In this episode, GreenBook's host, Lenny Murphy is joined by Dave Carruthers, Founder of Voxpopme, and Andrew Konya, Co-Founder of Remesh to discuss how Decentralized Autonomous Organizations (DAO) will open up opportunities for new business models, create shared value for consumers and brands, and shape the future of research organizations.

Links From The Show:

• GreenBook --> https://greenbook.captivate.fm/podcast
• Lenny Murphy --> https://greenbook.captivate.fm/lenny

Many thanks to our guests, Dave and Andrew. Thanks also to Emily Fullmer, for producing and editing this episode.

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Hello everybody.

This is Lenny Murphy.

And welcome to episode two of the Greenberg podcast.

Today we are discussing how DAOs will shape research organizations.

And if you don't know what a DAO is, well, we're about to

find out because my two guests.

Are deeply exploring this and they're going to educate all

of us as we go through this.

So first welcoming Dave Carruthers.

He is the founder and CEO of Voxpopme.

He is also a hell of a personal inspiration because he tackled keto

before I did and became a boxer, which I was never brave enough to do so, Dave,

welcome.

Thanks.

Not only looking forward to.

I am as well.

And then Andrew Konya the, the only real genius, I think I know

I, lots of smart people, but.

The different level.

So, Andrew is the CEO and co-founder of Remesh in New York

city-based startup software company.

Andrew.

Welcome.

Thank you, Lenny.

Pleasure to be here.

Good, good to have you.

All right, so guys, DAOs I suspect that it's a term that's been around for a

while, but not everybody is aware of that.

So let's go back to basics.

What is a DAO.

Why don't we start with things.

I know you've, I've also followed all your adventures in in

crypto over the years as well.

So yeah,

I think the best way to think of a DAO is really

a new way of organizing people.

Traditionally that the kind of company organizational

structure , has been a way to.

Calais and collect kind of talent in pursuit, of a shared goal.

And I think a Dyer has , a similar objective but it's all geared

towards the shared purpose and the creation of value a much more shared

value across the participants.

So, democratization is a big part of this aligned all parties, to participate and

that decentralized framework enabled.

Workers users, stakeholders to really have true ownership.

And I think, we've seen this in the startup culture and, many companies

in the space, issue options to employees and things like that at

an early stage, but historically companies haven't, always done that.

Trying to find consensus aligned all pies, to play a role in whether

where the project goes or where the organization goes is incredible.

We're still extremely early in the dive space.

But when you look at some of the interesting projects, so the starting

to launch, we'll talk about them a little bit later, there's just so many.

Industries and verticals that have been disrupted by this and really looking

forward to digging in on what the impact is on the research industry.

Okay.

So Andrew, so think about, the work within rematch, which I would broadly

characterize as bringing in together, large groups of people on a topic and

getting that information condensed so that a moderator could respond to that quickly.

I would imagine that the interest in the Dao is another application.

The crowdsourcing, if you will, a process of getting alignment

around ideas and early ideation is that accurate and is that kind of

how you've been thinking about it?

Yeah

I and I think what's cool about it is that it changes the structure of trust That's

a combination of determining government decisions, determining where money flows.

And all of the soft power of determining like culture largely that is, maybe with

the exception of culture it's centralized.

We designed them, the us government was designed, Dave and I run companies.

We've designed this, we create this organizational structure, and then in

those designed trust is founded on, I don't want to say weak rounds, but,

uh, not super strong grounds, right?

Trust, uh, in the value of a company or what you're going to get is.

Paperwork legal system, and your trust that your employer will follow

through on something that government will fall through on something, the

currency that they're paying you and will have value into the future.

And I think like the foundations of all of those trust, , are like compound

usually up to, some central place.

Um, I think that promise of a Dow, uh, is that you can.

Have trust in a way that it, or trust in an algorithm or trust in a system that

is much more objective and not founded on paperwork, legal structures, governments,

and things like that, combined with the ability for it to emerge.

It does not require a person who is actually designing from the top down.

It requires only a direction, even loosely specified that it's aligning and then

what can emerge out of it, uh, is the consistent steering of that direction.

And so with the lens that a Dow is just an.

Collectively intelligent community that determines the direction and

can real time steer that direction.

They want to go.

And, uh, I think of Remesh, uh, as the ones we view it through, uh, is simply as

a way to have a conversation with a doubt.

If you have a collectively intelligent community that is out there, Steer

an increasingly large fraction of where we go into the future.

Then it feels reasonable that you would want to have a conversation with it.

Uh, and so in the same way, right now, you think through a research lens, you wanna

have a conversation with the population to understand them and inform them, some type

of decision, like what they're going to buy with a, those folks help potentially

even more leverage around the future.

Uh, Talking to it, uh, as a, an organism in and of itself, I think is

what's most interesting now, as David mentioned, there's a long tail of other

interesting things there, but yeah,

yeah.

I think, uh,

when I think about it, I think there's two key traits, of a dag.

One is the participants are acting like.

And the second is radical transparency.

The fact that the actions of a dire, you know, appear on a blockchain

that are immutable and visible to the world I think , is a key part of that.

But I also think we also early in this, that if you ask people to classify what.

You'd get a lot of different answers, right?

Some people might tell you it's a discord with a shared bank account.

Others might categorize it as a community with distributed ownership.

Some might just call it a vibe, something they want to be able to be a part of.

You know what I mean?

It's it's, it's still very fluid at this time.

So let's talk about that current state and kind of get

into the, the pragmatic aspects.

So, you know, it is early and there's a lot, I'll throw it in

my head on how we think about the applications in the future.

But uh, if somebody wants to create a Dow today for whatever purpose do you

know, discuss what have Thanksgiving dinner, radical transparency,

everybody contributing ideas.

How would you do it?

How is it happening?

I think like many things that are in, the early adoption

phases, , the tooling to create and support Daz is constantly evolving.

And, there's essentially multiple.

Tools available for kind of each stage of, data creation and formation.

So you've got tools like Oregon syndicated Orca that allow you to

essentially you know, Real-world equivalent is Stripe Atlas, right?

You go onto Stripe.

They'll do all the legal docs.

They'll set you up for Delaware, LLC, et cetera, et cetera.

These tools essentially handle things like membership management,

treasury tooling, infrastructure for governance and things like that.

So, you know, it's, there's multiple tools available there.

When you think about the communication layer of the

business, discord has become the de.

Kind of communication tool of choice, you know, instead of a discord server

bunch of different channels for all kinds of interactions, whether it

be product engineering, marketing.

And that's the thing about the dive.

When people join the data, they're looking, what, how can

I add value to this product and how can I add to this community?

And, you know, we can talk about competence.

Compensation how they they're awarded for that.

And then yeah, things like coordination voting, you know, this, this is

essentially a whole ecosystem of tools which is, you know still, probably.

A hundred hundred and 20 companies in that ecosystem today, which, you know,

when you think about the, the grit reports kind of a logo ecosystem island, , I

imagine the dairy ecosystem map will look very similar to that in five years,

time as more and more, tools commands.

So, yeah, I think there's, there's a lot of tooling that's out there.

But at the moment it's still very much kind of like a.

Duct tape in a few things together to, figure that out.

But that talks to the scrappy ness and, the nature of, bringing

all of these disparate parties together amongst that shared vision.

thing I

want you to

double click on, you know, to their dividend thing,

the beauty of Dow's and almost all flavors, whether it's the Vive

version or the like collectively and investing version and that is.

It is an alignment machine where by you joining you, get you share

in the value that's created.

And thus you are incentivized to create value in generally the

constant pattern you see wrapped around them is nonlinear value.

Meaning when you add one more person when you add the 10th person, you've not

just increased the value by one night.

It's, you know, you get a one plus one equals 10 type

effect where it's compounding.

So if you plotted like the value of a doubt proportional to the

amount of people, you would expect it not to be aligned, but something

that looked much more exponential.

And I think that whether that line might be vibe that you're putting

right more people just compounds the vibe or compounds the actual

value measured in units of pick your, pick your stable currency.

You trust, I trust Juul, but that's what

you might actually think of it in.

All right.

So Let's let's step back for a minute and then start thinking about framing

this up with the research space.

from an evolutionary perspective, the the standard research tool where a doubt

could fit into it would be a committee.

Right.

So, some form of community whether it's a pop-up or, or a long-term community

application and the business use case that we see most often used within the

community is for early stage ideation.

and brands look for a way to connect this process from.

ideation to optimization

And a lot of money spent on that, right?

It's a big investment area, particularly the CBGs as they're looking at building

building new products, certainly we could also see applications around

non-physical products as well.

So if we think about the applications of the day model are you guys thinking about

the same way I am that low-hanging fruit would be a modification of the qualitative

quote unquote community centric approach?

Or am I missing something?

Are there other things that you're thinking about?

Wait, why are we not doing this for any other type of, optimization process?

Yes.

I'll start with saying yes.

And

one of many flavors of it.

So I'm actually, let me start with the most radical and work our

way backwards to there I think the most radical version of this.

Does a CPG company look the same as it does today in a version of the future?

Like this.

Right now a CPG company is owned by largely investors or shareholders.

Maybe some of the employees who work there, but definitely

very few of the people who are actually buying those products.

And I could imagine the most extreme application of a doubt is that the

company itself that is producing the goods is owned by the people

who they are producing goods for.

And in that world, the whole model and thought of market research.

Almost you don't need it, or it's replaced by the very mechanism of

those people, steering what the company builds is the market research itself.

So that's not happening next year.

I don't think at least not in a broad stroke, but I like in my mind that

is go far enough into the future.

And I think that maybe isn't, we're looking like, okay, so maybe

it's the most radical version.

And in the present the application that I see as most obvious is less about

just thinking of it as a community and a way to take a community, maybe

create a little bit of alignment around them so that you can make it more

easy in some way to engage with them.

Uh, I think there is a natural.

Nonlinear value creation mechanism in data, any in the participants data

that right now is sometimes captured by companies though, very rarely, never

is it captured by the participants.

if you look into the future, what I expect is that To 100 person communities

are Dows and look at their value.

And then in terms of the data for those people, and then you look

at one, 200 person Dow and look at the data for those people.

That second one of 200 will be worth way more, create a lot more value because

when you put all that data together, you can start predicting and filling

in the gaps for a lot more people.

And so I think what that means is there's potential for a

runaway Dow situation, right?

The doubt eats the traditional and in a way where all of the value

creation from a participant's data not just the linear, I pay you for

your time dollar for your time.

But I now own a piece of that data.

And as that data that I contributed help predict way into the future time

and time again that I know keep making money from it because I'm the one

whose data contributed to that value.

So I think that combination of the non-linear.

Value creation that comes from pooling data together.

And then the power of the doubt to align that with the very people whose data

that is being gathered with, I think is like a very, very disruptive model

And then I would hope you know, flowing on through to the world of advertising

which, which I think could use some.

Dave.

So same, same question for you.

Where's the where's the low-hanging fruit or the far reaching implications.

I love what Andrew said about kind of how, yeah.

What does the CPG company brand of the future look like and how is it,

more collectively owned and, you can start to see how, dads are starting

to make plays to own certain things.

I think there's a dye being created that has ambitions to own an NBA from.

You know, I know the green bay Packers, I think have a more co-op model and

the funds own it, but can you imagine sports teams being owned, huge, large

entities being owned by the masses and being in that data structure.

I think it's, it's very exciting to see.

Think about kind of a decentralized venture capital fund the, every

man can invest in a VC fund.

If you wanna invest in a VC fund, you need to be an LP to be an LP.

You need to be accredited investor.

You need to have, you know, whatever it is, probably

minimum chest size, a hundred.

Now anyone can put a thousand dollars into a VC fund for decentralized organization,

democratize and access this language.

I think, again, you imagine now, more people, bigger funds,

you know, and unfortunately dad's got off to a Rocky start.

Right?

One of the very first dies was exactly that.

And I think they ended up brazen.

I think it was what was the equivalent of $150 million worth of eighth at

the time, which actually all got.

However, if that doubt had just sat and held that Eve, it would have been worth

$52 billion today, which probably if they did not make any alpha investment

whatsoever and things like that.

So again, not that probably set Daz back four years.

It was about 2016 that that happened.

But you can see the possibilities that when I think about insights.

Yeah.

I agree with everything that both of you have said.

I also think of.

Yeah, there's a, there's a doc would rate guilt and it refers to itself

as the premier design and development agency, web three ecosystem.

This is what's called a service star.

So again, now, you know, you think about the many service companies in our industry

that are supporting this ecosystem again.

What does, what are some of those agencies?

Does the future look like?

They probably aren't the Cantos of the world owned by bank capital.

They're a collection of the brightest and best minds in the business.

Andrew, certain being the money you'll be in that I may get invited.

I'm not sure yet how the service does evolve and actually become a

collective of, shared value creation.

You know, everyone acting like owners and things like that.

So I think from the research deck, clearly the panel application.

but I actually think you could see a whole generation of agencies start

to start to come out of this as well.

Yeah,

I think there's a, one of the tropes that I at least

entering market research and I'm sure maybe you all identify it,

which is oftentimes there's a people have a bit of a zero sum mindset or.

You know, like people try and protect hold cards, close to their chest.

That's my way of doing it.

You can't take that away with it.

I was inherently incentivized a abundance mindset though, the

whole nature of how they operate.

And so if you take that abundance mindset, you codify it into a trustless system.

Put those people together, remove all the middlemen.

You know how to be a potent competitor That's likely to attract

the best talent and be able to deliver it for less because a better

coordination and lower need for more.

Really could be quite disruptive to those types of models.

Yes.

That's actually a really good idea there.

I think when you think about it kind of like the data

ecosystem and things like channeling that provides Oracles to connect real

world beta into smart contracts, to drive that transparency, you know, there's,

there's so many things that could be applied to research when you start to be

pulling data from non blockchain dates.

Into smart contracts and rewarding based on that.

So I think that crossover as well is, you know, a fascinating

opportunity for our industry.

So, so philosophically.

We've always approached things from a position of scarcity.

And when you're dealing with physical products, got it.

Right.

We're experiencing it now, right?

The supply chain issues happening across the board.

But when we're thinking.

IP, or we're thinking about value creation in more amorphous things, right.

That do not necessarily have the scarcity component, then that pivots

everything to an idea of abundance.

And I love that you use that idea of this, this abundance framework

that we don't have to operate from a position of scarcity.

We can create opportunities that decentralized the control mechanisms

in the world, both financially and every other level, and utilize these

tools to really engage everybody and utilizing their core assets, which

fundamentally, You have three key assets, you have your data, you have

your time and you have your experience.

Those are your assets fundamentally, and they should be owned a monetized directly

by you, that does change the game, right?

So how do we expand this out into a model that really is fundamentally

about shared value creation?

For everyone along the value chain, right?

For the consumers that engage with the brand for the brand.

That's Creating the products for the marketers that are helping to drive the

awareness of that into a virtuous cycle.

Are we seeing examples of that yet?

Is there anybody close to doing something like that?

I think some of the early.

Does making headway into this, let's say, I think it's worth pointing out

that, you know, you, we talked a lot about all of the Positive facets of great

and a Dow window and all of everything that it opens up and things like that.

There's still, there's still arguments against status and

challenge it, challenges with them, I think, need to be considered.

And when, you know, early for me, Corporate law and

governance and things like that.

It evolved over time.

Right?

It wasn't, it wasn't perfect.

So as I do still think there's a, there's a lot to, to play out there,

just even, how, you know, we're creating shared value, the mechanisms to track.

Is Lenny bringing more value to the project or Andrew, you

know, and how'd you do that?

Is it based on time?

And, you know, there's just so many different facets that go into that.

And whereas in, in current society, our time is valued in

hours and it's an hourly rate.

And if it's a high value task, it's a higher hourly rate.

If it's a low-value test, it's a low hourly rate.

And you know, the market will decide if you can, we get enough people to do X

for Y and that's what kind of builds that economy and in data is a lot more complex.

And whilst it can be programmatic and built in, there are

also challenges into that.

You fundamentally, if I think about having set out Fox properties framework

on day one and build a smart contract that kind of has everything contained within.

And then launch that, you know, think how many times we've iterated pivoted changed

the model and different things was you have a dire and that's in the contract.

You need to vote up on those changes and get the community to do that.

So you have to get consensus and at different days have different

rules around that and who can vote and why you can vote.

And it, is it one member, one vote.

Based on the amount of tokens you hold and things like that.

So, you know, I do think that there's this huge optimism in

where this, where this could go.

I don't think the utopia of the Dow I can't point you to something that, you

know, and you know, there's a lot more people, more knowledgeable about dads

and the me and someone might be listening to this and think, oh, this is the.

Does it, but I, I don't personally know of any dire right now that you could point

to and be like, that is the perfect Dyer.

This is what we should all be kind of aspiring towards.

Okay.

All right, Andrew, I saw you nodding.

would you add to that?

Certainly agreeing that it's early days and one of the

pieces that is challenging there.

I almost likened Dow's more to government than to start ups.

Because government is generally the ones that last a while tend

to have this bedded stability that is a byproduct of rate limit.

Change us government just can't change that fast.

People think of that as a bug, but that's actually a feature

that was designed into it.

And the reason is that that stability is what gives lots of people organize

around it over long periods of time.

And does do that really well.

They come at the cost of.

At least today, I would imagine as people create better ways of approaching

it, that probably will be gone.

But I've not yet seen that done in a really great way

because consensus takes time.

And you know, if you want, you know, there's this joke what's the

most efficient form of government.

Is it a benevolent dictator fast, the way you make the fastest decisions?

Having said that again, I think that will, will be solved at some point,

but it is early enough days that I don't think anyone's cracked the code.

So to speak, at least not in terms of that full cycle that you're referring to money.

If you like zoom all the way out on like the human race.

The latent value that I think is left to capture at any given slice of time

is that if you look at whatever human on earth is doing, Putting in their time to

change how the future's going to work.

Imagine that is an arrow.

And then you imagine the arrow, which is towards the future.

That is exactly what everybody wants.

Those areas are not alive at any given point, their misalignment is varied.

But I think what the value of market research is the value of things

like a doubt are is to better solve that alignment problem across the

species, the larger timescales.

People skills.

And so I think that means that the virtuous version of

it it may not be like a Dow.

It may be a emergent complex system where these things are just one.

Many things that plug into that system.

But all of which I would say are evaluated in terms of is the

future now steering more towards what people actually want or less.

And if I hold up any version of a Dow and ask that question, how good is

it at steering us towards the future?

Remember, it's not you know, the most recent

ones that the auction goes this morning The constitution is an example of a bunch

of people want a future where a public got to own a constitution and make it public.

That was their direction towards the future.

They want, it turns out a lot of people wanted that version

of the future very quickly.

Enabled that to maybe be the case.

I don't know, as of recording this, if we know the outcome of that yet,

but I think that ability to align towards the future, people want that's

what's, that's the potency of it.

I don't yet know what that looks like in perfection, but there's

all these little like snippets is, I'd say what it feels like right

now, snippets of examples of it.

Being able to align people towards one big purchase of blind people

towards one way of investing, align people towards a vibe and how people

like talk and create community.

But they're not yet all hooked together in a way that I, I feel like I can see yet.

I don't know if you starting to see any of those change together.

Second order effects.

But yeah,

I think, yeah, I think it's, you're starting to see

signs of it the internet, was a place where we could read you know,

information and then web two came along.

Then people could create and connect.

And, but most of the value from that gray or economy flowed to Facebook,

couldn't take talks to the world to say harnessed, all the ad advertising

revenue, where I see web three and Dow's and the creators of value are able to.

To pull all of that.

It's not, it's not all going to, to the Facebooks and the

other parts of the world.

And, you know, you think about, the the opportunities for that.

Shared creation of value and then how that would then tap into

the B2B research space as well.

I think that the opportunities ahead of us with this organization and breaking down

those borders as well, and making truly global entities and, removing some of the

inequalities of, wealth transfer as well.

Yeah.

There's a couple of things.

But Andrew, what I was thinking about when you were talking

specifically was so what's next.

And I think about Remesh and your background and what I always thought

was cool about what you guys did is you created an AI algorithm to

be able to structure information.

Really quickly to duplicate the paradigm, of a focus group, but with a thousand

participants, which are in a moderator can ever do to streamline that process.

So one individual could be able to actively engage in that conversation.

So what is the role of AI in helping to optimize the

efficiency of the dowel model?

To help create more scalability.

I think Dave, you kind of queued up these categories

of, of different flavors, of what, what goes on in a doubt also what

types of now there are plus and it comes down to communication,

coordination and decision making.

And I would say AI has potential, not for sure, but potential

applicability in all of this.

I think from a coordination perspective right now the best way we as humans

know how to coordinate, but she has something, is there a free market economy?

That is the way that you can set a goal and the machine aligns

the work that we do towards that.

I think that doubt they're taking a little different of an angle at it

though, using the same basic principles of a free market economy to create the

alignment with the added component of being able to have some algorithmic

alignment that you can decide on.

There's a lot of process to be made there.

Right now, the gas fees would be too to try and actually

implement that in in a real way.

But I think being able to thinking AI is just an optimization tool.

I can optimize.

Coordination by figuring out who do you point a task to,

to get it done the fastest?

What do you combine together to orchestrate tasks in the best way?

How do you represent people the most accurately?

In some constrained amount of time.

And I think that last one points to how do you make decisions?

On behalf of a doubt, Best represent what the direction

the future of the Dell wants.

And so if I think of Remesh like the superpower, we've the thing we've

obsessed about is can we in real time pluck out what is that arrow?

AI as a way to solve the doubt makes decisions, slope.

I think it might be the most obvious starting point, but in so much as it's an

organism to be optimized, I think it can apply everywhere, but I would start with

caution because there's lots of air bars.

What do think.

Yeah, I think what AI is incredibly good at

doing is taking a huge volume of data and then crunching that data.

A couple of outcomes or

so imagine we set up a property down and we were going to invest in all kinds of

properties, you know, shared ownership.

Everyone's chipping in to do that.

You could take real world data like residential markets growth in

equity, value rentals per night.

All of that data, put that into an algorithm, get the

algorithm to then spit out.

Okay.

These are the three properties the dam should consider buying this.

We've got, we're never in on three.

We're not trying to consent.

We're not trying to get 27,000 people's different properties.

We're going to hook into a whole bunch of sources.

When you use an AI algorithm that basically says, this is going to give the

highest return on investment for our data.

And these are the three.

Now the community gets to vote on which three we want to buy.

The dog goes and buys it.

It comes becomes part of the doubt.

We're in some repeat, we do that next.

All of a sudden, over three years, we've built a 36 property portfolio.

That's highly optimized and fair enough, great returns for the stakeholders.

So just, just trying to get people to think as to how kind of

real-world IAI could contribute into kind of dire decision.

We could go on for a really long time and, and, and I won't

go in and extend this invitation.

We need to do this again and probably pretty soon maybe at the turn of the year.

Cause I think this is, this is incredibly fascinating.

And I do believe that this collaborative framework interest network of the

Dow is revolutionary or they, it does have the opportunity to change

things dramatically, not just in the insight industry, but across the board.

For now, though, for the sake of our listeners.

One question for each of you other than dowels, where are you

spending your time online lately?

What's kind of the, the coolest thing that really has your attention right now.

And Andrew.

I think for me, my obsession has been similar to what I noted earlier,

which is the non-linear leverage.

You get out of data.

There's an emerging set of algorithms.

There's even a couple of companies starting to apply these in a real way.

But I think that through the world of market research and advertising and

all of the above, the thought that, one data point equals one unit value

I think is now probably broken, but not yet turned into a business model.

And so I've been spending a lot of time understanding and working

on the things that break it from a algorithmics perspective.

That's this how you actually turn that into business model, right?

We live in a world of sample where a sample costs literally proportional

to N size and generally every way.

And I think that's wrong that that's not how it should work.

The actual cost scales sub linearly.

That means there's a huge opportunity for dysfunction.

But that has been the pointed obsession of mine.

I think the whole.

Kind of defy web three movement and, you know, dads are just one small part of

that, I think it is fascinating to me.

It's similar to the Andrea kind of what business models does that

now open up and how do we combine existing data sets or data sources

with this new paradigm of web three.

And what does that open up to us?

As you say that the, the automation layers, the shared value creation, modern

life is going to be disrupted by this.

And, I see a lot of people you know, they look at crypto and

it's just hype and it's not there.

You know, these are the same people that told you that, the internet was a fad.

You know what I mean?

Like if, if, if you're kind of sitting there thinking, Hey, crypto

is a fad web three and NFTs are just about, silly pictures of.

You're not understanding where this is going, and maybe you

missed a train on the internet.

Don't make the same mistake again.

This is real.

This is happening it's early, but it will fundamentally change how the world works.

Yep.

Good stuff, guys.

All right.

Final question.

Real quick.

We're we're going to, we're going to Dow this a little bit

without the the mechanisms.

I'm going to ask you to, for you to vote so to speak who would be a

great guest for the podcast Barack

Obama?

Well, we haven't said are our sights quite that

high yet, maybe bring it down just a little bit aspirationally.

Yeah, I guess from my side one of the people that I've been

talking to a lot about this space as a Chris cable so he was formerly a data

and insights analytics lead at Dasher.

And this recently left that role to pursue working on multiple doubtful.

So you know, someone from the space on the brand side so I

think he would, be a, good guest.

I know, Rodney Knowles has been doing a lot in this space as well, yeah,

Okay.

A person, I think that's maybe one degree away from our networker

or, but not far as Louis Vaughn on he originally founded recapture

and re most recently duo lingo.

And what he is a genius at is models that business models that align people value

creation Companies in ways that are super creative and you would not have thought

of in generally ones that involve AI.

And so I think he might have a really interesting perspective to bring to

a conversation around this stuff, not about the Dao itself, but around kind

of the future of how business models are evolving at the intersection of

aligning people incentivizing them to do tasks and way that create

value and how AI makes those things.

Very cool.

All right.

We have taken notes.

So, thank you guys.

This has been an extraordinary conversation.

We will reach out to continue the conversation on the

podcast or individually.

Thanks to our audience for listening.