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02 - How DAOs Will (Re)Shape Research Organizations
Episode 210th December 2021 • GreenBook Podcast • GreenBook
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In this episode, GreenBook's host, Lenny Murphy is joined by Dave Carruthers, Founder of Voxpopme, and Andrew Konya, Co-Founder of Remesh to discuss how Decentralized Autonomous Organizations (DAO) will open up opportunities for new business models, create shared value for consumers and brands, and shape the future of research organizations.

Links From The Show:

  • GreenBook --> https://greenbook.captivate.fm/podcast
  • Lenny Murphy --> https://greenbook.captivate.fm/lenny
  • Dave Carruthers --> https://greenbook.captivate.fm/dave
  • Voxpopme --> https://greenbook.captivate.fm/voxpopme
  • Andrew Konya --> https://greenbook.captivate.fm/andrew
  • Remesh --> https://greenbook.captivate.fm/remesh
  • GRIT Report --> https://greenbook.captivate.fm/grit
  • Discord --> https://greenbook.captivate.fm/discord

Many thanks to our guests, Dave and Andrew. Thanks also to Emily Fullmer, for producing and editing this episode.

Transcripts

Lenny Murphy:

Hello everybody.

Lenny Murphy:

This is Lenny Murphy.

Lenny Murphy:

And welcome to episode two of the Greenberg podcast.

Lenny Murphy:

Today we are discussing how DAOs will shape research organizations.

Lenny Murphy:

And if you don't know what a DAO is, well, we're about to

Lenny Murphy:

find out because my two guests.

Lenny Murphy:

Are deeply exploring this and they're going to educate all

Lenny Murphy:

of us as we go through this.

Lenny Murphy:

So first welcoming Dave Carruthers.

Lenny Murphy:

He is the founder and CEO of Voxpopme.

Lenny Murphy:

He is also a hell of a personal inspiration because he tackled keto

Lenny Murphy:

before I did and became a boxer, which I was never brave enough to do so, Dave,

Dave Carruthers:

welcome.

Dave Carruthers:

Thanks.

Dave Carruthers:

Not only looking forward to.

Lenny Murphy:

I am as well.

Lenny Murphy:

And then Andrew Konya the, the only real genius, I think I know

Lenny Murphy:

I, lots of smart people, but.

Lenny Murphy:

The different level.

Lenny Murphy:

So, Andrew is the CEO and co-founder of Remesh in New York

Lenny Murphy:

city-based startup software company.

Lenny Murphy:

Andrew.

Lenny Murphy:

Welcome.

Lenny Murphy:

Thank you, Lenny.

Lenny Murphy:

Pleasure to be here.

Lenny Murphy:

Good, good to have you.

Lenny Murphy:

All right, so guys, DAOs I suspect that it's a term that's been around for a

Lenny Murphy:

while, but not everybody is aware of that.

Lenny Murphy:

So let's go back to basics.

Lenny Murphy:

What is a DAO.

Lenny Murphy:

Why don't we start with things.

Lenny Murphy:

I know you've, I've also followed all your adventures in in

Lenny Murphy:

crypto over the years as well.

Lenny Murphy:

So yeah,

Dave Carruthers:

I think the best way to think of a DAO is really

Dave Carruthers:

a new way of organizing people.

Dave Carruthers:

Traditionally that the kind of company organizational

Dave Carruthers:

structure , has been a way to.

Dave Carruthers:

Calais and collect kind of talent in pursuit, of a shared goal.

Dave Carruthers:

And I think a Dyer has , a similar objective but it's all geared

Dave Carruthers:

towards the shared purpose and the creation of value a much more shared

Dave Carruthers:

value across the participants.

Dave Carruthers:

So, democratization is a big part of this aligned all parties, to participate and

Dave Carruthers:

that decentralized framework enabled.

Dave Carruthers:

Workers users, stakeholders to really have true ownership.

Dave Carruthers:

And I think, we've seen this in the startup culture and, many companies

Dave Carruthers:

in the space, issue options to employees and things like that at

Dave Carruthers:

an early stage, but historically companies haven't, always done that.

Dave Carruthers:

Trying to find consensus aligned all pies, to play a role in whether

Dave Carruthers:

where the project goes or where the organization goes is incredible.

Dave Carruthers:

We're still extremely early in the dive space.

Dave Carruthers:

But when you look at some of the interesting projects, so the starting

Dave Carruthers:

to launch, we'll talk about them a little bit later, there's just so many.

Dave Carruthers:

Industries and verticals that have been disrupted by this and really looking

Dave Carruthers:

forward to digging in on what the impact is on the research industry.

Lenny Murphy:

Okay.

Lenny Murphy:

So Andrew, so think about, the work within rematch, which I would broadly

Lenny Murphy:

characterize as bringing in together, large groups of people on a topic and

Lenny Murphy:

getting that information condensed so that a moderator could respond to that quickly.

Lenny Murphy:

I would imagine that the interest in the Dao is another application.

Lenny Murphy:

The crowdsourcing, if you will, a process of getting alignment

Lenny Murphy:

around ideas and early ideation is that accurate and is that kind of

Lenny Murphy:

how you've been thinking about it?

Andrew Konya:

Yeah

Andrew Konya:

I and I think what's cool about it is that it changes the structure of trust That's

Andrew Konya:

a combination of determining government decisions, determining where money flows.

Andrew Konya:

And all of the soft power of determining like culture largely that is, maybe with

Andrew Konya:

the exception of culture it's centralized.

Andrew Konya:

We designed them, the us government was designed, Dave and I run companies.

Andrew Konya:

We've designed this, we create this organizational structure, and then in

Andrew Konya:

those designed trust is founded on, I don't want to say weak rounds, but,

Andrew Konya:

uh, not super strong grounds, right?

Andrew Konya:

Trust, uh, in the value of a company or what you're going to get is.

Andrew Konya:

Paperwork legal system, and your trust that your employer will follow

Andrew Konya:

through on something that government will fall through on something, the

Andrew Konya:

currency that they're paying you and will have value into the future.

Andrew Konya:

And I think like the foundations of all of those trust, , are like compound

Andrew Konya:

usually up to, some central place.

Andrew Konya:

Um, I think that promise of a Dow, uh, is that you can.

Andrew Konya:

Have trust in a way that it, or trust in an algorithm or trust in a system that

Andrew Konya:

is much more objective and not founded on paperwork, legal structures, governments,

Andrew Konya:

and things like that, combined with the ability for it to emerge.

Andrew Konya:

It does not require a person who is actually designing from the top down.

Andrew Konya:

It requires only a direction, even loosely specified that it's aligning and then

Andrew Konya:

what can emerge out of it, uh, is the consistent steering of that direction.

Andrew Konya:

And so with the lens that a Dow is just an.

Andrew Konya:

Collectively intelligent community that determines the direction and

Andrew Konya:

can real time steer that direction.

Andrew Konya:

They want to go.

Andrew Konya:

And, uh, I think of Remesh, uh, as the ones we view it through, uh, is simply as

Andrew Konya:

a way to have a conversation with a doubt.

Andrew Konya:

If you have a collectively intelligent community that is out there, Steer

Andrew Konya:

an increasingly large fraction of where we go into the future.

Andrew Konya:

Then it feels reasonable that you would want to have a conversation with it.

Andrew Konya:

Uh, and so in the same way, right now, you think through a research lens, you wanna

Andrew Konya:

have a conversation with the population to understand them and inform them, some type

Andrew Konya:

of decision, like what they're going to buy with a, those folks help potentially

Andrew Konya:

even more leverage around the future.

Andrew Konya:

Uh, Talking to it, uh, as a, an organism in and of itself, I think is

Andrew Konya:

what's most interesting now, as David mentioned, there's a long tail of other

Andrew Konya:

interesting things there, but yeah,

Dave Carruthers:

yeah.

Dave Carruthers:

I think, uh,

Dave Carruthers:

when I think about it, I think there's two key traits, of a dag.

Dave Carruthers:

One is the participants are acting like.

Dave Carruthers:

And the second is radical transparency.

Dave Carruthers:

The fact that the actions of a dire, you know, appear on a blockchain

Dave Carruthers:

that are immutable and visible to the world I think , is a key part of that.

Dave Carruthers:

But I also think we also early in this, that if you ask people to classify what.

Dave Carruthers:

You'd get a lot of different answers, right?

Dave Carruthers:

Some people might tell you it's a discord with a shared bank account.

Dave Carruthers:

Others might categorize it as a community with distributed ownership.

Dave Carruthers:

Some might just call it a vibe, something they want to be able to be a part of.

Dave Carruthers:

You know what I mean?

Dave Carruthers:

It's it's, it's still very fluid at this time.

Lenny Murphy:

So let's talk about that current state and kind of get

Lenny Murphy:

into the, the pragmatic aspects.

Lenny Murphy:

So, you know, it is early and there's a lot, I'll throw it in

Lenny Murphy:

my head on how we think about the applications in the future.

Lenny Murphy:

But uh, if somebody wants to create a Dow today for whatever purpose do you

Lenny Murphy:

know, discuss what have Thanksgiving dinner, radical transparency,

Lenny Murphy:

everybody contributing ideas.

Lenny Murphy:

How would you do it?

Lenny Murphy:

How is it happening?

Dave Carruthers:

I think like many things that are in, the early adoption

Dave Carruthers:

phases, , the tooling to create and support Daz is constantly evolving.

Dave Carruthers:

And, there's essentially multiple.

Dave Carruthers:

Tools available for kind of each stage of, data creation and formation.

Dave Carruthers:

So you've got tools like Oregon syndicated Orca that allow you to

Dave Carruthers:

essentially you know, Real-world equivalent is Stripe Atlas, right?

Dave Carruthers:

You go onto Stripe.

Dave Carruthers:

They'll do all the legal docs.

Dave Carruthers:

They'll set you up for Delaware, LLC, et cetera, et cetera.

Dave Carruthers:

These tools essentially handle things like membership management,

Dave Carruthers:

treasury tooling, infrastructure for governance and things like that.

Dave Carruthers:

So, you know, it's, there's multiple tools available there.

Dave Carruthers:

When you think about the communication layer of the

Dave Carruthers:

business, discord has become the de.

Dave Carruthers:

Kind of communication tool of choice, you know, instead of a discord server

Dave Carruthers:

bunch of different channels for all kinds of interactions, whether it

Dave Carruthers:

be product engineering, marketing.

Dave Carruthers:

And that's the thing about the dive.

Dave Carruthers:

When people join the data, they're looking, what, how can

Dave Carruthers:

I add value to this product and how can I add to this community?

Dave Carruthers:

And, you know, we can talk about competence.

Dave Carruthers:

Compensation how they they're awarded for that.

Dave Carruthers:

And then yeah, things like coordination voting, you know, this, this is

Dave Carruthers:

essentially a whole ecosystem of tools which is, you know still, probably.

Dave Carruthers:

A hundred hundred and 20 companies in that ecosystem today, which, you know,

Dave Carruthers:

when you think about the, the grit reports kind of a logo ecosystem island, , I

Dave Carruthers:

imagine the dairy ecosystem map will look very similar to that in five years,

Dave Carruthers:

time as more and more, tools commands.

Dave Carruthers:

So, yeah, I think there's, there's a lot of tooling that's out there.

Dave Carruthers:

But at the moment it's still very much kind of like a.

Dave Carruthers:

Duct tape in a few things together to, figure that out.

Dave Carruthers:

But that talks to the scrappy ness and, the nature of, bringing

Dave Carruthers:

all of these disparate parties together amongst that shared vision.

Andrew Konya:

thing I

Andrew Konya:

want you to

Andrew Konya:

double click on, you know, to their dividend thing,

Andrew Konya:

the beauty of Dow's and almost all flavors, whether it's the Vive

Andrew Konya:

version or the like collectively and investing version and that is.

Andrew Konya:

It is an alignment machine where by you joining you, get you share

Andrew Konya:

in the value that's created.

Andrew Konya:

And thus you are incentivized to create value in generally the

Andrew Konya:

constant pattern you see wrapped around them is nonlinear value.

Andrew Konya:

Meaning when you add one more person when you add the 10th person, you've not

Andrew Konya:

just increased the value by one night.

Andrew Konya:

It's, you know, you get a one plus one equals 10 type

Andrew Konya:

effect where it's compounding.

Andrew Konya:

So if you plotted like the value of a doubt proportional to the

Andrew Konya:

amount of people, you would expect it not to be aligned, but something

Andrew Konya:

that looked much more exponential.

Andrew Konya:

And I think that whether that line might be vibe that you're putting

Andrew Konya:

right more people just compounds the vibe or compounds the actual

Andrew Konya:

value measured in units of pick your, pick your stable currency.

Andrew Konya:

You trust, I trust Juul, but that's what

Lenny Murphy:

you might actually think of it in.

Lenny Murphy:

All right.

Lenny Murphy:

So Let's let's step back for a minute and then start thinking about framing

Lenny Murphy:

this up with the research space.

Lenny Murphy:

from an evolutionary perspective, the the standard research tool where a doubt

Lenny Murphy:

could fit into it would be a committee.

Lenny Murphy:

Right.

Lenny Murphy:

So, some form of community whether it's a pop-up or, or a long-term community

Lenny Murphy:

application and the business use case that we see most often used within the

Lenny Murphy:

community is for early stage ideation.

Lenny Murphy:

and brands look for a way to connect this process from.

Lenny Murphy:

ideation to optimization

Lenny Murphy:

And a lot of money spent on that, right?

Lenny Murphy:

It's a big investment area, particularly the CBGs as they're looking at building

Lenny Murphy:

building new products, certainly we could also see applications around

Lenny Murphy:

non-physical products as well.

Lenny Murphy:

So if we think about the applications of the day model are you guys thinking about

Lenny Murphy:

the same way I am that low-hanging fruit would be a modification of the qualitative

Lenny Murphy:

quote unquote community centric approach?

Lenny Murphy:

Or am I missing something?

Lenny Murphy:

Are there other things that you're thinking about?

Lenny Murphy:

Wait, why are we not doing this for any other type of, optimization process?

Andrew Konya:

Yes.

Andrew Konya:

I'll start with saying yes.

Andrew Konya:

And

Andrew Konya:

one of many flavors of it.

Andrew Konya:

So I'm actually, let me start with the most radical and work our

Andrew Konya:

way backwards to there I think the most radical version of this.

Andrew Konya:

Does a CPG company look the same as it does today in a version of the future?

Andrew Konya:

Like this.

Andrew Konya:

Right now a CPG company is owned by largely investors or shareholders.

Andrew Konya:

Maybe some of the employees who work there, but definitely

Andrew Konya:

very few of the people who are actually buying those products.

Andrew Konya:

And I could imagine the most extreme application of a doubt is that the

Andrew Konya:

company itself that is producing the goods is owned by the people

Andrew Konya:

who they are producing goods for.

Andrew Konya:

And in that world, the whole model and thought of market research.

Andrew Konya:

Almost you don't need it, or it's replaced by the very mechanism of

Andrew Konya:

those people, steering what the company builds is the market research itself.

Andrew Konya:

So that's not happening next year.

Andrew Konya:

I don't think at least not in a broad stroke, but I like in my mind that

Andrew Konya:

is go far enough into the future.

Andrew Konya:

And I think that maybe isn't, we're looking like, okay, so maybe

Andrew Konya:

it's the most radical version.

Andrew Konya:

And in the present the application that I see as most obvious is less about

Andrew Konya:

just thinking of it as a community and a way to take a community, maybe

Andrew Konya:

create a little bit of alignment around them so that you can make it more

Andrew Konya:

easy in some way to engage with them.

Andrew Konya:

Uh, I think there is a natural.

Andrew Konya:

Nonlinear value creation mechanism in data, any in the participants data

Andrew Konya:

that right now is sometimes captured by companies though, very rarely, never

Andrew Konya:

is it captured by the participants.

Andrew Konya:

if you look into the future, what I expect is that To 100 person communities

Andrew Konya:

are Dows and look at their value.

Andrew Konya:

And then in terms of the data for those people, and then you look

Andrew Konya:

at one, 200 person Dow and look at the data for those people.

Andrew Konya:

That second one of 200 will be worth way more, create a lot more value because

Andrew Konya:

when you put all that data together, you can start predicting and filling

Andrew Konya:

in the gaps for a lot more people.

Andrew Konya:

And so I think what that means is there's potential for a

Andrew Konya:

runaway Dow situation, right?

Andrew Konya:

The doubt eats the traditional and in a way where all of the value

Andrew Konya:

creation from a participant's data not just the linear, I pay you for

Andrew Konya:

your time dollar for your time.

Andrew Konya:

But I now own a piece of that data.

Andrew Konya:

And as that data that I contributed help predict way into the future time

Andrew Konya:

and time again that I know keep making money from it because I'm the one

Andrew Konya:

whose data contributed to that value.

Andrew Konya:

So I think that combination of the non-linear.

Andrew Konya:

Value creation that comes from pooling data together.

Andrew Konya:

And then the power of the doubt to align that with the very people whose data

Andrew Konya:

that is being gathered with, I think is like a very, very disruptive model

Andrew Konya:

And then I would hope you know, flowing on through to the world of advertising

Andrew Konya:

which, which I think could use some.

Lenny Murphy:

Dave.

Lenny Murphy:

So same, same question for you.

Lenny Murphy:

Where's the where's the low-hanging fruit or the far reaching implications.

Dave Carruthers:

I love what Andrew said about kind of how, yeah.

Dave Carruthers:

What does the CPG company brand of the future look like and how is it,

Dave Carruthers:

more collectively owned and, you can start to see how, dads are starting

Dave Carruthers:

to make plays to own certain things.

Dave Carruthers:

I think there's a dye being created that has ambitions to own an NBA from.

Dave Carruthers:

You know, I know the green bay Packers, I think have a more co-op model and

Dave Carruthers:

the funds own it, but can you imagine sports teams being owned, huge, large

Dave Carruthers:

entities being owned by the masses and being in that data structure.

Dave Carruthers:

I think it's, it's very exciting to see.

Dave Carruthers:

Think about kind of a decentralized venture capital fund the, every

Dave Carruthers:

man can invest in a VC fund.

Dave Carruthers:

If you wanna invest in a VC fund, you need to be an LP to be an LP.

Dave Carruthers:

You need to be accredited investor.

Dave Carruthers:

You need to have, you know, whatever it is, probably

Dave Carruthers:

minimum chest size, a hundred.

Dave Carruthers:

Now anyone can put a thousand dollars into a VC fund for decentralized organization,

Dave Carruthers:

democratize and access this language.

Dave Carruthers:

I think, again, you imagine now, more people, bigger funds,

Dave Carruthers:

you know, and unfortunately dad's got off to a Rocky start.

Dave Carruthers:

Right?

Dave Carruthers:

One of the very first dies was exactly that.

Dave Carruthers:

And I think they ended up brazen.

Dave Carruthers:

I think it was what was the equivalent of $150 million worth of eighth at

Dave Carruthers:

the time, which actually all got.

Dave Carruthers:

However, if that doubt had just sat and held that Eve, it would have been worth

Dave Carruthers:

$52 billion today, which probably if they did not make any alpha investment

Dave Carruthers:

whatsoever and things like that.

Dave Carruthers:

So again, not that probably set Daz back four years.

Dave Carruthers:

It was about 2016 that that happened.

Dave Carruthers:

But you can see the possibilities that when I think about insights.

Dave Carruthers:

Yeah.

Dave Carruthers:

I agree with everything that both of you have said.

Dave Carruthers:

I also think of.

Dave Carruthers:

Yeah, there's a, there's a doc would rate guilt and it refers to itself

Dave Carruthers:

as the premier design and development agency, web three ecosystem.

Dave Carruthers:

This is what's called a service star.

Dave Carruthers:

So again, now, you know, you think about the many service companies in our industry

Dave Carruthers:

that are supporting this ecosystem again.

Dave Carruthers:

What does, what are some of those agencies?

Dave Carruthers:

Does the future look like?

Dave Carruthers:

They probably aren't the Cantos of the world owned by bank capital.

Dave Carruthers:

They're a collection of the brightest and best minds in the business.

Dave Carruthers:

Andrew, certain being the money you'll be in that I may get invited.

Dave Carruthers:

I'm not sure yet how the service does evolve and actually become a

Dave Carruthers:

collective of, shared value creation.

Dave Carruthers:

You know, everyone acting like owners and things like that.

Dave Carruthers:

So I think from the research deck, clearly the panel application.

Dave Carruthers:

but I actually think you could see a whole generation of agencies start

Dave Carruthers:

to start to come out of this as well.

Lenny Murphy:

Yeah,

Andrew Konya:

I think there's a, one of the tropes that I at least

Andrew Konya:

entering market research and I'm sure maybe you all identify it,

Andrew Konya:

which is oftentimes there's a people have a bit of a zero sum mindset or.

Andrew Konya:

You know, like people try and protect hold cards, close to their chest.

Andrew Konya:

That's my way of doing it.

Andrew Konya:

You can't take that away with it.

Andrew Konya:

I was inherently incentivized a abundance mindset though, the

Andrew Konya:

whole nature of how they operate.

Andrew Konya:

And so if you take that abundance mindset, you codify it into a trustless system.

Andrew Konya:

Put those people together, remove all the middlemen.

Andrew Konya:

You know how to be a potent competitor That's likely to attract

Andrew Konya:

the best talent and be able to deliver it for less because a better

Andrew Konya:

coordination and lower need for more.

Andrew Konya:

Really could be quite disruptive to those types of models.

Andrew Konya:

Yes.

Andrew Konya:

That's actually a really good idea there.

Dave Carruthers:

I think when you think about it kind of like the data

Dave Carruthers:

ecosystem and things like channeling that provides Oracles to connect real

Dave Carruthers:

world beta into smart contracts, to drive that transparency, you know, there's,

Dave Carruthers:

there's so many things that could be applied to research when you start to be

Dave Carruthers:

pulling data from non blockchain dates.

Dave Carruthers:

Into smart contracts and rewarding based on that.

Dave Carruthers:

So I think that crossover as well is, you know, a fascinating

Dave Carruthers:

opportunity for our industry.

Lenny Murphy:

So, so philosophically.

Lenny Murphy:

We've always approached things from a position of scarcity.

Lenny Murphy:

And when you're dealing with physical products, got it.

Lenny Murphy:

Right.

Lenny Murphy:

We're experiencing it now, right?

Lenny Murphy:

The supply chain issues happening across the board.

Lenny Murphy:

But when we're thinking.

Lenny Murphy:

IP, or we're thinking about value creation in more amorphous things, right.

Lenny Murphy:

That do not necessarily have the scarcity component, then that pivots

Lenny Murphy:

everything to an idea of abundance.

Lenny Murphy:

And I love that you use that idea of this, this abundance framework

Lenny Murphy:

that we don't have to operate from a position of scarcity.

Lenny Murphy:

We can create opportunities that decentralized the control mechanisms

Lenny Murphy:

in the world, both financially and every other level, and utilize these

Lenny Murphy:

tools to really engage everybody and utilizing their core assets, which

Lenny Murphy:

fundamentally, You have three key assets, you have your data, you have

Lenny Murphy:

your time and you have your experience.

Lenny Murphy:

Those are your assets fundamentally, and they should be owned a monetized directly

Lenny Murphy:

by you, that does change the game, right?

Lenny Murphy:

So how do we expand this out into a model that really is fundamentally

Lenny Murphy:

about shared value creation?

Lenny Murphy:

For everyone along the value chain, right?

Lenny Murphy:

For the consumers that engage with the brand for the brand.

Lenny Murphy:

That's Creating the products for the marketers that are helping to drive the

Lenny Murphy:

awareness of that into a virtuous cycle.

Lenny Murphy:

Are we seeing examples of that yet?

Lenny Murphy:

Is there anybody close to doing something like that?

Dave Carruthers:

I think some of the early.

Dave Carruthers:

Does making headway into this, let's say, I think it's worth pointing out

Dave Carruthers:

that, you know, you, we talked a lot about all of the Positive facets of great

Dave Carruthers:

and a Dow window and all of everything that it opens up and things like that.

Dave Carruthers:

There's still, there's still arguments against status and

Dave Carruthers:

challenge it, challenges with them, I think, need to be considered.

Dave Carruthers:

And when, you know, early for me, Corporate law and

Dave Carruthers:

governance and things like that.

Dave Carruthers:

It evolved over time.

Dave Carruthers:

Right?

Dave Carruthers:

It wasn't, it wasn't perfect.

Dave Carruthers:

So as I do still think there's a, there's a lot to, to play out there,

Dave Carruthers:

just even, how, you know, we're creating shared value, the mechanisms to track.

Dave Carruthers:

Is Lenny bringing more value to the project or Andrew, you

Dave Carruthers:

know, and how'd you do that?

Dave Carruthers:

Is it based on time?

Dave Carruthers:

And, you know, there's just so many different facets that go into that.

Dave Carruthers:

And whereas in, in current society, our time is valued in

Dave Carruthers:

hours and it's an hourly rate.

Dave Carruthers:

And if it's a high value task, it's a higher hourly rate.

Dave Carruthers:

If it's a low-value test, it's a low hourly rate.

Dave Carruthers:

And you know, the market will decide if you can, we get enough people to do X

Dave Carruthers:

for Y and that's what kind of builds that economy and in data is a lot more complex.

Dave Carruthers:

And whilst it can be programmatic and built in, there are

Dave Carruthers:

also challenges into that.

Dave Carruthers:

You fundamentally, if I think about having set out Fox properties framework

Dave Carruthers:

on day one and build a smart contract that kind of has everything contained within.

Dave Carruthers:

And then launch that, you know, think how many times we've iterated pivoted changed

Dave Carruthers:

the model and different things was you have a dire and that's in the contract.

Dave Carruthers:

You need to vote up on those changes and get the community to do that.

Dave Carruthers:

So you have to get consensus and at different days have different

Dave Carruthers:

rules around that and who can vote and why you can vote.

Dave Carruthers:

And it, is it one member, one vote.

Dave Carruthers:

Based on the amount of tokens you hold and things like that.

Dave Carruthers:

So, you know, I do think that there's this huge optimism in

Dave Carruthers:

where this, where this could go.

Dave Carruthers:

I don't think the utopia of the Dow I can't point you to something that, you

Dave Carruthers:

know, and you know, there's a lot more people, more knowledgeable about dads

Dave Carruthers:

and the me and someone might be listening to this and think, oh, this is the.

Dave Carruthers:

Does it, but I, I don't personally know of any dire right now that you could point

Dave Carruthers:

to and be like, that is the perfect Dyer.

Dave Carruthers:

This is what we should all be kind of aspiring towards.

Lenny Murphy:

Okay.

Lenny Murphy:

All right, Andrew, I saw you nodding.

Lenny Murphy:

would you add to that?

Andrew Konya:

Certainly agreeing that it's early days and one of the

Andrew Konya:

pieces that is challenging there.

Andrew Konya:

I almost likened Dow's more to government than to start ups.

Andrew Konya:

Because government is generally the ones that last a while tend

Andrew Konya:

to have this bedded stability that is a byproduct of rate limit.

Andrew Konya:

Change us government just can't change that fast.

Andrew Konya:

People think of that as a bug, but that's actually a feature

Andrew Konya:

that was designed into it.

Andrew Konya:

And the reason is that that stability is what gives lots of people organize

Andrew Konya:

around it over long periods of time.

Andrew Konya:

And does do that really well.

Andrew Konya:

They come at the cost of.

Andrew Konya:

At least today, I would imagine as people create better ways of approaching

Andrew Konya:

it, that probably will be gone.

Andrew Konya:

But I've not yet seen that done in a really great way

Andrew Konya:

because consensus takes time.

Andrew Konya:

And you know, if you want, you know, there's this joke what's the

Andrew Konya:

most efficient form of government.

Andrew Konya:

Is it a benevolent dictator fast, the way you make the fastest decisions?

Andrew Konya:

Having said that again, I think that will, will be solved at some point,

Andrew Konya:

but it is early enough days that I don't think anyone's cracked the code.

Andrew Konya:

So to speak, at least not in terms of that full cycle that you're referring to money.

Andrew Konya:

If you like zoom all the way out on like the human race.

Andrew Konya:

The latent value that I think is left to capture at any given slice of time

Andrew Konya:

is that if you look at whatever human on earth is doing, Putting in their time to

Andrew Konya:

change how the future's going to work.

Andrew Konya:

Imagine that is an arrow.

Andrew Konya:

And then you imagine the arrow, which is towards the future.

Andrew Konya:

That is exactly what everybody wants.

Andrew Konya:

Those areas are not alive at any given point, their misalignment is varied.

Andrew Konya:

But I think what the value of market research is the value of things

Andrew Konya:

like a doubt are is to better solve that alignment problem across the

Andrew Konya:

species, the larger timescales.

Andrew Konya:

People skills.

Andrew Konya:

And so I think that means that the virtuous version of

Andrew Konya:

it it may not be like a Dow.

Andrew Konya:

It may be a emergent complex system where these things are just one.

Andrew Konya:

Many things that plug into that system.

Andrew Konya:

But all of which I would say are evaluated in terms of is the

Andrew Konya:

future now steering more towards what people actually want or less.

Andrew Konya:

And if I hold up any version of a Dow and ask that question, how good is

Andrew Konya:

it at steering us towards the future?

Andrew Konya:

Remember, it's not you know, the most recent

Andrew Konya:

ones that the auction goes this morning The constitution is an example of a bunch

Andrew Konya:

of people want a future where a public got to own a constitution and make it public.

Andrew Konya:

That was their direction towards the future.

Andrew Konya:

They want, it turns out a lot of people wanted that version

Andrew Konya:

of the future very quickly.

Andrew Konya:

Enabled that to maybe be the case.

Andrew Konya:

I don't know, as of recording this, if we know the outcome of that yet,

Andrew Konya:

but I think that ability to align towards the future, people want that's

Andrew Konya:

what's, that's the potency of it.

Andrew Konya:

I don't yet know what that looks like in perfection, but there's

Andrew Konya:

all these little like snippets is, I'd say what it feels like right

Andrew Konya:

now, snippets of examples of it.

Andrew Konya:

Being able to align people towards one big purchase of blind people

Andrew Konya:

towards one way of investing, align people towards a vibe and how people

Andrew Konya:

like talk and create community.

Andrew Konya:

But they're not yet all hooked together in a way that I, I feel like I can see yet.

Andrew Konya:

I don't know if you starting to see any of those change together.

Andrew Konya:

Second order effects.

Andrew Konya:

But yeah,

Dave Carruthers:

I think, yeah, I think it's, you're starting to see

Dave Carruthers:

signs of it the internet, was a place where we could read you know,

Dave Carruthers:

information and then web two came along.

Dave Carruthers:

Then people could create and connect.

Dave Carruthers:

And, but most of the value from that gray or economy flowed to Facebook,

Dave Carruthers:

couldn't take talks to the world to say harnessed, all the ad advertising

Dave Carruthers:

revenue, where I see web three and Dow's and the creators of value are able to.

Dave Carruthers:

To pull all of that.

Dave Carruthers:

It's not, it's not all going to, to the Facebooks and the

Dave Carruthers:

other parts of the world.

Dave Carruthers:

And, you know, you think about, the the opportunities for that.

Dave Carruthers:

Shared creation of value and then how that would then tap into

Dave Carruthers:

the B2B research space as well.

Dave Carruthers:

I think that the opportunities ahead of us with this organization and breaking down

Dave Carruthers:

those borders as well, and making truly global entities and, removing some of the

Dave Carruthers:

inequalities of, wealth transfer as well.

Lenny Murphy:

Yeah.

Lenny Murphy:

There's a couple of things.

Lenny Murphy:

But Andrew, what I was thinking about when you were talking

Lenny Murphy:

specifically was so what's next.

Lenny Murphy:

And I think about Remesh and your background and what I always thought

Lenny Murphy:

was cool about what you guys did is you created an AI algorithm to

Lenny Murphy:

be able to structure information.

Lenny Murphy:

Really quickly to duplicate the paradigm, of a focus group, but with a thousand

Lenny Murphy:

participants, which are in a moderator can ever do to streamline that process.

Lenny Murphy:

So one individual could be able to actively engage in that conversation.

Lenny Murphy:

So what is the role of AI in helping to optimize the

Lenny Murphy:

efficiency of the dowel model?

Lenny Murphy:

To help create more scalability.

Andrew Konya:

I think Dave, you kind of queued up these categories

Andrew Konya:

of, of different flavors, of what, what goes on in a doubt also what

Andrew Konya:

types of now there are plus and it comes down to communication,

Andrew Konya:

coordination and decision making.

Andrew Konya:

And I would say AI has potential, not for sure, but potential

Andrew Konya:

applicability in all of this.

Andrew Konya:

I think from a coordination perspective right now the best way we as humans

Andrew Konya:

know how to coordinate, but she has something, is there a free market economy?

Andrew Konya:

That is the way that you can set a goal and the machine aligns

Andrew Konya:

the work that we do towards that.

Andrew Konya:

I think that doubt they're taking a little different of an angle at it

Andrew Konya:

though, using the same basic principles of a free market economy to create the

Andrew Konya:

alignment with the added component of being able to have some algorithmic

Andrew Konya:

alignment that you can decide on.

Andrew Konya:

There's a lot of process to be made there.

Andrew Konya:

Right now, the gas fees would be too to try and actually

Andrew Konya:

implement that in in a real way.

Andrew Konya:

But I think being able to thinking AI is just an optimization tool.

Andrew Konya:

I can optimize.

Andrew Konya:

Coordination by figuring out who do you point a task to,

Andrew Konya:

to get it done the fastest?

Andrew Konya:

What do you combine together to orchestrate tasks in the best way?

Andrew Konya:

How do you represent people the most accurately?

Andrew Konya:

In some constrained amount of time.

Andrew Konya:

And I think that last one points to how do you make decisions?

Andrew Konya:

On behalf of a doubt, Best represent what the direction

Andrew Konya:

the future of the Dell wants.

Andrew Konya:

And so if I think of Remesh like the superpower, we've the thing we've

Andrew Konya:

obsessed about is can we in real time pluck out what is that arrow?

Andrew Konya:

AI as a way to solve the doubt makes decisions, slope.

Andrew Konya:

I think it might be the most obvious starting point, but in so much as it's an

Andrew Konya:

organism to be optimized, I think it can apply everywhere, but I would start with

Andrew Konya:

caution because there's lots of air bars.

Andrew Konya:

What do think.

Dave Carruthers:

Yeah, I think what AI is incredibly good at

Dave Carruthers:

doing is taking a huge volume of data and then crunching that data.

Dave Carruthers:

A couple of outcomes or

Dave Carruthers:

so imagine we set up a property down and we were going to invest in all kinds of

Dave Carruthers:

properties, you know, shared ownership.

Dave Carruthers:

Everyone's chipping in to do that.

Dave Carruthers:

You could take real world data like residential markets growth in

Dave Carruthers:

equity, value rentals per night.

Dave Carruthers:

All of that data, put that into an algorithm, get the

Dave Carruthers:

algorithm to then spit out.

Dave Carruthers:

Okay.

Dave Carruthers:

These are the three properties the dam should consider buying this.

Dave Carruthers:

We've got, we're never in on three.

Dave Carruthers:

We're not trying to consent.

Dave Carruthers:

We're not trying to get 27,000 people's different properties.

Dave Carruthers:

We're going to hook into a whole bunch of sources.

Dave Carruthers:

When you use an AI algorithm that basically says, this is going to give the

Dave Carruthers:

highest return on investment for our data.

Dave Carruthers:

And these are the three.

Dave Carruthers:

Now the community gets to vote on which three we want to buy.

Dave Carruthers:

The dog goes and buys it.

Dave Carruthers:

It comes becomes part of the doubt.

Dave Carruthers:

We're in some repeat, we do that next.

Dave Carruthers:

All of a sudden, over three years, we've built a 36 property portfolio.

Dave Carruthers:

That's highly optimized and fair enough, great returns for the stakeholders.

Dave Carruthers:

So just, just trying to get people to think as to how kind of

Dave Carruthers:

real-world IAI could contribute into kind of dire decision.

Lenny Murphy:

We could go on for a really long time and, and, and I won't

Lenny Murphy:

go in and extend this invitation.

Lenny Murphy:

We need to do this again and probably pretty soon maybe at the turn of the year.

Lenny Murphy:

Cause I think this is, this is incredibly fascinating.

Lenny Murphy:

And I do believe that this collaborative framework interest network of the

Lenny Murphy:

Dow is revolutionary or they, it does have the opportunity to change

Lenny Murphy:

things dramatically, not just in the insight industry, but across the board.

Lenny Murphy:

For now, though, for the sake of our listeners.

Lenny Murphy:

One question for each of you other than dowels, where are you

Lenny Murphy:

spending your time online lately?

Lenny Murphy:

What's kind of the, the coolest thing that really has your attention right now.

Lenny Murphy:

And Andrew.

Andrew Konya:

I think for me, my obsession has been similar to what I noted earlier,

Andrew Konya:

which is the non-linear leverage.

Andrew Konya:

You get out of data.

Andrew Konya:

There's an emerging set of algorithms.

Andrew Konya:

There's even a couple of companies starting to apply these in a real way.

Andrew Konya:

But I think that through the world of market research and advertising and

Andrew Konya:

all of the above, the thought that, one data point equals one unit value

Andrew Konya:

I think is now probably broken, but not yet turned into a business model.

Andrew Konya:

And so I've been spending a lot of time understanding and working

Andrew Konya:

on the things that break it from a algorithmics perspective.

Andrew Konya:

That's this how you actually turn that into business model, right?

Andrew Konya:

We live in a world of sample where a sample costs literally proportional

Andrew Konya:

to N size and generally every way.

Andrew Konya:

And I think that's wrong that that's not how it should work.

Andrew Konya:

The actual cost scales sub linearly.

Andrew Konya:

That means there's a huge opportunity for dysfunction.

Andrew Konya:

But that has been the pointed obsession of mine.

Dave Carruthers:

I think the whole.

Dave Carruthers:

Kind of defy web three movement and, you know, dads are just one small part of

Dave Carruthers:

that, I think it is fascinating to me.

Dave Carruthers:

It's similar to the Andrea kind of what business models does that

Dave Carruthers:

now open up and how do we combine existing data sets or data sources

Dave Carruthers:

with this new paradigm of web three.

Dave Carruthers:

And what does that open up to us?

Dave Carruthers:

As you say that the, the automation layers, the shared value creation, modern

Dave Carruthers:

life is going to be disrupted by this.

Dave Carruthers:

And, I see a lot of people you know, they look at crypto and

Dave Carruthers:

it's just hype and it's not there.

Dave Carruthers:

You know, these are the same people that told you that, the internet was a fad.

Dave Carruthers:

You know what I mean?

Dave Carruthers:

Like if, if, if you're kind of sitting there thinking, Hey, crypto

Dave Carruthers:

is a fad web three and NFTs are just about, silly pictures of.

Dave Carruthers:

You're not understanding where this is going, and maybe you

Dave Carruthers:

missed a train on the internet.

Dave Carruthers:

Don't make the same mistake again.

Dave Carruthers:

This is real.

Dave Carruthers:

This is happening it's early, but it will fundamentally change how the world works.

Lenny Murphy:

Yep.

Lenny Murphy:

Good stuff, guys.

Lenny Murphy:

All right.

Lenny Murphy:

Final question.

Lenny Murphy:

Real quick.

Lenny Murphy:

We're we're going to, we're going to Dow this a little bit

Lenny Murphy:

without the the mechanisms.

Lenny Murphy:

I'm going to ask you to, for you to vote so to speak who would be a

Lenny Murphy:

great guest for the podcast Barack

Andrew Konya:

Obama?

Lenny Murphy:

Well, we haven't said are our sights quite that

Lenny Murphy:

high yet, maybe bring it down just a little bit aspirationally.

Dave Carruthers:

Yeah, I guess from my side one of the people that I've been

Dave Carruthers:

talking to a lot about this space as a Chris cable so he was formerly a data

Dave Carruthers:

and insights analytics lead at Dasher.

Dave Carruthers:

And this recently left that role to pursue working on multiple doubtful.

Dave Carruthers:

So you know, someone from the space on the brand side so I

Dave Carruthers:

think he would, be a, good guest.

Dave Carruthers:

I know, Rodney Knowles has been doing a lot in this space as well, yeah,

Lenny Murphy:

Okay.

Andrew Konya:

A person, I think that's maybe one degree away from our networker

Andrew Konya:

or, but not far as Louis Vaughn on he originally founded recapture

Andrew Konya:

and re most recently duo lingo.

Andrew Konya:

And what he is a genius at is models that business models that align people value

Andrew Konya:

creation Companies in ways that are super creative and you would not have thought

Andrew Konya:

of in generally ones that involve AI.

Andrew Konya:

And so I think he might have a really interesting perspective to bring to

Andrew Konya:

a conversation around this stuff, not about the Dao itself, but around kind

Andrew Konya:

of the future of how business models are evolving at the intersection of

Andrew Konya:

aligning people incentivizing them to do tasks and way that create

Andrew Konya:

value and how AI makes those things.

Lenny Murphy:

Very cool.

Lenny Murphy:

All right.

Lenny Murphy:

We have taken notes.

Lenny Murphy:

So, thank you guys.

Lenny Murphy:

This has been an extraordinary conversation.

Lenny Murphy:

We will reach out to continue the conversation on the

Lenny Murphy:

podcast or individually.

Lenny Murphy:

Thanks to our audience for listening.

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