Discover how NFTs are transforming real-world assets, explore cutting-edge tokenization technologies, and get insights into the future of Web3. From industry breakthroughs to visionary predictions, this episode is packed with valuable info for anyone passionate about the crypto world.

Deep Dive with AdLunam Co-founder Nadja Bester as she is joined by Edwin Mata Navarro from Brickken, Patrick Tobler from NMKR, Anastasia Nizhegorodtceva from Defactor

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DeFi Connect -The RWA Token Journey

SPEAKERS

Nadja Bester (Co-Founder of AdLunam)

Edwin Mata Navarro (CEO & Co-Founder of Brickken)

Patrick Tobler (CEO & Founder of NMKR)

Anastasia Nizhegorodtceva (Head of Growth at Defactor)

Nadja Bester 2:11

Hey everyone, I see the rooms filling up. So I think let's start just by doing a soundcheck. If you can hear me, please give me your favorite emoji. So I know I'm not speaking into the void. All right, awesome. And then I see Anastasia ,you've just been made a speaker, welcome. Maybe we do a soundcheck with you as well. So see everything is good. Are you in Hong Kong at the moment?

Anastasia 2:33

Yes.Thank you. I'm here in Hong Kong, and can hear you pretty well.

Nadja Bester 2:38

So all right. Awesome. Patrick. Hey, I see you're a speaker. Where are you dialing in from today.

Patrick 2:46

Hey Nadja, thank you for having me. I'm actually in Japan right now in Kyoto.

Nadja Bester 2:50

Okay, see, we're all in Asia, I'm in Thailand. So it's like definitely Asia leading the pack here today. So we are just waiting also for Edwin to be made a speaker. In the meantime guys, I'm gonna get started. So we can have some more time for questions at the end. So hey, web3 world this is Nadja Bester and you are listening to the future of NFTs. Future of NFTs is sponsored by AdLunam Web3’s first and only Engage to Earn investment ecosystem. The show is recorded live on Twitter spaces every Tuesday at 1pm UTC. Oh, and by the way, X just launched a new video feature for spaces. So we'll definitely be trying that out real soon. Let us know if you prefer audio or video. And then do check out our Spotify for previous episodes always filled with insider Industry Insights. Couple of announcements from AdLunam. I will be speaking at the wiki finance Expo in Hong Kong this week, 17th of May. So if you're in Hong Kong, do reach out. I know that Anastasia and I are going to be meeting up so that's awesome. Also, Jason Fernandes, my co-founder and I will be speaking at crypto Expo Dubai in on the 20th and 21st of May. So if you're in Dubai also do reach out. All right. So onto today's show very excited about this one, we have got an hour full of RWAs alphas lined up for you. Now our RWAS, real world assets organization has been a leading web3 narrative lately, especially towards the tail end of this most recent bear market that we all survived. And of course we all have a lot of questions because we've been hearing audibly RWAs everywhere. So that's why we bringing you a wonderful hour of experts sharing knowledge and experience on RWAs as well as their unique perspectives on the role that NFTs can play in putting real world assets on chain. So if you'd like To add to the conversation, drop your questions in the show chat or DM, the AdLunam team at AdLunam Inc., All right well onto today. So joining us is Anastasia Nizhegorodtceva. Anastasia, I'm so sorry if I'm butchering your surname, head of growth. All right, I practiced a lot. Head of growth, I believe Defactor, the RWA toolkit tailored to unique business models interoperable across multiple blockchain networks. Then we also have Patrick Tobler who is the founder and CEO of NMKR, which is Cadano’s leading provider of minting and tokenization infrastructure, empowering NFT technology and digital asset management. And then finally, we have Edwin Matta Navarro, co founder and CEO of Brickken. Brickken enables businesses to create and manage digital tokens, backed by tokenized, RWAs through a comprehensive token suite. So as you can tell, we have a panel here today that really knows the ins and outs of RWAs as it stands in the web3 space today. So without further ado, I'm gonna get started it when we haven't done your soundcheck. So I'm just going to start with you. What I would like from each and every one of you, give me a brief introduction of who you are, you know, whether that is how you came into web3, what your experience was before web3, whatever you feel is relevant. And then yeah, let us know. Why is this something that you have decided to put your energy and your focus into? Why is this so significant for the web3 space and for the broader business landscape? Anyone? Let's start with you. welcome.

And I think we all having a bit of trouble hearing you. So maybe you can log back in? I'm not sure it's with the spaces sometimes it’s spaces, more bugs than actually performing at its optimum best. So let me start then with Patrick. Patrick, can we start with you? Same question. Introduce yourself and tell us why RWAs?

Patrick 7:44

Nadja Bester 9:23

I'm looking forward to diving deeper into these topics with you tonight. Thank you, Patrick and Anastasia, What about you? why are you in web3? What is your journey?

Anastasia 9:36

Thank you. Thank you also for the reminder about the sustainability of the things that we focus on in web3. So I definitely want to dive into the sustainability of RWAs during this conversation. And when I hope that we can hear you now. Welcome. I hope that's not premature. I hope I can hear you and your please do let us know, what was your journey like to get into RWAs and what is your background?

I'm not sure if that's me, I can't hear you.

I'm also checking with my team. I think no one can hear you at once or well, when you come back in when you're ready, we'll have you go on the stage. In the meantime, let's start with a few fundamentals. I mean, we hear the term RWAs all of the time, it's really one of the hottest narratives or what has been lately. Well, what does it mean exactly? What are the RWAs we say that it's real world assets? What does that mean to the average person? How do we explain it? You know, the kind of explain it to me like I'm five approach, what is the simplest way set? The simplest way to explain why is it important? And why is it a better choice than the alternative? Which of course, are assets that are not on chain? And so can we start with you?

Yeah, absolutely. I think RWAs today stands for real world assets. Right? And it's not necessarily that it's real world assets versus real world assets, I guess it's more about, I suppose, looking at this asset class, which encompasses a lot of different types of assets like properties and invoices from trade finance, or electric vehicle, power, renewables, and precious metals and credits. I don't know there's so many of them. I think all of them are coming from the traditional space. So if you've never heard of Article eight tokenization, you can just think of have assets from traditional industries that have value and tend to either appreciate or be involved in some way or form in the business model of traditional industries. And now we're talking about Article eight tokenization. But what it really means is that now you can have a representation of each of those assets on chain, which is essentially a token. And that brings in a lot of benefits, obviously, also has a lot of different disadvantages, or difficulties related to that. I'm sure we can, you know, discuss that further on the call today, but basically, that is, in a nutshell, how I look at RWA tokenization.

Patrick, I would love for you to take the answer that Anastasia, give, of course, add to it if you want to, but then also explain how NFTs and RWAs together represent an opportunity that perhaps is not as strong with these two technologies separately.

Yeah, I think the answer she gave was already extremely good. And basically on point, I think, you know, my take on RWAs is that everything that somehow is connected with the real world can probably be considered and RWA. And in the end, you know, I'm a programmer. So I look at it very much from a technical perspective. And I think that, you know, NFTs, at the moment, of course, have this kind of stigma to them, that they're mostly eight pictures and stuff like that. But at its core, NFTs are just the technology, they're just the token, and the token just exists once, right. And that's it. And if there is an RWA that, for example, is very unique, like a diamond, which is something we tokenized before, you don't necessarily need to have fungible tokens for that you can create one NFT and bind it to this one diamond. And in our case, what we found with that is we essentially said, Okay, if you have the NFT, the diamond is stored in a secured world. And once you want to receive the diamond, you have to burn the NFT and basically destroy the NFT. And in the meantime, you can, you know, trade the NFT freely, which creates a lot of opportunities, because then what happens is that the whole, like, trading flow is much easier, you can literally just go and send it from a wallet to another wallet in seconds. And you can trade it a million times in a day, essentially. And traditionally, with diamonds, that was very difficult, because you have to have the physical diamond, you have to send it somewhere, you have to secure it insured, all that kind of stuff. So in that case, I think it's a really good example of how using NFTs to basically create RWAs on chain can really bring a benefit to the like, overall market. And that's kind of what it's all about. Like, it doesn't matter if we build all these tools that are only crypto specific, we need to solve actual real problems. And that's the only way how we can get new users into the space.

Fantastic answer. Thank you, Patrick. Edwin, are you with us? Hopefully were able to hear you know,

oh my god, can you hear me?

Yes. Fantastic. You know, it's always the best moment of my life when Twitter has been acting up and suddenly the voice comes through. So yes, welcome. So happy to have you here. This so much questions that you'll behind what so please introduce yourself and pretty much say anything you want at this point?

I'll say that Elon Musk will stay with Tesla and get out of Twitter. It has been a downfall for the social media too. Well, that's a joke either way. Well, my background is a lawyer, M&A, I was doing mergers and acquisition back in Europe for over 10 years. And I always saw how assets are extremely inefficient in the sense that all these paperwork the analysis of how it is the valuation is very obviously obtain offline. So all of these kind of like nuisance led me to try to trigger an optimization phase which are found through tokenization and blockchain back in 2017,18. My first document that I read in the blockchain was not the Bitcoin white paper was actually Chinese white paper because I was amazed about Oracles which at the time I had no idea what they were. So I went down the rabbit hole and here I am with Britain. So I mean, real world assets without a single doubt is going to revolutionize pretty much financial markets just because of how easy the axis of that ease and how available. So financial markets is a very asymmetric markets, because there's big players out there with enough data and power to move markets and then you have the retail who have no access to such information. And there is this asymmetry that the markets are not fair. So when you push everything to transparent boundaries and make everything into a more legit market, then new, there's a new evolution of it. So that's why do these barriers onboard the retail but at the same time, the big players can still play if not, black rug wouldn't have token as its own fun or will have an impact and insecurities. So with this kind of like new a symmetry of information or symmetric now, it's going to be very interesting new financial markets that we're going to be onboarding ourselves. But as of now, I have zero doubts that all financial markets at some point of time being five or 10 years will definitely run on chain just because of everything as a collective it brings. So thank you very much for having you this space. I did my three minute pitch. Hopefully you liked it.

Awesome. Yeah, I think we have thank you so much to all three of you, I think we have so much just to dig into and already I think the clock is ticking away. So let's get stuck in that I think the first question that I want to get through is probably one of the most pertinent ones. You know, throughout the and I think all of us on the on the call today have been in the space for quite some time, of course, we've seen regulatory changes come and go. In the beginning of a new innovation, you know, there's always this sort of Goldilocks period during which a lot of innovation can flourish. But before long, regulatory oversight steps in and a lot of times, it's heavy handed. Now in the case of RWAs, I mean, now the conversation that is that is being joined by AWS is this, is it a security conversation? So what I would like to know from you guys, looking into the short, medium and long term future where RWAs is going in terms of regulation, are they going to be considered securities? If so, what about all the investors, for example, the US market that then would not be able to participate in this narrative? I would love to know, Patrick, and we start with you perhaps? What is regulation going to do to RWAs?

Yeah. So before I start talking about this, you know, I'm not a lawyer. I'm not a very low driven person. But I do have a team, a great team around me, that always tells me what we can do and what we can't do. So I think I picked up a little bit. And essentially, I think it's pretty clear like in Europe, actually, it's relatively clear that if you tokenize traditional financial assets or you tokenize stocks or whatever, right, that it's definitely a security there is no there's no question about it, it's it doesn't get treated differently just because it's on the blockchain. Right. And I think that's a big mistake that many people make. A lot of the stuff we have on crypto right now is very unregulated and very, like gray area, I would say. And the reason for that is because it only exists on the blockchain. But once we tap into this physical world into this real world, then there is no way of avoiding, you know, the, the laws of the country, right. So we have to figure out a way to basically follow all these regulations, while still making it very accessible to everyone. And, and we are very focused on as I said, the European market, we basically are very aware that many of the things that we do will only be accessible to accredited investors in the US, or potentially not even all of them in the US. But the way we are structuring our outlook, RWA is essentially, that we make sure that that secondary market stays as open as possible. So the idea is, okay, you bring it on chain, once you have to do KYC, you have to be from certain countries, you need to maybe be an accredited investor, all of this stuff, so you're able to participate in the sale. But then once it's on chain, it actually is, you know, tradable like normal NFT, essentially, and that's, that's really cool and powerful. And then once you want to off ramp again, and once you for example, if we started talking about stocks, want to get the actual stock or you want to get a dividend, then you have to go through KYC again and fulfill all the regulations. So it's just about it's a question about where to place different things. And I think, yeah, like here, it is relatively clear. You know, regulation is there to stay, we cannot do anything around it. We just have to figure out how to work with it and how to write the smart contracts in a way so that they are compliant. And that's it and I think that's also the correct way to do it, to be honest with RWAs.

Perfect. Thank you, Patrick. I know the European market is a very particular one. Edwin, before we get to you to get the actual legal experience and perspective, Anastasia from the Hong Kong market, what does that look like in terms of regulation for RWAs?

Well, in Hong Kong, I think the SFC which is a local regulator here has been pretty supportive to the industry. So they always open up a framework and they collect the feedback from the industry first, and then they evaluate that feedback and then move forward with actually implementing sort of like the stricter regulation. So first, they've announced did digital assets licensing, or the virtual assets, service provider licensing for institutional investors and professional investors, then they started to expand the regulation to the retail market. And then they started to also talk about digitized assets in terms of like digital assets in terms of real world assets on security tokens. And at the moment, that is, well, for us, like from Defactor’s perspective, for example, like we are a tech provider that supports arguably projects with our tools and infrastructure that enable asset tokenization, and also enable launching pools. So we're enabling borrower lending within the community that's based off of a tokenized asset locked into a pool. So for example, in Hong Kong, the regulation had been clear in terms of suggesting for the tech providers to go ahead and launch their services, and essentially, expand their business in Hong Kong, however, talking to the potential clients of theirs, and encouraging them to look into the regulation because essentially, we as a tech provider don't have to be regulated on a license. However, the client that is dealing with the actual asset would need to look into whether that particular asset is considered to be security by the Securities and Futures Commission in Hong Kong. So it is up to the local regulation, to define what is a security and what is not. And heavy, like what Patrick said there about the regulation being here, and basically, it is something that we all kind of have to deal with. And it's not just in the particular regulatory environment or framework where we are located. But also given that a lot of these web3 firms, we're all global. And, you know, we like to say the word decentralized, but there are centralized authorities and all of the different jurisdictions where we're located. And we essentially have to Yeah, dig deep and research that. And I'm also very impressed that Patrick had mentioned a lot in his answer from somebody who is not backed up with the long background. Myself as well, I have not been exposed to a lot of war, crafting around digital assets, I just read that sometimes, you know, as a good source of information for my industry knowledge. But I think that is very unique and very cool, actually, about our industry that all of us not being lawyers, we actually have to look into this at the moment, because the industry is just so new. It's all just being shaped up. And it even if you didn't have, you know, previous law background, you actually can now start reading these papers and start basically using that knowledge to power the products that you're launching.

Yeah, absolutely. I think this is the moment for us all to just send up a quick thank you prayer for being I mean, prayer as a nondenominational in this incredible space that we're in that is so new so early. And there's just so much scope not only for innovation, but also to get in on the ground floor in whatever capacity that you want to get in. So if you are educating yourself if you're involved in this industry in any capacity. hat's off to you, because of this is history in the making. Edwin so yeah, let's get the actual legal perspectives. I think Patrick and Anastasia did amazingly well. But in terms of the landscape from a regulatory and legal perspective, from the perspective of RWAS, what is that looking like from a more global perspective?

Yeah, so this is the point where you're told this person dies, because it's the lawyers, planning regulation, and all the fun stuff, right? So just instead of be going globally, I would like to throw in a theory, which is something that very much we miss in the space and it's in this life, there's absolutely nothing that is not regulated, because there's various stories in the back that say, by analogy, you can establish that something that might not seem regulated, you apply something by analogy and becomes regulated. But the important thing to understand is that absolutely as of today, there's not a single piece out there that is unregulated. The thing is regulation needs to be improved and needs to be especially so for example to happen in the European Union 2017. They say, We don't know what our security token offerings, they look like initial coin offerings, but if they act like a security, then I should be applying securities law. So they were saying, I don't know what's an Ico, but just in the fact that maybe they're distributing dividends back is acting as acuity security law should be applied. So for like, two years, they were all going all over the floor trying to understand what is like this new thing, what is people getting funded for, but then are they securities or not? So the problem was that the was not regulated, the thing is, was not specialize. So from then till now, many regulations have been abroad. So we have the micro regulation, specifically landing how the utility token sector and stable coins are going to be. But now we also have in the securities law, where establishes you mean, the articulator of all the European different regulations says like, when you use distributed ledger technology, you need to so right now we're going through a specialization phase. So again, if nothing out there, it's possibly unregulated, the only thing that we needed was specialization. So we're going through that phrase, which allows builders such as everyone who's here to understand what how they have to apply, instead of going through these gray area where you have to go and say like, oh, maybe can be this, maybe we can the other thing, because it's not clear. Now, regulators have acknowledged that. And that's why we've seen a lot of upgrades throughout the world in different regulations, especially with securities law, just because now we have embedded securities being equity dev or whatnot, on chain. So this is kind of like how we seen the evolution of different landscapes across the globe, just because now the regulators have finally decided to understand that the gray area was not benefiting them and was not benefiting the builders, it was just too much of a mess. So they now rebuilding kind of like a little bit, not too much, but still giving the glimpses as to how the next couple of years are going to be looking like. So. It's a company now in the RWA, even though we like the fact that we don't need to be licensed, but our clients have, it's super crucial for these kind of guidances. Because if it's complicated for a builder to understand how to act now, imagine for a juicer or an AR who like issuers, some people that is not their forte, 24/7 have to go through all these quarters of regulation, and try to understand how to best perform. So that's messy. So looking forward to all these kinds of specializations are happening all over the place, because this is the evolution. I mean, it's just unstoppable.

Yeah, love your very succinct definition of Yeah, I just let me move on. Because there's so much that I can reflect on what you said. But let's not get into too much of the lawyer speak for the minute. Let's instead go on to another difficult topic, we know that there's a lot of opportunities in RWAs. But what are the challenges in terms of I mean, regulatory aspects, of course, is one challenging aspect. But what are some of the other challenges that we are facing in the industry in order to bring these beautiful things that we are seeing as potential opportunities, actually to life? Patrick, if you if we can get started with you?

I mean, I think the number one challenge that that crypto in general is facing right now is user experience. Right now, it's still too difficult for many people to get into crypto, and they don't see the value of being into crypto, right. And the reason is mostly because of bad user experience. But also because a lot of the crypto stuff we have simply does not solve or solve any problem. I think RWAs to solve a very specific problem, or many different very specific problems by making inaccessible assets more accessible to the masses. So for example, like I don't know, you could imagine real estate investing investments and making that more accessible by a fraction, analyzing a house and putting it on chain and stuff like that, right? It's a very easy sell and very interesting. But then it also needs to be super easy to get into, you need to have you basically need to hide everything blockchain as much as possible. You need to, you know, have a wallet in the background, you need to have an easy Fiat on ramp, stuff like that. And unfortunately, we're still a little bit away from that. So I'm always pushing for more good user experience and crypto and more designers and crypto and more people who just care about making a product good. And I think it's, you know, we're on the right track. It just takes time. It's not an undoable burden or anything like that.

Anastasia, so, building on top of what Patrick said in terms of the challenges I think which is a challenge for all of us and work through the user adoption, making things as easy as possible, making blockchain invisible as opposed to making it the focus. What are the most common asset types that are currently being tokenized? And is that because the challenges in terms of tokenizing them are easier than some other assets that might be more difficult to tokenize?

That's an excellent question. I'd like to first I guess, touch upon what Patrick said, and also add to it. So in terms of the user experience, I think one of the difficulties is also security. So once the users are getting used to the fact that they're dealing with real world assets, they might not be aware of some of the cybersecurity risks. And, for example, running their own custody and managing their own wallets where those tokenized assets will essentially end up being kept and preserving the keys and everything by themselves. That's part of the user experience, which is also very important in keeping the assets safe. And then another challenge is also having secondary markets. So that is also quite related to your question about the actual asset type. So for example, you would think the most common asset is real estate, because everybody wants to, you know, find the answer to the question, Can I tokenize my house tomorrow, right? And essentially, the idea is great, but the implementation comes down to who's going to buy that house right to once you've tokenized. And you enable the fractional ownership and cross border transactions and all the great benefits of asset tokenization. Where can you find those marketplaces and ensure that they are secure, and there is no smart contract flows, in terms of integrating your tokenized assets into those exchanges, there's not a good liquidity on those exchanges, or marketplaces, there is enough, I guess, work had been done to minimize the counterparty risk. And for that community, essentially, to be ready to receive those tokenized assets and start transacting in those markets. I think that is one of the main challenges, I would say, because a lot of the projects that we speak to, whilst the idea of adopting that particular asset that they're working with, sounds great, everybody's ready, we're ready from our side. And then we need to really explore whether their market is ready for that asset to be tokenized. And essentially started interacting with it. One of the, I guess, other aspects I would like to add is like launching a pool, for example, that's based off of a tokenized asset. The question here comes, whether, in the case of default, with more lending mechanisms that were implemented and put in place, inside pools, what will be the prices can, for example, can we find a liquid market for that particular asset? Is there a spot price for this asset, if it's tokenized gold, and the pool has tokenized, gold locked into that and people can borrow against their tokenized gold tokens? That's a relatively easy, I would say use case because gold has a spot price. It's an asset that's, you know, very much liquid in the traditional markets. So what happens when the pool will be launched with something that's more unique and something that doesn't have a particular liquid market? So yeah, these are the difficulties that essentially define which assets will be more popular to be tokenized, I wouldn't say there's a particular asset that was the easiest to tokenize. And we also go and work on that, because I think most of them have had health challenges, and to some extent, but the most popular one, I think, by far is the real estate in terms of how many people are actually attempting to do that.

Thank you so much, Edwin, I would like you to add to the list of challenges, but then also, I think Anastasia really touched on an important point, because in web3 speculation and you know, the whole market driving that aspect of web3 is of course an engine and if you if RWA is not part of it, because of being securities and the regulatory aspects, then it does kind of miss out also on that part of the web3 markets. I would love to have your thoughts in terms of challenges also specifically touching on this aspect?

Yeah. So obviously, they not going to talk about what they already will set. So on my end, I'm going to have just another pain point which happens with when you're playing with offline assets, so the valuation of the online to be triggered online at the same time. So for example, we will stay Yeah, I mean, You can have an API and there's some companies out there who really value what is the middle square in a specific area. So maybe you can create an Oracle to really trigger what is the offline valuation to the online. What happens if they said they're virgins. So that's something that has to be very much analyzed, because, for example, it can happen with everyone with everything. So I remember like six months ago, there was the stable coin trying to be backed by real estate. And it depends, just because the company itself good enough law real estate at the same amount of speed that he needed to repack against the stable coin they created. So this is kind of like the things that we have to understand that when you're playing with tangible assets, it's heavier, I'm sorry for the redundancy of the word, but it's kind of like Havier to bring the value online, just because it can be triggered with our like natural even, I don't know like, for example, you have a real estate and he burns down will that will that will immediately trigger the value on chain, but then you have a non chain value, that can actually be not truly trigger or link to the offline assets. So it might be still too complex. Yes, because obviously all the assets out there are not digitized, and you don't have all the information out there truly online. So it's kind of like the complication. And that's why on my end, my truly favorite thing to just tokenize is everything that is intangible equity, and that don't go to the tangible the tangible is owned by a company, then you don't really have to pursue the valuation of the of the asset, because that's just an accounting number inside the company books, the company Ledger's, which is easier to digitize and formalized and put on chain versus triggering directly to the asset, which isn't tangible, and somebody has to evaluate audits. For example, we had one that was crazy, kind of like, yeah, Want to tokenize a Ruby. And nice word. Let's put in a million a million euros perfect. Who's gonna be the custodian? Okay, yeah, so Swiss firm, so the row is gonna be in the custodian who's gonna audit the state of the Ruby, okay, and outside auditor, who's gonna review in six months that the inside the bolt, everything is correct without the Ruby, okay. But all of these off line information, you have to bring online because now you have buyers of the STO, or whatever, for my days of the token trigger to the Ruby. So you really have to pursue a way that your online buyers or investors have access to all of that information. And if there's a difference in the valuation, it also affects the token, because we're not talking about utility tokens that can suddenly pump 1,000%, We're talking about more steady inflows, more steady outflows. So that kind of like catch a very much different reference than the currently thing that is happening in crypto. So those things for me are still quite difficult to really pursue a great answer to and will sweat it to bring a different perspective.

Different Perspectives is what we are all about here. Thank you so much to each and every one of you, I think we have a very rich list of pain points, at least, if not yet all the solutions. So I want to I want to go to this idea that because a lot of people think that RWAs is what's going to turn web2 companies into web3 companies. But of course, there's also a lot of issues with web2 companies, or just any traditional company that completely doesn't have the perspective of tokenization. And you know, all of the nuances of web3, it's very difficult to have the balance, let's say those two mindsets of those different worldviews, really. So what are your thoughts on our who is going to bring with to into web3 or, you know, traditional world into web3? And how seamless is going? Is this adoption in this journey going to be Anastasia?

Well, I think it has to be seamless. Regardless of whether we want it or not, I think traditional industries, people from other backgrounds that haven't had the experience in web3, they have to have it pretty much like the same way that they've had it before. In terms of the user experience, it's just that now it's going to be tokenized and on blockchain because essentially, for all the processes and business models in different industries, everything should stay the same. The tokenization technology is just the means of getting that assets to a newer new market or to a better more efficient flow in terms of the workflow and how to deal with that assets. But essentially, it's I don't know I always have that example of my fitness trainer. She's younger than me, supposedly, you know, would be more familiar with all the cool stuff like Web3, but she's not yet familiar with tokens and Bitcoin and you know what happens to it. And I told her about Sweatcoin, which is a coin that you get for doing more steps. And she doesn't have to understand tokens or how blockchain works. She just now knows that for cardio. And for doing more steps, you can earn something that is somewhat form of money. And you can buy things on the marketplace that's lodged by Sweatcoin. And that's, to me, like that's the user experience, like we just have to enable things for people from traditional industries to just work. And hopefully, the journey and that user experience will only improve from now onwards and tokenized assets, I think, will play a role in connecting markets. And especially it will play a big role for those emerging markets where these traditional assets have not been easily available and accessible. So for example, tokenization of funds and funds or funds and strategies, from capital markets, will bring that as access to those asset classes, to industry, to people in jurisdictions like Latin America, Southeast Asia, where people maybe never had access to capital markets, they can't just open up an interactive broker accounts for various reasons. And for them, even if it will be maybe a steep learning curve, to interact with those assets, I think it is still such a big benefit for them to start participating in this market. So then they will actually go through the learning process. And who knows, maybe that would be even easier for them than actually opening a traditional bank account. That that is also not that easy. These days, you have to actually go to your branch.

Anastasia, Thank you, Patrick, what are your thoughts?

I think in the end, people just want to make money, right, that's like, two main motivational driver for almost everyone in crypto. And the closest thing you can compare to what's happening with other VAs right now is what happened, you know, with the stock market, 50 years ago, it was extremely difficult for anyone to invest into stocks, you had to have enough money, you had to be there in person, you had to purchase them, and so on. And now I can just download any like app that I want, like Robin Hood or whatever, put in $100 and buy a stock. And because of that, you know, the whole world is more is more accessible, like the whole stock market is more accessible to the world. And I think the same thing is now gonna be happening with all of these asset classes, which are currently not that accessible. And that's really interesting, because it opens up new opportunities for people to make money, which is what they want. And I think if the possibilities there for someone to actually invest and to make money, then it's no question. Of course, new people are gonna come into the crypto space, they don't really have to care about crypto or blockchain or any of the technologies, they just have to care about the opportunity that is presented to them. And that's, that's basically what it's about.

Edwin, what do you think about the future of adoption of RWAs?

Yeah, so the thing is, nowadays, it's been more common when I build breaking backing 2020 We're talking about security token offerings, and that word was very heavy on some people, because I would like add security, we still need your insecurities. But now we call them real world assets or under the umbrella real world asset and that just generated more like, openness to it, which is great. I mean, it just shows how our narrative matters when you trying to sell a product, right? And now we see in all these big companies trying or even banks testing, how to deploy tokenization of assets. So now we grow what I wanted to say is from 2024 to 2020. The world oil is this particular has completely an absolutely changed and that's four years, right? So my perspective is in the next five years, we're going to be more familiarized with just kind of like the tokenized versions of different financial instruments, convertible notes, why nots, different forms of bonds issued on chain different forms of equity, Phantom shares, because it just makes it so much easier. If we are able to supersede the barrier of user experience and make it more affordable as a web to experience then I have zero doubt that really the whole world is going to be tokenized.

Well, seems like we have a lot to look forward to but oh so a lot of work to be done. So before we get to the end of the hour, which I see we are close to, I want to talk about, of course, the most important group of people in web3, really early because web3 is the industry that champions this group of people, but of course, always the most important group in any industry, which is the community. So how will tokenization be able to empower communities? I mean, I think Patrick, you just touched on Oh, Edwin, you just touched In fact, I think it was Patrick, but all of us have been talking about the fact that utility of RWAs ultimately is about investment. And so yes, the people involved in RWAs, the community involved in the investment aspect of it, money is a very important factor. But there's also other factors that come into play. So how is tokenization able to take this concept of investment, but also involve the community and perhaps a broader, more different way? To get them to invest in things that they care about that currently, they're not able to do? Because those opportunities simply don't exist? What ultimately, is the role of community in RWAs? Well, let's start with you.

Yeah, I mean, the community is kind of like your pool of investors, right? So again, another great board, you don't want to call your pool of investors, investors, so you call them a community to make them part of your, whatever you build in and unify them on the same cause. So great narrative for because when we talk to these web2 companies who are using our tech or when I use our tech, we also show them that kind of like, hey, you know, you're gonna generate people who want to treasure project, you're gonna ambition you, they're gonna support you for the positives, and everything, because now you're on the narrative. So why don't you create a community? For some way people who have never heard about community or web three? That's kind of like mind blowing is like, oh, so I have a huge database of users? can I transform them into a community is like, Yeah, you should obviously start with your first user, your client, because they already trust in you. So you can now transform them also in believers in your project. And well, you know, what? They can also invest in your project? How is that? How does that look for you? So community building, it's crucial. I mean, nobody has done it way better than what we I mean, how they simply just a muscle have different posts of people on the same interest. And now you have like, all these super communities and different kind of outfits, what two can learn so much. So on our end, we don't like go through the like the big marketing strategy for our clients, because we're just a software provider. But whenever we talk about the value added of generating a community, they all see it super clearly. Which comes to say like why wept to people or companies have not really pursue of transforming followers into community database into community? Because this is kind of like the next trend, people like to be part of something right?

Absolutely, Anastasia, what are your thoughts on community and RWAs?

Well, I think the community for any technology projects, besides RWAs as well, is the early adopters. So the community, they are the people that would essentially attack tell us about all the bugs, tell us where the link is not working and tell us about the good things that they liked about the experience and the things that could be improved. So I see the community as that driver that really helps the project pivot in the early stages, and that community's the one that's providing the feedback that so necessary for the projects that are in their early stage. And besides for the community, besides from the feedback from the community, I think, yes, the community is our essential pool of investors, if we're launching products that are expanding that accessibility for certain asset classes, and bringing that to new market, so of course, the community is the market. And I think the community helps define how to better also market that product in the sense that they might have reasonable questions about again, if we're launching a pool, so what would be the liquidation process the community would be the one that is telling you how to best deal with such assets. And the community is essentially the driver for the new products as well. So whilst you've launched something that is a tokenized let's say I don't know real estate and you've launched pools And that are enabling people to borrow against a tokenized villa in Bali. I don't know, for example, right? Maybe the community would then start proposing new forms of tokens that would essentially encompass something else. Aside from ownership of that particular villa, maybe they want to have some other products on top of that, that will also become a RWA tokenization product, but in a different form rather than tokenize real estate. And there's a new, you know, whole new landscape to explore for the project. So I think the community and its feedback is essential for the project growth, for sure.

Absolutely couldn't agree more. Edwin, I know so much has already been said. But I know you also have very insightful thoughts or before we get into the Q&A section, which unfortunately, we don't have a lot of time for today. What are your thoughts on community in the RWA space? I think I think you posted me before, right? Oh, I'm so sorry, Patrick. I'm losing track. It's the end of my day. I apologize.

I'll repeat it again. As always. Oh, Patrick,

thank you. Yeah, no, no worries. I mean, we're all in Asia. So right now. So it's pretty late already? Yeah, I mean, I think community is a really interesting one, because we don't actually need it for other RWAs to become a success, which is awesome. That's exactly what we want. We want to have a product which can stand on itself, and which can actually be successful without the promise of any community. But because we are in the space of community, and we are in crypto, We of course know that community can enhance things like that. And I think that this shouldn't be underestimated. I mean, we've seen a lot of like community efforts happen. We've seen a lot of like, super fantastic NFT projects and things where having a real community of investors can make a project better. And I think that's, yeah, that's a pretty powerful thing. And it's very difficult to say any, anything specific about that, because you know, every community is different, and you can't really tell what the future will hold. I just know that. You know, it's good that we don't need a community, but the community will be there and the community will make RWAs better.

Oh, we've come to the end of the show. So I'm going to pick out at least one question and then we're gonna rapid fire through them. So the question from Dude, what are the benefits of fractional ownership for investors? And how does it contribute to a more diversified investment portfolio? So I think let's just rapid fire through it. All of you guys, Edwin, Patrick, and Anastasia. Just very briefly, what are the benefits of fractional ownership? And how does it offer a more diversified investment portfolio?

I guess I'll start. I think fractional ownership enables more community groups to participate. So somebody who didn't have $100,000 to buy an apartment can invest $100 To buy a fraction of that apartment. So that's one

I'm just gonna add to the portfolio. The portfolio is has a different investment in different baskets. So might as well create a basket for who instead of having to Dumbo to put 50k on an investment real estate now you can pull 500 So I mean, you generate the same deal. That's a 5000 Obviously, in the in the weight, but that just gives you a more opportunity to be able to invest in some profiles that you maybe because of the ticket size, at the back of the time, you wouldn't be able to...so fractionalization is just possibility of creating a new portfolio.

I think they nailed it. So I'm going to not comment.

Well, yes, I think copy paste though. Those are great answers. Patrick, Anastasia. Edwin, thank you so much. This was a very insightful hour. And I think everyone in the audience has learned at least one new thing, if not 100, new things. Where can people follow you guys or follow up with what you're building? Where's the best platforms theater? Where do you hang out? Let's put it that way.

So I definitely hang out on Twitter most. So follow me here or send me an email Patrick@nmkr.io Happy to talk.

For me the best way to connect is LinkedIn so, Anastasia Nizhegorodtceva, NI are the first letters of my last name so you can find me by that link or follow Defactor and Defactor posts about me sometimes as well. So that's easy to find. Thanks

for me, yeah, LinkedIn so my name is Edwin Mata, I probably can find me there and if you want to learn more about Brickken, then Twitter is the way to go. Thank you very much.

Thank you so much everyone. Lovely to learn more about RWAs straight from the horse's mouth and catch us again next week on the Future of NFTs same time same place second one not plates place you can really tell them tired. Thank you so much. Have a wonderful week. Speak to you next week. Cheers. Cheers.

Thanks for hosting. Thank you and see you in Hong Kong soon. Thanks, everyone.