If you're going to spend time being a guest on other podcasts, don't you want to know how to make the most of your appearances? I can't imagine why you wouldn't and this episode is gonna help.

I'm speaking with Jason Cercone, host of Pod Theory and Evolution of Brand, Jason is helping people improve their experiences and ability as podcast guests. If you're a regular listener, you will already imagine that we have. a lot in common but whilst we have many commonalities, there are also areas of divergence that make our approaches distinctive.

Some big questions in this episode:

• How fast should you get to the meat of things?
• What does your host want to achieve?
• The 2 main types of podcast guest
• How to sell by not selling
• Why starting your own show might not be a great idea and when you should
• How to establish yourself as an industry authority

Jason has done some deep-dive research into podcasting that gives him a great overview of the industry, such as it is, and how you as a business owner can be making a bigger impact with audiences.

Enjoying the content? Join me for the Podfluence Weekly newsletter on LinkedIn, Medium or Beehive to get articles and show updates every week(ish).

You are warmly invited to join other coaching & speaking professionals who are building their authority through podcasting in the Podfluencers Facebook Group and get your free download of How to build authority with podcasts

Did you enjoy the show? Did you learn anything new or useful? If you did, then the best way to show your appreciation is by sharing the show with your online network. Tag me and I'll give you a shout-out on an upcoming episode. Leave a review and I'll read it out on the show.

Of course, if you REALLY liked it, you're welcome to support the show financially too using this link Support the show (https://speakinginfluence.supercast.tech/)

Mentioned in this episode:

Podfluence Weekly

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Welcome to Podfluence, the podcast for business coaches and

speakers looking to build influence and generate business through podcasts.

This week I am joined by another expert in the world of podcasting.

Someone who's show I have listened to you many times and I've learned

a lot from this guy, and so it was a real pleasure to have him on the show.

In fact, when we did a pre-interview chat sometime back.

We probably could have kept talking all day because we just really collected

and we had so much in common, and we talk about a lot of the same things.

We have different perspectives on some things, and there's a

lot that we definitely agree on.

And maybe just describe things in some slightly different ways.

In this episode, I'm speaking to Jason Cercone, host of Evolution of Brand

and Pod Theory two podcasts that I have very much enjoyed as a listener.

In our conversation, we're gonna answer questions like, is starting

a podcast the best next step for you, your business and brand?

Or is there another path that we could recommend instead?

Here's a hint, there's another path.

Also, the things that people commonly get wrong when they are appearing on

other people's podcasts, that could be damaging your business growth

rather than contributing to it.

We even get onto things like what makes people tune out of the conversation or

the episode that you might be appearing on and what the biggest value of

podcasting has been for Jason, and I would say for myself as well, which we

didn't know was there when we started.

You're gonna get a lot of value in this particular episode.

If you are not already subscribed to Podfluence, do make sure you hit that

follow or subscribe button on your device that's probably in your hand right now.

And if you're feeling kind, it would be a great help for me.

In fact, you would earn my undying Love to leave as a review for this podcast.

, and I would love to see five star reviews, but it's most important to

me that you leave an honest review.

Things you love may be things that you didn't so much, but five star

reviews, definitely very welcome.

You could do that on Apple Podcasts and through Pod Chaser.

Any other places you can do that, please feel free to do so.

And if you leave me a review, I will do my best to read it out

in a future episode of the show.

But right now it is time to prick up your ears as we get

into this episode of Podfluence.

Welcome to the show.

I am very happy to be joined in my virtual studio by someone who

I have listened to many times.

And I'm very happy to be getting to speech in person.

We have chatted a little while before, but he has a lot of great

knowledge around podcasting.

He's been doing this a while as well.

He is an absolute pro in the industry and you're gonna love what he has

to say about podcast guesting.

So let me properly welcome to the show, Jason

Sarone.

Johnny, how you?

Bye my friend.

Great to be here with you.

I'm very happy to be speaking to you and you are someone, I'm happy

to say I've learned some pretty cool stuff from you, Jason, and and I've

been enjoying following your show.

So you host at the moment you host the Evolution of Brand.

That's your podcast now, but you had a show before that as well.

I seem to remember listening to you on a different show before that too.

And so you've been doing podcasting Go well.

When did you get into the

podcasting?

Well, podcasting began for me all the way back in 2015 when podcasting

was starting to come of age.

I think it was, I think to some degree we're still coming

into our own in this space.

But 2015 was when I first took my leap in and started my first show with my

best friend, and we had a lot of fun with it, but what it, what the purpose

it served for me was that it really re rekindled my passion for radio.

I did a radio show back in college back in the early two thousands,

and I absolutely loved it.

And then I lightly looked into pursuing it as a career once college

ended, but it didn't pan out.

And then lo and behold, this podcasting phenomenon hit the world

and I realized that this put me right back on the track that I wanted to

be on at an earlier stage in life.

So started that in 2015, did a few different, over the years helped

some other people launch their shows and worked on the production end,

the marketing end, and pretty much every capacity that you can imagine.

And then the show that you were referring to, pod theory was something

that I launched during the pandemic, that I wanted to start talking more

to podcasters about doing podcasts better, because I realize that there

is a lot happening in this space and there's a lot of people that walk

away from their podcast way too soon.

and if there's anything that I could do to help prevent that, because I feel that

this is such a powerful medium to express yourself, to make powerful connections

and build very lucrative relationships.

And if you do it right, and so many people don't take the time to

really develop the fundamentals to.

So Pod Theory served that purpose for a while, and at the same time

I was planning evolution of Brand.

I spent just about a year planning what I wanted that podcast to be, cuz in

essence what it was, was this amalgam of all of my podcast experience and some of

the inspiration that I drew from fellow podcasters, I wanted to make sure that

I was putting the most quality product together and delivering that to the world.

And that's what's been happening.

And the show has been going fantastic since it's launched in October of 2021.

Demand to be on the show because the conversations are very engrossing,

has been through the roof, and it's been a, it's been a blast.

And pod theory I'll drop a little piece of breaking news there

probably because I'm crazy.

As if I don't have enough on my plate already, I'm probably going to be doing

a rebrand on pod theory in the very near future and taking it it very, I wanna say,

I don't wanna think back to basics, but we're gonna get real granular with some

of these skill sets that podcasters need.

And the whole theme is gonna be around disrupting the audio platform.

So stay tuned.

I like the sound of that.

Jason and I will be definitely staying tuned to that.

And one of the big themes of my show is around building influence.

And I think podcasts are such a great way to do that.

It's one of the reasons why I'm focusing the show much more in

building influence through podcasting.

But I wonder who for you, has been an influence either in podcasting or not,

but in terms of the direction of your life or someone who's inspired you in

you in the directions you've taken?

Well with podcasting, there's been a lot of shows that

I've listened to, so to pinpoint anybody specific would be difficult

because I took a year and a half after I had started my first podcast

and we ran that as far as we could.

I started a second podcast and probably about 20 episodes into that I realized

that this is something I really want to do, but I don't want to do it poorly.

I really want to get good at this.

I made the decision to shut that podcast down.

I felt that I had gained some experience, but I really wanted to just take time to

develop more of a voice and see what others were doing.

So I started listening to podcasts all the time, and for a year and a

half, I did no production of my own.

I just studied and listened to what other podcasters were doing.

I listened to TV and radio personalities in Pittsburgh where I'm located and

in other parts of the world, and really just put on an analytical cap.

And looked at what I could do to emulate some of these great

personalities and these great voices.

I can give credit to a couple specifically, this name may not resonate

with many of your listeners, but there's a sports broadcaster here in Pittsburgh

by the name of Mark Madden, and he is a very real gritty he plays a heel persona.

If there's any wrestling fans out there, like he really goes on air to, in

essence, piss off the audience, but he's doing it from the role of a character.

And I had followed him.

I learned about him back when I was a wrestling fan back in the early

two thousands when he was in World Championship wrestling as an announcer.

And then when I moved to Pittsburgh, I heard him on the radio.

I'm like, oh, this is so cool.

And really been listening to him ever since.

But the way that he talks to, to, to his audience, the way he delivers his

message, the way that he communicates, there was just something about the way he

did that that really resonated with me.

So I was constantly listening to how he delivered his questions when he

was giving an interview, and then how would he, how he would interact

with fans when they would call in.

So I drew a lot of inspiration from him On the podcasting side, I owe

a big thank you to John Lee Dumas.

Entrepreneurs on Fire Hit I liked the format of that show and when, as

I was developing Evolution of Brand, when I was listening to different

podcasts, I was listening to how.

He structured his show and my favorite element was the fact that he got

to the value as fast as possible.

Right.

And I think that's one thing I've noticed in the podcasting space is some

people, they love to hear themselves talk and there's nothing wrong with that.

But I feel that if you are presenting a guest that has a

certain level of expertise, that's what people are showing up for.

So they don't need to have a three minute intro with a song tied to it

that's gonna talk about all these things.

And then a 10 minute monologue from the host about A, B, C, and D before

we ever get to the actual interview.

And what I loved about that, it was, it was just, here's

who you're gonna hear today.

This is what we're talking about.

We're gonna get to that after a quick word from the sponsors Quick 32nd ad,

we're into the value of the show quickly.

And that's what I, I was like, I want my.

To have that same type of feel.

So I pretty much built the format the exact same way with a quick intro to

set the table, quick add, and we're into the value as fast as possible.

So to specifically pinpoint two people that have helped me in my

journey, I will name those two, but the list goes on and on.

that's excellent.

And what I wondering, you've gone really deep with with your research, what you're

saying, and do you find that there are distinctions to be made that are very

specific to podcasting and how you show up and how you present yourself and

maybe even in interviewing as well?

That what we define everywhere else?

I think there is a big disparity from the people that really

take this seriously to the people that just want to show up and talk

for a little bit about what they do.

And for me, I look at it for the whole process and maybe there's a little

bit of bias in me because I'm also a podcaster, so I'm thinking on both ends.

When I'm a guest on a show, I know what the host wants to accomplish by the

piece of content that we're creating, and that's something that's going to

be impactful and compelling, and when the audience hears it, they can really

sink their teeth into it because what happens when they get that type of

reaction and response from the audience is they want to come back for more.

Perhaps this is the first episode of your show, Johnny, that somebody finds,

hopefully they're feeling something in the chemistry of our conversation

and everything we're talking about that makes them say, Hmm, wonder what

else is in the content catalog that I can really dive into and learn.

So they'll start to peruse your past episodes.

They'll subscribe so they don't miss the next release, and

that's really the objective.

When it comes down to the nuts and bolts of it.

Podcasters want to grow and I feel that guests need to treat that

type of approach with respect.

because as a podcaster you are asking someone that has expertise on a

certain subject that you know your audience will respond to, to take

their time to come on and really talk about that area of expertise.

And in doing that, if you do it the right way, you can truly establish

yourself as an authority that that audience is gonna wanna learn more from.

But some people show up to podcasts and just go into sales mode.

They feel like they need to use that platform to promote their book, to promote

their product, to promote their course, and not realizing that in showing up with

a valuable message to say and a story to tell, that's gonna do the selling for you.

You don't have to make it into an infomercial.

You just show up and you have a great conversation with the host.

You talk about the areas of expertise that clearly you're passionate about and

you can say a lot of great things about.

And in doing that, the audience will respond to say, I really like that person.

I wanna know more about what they do and how they can help

me make a transformation in my.

, or maybe they won't, and that's fine because you don't resonate with everyone.

It's impossible to resonate with 100% of the audience.

But if you're doing your job properly and you treat this platform with

respect, you can show up and really make a positive impact that's

going to be heard on a worldwide scale because podcasts are global.

So you really have great opportunities to open up the doors for networking

opportunities, for business opportunities, and to truly establish

yourself as a trusted resource that people wanna learn more from.

Yeah.

This is something that I've been writing about and thinking about as well, and

I know we had a bit of a chat a while back and I think we could have gone

on talking all day probably because we were, we were going going deep.

Cause I really, but, but yeah, it was one of the things that came

up to me and I ended up writing about was that there are, Said No.

Go podcast.

Go podcast would be great.

You do.

It's promote your business or your book and it maybe isn't gonna be great for

everybody for some of the reasons you were just saying and perhaps a few more

besides like, if you go on there and you really can't present yourself well or you

are just purely transactional about it.

Or you go on there and you're delivering a TED talk, you're not really listening to

the host or really properly engaging and people think, oh, does that really happen?

Yeah, it really happens.

That's not gonna do you any favors in the long run.

I mean, for starters, you may not get aired.

Your episode may not get aired for that very reason, and if it does,

It may not do you any favors when it's out there in the world as well.

The whole point of this is to have materials that are

reflecting your message.

Something about you having people want to follow you and maybe wanting to

check out your book or your own show, or wherever it is you've got to offer.

But if you can't actually present yourself well on the show and you don't

have the engagement, or you don't even particularly care about the person

you're speaking to it's gonna be hard.

100% correct.

And I think what people fail to think about when they come at

this from the guest perspective is the listener experience.

And you have to take a minute to put yourself in the listener's

shoes and say, is this something that I would want to listen to?

If I tuned in to this podcast and I click the play button and someone just

instantly started selling me something and didn't stop, would I keep listening to.

Chances are no, because the good thing about commercials is they end,

you can get a lot of value from them, and the people that do it well know

how to grab your attention and make you aware of a product to the point

that you keep it front of mind when it's time to make a buying decision.

But it ends and it gets back to what you want to hear, the reason you tuned in.

And more than likely, people tune into a podcast because A, they're an

avid listener of the show and they've.

Transform themselves into an advocate and will listen to every

piece of content that comes out.

Or B, they're searching for a specific answer.

And whether they do it through Google, they find it on social media, they

get a recommendation from a friend.

The title of the show is more than likely going to grab somebody to the

point they click play and listen.

So if it's not being delivered after they click play, what they

want to hear, they tune out.

So from the guest perspective, if you come at it thinking, What do I want

the listener to hear when they hear me?

It's not a sales pitch, it's not an infomercial.

It's value.

It's a compelling story.

It's something they can relate to.

When you do that, you set yourself up for people to stay tuned in to listen through

your whole interview, and then when you get to the end of your conversation

with the host, then you can point them to where you want them to come next,

which should be your website, because that's introducing them to your world

and giving them an opportunity to learn more about what you do and how you can.

Yeah,

and I take the perspective that really anyone who has a personal

brand, business coaches and speakers and authors and course creators and

likes that and more precise, should be thinking about podcasting, at least as

a guest, if not having their own show.

Would you agree with that or do you have some different thoughts?

No I agree 100%.

In fact, I spend some time talking people out of starting their own podcast.

because I and I shouldn't.

And let me put the caveat on that.

So if you're in the mindset of wanting to start a podcast, that's fine.

And I think a lot of people believe that you have to have your own podcast

to be successful in this space, right?

And that's not the case because I know plenty of people that simply

build their brand by being a powerful, valuable guest on shows that align with

their mission, message, and objective.

and when you find the right shows to make a guest appearance on you, again,

like I said before, open up this world of opportunities to, well to bring all

of these new people into your world.

And the folks that are doing this well are really seeing gains for their

personal brand and for their overall business and company, whatever industry

and niche they have themselves playing.

So I tell people, listen, if you wanna start a podcast, just know upfront

there's a lot of work involved.

So if you have a team to help you do it, that's great.

If you are flying solo, here's what you need to understand about

this process and how to truly make a powerful podcast come to life.

And if you don't have time, it's not the best move to start a podcast.

Now, the better way to proceed is to get your feet.

By being a guest on the right shows.

In doing that, you build your brand, you develop your voice, you get

comfortable on the microphone, and you learn more about your brand story

and how to tell it in a compelling fashion that people will resonate with.

Yeah.

As you proceed with that, then you can make the decision in

saying, well, this is a lot of fun.

I'd love to have my own show.

Now you have some experience under your belt,.

and it makes the process a little bit easier and you can understand

what type of buy-in is needed to make your podcast take off.

So I always point people to guesting first because there's so much to be

gained from this that you can start your own show if you want to down

the road, but you get that important experience and take the practice swings

that help get you prepared to do this.

and once you do that, then you could really make things take off.

Yeah.

I wish I'd have that advice when I first started podcasting.

Oh, me too.

Because, because looking back, I, I think it would've made a big difference.

Instead, I did my learning curve as a host, which may you feel me?

Yes.

It similar experience for you.

I, I wonder that, I'm curious what kind of benefits you have

personally and professionally experienced because of podcasting.

Without question, the biggest.

Gain from podcasting.

It's the networking element that's, that's baked into this whole process.

I've made so many powerful connections that ha they've either become friends,

colleagues, they've pointed me towards business, or they've become clients.

Just from having these powerful conversations and approaching the

medium with respect and doing it right.

I don't treat any of these opportunities like transactions.

Yeah.

And I don't discriminate a podcast because it doesn't have enough

listeners, or the audience just isn't big enough for my time.

Uh, the hell if that.

I will talk to anybody at any time about this subject because I know exactly what

you are looking to build as a guest, or I'm sorry, as a host on a podcast, and if

I can contribute my expertise to help you build that content portfolio, I am all

in every chip to the middle of the table.

And I feel like more people need to start thinking of it on that

level because the gains that can come your way are tremendous.

And even if you don't get business from a specific podcast, as I said,

that networking element is huge.

because you're connecting with somebody that's like-minded that may

know some people that down the road.

And I, ab actually just had this happen.

I worked with a person who had a guest on her show.

I did the production for that show, well over a year ago.

She just reached out to me last week and said, Hey, one of my clients

is looking to start a podcast.

You were the first person that I thought of.

I need you to talk with him so he can get started on the.

Perfect.

And that was, again, that was a relationship that started well over a year

ago by helping that person be comfortable.

The role I was playing in that respect was coordinating the interviews,

getting everything set up, making sure that the person that was on the

guest side had everything they needed, making sure the host was set up so

they could have a good conversation.

That ultimately turned into a nice piece of content for

her to build her brand with.

But in doing that, I build a relationship with the guest to where over a year

later, she thought of me first.

That's the power of networking that's built in to the podcasting medium,

and whether you get business today.

Whether you get business a year from now, it's all proof that building

powerful relationships is what's going to carry you to success no matter

what space, industry niche that you are existing in today and podcasting.

the great thing about it is it plugs into that space no matter what it is,

so you can truly experience tremendous gains if you come at it the right way.

So for me, networking has been, without question, the greatest thing

that I've experienced in this space.

Yeah,

I would say that for myself as well.

It's so if you come at this with a connect.

Perspective and something you actually care about people and

want to help and make a difference and be nice to each other.

You can do very well.

I do.

Yeah.

Ash, as much as I'm sure you come across some people who are very transactional

about it all and will just want to.

Either just be on your show for what they can get out of it, or you'll be use,

you'll be in their good books for as long as you're useful, that kind of thing.

And you get that sense of that very quickly.

There are even people who try and charge people for carrying on their

show or things like that as well.

Which, yeah I've never yet to even considered.

I would pay but I could never say, never say never.

Maybe in the right circumstances I would,

but, well, well, not to.

I just wanna, I just started doing something with my show, and the reason

that I did this was because I was, my schedule was so booked out and as

I was connecting with people and I was sharing my scheduling link, and

they were saying, well, I can't get on your show until almost next year.

And I was just looking.

I was like, well, yeah, where I'm at right now, my schedule is booked.

But then I started thinking about it a little.

What if I offered the potential to do some expedited scheduling

and get the show released and there would be a charge to that?

Nothing huge, but I know how important these podcast interviews are for

people in their content strategy, and they want to have these interviews

out there because these little pieces of micro content serve as promotion,

as awareness, as brand building.

Waiting till next year or until the end of this year may not serve them.

So they may not wanna come on at all.

So I at least offer the option.

So I say, listen, if you want to wait till the end of the year, here's my link.

However, I do have these other options available.

There's a small fee, but we can expedite the process and I can build this.

So you're getting this content released much sooner, so you can

use it to build your message and take it to where you need it to.

, and that's starting to gain a little bit of traction for me.

And I'm just experimenting.

So I didn't throw huge price tags on this.

I wanted to see how this would work.

And so far the response has been positive because there's an option there.

I'm not doing, like you said, Johnny, like, oh yeah, it's gonna cost you

X amount of dollars across my show.

Like, no, I have the free option, but I know how important time is in this space.

So here are a couple additional options and we're, I'm gonna

see where this goes as it con as I continue to push it forward.

But I can.

I hear the question a lot.

How do I monetize my podcast?

Here's a, this is something I will say, and I can't speak to this 100% yet, but

create an environment that people wanna be a part of and make your content so

compelling that the conversations are to a point where you're booked out so far,

you have to start charging a premium.

For something that's expedited.

Is this a Monet monetization strategy?

I don't know yet.

I'm not going to get behind this 100%, but it again, the option is there and I

feel like that's a very fair way to give someone the option to choose when they

want to be a part of the show and have that piece of content work for them.

Yeah, exactly.

And I've heard, I think I've heard that strategy as well

from a few other podcasters.

I think Jeremy Ends was one of them and so yeah, I think it's a really good.

And haven't yet encountered a situation in my own show where there has been a

need for that, but it's in my mind now.

The seeds are planted and, and I will be thinking about that.

I dunno that anyone's in such a hurry right now to get the show

expedited on pod phones, but maybe, maybe a bit further down the light.

But this is, this is one of the things I think is really important with podcasting,

like you say about not paying too much attention to what kind of viewing stats

or listener stats the, the show has and.

That's important because I think if it's the right kind of show and the right kind

of conversation, which you do know pretty quick, I do get invited onto shows that

I just don't think I'm a good fit for, or they just starting out and they don't seem

to have much of a clue what they're about.

And I will turn those down.

And sometimes I feel bad about it.

Cause I think, well I didn't have much of a clue what I was about, but

I do, you know, I just, this is just a, I have to be careful of my time.

I have too much work really to be able to to do too much of that.

So I'm choosing carefully what I go on, but I'm not gonna turn someone

down because maybe they have, I dunno, 25 downloads per episodes.

I'm, if it's gonna be a good conversation, I'm gonna go on that.

But I also know I can probably help them and direct them to resources that are

gonna help to grow the show as well.

And to you don't know at what point in the future their show will take.

and people do.

This is maybe something a bit more unique to podcasting.

People will go through a back catalog and look for the episodes that are interesting

only about how you search for episodes.

But wh when I find a show I like, I'm not just listening to the latest

episode that comes out because I'm not always interested in them.

I will go through the list or if, if the latest episode comes out and I see

it and then, eh, then I, I'll look for another one that I'm more interested in.

Mm-hmm.

. The beauty of on-demand content is that you can ch pick and choose what

you want to listen to, and that to me, that speaks to why podcasters need to

produce quality content consistently.

Because if when you attract a listener, they may go through every

single episode because they're just that bought into what you're doing.

But they may do what you do, Johnny, and just look through the catalog

for titles that jump out and that to.

Is again, the beauty of odd demand content.

And maybe down the road they may say, well, I never listened to this one.

Let me see what this one's all about.

But ultimately, if you're gonna get them into your world and you're

gonna keep them locked into your show, you have to have that type of

quality content across the board.

And there's no doubt that you're gonna get better as you go forward with your show.

Because especially if you're starting fresh and you've never done

this before, there's a learning.

, but you wanna make sure that before you start, you're keeping that

listener experience in mind and always ask, who am I speaking to?

Who is my ideal listener for this content?

And when you start speaking to that one person, that means you're

creating content for one person.

It makes it a little bit easier because then you're gonna start attracting.

A bunch of people that are just like that one person, and that's

going to lead to growth over time.

It just, it doesn't happen overnight, which is one of the things that I think

a lot of podcasters get hung up on is they stare at that download metric.

What do I have to do to make this grow?

What's, why, why isn't, why aren't people coming to my show and listening?

Well, they just haven't discovered you yet, but you have to hold up

your end of the bargain by giving them something that's quality and

giving it to them consistently.

If you say you're going live every Thursday, or you're, if you're bringing

out a new show every Thursday, you damn well better bring out a new show.

No.

Every Thursday the average podcast listener consumes about six some,

almost seven hours of podcast content per week, and we have lives

outside of this, so you gotta.

If you think about what an average person does in that span, they're

listening to a podcast while they walk the dog or at the gym, or on

their morning and evening commute.

So whenever they have a podcast in their ear, they're gonna be pretty

selective about what they listen to.

So if your show enters into their orbit and it really grabs them and

they start listening and they become a.

and you come out every Thursday with a new episode, they can now build that

show into their every Thursday routine.

So if you, if they wake up and your show's there, maybe they're listening to it

at the gym or on that morning commute.

If you don't show up the next Thursday because you didn't plan accordingly and

you stopped being consistent, guess what?

They're gonna find another podcast.

And if that podcast comes into orbit and takes over, it's gonna

be difficult to get back into the.

Right.

You get a pass here and there because if people are truly fans

of your show, they'll come back.

But if you consistently stop being consistent, then people are gonna

find new shows to listen to because they are listening at a specific time.

So you wanna make sure you're there for them.

That's how you build good content that keeps the butts in the seat.

But then it also makes that person turn to a friend, a family

member, a colleague, and say, you know, I've been listening to pod.

The show is great.

You need to listen to this show.

I learned so much.

Every episode that I take in that recommend ability factor is enormous,

because if you have one listener of your show and that one listener

turns to a friend and says, you need to listen, and then they do.

Now you have two listeners.

And then if each of them turns to a friend, now you've got four.

And once this exponential growth kicks in, then you're off to the races.

But that takes.

So you have to be thinking, my end of this and what I can control is quality

content, putting it out consistently, and making sure that I'm speaking to

one person that will truly soak this in.

I will tell you, when I built my Ideal listener profile for my show as

I was doing it, I discovered it was myself like three years ago, , right?

Like I'm speaking to what I used to, what, what I used to be and

what I wanted to become in this.

That's who I'm speaking to, and not just in the podcasting space, but in the brand

building space, and ultimately in this, in this whole level or area of networking,

leveling up required me to talk to myself.

and that was how I built it.

And we've been after the races ever since.

For me, one of the key things, I'm kind of having a little

epiphany whilst we're speaking really, but one of the key things about why

I'm doing po Fluence is part for myself, but it was driven by what I.

Really, some of the things I really don't like in the word of marketing,

cause I do think podcasting essentially is a great marketing tool.

Mm-hmm.

. But it, we can't let market ruin it.

it never be with so many things, so is one that should be treated well.

But we see so many things like people, we have these regular experiences, pupil

trying to slide into our, the ends, into our own boxes and sell us stuff

with no relationship, no context, no.

Preamble, no handshake, no introduction, nothing.

And they're just in there trying to say you something.

Hey, I've got a product, Harry Bella service.

I get that people need to make a living, but I don't like those

ways of doing it and I don't feel comfortable doing those things myself.

But I find something like podcasting where you get to have a conversation and get to

connect with people and talk about what you do sometimes for quite a long time.

Yeah, that's a great.

For people to be able to get to really know you and know what you're about, and

hopefully have a sense of your personality and if you're someone that they vibe

with and that you can trust, and that, that is one of the main reasons why I

think podcasting is incredibly powerful.

Yeah I, I couldn't agree more and I'm, I'm with you on

the dms, the solicitation emails.

LinkedIn is, people are just notorious for this and it drives me crazy.

I'm.

Had a, I won't tell the full story, but I had a situation with someone that reached

out to me on LinkedIn and I thought we were having a genuine conversation.

We were talking about things that I do, things that she does.

Things seem to be going really well, and this is, to me, I'm thinking this is

what I want from this platform, from this network is these genuine conversations.

See if we can help one another.

And in my mind, I wasn't thinking sales at all.

I was just thinking, let's just keep building on this relationship.

down the road.

Maybe there is something that we can do to work together.

Who knows where this is going to go to.

All of a sudden, I had asked a question about something that, and, and it,

it spiraled into, now all of a sudden I'm getting sent a link to book a call

with somebody else in her company.

I'm like, well, wait a minute.

This was, I, I was like, I just thought we were talking here.

I wasn't looking to have this.

Well, I mean, if you really want to get answers to this,

you need to talk to this person.

They're the ones that handle this.

For me, I was like, you know, Forget it.

And so many people do that.

It's not about building relationships, it's that transaction.

How fast can I sell somebody?

How quickly can I get them to my sales page?

And if they have quotas, I get it.

But there are better ways to do it.

Think about from the podcasting's perspective and being a guest, speaking

from experience, and I'm sure people out there that have built their brands as

a podcast guest can speak to this as.

there are a lot of bottlenecks that you're going to run into getting this

off the ground because you have to start now, . It really is the best way to say

it, because podcasters are proactive.

They may not be able to get you on right away.

So finding the right shows is the first step, obviously.

But you have to be respectful of their schedule.

They might not be able to get you on tomorrow, maybe a few weeks, maybe next.

I've booked a few shows into 2023 already, because that's how far they're booked out.

Yeah, so there's one bottleneck.

Then once you actually do have the interview, then there's the period of

time before the interview goes live.

Some podcasters have, uh, a month, some two, some three, some again, another one

told me, oh, this will be out in 2023.

To which I mean that to me is a little too far because things can change a

lot for that person in that timeframe.

So you don't want to go too far outside of a, of the window of

making sure that it's relevant to the person that you just interviewed.

But that said, that's an example of another bottleneck.

So you have to be consistently looking for these opportunities because if

you don't set yourself up in that capacity, you're not gonna have

this content going live for a while.

So you have to make sure that you're set up.

Interviews to pop at all times.

And sales works the same way.

If you're looking to build a relationship with somebody that's

gonna take some time and you can't just immediately jump into bed.

It's like going on a first date and then immediately jumping into

bed with someone that happens.

, but how often do those relationships ever pan out, right?

Like there's this mindset of we have to sell, sell, sell right now, and then

we forego the relationship building.

So in the podcast space, the relationship building can be enormous.

Same as in the sales space.

And if you're constantly always thinking, I have to sell, I

have to sell, I have to sell.

Go work at a car dealership.

They will love your drive.

They will love your mentality because they're looking to move metal as fast as.

. But in the this world that we exist in, it takes time to build a relationship with

somebody and nurture that relationship to get them to a point to where

they're ready to do business with you.

So the podcasting platform from my side of this is the greatest way to

continue to have these conversations that over time are going to be

heard by different audiences.

There may be some crossover in the audiences, but the more

people hear my voice and hear my.

My hopes is that they want to have a conversation with me to see if it makes

sense for them to be mentored by me or to take advantage of some of my courses and

really see if it's a good fit for them.

But I'm not trying to sell that today.

I just want to be here to have a good conversation with you, Johnny.

We can share some ideas.

We can go back and forth on a, on the things we're passionate about, what we

love about podcasting, and the hopes is that resonates with the audience where

they'd want to take the next step and either give you a call, give me a call.

We're not sitting here going, you need to buy today or else, you

know, like that to me is, it's just such a horrible way to do business.

But like you said, so many people are in that mindset.

They have to do that and it's, ugh.

Cringeworthy

there, there were, there were some very specific things I had

in mind for who I wanted as guests on this show when I started, when

I relaunched the show, and one was people who have been building up a

business for themselves as podcasters.

Another was for people who have been building up their business

as podcast guests, and another for people who are, have maybe been

using podcasting as a marketing.

Platform for getting their ads on or sponsorships and those kinds

of arrangements and, and still wanting to have guests who can

come and talk about influence and persuasion stuff because, just because

that's deeply fascinating to me.

But what has been interesting is be since getting much more specific about

that, I thought, oh, that's really gonna narrow down and limit the kinds

of guests that I can get on the show.

Not so much.

It's actually just made it really clear to people who I want, and those people have.

Coming forward.

And so now I've actually been having quite a few conversations with people

who have built businesses through podcast guesting and thinking, wow, that is, I

think, what people need to hear when you build six figure seven figure businesses.

From being a podcast guest.

And that has been your main marketing strategy all the way through.

And not everyone is necessarily going to do that, but just so you know that

that's out there, people are doing it.

You can do that.

And if that's not enough to convince our listener to something, oh,

maybe I should be doing this then I don't really know what would do it.

But . Let's say, let's say our listener is think sibling hunting.

And yeah, I probably should be thinking about this.

It's like, maybe it's not gonna cover you that much money.

Maybe it's gonna cost you a bit of time and maybe there's a bit

of a learning curve to doing this, but where should I get started?

What do you

think?

I think the biggest thing you can do, and this is if you're looking to do

diy, and I will say, and, and again not to go into sales mode, I, I'm

happy to have a conversation with.

To determine whether a coaching program makes sense or if you're

just looking to specifically go diy.

Here are some pointers and I can obviously serve that master right now.

Go on to the the internet.

Start with Google and whatever industry you're in, just search best, fill in your

industry podcasts and see what pops up.

In doing that, the great thing about Google these days is

they're returning great podcasts.

Like they've really taken time to index and and use podcasts

as great search query results.

Mu much like anything else that you would find on Google, they've started

to respect what podcasts can deliver to people just as much as any other media.

So you're gonna get a nice list of podcasts that exist in your space,

and then you can look through that list and you can maybe see it.

The name of a podcast might jump outta you.

So you can click on that and then you can look through their catalog

and see what they're talking about.

And if there's topics that are very adjacent to what you talk about,

take a listen to that episode and see if you could provide just as

much value, if not more, as that guest that's on that specific.

If you could jot that down, then find maybe five podcasts total, and

then you'd wanna reach out to them in a very high quality way, something

that's gonna make you stand out.

And you want to put together a presentation that says that you

took time to listen to some of the content to make sure it resonated.

Because listen, I'm gonna bring this value to the show too, and here's why.

Podcasters get presentations and pitch.

In like in bulk, yeah.

Every week.

And many of them get overlooked because people just are sending this list of

accolades that they've accomplished and they think that's the reason

why they should be on the show.

Now, to anybody that's accomplished great things, I, I tip my cap and I

say, congratulations, that's fantastic.

Of course, you should be proud of what you accomplished, but I need to know

what type of value you're bringing to my.

What are we going to talk about that's going to resonate with my audience?

What was it in the content that you checked out that resonated with you, that

makes you feel that you'd be valuable?

That to me as a podcaster is what I'm looking for.

But so many people try to take shortcuts and just say, Hey, I

just left your review on your show.

You should put me on like, it's a bargaining ship, and I've heard

gurus recommend doing this, right?

Hell no, I, no.

After our conversation, Johnny, I will go leave a review on your

podcast because I've had interaction.

I know what the experience was like.

I can now go tell the listeners that might look through reviews what they'd

experienced listening to this show.

I don't wanna use it as a bargaining chip to get shoehorned into a guest appearance.

So to get started, that's the best way to do it.

And then you have to get your feet wet.

You have to practice, you have to get these practice swings in, which again is.

Fundamental step that so many people want to skip.

They feel like they just want to go on one podcast and expect the world

to show up at their door, ready to buy whatever they have, which is why

they switch into sales mode sometimes.

There's a lengthy process to this, and I'm really giving the Cliff's

Notes version of this right now, but make sure that no matter what you

do, it's rooted in value and it's.

Because if it's not, it's going to get exposed and you're not going to get a

lot of guest opportunities following that first, second, third one that

you do if you show up and just sell.

No one's going to want to book you.

If you show up with value and you start building a genuine relationship

with that host, they may say, listen, I've got a friend that does a podcast.

You'd be perfect now.

You just doubled your bookings without lifting a.

Okay, so again, we've talked about this in steps throughout our conversation

today, Johnny, but if you do it.

This value driven way and your mindset is not that you're there to sell, but

that you're there to tell a story, provide a great message, to get people to

understand what you do, who you are, and how you could help them solve a problem.

That's going to lead to much better results and it's

gonna get you a lot further.

So that's a great jumping off point for everybody

definitely.

And great value as well.

And I agree with everything you said there, it's taken me, took me a long

time to figure some of that out.

And you are one of the people who helped me figure some of that out as well.

So thank you for that.

You're welcome.

But it is super, super important to approach things from that perspective.

And I know as a show host, that's what I'm looking for.

And if somebody can't show me the value they're gonna bring.

Or I can't even at least see the potential for the value there.

Then I'm not even going to really entertain them as a potential guest.

What I will always do though, except in rare cases, like somebody who I has

specifically sought out and invited on the show, I ask everyone who applies

to be on the show, even if they've come through an agency or anything like that.

If they look interesting, they still have to fill out an application for.

Because that's answering the questions that I need to know the answers to it.

And if they can't do that for me, then I don't know if I should

bring them on the show or not.

And then we have a pre-show chat.

So, you know, I, I like to do things, I like to do things a certain way,

but there's such great value in this for people to get on shows.

And you say it's important to bring the stories.

I think it's important to bring some entertainment and some fun to podcasts

and I think a lot of people should.

A lot of people don't do that.

A lot of me, it's very dry content.

Yeah.

I wonder for you, what have been some of your weirdest

or strangest experiences as a

podcaster

One story I always like to tell is I was, I, this was on a past podcast

that I don't do anymore, but we had set up some time to interview.

Everything was fine.

We'd gone back and forth.

It was all good, and comes down to interview time.

I sign.

He signs on and he's driving in his car and he's in traffic and he, that's

where he wanted to do the inter.

I was like wait aren't you in front of your microphone?

No, no.

I got, I got held up, so I'm just gonna do it.

I'm like, no, we're not doing it here.

Like, you're driving, you're distracted.

You shouldn't be, you're, you should be focused on the road not talking to me.

That's not gonna make for the best.

So we ended up rescheduling actually.

I know.

You know, come to think about, I don't know if we ever ended

up doing that interview now.

I don't think we did.

The lesson I learned from that was I need to be more clear about

how I communicate with my guests.

To me, that was common knowledge that you're just gonna be in front of your

computer and we're going to have this conversation like we would any other time.

We'd have a meeting.

Not with somebody in rush hour traffic . So I learned from there.

Make sure to tell people, have a microphone.

Be in front of your computer with reliable internet in a quiet

environment so we can produce the best sounding audio for the audience.

So that's really what it's all about.

It's not about me and my preference.

It's not about you needing to be focused on the road and not on our convers.

It's about what's gonna make the best listener experience at the end.

Yeah.

And if the horns are beeping and there's all kinds of traffic

noises in the background, how is that quality for the listener?

That's terrible.

So if, if not, no, and that's where I do, I get frustrated when I see that

type of content still get put out because we're not in a place where

that learning curve is as steep.

It's definitely flattened because there's.

, you have to captivate that audience pretty much from the first time

they tune in because there's another podcast in their search that they

can listen to if you don't deliver.

So I'm, I'm getting off track from your question, but basically

that was, that was one of the weirdest experiences I've ever had.

I will, I will tell this story more for just the entertainment value behind

it because it's pretty funny back.

The first podcast we did was a beer podcast at that point in.

I was doing marketing and branding in the craft beer industry.

I was helping some of the local breweries here in Pittsburgh get their

products placed in bars and restaurants and bottle shops, things of that

nature, and really was enjoying it.

But in that time, I had this podcast and there was this big event that they

wanted me to do a live show from, and not really live as in like we were

projecting the message to the audience.

We were just there recording and people that were there would join us and.

Fun in the respect of what we were doing.

Us all together, having this conversation from a listener's standpoint, it was

just god awful . But right before we were getting ready to hit the

record button and get started one of the whiskey representatives that was

there comes up and puts three shots in front of me and she goes, you

have to do those before you start.

And I'd already been drinking beer.

I'm like, no, I don't think I can do this.

She's like, you have to.

I'm like, . Right.

So I.

and just, I mean, you can imagine where it went from there, . All I do

remember is that when I listen back to edit the next day, I had announced,

I had introduced myself with my co-hosts last name and did not even

realize that I did that in the moment.

And one of the guys that was a co-host, you hear 'em in the background

go, what'd you call yourself?

. So again, like I think back, I'm like, those were so fun to record,

but for a listener to ha have to try to consume that, those were not.

I wish.

I don't think I, I know for a fact I did not have the statistic

tied to our host at that time.

That would tell me the dropoff rate.

When did somebody tune out?

I would have to assume that it was very early in that

production that they walked away.

So yeah, that that was more, like I said, fun for me, not fun for the listener.

Probably not so much, but I think you, you've done a, a great job

today highlighting just how important the listener experience really is and,

and thinking about actual listener behaviors and making sure that you go

with those and there is a reality in life that unless if you're hosting a

podcast, unless your guest is a podcast or someone who has generally works with

audio in some way or maybe a YouTube or so that they're probably not gonna

care very much about audio quality.

in the way that you would, and sometimes even if you tell them to

have an external mic or to plug into the ethernet and all that kind of

stuff, it doesn't always happen.

Yeah.

But you know, there are things, there are things you can do to

minimize that in the long run.

But as a guest, do your host a favor.

and do the best or quality that you can manage with your

budget, and that's all we ask.

That's all we ask

. Jason Cercone: I, yeah, I, it's funny

told them about my training program, and they've asked, well, are you telling

people what to do for qual audio quality?

I'm like, absolutely I am.

Because I built a lot of this with the podcaster in mind because

again, like I said earlier in our conversation, I know what you want to

accomplish with your show, so it would.

Behoove me to train somebody to not be thinking the same way.

So minimums are having a, a microphone of some kind, having headphones and

having a quiet environment to record it.

Because again, if you're trying to be, if you're in the middle

of an office where there's people passing by and there's distractions

and interruptions, it hurts the.

. If you don't have a microphone, that external microphone

does not do you any favors.

So I tell everyone, if you wanna do this, let's do it right, and

you don't have to break the bank.

You can start with a microphone that just makes your voice sound more

professional, more clear, and again, helps that listener experience go

to the next level down the road.

If you're really into this and you feel like being a podcast guest is

the best way to build your brand going forward, and you wanna really go all

in, then you can invest a little bit more in some more expensive equipment.

But really what I, I tell podcasters, I tell guests, Focus on your voice.

Build your voice.

Find your voice gross.

Some confidence in how you project your message and tell your story.

Yeah, you wanna have the minimum requirements of Mike Headphone quiet

environment, but don't think about the fancy bells and whistles because

ag, a lot of times it's an obstacle.

That people will put in front of themselves to not get started, right?

I need to get the most expensive digital audio interface, and I have

to spend all this money and things.

Don't have that money right now.

So until I do, I'm not gonna move forward and it's the wrong mentality.

Get started.

See if you love this.

See if it works for you.

As you fall in love with the process, then you can invest some more money.

. But for now, just focus on getting better at your craft.

Take those practice swings, get the minimum requirements.

So you sound good in doing it, but like you said, Johnny, respecting that listener

experience is gonna make everybody win.

And podcasters are going to appreciate the fact that you're showing up,

thinking about their overall experience.

That's what will get you invited back for a second, third, fourth interview.

And,

Yeah.

Yeah.

We've heard you mention your course a few times and I'm guessing that

there's gonna be some people listening to this show who are thinking that

maybe I should check that out.

Maybe I should actually think about if I'm gonna be a podcast guest and

I wanna make sure I do it well, I should go and take a look at that.

How, or how I say where should they

go?

Find more.

They can visit guest accelerator.com.

. It's not, it's in theory a course, but really what I've built

it to be is more interactive.

It's a intensive training with additional sessions where we actually

do interviews to work on vocal quirks to work on your overall delivery.

My goal with this whole process is to make sure you understand what you can gain

from being a value-driven podcast guest.

also, how to execute all of the steps that it takes to really get

results from being a podcast guest.

So many people have said, and this was either to me in passing or back

when Clubhouse was a thing I heard people say, and they just didn't get

anything from being a podcast guest.

I don't know why I did it.

It doesn't work.

Well, if you only go on one interview, as I said before, the

world's not gonna show up at your.

You have to get better at your craft.

And that takes time and that takes consistently going on interviews.

And I'm not saying you go on interviews all day, every day, maybe do one a week

to get started and then build from there.

Build the foundation, get more confident, go from there.

But in that process, there's more steps than just booking an interview, showing

up and talking, and then walking away.

Because I said before, what was my most powerful takeaway from the podcast?

Networking.

You have to go into every guest appearance with the mindset of what can I do to build

a great relationship with this person?

How can I monetize this interview before it even goes live?

If you do things properly, you give yourself an opportunity to do that.

But if you just come in treating it like a transaction, no one's gonna wanna

take you seriously when the interview's over and they're probably just gonna

tune you out and not listen to anything.

Hell, if you spent the whole time in sales mode, they already feel

like they've been sold to, they're either gonna buy or they're not

So you have to treat this entire process as a means of networking with

the hosts and even with the audience, you can jump into social media

conversations and at least make your.

No and build some awareness around the fact that I just connected with

Johnny and we had a great conversation.

It's gonna be going live next month, but in the meantime, I'm here.

I can chat, we can talk, whatever.

I'm available.

My door is open.

You can not go into sales mode there either.

You're contributing valuable nuggets of information to the conversations

that are already taking place within that podcast, social media community.

So there are a lot of ways that you can really stand.

If you do it properly, you can really experience gains.

If you try to take shortcuts, that's when things fall short, and that's

really what I try to drive home within the guest accelerator program.

Here's how this works, and here's how you can benefit from being a podcast

guest and being a resource for podcasters before, during, and after your interview.

Once we get through the guest accelerator program, if you'd like to continue

working with me and get looking at shows to get you booked on and things of

that nature, I have programs for that.

But we start with guest accelerator to make sure the fundamentals are in place.

Yeah, fantastic stuff.

So anyone who wants to check that out, if you didn't grab the links there,

they are in the show notes for you to go and check out as well as you'll find a

link, link there to Jason's podcast or even put a link in there to podcast as

well, especially if it's coming back.

So, definitely good, good news to hear that that's on its way

back in some way, shape or form.

Yes, Jason, I wanna ask you, I wonder for you, what if you could send one

short message back to yourself at the time when you were starting out

in podcasting, what would it be?

Plan better.

My first podcast to tell a brief story was launched out of spite.

And I know that most people aren't going to do that, but

here's how it all unfolded.

I had started an app to help connect the craft beer community in Pittsburgh

with events that were going on across the city at different bars, breweries,

restaurants, big events that people could attend, and connections to

the tickets, all these things, and.

I did this obnoxious three week countdown to the launch of the app when it would

be available for download, and it was just, I was having some fun with it,

and that's really what it was all about when we're in the beer industry, right?

It's not supposed to be rigid and stiff.

So right when it launched, I had this guy just start trolling

me on Twitter about this app.

Oh you, you're doing this all wrong and this is never gonna

work, and blah, blah, blah.

I'm just like, well, you know nothing about what I'm doing.

That was my first experience with a troll, so I didn't have full

understanding of what that even meant.

But when I looked at what he did, I discovered he hosted a podcast and my

best friend and I had been kicking around ideas about what we were gonna do and

we couldn't land on anything concrete.

And then when I saw that, that's what he did.

, I texted my best friend, I said, I found out what we're gonna do.

We're gonna do a beer podcast and we're gonna do it better

than this guy and that.

And he, and he was a beer fan too.

He said, okay, that sounds great.

And then we like minimal conversation over the couple weeks, like,

yeah, we'll talk about beer, but we'll also talk about sports.

So we didn't clearly define our niche and we are all over the place.

And two weeks into the, from that Texas, this is what we're gonna do to launch day.

I mean, that was literally the timeframe.

Picked up some cheap microphones.

We recorded our first episode in a noisy bar.

It was garbage.

We learned as we went and we got better.

But if I look back on that, yes, it brought me back into the audio world.

It rekindled my passion for this, so I'll always be thankful for that.

But if I would've planned better, maybe that show would still be going.

Who knows?

But I, I just, I didn't know what I didn't know.

But the fortunate thing for everybody I work with, and everybody I speak to

now is I can take all those experiences and say, don't do this or do this.

And these are things that I've learned from over seven years in this.

They certainly make some great stories, and if anyone's listening,

who's thinking or has started a podcast for spurious reasons uh, like vengeance

or respite or, or anything else with 'em, I said, please let us know.

I'd love to hear your stories.

But , but Jason I, it's been a real pleasure speaking to you.

I feel, once again I've learned from you and I think.

Tune into the show, has learned something from, listen to you.

If they've been paying attention there, there's a lot to take in there.

Maybe a show, one of those kind of shows that he wants to go back and have some

listen a few listens through because there's a lot of good stuff in there.

But it's been an absolute pleasure speaking to you today and everyone

to thank you for coming, sort of sharing the message, but also

having a really fun conversation on

portraits.

And I appreciate the opportunity to talk with you, Johnny, and to

connect with your great audience.

It's been a real pleasure.

Thank you very much.

Now that was such a fun conversation to me to speak

with Jason, someone with whom I share so many things in common.

We are very similar in so many ways and we share a lot of similar opinions

with maybe a few important differences.

And this is one of the things that I think is particularly important for people

who, work in the same kind of area like Jason and I would potentially go for the

same kinds of clientele, and yet neither of us felt like we were in competition

with each other because we both offer different things in a different way.

We have our own styles, and we both felt that we were adding to the conversation,

not just doing exactly the same thing.

There's room for everyone.

My next episode will be continuing the series on the

seven deadly sins of podcasting.

We are moving things along.

If you want to get that kind of stuff in advance, you should be subscribed already

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