Do you ever feel hamstrung by the rules you’re bound by? The have-to’s and should’s and the ‘don’t-do-that’s’ that govern your work practices and broader life? Do you ever wonder what things would be like if you could change the rules of the game?

Rules are invented. They're made up. Which means they can be uninvented, or reinvented. Today’s conversation with behaviouralist and facilitator Suzanne Rosa explores the importance of identifying, challenging, and changing the rules to serve the purpose we’re here for.

After listening, you’ll have a fresh way of thinking about how you can unlock new ways of working and living to create more of what matters.

Suzanne was born in England and now lives in Sydney. She had a really tough upbringing: born deaf, she had multiple operations to restore her hearing. Then she lived in a truck travelling around Europe before becoming a foster child and then a homeless teenager. All of this led her to dig deeply into life's range of emotions and explore how we can utilise all that living has to offer. She's the author of two books, A Flourishing Mind, and Sleeping Giants. She can be summed up in three words: energy, curiosity, and ferocity.

In this conversation, we explore:

• How our perception and lenses shape the meaning we make of the world
• There is no one truth, and why it's important to question our own perspective
• How societal conditioning often limits our ability to pioneer and think outside the box
• How listening to our own signals and questioning the rules that hold us back can create conditions for a pioneering spirit
• The importance of questioning societal norms and rules
• How to take time to regather and ground yourself before embarking on new chapters of personal growth.

You can find Suzanne at:

• Website: https://suzannerosa.com/
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/suzannewaldron/?originalSubdomain=au

Check out my services and offerings https://www.digbyscott.com/

Subscribe to my newsletter (https://www.digbyscott.com/thoughts#subscribe)

Join the Career Break community https://www.digbyscott.com/careerbreak

• Follow me on LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/digbyscott/

I'm here today with Suzanne Rosa. Who's Suzanne? Well, I'm going to read from her official bio. Now, official bios are usually pretty dry and boring, but I reckon hers is an exception and I think it's a good place to start. So here we go. Quote, Suzanne Rosa was born in England and lives in Sydney, Australia. She's fascinated with humanity and how we relate to ourselves and one another. Born deaf, she had multiple operations to restore her hearing.

She'd lived in a truck traveling around Europe before becoming a foster child and then a homeless teenager. She experienced a tough upbringing. This led her to dig deeply into life's array of emotions and how we can each utilize all that living has to offer. I love that. She's a behavioralist who studies philosophy and economics to widen her knowledge of meaning and the systems that we live in and find solace in painting as a creative out.

She's the author of two books, A Flourishing Mind and Sleeping Giants. So that'll give you a bit of an insight into Suzanne. Now, here's my experience of her. I'm going to give you three words. Energy. Curiosity and ferocity. Sue's welcome.

ha ha ha diggers i just realized there's dig deeply also in my bio and this is dig deeper how good is that

Well, you're the perfect guest. It's awesome to have you here. Now, you know what? Behavioralist. You describe yourself as a behavioralist. Like, aren't we all behavioralist? Aren't we all just behaving every day? What is a behavioralist?

Mm -hmm.

I don't think we are all just behaving. I think many of us are misbehaving. Of course, well, if you're a human, then you are naturally predisposed to understanding a bit of humanity, of course. I just had the privilege to be able to spend my life being a bit obsessed with how humans make meaning. So as a behaviouralist, I'm kind of looking at how do we make meaning within the world that we live and how do we make meaning?

How do we make meaning?

Yeah, good question. Next. Well, we make meaning, I think, based on our perception and our lens. So, you know, we're all completely and wonderfully unique. I think it's a very special thing. And I mean, you've got the neuroscience of it, of how we take in information and how we process information in our cells, then create memory and create meaning and how we then categorize it.

But then each of us are doing that every second of every moment that we're conscious. But then each of us have got a very different view. And so the perspective and the perspective perception, that's what I was trying to say. I just put two words together. I love doing that. Perspective and perception is different. I love it. My other favorite merged word is inter -twin -gle, just so everybody knows.

Yeah.

I always trip over those two and it is Friday afternoon. So as we're recording this, so.

Intertweenable. Yes.

and love it. Yeah. So yeah, so the big, big question, but yeah, I think a lot of it is perspective, is how we make meaning.

Yeah. And there's no one truth is kind of like what I'm reading into that, right? That we all have our version of what is true and what is real and what is not real. And what makes me wonder about what if we could see another's lens? You talked about the word lens, right? So we see through our own lenses. Don't you reckon a lot of the problems we have in organizations in life in general is because

Yes.

We think our lens is the lens.

Hmm. Yeah.

You've probably heard the saying the map is not the territory. I'm sure you've heard that before. I love that. It took me years to understand that. And it's like if you and I were to take a map and walk over a land together, we would come back with different stories, even though it was the same terrain we'd walked over. And so, you know, our version of how we walk across the world is going to be different to other peoples.

Yes, there is definitely a problem. And I have to say it's one of my own personal major problems is I always think I'm right. Because I am, yeah, exactly right. So that's now clarified. And it's very shocking for 50 % of the time, at least, to realize that I'm not and that there might not actually be right. There might not be a right. So yeah, I think a lot of conflict comes from that. But then if you think about why we do it, we want to protect ourselves. We want to stay safe. We want to be in a place where we feel like we've got control.

Yeah, well you are.

and righteousness to be right, I think is that, I don't know, what's your view on that?

My take is, yeah, so I've just finished writing a white paper actually this week called Mastering Facilitative Leadership. And it's all about learning as a leader to be less of the hero and more of the host. And the idea is that when you're the hero, you can show up trying to drive a meeting, to drive a group of people to make something happen. And you're the one with the answers and this is how it has to be. And you're trying to carry more than you should, which is really disempowering.

Mmm.

Right. And so shifting from I'm the hero with the answers and therefore I'm right to I don't know. And my job is actually to host the collective brilliance of these people. I think it's incredibly empowering, yet it's incredibly scary. I reckon for people to go, what do you mean I might not be right? That my view might actually be flawed. I think that's really scary for a lot of people, particularly in cultures where we're.

We're rewarded for answers for being right. I mean, you must see this a lot in the work that you do, whether it's facilitation or moderation or speaking. You know, this stuff must come up all the time, right? Right.

Right? Am I right? Yes, you're right, Digley. You're right. Validation and sponsorship, correct. Done. Yes, and that is true. And most of the work that I do really is setting people up to be, to feel safe so that they can explore publicly, you know, like you say, moderate conversations and that. You know, I won't moderate a panel or a public conversation without having first.

Fuel! Okay, my identity is intact.

briefed with everybody to help them understand the nature of exploring and that everybody's perspective is worth listening to and we can walk away with more questions and answers and sometimes that's much more exciting to watch and to think, you know, instead of sitting there and just being a repeater process. That's one of the things I don't like is being a repeater process. We just...

What does that mean?

Well, the other day I was on stage and I asked a question and there was nine people in the panel. It was a huge panel. And he just sat there and then everyone else just sat there and everyone was quiet. And I said to the audience, are the two things that are happening right now? One, I've asked a really confusing question and no one knows what I mean. Or two, I've asked a question that you can't immediately recall something to remember to repeat. So they're actually thinking new thoughts. I'm hoping it's the second one. I'm gonna turn to the panel and they were like, yeah, it is. They're like.

We are actually trying to make meaning of that. And I thought that's the most beautiful space to be in because then we're not just trying to prove a point that we've collected and kept. We are actually thinking in real time what it is that we want to contribute to. And if we're thinking new thoughts or putting new things together, then that makes for a much more interesting experience for everyone rather than everyone just watching like this. You know, if they're just listening to a conversation where it's all repeatable, that we're all just repeating everything we already know all the time.

then it's not as interesting or maybe even enlightening for everybody involved.

So what you're doing is you're facilitating a learning experience for everyone. Yeah, you're not just, OK, it's your turn, person four, what do you have to say about that? It's a.

Yeah.

And one of the guys, he was so cool, he just happened to have the mic in his hand and asked a question and he just went, I've got nothing I've used to add to this. And I was like, there, that right there, because he doesn't need to have the status of being right or to prove. How much more trust would that have given him with the people in the room who happened to be people that report to him? And it was amazing.

100 percent. You know what I wonder about? You know, well, firstly, I'm struck by the willingness of that the people on that panel to be what some people might call really vulnerable by not jumping to an answer. Right. And and so you could say that, yeah, they just that sort of person. Right. Yet I reckon there must be something you do.

And perhaps it's part of the lead in part of the briefing. But I'm also wondering what might you be doing in the moment to create that environment, create those conditions for people to be OK with not knowing.

I think a fair whack of it comes in the pre -brief because I'm pretty upfront about that, about how organic and, you know, because we were there, they were an executive team, so, and the senior leadership team were in the room. And so, you know, I'm said to them, this is not about you showcasing yourself. I also turned to the audience actually at the beginning of it and said to them, you are going to get the chance to ask questions. You've got to think these are the people who are going to be asking questions of their managers.

Haha.

Yeah.

And I said, but this is not a time for blindsiding, being tricky, trying to catch someone out. We don't have space for that here. So there's a lot of set up as to how to be appropriate and be real. And to be honest, in those processes about what people wanting to be right or wanting to be privileged or wanting to show power, I personally, as the moderator, will stop that in the moment and call it as an example of something like that happening. Not.

Yeah.

not in a scary way, but in a way that sort of promotes, I just want to say here, X. I just want to show that this is happening right now and tell me more about why that happens in the world and then get them to discuss it rather than show us behaviors that aren't. Yeah.

That's masterful. You're also inviting the audience to be active agents of what's going on. They're contributors, not spectators. And that must create a much richer dynamic for every single person in the room.

Yeah.

Exactly right.

I do always, I love the saying and I know you're the same like this, but I'd say this is not an observation. This is not observing. This is contribution and connection and conversation. So, you know, don't think you can rest on your laurels because we require presence. We require input. Yeah. Yeah.

And don't we, don't we? But this this way that you show up with people, where does this come from? Because. You know, there's. I read something that you post on LinkedIn not that long ago, which I'm paraphrasing by saying, you know, I'm I'm I know that I I meant to use my voice, right? This is my my work is to use my voice, right?

You're using your voice with questions, with observations, with challenges. Where does all of that come from? So then I'm wondering, you know, particularly like. Has it always been this way? When in your life did you realize that this is the version of you that's the best version of you, at least for now? A lot of questions there, I know.

Yeah, a couple of parts of that so I can track those. One is when I was younger, my mum was a compulsive liar. And so I grew up learning diplomacy very early and how to tell the truth but also save other people without outing them. And so very early on in my life, I had to sort of really connect into being as truthful as possible and then also diplomatic as possible so everyone sort of gets.

get saved and not embarrassed, but I don't get compromised. So that's where it comes from early on. And because you mentioned, you know, in my bio and that I had a tough upbringing, I've had to endure quite a few really difficult things in my formative years. And so I don't want to take any shit and I don't like playing games and I don't like having to wade through.

misunderstanding or uncertainty or things that basically just don't give me a clean run at something. It's not to say I don't endure hardship around me, but if I can do something to help someone else not behave that way so that we can have a clearer conversation and more truthful conversation that benefits everyone, then that's what I'll do. But I had to get that skill for a long time ago.

and what helped you.

It's not going to be one thing. Yeah.

No, it might be some people though, right? I mean, I mean, when I met you, you're working in a contact center in Perth a long time ago.

Yes. 1998 or nine. I reckon it was 1998. I was three.

Something like that. Yeah. Must've been 1999, I think.

You're a -

Yeah, we were both really young. I was 10 and, and I remember, I don't remember what we talked about. You might have a better memory than me, but I remember your energy. And when you came up and accosted me years later in Sydney or Melbourne, and you made the reconnection. I, that energy was still there. This is probably 10, 15 years later and.

Yeah, you a ten.

When I describe curiosity, fear, ferocity, passion, all of those words, they were there. And it's interesting because you back then you struck me as someone who was not going to take any shit. And you had some really good bosses, Steve Mitchinson. He must have been someone who helped you find your voice in maybe a more nuanced or rounded way. I'm thinking about that. Can you?

Yeah, Steve -o.

Can you remember back then what what was happening for you and was I'm guessing that was a time of growth for you, but maybe not.

Not strikingly so, I think there's a hell of a lot more before that, because as a homeless person, so part of what I also speak about is the kindness of strangers. So I've got a lot of stories where someone saw something in me or believed in me before I could understand that about myself, or they stepped over a line without needing to do that for an obviously young girl who was out there on her own doing her own thing. So there's plenty of stories like that.

I also very, in a very early days, there was a family down the road who kind of took me on as a surrogate child. And I only really found out more about that later in my life. Like when I was in my thirties, did I realize, I used to think I was just going over there for sleepover with my friend. But what I didn't know was I, my mom would leave me on the doorstep and then I'd be there for ages. And the, and the woman who was looking after me wouldn't know how long I was there for. And so, so there's lots and lots of things that.

happened where people really step over the line to help you. Now, Mitchell is definitely a person who I would look up to. Do you know what I think he did? Is he provided safety. Because he is a safe man. And so he was able to, because I was only 18 or 19 at that time, working there. And he was just, he was an incredibly safe man. And so I felt that container.

Yes.

working there and that's where I met you when you flew in to consult and do some leadership work with everyone there. Yeah, so there's, and then there's a whole tonne poster as well with people who, you know, like in my thirties, I had a person who I worked with and she just went far and above beyond anything. But she is Fran Berry. She is a person who you could quite definitely say has helped make me who I am today.

Hmm.

So there's just, there's a million stories, but the trend between them all, I think, is the kindness of strangers. And because that's all I had to really go on for a lot of my life.

It makes me think that we're born alone and we die alone, right? And that every great contact was once a perfect stranger. I'm paraphrasing Lady Susan Scott. There's something about you don't have to have a deep connection with someone, a history with someone to have humanity between people. And.

Absolutely. Absolutely.

And your life seems to be testament to that. And yeah, it's a very powerful idea. You know, another powerful idea we were talking offline before, as I said, what do you want to talk about, Suze? And you said, I want to talk about illusion. I want to talk about blind spots. So tell us about those ideas.

Yes.

I do, I want to, but I want to make sure that we hear from you as well, to be fair, because I actually really think you're an incredible thinker. So let me just do the worst thing possible for an interviewer and come back to you and say, when you think of illusion, what comes up for you? And remembering, though, we're talking about pioneering spirits because that's the the theory and the theme of this. Yeah, theme, sorry. So thinking of pioneerists,

Okay, that's a lovely question.

The theme.

pioneering spirits and then illusion. What does you make me?

So it's a very easy answer for me. One of the most formative books at a very formative period of my life that I read was a book called Illusions. Now the author is Richard Bach, as in like the musician B -A -C -H, and he's most famous for writing this book, Jonathan Livingston Seagull, which is also an incredibly powerful shaping book for me.

Jonathan Limbison Seagull, to paraphrase and summarize that book, is about the courage to break free and follow your passion, regardless of what the flock says. You're nodding. You've read the book or you know the book, right? You haven't? OK. Yeah, it's a very easy book you can read in a couple of hours. And this is all about the courage to find what brings you to life. And I think from that point forward, I...

No, I haven't. My listening not.

That was the path that was set for me and, you know, it unlocked my pioneering spirit. Illusions is the book after that. It took me about probably 20 or 30 reads. Again, it's a small book, but it did my head in it had these messages as a 15 year old. I could, you know, when you can taste something, but you like, I don't quite get it, but it's something there's some truth there for me. And it was that was that book for me. And in essence, this message was.

Everything's an illusion. We make it all up and therefore we can remake it, unmake it or hold on tight to the story that we tell ourselves about what's true. So coming right back to the start of our conversation. And this this idea of illusions is something that really stuck to me as well. That's like, you know, well, if the story I'm telling myself is serving me and the people that matter. Great.

Carry on. Yet, if the story I tell myself, particularly this quote from the book, which is argue for your limitations and sure enough, they're yours. And that one is so powerful and so true, right? I can't do that. No, that's not possible. no, they're an idiot. Your view, you know, your lens on it. Well, all of.

All of those are your limitations that you're putting in yourself and you can unmake them. I do a lot of work with organizations on uncovering the rules that hold them back, hold them in stasis, limit them. And, you know, when we went through COVID, there was a lot of rules that were busted or at least challenged. And so I'm helping organizations and their leaders identify, well, what are the ones that don't serve you anymore? And let's rewrite those. And that all comes back from that book, Allusions.

So a very long answer to your question, what does it mean to me? It means a massive amount. And so when you said, I want to talk about illusions, I'm like, I felt a little tingle go up my spine. So thank you for bringing that word. So what comes up for you as I share that? And let's make some links.

Mommy!

And I, it's, it's incredible.

Lots of links here because for me, if you connect pioneering spirits and illusion and also then we connect what we talked about being right and wanting to protect ourselves and stay comfortable, then the thing that's going to get in the way of pioneering is comfort. And it is about connection to feeling sort of like you don't want to overstep or you don't want to sort of...

protrude past something that you already know you can control, which is also an illusion. This might be a mind field that we go into, or mind field. But what I think fascinates me, and I don't have all the answers to, to be clear, is that I think so many of us live in an illusion. And I mean, from a societal perspective, from a

yeah, let's go there.

from an economic perspective, from the fact that we are being conditioned far beyond the natural versions of conditioning. To be a civic person is to be conditioned because I always think about a kid, you know, you see a two year old banging a spoon in a cafe and then the sound is phenomenal for them, but for everyone else it's absolutely excruciating. But if you think about it from the kid's perspective, that's just awesome.

If you want to live in a civil society, we start to get conditioned to say, you know, don't do that. That's making a lot of noise. Or you can't say fuck in McDonald's or, you know, as a five year old or whatever it might be that's happening that we get pulled back from to live in a civil society that has both unwritten societal laws as well as actual laws, whichever place in the world that you are in. And if you think about that, that's that's that's necessary if we aren't just going to be raping and pillaging and murdering and doing all the stuff.

Yeah.

to one another that we don't want to do. But then where then the question I have is the line in this day and age where pioneering has to overtake some form of comfort or feeling in control or feeling that I am able to surpass something that is expected of me and in fact I may even be outed for or judged for or just limit.

against the slipstream for, then that can isolate you. It can take you out of the pack. It can make you feel alone. And so there's a lot of biological needs for belonging and safety. But what I'm worried about is that our community and our society are being so fully conditioned by other people's agendas, such as beauty industries and pharmaceutical industries, political aspiration.

to keep us in a place where we are conforming in order to fuel the profit machine of capitalism. And so, so where, so I still live in that society. I don't, I don't live in a commie van off the grid with no electricity. I don't use, you know, I use an iPhone and so, so, so where inside there do we stop and think about if we want to actually pioneer something, what's worth pioneering and what am I willing to be?

to be standing out for and how will that affect me? And I think there's a lot more illusion than we realize.

This is playing right into the idea of the book. There's a few threads to unpick, right? So one is, what's the cost of conforming? Like both for us as individuals, but also for society. If you think of it as a spectrum between conforming and pioneering, if we're too far towards the conforming end, what's the cost of that?

Thanks.

Yeah. Everything is a spectrum in my view. So there's going to be different costs for different reasons, because there are some people that I would promote to conform because it would be better for them. So, you know, because if someone is deeply unhappy or depressed or feels incredibly isolated, because they don't have any sense of normalcy, like there is a reason there is a majority of anything. And so we have to take that into consideration. But the deeper costs for those that actually would like to step up,

further along the pioneering spirit line and less of the conforming. If they're stuck in conforming and they are meant to be stepping forward, then I think there's a deep cellular depression. And when I talk about depression in that sense, I mean, actually to depress something, to push something down. And then where is the voice then? Where are the voices that are necessary to support those that want to sit,

in a comfort space because it is right for them. Who's advocating on behalf of them? Because we all can't be the pioneer. We all have to play our different roles. But if we're stuck in the place where we shouldn't be, so it can be the other way around. You can have a pioneer who's, sorry, someone who is a conformer who really is trying to pioneer but makes them super unhappy, it can be the other way around. So it's like, it's anything. If you're in a place where you shouldn't be, then...

then dullness will occur. And I'm pretty sure this wasn't what you're supposed to be doing.

I was going to ask you, how do you know?

Well, how do you know when you're in a place you shouldn't be? And I'm wondering what what what's your personal experience of being in a place you shouldn't be? How did what does your body tell you? What does your mind say or think?

Hmm.

Mm -hmm. We'll come back to you as well there because I think that would be nice to know because I don't... Yes, we go first and then I'll do all the talking.

Yeah, yeah, I'm happy to share. OK, so when I'm in a place, I don't know if I would call it where I shouldn't be yet. It might be. I love that idea of cellular depression. The where where I feel like what I feel is frustration and annoyance. But it's not a it's not acute, right? It's not like.

with.

I'm stomping around with steam coming out my ears metaphorically. It's more of a chronic sort of almost an angst thing that I could be spending my time doing something else. Now, interesting enough, this week. It's a Friday afternoon. We're recording this. I've had an incredibly creative week, written a bunch of stuff, talked to some amazing people, and I'm really far from that feeling.

And so the opposite of it for me is a sense of possibility. And what else could I be doing now? What am I? There's a sense of excitement. So, again, flipping that, I reckon when I'm in the wrong spot, if that's not quite the right term, is it? But, you know, in a space where I'm like, bloody hell, you know, I could be doing different things. That's probably what's going on in my mind. And there's an I'm sleeping less well.

Okay. Yep.

And there's a kind of a feels a bit hollow. And and I'm trying to put myself in the shoes of someone who's working in an organization. They get to every Friday. I'm wondering, they're feeling like that every Friday. I wonder what that is for them. Is it the same thing? Do they have sparks of brilliance during the week? People listening to this, there's something about. The tuning into your body and going, OK, so how satisfying was that week from a?

Mmm.

sense of cellular depression or was it something else? So there's a bit of a woolly answer, but there's something. Yeah.

Well, no, I get it. And each of us are different. Each of us have those signals. But my question to find the signals is, if I stop right this minute, literally like right this minute, what else would I be doing if I'm doing it? That gives me an opportunity to see if there's something else. And if there's a good reason, you know, because like,

Mm -hmm. Great question.

Basically, if I wasn't with you now, the next thing I'd like to be doing is drinking a margarita. I mean, that will happen in the next 30 minutes anyway. So, yeah, well, I was gonna say this is water, but it isn't, it isn't, I would rather be in Italy on a boat. It actually isn't. I don't want that more than this. So I play this game with myself all the time. If I wasn't doing this, what would I be doing? And it gives me an opportunity to check if I'm playing my life by my wants and needs.

Why aren't we multitasking?

That's beautiful.

And then, so it doesn't matter what the criteria inside, because everyone's criteria is different. And the question is, would I be wanting to do something different right now? And if you do, then how did you make up the rules of your life?

That's beautiful. It reminds me of a beautiful quote from Tim Winton, the Australian author. And he, and I can't remember the quote exactly, but he's from Western Australia. And he has this evocative quote where he is looking out to the West over the Indian Ocean. And the line that sticks with me is there's nothing else I'd rather be doing. There's no place I'd rather be.

And that kind of sums up what you're talking about, right? That when you are able to answer that question of I stop now, would I just continue doing what I'm doing because it's the nothing else I'd rather be doing, no place I'd rather be. If you can answer yes to that, then you're in the right spot. And how do we create the conditions?

Absolutely.

for people to do that, right? Because I think that's the springboard for a pioneering spirit, right? If you can answer yes, then you can go beyond comfort into courage. How do we create those conditions? What do you do to create those conditions?

Well, I don't believe other people's version of condition is for me for a start. Like, sorry, anyone who lives with me knows me or loves me because I'm the easiest chicken to be around. Because I'm wonderfully and annoyingly one of those people that's just like, if I don't understand why that's been cast upon me or that's an expectation of me and it doesn't make sense to me, then I will question it to the end of the days.

That's pioneering right there.

Yeah.

And so that's my version of that. So it's like, I want to know why. And so there's some things I don't agree with that I have to do to be in a civil society because I've chosen to live a majority life. And so there are some road rules that everyone would understand as stupid, even if we do understand why they're there. But of course, the consequences far outweigh the reason for me to break those rules. Existentially or from a societal perspective or a relational perspective, it's like, why?

I'm going to talk more pleasure type things. Why can't you have alcohol at eight o 'clock in the morning? Who said so? Why can't you have chocolate for breakfast kiddos? You know, like all these things.

Well, interesting. You know, you just triggered something, right? So, you know, when you go to an airport lounge and you're flying overseas in the international lounge and it's 8 a and people are drinking champagne. Yeah, and it's kind of like, well, I'm out of a normal environment so I can do these things. Right. And there's something about getting out of the normal environment to experiment with new ways of being. And.

Woo!

Neaten chips.

I think there's a lot in that. So break your habit, break your norm.

I agree with this completely and if you think about it, there's no good reason other than it's perceived that we can't be trusted to moderate and use our own discretion to do what we want when we want and so I will have what I want when I want. I am not out of control. I am not in any way, shape or form doing anything that I shouldn't be doing because I do something that's outside of an expected scenario. That is a version of illusion that I'm talking about. So,

we are expected to do certain things in certain ways. And so then we start to conform to a bigger agenda and without understanding why we're conforming to that, which ultimately I believe is always going to come back to some form of greed, societal greed that props up.

politicians, pharmaceutical companies, you name it. It's feeding an agenda that isn't going to serve even the people who think they're in control.

I think what you're saying, let me test this, is we're free to make choices more than we realize. And the best way to do that is to be mindful about the choices we're making. Is that a fair summary?

Yeah. And also, yes, and the consequences of moving through comfort because if you start, because you will be judged and then other people who can't move past that, you'll lose in your gang, in your club because you're the weird one that doesn't do that. And so there's a lot of consequences to being a certain way if it's not in the majority.

And we have to be mindful about what we, you know, because there's certain things that I wouldn't do even so. There's certain things I like, I can't break the law in terms of like tax and fudge my taxes. It's just, I can't, I could, but it's illegal. I'm talking about, for me, it's about moral, moral conditioning. And so, and what are the consequences and what's worth the criteria of the consequence. And I'm willing to take a lot of consequences to buck some of the system.

because I think it's better for everybody if we can start to swing slightly more, it's a bit more...

Yeah, there's a deep conviction there, Sue's in that, you know, I'm willing to take some of those consequences, take some of those discomfort. It's interesting. The reason I started the changemakers program and community was for that exact reason that there's a lot of pioneering spirits in organizational life or in society that feel hamstrung. Right. They want they're just on that cusp. They want to go and make something amazing happen. Yet there's these shackles.

Yeah.

Yes.

Right. And the shackles can be cultural norms, stories in your head, both of those things. Maybe there are rules. Right. And I was inspired by something James Clear, who wrote Atomic Habit says, you know, I know he's a favorite author of yours as well. And, you know, if you want to change behavior, join a community where your desired behavior is their normal behavior. And this idea of surrounding yourself with people.

Yes.

who don't just make you feel safe, but make it normal to do things differently. And we're not talking about a cult. We're talking about removing that suffocating environment of, no, this is how we do things here. And I.

already in a massive cult? Why not being a cult? I'm like, cool, being a cult, is the cult doing good things? This is the question, like if the kibbutz or the cult or the place that you're going to be in is doing, like the religion is amazing if it's doing good things. You know, it's like, there's so, I think it's just about going, what is actually happening? What's the occurrence happening? And if it's overwhelmingly wholesome good.

Is it called Planet Earth? What is that cult?

then let's take the labels off what we think should or shouldn't be. You know?

I think, you know, this is this is feeling really philosophical, which I love. Right. We're both philosophers at heart, I think. And there's something about, you know, how do you just say what good is? The good might be, you know, eating jelly babies all day because it makes me feel amazing. Is it really good? You know, and there's something about, you know, I think politics is all always about the debate of what is good, you know, what is good for society and.

Mm.

So is it doing something good? You could probably all I mean, Donald Trump would say he's doing good things, isn't he? You know, there's there's something.

Yeah, between that and actual psychopaths like so from a psychology perspective here that there is a difference between the illusion of good and actually what's good because when you when you get to the root cause of something what's the driver of that and if the driver is to win to compete is to to dominate then no that's not good it can be masqueraded as good like jelly beans all day can be marascos.

masqueraded as good, that is going to affect your weight and your cholesterol if you do that all day, every day. And so it's about what's the overarching driver and the intent and then what is the overwhelming outcome of the majority going to be of doing that behavior. And does it serve others or is it just serving you?

I think that last point, does it serve others? You know, it's rising above our own ego to go, what, what am I actually here for? And it inevitably ends up at I'm in service of people and planet in some form. Right. And what brings up for me, what are you, if you were to say, here's what I'm leading on or here's what I'm leading towards in terms of serves of people and planet in some way, how would you sum that up? So this for you.

me it's about fairness. That's one word that drives because I think there has to be a minimum level of acceptable provision for people and the way that people are treated and what they receive from the world around them. The disparity between access for some people in some worlds and others and the privilege and the power and others is so far apart that it is just not fair.

Why fairness?

And so for me, that comes from a place of greed and it comes from a place of the sort of overexertion of attainment and achievement and get, get, get kind of culture. It's come from all the places we understand the revolution, industrial revolution, and coming through the production era and coming into efficiencies and effectiveness processes where we start to become quite sort of oriented towards manufacturing. I get that we've been through this process of ease and consumption and then let's just consume, consume, consume.

that's where it all gets born. And so then we just start chasing basically the dollar and the status and the ego and the attainment and all the things that everyone listening to understands and knows. But for me personally, it's about bringing us back from that to make sure that our success measures and who we are are reoriented towards a more fair distribution of access for people to get at least the very minimum that everyone deserves and nobody's starving.

and nobody doesn't have the opportunity to live well with health and a form of education. It's simple.

What are the seeds of that for you? You know, the way you speak, it there's so much conviction there. What can you mention greed a number of times through chat? Where does that come from for you?

Well, to not be overly sort of overthink about it. It's just like I was not treated fairly for so much of my childhood and I'm just like I don't want to be like that.

Yeah, and you don't want others to be like that as well.

I don't want to be like it. I don't want others to be like it. It's not necessary. I mean, the suffering, if you like, you stand in a slum or you stand in an squalor or you stand in a place where people are marginalized. If you stand there and you see it and you smell it and you taste it and then, you know, you're right there with it. You recognize, you know, the polarity.

Yeah.

in what's available in different places for different reasons. And I put myself into those scenarios on purpose to understand more about the world. And that comes from not wanting that of others. Mm. Mm.

Yeah.

You went to Kenya not that long ago and I'm just making a leap there in our minds. And tell us about that and if you can link it to what you were just sharing.

Well, when I went to live in a, for about five weeks or so, a slum in Africa in an orphanage, 4 .4 million people in my direct vicinity were in the most squalor and poverty that you can imagine, like literally that you can imagine in the world. And it was the first time I realized what a government was for in the face of one completely abandoning their own people. And...

It was the first time I've had a really tough childhood, but this was the first time that I ever thought this is actually impossible. And I'll give examples, specific examples to make sense of it because they asked me to film on my phone what it was like, and they asked me to send pictures and put them on Facebook so that other people in my world would understand what their world was like. And I felt really uncomfortable about it. Like I was kind of, you know,

exposing and exploiting what I was standing in and then like showing off to the world what it was like. Look at me, I'm here. I didn't even plan to post anything, but they asked me to and I ended up incidentally raising all this money and going to the bank every single day and taking it out of my bank account and then going to buy food and mattresses and all sorts of things. Well, one lady on Facebook, I had this picture of this tiny little child just covered in crap and bites and

crud and dirt and malnourished, standing in front of this disgusting area that was full of poo and mud and the lady said, I don't want to be rude or misunderstand, but why don't they just clean up a little bit? And it was in that moment where I went, I get what she's saying, because I would have thought that, but if they had water, they would drink it.

If they had water, they would plant seeds with it. They have poison water that they boil and they share that between 15 people. There are no emergency services. There are no doctors. There is no police. There is no clean water. There is no food. People were selling their children. They were prostituting their children and themselves. It is an incredible

incredibly different place to be a part of.

And when you see that and know that, and that comes from a government abandoning and forgetting their people.

And so when I then use that as a comparison to understand here in Australia, a friend of mine said to me, it's really important that you compare Australia to Africa, but it's also really important that you compare Cottesloe to Carartha. Because any kind of comparison of disparity is important for us to know because indigenous people of this country also

can live in extreme circumstances like that.

Just for listeners who may not be familiar with Kodislo or Karatha, can you describe the difference?

Yes, so Colesloe is a beautiful seaside town in WA and it's gorgeous with lots of lovely people swimming and ice creams and bars. There's a great bar on the front there. Very expensive houses and lovely trees and you know surf life saving club and you go up to Carartha and you know there's mining towns and there's rural.

and very expensive houses.

poverty, the people don't have access to buy nappies or food, it takes 400 kilometres to buy, to travel, to buy things like that for particularly indigenous people. The jobs are absolutely not available for people there. And also the type of culture where indigenous people can be in grave danger from other people judging them and not being able to understand the natural way in which they want to live. And so they therefore are cut off from resources.

So the comparison between Kenya and Australia, Kodaslo and Karatha, it's about the difference and what you can learn from the difference. Can you tell us how did that experience change you, the Kenya experience?

Mm.

Well, I came back to Australia and I couldn't speak anymore on stage for a bit. I did a couple of times and as I in the middle of speaking about the stuff that I spoke about, which was about this sort of thing. When I say this sort of thing, I mean about how to understand your own self and how to live the best possible life you can and how you make up your own rules and emotional intelligence and connection to yourself and people around you.

But I realized that what I was saying was predominantly for white people. What I was saying was predominantly for people with access to that already. And I no longer really knew what I knew anymore. So I stopped speaking. I think it's important to stop speaking when you're now incongruent with what you know. You have that.

Just a bit like the people on stage that you were moderating.

Yeah, yeah. And so it really, it changed the way, it changed the way I think about the world. It changed what I'm willing to contribute to. It changed what I question. It changed what I'll stand up for. And it changed the depth of compassion and understanding for everybody who is in a trap. Everybody who is in a trap. And I don't... Because...

Hence the illusions, the power of the idea of illusions, right?

People who have access and are in privilege are also in a trap. It's just a more comfortable one.

Yeah, the Gilded Cage, right? I was talking to another guest earlier about what keeps us secure, keeps us secured. And there's Danny Williams and that that idea is what you're alluding to, that we all have some sort of anchor, some sort of thing that might keep us secure. But coming back to pioneering spirits, it also keeps us secured. And it sounds like the

Mmm. Mmm.

trip to Kenya in some way just really shone a light on how much when you're back in your home country, you have got that might be limiting you. There's something there that's pretty profound. And.

Yes.

And to bring that around to the type to people who will be listening to this because it is relevant and that is when if we are listening and we go my goodness you know I should do something more yes you should but it doesn't have to be helping people in Kenya it can be breaking the rules in the business that is only focused on profit and and doesn't have other measures of success like community commitment or helping people to rise in the community from which your profits can go towards.

It's about how you treat people within your organization that has a ripple effect outside of the community. And so it doesn't have to be this grandstanding, I'm going to go to Kenya and do the thing. It's question what is happening inside the very walls of which you live and change that.

That's fabulous. It reminds me of when you talked about measures. There's an economist, Catherine Trebek. She's Australian, actually. She happens to live in Scotland now. And she heads up a thing, I think it's called the Wellbeing Alliance. And it's all about wellbeing economics. And one of her metrics that she has a vision for society isn't about GDP.

Thank you.

as the key metric, which we know is really flawed. It is how many girls ride their bikes to school each day. And behind that is so many indicators of a healthy community, healthy society, you know, safety, physical well -being, connection to community, all of these things that we don't necessarily put down on a balance sheet or a PNL, yet they're

Mmm.

That's beautiful. Yeah.

indicative of what it means to have a healthy society. You know, and she's really challenging that as you've just prodded all of us to do, which is to question, well, what are we actually here for? I think that's your work. I want to ask you a question, Suze, about your growth. You strike me as someone who is ever growing, right? Ever from those first days that we met when you were three and I was 10.

And.

Yeah. Yeah.

And today's skin was pure and...

Ha ha!

still is and. This I'm really interested in. This question, how what's your growth edge now? What's the stuff that you're. Learning a bit like when I read illusions, I'm like, there's something there for me to learn. I just want to grasp it. I'm wondering what that territory is for you at the moment.

And ice creams were 60 cents, I'm joking.

Mm. Mm.

been a funny spot actually on that front because I think I might be something so this is one of the you know how we were saying before how do you recognize where you're at how do you know where you're at you know is your body giving you signals or it was something else and I can answer that now in the face of this question sometimes I have to stop and pause and sometimes I go blank and in that blankness which is where I am now even though I know I sound really articulate

I get that I'm not been blowing smoke. I know that I, but that stuff I know. My next, my next phase, I have a sense of, but I can't quite grasp it. And I think I have consequences to consider which ones I'm willing to take or not, because I think there's a place I could go which would make me very publicly open to exposure and judgment and.

and I'm maybe too sensitive for that. Or do I wanna just stay in my beautiful house in Sydney and live this, I've got a new life here. I've been in Sydney for a few years and I have a beautiful partner and I'm really, really happy and I haven't had that for a very, very long time, if ever. And so there's a part of me that's like, I just wanna have some fun and I wanna sit in the joy of love and being in the place that I'm enjoying.

And I believe when I've had a fill of that to a degree is not to say, all right, out with it. It's to say, I have that now. I can also now add on this potential that could interrupt my life if I do some of the stuff that I think I'm destined for. And I don't know if that's going to be another couple of years away yet.

I love your awareness around that. And I think there's a both and depending on your time frame, right? You know, if it was like right now. Yeah, yeah, there's something. It makes sense to me. It sounds like right now is the not taking stock, but it's kind of like a gathering of strength. Gathering of energy time for you. And I really relate to that. And, you know, I've.

I don't know what to do because I'm not a mind reader. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yes. Yeah.

went through marriage separation a few years ago. And it was really important for me to, there's a lovely saying in Maori, which is Tūranga Waiwai. And I translate that as your place to stand, where you feel strong and connected. And the place I live now is a place that is my Tūranga Waiwai. It's one of my places. I have others in the world, one in the Northwest of Western Australia, where I go every year for a surfing, windsurfing trip.

Yet to me, I instinctively knew that there was a this was a period of just regathering. Grounding, and I sense that's what it is for you and you are having fun, too, for sure. Yet there's this eternal pioneering spirit in you, so that is not going to be that's not the full story, right? This is a chapter in a book.

Yes.

Exactly. And it's like, choosing, choosing this is choosing to keep everything like, well, keep a lot within me and not share it. And it goes against even what I'm talking about, because, you know, there's that element for me, which is about, you know, help others. So I already do, I still do that. But the growth part, it could be pretty exponential, I reckon, and be a go for it. And that will change, it will change the way I live my life. And I, and I think I need to choose that.

Yes.

Mm -hmm.

Yeah, who's to say growth is linear?

at the right time.

That's beautiful. Another question on learning and growth. So I always love to ask this one towards the end of a conversation, which is, what have you learned through this conversation?

Okay, I have to think about that because that's a repeated question.

What have you learned through this conversation?

And I feel like I'm on stage moderating you right now as you sit with the question.

and then I'm not going to whack out an answer just because I want to really think about it.

I think... gone.

I'll tell you what, while I buy you time, I will talk about what I've learned, which is that change is not linear. It's not necessarily learning, it's more of a reminder. And this is just this idea that we need to go through chapters and each chapter doesn't have to be the same as the last and it doesn't have to be a linear build upon from the last, right? That we might sense that we're regressing.

Yes, beautiful.

Mmm.

Yes.

Mm -hmm.

And isn't that something I would love to see in organizational life is that we don't have to be relentlessly growing every quarter or every year. We can take a longer view, right? And that there's chapters of rest, there's chapters of going for it. Yeah, that's something that I've been reminded on. So I'm wondering what's there rattling around in your brain as you've been listening to me reflect.

Mm. Mm.

Mm.

Well, I couldn't say it's going to be a learning semogy like a moral reminder, but also an observation of just generosity of you and having this conversation and being genuinely interested to ask questions and to share perspectives. But also for the fact that I hadn't said anything to you about allusion until just before we pressed record. And that is one of your most fundamental sort of shaping books.

and it reminds me that the universe is always doing its thing.

Ahahaha!

always doing its thing.

That is so nice. It reminds me of another book that was seminal in my thinking about leadership development, which is one called Synchronicity. And you know, the universe is always doing a thing. It's Synchronicity by a fellow called Joe Jaworski.

Right.

And people might think, that's such a wee thing to say, but it's not. You just look at physics, you just look at the way the world works, you look at anything that is all provable and it's absolutely... Be careful of those solutions.

We are all connected and it's all an illusion. And what a lovely place to pause. So where can people find you, connect with you if they're inspired to do so?

on the streets around just call my name I'll just turn up like in the witch from there yeah call me and I'll be there and all the good places just put my name in the Google you'll find me

Pachoo!

Suzanne Rosa, you will find her at the top of your list when you put that into the search bar. That's awesome. So it's been such a delight. You know what I've loved is that it's felt really real and raw every time, every time we get together. It's real and raw and.

Yes, although we can have a lot of fun too. I do remember when we went to a show in Perth, we had a great time. Yeah.

Yeah, we were in Perth and Sydney and Melbourne, wherever else we've been. And let's make a date to do this in person at some point really soon, because it's been far too long since we've actually seen each other in 3D.

Yes.

Yeah, thanks Stig, it's been really wonderful and your series is amazing and thanks for asking really beautiful questions.

Thanks, Suze. See you soon.

See ya.