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Beyond Bars: A New Vision for Corrections
Episode 188 • 19th November 2024 • TonyTidbit: A Black Executive Perspective • TonyTidbit ™
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Episode Audio Link: https://podcast.ablackexec.com/episode/Beyond Bars: A New Vision for Corrections

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Join hosts Tony Tidbit and Chris P. Reed in this thought-provoking episode of the Black Executive Perspective podcast as they explore the innovative and compassionate approaches to corrections with Sheriff Peter J. Koutoujian of Middlesex County, Massachusetts. Sheriff Koutoujian shares his transformative vision, discussing various programs aimed at enhancing outcomes for incarcerated individuals, their families, and communities. From the creation of the Family Support Services Unit to the impactful Frederick Douglass Project, discover how one man's dedication is reshaping the justice system and fostering a more humane, rehabilitative approach to law enforcement. Don't miss this deep dive into the complexities of race, public service, and systemic change.

▶︎ In This Episode

00:00: Introduction and Mission

00:24: Discussing Race and Corporate America

01:13: Introducing Sheriff Peter J. Koutoujian

02:58: Sheriff Koutoujian's Background and Family

06:09: Innovative Programs in Corrections

09:36: Challenges and Advocacy in Public Service

18:45: Health Disparities and Legislative Efforts

26:47: Innovations in Law Enforcement

27:57: Innovative Treatment Programs in Massachusetts

28:28: Young Adult Offender Program

30:01: Supporting Families of the Incarcerated

31:30: Advocating for Change

34:40: Family Support Services Unit

41:48: Frederick Douglass Project

48:25: Recruitment and Diversity in Corrections

53:19: Final Thoughts and Call to Action

🔗 Resources

Links and resources mentioned in this episode:

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Transcripts

Speaker:

Sheriff Peter Koutoujian: Our

families and communities have

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given up on they've cast away.

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They don't care about anymore.

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Um, they violated their norms.

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They violated their relationships, but

there's got to be someone that cares

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about them to help them get back on track.

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Right?

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And I love being that guy.

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I love having the staff that we have

that we have in this facility to help

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people turn their lives around to make

them know that they are that they matter.

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And that we want the best for them.

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Tony Tidbit: We'll

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discuss race and how it plays a factor.

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How we didn't even talk about this topic.

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Because we were afraid.

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A Black

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BEP Narrator: Executive Perspective.

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Tony Tidbit: We are live

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at the new BEP studio.

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Bringing you another thought

provoking episode of a Black

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Executive Perspective podcast.

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A safe space where we discuss

all matters related to race.

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Especially race in corporate America.

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A I'm your host, Tony Tidbitt.

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Chris P. Reed: And I'm

your co host, Chris P.

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Reid.

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Before we get too far into this, we want

to definitely remember to have you check

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is saving the Black family by

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first saving the Black man.

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com.

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CodeM Magazine.

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Make sure you check them out.

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Tony Tidbit: Yeah, make

sure you check them out.

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And you're gonna check

out our guest today.

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Cause we're joined by a visionary . In

the world of corrections, Sheriff Peter J.

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Koutoujian of Middlesex

County, Massachusetts.

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The sheriff has dedicated his career

to not just managing, but fundamentally

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transforming how we think about

corrections and rehabilitation.

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We're going to dive into his

innovative programs he has introduced

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that aim to enhance outcomes

for incarcerated individuals.

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Their families and communities.

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And he's going to discuss how

these initiatives are shaping

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a fairer justice system.

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Chris P. Reed: Let me give you a little

bit of background though, before we get

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too far into this Tony and audience,

uh, sheriff, Peter Koutoujian, the

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30th sheriff of Middlesex County,

Massachusetts, where he, where he brings

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a wealth of experience as a former.

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Assistant District Attorney and a member

of the Massachusetts State Legislature.

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Sheriff Koutoujian has created a way

to use his experience and position

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within the criminal justice system

to transform the broader landscape

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with the use of tailored treatment

programs that tackle the root causes

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of the criminal justice involvement.

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As the head of a comprehensive law

enforcement agency, Sheriff Koutoujian

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manages more than 700 employees

and an annual budget of 77 million.

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His efforts bridge public

health, safety, and service.

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Sheriff Peter Koutoujian.

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Welcome to a black executive

perspective podcast, sir.

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Sheriff Peter Koutoujian:

Thank you so much, Chris.

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Great to be with you.

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And Tony really been excited

and looking forward to this day.

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Yeah, we have as well,

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Tony Tidbit: buddy.

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So listen, you're doing

some real cool stuff.

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So we're excited to hear from you,

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Chris P. Reed: but go ahead, Chris.

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It's a mouthful.

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That's a mouthful.

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But, uh, so you know what, let's

just start it off real nice and easy.

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Uh, sheriff, could you, can you tell us

more about where you currently reside

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and, and some of your family dynamics

and things of that nature, things

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that are near and dear to your heart?

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Sheriff Peter Koutoujian: Sure.

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Um, you know, I'm a, I'm a kid

from Waltham, Massachusetts, and.

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No matter where I go in the

country, I always say I'm just

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a kid from Waltham, right?

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I always feel like if you forget where

you came from, um, you get lost, right?

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So I'm a kid from Waltham, modest

blue collar community, about 60,

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000 right here in Middlesex County.

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My, uh, my mother was a teacher,

my father was a city clerk for over

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30 years, uh, running the municipal

elections and marriage licenses

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and, um, uh, death certificates, all

the things that a city clerk does.

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Uh, and a true public servant, someone,

someone that inspired me, um, you know,

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I, I was lucky enough to get up to go

to, um, uh, an undergraduate school at

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a state school here in Massachusetts,

Bridgewater State University.

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My son goes there now, my mother,

who's 86 years old, actually takes

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classes at the senior college

virtually now, which I love.

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We got.

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She loves to tell people that she

goes to college with her grandson.

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I don't think he finds it as amusing

as she does, but it's really cute.

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Um, and then I was able to go to New

England law to get my law degree.

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And then I went to the Kennedy school

for a master's in public administration.

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Middle six County is 1.

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8 million people, uh, 54 independent

in individual cities and towns.

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Um, and a little bit more about me as.

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My father was Armenian American.

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Um, uh, his, his parents, my grandparents

actually fled the Armenian genocide,

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um, uh, fleeing, um, you know,

historic Armenia with really nothing

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but the clothing on their back and

ending up in this great country and

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raising a family here and becoming

the truest of patriots, my mother.

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Um, was Irish American, uh,

second generation Irish American.

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And so I really had this great

blend of two cultures of being,

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uh, both Irish and Armenian.

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Uh, and then, uh, and then

being American at the same time.

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And having this blend was

really special in my life.

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My mother embraced the Arminianism

of my father in a way that, um,

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uh, many might not have expected,

but she pushed me more into my

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Arminianism than my father really did.

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Um, and it is, uh, it's been

a rich and beautiful, um,

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you know, life that I've had.

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And, uh, you know, I'm really lucky

to, uh, to be here right now, quite

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honestly, in a job that I love so much.

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Tony Tidbit: So listen, my

friend, thank you for that.

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That is awesome.

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Uh, you know, family is very important.

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It shapes us who we are

positively or negatively.

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So it's great to hear about.

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You know, you came from a strong family.

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They had a lot to do in terms

of your makeup in terms of where

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you, what you're doing today.

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And we definitely want to dive

in more to, to learn about them.

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Cause I, obviously, you know, your, your

job is to oversee a department that is

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really about protecting all citizens,

um, regardless of where they come from.

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So we really want to dive into that.

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But the question I have for you is,

you know, why did you want to come

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on and talk about this topic on a

black executive perspective podcast?

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Sheriff Peter Koutoujian:

Well, honestly, I'm.

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I'm a lifelong public servant.

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I've had a blessed professional

life in serving others, right?

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I mean, honestly, that's

what public servants do.

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And I love the profession, and I love

doing good work for the profession, and

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I love bringing honor to the profession.

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To the profession of

public service, right?

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You know, it's just something

I feel really strong about it.

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And I love the fact that we get

to watch out for those that might

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be a little bit more vulnerable

that might need a little help.

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I mean, that's what our government

and that's what our public service

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is here for is to support people

to support our communities,

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individuals, families and communities.

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That's what I get to do.

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And not many people understand what

role a sheriff can have in their lives.

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Or, you know, if you have to be sent

to a place of incarceration, what it

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can be like, you know, if you have

to be there, what it can be like.

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And to allow people the opportunities

to turn their lives around while

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they're serving the sentence

dictated by the court, right?

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Um, and quite honestly, one of the

other things I say, you know, and I'll

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probably close with this again is, you

know, whenever I go in public, Tony

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or Chris and I speak to any group,

it can be people of color, it could

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be white folks, it could be wealthy,

poor, it doesn't matter, right?

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Anywhere in my And I always ask three

questions, how many people know someone

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that has struggled with substance

use disorder, raise your hand.

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It's always two thirds, three quarters,

100 percent of the room raises their hand.

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How many people know someone that

struggled with mental illness?

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Always the same thing up to 100

percent always three quarters to 100%.

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And then I ask a final question,

which seems like you'd get

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much lower hand raising.

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Uh, how many people know

someone's been incarcerated?

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And it's always the same number.

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We all know someone, right?

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And I got to get to the point

that it's not those people, man.

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It's us.

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It's our people.

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It's our family and our friends and

our neighbors and our cousins and our

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neighbors kids that we're speaking about.

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And all of these people deserve

the opportunity to be treated with

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dignity, respect, be given the tools

to help turn their lives around.

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and be treated like

they're a person, right?

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Um, so that when they come back

out, um, they're a much, they're a

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more productive member of society.

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And that's, I never thought

about becoming sheriff.

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It's not something I sought, right?

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Um, as a matter of fact, when the

first, I was, I was initially appointed

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by Governor Deval Patrick here, a

great black executive, by the way,

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um, um, great man, great governor.

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And, uh, he actually

allowed me this opportunity.

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But when people first reached out

and said, you should ask the governor

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for this initial appointment.

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I've now run three times.

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And I was thinking, man, like,

why would I want to be sheriff?

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Like, I don't really get that.

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Like, that doesn't like,

why would I want to do that?

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And then I started looking

into the job because I never

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say never to anything, right?

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I started looking into it.

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And I, I said, man, what a

great opportunity to, to, to

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serve the least of us, right?

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This is the way I also

think about it, right?

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It's, it's, it's, it's, uh, serving

the least of us, the people that,

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um, our families and communities

have given up on, they've cast

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away, they don't care about anymore.

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Right.

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Um, they violated their norms.

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They violated their relationships, but

there's got to be someone that cares

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about them to help them get back on track.

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Right.

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And I love being that guy.

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I love having the staff that we have,

that we have in this facility to help

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people turn their lives around to make

them know that they are, that they matter

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and that we want the best for them.

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People actually say to me, Aren't you

afraid when you go out in public because

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I go inside the facility pretty often

Aren't you afraid when you go into public

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that someone's going to recognize you?

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And my response is always like I hope

they do Because you know, they they know

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that they they know that i'm there trying

to help them And I love being able to

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see them in the community so they can

understand how they're doing and and

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how what we've done is Helped or maybe

didn't help them enough and How maybe we

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can do a better service while we're at

the, while people are at our facility.

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Tony Tidbit: Right, right, buddy.

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I mean, look, we, we, we at the

beginning of the show and you,

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and you, you, my man, I mean, did he,

how many cups of coffee did you have?

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I'm talking about somebody

that's very passionate.

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I love it, man.

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So, so listen, I'm glad you're on because

to your point, and then you said a few

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things there, you said a lot of stuff.

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That not only resonated with me,

I could see Chris's response.

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It also resonated with our audience.

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We all know somebody

that's been incarcerated.

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Right.

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We, we do sometimes treat them as

they, uh, um, have leopard disease.

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All right.

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They're leper, right?

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And that's an old, you

know, um, um, um, disease.

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People used to have them put back

in the olden days and put him in the

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cave and nobody would go near him.

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Right.

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And we do treat him that way.

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And then when they do come out,

they don't have a chance, right?

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They're set up for failure.

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Right.

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And then I think the other thing

that you said, which is key, uh,

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Um, also key is that most people

don't know what a sheriff does.

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You know, I, you know, yo Sammy, yo Sammy.

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I mean, most, I'm Marshall

Dillon, you know, most people

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and I'm dating myself, right?

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But most people don't.

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So we're glad you're here.

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We see you chomping at the bit.

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All right.

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The talk about it.

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So you ready to talk about it?

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Sheriff?

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Sheriff Peter Koutoujian: I'm

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Tony Tidbit: ready to go.

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Let's go.

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All right, buddy.

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Let's talk about it.

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Chris P. Reed: All right, so you

know what, let's, uh, go back because

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you intrigued me as a historian.

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You intrigued me with the

history, especially your mom and

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I respect and appreciate that.

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And trust me, your son will, will change

his tune as he gets a little years under

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him and realize how special this is.

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But go back to even more earlier

influences or memories of the

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community because you said something

about just being a guy from Walham.

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I think that's how you

pronounce it, right?

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Waltham.

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Waltham.

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So, Waltham.

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Okay, there we go.

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See, see, I'm learning something today.

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So, I'm expanding my horizons.

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But, how did Waltham Contribute to shaping

the man that we have before us today.

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Sheriff Peter Koutoujian: So, you know,

it was, it was a blue collar community.

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It was a little bit of a tough community.

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Um, quite honestly, uh, I grew

up in the tougher part of the

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neighborhood and, uh, um, my junior

high school years were not easy ones.

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I'll just say that, right.

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I was the only kid with braces in my

neighborhood in my junior high school.

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I was the only kid wearing

that horrible headgear.

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You know, the old headgear around the face

because my mom made me wear it to school.

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It was horrifying and basically

that was just asking for a

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beating right there, right?

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So those years were very difficult for me.

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Um, and I think that for

any executive, right?

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You always think about the dark times,

the difficult times that that, that

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put you through the ringer that gave

you that metal that gave you that

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grit that you went through those dark

times, you became stronger for that.

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And I, and I think I did with

that, but what was also great about

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wallfam was it was a very ethnic

community, but it also took good

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care of people with disabilities.

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So, um, you know, so since I was

a kid and even today, I still, uh,

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volunteer with, um, for organizations

that support people with intellectual

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and cognitive disabilities, right.

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I still volunteer at, you know, at

shelters serving on Thanksgiving

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and in other evenings of the year.

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These are service lessons that

I just learned in my hometown.

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The kind of nice thing, and I say this

because, you know, I would grow up with

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people with disabilities, intellectual and

cognitive disabilities, and they weren't,

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you know, they weren't those people.

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They were my friends, right?

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I kind of grew up with them, uh, and

have soft sought my heart for them.

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And we, and I would still see them at

events going, you know, even today.

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Uh, and that was a special relationship

that I realized I was really lucky

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to have growing up in my community.

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Chris P. Reed: Your mom is coming out

to be the toughest person in Waltham.

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Yeah.

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She's pretty strong.

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Yeah.

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You

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Tony Tidbit: ain't lying.

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I don't even want to deal with it.

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Chris P. Reed: She was on the

right track, but you had mentioned

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their professions earlier.

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How did their professions

and her toughness and the

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community all included it?

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to create your perspecti public service.

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Sheriff Peter Koutoujian: Yeah.

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So my mom's.

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Yeah, absolutely servants, right?

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That's w I grew up, I didn't know that.

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You know, um, and m a teacher.

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Then she, then a period of time that you

as my sister and I grew u dad stayed in

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municipal g town of Waltham became th

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As one of the finest clerks and

civil servants in the in the state.

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So this is how I grew up.

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And I think they just gave me an

appreciation of the value of that.

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Now, what I really appreciate is the

fact that I kind of entered public

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service and now am I glad I did right?

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You know, like, like, like, had

I gone someplace else, maybe

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I would have come back, but.

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For many people, what I try to instill

upon them is the value of public

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service, the joy of public service.

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You don't, you know, I don't get paid

as well as some of my counterparts

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or my contemporaries or people

with the same number of degrees

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or whatever it might be, right?

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I don't get, I don't get paid as much

as them, but man, if I love my jobs.

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You know, like, like, once I

figured it out and part of the

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reason I actually started a unit

for young adult offenders, right?

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Um, because I was that young adult

that I wasn't an offender, but I

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had didn't have my act together.

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You know, that age to

about 26 year old that.

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the fuller maturation.

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I was that guy.

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I didn't have my act together.

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And I, and I, and I really struggled,

um, in those years because I didn't

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know the direction I wanted to go to.

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And then one gentleman, Judge Jim Lawton

allowed me to attend my law school, right?

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And I never looked back.

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I never made that mistake

of messing around.

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I worked, you know, my, my, my, my,

My mantra my whole life has been the

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harder I work, the luckier I get right.

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And I worked really hard in my life in

public services, a series of blessings

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because I worked hard and then things

opened up and I started as a, you

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know, private practitioner, but a

public defender, um, uh, for court

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appointed work for, uh, indigent,

um, people charged with crimes.

356

:

And then I, then because I saw the value.

357

:

Of justice in their lives.

358

:

I, I applied and was lucky enough to

be chosen to become a prosecutor in the

359

:

Middlesex District attorney's office.

360

:

Not because I wanted to put people in

jail, but because I wanted to make sure

361

:

I was doing the right thing by people.

362

:

You know?

363

:

Um, you, you can see you can do justice

in that role and I really found that a

364

:

beautiful thing that I was able to do.

365

:

protecting our communities

at the same time.

366

:

And then, um, you know, however it was,

I worked hard and then I got lucky.

367

:

There was an opportunity to run

for state representative and

368

:

I, I ran, I defeated incumbent.

369

:

Um, I served in the legislature

for 14 years and I was the chairman

370

:

of the committee on health care.

371

:

for about six or eight of those years,

which informed me about how to be a

372

:

sheriff more than being, you know, going

through a sheriff's office in some ways

373

:

from an outside perspective, you know,

taught me about, you know, substance use

374

:

disorder and mental illness and medication

assisted treatment and trauma and self

375

:

harm, suicide issues, all the things

that we deal with with our population.

376

:

And then Miraculously, this job opened up.

377

:

So I have, I've not been as paid

well as some of my contemporaries,

378

:

but the fact is, I've loved my

jobs, every single one of them.

379

:

And I can't imagine being more

fulfilled in my professional life or my

380

:

personal life because of that as well.

381

:

Tony Tidbit: That is, I mean,

look, that is awesome, my friend.

382

:

And, you know, starting with a foundation

of your, your father being public

383

:

service, you had something to look up to.

384

:

You talked a little bit how

you navigated, you know, from

385

:

law school, public defender,

prosecutor, um, now sheriff, right?

386

:

And then obviously as you go through

the system and being on all three sides,

387

:

public defender, prosecutor, and then

the sheriff, you've seen a lot of the,

388

:

you've seen how people of color, you

know, Get caught up in the system.

389

:

Okay.

390

:

And, and look, at the end of the day,

we all got to hope we have to hold

391

:

everyone accountable for right and wrong.

392

:

So that's not even the issue, but

you've seen all three sides of that.

393

:

Right.

394

:

So talk, tell us a little bit in terms

of what some of the things that you

395

:

learned because you've been on, you

were the former, uh, the former house

396

:

chair of commissions to end Racial and

ethnic, ethnic health disparities, right?

397

:

So talk a little bit about some of

the things through that journey within

398

:

the system that you've learned about,

you know, what happens to people of

399

:

color when they're in and how tough

it is for not just to get out, but

400

:

to be successful as they come up.

401

:

Sheriff Peter Koutoujian: Yeah, so

thank you for that question, Tony.

402

:

Um, some of the proudest work I did

is something that not many people,

403

:

um, noticed at the time necessarily

or, or even remember, quite honestly.

404

:

Listen, I had a good, good friend

in my legislative aide, uh, Dan

405

:

Delaney, who was a man of color.

406

:

You know, I still consider him

one of my closest friends, right?

407

:

And it was through Dan that I got

to see the world through the eyes

408

:

of a black man, honestly, right?

409

:

And to understand this, you know, uh,

driving while black was a real thing and

410

:

all these things that you hear about.

411

:

I was educated.

412

:

I was lucky enough to

be educated by a man.

413

:

with some experience, some

knowledge and a lot of intellect.

414

:

Great man.

415

:

And so as we began to explore, um,

the world of healthcare when I was

416

:

chairman of that committee, we came

to realize something that was really

417

:

obvious that, uh, people of color, um,

uh, they died earlier, they suffered

418

:

more disease, premature mortality from

births or like, you know, five, 10, 15

419

:

times higher than the white community.

420

:

You know cancers heart conditions all

these things that were that communities

421

:

of color and poor communities struggled

with And no one seemed to care.

422

:

You know, this is what that

doesn't really bother me, right?

423

:

If it was happening to the Irish community

of the Armenian community of the Italian

424

:

community of the Jewish community,

there'd be there'd be a human cry, right?

425

:

This is the injustice of this is

wrong, and we need to fix this.

426

:

But because it was happening in the

black and brown community, no one,

427

:

you know, not that they didn't care,

but there was no one doing something.

428

:

What was even worse was there was no

one calling for a real study of it.

429

:

Right.

430

:

You had academic studies here and there.

431

:

So I remember speaking with Dan and we

had the idea that, uh, I should ask the

432

:

speaker of the house, uh, to consider, uh,

establishing a commission to study racial

433

:

and, uh, uh, the, the, um, racial and

uh, ethnic minority health disparities.

434

:

Right.

435

:

Um, and it was a

conservative speaker, right?

436

:

Um, democrat, conservative

speaker, and he wasn't interested.

437

:

Now.

438

:

I don't think it was

because it was a racist.

439

:

You I think it was because he's thinking

it's going to cost a lot of money.

440

:

We're going to open up a Pandora's box.

441

:

It's going to cost a lot of money.

442

:

So.

443

:

You know, the motivations may not

have been perfect, but they weren't

444

:

the wrong motivations, right?

445

:

Tony Tidbit: Right.

446

:

Sheriff Peter Koutoujian: Can you

447

:

Tony Tidbit: stop right

there for a second?

448

:

Because I want you to finish,

but you make a good point here.

449

:

And I want to dive into that, right?

450

:

Because at the end of the day, and, and,

and don't lose your train of thought

451

:

because I want to go there, right?

452

:

However, we, we got to also be, we got

to be honest because a lot of times, even

453

:

though people running for public service,

or they're in public service, right?

454

:

And.

455

:

They also, they get their

job by getting elected.

456

:

All right.

457

:

So if there are certain, uh, um, issues

that they don't feel is going to help

458

:

them, or they don't feel they have a

whole wave of support behind them to

459

:

jump on it, that's going to help them.

460

:

Get that wave of that reelection.

461

:

It doesn't mean that they,

I don't believe in it.

462

:

It's like, I'm trying to keep my job too.

463

:

So talk a little and

then finish your story.

464

:

Sheriff Peter Koutoujian: Yeah.

465

:

So, I mean, listen, he

cared about people, right?

466

:

That wasn't the issue, right?

467

:

Right.

468

:

Um, and so I went at him the first time

and he wasn't particularly interested.

469

:

I went at him a second time.

470

:

He wasn't particularly interested.

471

:

I, I went at him a third time and he

said, well, I'm concerned about this.

472

:

I said, Amen.

473

:

Hallelujah.

474

:

I got an opening here.

475

:

Right.

476

:

And so it changed some of the language.

477

:

Um, and, and we worked it.

478

:

Now understand this was not a powerful

community that was demanding this,

479

:

this was just Peter Ian is thing.

480

:

Right.

481

:

This is one man.

482

:

Yeah.

483

:

Tony Tidbit: One man one, exactly.

484

:

Sheriff Peter Koutoujian: That.

485

:

Believed in it, understood

it, and knew it was important.

486

:

Exactly.

487

:

Right.

488

:

Exactly.

489

:

That's all it was, was one person

that cared enough, um, you know,

490

:

to, to fight for a community that.

491

:

being, I don't know, um, considered

valued or paid attention to, I guess.

492

:

And we're suffering for that, right?

493

:

So I went out, I mean, and by the

way, this is a lesson for anyone

494

:

that's advocating, advocate, go at it.

495

:

And if you said no, that doesn't,

that's not the end of it, man.

496

:

You got to go back again

and you go back again.

497

:

If you believe in it, go back.

498

:

Now you don't have to cause trouble.

499

:

You don't have to cause terror.

500

:

You don't have to be a jerk, right?

501

:

But go and advocate again.

502

:

Don't take no for an answer.

503

:

If it's the right thing to

do, you should go back again.

504

:

And if they say no after 10 times,

maybe you got, you know, maybe

505

:

there's only so much you can do.

506

:

But the fact is, don't stop.

507

:

And I went back three or four times.

508

:

And the speaker said, okay, let's do it.

509

:

And we created this study that we had.

510

:

I'm telling you, man, we had

hearings across the state.

511

:

We probably about 50

people on the commission.

512

:

We heard from experts around the

state and around the country.

513

:

We issued a report in

:

514

:

And it's establishment of the data of

what's happening in communities of color

515

:

and ethnic communities and the barriers.

516

:

And the insurance issues

and so many and their living

517

:

conditions and where they live.

518

:

Do they live, you know, do

they live in parts of town that

519

:

are closer to the highways?

520

:

And you've got particular matter

that are affecting their, you know,

521

:

all these things, you know, the,

the, the issue of healthy eating.

522

:

I mean, we went into all that stuff.

523

:

That was amazing.

524

:

We did it.

525

:

You know, the sad thing though, Tony

and Chris is no one really cared.

526

:

The study was published.

527

:

I was really proud and no one did

much about it because quite honestly,

528

:

a lot needed to be done about it.

529

:

Now, the saddest part of this is that

what, you know, 25 years later or what

530

:

almost, you know, um, now, um, there's

a new commission to study racial and

531

:

ethnic minority health disparities.

532

:

My gosh.

533

:

Just look, my report, my report,

it's as valuable and important

534

:

today as it was back then.

535

:

You don't need to go restudy

it, just do something about it.

536

:

And that's what I feel frustrated

about is that people aren't stepping

537

:

up and doing something about it in a

way that would matter to communities.

538

:

Tony Tidbit: Right.

539

:

Right.

540

:

You know, my friend, so, and

again, that's, that, that's

541

:

pretty much in every industry.

542

:

I hate to say it right.

543

:

That, you know, you get a

champion that's really pushing

544

:

something that they believe in.

545

:

Um, it's, they see certain inequities,

things that could be fixed.

546

:

Um, we finally convinced the powers to

be, to jump into it and let's do it.

547

:

And then they finally say, okay,

you know what, let's do it.

548

:

And then when you get there and

you get all the information, It

549

:

ends up sitting and nobody never

does anything in 20 years later.

550

:

You still got the same problem, right?

551

:

Same thing.

552

:

Same thing.

553

:

So, so when, so based on that,

my friend, um, knowing that

554

:

you cared about your community.

555

:

Right.

556

:

And knowing that this was an issue

that you, you champion and push

557

:

and yes, you got them to do it,

but not, not a lot of things came

558

:

out of it, but you didn't stop.

559

:

So talk a little bit more about the things

that you went on that you could control

560

:

that you could do to make a difference.

561

:

Sheriff Peter Koutoujian: Yep.

562

:

So, I mean, listen, we did

things that impact the community.

563

:

We do things that impact.

564

:

population.

565

:

We do things that impact the

law enforcement profession.

566

:

So, you know, like one of the

things that I really love about this

567

:

job is you get to be innovative.

568

:

You get to try new things,

you get to collect data.

569

:

And by the way, if the data

shows the program wasn't

570

:

efficacious, it didn't work.

571

:

Then you can get rid of the program and

or revamp it and find a new program,

572

:

which we've done many times on this.

573

:

So we started with, um, probably our

very first specialty unit because

574

:

it was a culture in my facility.

575

:

Um, That was, um, uh, probably

not as open about new progressive

576

:

or specialty units, right?

577

:

It was sort of a, it was just a

traditional corrections mentality.

578

:

And so we started with a veterans unit.

579

:

Um, I, I felt like our officers would buy

into this because it was about veterans.

580

:

It was very supportive of veterans.

581

:

Uh, the only, the only kind of daring

part I'd say where it pushed the envelope

582

:

a little bit was that I insisted that

we accept veterans that have been

583

:

discharged, uh, uh, dishonorably or other

than honorably, because quite honestly,

584

:

if you raise your hand in defense of

our country, I don't care why you're

585

:

in there or how you were discharged.

586

:

I'm going to, I'm going

to serve you, right?

587

:

And I just think that was really

important that we honor those that

588

:

served our country and raise their

hand to protect us with their lives.

589

:

And then it's, then it moved on to,

uh, uh, medic medication assisted

590

:

treatment for the treatment of opioids.

591

:

We've got a terrible problem

in Massachusetts and greater,

592

:

um, a New England area.

593

:

Uh, and so we started a medication

assisted treatment program

594

:

about 11 or 12 years ago.

595

:

That was really cutting edge at the time.

596

:

I brought this from my

state house experience.

597

:

Uh, we became one of the 1st in the

country to use medication assisted

598

:

treatment in a carceral facility.

599

:

And that has worked out to be,

it's become a nation leading model.

600

:

Actually, we're still used as

a model as to how to, um, to

601

:

create in these, these systems.

602

:

And then 1 of the things that I was

really proud of was from I mentioned

603

:

from my own experience as a young adult.

604

:

I created a young adult offender

program, the first of its kind in a jail.

605

:

So treating those from 18 through

26 years old, um, uh, in a different

606

:

way, a whole remaking of this, uh, of

the way that we deal with corrections

607

:

with this age group, you know, these,

these young men are, you know, all the

608

:

science has shown us that they're later

in maturation than we believe, right?

609

:

We think that they're all adults

by the time they're 18 or 21.

610

:

Right.

611

:

That ain't true.

612

:

Right.

613

:

Um, we, that they, that they,

uh, engage in riskier behaviors,

614

:

especially the young men.

615

:

It's just kind of a natural thing to do.

616

:

Um, that they, um, they don't understand

the consequences of their actions.

617

:

Something that I didn't understand,

even though I wasn't justice involved.

618

:

So that you're doing things you

don't realize how it's going to

619

:

mess up the rest of your life.

620

:

Uh, and the fact that they have

higher rates of recidivism and,

621

:

uh, and problematic behavior.

622

:

They also have higher rates of, for

those that are incarcerated, much higher

623

:

rates of trauma in their households.

624

:

Right?

625

:

So this is something that

makes them different.

626

:

So we started this unit using cognitive

behavioral therapies, a whole different

627

:

way to look at it, um, and address them.

628

:

It's a unit where, uh, Um, you know,

a lot of the gang affiliated folks

629

:

come in, they leave their colors

at the door, they make it work.

630

:

It's a unit, uh, that the

officers are much more available.

631

:

Um, they're around speaking to

individuals one on one place.

632

:

You wouldn't really see that

in the rest of the facility.

633

:

Uh, and the recidivism rate is

remarkably low for this age group.

634

:

I think it's around 15%.

635

:

So 85 percent don't recidivate and that

and that just has led to more and more,

636

:

you know, Whether it's our women's

pre release or family support services

637

:

program, which was really, um, I'm

really proud of because one of the things

638

:

is we think about we're so focused on

the person that's incarcerated, right?

639

:

Getting them better.

640

:

We think about them a lot.

641

:

We forget about the victim

of the crime, right?

642

:

We just don't even think

about them very much.

643

:

But the one group that we never think

about at all is the family members

644

:

of the incarcerated individual.

645

:

So we actually support the family members.

646

:

For more information, visit www.

647

:

FEMA.

648

:

gov through educational opportunities

and, uh, and, and, and, um, instructional

649

:

opportunities, um, and even Thanksgiving

meals and like, um, uh, book bag drives

650

:

and all this sort of stuff to show that

we care about the family and support

651

:

that family because, you know, that

family is the most important part when

652

:

these, you know, men and women come

back out, um, and that family is going

653

:

to be the one that supports them.

654

:

Um, and, and that's, that's crucially

important that we save that family.

655

:

Also, it shows.

656

:

One of the things that people

should understand is, uh, I call

657

:

it trickle down corrections.

658

:

Those, um, those that have, uh,

those children of incarcerated

659

:

individuals are much more likely to

have failures in education, truancy

660

:

in education, sociopathic behavior,

and higher rates of incarceration.

661

:

So if we can actually help support the

family and stem that, that next trend

662

:

in that generation, then we've done a

lot for a lot of generations thereafter.

663

:

Chris P. Reed: You said something

earlier that's, that's resonated

664

:

with me and you kind of reinforced it

throughout the different things that

665

:

you're talking about, programs and such.

666

:

Um, how difficult is it?

667

:

And this is me as a, as a citizen, and

I'm sure plenty of our audience, how

668

:

difficult is it for you as a servant

to not accept the uncomplicated?

669

:

No.

670

:

So let me, let me frame that up for you.

671

:

You went in and you said, I presented it.

672

:

And he said, no, and then you

said something that threw me

673

:

off, which is I represented it.

674

:

And he said, no, and I represent it.

675

:

So because the no was just a simple no.

676

:

And it wasn't no, because of this

reason, that reason, this reason,

677

:

that you were like, okay, I'm not just

going to give up and go away quietly.

678

:

First of all, I salute you

for that destitutiveness, but

679

:

also how difficult is that?

680

:

And how common is that?

681

:

So, oh, you got

682

:

Sheriff Peter Koutoujian:

some, you got some noise there.

683

:

Tony, you're going to play.

684

:

Tony Tidbit: I was giving

you a round of applause, but

685

:

Sheriff Peter Koutoujian: we'll

686

:

Tony Tidbit: go ahead

687

:

Sheriff Peter Koutoujian:

and do your thing,

688

:

Tony Tidbit: buddy.

689

:

Sheriff Peter Koutoujian: Listen, I just,

690

:

if people don't advocate for others,

then who's going to advocate for them?

691

:

Right?

692

:

I've just seen too many people that are.

693

:

That are supposed to be leading on an

issue and then they're told no and they

694

:

just quietly go away And there's nothing

more offensive to me than that If it's

695

:

a good idea, then you've got to go fight

for it and you don't have to be a jerk

696

:

about it You don't have to be antagonistic

or get into fights with people but at

697

:

least go back a few more times and and

I was able to show him that You know,

698

:

it was important It would serve our

communities, including his community.

699

:

Um, and that, and there was

not going to be a money, you

700

:

know, a money component to this.

701

:

And if he was worried like, oh,

we're going to have to find this

702

:

and going to cost this much more in

our system, not to worry about that.

703

:

And I knew he was a good man, right?

704

:

I just needed to kind of get through

him a couple of times and, and, I've

705

:

seen many, um, um, elected people

that will go like in front of the

706

:

cameras to go advocate for something.

707

:

But once the cameras light shut

off, they just kind of go home.

708

:

They don't, they don't, you

know, they, they drop the issue.

709

:

There's nothing more offensive to

me in policy leadership than, you

710

:

know, uh, lifting something up when

the camera's around and they're just

711

:

dropping it when they disappear.

712

:

Many of my things that I got done took

me, you know, 10, 11, 12 years to do in

713

:

the legislature, which is a long, brutal

period of time to stay on something.

714

:

But I'm really proud that I stayed on

them because I was getting frustrated.

715

:

Like, it makes common sense.

716

:

Let's just do it.

717

:

Why, why is this not getting done?

718

:

So I, I just think it's a, people have to

be strong and passionate and, and caring.

719

:

Don't be afraid.

720

:

Listen, We shouldn't be afraid

of being told no, right?

721

:

Right.

722

:

Opportunity to re engage.

723

:

Tony Tidbit: Right, right.

724

:

You know, my friend, you, let's, let's,

because you've done a lot of great things.

725

:

in Middlesex County in Massachusetts.

726

:

Um, and maybe a lot of

people are not aware of.

727

:

So let's talk, let's dive into some of the

programs and stuff that you came up with

728

:

that helped change the lives of not only

the, the incarcerated, but their families.

729

:

Um, even the people that, you know,

actually are in the system, um,

730

:

that, you know, actually hold them

accountable, put them behind bars.

731

:

You've done a lot of stuff.

732

:

So you've come up with.

733

:

the family support service unit, right?

734

:

Talk a little bit about that.

735

:

Um, and then I want to dive into the,

the, the Frederick Douglass project

736

:

that you guys

737

:

put together.

738

:

I think it's fascinating.

739

:

I think it's awesome, but it

speaks to the whole of everything

740

:

that you're bringing together.

741

:

Sheriff Peter Koutoujian: Yeah.

742

:

So, um, as I said, part of the reason I

like, I was really pleased to be invited

743

:

on your podcast is because I think it's

important that people know what goes

744

:

on behind the bars, so to speak, right?

745

:

On the other side of the wall,

on the other side of the wall,

746

:

people don't really know.

747

:

They don't understand.

748

:

Um, and so the family support services,

again, what we did was created a,

749

:

an entity where we were able to

connect with the loved ones, usually

750

:

their wives, girlfriends, partners,

whomever, and their children, right?

751

:

Because mostly we've got men up here.

752

:

Um, and, and, and these are the

people that love these guys, right?

753

:

So all the people that they were

running, ripping and running with

754

:

on the outside, you know, they're

not visiting him up in my jail.

755

:

They're not throwing any

money in their canteen.

756

:

They're not throwing any

money in their phone fund.

757

:

Right.

758

:

You know, they'll be welcoming them

like open arms when they get back

759

:

on the outside, cause they want

to rip and run with them again.

760

:

Right.

761

:

Yeah.

762

:

I mean, Hey, um, you

know, um, my boy, right.

763

:

But, but so all the people that are

actually visiting are generally, you know,

764

:

not all of these, but you know, they're

generally grandmothers, mothers, sisters.

765

:

Girlfriends, you know, um, wives, it's all

the women that care about these people.

766

:

Um, and they're the ones that are

struggling, you know, emotionally,

767

:

socioeconomically, right.

768

:

And all these ways that.

769

:

No one remembers that they're stuck on

the outside raising a family while their

770

:

partner is on the inside You know, I just

realized like, you know, you know how I

771

:

realized this actually as i'm thinking

about this I would have people call me up

772

:

say hey sheriff or they know me, right?

773

:

So they were someone of a I don't want

to say that i'm on a higher status

774

:

But some of the status that would

know a high level elected official

775

:

or an elected official, right?

776

:

And they so they'd call me because they

knew You that their kid was in trouble

777

:

in my jail, or they had someone that

they knew whose kid was in my jail.

778

:

Um, so it was only people that knew

me or knew someone that knew me.

779

:

So meaning, you know, I get

these calls all year long.

780

:

Now, I love these calls because

I get to engage with the family,

781

:

tell them what's going on.

782

:

You know, it's okay.

783

:

Things are good.

784

:

They're being treated well.

785

:

Find out if they had any needs, like,

You know, they needed glasses or hearing

786

:

aids or they were struggling with mental

health issues that we should know about.

787

:

That was always really good to know.

788

:

But I realized that there were

thousands of other people that didn't

789

:

know me or knew someone that knew

me to be able to get a call from me.

790

:

So I said, we should.

791

:

That's not right.

792

:

That's not equitable.

793

:

So.

794

:

That's when we created

this, this position.

795

:

And it's, we've had thousands of

calls with families, dozens of

796

:

training opportunities with families.

797

:

We've done family reconciliation programs

with a community college in the area

798

:

to help kind of to fix the frayed

relationships in many ways, right?

799

:

We can find out if the, if

the, if the loved one is like.

800

:

Having trouble emotionally because

the family member will tell us.

801

:

So, you know, one of the things you

worry about in a carceral facility

802

:

is suicide or self harm, right?

803

:

Some of you always worry about.

804

:

Now, we've got someone to say,

I'm speaking with my husband.

805

:

I'm speaking with my

boyfriend, whatever it is.

806

:

He seems to be in a bad place

or, you know, his mom died or his

807

:

dad died or someone like that.

808

:

You know, please just make sure you watch.

809

:

So we get to care for

them better that way, too.

810

:

It's a remarkable opportunity.

811

:

Now we're also having family

contact visits with minor children

812

:

in a room that we created to be

like, very children friendly.

813

:

We had an artist, you know, paint,

you know, characters on the walls.

814

:

It's really a beautiful thing

when you see a family in there.

815

:

And the whole thing about that

unit, by the way, is not that you

816

:

get to visit your, your partner

and the kids are running around

817

:

watching TV or playing with crayons.

818

:

The fact is, is if we see that we go

and we tap on the shoulder, hey, No, no,

819

:

the idea is to engage with the Children.

820

:

It's not for the contact visit with

your partner and the kids are there.

821

:

This is about the Children.

822

:

We've also had many the Department

of Children's Services visits

823

:

court visits overseen in here too.

824

:

So that's really one of the most

rewarding, like really one of

825

:

the most rewarding things that

I found that we do up here.

826

:

Chris P. Reed: Let me let me.

827

:

Educate you on the nature of criminal

justice because you obviously missed

828

:

something in your law degrees and your

times on the job when people commit

829

:

crimes, they are dehumanized and

the people that are affected by the

830

:

mistake that that person may deserve

to suffer as much as that person does.

831

:

And for whatever reason, you've decided.

832

:

That you understand the shrapnel that

occurs when somebody makes a mistake and

833

:

you shouldn't have to throw the baby out

with the bathwater, so to speak, and have

834

:

created programs that allow for these

people to re humanize and understand and

835

:

actually rehabilitate due to the fact

that everybody hasn't given up on them

836

:

and they don't have to live this out.

837

:

In a perpetual punishment, but they'll

find the best, most motivated, um, mature

838

:

way of being encouraged to come out

on the other side of this because they

839

:

realize people still give a damn about me.

840

:

People are still going to show up.

841

:

And these are the people that I'm

going one day at a time for to be

842

:

a good, a good civil, uh, inmate.

843

:

You're going, you're creating behavioral

dynamics, you're creating a sense

844

:

of pride and, and, and, and you're

not institutionalizing these folks.

845

:

Um, why hasn't somebody stopped you, sir?

846

:

Sheriff Peter Koutoujian: Cause

847

:

Chris P. Reed: that's

not what this thing was

848

:

Sheriff Peter Koutoujian: designed

849

:

Chris P. Reed: to

850

:

Sheriff Peter Koutoujian: do.

851

:

You said, Chris is so true though.

852

:

Right.

853

:

You know, if you treat people like human

beings, they'll behave like human beings.

854

:

And, um, and this is the other

thing that's really interesting

855

:

about corrections is We've prepared

the incarcerated individual.

856

:

For re entry into the

community and family.

857

:

We give them anger management, family

dynamics, educational opportunities,

858

:

but we never prepare the family For the

entrance of the incarcerated individual

859

:

who by the way has been locked up for

a period of time Is probably frustrated

860

:

and anxious and trying to get back out

in the world and scared and not prepared

861

:

as fully as anyone wants for re entry

And so we we prepare that person But we

862

:

don't prepare the family to say, hey,

this is what they're going to be like.

863

:

This is how it's going to be.

864

:

This is how to help them,

uh, almost creating a support

865

:

service volunteer on the outside.

866

:

And by the way, the other thing I think is

really good about this program is that it

867

:

reminds the people that are incarcerated,

like, look at you, man, you're in

868

:

jail because you, you did crimes.

869

:

But the damn sheriff's office is helping

you with your family right now, right?

870

:

So I just think that kind of makes them

mindful of what they've done how it's

871

:

impacted their loved ones And who we

are as an organization that wants to

872

:

support them In a deeper way than just

giving them programs on the inside,

873

:

Tony Tidbit: right?

874

:

And then and that's from the family

dynamic, but then you also Help the

875

:

inmates Prepare for reentry and and that's

your Frederick Frederick project, right?

876

:

And which I was enamored by.

877

:

I read the article.

878

:

I'm going to read an excerpt out of the

Boston Globe about this, but I thought

879

:

that, you know, this, this 316, You

know, um, uh, angle that you're taking

880

:

from the inmate, the family, and then

also the community as well, getting them

881

:

prepared for the inmate to come back.

882

:

Right.

883

:

But I love what you, what you stated here.

884

:

Right.

885

:

And I'm going to, this is a quote

out of the, uh, uh, Boston Globe.

886

:

This goes back to December of 2023.

887

:

And this is what you said.

888

:

Frederick Douglas was the most

photographic man of his era.

889

:

He had his photo taken over 160 times.

890

:

He was the Because he felt it was

important for people to see a free

891

:

black man and to see his success.

892

:

All right, and that's some of the

things that you told this group behind

893

:

the inspiration of this project.

894

:

And then you said, these

people are not monsters.

895

:

They're not mugshots you saw on the news.

896

:

They're human beings who make

mistakes and are paying a steep price.

897

:

But who are almost certainly coming

home and we want them to succeed.

898

:

Okay.

899

:

So, buddy, I mean, to

Chris's point, I don't know.

900

:

No, and that that ain't

in criminal justice.

901

:

1 on 1 from a prosecuting standpoint

is lock the key up and go away.

902

:

And then if they're breathing,

when it's time for them to come

903

:

out, then we'll do something.

904

:

So speak to this program that you're

doing how you're having the inmates.

905

:

Get together, they're communicating

with people from the outside, talk,

906

:

tell our audience about it and the

effect that it's having with the

907

:

inmate, the family, and the community.

908

:

BEP Narrator: If you like what you hear

and want to join us on this journey

909

:

of making uncomfortable conversations

comfortable, please subscribe to a

910

:

Black Executive Perspective podcast

on YouTube, Apple Podcasts, Spotify,

911

:

or wherever you get your podcasts.

912

:

Hit subscribe now to stay connected

for more episodes that challenge,

913

:

inspire, and lead the change.

914

:

Sheriff Peter Koutoujian: So thank you

very much for bringing that program up.

915

:

I'm really proud of it.

916

:

And by the way, the thing about Frederick

Douglass, when he was photographed

917

:

so many times, People should not

misunderstand the fact this was not

918

:

ego that made him do this, right?

919

:

As I said, he did it because he

wanted people to see an image

920

:

of a free black man, right?

921

:

And it wasn't easy to do.

922

:

Today, you go in front of a

camera, you take a picture.

923

:

Back then, there's a reason

people didn't smile in those

924

:

photos because those exposures

sometimes took 15 and 20 minutes.

925

:

So you had to sit still

for 15 to 20 minutes.

926

:

Tony and Chris, you guys got

beautiful smiles, but I don't

927

:

think you can hold that thing for

15 straight minutes, man, right?

928

:

So exactly so that's why like he had this

stern face, but it's kind of interesting

929

:

So it was not it was a labor of love that

he did these photos He wanted people to

930

:

see who he was and that's why we want

us people on the inside to see Who these

931

:

people are now, something that I've always

said since I became sheriff is that a

932

:

jail is not just a fortress on a hill.

933

:

It's part of a community.

934

:

And if you don't, if you don't treat it

as part of the community and have the

935

:

community's involvement and understanding

of its mission, then it will fail.

936

:

Right?

937

:

So this is a great way to do this.

938

:

Now, I take tours, you know, we bring

in legislators and people as much as I

939

:

can, because I want them to see a well

run, um, Correctional facility, you

940

:

know, you see so many on on on the TV.

941

:

Those are not well run facilities.

942

:

Right?

943

:

I mean, you know, the camera crews

would come up to my place and they'd

944

:

like, just go home and say, if there's

nothing to see here, there's nothing

945

:

interesting going on here, which

is the beauty of good corrections.

946

:

Right?

947

:

Um, and so, so, so if

so, this is a way that.

948

:

It started with Professor Mark Howard from

Georgetown, and he had this idea about

949

:

bringing people from the public inside

a carceral facility in a systematic way.

950

:

And so what we do is we have about

15 or so people from the outside

951

:

community is the way we call it.

952

:

And they'll come to our facility,

we'll give them a quick tour

953

:

of our facility, some of the

programs that we've spoken about.

954

:

Then we'll bring them down into

a larger area where they'll

955

:

connect with 10, maybe 15 people.

956

:

Inside participants, we sit around in

a large circle, usually facilitated

957

:

by Mark Howard or someone else.

958

:

We start to do some icebreaker.

959

:

We do in quick introductions, some

icebreaker questions, just to start a

960

:

little bit of discussion, the purpose

of this, and then break into we break

961

:

them into small groups, 4 or 5 or

6, maybe, and we serve some food.

962

:

We actually allow them to

break bread with each other.

963

:

Right?

964

:

And then they have these very intimate

conversations about what life is like

965

:

on the inside, Um, what, what, you know,

what troubles people on the outside,

966

:

the inside, how they ended up there,

what are they looking forward to do?

967

:

Tell me about their families.

968

:

Right?

969

:

And then you come back into the larger

group, and now you share those experiences

970

:

in the larger group, and then the

outside participants gather and go home.

971

:

The inside participants

go back to their units.

972

:

This is a remarkable, um, Program and

it has brought so much humanity to what

973

:

we do So for the people on the outside,

it gives them an understanding that

974

:

the people on the inside are really

not that much different They had a

975

:

really bad problem with drugs Or a

really significant mental health issue,

976

:

or it was a really bad day, right?

977

:

Um, or, or it was just, or sometimes

honestly, there's a people with a

978

:

history of criminal behaviors too, right?

979

:

Um, and for the people on the inside,

it's really important because they get

980

:

to understand that the public, the people

on the outside actually care about them.

981

:

Like, I didn't realize the

impact it had on them as much

982

:

until we started the program.

983

:

They say, Oh, someone cares about me.

984

:

I feel like I matter again.

985

:

And this brought an understanding like

we had people come to our facility

986

:

that had looks on their faces like,

like they smelled something bad.

987

:

Like they were, they were immediately knew

that they were going to be under pressed.

988

:

They were going to be angry

at the way that Incarcerated

989

:

people were being treated or

the programming or the facility.

990

:

They had this look on their face Like they

were not they were they were preparing

991

:

to be mad And maybe that's why they want

to come in so they could just see how

992

:

mad they should be about what's going on

inside And then as they left coming out

993

:

with big smiles on their faces writing

an email to me the very next day And then

994

:

we've done work with these some of these

organizations to better the lives of the

995

:

people inside to a miraculous program

that was brought to us by Mark Howard,

996

:

making a difference in a significant way.

997

:

Um, and it's really good for

community, but it's good for

998

:

that inside community as well

999

:

Chris P. Reed: with such a significant

philosophical and psychological shift.

:

00:48:29,500 --> 00:48:34,610

As we talked about, people have Uh,

thoughts about the system and, and how

:

00:48:34,610 --> 00:48:37,820

people are when they're in there and

who's in there, and things of that nature.

:

00:48:38,080 --> 00:48:42,360

How have you been able to retract, to

attract recruits or, or build up that

:

00:48:42,360 --> 00:48:46,890

staff of individuals, particularly people

of color, women, you know, people that

:

00:48:46,890 --> 00:48:49,110

may be vulnerable to some of these crimes.

:

00:48:49,230 --> 00:48:53,700

How have you gotten them to participate

and being able to keep up that momentum?

:

00:48:53,760 --> 00:48:56,070

Sheriff Peter Koutoujian:

Yeah, so, um, so as far as the

:

00:48:56,070 --> 00:48:57,390

participation and the engagement.

:

00:48:58,300 --> 00:48:59,950

I mean, the first unit was different.

:

00:49:00,020 --> 00:49:02,920

I think people were not sure what to

expect, but it used to be a culture

:

00:49:03,470 --> 00:49:06,060

that exists in many other carceral

facilities of people just walking

:

00:49:06,060 --> 00:49:10,720

up and down a tier or walking around

a pod, you know, just making sure,

:

00:49:11,080 --> 00:49:12,249

you know, there's no fighting.

:

00:49:12,750 --> 00:49:14,459

There's no open drug use.

:

00:49:14,500 --> 00:49:16,229

There's no self harm, right?

:

00:49:16,229 --> 00:49:20,620

You know, the basic stuff of what what

you'd see in many carceral facilities

:

00:49:20,620 --> 00:49:22,220

and now because the specialty units.

:

00:49:22,620 --> 00:49:25,930

It took the first one with the veterans

that was accepted and then it went into

:

00:49:25,930 --> 00:49:29,500

the medication assisted treatment Which

was a big change for them and then it

:

00:49:29,500 --> 00:49:33,630

went into the young adult offenders, which

was a huger change then we brought in

:

00:49:34,249 --> 00:49:39,169

pre release women Um, it was another huge

change What we found was that with each

:

00:49:39,190 --> 00:49:42,149

new program we brought in because people

started seeing oh, there's something

:

00:49:42,149 --> 00:49:47,770

to there's something that's Something

more rewarding, maybe more interesting

:

00:49:47,810 --> 00:49:50,440

about doing this work more engaging.

:

00:49:50,440 --> 00:49:54,400

And so they started actually

signing up for more and more of

:

00:49:54,410 --> 00:49:55,970

the training to do the newer units.

:

00:49:56,550 --> 00:50:01,690

And as far as the representation,

yeah, you want the, the, the.

:

00:50:02,115 --> 00:50:05,585

The community, the inside

community in the outside community

:

00:50:05,595 --> 00:50:08,945

and our staff to be basically

representative of each other, right?

:

00:50:08,945 --> 00:50:13,905

You can't have, you know, 1 race inside

and 1 race outside or vice versa.

:

00:50:13,905 --> 00:50:14,634

You got to have it.

:

00:50:14,634 --> 00:50:15,474

So it's reflective.

:

00:50:15,475 --> 00:50:19,234

So, you know, in our most current

basic training academy, we had.

:

00:50:19,690 --> 00:50:25,840

Um, 43 percent were white, 22 percent

were black, 22 percent were hispanic,

:

00:50:26,070 --> 00:50:29,530

and that basically mimics what's going

on in our communities at the same time.

:

00:50:29,829 --> 00:50:34,629

Uh, and by the way, it's really important

that you have women inside, um, in these,

:

00:50:34,690 --> 00:50:39,800

in these roles too, because they're, you

know, they're, they're, they're in many

:

00:50:39,800 --> 00:50:44,570

ways better or at least as good as some of

the best men in managing the population.

:

00:50:44,740 --> 00:50:47,410

Not physically necessarily,

but using their brains.

:

00:50:47,610 --> 00:50:51,620

Using communication skills, um,

and they're an important part

:

00:50:51,780 --> 00:50:54,020

of making a unit successful.

:

00:50:54,030 --> 00:50:57,760

When I started, the women were

really in, um, the mail room.

:

00:50:57,960 --> 00:50:59,740

They were watching the monitors.

:

00:51:00,380 --> 00:51:02,089

They were on the outside stuff.

:

00:51:02,460 --> 00:51:05,180

And, um, and because of that,

too, by the way, they couldn't

:

00:51:05,180 --> 00:51:09,035

get, Promotions to sergeants or

lieutenants because they weren't

:

00:51:09,035 --> 00:51:10,555

experienced in the operational side.

:

00:51:10,555 --> 00:51:14,135

So when you're looking for operational

sergeant, they had no experience in that.

:

00:51:14,135 --> 00:51:16,475

And you couldn't do anything to judge

and say, I think they'd be good in here

:

00:51:16,515 --> 00:51:17,625

because it would be brand new step.

:

00:51:18,005 --> 00:51:20,385

So now we've got more women stepping up.

:

00:51:20,455 --> 00:51:23,294

Our latest classes have been

more diverse than ever before.

:

00:51:23,584 --> 00:51:26,375

You know, what I really love is we've got

more people from outside of the country.

:

00:51:26,600 --> 00:51:31,270

The language is being spoken from Africa

and South America and Central America are,

:

00:51:31,350 --> 00:51:33,570

are, that's stunningly varied right now.

:

00:51:33,860 --> 00:51:37,630

So, you know, it's, it's the, the variance

and now they're getting a little bit older

:

00:51:37,630 --> 00:51:41,440

too, which brings in a lot of maturation

and a lot of better behavior as well.

:

00:51:42,850 --> 00:51:44,490

Tony Tidbit: Buddy, I

got to give it to you.

:

00:51:44,709 --> 00:51:47,489

Um, you've put together

something that's special.

:

00:51:48,069 --> 00:51:51,709

I would imagine, um, that

you're touching and affecting.

:

00:51:52,205 --> 00:51:56,075

Positively, a lot of lives

on all sides of the triangle.

:

00:51:56,575 --> 00:52:01,145

Um, and so we're so happy that you came

on to share because more people need

:

00:52:01,145 --> 00:52:02,734

to know this back to Chris's point.

:

00:52:03,075 --> 00:52:06,405

You know, at the end of the day,

words paint pictures, um, and when

:

00:52:06,405 --> 00:52:09,815

you think of criminal justice and

you think of a sheriff, or you think

:

00:52:09,815 --> 00:52:14,365

of, you know, prosecutors and, or,

you know, convicts, you think of

:

00:52:14,365 --> 00:52:15,934

all the negative things, right?

:

00:52:15,935 --> 00:52:20,665

And let's be fair, you know, rightfully

so in some areas, but to be honest,

:

00:52:20,725 --> 00:52:25,005

right, for you to have vision, and that's

where we kick this episode off, you,

:

00:52:25,035 --> 00:52:30,885

for you to be a visionary, To, you know,

play chess, not checkers and recognize

:

00:52:30,885 --> 00:52:34,984

by doing this, because I would imagine

there's a backlash as well while we spend

:

00:52:34,984 --> 00:52:38,474

the money on these people, you know,

blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, but you're

:

00:52:38,475 --> 00:52:43,834

seeing it as an opportunity to not only

affect the, the inmate, but affect the

:

00:52:43,834 --> 00:52:48,415

community, because these people are going

to come home and then more importantly,

:

00:52:48,485 --> 00:52:54,310

yeah, I think you said it earlier, the,

the return rate, So now they're going to

:

00:52:54,340 --> 00:52:56,580

become, you know, productive citizens.

:

00:52:56,750 --> 00:53:01,570

And even when I read the article about

the, um, Frederick Douglass project

:

00:53:01,850 --> 00:53:05,740

and the, um, the group of individuals

that you talked about, how the

:

00:53:05,740 --> 00:53:08,370

community people from the community

and the inmates all sat together.

:

00:53:08,600 --> 00:53:11,549

I believe 1 of the people from

the community said, hey, I'm

:

00:53:11,549 --> 00:53:13,110

open to giving this guy a job.

:

00:53:13,389 --> 00:53:13,930

Sheriff Peter Koutoujian: Yeah, right.

:

00:53:13,930 --> 00:53:15,299

Tony Tidbit: Yeah, right.

:

00:53:15,299 --> 00:53:19,240

Because they were able to break

bread and build those relationships.

:

00:53:19,330 --> 00:53:21,770

So, final thoughts, my friend,

what do you want to leave with the

:

00:53:21,780 --> 00:53:25,600

audience in terms of what you're

doing and what you want them to know?

:

00:53:25,600 --> 00:53:27,340

And more importantly,

what action they can take?

:

00:53:27,730 --> 00:53:29,340

Sheriff Peter Koutoujian:

So, um, two things.

:

00:53:29,340 --> 00:53:33,040

One, I want them to remember the humanity

of the people about whom we speak.

:

00:53:33,420 --> 00:53:35,435

As we said, Some of them are trouble.

:

00:53:35,445 --> 00:53:39,525

Some of this, some, some of them are,

you know, not great people, right?

:

00:53:39,525 --> 00:53:42,745

We have to acknowledge that there's

a lot of great people there, right?

:

00:53:42,745 --> 00:53:45,485

I mean, I speak about them in this

way because I should speak about them

:

00:53:45,485 --> 00:53:48,185

in the way that I do, but there's

a lot of tough people out there,

:

00:53:48,475 --> 00:53:50,295

um, that really struggle, right?

:

00:53:50,634 --> 00:53:52,734

But they deserve the opportunity

to be treated with dignity.

:

00:53:52,735 --> 00:53:54,495

I mean, it's not my job to punish them.

:

00:53:54,715 --> 00:53:57,185

I'm just supposed to hold

them and hopefully prepare

:

00:53:57,185 --> 00:53:58,055

them to be better, right?

:

00:53:58,115 --> 00:53:59,095

And that's my job.

:

00:53:59,435 --> 00:54:02,605

And then secondly, the corrections,

uh, professionals, right?

:

00:54:02,840 --> 00:54:08,570

You know, you got corrections officers

and case managers and nurses, uh,

:

00:54:08,610 --> 00:54:12,510

and mental health professionals that

care for these people on the inside.

:

00:54:12,880 --> 00:54:14,540

And that's a really tough job, right?

:

00:54:14,800 --> 00:54:17,730

Um, so one thing I always say, I always

call the corrections professionals

:

00:54:17,750 --> 00:54:19,370

the silent guardians of public safety.

:

00:54:19,370 --> 00:54:21,119

No one really knows who

they are, what they do.

:

00:54:21,385 --> 00:54:23,155

They know how to say thank

you to a police officer.

:

00:54:23,155 --> 00:54:25,585

Maybe if they want to or a

firefighter or things like that

:

00:54:25,585 --> 00:54:26,955

But they don't know what a co does.

:

00:54:27,125 --> 00:54:30,635

They don't know who they are So if

people get to either if they know a

:

00:54:30,635 --> 00:54:34,604

corrections officer Or a professional

or they meet one just to say thank you

:

00:54:34,604 --> 00:54:37,840

for their service because I think it's

a really tough job But it's a really

:

00:54:37,840 --> 00:54:39,470

noble profession at the same time,

:

00:54:39,570 --> 00:54:40,010

Chris P. Reed: man.

:

00:54:40,020 --> 00:54:43,090

Well, that's, you know,

it's been a lot today.

:

00:54:43,090 --> 00:54:46,569

I think it's been very beneficial

for myself personally, definitely

:

00:54:46,580 --> 00:54:48,530

my audience or our audience.

:

00:54:48,819 --> 00:54:51,220

1 of the things that I want

to congratulate and thank

:

00:54:51,220 --> 00:54:52,670

you for joining us today.

:

00:54:52,700 --> 00:54:56,540

Thank you for imparting that wisdom

and thank you for as a civil servant.

:

00:54:56,835 --> 00:54:59,605

Understanding that these

people are your people.

:

00:55:00,165 --> 00:55:04,305

And so, you know, you really do

embody that and exemplify that.

:

00:55:04,555 --> 00:55:08,754

And that's a great way to do

your job and make this a better

:

00:55:08,754 --> 00:55:11,004

situation for everyone going forward.

:

00:55:11,035 --> 00:55:14,324

I'm sure you'll never know the families

that you've impacted positively.

:

00:55:14,324 --> 00:55:17,915

It's just numerous at this point in time,

but that you're doing it for the right

:

00:55:17,925 --> 00:55:19,405

reasons, not for the numbers, right?

:

00:55:19,415 --> 00:55:20,375

It's not for a spreadsheet.

:

00:55:20,455 --> 00:55:20,825

That's right.

:

00:55:20,825 --> 00:55:22,105

And, uh, I appreciate that.

:

00:55:22,105 --> 00:55:25,844

And I want to thank you, uh, sheriff

Peter Koutoujian for coming on and

:

00:55:25,844 --> 00:55:26,865

sharing that with our audience.

:

00:55:27,100 --> 00:55:27,890

Sheriff Peter Koutoujian:

Thank you, Chris.

:

00:55:28,010 --> 00:55:28,590

Thank you, Tony.

:

00:55:29,510 --> 00:55:30,170

Tony Tidbit: He killed it.

:

00:55:30,180 --> 00:55:30,990

You're awesome.

:

00:55:31,190 --> 00:55:35,740

And I, you know what the other

lesson don't take no for an answer.

:

00:55:37,770 --> 00:55:40,759

keep moving forward, believe

in it, make it happen.

:

00:55:40,959 --> 00:55:43,829

So I want you to stay right

there because you're going to

:

00:55:43,829 --> 00:55:45,310

help us with our call to action.

:

00:55:45,489 --> 00:55:48,840

I think it's now time

for what Tony's tidbit.

:

00:55:48,870 --> 00:55:51,820

So now it's time for Tony's

tidbit and the tidbit today.

:

00:55:52,915 --> 00:55:56,045

Reform goes beyond changing systems.

:

00:55:56,385 --> 00:56:01,875

It's about transforming lives by

shifting our perspective on justice.

:

00:56:02,245 --> 00:56:07,195

We begin the real work of correction,

empowering individual through

:

00:56:07,245 --> 00:56:13,644

understanding and redefining

corrections to foster community growth.

:

00:56:14,274 --> 00:56:18,455

And you heard that today from our

brother, Sheriff Peter Koutoujian.

:

00:56:18,605 --> 00:56:21,325

I mean, look, this brother,

man, I love you a lot.

:

00:56:21,765 --> 00:56:25,155

And if anything, a black executive

perspective podcast can do

:

00:56:25,155 --> 00:56:27,454

for you, you don't hesitate.

:

00:56:27,755 --> 00:56:28,415

Okay.

:

00:56:28,485 --> 00:56:31,015

You don't all you do is just let us know.

:

00:56:31,025 --> 00:56:35,884

We got your back because we need more

sheriffs like you in this system.

:

00:56:36,005 --> 00:56:38,415

I could imagine there's other

people doing stuff as well.

:

00:56:38,815 --> 00:56:40,005

But my point is.

:

00:56:40,540 --> 00:56:42,450

The hells are the things

that make a difference.

:

00:56:42,450 --> 00:56:45,900

And back to Chris's point,

you probably have no clue.

:

00:56:46,400 --> 00:56:49,609

Yes, you probably get calls and emails,

but you probably have no clue of the

:

00:56:49,610 --> 00:56:55,200

lives that you're affecting, not just

today, but those kids lives in the future.

:

00:56:55,850 --> 00:57:00,409

It's going to grow up in a more

fostered, more loving family because

:

00:57:00,409 --> 00:57:01,890

of the programs you put them in.

:

00:57:01,890 --> 00:57:04,350

So you stay right there, my

friend, because we're going

:

00:57:04,350 --> 00:57:05,350

to call you right back.

:

00:57:05,450 --> 00:57:08,310

Chris P. Reed: We want to make sure

that we take this time to remind you

:

00:57:08,310 --> 00:57:10,260

to tune in to the weekly segment.

:

00:57:10,625 --> 00:57:15,995

Need to know with DrNsenga Burton, a black

is yet to perspective podcast is where Dr.

:

00:57:15,995 --> 00:57:19,274

Burton dives into timely and

crucial topics that shape

:

00:57:19,274 --> 00:57:20,645

our community and the world.

:

00:57:20,645 --> 00:57:25,605

In fact, she's multi hyphenated

so deep, so broad, so talented

:

00:57:25,734 --> 00:57:26,915

and so full of energy.

:

00:57:27,065 --> 00:57:28,395

You have to tune into this.

:

00:57:28,455 --> 00:57:29,555

You don't want to miss it.

:

00:57:29,735 --> 00:57:31,405

She'll explore so many things that matter.

:

00:57:31,620 --> 00:57:33,080

And I guarantee you, you'll love it.

:

00:57:33,220 --> 00:57:34,040

Absolutely.

:

00:57:34,110 --> 00:57:35,990

Tony Tidbit: And listen,

she's, she kills it.

:

00:57:36,240 --> 00:57:40,450

But more importantly, I hope you

enjoyed today's episode, Beyond

:

00:57:40,450 --> 00:57:45,150

Bars, A New Vision for Corrections,

with Sheriff Peter Koutoujian.

:

00:57:45,170 --> 00:57:47,280

Chris P. Reed: We definitely want

to make sure we, as usual, we take

:

00:57:47,280 --> 00:57:52,500

this time to remind you of our

call to action, LESS, L E S S.

:

00:57:53,015 --> 00:57:59,155

The L stands for learn, educate yourself

as I have today on racial and cultural

:

00:57:59,155 --> 00:58:03,684

nuances and the ability to be visionary

in these areas and make sure that

:

00:58:03,685 --> 00:58:05,285

you impact your community positively.

:

00:58:05,555 --> 00:58:06,244

Absolutely.

:

00:58:06,244 --> 00:58:07,305

Tony Tidbit: Because our goal

:

00:58:07,505 --> 00:58:07,695

Chris P. Reed: is

:

00:58:07,734 --> 00:58:10,065

Tony Tidbit: to decrease

all forms of racism.

:

00:58:10,165 --> 00:58:12,925

So that's why this call to

action is very important.

:

00:58:13,135 --> 00:58:17,475

So after you learn, you have the

letter E since you now learned

:

00:58:17,475 --> 00:58:18,825

and become more enlightened.

:

00:58:19,045 --> 00:58:20,175

Now you should have more.

:

00:58:20,330 --> 00:58:25,540

Be more empathy, have more empathy

for your fellow colleague and friend.

:

00:58:25,540 --> 00:58:27,040

Going back to what Peter talked about.

:

00:58:27,390 --> 00:58:30,380

Understanding once you get

to meet individuals, now you

:

00:58:30,380 --> 00:58:31,840

can see their point of view.

:

00:58:33,130 --> 00:58:35,780

Sheriff Peter Koutoujian: And

S, S is to share your insights

:

00:58:35,780 --> 00:58:37,060

and to enlighten others.

:

00:58:37,640 --> 00:58:40,960

Uh, something that we've done today,

something that I find really interesting.

:

00:58:41,010 --> 00:58:42,490

I love learning about this stuff.

:

00:58:42,640 --> 00:58:43,660

I love being enlightened.

:

00:58:43,660 --> 00:58:46,650

So share your insights

to enlighten others.

:

00:58:46,950 --> 00:58:47,860

Tony Tidbit: Absolutely.

:

00:58:47,870 --> 00:58:49,860

And the final S is stop.

:

00:58:50,000 --> 00:58:54,589

We want to stop all forms of

discrimination as it comes up in our path.

:

00:58:54,820 --> 00:58:57,880

So if grandpa says something

that's inappropriate at the

:

00:58:57,890 --> 00:59:01,330

Thanksgiving table, you say,

grandpa, we don't believe in that.

:

00:59:01,595 --> 00:59:03,425

And you stop it right there.

:

00:59:03,655 --> 00:59:07,675

And if everyone, and this is something

that Chris and I, we know for a

:

00:59:07,675 --> 00:59:12,155

fact, this is the incorporating

less is in everyone's control.

:

00:59:12,475 --> 00:59:18,245

So if everyone incorporates less

L E S S we'll build a more fair.

:

00:59:18,670 --> 00:59:23,570

More understanding world, and we'll

be able to see the change that we want

:

00:59:23,570 --> 00:59:26,510

to see because less will become more.

:

00:59:26,920 --> 00:59:28,550

Sheriff Peter Koutoujian: And can

I say what I was going to say?

:

00:59:28,560 --> 00:59:29,680

Less is more, Tony.

:

00:59:29,699 --> 00:59:30,989

Less is more, right?

:

00:59:30,989 --> 00:59:32,710

Let's all do less to do more.

:

00:59:32,880 --> 00:59:37,119

Tony Tidbit: Buddy, that's why you want

a black executive perspective, right?

:

00:59:37,119 --> 00:59:39,010

Right, because you fall right within less.

:

00:59:40,570 --> 00:59:43,495

Chris P. Reed: You know, you

know, once again, Thank you, sir.

:

00:59:43,565 --> 00:59:45,775

We, we were, we were

blessed with your presence.

:

00:59:46,215 --> 00:59:50,944

We want to make sure that everyone in

earshot goes to the website, signs up for

:

00:59:50,944 --> 00:59:55,505

the newsletter, keep reaching out to us

to review, subscribe, listen to us, uh,

:

00:59:55,575 --> 00:59:57,675

wherever you get your podcasts, make sure.

:

00:59:57,845 --> 01:00:03,145

That you're giving us information that

we can take back and grow as a community.

:

01:00:04,215 --> 01:00:04,765

Tony Tidbit: Absolutely.

:

01:00:04,775 --> 01:00:08,564

And you can follow a black executive

perspective podcast on all our socials,

:

01:00:09,015 --> 01:00:15,494

X, TikTok, YouTube, LinkedIn, and

Facebook at a black exec for our fabulous

:

01:00:15,495 --> 01:00:19,845

guests, Sheriff Peter Koutoujian from

the Middlesex County, Massachusetts.

:

01:00:19,845 --> 01:00:20,805

We want to thank him.

:

01:00:21,060 --> 01:00:23,620

For the co host with the most Chris P.

:

01:00:23,680 --> 01:00:25,720

Reed, I'm Tony Tidbit.

:

01:00:25,950 --> 01:00:27,250

We talked about it.

:

01:00:27,340 --> 01:00:28,770

We learned about it.

:

01:00:28,860 --> 01:00:29,750

We love you.

:

01:00:29,830 --> 01:00:30,620

And guess what?

:

01:00:30,670 --> 01:00:31,060

We're out.

:

01:00:35,399 --> 01:00:37,970

BEP Narrator: A black

executive perspective.

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