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Description

What makes someone feel truly seen, rather than simply helped?

Shannon and Johan share honest stories about the difference between meeting a need and building a connection. Together, they wonder what can happen when practical help becomes more than a transaction—and what it takes to shift from solving problems to seeing people, even when that feels a little messy.

Time Stamps

04:35 Listening versus giving advice

07:30 Shifting focus from tasks to people

09:39 Delivering Meals on Wheels

14:13 Making interactions more personal

18:02 Discussing innate sense of justice

20:10 What Would You Do scenario

23:19 Moving to a new apartment

28:02 Slowing down for human connection

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And so that desire to solve or that desire to

fix things isn't, again, inherently bad.

It's just how do we take that and

ensure that it doesn't become something that we're using to make

ourselves feel better, but it actually is about seeing

someone, connecting, and growing in

relationship with them.

Welcome back to Neighborly. We are here with another

season. I say we because I'm joined

by Johann, who you've gotten to hear over the summer. I hope you've really

enjoyed those short summer speedo episodes. I have been.

I've thought about so many practical tips. Keep thinking about the one episode

about picking up our neighbor's trash bins, even though we don't need

to. Um, but it's been such a great summer. But I kind of

feel bad for those that are tired of those and hearing my voice because here

I am right back in the fall and they thought they got rid

of me, but no, here I am. No, we need you. You make us

better. I'm excited to be back. It's been a

quiet summer for me a little bit, not getting to come and

chat and talk with all of you, but I'm excited to

dive into this season. Johan and I have been Talking and

strategizing and just thinking about how we can make this

space valuable and meaningful for you

as listeners, and that it really be a space where you can come and

hear something practical, but see how it really can apply

in your daily life and beyond that. So we're pumped. We're

excited for what this season's going to have in store. Yeah, because there's a lot

of competition for our attention and our ears, and there's a lot of podcasts

people could be listening to. and probably are. So we wanted

to really talk about, hey, why would someone really want to listen to this

podcast? And we thought about things that we would get value out of

and just keeping our listener in mind and really wanting them to get something

out of it, too. So it's not like we're making a huge shift. It's

all about being better neighbors, but like, let's get to the nitty-gritty.

Like, how do we do that and how do we live out how Christ wants

us to live out as good neighbors and loving one another? Exactly. Yeah.

Yeah. It's easy to get into the ideas and the concepts and

the theories, but like, what does it mean day to day? You know, what does

it mean when I'm walking down the hallway of my apartment and I see that

annoying neighbor who I'll probably talk about later in this

episode? Yeah, that's what this is all about. Being

real, being practical, bringing it just down to the day to day.

So each episode this season is we're gonna be answering a

question and This question today, I think, is something that

we maybe have experienced ourselves or felt,

but maybe don't know exactly how to live

this out differently. So that question is, what makes someone feel like a

person, not a project?

And to dive into this, I've got a question for you, Johann.

When have you seen someone receive practical help, but

they still felt more like a need to solve than a

person to actually know. Now let

me add the caveat that I don't think we're experts, like

we're on this learning process too, and I probably

am not great at this myself. So I can think back

to a previous church that I was a part of. Like most

churches, you do the hamper drives in the winter, but they did it actually

year-round quite frequently. We had to pick up the hampers,

certain amount, And we had the address, we had the list, and we needed

to make the delivery. And a lot of these, because we did these often, like

they were regular, and some people, they had it on the list

actually to just leave it at the door. I'm like, why would they

want us to leave it at the door? I can kind of put myself in

their shoes where maybe you don't want the interaction. Maybe you're embarrassed that you're receiving

a hamper, or maybe that first connection just wasn't

very good. That first interaction that they had with someone delivering a hamper, maybe they

felt— Belittled. Maybe there wasn't much conversation at all.

So, it was like, why would I answer the door? I don't want to have

a conversation with just another stranger. Like, who knows? It

could be anything. But there were those people that we were just

asked to leave it at the door. So, to me, that's one of

those moments where it feels like they felt more like a person

to receive practical help rather than a person to know.

Yeah. What about you, Shannon? Do you have any? Yeah, I sat with this question

for a minute and there, I know there's a million examples, but the one that

kind of resonated the most with me is thinking

about times where I've been in a group setting of some kind,

and especially when maybe it's not people who I'm

super close with. So whether it's like a church small group and,

you know, I'm just getting to know these people or some other type of group

setting. And this has happened many

times where someone shares something, maybe it's personal or

a little bit vulnerable, and very quickly

someone responds with what they think that person should do to solve the

situation, or, you know, that advice right

away. And we're gonna talk about this more, and it

comes from a place of wanting to help, I think.

But so often if you've been on the receiving end and you just share

something or you're going through something hard and someone's like, well, you should

just do this, or just, why don't you do it this way? It

can feel like, are you even listening to what I'm saying? Like,

do you hear, you know, the emotions and the feelings that I'm

navigating? And so quickly you can leave that

interaction feeling like, oh, they just— You know,

wanted to tell me what to do. They didn't really actually want to know me

or hear my story. Okay, Shannon, we just shared

some examples of maybe those times where they felt maybe like a

problem over, or a project over being actual

people. What about looking back

in hindsight, caring for someone and then looking

back and wishing, man, I wish I would have done that differently?

Because I did not treat them like a person.

I treated them like a project or someone that just had a need rather

than building in that connection. Do you have anything looking back? Yeah. If

you can remember? Yeah, I do. I was thinking back to when

I was a student in college. I was at a really

small, tiny, tiny school in a very small town. And

once a semester, they would cancel classes in the

morning on one day of the week. And all the students would go out to

serve the community in some way. And some work had been

done on the front end to identify, you know, who needs their lawn

mowed or who needs, you know, this piece of equipment that's been

rotting in the yard moved, or who needs help organizing, whatever it might be.

There was a group of friends and I, and we had kind of come together

and said, you know, we'd like to go do, you know, do this, whatever it

might be together. And we got connected to, uh, an elderly

woman who I think she just needed some yard work done. around her house.

And looking back, the experience

actually ended really meaningfully. She actually took us out

for ice cream cones afterwards. Nice. Yeah. And so it was, it ended

up being a great example, I think, of good connection. But I

don't think it started there for me. My mindset going

into that morning was I wanted to help, I wanted to

serve, but I was thinking about, okay, what are the tasks that need to be

done? I need to make sure I listen to the instructions properly. When we get

there, I want to make sure I understand what she needs us to do and

clearly put, you know, the sticks in this pile or the rocks in that

pile versus starting with who is this

woman that we're going to get to meet today? What, what is a little bit

of her story? How long has she lived here? Like, none of that was really

in my mind. I was thinking about like, what are the steps

that we need to do when we get there? And I think in

the end, it was someone in my group who had actually

met this woman the year prior. So she had a little bit of

an ongoing connection. And then it was the woman herself

who really invited us to go get ice cream. So

she, I'd say she was almost doing more of the connecting and more

of that relational time together than I

really was going into it. And I think looking back,

I just wish I would've approached that differently from the start,

um, mentally of thinking, you know what, I just wanna get to know this woman

and we're gonna have time to do the work that she needs us, you

know, to really help her with. But like, first let's just connect.

Let's just get to know her and meet her a little bit.

Maybe it would've resulted in more ice cream for you too. I know, that's what

I'm thinking. We have a picture with her too. She was so

sweet. I know it. Next time. Next time.

What about for you? What comes to mind? I also used to

deliver Meals on Wheels. I don't know if you, if you're familiar with that, but

I think it's all over North America or whatever. But basically there's patients

that are at home that need food because they can't care for

themselves. They might have home care nurses and stuff coming in, but they have

people that deliver meals. I always work with people with developmental disabilities, and that

was one of the projects that we had. I quote unquote

projects. Yeah. One of the things that we did during the day. Now this

problem lay on me. We often had so many deliveries to

do and didn't necessarily have enough time

in our schedule to take our time and get to know the

people. We didn't take much time to say hello. And again,

like I would knock on the door, I'd say Meals on Wheels, and they

would say, just open the door and put it on the floor or

whatever. Yeah. Uh, but there were some that wanted to come in and

try to initiate conversation. And I always wanted to get this going

because we had other things to do and this wasn't my favorite

thing to do, honestly. I don't know if it's, if

it's because, you know what, I don't know. I don't know. I think I was

afraid of talking with people at this point in my life. Strangers.

I didn't like strangers very much. Interesting career choice now,

Johan. Thank goodness for growth. Yeah. Uh,

but I mean, the interesting thing is if you've done Meals on Wheels long

enough, you have these regular routes. So you, you

know, okay, I'll be going to this person's, this person's, this person's.

And because a lot of these people are elderly, once in a while,

one of these names would drop off the list. Yeah. And

you have no information. You don't know what happened. Why

don't they need him? Maybe they're all better all of a sudden, or they found

new home care, or maybe they passed away. And as a podcast

guy, I kind of— I'm kind of sad looking

back at those times where I didn't take the time to connect with people because

stories as a podcast person are so important. And I

do love stories, but I didn't push to get their

stories. I didn't get to push to find that connection. And maybe because They

had Meals on Wheels. They didn't get many visitors or family bringing them meals.

So that was an opportunity missed. And I feel like a lot of them

really did try to put an effort in to get to know me, but I

was on a schedule. I was too busy to make that

connection, and that grieves me a little bit. Yeah.

I think you make a great point in there, Johan, that sometimes

people do just want you to leave the meal or leave the thing at

the door. and go on. And

that might be comfortable for both them and for you,

but it kind of, I think, can leave both people feeling

like, oh, we didn't really see each other.

But before we can get to that point, can we— can you share a little

bit about why do you think that is? Why do you think that it's easier

to just leave the item and go without really having that

human-to-human connection? Yeah, I think one of

the challenges is that sometimes in these situations that we're

talking about specifically is that the need actually

is our first introduction to the person or family that we're meeting.

Right. We're not, we're not building that relationship first, and I

feel like when care grows out of an existing relationship,

it's so much easier. Like, it's more natural.

People feel human already because you already got to know them beyond

beyond their need, and you might understand their need a little bit more because

you understand the situation they're from. But it's really hard when

our first introduction to them is, you have a need and I'm

fulfilling it. Like, how do you build that relationship first?

You can't really get to know them ahead of time knowing that the need is

going to arise. Like, that's really challenging, especially in our

case. Like, we're the care portal people. Mm-hmm. You could probably speak to that a

little bit. Totally. Yeah, I, I love that you mentioned this

because I was thinking about how I see this in my own life all the

time. I've got friends who are having babies and friends

moving because they're getting married and all these different things. And when I'm in

conversation with them, it just naturally comes up, like,

you know, what can I make for the baby shower? Or, you know, tell us

when you're moving so we can come help, you know, haul boxes. It just

feels so natural because we already have that

relationship with them. And it doesn't feel transactional.

But you're exactly right when it comes to opportunities that

come up through CarePortal, for example, that first

introduction to the person or to the family is the

need that I'm reading about, you know, on the request on the app. And

so that's the exact question I think we need to ask ourselves is,

it's not bad that this first introduction is the need. Of course,

that's, that's not— An inherently bad thing. So

knowing that though, how can we then see

that need and take that to be, make it a more

human moment, a more relational moment? And I think a

lot of it comes down to our intentionality

that you might get to show up with the car seat, but

when you get there, is it okay, here's the car

seat, like have a great day? and bye. Or what

if, hi, my name is Shannon. I, you know,

saw that you're in my neighborhood and wanted to bring this car seat.

How are you doing? How, you know, how does it feel to

be adding a new little baby to the family? You know, are you new here?

Just asking questions, I think, is such a great

way to easily get past that transactional

Kind of space that can come up when we're just bringing something or,

and meeting someone for the first time that way, that I love to ask

questions. Um, because you can find things to relate to that go

beyond what it is that you're bringing. And I can

say, oh yeah, I'm having a baby too. And oh, figuring

out, are we gonna, you know, how are we gonna do feeding or whatever those,

those different things you can do, just connecting. As

people. And, and doesn't mean you're going to become best friends right away.

You know, they might not even want that, but it just means I see

you and I'm getting to know you and I'm bringing

something that you need because we all need things. That's, that's not wrong.

But when we bring that, how can we ask questions

to help us see that person beyond what they need? I think

that's a great way to go about it. And I think maybe another

human way of going about it, and I don't think this is a typical way

of doing a request, is recognizing,

you know what, I'm nervous about meeting you for the first time, and you're probably

really nervous about meeting me for the first time, and recognizing, hey,

they're probably even more nervous than I am. I don't know how you

bring that up in your first interaction, or if you do at all, but just

even having that recognition. That they're probably feeling nervous about this.

And I like what you said there is like, I have needs too. Like, is

there a way that you can weave that into the conversation saying,

you know what, I've been helped in so many ways. I really just wanted to

give back and I know we all need support. So here's my way of doing

that. It takes that savior complex out of the way a little bit,

saying we're just all caring for each other and this is my way of reaching

out. I love that. That's a great practical reminder

of our mindset. Johan, can you talk a little bit about

problem solving though? Because I, it can be kind of an instinctual

reaction is that when we see, quote, a problem or an

obvious need, our natural instinct is to

solve it. Like, what do we do with that? Yeah, if you ask my

wife, she'll say that I like to solve problems even when

she doesn't want me to solve problems. She just wants someone to listen.

I think I'll always be learning how to do that better. But I think we're

all in a sense problem solvers because we don't like to see suffering.

We don't like to see people in need. That's why

charities thrive off sharing stories,

showing the kid in need and putting that on the screen because

that's what's going to create donations, right? We want to solve that problem for that

kid. We don't want to see that kid suffering anymore. Right. So I think inherently

we don't like unsolved mysteries. That's why we like the

whodunit series, podcasts, true crime, because we want to

find out who did it. We don't like things going unresolved,

and we don't like to see suffering. I think that is such a

natural part of how God has made us, too.

He is a God of justice, and I think when he

formed his people, There's a level of that in us as well,

that we can sense right and wrong. We can sense good and evil

and desire that good

order to how life should be and that vulnerable people shouldn't

suffer. And so that desire to solve or that

desire to fix things isn't, again, inherently

bad. It's just how do we take that

And ensure that it doesn't become

actually something that we're using to make ourselves feel better, but it

actually is about seeing someone, connecting, and

growing in relationship with them. I really

like what the Bible talks about us being the body of Christ and

not having the hand say to the eye, I have no need of you.

I'm not sure if it was the hand or the eye, but you know what

I mean. But we all need each other, and I think

that's the place we need to start from

is knowing our need for each other. We all have

something to offer the other person, and I think that's a good place for

us to begin to give out of relationship and connection rather than

giving to a need because we're really giving to people.

We're not giving to a need, we're giving to people. Right. Because they're worth it

and they have, Intrinsic value. Yep. Okay,

Shannon, before we put a bow on this episode, we're going to try something new.

I want to have a little bit of fun on this podcast because you know

what? I listen to a lot of podcasts and the ones that are

more fun, I keep coming back to. Right. So we're going to

do a segment. This is the first of its kind

and not the last, hopefully. If you have negative

feedback, you can let us know, but We're going to call this segment, What

Would You Do? What would you do? What would you do?

Okay. So you know what we're doing here, Shannon. Um, what's this

segment going to be about? What are we going to do? All right. So in

our What Would You Do segment, I'm going to give you a scenario

and a question, and I want to hear how you'd

respond. You know, maybe you feel strongly one way,

maybe you have a few options. But I want to hear what, what would you

do in this scenario? And maybe I'll share a few thoughts as

well, because the one today I have a lot of feelings about.

All right, so Johan, you have talked to the same neighbor

several times, and you definitely should know

their name by now, but you don't. And

then what do you do the next time you see them? Do you

ask their name? Do you pretend that you already know it? What

would you do? I'm notoriously bad at

remembering names. Uh, I got a few

things. I got a few options, actually. First of all,

my wife is better with names. So if a neighbor

keeps talking to us, I'll usually ask her, hey, what's the neighbor's

name? They were just talking to me. I can do that,

but I'll usually forget the name almost immediately and have to ask her again anyway.

So, that's not a great solution. And number 2,

I just don't use their name. I mean, I'm actually living this out right now.

I got a few neighbors. We talk all the time. We're on the driveway

saying, hey, how's it going? I don't know their name. I should know their

name. I've lived here like 7 years. I interact with people all

the time without using their name. 7 years? Wait, you lived there 7 years, you

don't know their name? Well, I, I did. I, I learned.

I— okay, I got to know their name at one point,

but, oh, you know, then winter comes and no one talks

to the neighbors in Manitoba because it's too cold. No one

wants to be on the driveway chatting, so I forget their name over the winter.

And I almost need to use it every week to remember it. Right.

There's one neighbor, our next-door neighbor, I got to know their name.

I talked to them all the time, and then they moved away. And now we

got new neighbors, and I gotta learn that process all over again. So,

well, and then one of them barely speaks English, so that's not going to be

great. Right. Unless you learn their language, then there you

go. Okay. But here's a great solution. Oh gosh. I

don't know the legality of this. I'm not condoning this, but

everybody gets mail. We don't have those locked mailboxes here yet. Some,

many places do in Canada, but we don't. So, I might

actually go to their mailbox, You know, check a name on the mail.

Johan. I'm not, I'm not checking their

mail. And you know what? Sometimes neighbors

get wrong mail, so I can pretend to bring a letter over there.

Like I got the— they got in the wrong mailbox and just peek at the

name on the mail. I'm not going to open the mail because that's illegal. That

is definitely. That is. But you know, for the sake of being

less awkward and getting to know I'm not saying I've done this. I'm just saying

it's a possible solution. You know, something I may— yeah.

I should probably ask for forgiveness because I, I

am acting self-righteous, but I almost have done a couple of

these. Okay. Yeah. Even last night, I, I'm,

as you're talking, I was realizing I saw someone's package in the

hallway and that Amazon had delivered and it was for a guy

that we've talked to, but I forgot his name. And I really

thought about looking down at the package to get his name,

but I thought, you know, that's weird. I shouldn't do that. So I didn't.

But what I did do actually that I don't think

was wrong, but my intentions maybe were not

the most pure. We moved this summer to a

new apartment and it's been great. We love living here.

We do have one of Uh, a neighbor who

you could say is eccentric. That's my, my favorite word to

describe her. She's an eccentric lady, and I've

talked to her a few times. Very— yeah, very just

eccentric. Uh, she's told me her name and I don't

remember what it is, but the other day I was like, what is this

lady's name? And I remembered that because we're in an

apartment We have one of those like pager systems when

you walk in, so you can like dial someone's unit number and it'll, you

know, they'll buzz you up. Nice. Yeah. And so it has a list

of all the tenants. It's posted and it has their unit number, and I knew

which unit number she lived in, so I just looked at the list.

It's, it's just right there, very public. But the downside is that

people, they choose what to display on the list, and so

it only had her last name. And what I'm not going to do is

look her up on Facebook. That would be, I think, a step too far. You

can be respectful and say Mrs. whatever her last name is.

That is true. That can work. That is true. Except she's never told me her

last name. So then she'd probably say, where'd you get my

last name? Oh, I think the moral of the

story is that we just— well, what is the moral of the

story? Maybe we just need to write people's names down

when we remember, when they tell us. Okay. So,

you know what? This is a good segue because finding out

someone's name could make them feel like a project.

How do I find out this person's name? Not if they don't know that you

did all that effort. Well, here's the other thing. Like

I talked to neighbors and I know they don't know my name.

Like I can look them in the eye. We have several conversations. Sure. And I

never hear them use my name. In fact, Johan is not a memorable name.

So we're in the same boat. It's, it's kind of this weird tension. You don't

even— you don't know each other's names and you're just having this conversation. Right. We

really just need to get better at connecting with people and having these conversations

better so that we're also caring and loving on people

and talking. That's right. Out of a place of connection and not a project

of, I'm going to find your name out one way or another without asking you

directly. Right. Right. Just be a little more

direct. I think we could all use that. Just be more direct, but kind.

Clarity is kindness, right? Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, we could always ask them, but who wants to be the first person

to ask for their name? Yeah. And that's the thing. Like, if you

ask your neighbor's name, I'm still going on this. If you ask for your neighbor's

name, they're going to say their name and then they're going to say, what was

your name again? So someone's waiting for that question. It's actually

relieving when someone says, what was your name again? So maybe it's

more bonding, really. Like, this is a great connection opportunity.

Yeah. Anyway, that was our segment. That's our question. It's not always going to be

the same question. Obviously, we're going to have different questions and hopefully

make us think a little bit more. That's right. And you know what? That tied

into this episode nicely, I think. So, I think so. You have anything else to

say on today's question about treating

people like people rather than projects?

I think what I'd love to leave with is a

quick bullet list of some ways to practice this,

because I want to make sure that when we have these conversations,

people can leave with that next step of like, okay, well, what do I do

with this? So here's a few ideas. When you're in

conversation with somebody or you're interacting in one way or another,

ask questions before you assume. Number 2,

could be their name. Could be their name. Start very

basic. Number 2, offer choices where

possible. Kind of ties in with not assuming, but

if you can offer a choice between this or that. Number

3, learn one thing about the person that has nothing to do with

what they need. I think this is kind of like a

power practice in a way. I think this, this goes a lot further than we

think. It does. Number 4, slow

down enough for a human interaction when

circumstances allow. Instead of rushing through life,

rushing through the day, take a

second and see somebody. Talk to the person at the cash

register. Say hi a little bit longer to the person who's

filling your gas. And lastly, follow up.

So let's say you're able to help a neighbor move

some furniture, And maybe it's a neighbor you don't really talk to that much, but

this time decide to follow up with them, check in,

and see what else they need. Those are just a few possible

practices of things you can do in the moment to help

us move from seeing people as what they need and

actually seeing them for who they are and the worth that they have.

That sounds great to me. All right, Shannon, I had fun joining you on this

episode. I think I might Join you for a few more this fall.

Sounds great. How do you feel about that? I think that's great. Our listeners are,

are soon gonna find out one way or another that I won't, I won't be

around too much after December because I'm having a baby of my

own. So, uh, yeah, here we go.

And I will for sure remember your baby's name. Please do. Please do. I hope

so. I'll write it down for you.

The stories we share here remind us that care does not have to be perfect

to be powerful. It just has to be present. Neighborly is an

initiative of Care Impact, a Canadian charity equipping churches,

agencies, and communities with technology and training to care better

together. This episode was produced by Care Creatives Co., a

social enterprise of Care Impact. If you're building a podcast and want help with

strategy, editing, or full production, visit carecreativesco.com.

Care Creatives Co. I'm Johan. Thanks

for listening, and keep being the kind of neighbor someone will never

forget, in a good way. This is The Take, where my

faith and your own

meet. We're standing for freedom,

love's holy fire. Love is

turning over tables, breaking

all chains. When I see you in a

stranger, I'm no longer the same.

Turning over tables, tearing

down walls, building up the

bridges between the souls of

his children. Turning over tables, breaking all the walls.