice when you go to have healthy Conflict with someone. Do this. And top three, don't do this.

Yeah.

So first, let me make sure we have a shared understanding, because I know when we hear certain words, people are thinking of different things in their mind. Right.

So for some of us, we hear the word conflict, and our brain just thought of an image of one of the Real Housewives reunions where there was, like, cursing and table, and we're like, oh, I don't do conflict. You know, And I simply mean there's two women who have their individual goals, preferences, and backgrounds.

And at some point in the relationship, there's going to be a conflict of interest. Now we've got to get to the business of figuring out how we navigate this and moving forward. That's all.

I mean, and so healthy conflict is anything that's making the problem smaller. And we've heard this before, it's me and you against the problem.

Unhealthy conflict is anything that's making the problem bigger and it is harder to reconcile.

So some healthy conflict things might be, we're having a conversation and both parties get to voice their opinion, or people are taking ownership over how they contributed to the problem. Unhealthy is. I'm talking to everybody else except for the person.

I am delaying reconciliation by giving you the silent treatment because I want to punish you. We don't want to admit that, but I'm trying to hurt you a little bit because you hurt me. What are we doing here? You know?

So, again, I love that you said some of us haven't had that modeled in the home. And I certainly don't want to position this as a. A bad guy thing. Sometimes we're just not equipped, you know, I.

You know, when I was growing up in my home, you know, we didn't really have a conversation around things. Sometimes my mom would just.

And she meant well, you know, but she would, like, type out or write out her issues and slide it under the door, you know, and so then it's just tents in the house. And, you know, we've definitely grown since then. I love the way that my mom has grown and taught me how to grow. But, you know, so I remember it was.

I was in college the first time a roommate came up to me and said, hey, I'm really sorry for what I said yesterday. That was not okay. And I just wanted you to know that I feel badly about that. I'm going to try to do better. It blew my mind. It blew my mind.

I never had anybody talk to me like that. And so you're Right. I think it's a skill for sure that can be learned. But we have to ask ourselves, if what is what I'm doing?

Making things smaller or bigger?

I love that. That's so measurable to me. Like, it just makes sense. What are the most common causes to friendship breakups?

Well, there are many. First, I want to say a lot of friendships dissolve, and it's due to no fault of one person or the other.

There wasn't an egregious betrayal and this huge blow up.

A lot of friendships end because your circumstances changed and you were work friends and you stopped working there and you saw her less and she doesn't live close. So a lot of friendships end that way.

But when we're thinking about the ones that feel a little more explicit and sticky, one of the top complaints I hear is I was the one doing all the work. It's always me initiating. Oh, my gosh, I get that all the time.

And for women, there are three things that I have identified as the root of our conflicts to just really simplify it. And I call this the three affinities of female friendship.

So the three things that we tend to prioritize in our relationships, according to the research, is symmetry, secrecy, and support. As soon as you feel like one of those things is missing or imbalanced, there's probably going to be an issue.

I'm not saying that this spells the end of the friendship, but I'm certainly saying that it's an indicator that it's time to recalibrate. So symmetry is when we feel like we have a lot in common and we are peers, we are equals.

So some examples of friction might be when she starts to get a little judgmental of my parenting. And she's made a couple comments because that shows she's positioning herself as higher than me.

And we're supposed to be peers here on the same level, whereas men can tolerate some hierarchies in their social circles. But we like to be very have egalitarianism. So feeling similar is very important. Then support.

Well, the research tells us that emotional support is the number one thing women look for. But what's the issue? We mentioned this earlier. I'm not going to communicate my expectations because you should know.

And I also don't want to be perceived as being demanding or difficult. So I'm just going to try to, like, give you signals. Right. That's a big one. And finally, secrecy.

And this doesn't refer to literal secrets, but the essence of that. So we do like feeling like we're in this exclusive vault, it's just me and you. And in the vault, we engage in mutual self disclosure.

I share, you share. And you know how I know that that's real?

Because how many times have you been discouraged because you feel like you're the only one sharing in the vault, she's not contributing equally, or when she takes what you shared outside of the ball, or if she's telling somebody else about her pregnancy or health scare or divorce instead of you, she's allowed to, but you're going to feel a little pinch and you're going to question your closeness and you're going to question whether or not she trusts you. And so whenever one of these three things I found is disrupted, that is the root of a lot of our conflict between women.

Hmm. When we start to see some of these things sneaking up in a relationship, what should we do?

I mean, this is all tried and true, but talking about it really helps. And also regulating yourself.

And again, I know that's like a buzzword of self regulate, but when I read a popular study about regulation, it said that it comprises two things. One is how you perceive a situation, and the second is how you respond. And this is where it's outside of my scope.

And maybe a mental health professional can help in better ways, but you really got to attack that perceived part because there's a lot of us due to some childhood stuff, maybe we perceive everything as an attack. We perceive everything as a, as a, as a dig. We perceive everything as shade.

If everything is a slight or they were rejecting me or leaving me out, that is going to color all of my relationships. I'm just going to speak very frankly here. Okay? And then how I respond, do I respond with silent treatment?

Flipping out a little bit, making little passive aggressive remarks? So that is really helpful.

And having conversations are helpful because I've once heard it said that friendships are the most ambiguous relationship you'll ever have. So one of our priorities in these relationships should be to reduce the ambiguity as much as possible. You don't know what she meant by that text. Ask.

You don't know why these girls have gone to coffee without you for the fourth time, even though you're in the group chat as well.

Ask.

And I know for some that feels really cringey, but to even say like, hey, I know I saw that you guys went to XYZ Cafe last week. I've been dying to go there. I would love to join you next time. Unless it's more of kind of like a, an exclusive thing. You Let me know.

But at least I can say I let them know. And they can say, oh, my God, we didn't even think you'd be into it. You said you hated coffee. Ah, that makes sense.

Okay, you're right, you know, but I need to reduce ambiguity as much as possible.

Can we talk, Danielle, a little bit? I. I am releasing a book this year called Collide and talking about these wounds that we have in our wounds collide with other wounded people.

And we can often create more woundedness, more brokenness rather than more healing. But the more healing we get when we collide with people, we can bring healing.

And so I have a chapter in here about a friendship breakup and exactly what you're talking about, where I brought in a belief about myself that tainted the entire experience. And I'm sure she brought some stuff to the table too.

But what's your advice for those of us who maybe aren't recognizing what we're bringing into these collisions that happen with friendships?

That's a great question. I think one thing that could be helpful from a faith based perspective is sometimes during prayer or reading is that's, that's, that's prayer worthy.

Because I've heard a lot of people who feel like friendship is not a prayer worthy thing. It should be something that just happens naturally. But it is prayer worthy to say to the Lord, lord, can you reveal to me areas where I need to grow?

Can you show me my blind spots? Can you bring people into my life who helped reveal to me my sensitivities and complexes? Because you're right, healing does happen in community.

I know sometimes people like to say, well, I'm, I'm in my solo era because I need to go heal.

But it happens among other people because things are brought out when we're kind of bumping up against each other, or they can reveal to me my positives too. You know, I've had friends speak life into me over things that I did not see in myself.

And they're like, why, why are you talking down about yourself like that?

And I didn't realize I was doing that, you know, and so I think it's, it's totally worthwhile to ask the Lord to reveal to you areas where you can, like, tend to your, like, friendship garden and how he can bring in new things to plan into the friendship garden and entrust him with that. I think you could also ask people who know you well to give you some insights.

And you have to have a little thick skin here, but you can ask people you trust, like hey, what are my blind spots? Like, what is something that you feel like other people might be thinking but not telling me?

You know, that's something I'd be comfortable asking my husband.

But you can ask the people in relationship with you what you can do better or what's something that they would want to say to you but feel like they couldn't because you're going to be overly sensitive. So there are tangible things we can do to start to learn more about ourselves and by extension, improve our relationships.

I love that, and I totally agree. I'm curious, when is it okay to let go of a friendship? To stop fighting? Yeah.

So there are so many signs. I know. I often joke that we all like our checklists. I know. I do, too.

So that I can, like, look at my list and be like, oh, she's got eight out of ten. You gotta go, girl. But a couple ones that I think are pretty unequivocal. One is, look at the reasons you're staying.

I know a lot of women will stay because they're like, well, you know, we've been friends 20 years, and even though she's constantly putting me down and, you know, kind of sabotaging my successes, I mean, I know her 20 years. I think that's something worth looking at. I think that's interesting.

Any relationship where you feel like there are going to be consequences for showing up authentically, whether that's with certain positions that you have that might not be popular or preferences that you have, you've been diluting them, silencing them, because you feel like they're going to be consequences here. I think that's something worth looking at.

And then anything where there's a lack of trust involved, because I think we'd all agree that's fundamental. And for me personally, it is too much mental labor.

It really is to measure my words and to think through, like, what I'm going to share and what I'm not, because I don't know if she's going to. We're doing too much.

So anything where I feel like I cannot trust this person, maybe it's not a cutoff, but maybe it's, I need to rethink the way degree to which I'm integrating this person into my life.

So maybe we only see each other on Sundays and I'm civil, or maybe we see each other in group settings and the conversation is superficial, but I'm going to show up differently because there's a lack of trust here. I think those are a couple unequivocal signs. That it might be time to turn your attention and resources toward other relationships.

I am curious, and maybe it's because I'm in my early 50s now, but I have never been here before. And so it's much different.

The friendships are much different than maybe in my 20s where I have relationships with women I've journeyed with over the long haul.

So, like, we met before kids, we've done the parenting thing, now the empty nester thing, or they've gone through a divorce or career change or move to another city. Like the long haul relationships,.

What do.

You have to be prepared for? Because it just seems like the seasons, a woman, specifically, even more than a man, goes through shifts so much.

And how do those shifting seasons and life changes impact friendship? And how can we almost expect it instead of be surprised by how it might impact our friendship with someone?

That's a terrific question.

I recently read a book about this written by a male, and he was arguing that women experiences experience more changes than men because of our environment. And generationally, he's saying, like, just women working outside of the workplace. And now, you know, we're balancing home life and work life.

Just so many things that have changed. And then biologically, in our bodies, things are happening which affect how I show up if I'm irritable and things like that.

Oh, yeah, you know what I mean?

You're like, girl, these are just hormones. And so there are so many things that fluctuate. And you're right, it can be really tough holding on to friendships.

And again, I think intellectually we know that friendships change. We all say that. We say that to our kids, you know, but when it happens, man, is that hard.

During these transitions, I think there are a couple things that can help us salvage or rather preserve the relationship.

The first is creativity, which sounds really simple, but I recently talked to a creative health scientist who was saying that creativity is simply asking what if? And then doing what is necessary to bring that idea into the material world.

And for a lot of us, we been doing the same thing for 10 years, whether socially, how we hang out, what we talk about. And now things have shifted and that's not working anymore. So we'll go straight to like, man, well, I guess this friendship's over.

I mean, it's not like it used to be.

Instead of, okay, we've never been here before as friends, what could it look like to have, like, Thursday afternoon hangouts instead of Saturday late night hangouts? What could it look like to so being experimental with what it could look like instead of using the default you've been using for 10 years.

This new season might require you to do something new.

I recently posted about how, you know, my kids are 7 and 4 and I feel like I work a second shift because while others are winding down at 4pm I'm gearing up for second shifts. I can't do the phone and texting in the evenings.

I'm not saying I ignore it, but I've had to let friends know I'm tapped out and I'm with two kids trying to regulate their emotions for five hours a day. And so that affects my friendships, the energy I bring, what I can remember and I've had to communicate that to them.

So we've had to be creative around how we can connect because the relationship's important to us. And then the second thing I would say is courage. So These are the three Cs creativity, courage.

There might be certain needs you have and it feels risky to say hey, I need help with this or I need your understanding with this because my life is looking different now and to say that and then the third C is just communicating. What do you need? What are some new things you want to try instead of assuming? Well, you know, this is her life now. I guess she's got no time for me.

You know, she got remarried and haven't seen her. So I guess, I guess that's what it is. No, have a conversation. Hey, I miss you. I love that you're booed up right now. Love that for you.

But I miss our girls nights. Can we see each other like every first Friday?

That's what I'm doing instead of yeah, well I don't hear from her so there goes that 20 year relationship. So I think just kind of being creative and communicative could be something that helps to preserve the relationships we value most.

So much wisdom. Danielle, I'm you're bringing up assumptions. The danger of assumptions. Tell us what those can do in relationship and how to even recognize.

Because I think sometimes a lot of times we are making assumptions and we don't even realize we are totally okay.

So here's my theory on this. I don't know the research on this.

My theory is that one because we know each other so well as friends, we almost get less curious because it's like, oh, I know you. I know exactly why you said that. I know exactly what. And so it's like maybe I don't. So I am operating according to the script that I've made for you.

I haven't even invited you to the conversation. And the second theory I have is that because they tend to say that women have this sixth sense, I assume you should just pick up on what's going on.

Like, as a woman, I mean, you should know. You should know, you know, and it's like, she doesn't know. And if you think about it, we don't do that in any other relational context.

Like, with your boss, you're having a performance review for them to communicate how you need to improve with your husband. You have total permission to say, babe, we're just. I'm not feeling connected lately. Like, can we talk about this with your kids?

You're having a conversation. It is with friends where we expect that we should not have to say it. And it's just, to some extent, it's not fair.

And so I think a lot of us are walking around thinking we're doing a good job of offering support. None of us thinks we're doing an inadequate job. So you would have to communicate what you need because.

And this is unsurprising, and I'll end with this. The research finds that people who ask for help are more likely to get help than people who don't ask. I mean, which is obvious.

But if you have needs, but you're like, I'm not going to communicate them, it just doesn't make sense. I understand the fear, but it just doesn't make sense.

Talk to us about the whole too I'm too much, you're not enough sort of thing that goes back and forth between two friends where maybe one friend is made to feel like they're too much because the other friend just has lower expectations of what they're looking for, a friendship. And so that friend feels like they're not enough to the friend who feels like they're too much. Like, how do. How do two people get out of.

That whole thing, oh, I love you speaking to that people don't. I haven't really heard that question much, but you're absolutely right. Yeah.

It's so tricky because I think it goes back to us talking about how friendship itself is so just kind of elusive in terms of. Or subjective, like what it is to different people and what you expect.

So maybe to me, friendship is like, well, yeah, you check in every day, you talk about your life and to others, their friendship goal is, I want somebody to do things with. And I'm just trying to have a good time. I'm not trying to have a deep conversation all the time.

So even what we're expecting out of friendship is Different. And I often say this, and maybe it's not popular, or maybe it feels very sterile and we want to talk about friendship in a fluffy way.

But a lot of it is not about who you like, although you want to like your friends. But it's not just about finding people who like each other. It's also about compatibility and, like, our friendship styles.

Because if I find that I really do like physically getting together in person, and this person is really okay with, like, memes every now and then, and that is her way of showing, like, I'm thinking about you. Look, I know that you would appreciate this. It's not enough for me, and I'm dissatisfied.

Well, first, I'm going to try to mediate the gap by saying, like, hey, I want to spend more time with you. Like, I like weekend hangouts. And if we're like, yeah, I don't know, I just. I'm so busy.

I just, you know, I can definitely text, but, yeah, I can't get together a lot. I have a decision to make.

I can either adjust my expectations, but if I find I'm growing resentful, I am dissatisfied, well, then I might need to look elsewhere. Not cutting her off, but kind of supplementing that relationship with people who can get together in person.

So sometimes it's not a matter of a lack of affection for one another, sometimes in spite of our history with one another, but it's our friendship style that's not allowing a certain flow and satisfaction, and we do kind of have to look at that.

Is there a best friend myth, though, this kind of idea that we saw in movies and TV shows and whatever?

Like, there's one person who's supposed to fulfill all of our sort of, like, friendship dreams rather than recognizing that everyone brings different things to the table. Yeah.

So I love the. The best friend picture. You know, I think it's really sweet. I do. The latest data shows that 40% of adults say that they don't have one.

And I have seen ways in which even having one has been difficult for some people. So not having one, but also having one.

So, for example, if you have a best friend, I've seen in some situations where it can put a lot of pressure on the best friend. Because I want you to understand my difficulties in parenting and marriage and health and my interests and my hobbies, and they keep falling short.

And maybe it's because I need an array people. So I understand it very, like, literally, like, if you have 10 friends and this woman's the best one that you've Got. And that's your best friend.

Like, that makes total sense. And I've even heard some people say that best friend is a tear for them. It's not a person. I like that imagery too.

But the research supports something called relational diversity. And they find that people who have relational diversity are happier, healthier people.

So this means the people who are your, your gym friend, your church friend, your work friend, that woman is happier and healthier than the woman who only has the church friends or the gym friends, because you have a lot of different needs. And so you need relationships that satisfy a lot of different social roles.

And so if you are happening to get a lot of needs met through one person, there's nothing wrong with that. I think that's great.

But I also think that if you don't have that and you yearn for that, focus instead on how you can get your needs met through the collective. So do I have a place to go where I'm just like belly laughing? Do I have a place to go where I can speak about my spiritual needs and.

And strongholds and this person just gets it? Do I have a woman who just kind of shares my interests and we can geek out about this very niche thing?

If I'm getting that from the collective, I might find that it's satisfying.

If I'm lacking intimacy and that's what I'm craving, then I need to get to the business of figuring out how to move some of these acquaintances to another layer of depth. But in terms of getting all the needs from one person, I think it's beautiful when some women have that.

But I also don't think a woman is behind if she doesn't.

So for women listening, who are just feeling this great sense that they need to begin to develop some new friendships, what's your best advice for them?

To prioritize connection over friendship.

And as a person who studies friendship, that might sound odd coming from me, but I've noticed that when people are so focused on friend making, it's like this capital G goal that they're carrying. So every person they meet, they're kind of secretly auditioning. And if we don't click right away, you're like, oh, I don't know, she doesn't.

She's not as integrated anatomy as I am. So, like, I can't click with a person. Doesn't get it, you know, so whatever it is.

And then we feel disappointed and we go and try with the next person and disappointed instead.

I think if you can prioritize connection, so social interactions and plugging in and conversations with people and saying, that's going to be top, top, top of mind for me. Because a woman who prioritizes that friendship is a natural byproduct of that to the very.

So the main thing I would say for women trying to make friends is to first look at something called the five, three, one framework. And this was developed by social scientist Kasley Killam.

And she found that socially healthy people, people who are living long and they're happy, they have these habits in their social life. Five stands for five different kinds of people you're interacting with every week.

So that goes to that relational diversity people piece we talked about. So maybe my husband, my neighbors, my church friends, the pta like five different groups a week.

Three is you're maintaining three close friendships at any given time. And the one stands for one hour of social connection a day. I like to have women start there. Look at your 5, 3, 1. How's that going?

And that helps to offer direction for how you might move your feet to start forming friendships.

Danielle, you have so much wisdom in this area, and I'm so grateful that God is using you in the world to increase the connectivity in our lives and the health and our friendships. I appreciate you so much. And I know there's women who are going to want to get a hold of your book, your podcast, all the things.

How can they do that?

Yeah, everything lives atbetter female friendships dot com. And the main goal there is just to help women feel more satisfied, satisfied in their female friendships.

And I know that looks different for everyone, but we are here to be a resource and we really prioritize making the data feel really accessible.

Because I believe that, you know, and I don't get to speak about my faith often, but I do believe that is God's goal for us, is community, like to be connected to his people. And it is deeply disheartening for me to see so much content from people talking about how they've tried and it didn't go well.

So they're going to be alone. How they don't need others, how all they need is the Lord. They don't need anybody else. And that is a lie.

And yes, all you need is Jesus, but you need his people. And so I understand the hurt, but there are so many beautiful things in community and relationship.

And I would just encourage the woman who feels defeated, who feels behind, who feels unlovable. I would encourage her to pray about the Lord, making her heart tender and open to relationships with his people because it's worth it.

Good word. Thank you so much, Danielle, for being with us today.

Thank you so much for having me.

Friend.

I hope you loved that interview and that some of the things that Danielle shared you put in your back pocket and take that wisdom and live into it in your relationships.

And in fact, if you think of a friend who could be blessed by this conversation, you could simply share it with her and tell her you're grateful for your friendship with her and this conversation will grow her and her life and encourage her as well. So that that simple share would be amazing. I hope you keep colliding and we'll catch you next week.