In this inspiring episode, Klaudia sits down with psychologist and author Sarah Rozenthuler to unpack what it really means to move “from stuck to flow.” Discover why feeling stuck is universal, how reconnecting with your purpose—big or small—can anchor you through self-doubt, and how honest conversations can spark new energy and open doors to positive change.

Tune in to learn how simple shifts in mindset and meaningful dialogue can help you find flow and make a difference, every single day.

Get involved:

📨 Subscribe to the Substack newsletter for exclusive insights and updates: https://thehappinesschallenge.substack.com/

📚 Grab a copy of The Alphabet of Happiness from Amazon, Guardian Bookshops, Blackwells, Waterstones, and more.https://thehappinesschallenge.co.uk/book

Hello, happiness seekers. Welcome to the Happiness Challenge Podcast. I'm Klaudia Mitura and I'm on a mission to explore the best happiness hacks that science has on offer.

Like so many others, the pandemic cut me off from my family and work. So I decided to use my training as a psychologist to discover what science can tell us about the art of happiness.

What I found set me on the path to joy, and now I'm ready to share my journey with you.

Each month I'm publishing three linked episodes where I'm speaking to a leading expert, putting their tips to the test and sharing my findings and feelings.

From mindfulness to exercise and random acts of kindness, I'll be sharing a light on the simple happiness habits that can bring more joy to our lives.

What's very exciting, you can Also now find 26 science backed principles on how to create more happiness at work, in relationships and in your own skin in my new book, the Alphabet of Happiness. So join me as I embark on my challenge and together we can become more successful, resilient and happy. Hello happiness seekers, my name is Claudia.

Welcome to this month's Happiness Challenge. When we are tackling a topic that I think really resonates with many of us feeling stuck.

Whether it's old habits, self doubt or fear of change, that can leave us feeling frustrated and unsure of how to move forward. But what if the way out wasn't about forcing change, but more about shifting the conversations we have with with ourselves and with others?

To help me to explore this idea, I'm joined by Sarah Rasentuller, psychologist, leadership coach and the author of three books. Three books, Powered by Purpose, how to have Meaningful Conversations. And now we are talking.

If you ever felt stuck or long for more meaning and momentum in your life, this episode is for you. So, so let's dive deeper and discover how purposeful conversation can help us move forward one authentic step at a time. Welcome, Sara.

Thank you, Klaudia. Hello to all our listeners and watchers. Very happy to be here talking with you.

Thank you so much. And we are tackling a really, I think, important topic. I think it's very unlikely that we never had a situation when we felt stuck.

I think this is a really common feeling and often there is this idea of I'm frustrated, I'm not sure what to do next. So in your book Powered by Purpose, you explore how finding our purpose can really transform our lives.

So how does connecting with our purpose can help us move forward from feeling stuck to experiencing more flow?

So I want to acknowledge just to begin with how pervasive that feeling of stuckness can be. I know I've experienced it many times in my life and it can show up in all sorts of different ways as you've described.

There's the stuckness that comes from overthinking or indecisiveness or chronic procrastination. And it can be difficult to shift out of stuckness almost by definition, but where purpose can really play a part. And it reminds me.

This reminds me of something a client once said to me that always stays with me because purpose is often framed as being our North Star, that thing on the horizon, that shiny thing that casts the direction and we move towards it. And I think that's part of the story. But what this client said to me once was purpose is my anchor. It is stronger than my fear.

And when we're in touch with our purpose, what we're starting to tune into is the difference that we can make to other people. But the positive impact we can be having, whether that's on people or the planet, humans or non humans.

And that brings a shift in focus and it can lift us out of some self absorption, the overthinking, the indecisiveness, it can help us get over ourselves, if I can put it like that. And just think, move into a space where we're less self absorbed and we're more about helping other people, making a difference.

And along with that might come an attitude of let me experiment, let me give this a go. Because it's less about me and more about helping and serving others. And that can lift us out of stuckness.

Really interesting approach because you're right. When we feel stuck, we tend to be a lot in our head. We tend to have those self doubts, we tend to overthink, we tend to really, yes.

Be thinking of the situation we are in.

And this is really interesting also in terms of, as in your advice is really interesting also in terms of imposter syndrome, for example, because rather than concentrating on my thoughts and what I'm experiencing, thinking about, okay, how do I want to show up? How can I get closer to my purpose?

How can I bring the positive skills into the world and impact the world so much more positive, much more broader and instantly elevating us to the bigger picture, thinking, I can see that working very well, I guess to build on that is. I agree, when we talk to people about purpose, it sounds so bloody grand. Oh, great purpose, oh my God, this has to be something huge.

And how do we even start defining purpose? Can we even have only One purpose, like how can we make this more practical and more realistic for ourselves?

I really think, as you've said there to build on what you've said, that we need to bust the myth that purpose is something huge, that we have to be doing brain surgery or saving the Amazon to be working with purpose. We don't. And I've really enjoyed this notion. And this is from Dan Cable, who's written a book called Alive at Work.

And he and his colleagues have got this notion of local meaning, which is about finding meaning and purpose in day to day work.

And you might be working as an operator in a call centre, for example, and they've done work with operators at call centres making calls for fundraising with interventions that have really made a difference to the number of calls being made, to the amount of money being raised. Like uplifts of 170%, as much as 400%.

And what the unlock is there is when people can make an emotional connection with the difference that they're having. And that could come through short, like a 10 minute conversation with one of the beneficiaries of the fundraising.

That was one of the interventions that got the lift not just in performance but in people's well being as well. Because people are in touch with the difference they're making on the ground in their daily role. And I think that's what purpose is.

It's the enduring and meaningful reason you exist, that you do what you do. And it's absolutely possible to find that in, if I can put it like this, quite ordinary things and day to day life.

And I think that is very important, really busting that myth. And I think love the concept of local meaning. I think we can even go small and say what my.

What is my micro intention for today especially I think on maybe more difficult days, what helps me personally is think, okay, so what's my intention for next hours? I'm experiencing something difficult or I am dealing with a stressful situation, what's my intention for the next couple of hours?

And connecting with that. And that's a purpose in itself because we still impacting what's happening around us in that time and space.

So yes, definitely thinking about it more realistically. Okay, so this is very much of our shift that we can do.

Lots of decisions that we might be thinking of making in life will of course impact other people. So your books around how to have meaningful conversations and now we are talking, they specifically look at the power of dialogue.

Can you tell us more how having really authentic, vulnerable conversations again can help us break from unhelpful patterns and fears that may be holding us in a certain situation.

Yes, and I think it's a really good question because if we decide to really walk our purpose path, we might be making changes in our lives.

So I know, for example, when I some years ago, a significant change that I made was to do some, what sometimes gets called sun lighting as opposed to moonlighting.

So I switched from working full time five days a week as a psychologist in the civil service, to working three days a week to free up two days a week so I could start to do work that I found more energizing. And of course, as you're pointing to, that had a real impact on other people around me, in this case, the man I was married to.

So it was necessary to have some, some conversations because whilst it was wonderful to have more time, it also meant less income. So I was taking a 40% drop in salary.

And actually when I did the sums about what was coming in and what was going out, there was absolutely no money left over for any spend beyond the bills and the household expenses. And I needed to check he was okay with that because that was a real impact on our shared household.

Hence the need for a courageous conversation, a meaningful discussion. And I write with great passion about the humble and yet liberating tool of conversation.

Because in that sweaty 10 minutes that conversation might take, you can cross a threshold.

And when you get across that threshold and you get the agreement or you get the support, in this case from my partner, you start a whole new life chapter. And that's what we did. We moved from Sheffield to London.

I took the cut in salary and I often look back and I just think, wow, the life that I am living now, that I am loving living now as a speaker, writer, freelance consultant, would never have emerged if I hadn't have crossed that threshold with that 10 minute conversation.

So it can bring instant relief because you're no longer feeling so stuck, but it can also open the door to a whole new flow of positive energy in your life.

And as you said, almost a conversation that changed life, that 10 minutes and then build up and led to those positive changes for you in your life.

We have so many conversations like that and we maybe not even in the moment, don't realize how important and impactful that conversation even is and will be for the rest of our life. And maybe that's even good because then it's, it's. We're reducing the pressure of we putting ourselves under.

But let's say, okay, I do want to make that change, that shift towards whatever happiness is for me. And I am about to have that conversation.

What practical tools or strategies would you recommend for people to move through fear and to step into that conversation and move more towards fulfillment?

Well, a little bit of prep can go a long way. I think it's very good to spend a little bit of time offline looking at what the fear is about, unpacking the fear a bit.

I came across something lovely very recently, and this is Guy Hendricks in the book the Big Leap. And he says that fear is excitement without the breath.

And so actually, and I'm sure many people would recognize this, fear and excitement and even exhilaration are quite closely linked physiologically. And actually fear can really come up when we're faced with these changes, these conversations.

And I know in myself other people will get sweaty palms or their stomach will go into knots. For me, I get this terrible shakiness in my chest, not so much in my stomach, but this real shakiness.

And then I think, oh, my voice is going to sound all shaky. But I remind myself to take a few deeper breaths.

And it's not that I am then going to magically shift out of feeling fearful and feel wonderfully excited in an instant, but what that deeper breath or a few deeper breaths can do is just bring enough steadiness to my system, to my nervous system. I'm feeling more regulated, I'm feeling more grounded.

And just with that greater sense of breath, it can help me to lean in rather than avoid that tricky conversation, that courageous conversation. There's much more I can say and I'm happy to share more practical tips, but let me just pause there. How's that landing with you?

No, I think that's really practical and I think that's what we often maybe miss. I think it's difficult to find the balance. Sometimes we over prepare and overthink the conversations.

They really become so big and like big hairy problems in our head. And actually then it's very simple and we ask the question and the person says, yeah, that's fine.

And you're like, oh my goodness, I've been thinking about this for weeks and actually was that simple. And sometimes I think vice versa. We rush into conversations and I've definitely done it with, with my loved ones.

I. I rushed into something and then kind of escalated. And I'm thinking like, oh, I really didn't think this through and I could have been more considerate, more kind.

I could have maybe articulated things better and definitely haven't done enough prep.

So I Think it's a kind of a really much a balance and that often we need to just take a moment and pause and think, okay, am I overthinking this or am I actually underthinking this? And I really need to be spending some time preparing for it. And I think that's really important to recognize.

I guess I'm also curious about the narratives and the negative stories we tell ourselves when we are in that stuck situation. Because I definitely think that when I was in situations like that, I would say to myself, you don't have options. You cannot make this happen.

There were certain kind of like a storyline almost going in my head which kind of kept me of not recognizing that there are other opportunities and there are other options.

But because I'm spending energy thinking and telling myself quite negative story, then I'm not really exploring and not approaching things from what if perspective.

I'm just curious from your experience and from your amazing insights in your books is how can you rewrite this internal narratives to create more space to figure out what to do next.

I really like the way you've expressed that as creating more space because again, when we're stuck, everything contracts. And we often experience stuckness. There's a sense of tension, there's a sense of tightness.

And when the body contracts and we go all tense, I think our cognitive faculties also narrow and we can't then see perhaps what the options are or we can't actually see that we're looking at things through a very small lens. So one of the things that really helps, and I write about this in how to have Meaningful Conversations.

And it's a phrase that I learned from Neale Donald Walsh, who's a best selling author who wrote the forward to how to have meaningful Conversations. And the way that Neale Donald Walsh puts it is how important it is for any of us to talk with somebody who is not operating inside our story.

So your trusted friend, your trusted colleague at work, it could be a neighbour. My goodness, synchronicity might be you talk with somebody at the bus stop or even a stranger.

And in talking things out, you might actually then come to shine a light and see more clearly the story that you've been telling yourself that is keeping you in your corner. Because we can really feel in the grip of that internal narrative.

And when it comes out in a kind way and in a way where we can really look at it, things can really start to change. And I think one of the best ways is to talk with somebody else.

But even journaling and Letting yourself just do some free form writing means it's out there on the page. You can then look at it and you can examine it and see what's really true true about it and what isn't as well.

Yes.

And I was about to add journaling that I definitely really enjoy writing things down because it just helps me to see lots of patterns or flows or gaps in my thinking, which I'm not able to spot when I'm thinking about something. And I definitely done it even at work situations when making decisions. Let me just write it down to understand my decision process.

And I will write it down, park it, come back to it and realize, oh, I'm missing this, I haven't considered this. And suddenly you're like, oh, okay, so there are actually more options there. So journaling also really powerful.

And when we having those conversations, what if. Let's flip it. Let's say someone comes to us and say, I'm stuck, this is what I'm thinking. How do we help them to come up to their own conclusions?

What questions could we ask? How could we lead this conversation so it also doesn't become like, you know, I have the recipe for life.

And let me give you the advice because I think I'm not sure that's always useful, especially if someone's going through something very difficult. So what questions could we ask that help people to gain that perspective?

There's a principle I would be bearing in mind going into those conversations with somebody who was stuck and really needing some help. And it's a build on that famous phrase from Carl Jung around what you resist persists. Again, back to the stuckness kind of reinforcing itself.

But the add on to this, and again, I'm going to have to credit Neil Donald Walsh for this is so what you resist persists and what you look at disappears. And so underneath that resistance, that stuckness, we're back to fear. There's often fears running the show.

And.

And so it's very good. It's a real helpful thing to help the other person to take a look at what their fears are. That's what you look at disappears.

I don't think it makes the fears actually disappear, but it can help the fears loosen their grip. And so you might well know that principle of name it to tame it.

So if you actually name what your fear is, I'm afraid if I make this change in my day job and we take this big drop in shared income, my partner will leave me. And actually if I name the fear, name the nervousness around it, then we can have a good look at whether that is actually a real possibility or not.

And again, on the level of physiology and our nervous system brain image scanning, it tells us that actually when we name a feeling like anxiety or fear, then actually it helps us feel more settled inside. And then of course we can think more clearly.

So that is one line of inquiry that I would be exploring and I think, and I'd really underline that word inquiry because I think in these conversations we do need to drop, as you were saying, the advice giving the problem solving the need to fix, the need to be some kind of superhero helping the person and I think our best ally is really a good question. An empathic ear, sometimes just not saying anything and just giving the person back to space, space to talk and space to explore.

And maybe if I can add one other thing there, one other line of inquiry could also be once the fears have been expressed, expressed and the concerns and so on is actually help the person to really tune in to what they want to move towards. And we see this a lot in coaching conversations where the coachee can express what they don't want, what they want to move away from.

But it's really powerful getting people to, to tune into what the desire is here. What's the flow of positive energy that is attracting you and to ask questions that would draw that out.

Yes. So important, isn't it even simple? Okay, so what's the ideal outcome looks like here? Tell me, tell me more. And you're right.

Often people like, actually I don't know what's ideal. I actually know everything I don't want, it's okay. But so what are we trying to achieve here?

And again, I think so important around that advice, I think even simple question like, do you want my advice? Can I share my experience?

And I think when we do that, then we say, okay, I can share something, pushing it towards people, as you say, so people don't feel like I'm sharing something important here. And actually while you're just sharing what happened to you, which might be useful or might not be useful.

No, very practical and really, really useful. So thank you so much.

I guess my final really question is what there would you prescribe me and my listeners to try to get unstuck something simple action that we can apply straight away?

Oh, I would, I would really connect with your curiosity. That's what comes to mind. And so again, I've seen this work for coaches.

I've experienced it myself when I start getting curious, for example, what's really energising.

Let's just say you're not very happy in your work, but you go to work one day and you come home and you catch yourself in the mirror and actually your eyes are shining a bit more or your cheeks are a bit more pink because actually you had a good day that day. And so I think it's really good to be curious about. About when we feel more energised. And that might be to do with a work activity.

I remember once running a focus group. I was basically having to write a lot of reports at the time and I caught it when I got home that day that I just had a better day.

So it might be to do with a work activity, but it might be to do with the fact that you've just seen seen a website and on that website there's an offer, there's a training program, there's a free webinar and it really catches your attention.

So I think getting curious about those moments, it doesn't sound like very much, but when I look back, I've done a lot of navigating my way through my life and my career by being curious about what's going on in those moments that are a little bit more high energy.

Yeah, love that. Okay, so curiosity, asking questions, why this is important to me, why am I curious about this thing? What excites me, what energizes me. Fantastic.

Thank you so much, Sara. That has been really insightful. I definitely have learned a lot where listeners can find out more about you and about your books.

Thank you. So I'm very active on LinkedIn, so if you put my name into LinkedIn, you'll find me. And I post regularly.

So that's one channel and the other one would be via my website, which is my name. So Sarah Rosen Tula. Sarah with an H. Rosen Tula.

R O Z E N T H U L E R and you can again send me a message and you can find out about my books on that website as well.

Thank you so much, Sarah, again, for coming to the show and sharing all your insights. I really appreciate that. Have a wonderful the rest of the day.

Thank you, Klaudia. I've really enjoyed our conversation. Thank you very much.