Episode Title:
Episode Audio Link: https://podcast.ablackexec.com/episode/Beyond Bars: A New Vision for Corrections
Episode Video Link:
Join hosts Tony Tidbit and Chris P. Reed in this thought-provoking episode of the Black Executive Perspective podcast as they explore the innovative and compassionate approaches to corrections with Sheriff Peter J. Koutoujian of Middlesex County, Massachusetts. Sheriff Koutoujian shares his transformative vision, discussing various programs aimed at enhancing outcomes for incarcerated individuals, their families, and communities. From the creation of the Family Support Services Unit to the impactful Frederick Douglass Project, discover how one man's dedication is reshaping the justice system and fostering a more humane, rehabilitative approach to law enforcement. Don't miss this deep dive into the complexities of race, public service, and systemic change.
00:00: Introduction and Mission
00:24: Discussing Race and Corporate America
01:13: Introducing Sheriff Peter J. Koutoujian
02:58: Sheriff Koutoujian's Background and Family
06:09: Innovative Programs in Corrections
09:36: Challenges and Advocacy in Public Service
18:45: Health Disparities and Legislative Efforts
26:47: Innovations in Law Enforcement
27:57: Innovative Treatment Programs in Massachusetts
28:28: Young Adult Offender Program
30:01: Supporting Families of the Incarcerated
31:30: Advocating for Change
34:40: Family Support Services Unit
41:48: Frederick Douglass Project
48:25: Recruitment and Diversity in Corrections
53:19: Final Thoughts and Call to Action
Links and resources mentioned in this episode:
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Sheriff Peter Koutoujian: Our
families and communities have
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:given up on they've cast away.
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:They don't care about anymore.
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:Um, they violated their norms.
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:They violated their relationships, but
there's got to be someone that cares
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:about them to help them get back on track.
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:Right?
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:And I love being that guy.
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:I love having the staff that we have
that we have in this facility to help
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:people turn their lives around to make
them know that they are that they matter.
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:And that we want the best for them.
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:Tony Tidbit: We'll
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:discuss race and how it plays a factor.
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:How we didn't even talk about this topic.
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:Because we were afraid.
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:A Black
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:BEP Narrator: Executive Perspective.
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:Tony Tidbit: We are live
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:at the new BEP studio.
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:Bringing you another thought
provoking episode of a Black
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:Executive Perspective podcast.
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:A safe space where we discuss
all matters related to race.
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:Especially race in corporate America.
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:A I'm your host, Tony Tidbitt.
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:Chris P. Reed: And I'm
your co host, Chris P.
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:Reid.
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:Before we get too far into this, we want
to definitely remember to have you check
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:out our partners at CodeM Magazine.
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:CodeM Magazine, whose mission
is saving the Black family by
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:first saving the Black man.
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:That is CodeM Magazine 2Ms.
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:com.
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:CodeM Magazine.
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:Make sure you check them out.
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:Tony Tidbit: Yeah, make
sure you check them out.
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:And you're gonna check
out our guest today.
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:Cause we're joined by a visionary . In
the world of corrections, Sheriff Peter J.
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:Koutoujian of Middlesex
County, Massachusetts.
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:The sheriff has dedicated his career
to not just managing, but fundamentally
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:transforming how we think about
corrections and rehabilitation.
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:We're going to dive into his
innovative programs he has introduced
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:that aim to enhance outcomes
for incarcerated individuals.
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:Their families and communities.
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:And he's going to discuss how
these initiatives are shaping
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:a fairer justice system.
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:Chris P. Reed: Let me give you a little
bit of background though, before we get
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:too far into this Tony and audience,
uh, sheriff, Peter Koutoujian, the
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:30th sheriff of Middlesex County,
Massachusetts, where he, where he brings
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:a wealth of experience as a former.
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:Assistant District Attorney and a member
of the Massachusetts State Legislature.
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:Sheriff Koutoujian has created a way
to use his experience and position
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:within the criminal justice system
to transform the broader landscape
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:with the use of tailored treatment
programs that tackle the root causes
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:of the criminal justice involvement.
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:As the head of a comprehensive law
enforcement agency, Sheriff Koutoujian
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:manages more than 700 employees
and an annual budget of 77 million.
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:His efforts bridge public
health, safety, and service.
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:Sheriff Peter Koutoujian.
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:Welcome to a black executive
perspective podcast, sir.
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:Sheriff Peter Koutoujian:
Thank you so much, Chris.
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:Great to be with you.
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:And Tony really been excited
and looking forward to this day.
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:Yeah, we have as well,
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:Tony Tidbit: buddy.
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:So listen, you're doing
some real cool stuff.
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:So we're excited to hear from you,
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:Chris P. Reed: but go ahead, Chris.
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:It's a mouthful.
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:That's a mouthful.
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:But, uh, so you know what, let's
just start it off real nice and easy.
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:Uh, sheriff, could you, can you tell us
more about where you currently reside
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:and, and some of your family dynamics
and things of that nature, things
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:that are near and dear to your heart?
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:Sheriff Peter Koutoujian: Sure.
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:Um, you know, I'm a, I'm a kid
from Waltham, Massachusetts, and.
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:No matter where I go in the
country, I always say I'm just
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:a kid from Waltham, right?
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:I always feel like if you forget where
you came from, um, you get lost, right?
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:So I'm a kid from Waltham, modest
blue collar community, about 60,
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:000 right here in Middlesex County.
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:My, uh, my mother was a teacher,
my father was a city clerk for over
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:30 years, uh, running the municipal
elections and marriage licenses
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:and, um, uh, death certificates, all
the things that a city clerk does.
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:Uh, and a true public servant, someone,
someone that inspired me, um, you know,
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:I, I was lucky enough to get up to go
to, um, uh, an undergraduate school at
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:a state school here in Massachusetts,
Bridgewater State University.
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:My son goes there now, my mother,
who's 86 years old, actually takes
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:classes at the senior college
virtually now, which I love.
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:We got.
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:She loves to tell people that she
goes to college with her grandson.
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:I don't think he finds it as amusing
as she does, but it's really cute.
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:Um, and then I was able to go to New
England law to get my law degree.
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:And then I went to the Kennedy school
for a master's in public administration.
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:Middle six County is 1.
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:8 million people, uh, 54 independent
in individual cities and towns.
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:Um, and a little bit more about me as.
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:My father was Armenian American.
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:Um, uh, his, his parents, my grandparents
actually fled the Armenian genocide,
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:um, uh, fleeing, um, you know,
historic Armenia with really nothing
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:but the clothing on their back and
ending up in this great country and
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:raising a family here and becoming
the truest of patriots, my mother.
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:Um, was Irish American, uh,
second generation Irish American.
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:And so I really had this great
blend of two cultures of being,
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:uh, both Irish and Armenian.
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:Uh, and then, uh, and then
being American at the same time.
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:And having this blend was
really special in my life.
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:My mother embraced the Arminianism
of my father in a way that, um,
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:uh, many might not have expected,
but she pushed me more into my
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:Arminianism than my father really did.
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:Um, and it is, uh, it's been
a rich and beautiful, um,
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:you know, life that I've had.
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:And, uh, you know, I'm really lucky
to, uh, to be here right now, quite
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:honestly, in a job that I love so much.
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:E.
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:P.
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:Tony Tidbit: So listen, my
friend, thank you for that.
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:That is awesome.
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:Uh, you know, family is very important.
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:It shapes us who we are
positively or negatively.
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:So it's great to hear about.
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:You know, you came from a strong family.
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:They had a lot to do in terms
of your makeup in terms of where
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:you, what you're doing today.
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:And we definitely want to dive
in more to, to learn about them.
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:Cause I, obviously, you know, your, your
job is to oversee a department that is
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:really about protecting all citizens,
um, regardless of where they come from.
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:So we really want to dive into that.
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:But the question I have for you is,
you know, why did you want to come
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:on and talk about this topic on a
black executive perspective podcast?
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:Sheriff Peter Koutoujian:
Well, honestly, I'm.
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:I'm a lifelong public servant.
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:I've had a blessed professional
life in serving others, right?
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:I mean, honestly, that's
what public servants do.
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:And I love the profession, and I love
doing good work for the profession, and
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:I love bringing honor to the profession.
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:To the profession of
public service, right?
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:You know, it's just something
I feel really strong about it.
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:And I love the fact that we get
to watch out for those that might
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:be a little bit more vulnerable
that might need a little help.
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:I mean, that's what our government
and that's what our public service
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:is here for is to support people
to support our communities,
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:individuals, families and communities.
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:That's what I get to do.
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:And not many people understand what
role a sheriff can have in their lives.
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:Or, you know, if you have to be sent
to a place of incarceration, what it
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:can be like, you know, if you have
to be there, what it can be like.
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:And to allow people the opportunities
to turn their lives around while
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:they're serving the sentence
dictated by the court, right?
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:Um, and quite honestly, one of the
other things I say, you know, and I'll
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:probably close with this again is, you
know, whenever I go in public, Tony
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:or Chris and I speak to any group,
it can be people of color, it could
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:be white folks, it could be wealthy,
poor, it doesn't matter, right?
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:Anywhere in my And I always ask three
questions, how many people know someone
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:that has struggled with substance
use disorder, raise your hand.
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:It's always two thirds, three quarters,
100 percent of the room raises their hand.
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:How many people know someone that
struggled with mental illness?
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:Always the same thing up to 100
percent always three quarters to 100%.
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:And then I ask a final question,
which seems like you'd get
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:much lower hand raising.
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:Uh, how many people know
someone's been incarcerated?
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:And it's always the same number.
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:We all know someone, right?
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:And I got to get to the point
that it's not those people, man.
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:It's us.
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:It's our people.
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:It's our family and our friends and
our neighbors and our cousins and our
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:neighbors kids that we're speaking about.
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:And all of these people deserve
the opportunity to be treated with
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:dignity, respect, be given the tools
to help turn their lives around.
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:and be treated like
they're a person, right?
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:Um, so that when they come back
out, um, they're a much, they're a
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:more productive member of society.
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:And that's, I never thought
about becoming sheriff.
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:It's not something I sought, right?
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:Um, as a matter of fact, when the
first, I was, I was initially appointed
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:by Governor Deval Patrick here, a
great black executive, by the way,
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:um, um, great man, great governor.
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:And, uh, he actually
allowed me this opportunity.
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:But when people first reached out
and said, you should ask the governor
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:for this initial appointment.
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:I've now run three times.
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:And I was thinking, man, like,
why would I want to be sheriff?
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:Like, I don't really get that.
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:Like, that doesn't like,
why would I want to do that?
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:And then I started looking
into the job because I never
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:say never to anything, right?
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:I started looking into it.
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:And I, I said, man, what a
great opportunity to, to, to
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:serve the least of us, right?
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:This is the way I also
think about it, right?
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:It's, it's, it's, it's, uh, serving
the least of us, the people that,
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:um, our families and communities
have given up on, they've cast
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:away, they don't care about anymore.
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:Right.
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:Um, they violated their norms.
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:They violated their relationships, but
there's got to be someone that cares
204
:about them to help them get back on track.
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:Right.
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:And I love being that guy.
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:I love having the staff that we have,
that we have in this facility to help
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:people turn their lives around to make
them know that they are, that they matter
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:and that we want the best for them.
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:People actually say to me, Aren't you
afraid when you go out in public because
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:I go inside the facility pretty often
Aren't you afraid when you go into public
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:that someone's going to recognize you?
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:And my response is always like I hope
they do Because you know, they they know
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:that they they know that i'm there trying
to help them And I love being able to
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:see them in the community so they can
understand how they're doing and and
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:how what we've done is Helped or maybe
didn't help them enough and How maybe we
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:can do a better service while we're at
the, while people are at our facility.
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:Tony Tidbit: Right, right, buddy.
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:I mean, look, we, we, we at the
beginning of the show and you,
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:and you, you, my man, I mean, did he,
how many cups of coffee did you have?
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:I'm talking about somebody
that's very passionate.
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:I love it, man.
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:So, so listen, I'm glad you're on because
to your point, and then you said a few
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:things there, you said a lot of stuff.
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:That not only resonated with me,
I could see Chris's response.
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:It also resonated with our audience.
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:We all know somebody
that's been incarcerated.
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:Right.
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:We, we do sometimes treat them as
they, uh, um, have leopard disease.
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:All right.
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:They're leper, right?
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:And that's an old, you
know, um, um, um, disease.
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:People used to have them put back
in the olden days and put him in the
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:cave and nobody would go near him.
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:Right.
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:And we do treat him that way.
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:And then when they do come out,
they don't have a chance, right?
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:They're set up for failure.
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:Right.
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:And then I think the other thing
that you said, which is key, uh,
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:Um, also key is that most people
don't know what a sheriff does.
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:You know, I, you know, yo Sammy, yo Sammy.
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:I mean, most, I'm Marshall
Dillon, you know, most people
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:and I'm dating myself, right?
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:But most people don't.
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:So we're glad you're here.
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:We see you chomping at the bit.
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:All right.
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:The talk about it.
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:So you ready to talk about it?
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:Sheriff?
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:Sheriff Peter Koutoujian: I'm
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:Tony Tidbit: ready to go.
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:Let's go.
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:All right, buddy.
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:Let's talk about it.
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:Chris P. Reed: All right, so you
know what, let's, uh, go back because
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:you intrigued me as a historian.
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:You intrigued me with the
history, especially your mom and
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:I respect and appreciate that.
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:And trust me, your son will, will change
his tune as he gets a little years under
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:him and realize how special this is.
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:But go back to even more earlier
influences or memories of the
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:community because you said something
about just being a guy from Walham.
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:I think that's how you
pronounce it, right?
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:Waltham.
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:Waltham.
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:So, Waltham.
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:Okay, there we go.
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:See, see, I'm learning something today.
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:So, I'm expanding my horizons.
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:But, how did Waltham Contribute to shaping
the man that we have before us today.
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:Sheriff Peter Koutoujian: So, you know,
it was, it was a blue collar community.
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:It was a little bit of a tough community.
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:Um, quite honestly, uh, I grew
up in the tougher part of the
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:neighborhood and, uh, um, my junior
high school years were not easy ones.
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:I'll just say that, right.
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:I was the only kid with braces in my
neighborhood in my junior high school.
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:I was the only kid wearing
that horrible headgear.
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:You know, the old headgear around the face
because my mom made me wear it to school.
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:It was horrifying and basically
that was just asking for a
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:beating right there, right?
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:So those years were very difficult for me.
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:Um, and I think that for
any executive, right?
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:You always think about the dark times,
the difficult times that that, that
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:put you through the ringer that gave
you that metal that gave you that
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:grit that you went through those dark
times, you became stronger for that.
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:And I, and I think I did with
that, but what was also great about
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:wallfam was it was a very ethnic
community, but it also took good
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:care of people with disabilities.
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:So, um, you know, so since I was
a kid and even today, I still, uh,
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:volunteer with, um, for organizations
that support people with intellectual
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:and cognitive disabilities, right.
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:I still volunteer at, you know, at
shelters serving on Thanksgiving
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:and in other evenings of the year.
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:These are service lessons that
I just learned in my hometown.
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:The kind of nice thing, and I say this
because, you know, I would grow up with
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:people with disabilities, intellectual and
cognitive disabilities, and they weren't,
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:you know, they weren't those people.
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:They were my friends, right?
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:I kind of grew up with them, uh, and
have soft sought my heart for them.
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:And we, and I would still see them at
events going, you know, even today.
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:Uh, and that was a special relationship
that I realized I was really lucky
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:to have growing up in my community.
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:Chris P. Reed: Your mom is coming out
to be the toughest person in Waltham.
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:Yeah.
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:She's pretty strong.
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:Yeah.
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:You
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:Tony Tidbit: ain't lying.
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:I don't even want to deal with it.
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:Chris P. Reed: She was on the
right track, but you had mentioned
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:their professions earlier.
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:How did their professions
and her toughness and the
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:community all included it?
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:to create your perspecti public service.
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:Sheriff Peter Koutoujian: Yeah.
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:So my mom's.
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:Yeah, absolutely servants, right?
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:That's w I grew up, I didn't know that.
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:You know, um, and m a teacher.
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:Then she, then a period of time that you
as my sister and I grew u dad stayed in
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:municipal g town of Waltham became th
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:As one of the finest clerks and
civil servants in the in the state.
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:So this is how I grew up.
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:And I think they just gave me an
appreciation of the value of that.
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:Now, what I really appreciate is the
fact that I kind of entered public
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:service and now am I glad I did right?
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:You know, like, like, like, had
I gone someplace else, maybe
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:I would have come back, but.
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:For many people, what I try to instill
upon them is the value of public
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:service, the joy of public service.
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:You don't, you know, I don't get paid
as well as some of my counterparts
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:or my contemporaries or people
with the same number of degrees
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:or whatever it might be, right?
336
:I don't get, I don't get paid as much
as them, but man, if I love my jobs.
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:You know, like, like, once I
figured it out and part of the
338
:reason I actually started a unit
for young adult offenders, right?
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:Um, because I was that young adult
that I wasn't an offender, but I
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:had didn't have my act together.
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:You know, that age to
about 26 year old that.
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:the fuller maturation.
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:I was that guy.
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:I didn't have my act together.
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:And I, and I, and I really struggled,
um, in those years because I didn't
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:know the direction I wanted to go to.
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:And then one gentleman, Judge Jim Lawton
allowed me to attend my law school, right?
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:And I never looked back.
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:I never made that mistake
of messing around.
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:I worked, you know, my, my, my, my,
My mantra my whole life has been the
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:harder I work, the luckier I get right.
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:And I worked really hard in my life in
public services, a series of blessings
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:because I worked hard and then things
opened up and I started as a, you
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:know, private practitioner, but a
public defender, um, uh, for court
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:appointed work for, uh, indigent,
um, people charged with crimes.
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:And then I, then because I saw the value.
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:Of justice in their lives.
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:I, I applied and was lucky enough to
be chosen to become a prosecutor in the
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:Middlesex District attorney's office.
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:Not because I wanted to put people in
jail, but because I wanted to make sure
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:I was doing the right thing by people.
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:You know?
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:Um, you, you can see you can do justice
in that role and I really found that a
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:beautiful thing that I was able to do.
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:protecting our communities
at the same time.
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:And then, um, you know, however it was,
I worked hard and then I got lucky.
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:There was an opportunity to run
for state representative and
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:I, I ran, I defeated incumbent.
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:Um, I served in the legislature
for 14 years and I was the chairman
370
:of the committee on health care.
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:for about six or eight of those years,
which informed me about how to be a
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:sheriff more than being, you know, going
through a sheriff's office in some ways
373
:from an outside perspective, you know,
taught me about, you know, substance use
374
:disorder and mental illness and medication
assisted treatment and trauma and self
375
:harm, suicide issues, all the things
that we deal with with our population.
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:And then Miraculously, this job opened up.
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:So I have, I've not been as paid
well as some of my contemporaries,
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:but the fact is, I've loved my
jobs, every single one of them.
379
:And I can't imagine being more
fulfilled in my professional life or my
380
:personal life because of that as well.
381
:Tony Tidbit: That is, I mean,
look, that is awesome, my friend.
382
:And, you know, starting with a foundation
of your, your father being public
383
:service, you had something to look up to.
384
:You talked a little bit how
you navigated, you know, from
385
:law school, public defender,
prosecutor, um, now sheriff, right?
386
:And then obviously as you go through
the system and being on all three sides,
387
:public defender, prosecutor, and then
the sheriff, you've seen a lot of the,
388
:you've seen how people of color, you
know, Get caught up in the system.
389
:Okay.
390
:And, and look, at the end of the day,
we all got to hope we have to hold
391
:everyone accountable for right and wrong.
392
:So that's not even the issue, but
you've seen all three sides of that.
393
:Right.
394
:So talk, tell us a little bit in terms
of what some of the things that you
395
:learned because you've been on, you
were the former, uh, the former house
396
:chair of commissions to end Racial and
ethnic, ethnic health disparities, right?
397
:So talk a little bit about some of
the things through that journey within
398
:the system that you've learned about,
you know, what happens to people of
399
:color when they're in and how tough
it is for not just to get out, but
400
:to be successful as they come up.
401
:Sheriff Peter Koutoujian: Yeah, so
thank you for that question, Tony.
402
:Um, some of the proudest work I did
is something that not many people,
403
:um, noticed at the time necessarily
or, or even remember, quite honestly.
404
:Listen, I had a good, good friend
in my legislative aide, uh, Dan
405
:Delaney, who was a man of color.
406
:You know, I still consider him
one of my closest friends, right?
407
:And it was through Dan that I got
to see the world through the eyes
408
:of a black man, honestly, right?
409
:And to understand this, you know, uh,
driving while black was a real thing and
410
:all these things that you hear about.
411
:I was educated.
412
:I was lucky enough to
be educated by a man.
413
:with some experience, some
knowledge and a lot of intellect.
414
:Great man.
415
:And so as we began to explore, um,
the world of healthcare when I was
416
:chairman of that committee, we came
to realize something that was really
417
:obvious that, uh, people of color, um,
uh, they died earlier, they suffered
418
:more disease, premature mortality from
births or like, you know, five, 10, 15
419
:times higher than the white community.
420
:You know cancers heart conditions all
these things that were that communities
421
:of color and poor communities struggled
with And no one seemed to care.
422
:You know, this is what that
doesn't really bother me, right?
423
:If it was happening to the Irish community
of the Armenian community of the Italian
424
:community of the Jewish community,
there'd be there'd be a human cry, right?
425
:This is the injustice of this is
wrong, and we need to fix this.
426
:But because it was happening in the
black and brown community, no one,
427
:you know, not that they didn't care,
but there was no one doing something.
428
:What was even worse was there was no
one calling for a real study of it.
429
:Right.
430
:You had academic studies here and there.
431
:So I remember speaking with Dan and we
had the idea that, uh, I should ask the
432
:speaker of the house, uh, to consider, uh,
establishing a commission to study racial
433
:and, uh, uh, the, the, um, racial and
uh, ethnic minority health disparities.
434
:Right.
435
:Um, and it was a
conservative speaker, right?
436
:Um, democrat, conservative
speaker, and he wasn't interested.
437
:Now.
438
:I don't think it was
because it was a racist.
439
:You I think it was because he's thinking
it's going to cost a lot of money.
440
:We're going to open up a Pandora's box.
441
:It's going to cost a lot of money.
442
:So.
443
:You know, the motivations may not
have been perfect, but they weren't
444
:the wrong motivations, right?
445
:Tony Tidbit: Right.
446
:Sheriff Peter Koutoujian: Can you
447
:Tony Tidbit: stop right
there for a second?
448
:Because I want you to finish,
but you make a good point here.
449
:And I want to dive into that, right?
450
:Because at the end of the day, and, and,
and don't lose your train of thought
451
:because I want to go there, right?
452
:However, we, we got to also be, we got
to be honest because a lot of times, even
453
:though people running for public service,
or they're in public service, right?
454
:And.
455
:They also, they get their
job by getting elected.
456
:All right.
457
:So if there are certain, uh, um, issues
that they don't feel is going to help
458
:them, or they don't feel they have a
whole wave of support behind them to
459
:jump on it, that's going to help them.
460
:Get that wave of that reelection.
461
:It doesn't mean that they,
I don't believe in it.
462
:It's like, I'm trying to keep my job too.
463
:So talk a little and
then finish your story.
464
:Sheriff Peter Koutoujian: Yeah.
465
:So, I mean, listen, he
cared about people, right?
466
:That wasn't the issue, right?
467
:Right.
468
:Um, and so I went at him the first time
and he wasn't particularly interested.
469
:I went at him a second time.
470
:He wasn't particularly interested.
471
:I, I went at him a third time and he
said, well, I'm concerned about this.
472
:I said, Amen.
473
:Hallelujah.
474
:I got an opening here.
475
:Right.
476
:And so it changed some of the language.
477
:Um, and, and we worked it.
478
:Now understand this was not a powerful
community that was demanding this,
479
:this was just Peter Ian is thing.
480
:Right.
481
:This is one man.
482
:Yeah.
483
:Tony Tidbit: One man one, exactly.
484
:Sheriff Peter Koutoujian: That.
485
:Believed in it, understood
it, and knew it was important.
486
:Exactly.
487
:Right.
488
:Exactly.
489
:That's all it was, was one person
that cared enough, um, you know,
490
:to, to fight for a community that.
491
:being, I don't know, um, considered
valued or paid attention to, I guess.
492
:And we're suffering for that, right?
493
:So I went out, I mean, and by the
way, this is a lesson for anyone
494
:that's advocating, advocate, go at it.
495
:And if you said no, that doesn't,
that's not the end of it, man.
496
:You got to go back again
and you go back again.
497
:If you believe in it, go back.
498
:Now you don't have to cause trouble.
499
:You don't have to cause terror.
500
:You don't have to be a jerk, right?
501
:But go and advocate again.
502
:Don't take no for an answer.
503
:If it's the right thing to
do, you should go back again.
504
:And if they say no after 10 times,
maybe you got, you know, maybe
505
:there's only so much you can do.
506
:But the fact is, don't stop.
507
:And I went back three or four times.
508
:And the speaker said, okay, let's do it.
509
:And we created this study that we had.
510
:I'm telling you, man, we had
hearings across the state.
511
:We probably about 50
people on the commission.
512
:We heard from experts around the
state and around the country.
513
:We issued a report in
:
514
:And it's establishment of the data of
what's happening in communities of color
515
:and ethnic communities and the barriers.
516
:And the insurance issues
and so many and their living
517
:conditions and where they live.
518
:Do they live, you know, do
they live in parts of town that
519
:are closer to the highways?
520
:And you've got particular matter
that are affecting their, you know,
521
:all these things, you know, the,
the, the issue of healthy eating.
522
:I mean, we went into all that stuff.
523
:That was amazing.
524
:We did it.
525
:You know, the sad thing though, Tony
and Chris is no one really cared.
526
:The study was published.
527
:I was really proud and no one did
much about it because quite honestly,
528
:a lot needed to be done about it.
529
:Now, the saddest part of this is that
what, you know, 25 years later or what
530
:almost, you know, um, now, um, there's
a new commission to study racial and
531
:ethnic minority health disparities.
532
:My gosh.
533
:Just look, my report, my report,
it's as valuable and important
534
:today as it was back then.
535
:You don't need to go restudy
it, just do something about it.
536
:And that's what I feel frustrated
about is that people aren't stepping
537
:up and doing something about it in a
way that would matter to communities.
538
:Tony Tidbit: Right.
539
:Right.
540
:You know, my friend, so, and
again, that's, that, that's
541
:pretty much in every industry.
542
:I hate to say it right.
543
:That, you know, you get a
champion that's really pushing
544
:something that they believe in.
545
:Um, it's, they see certain inequities,
things that could be fixed.
546
:Um, we finally convinced the powers to
be, to jump into it and let's do it.
547
:And then they finally say, okay,
you know what, let's do it.
548
:And then when you get there and
you get all the information, It
549
:ends up sitting and nobody never
does anything in 20 years later.
550
:You still got the same problem, right?
551
:Same thing.
552
:Same thing.
553
:So, so when, so based on that,
my friend, um, knowing that
554
:you cared about your community.
555
:Right.
556
:And knowing that this was an issue
that you, you champion and push
557
:and yes, you got them to do it,
but not, not a lot of things came
558
:out of it, but you didn't stop.
559
:So talk a little bit more about the things
that you went on that you could control
560
:that you could do to make a difference.
561
:Sheriff Peter Koutoujian: Yep.
562
:So, I mean, listen, we did
things that impact the community.
563
:We do things that impact.
564
:population.
565
:We do things that impact the
law enforcement profession.
566
:So, you know, like one of the
things that I really love about this
567
:job is you get to be innovative.
568
:You get to try new things,
you get to collect data.
569
:And by the way, if the data
shows the program wasn't
570
:efficacious, it didn't work.
571
:Then you can get rid of the program and
or revamp it and find a new program,
572
:which we've done many times on this.
573
:So we started with, um, probably our
very first specialty unit because
574
:it was a culture in my facility.
575
:Um, That was, um, uh, probably
not as open about new progressive
576
:or specialty units, right?
577
:It was sort of a, it was just a
traditional corrections mentality.
578
:And so we started with a veterans unit.
579
:Um, I, I felt like our officers would buy
into this because it was about veterans.
580
:It was very supportive of veterans.
581
:Uh, the only, the only kind of daring
part I'd say where it pushed the envelope
582
:a little bit was that I insisted that
we accept veterans that have been
583
:discharged, uh, uh, dishonorably or other
than honorably, because quite honestly,
584
:if you raise your hand in defense of
our country, I don't care why you're
585
:in there or how you were discharged.
586
:I'm going to, I'm going
to serve you, right?
587
:And I just think that was really
important that we honor those that
588
:served our country and raise their
hand to protect us with their lives.
589
:And then it's, then it moved on to,
uh, uh, medic medication assisted
590
:treatment for the treatment of opioids.
591
:We've got a terrible problem
in Massachusetts and greater,
592
:um, a New England area.
593
:Uh, and so we started a medication
assisted treatment program
594
:about 11 or 12 years ago.
595
:That was really cutting edge at the time.
596
:I brought this from my
state house experience.
597
:Uh, we became one of the 1st in the
country to use medication assisted
598
:treatment in a carceral facility.
599
:And that has worked out to be,
it's become a nation leading model.
600
:Actually, we're still used as
a model as to how to, um, to
601
:create in these, these systems.
602
:And then 1 of the things that I was
really proud of was from I mentioned
603
:from my own experience as a young adult.
604
:I created a young adult offender
program, the first of its kind in a jail.
605
:So treating those from 18 through
26 years old, um, uh, in a different
606
:way, a whole remaking of this, uh, of
the way that we deal with corrections
607
:with this age group, you know, these,
these young men are, you know, all the
608
:science has shown us that they're later
in maturation than we believe, right?
609
:We think that they're all adults
by the time they're 18 or 21.
610
:Right.
611
:That ain't true.
612
:Right.
613
:Um, we, that they, that they,
uh, engage in riskier behaviors,
614
:especially the young men.
615
:It's just kind of a natural thing to do.
616
:Um, that they, um, they don't understand
the consequences of their actions.
617
:Something that I didn't understand,
even though I wasn't justice involved.
618
:So that you're doing things you
don't realize how it's going to
619
:mess up the rest of your life.
620
:Uh, and the fact that they have
higher rates of recidivism and,
621
:uh, and problematic behavior.
622
:They also have higher rates of, for
those that are incarcerated, much higher
623
:rates of trauma in their households.
624
:Right?
625
:So this is something that
makes them different.
626
:So we started this unit using cognitive
behavioral therapies, a whole different
627
:way to look at it, um, and address them.
628
:It's a unit where, uh, Um, you know,
a lot of the gang affiliated folks
629
:come in, they leave their colors
at the door, they make it work.
630
:It's a unit, uh, that the
officers are much more available.
631
:Um, they're around speaking to
individuals one on one place.
632
:You wouldn't really see that
in the rest of the facility.
633
:Uh, and the recidivism rate is
remarkably low for this age group.
634
:I think it's around 15%.
635
:So 85 percent don't recidivate and that
and that just has led to more and more,
636
:you know, Whether it's our women's
pre release or family support services
637
:program, which was really, um, I'm
really proud of because one of the things
638
:is we think about we're so focused on
the person that's incarcerated, right?
639
:Getting them better.
640
:We think about them a lot.
641
:We forget about the victim
of the crime, right?
642
:We just don't even think
about them very much.
643
:But the one group that we never think
about at all is the family members
644
:of the incarcerated individual.
645
:So we actually support the family members.
646
:For more information, visit www.
647
:FEMA.
648
:gov through educational opportunities
and, uh, and, and, and, um, instructional
649
:opportunities, um, and even Thanksgiving
meals and like, um, uh, book bag drives
650
:and all this sort of stuff to show that
we care about the family and support
651
:that family because, you know, that
family is the most important part when
652
:these, you know, men and women come
back out, um, and that family is going
653
:to be the one that supports them.
654
:Um, and, and that's, that's crucially
important that we save that family.
655
:Also, it shows.
656
:One of the things that people
should understand is, uh, I call
657
:it trickle down corrections.
658
:Those, um, those that have, uh,
those children of incarcerated
659
:individuals are much more likely to
have failures in education, truancy
660
:in education, sociopathic behavior,
and higher rates of incarceration.
661
:So if we can actually help support the
family and stem that, that next trend
662
:in that generation, then we've done a
lot for a lot of generations thereafter.
663
:Chris P. Reed: You said something
earlier that's, that's resonated
664
:with me and you kind of reinforced it
throughout the different things that
665
:you're talking about, programs and such.
666
:Um, how difficult is it?
667
:And this is me as a, as a citizen, and
I'm sure plenty of our audience, how
668
:difficult is it for you as a servant
to not accept the uncomplicated?
669
:No.
670
:So let me, let me frame that up for you.
671
:You went in and you said, I presented it.
672
:And he said, no, and then you
said something that threw me
673
:off, which is I represented it.
674
:And he said, no, and I represent it.
675
:So because the no was just a simple no.
676
:And it wasn't no, because of this
reason, that reason, this reason,
677
:that you were like, okay, I'm not just
going to give up and go away quietly.
678
:First of all, I salute you
for that destitutiveness, but
679
:also how difficult is that?
680
:And how common is that?
681
:So, oh, you got
682
:Sheriff Peter Koutoujian:
some, you got some noise there.
683
:Tony, you're going to play.
684
:Tony Tidbit: I was giving
you a round of applause, but
685
:Sheriff Peter Koutoujian: we'll
686
:Tony Tidbit: go ahead
687
:Sheriff Peter Koutoujian:
and do your thing,
688
:Tony Tidbit: buddy.
689
:Sheriff Peter Koutoujian: Listen, I just,
690
:if people don't advocate for others,
then who's going to advocate for them?
691
:Right?
692
:I've just seen too many people that are.
693
:That are supposed to be leading on an
issue and then they're told no and they
694
:just quietly go away And there's nothing
more offensive to me than that If it's
695
:a good idea, then you've got to go fight
for it and you don't have to be a jerk
696
:about it You don't have to be antagonistic
or get into fights with people but at
697
:least go back a few more times and and
I was able to show him that You know,
698
:it was important It would serve our
communities, including his community.
699
:Um, and that, and there was
not going to be a money, you
700
:know, a money component to this.
701
:And if he was worried like, oh,
we're going to have to find this
702
:and going to cost this much more in
our system, not to worry about that.
703
:And I knew he was a good man, right?
704
:I just needed to kind of get through
him a couple of times and, and, I've
705
:seen many, um, um, elected people
that will go like in front of the
706
:cameras to go advocate for something.
707
:But once the cameras light shut
off, they just kind of go home.
708
:They don't, they don't, you
know, they, they drop the issue.
709
:There's nothing more offensive to
me in policy leadership than, you
710
:know, uh, lifting something up when
the camera's around and they're just
711
:dropping it when they disappear.
712
:Many of my things that I got done took
me, you know, 10, 11, 12 years to do in
713
:the legislature, which is a long, brutal
period of time to stay on something.
714
:But I'm really proud that I stayed on
them because I was getting frustrated.
715
:Like, it makes common sense.
716
:Let's just do it.
717
:Why, why is this not getting done?
718
:So I, I just think it's a, people have to
be strong and passionate and, and caring.
719
:Don't be afraid.
720
:Listen, We shouldn't be afraid
of being told no, right?
721
:Right.
722
:Opportunity to re engage.
723
:Tony Tidbit: Right, right.
724
:You know, my friend, you, let's, let's,
because you've done a lot of great things.
725
:in Middlesex County in Massachusetts.
726
:Um, and maybe a lot of
people are not aware of.
727
:So let's talk, let's dive into some of the
programs and stuff that you came up with
728
:that helped change the lives of not only
the, the incarcerated, but their families.
729
:Um, even the people that, you know,
actually are in the system, um,
730
:that, you know, actually hold them
accountable, put them behind bars.
731
:You've done a lot of stuff.
732
:So you've come up with.
733
:the family support service unit, right?
734
:Talk a little bit about that.
735
:Um, and then I want to dive into the,
the, the Frederick Douglass project
736
:that you guys
737
:put together.
738
:I think it's fascinating.
739
:I think it's awesome, but it
speaks to the whole of everything
740
:that you're bringing together.
741
:Sheriff Peter Koutoujian: Yeah.
742
:So, um, as I said, part of the reason I
like, I was really pleased to be invited
743
:on your podcast is because I think it's
important that people know what goes
744
:on behind the bars, so to speak, right?
745
:On the other side of the wall,
on the other side of the wall,
746
:people don't really know.
747
:They don't understand.
748
:Um, and so the family support services,
again, what we did was created a,
749
:an entity where we were able to
connect with the loved ones, usually
750
:their wives, girlfriends, partners,
whomever, and their children, right?
751
:Because mostly we've got men up here.
752
:Um, and, and, and these are the
people that love these guys, right?
753
:So all the people that they were
running, ripping and running with
754
:on the outside, you know, they're
not visiting him up in my jail.
755
:They're not throwing any
money in their canteen.
756
:They're not throwing any
money in their phone fund.
757
:Right.
758
:You know, they'll be welcoming them
like open arms when they get back
759
:on the outside, cause they want
to rip and run with them again.
760
:Right.
761
:Yeah.
762
:I mean, Hey, um, you
know, um, my boy, right.
763
:But, but so all the people that are
actually visiting are generally, you know,
764
:not all of these, but you know, they're
generally grandmothers, mothers, sisters.
765
:Girlfriends, you know, um, wives, it's all
the women that care about these people.
766
:Um, and they're the ones that are
struggling, you know, emotionally,
767
:socioeconomically, right.
768
:And all these ways that.
769
:No one remembers that they're stuck on
the outside raising a family while their
770
:partner is on the inside You know, I just
realized like, you know, you know how I
771
:realized this actually as i'm thinking
about this I would have people call me up
772
:say hey sheriff or they know me, right?
773
:So they were someone of a I don't want
to say that i'm on a higher status
774
:But some of the status that would
know a high level elected official
775
:or an elected official, right?
776
:And they so they'd call me because they
knew You that their kid was in trouble
777
:in my jail, or they had someone that
they knew whose kid was in my jail.
778
:Um, so it was only people that knew
me or knew someone that knew me.
779
:So meaning, you know, I get
these calls all year long.
780
:Now, I love these calls because
I get to engage with the family,
781
:tell them what's going on.
782
:You know, it's okay.
783
:Things are good.
784
:They're being treated well.
785
:Find out if they had any needs, like,
You know, they needed glasses or hearing
786
:aids or they were struggling with mental
health issues that we should know about.
787
:That was always really good to know.
788
:But I realized that there were
thousands of other people that didn't
789
:know me or knew someone that knew
me to be able to get a call from me.
790
:So I said, we should.
791
:That's not right.
792
:That's not equitable.
793
:So.
794
:That's when we created
this, this position.
795
:And it's, we've had thousands of
calls with families, dozens of
796
:training opportunities with families.
797
:We've done family reconciliation programs
with a community college in the area
798
:to help kind of to fix the frayed
relationships in many ways, right?
799
:We can find out if the, if
the, if the loved one is like.
800
:Having trouble emotionally because
the family member will tell us.
801
:So, you know, one of the things you
worry about in a carceral facility
802
:is suicide or self harm, right?
803
:Some of you always worry about.
804
:Now, we've got someone to say,
I'm speaking with my husband.
805
:I'm speaking with my
boyfriend, whatever it is.
806
:He seems to be in a bad place
or, you know, his mom died or his
807
:dad died or someone like that.
808
:You know, please just make sure you watch.
809
:So we get to care for
them better that way, too.
810
:It's a remarkable opportunity.
811
:Now we're also having family
contact visits with minor children
812
:in a room that we created to be
like, very children friendly.
813
:We had an artist, you know, paint,
you know, characters on the walls.
814
:It's really a beautiful thing
when you see a family in there.
815
:And the whole thing about that
unit, by the way, is not that you
816
:get to visit your, your partner
and the kids are running around
817
:watching TV or playing with crayons.
818
:The fact is, is if we see that we go
and we tap on the shoulder, hey, No, no,
819
:the idea is to engage with the Children.
820
:It's not for the contact visit with
your partner and the kids are there.
821
:This is about the Children.
822
:We've also had many the Department
of Children's Services visits
823
:court visits overseen in here too.
824
:So that's really one of the most
rewarding, like really one of
825
:the most rewarding things that
I found that we do up here.
826
:Chris P. Reed: Let me let me.
827
:Educate you on the nature of criminal
justice because you obviously missed
828
:something in your law degrees and your
times on the job when people commit
829
:crimes, they are dehumanized and
the people that are affected by the
830
:mistake that that person may deserve
to suffer as much as that person does.
831
:And for whatever reason, you've decided.
832
:That you understand the shrapnel that
occurs when somebody makes a mistake and
833
:you shouldn't have to throw the baby out
with the bathwater, so to speak, and have
834
:created programs that allow for these
people to re humanize and understand and
835
:actually rehabilitate due to the fact
that everybody hasn't given up on them
836
:and they don't have to live this out.
837
:In a perpetual punishment, but they'll
find the best, most motivated, um, mature
838
:way of being encouraged to come out
on the other side of this because they
839
:realize people still give a damn about me.
840
:People are still going to show up.
841
:And these are the people that I'm
going one day at a time for to be
842
:a good, a good civil, uh, inmate.
843
:You're going, you're creating behavioral
dynamics, you're creating a sense
844
:of pride and, and, and, and you're
not institutionalizing these folks.
845
:Um, why hasn't somebody stopped you, sir?
846
:Sheriff Peter Koutoujian: Cause
847
:Chris P. Reed: that's
not what this thing was
848
:Sheriff Peter Koutoujian: designed
849
:Chris P. Reed: to
850
:Sheriff Peter Koutoujian: do.
851
:You said, Chris is so true though.
852
:Right.
853
:You know, if you treat people like human
beings, they'll behave like human beings.
854
:And, um, and this is the other
thing that's really interesting
855
:about corrections is We've prepared
the incarcerated individual.
856
:For re entry into the
community and family.
857
:We give them anger management, family
dynamics, educational opportunities,
858
:but we never prepare the family For the
entrance of the incarcerated individual
859
:who by the way has been locked up for
a period of time Is probably frustrated
860
:and anxious and trying to get back out
in the world and scared and not prepared
861
:as fully as anyone wants for re entry
And so we we prepare that person But we
862
:don't prepare the family to say, hey,
this is what they're going to be like.
863
:This is how it's going to be.
864
:This is how to help them,
uh, almost creating a support
865
:service volunteer on the outside.
866
:And by the way, the other thing I think is
really good about this program is that it
867
:reminds the people that are incarcerated,
like, look at you, man, you're in
868
:jail because you, you did crimes.
869
:But the damn sheriff's office is helping
you with your family right now, right?
870
:So I just think that kind of makes them
mindful of what they've done how it's
871
:impacted their loved ones And who we
are as an organization that wants to
872
:support them In a deeper way than just
giving them programs on the inside,
873
:Tony Tidbit: right?
874
:And then and that's from the family
dynamic, but then you also Help the
875
:inmates Prepare for reentry and and that's
your Frederick Frederick project, right?
876
:And which I was enamored by.
877
:I read the article.
878
:I'm going to read an excerpt out of the
Boston Globe about this, but I thought
879
:that, you know, this, this 316, You
know, um, uh, angle that you're taking
880
:from the inmate, the family, and then
also the community as well, getting them
881
:prepared for the inmate to come back.
882
:Right.
883
:But I love what you, what you stated here.
884
:Right.
885
:And I'm going to, this is a quote
out of the, uh, uh, Boston Globe.
886
:This goes back to December of 2023.
887
:And this is what you said.
888
:Frederick Douglas was the most
photographic man of his era.
889
:He had his photo taken over 160 times.
890
:He was the Because he felt it was
important for people to see a free
891
:black man and to see his success.
892
:All right, and that's some of the
things that you told this group behind
893
:the inspiration of this project.
894
:And then you said, these
people are not monsters.
895
:They're not mugshots you saw on the news.
896
:They're human beings who make
mistakes and are paying a steep price.
897
:But who are almost certainly coming
home and we want them to succeed.
898
:Okay.
899
:So, buddy, I mean, to
Chris's point, I don't know.
900
:No, and that that ain't
in criminal justice.
901
:1 on 1 from a prosecuting standpoint
is lock the key up and go away.
902
:And then if they're breathing,
when it's time for them to come
903
:out, then we'll do something.
904
:So speak to this program that you're
doing how you're having the inmates.
905
:Get together, they're communicating
with people from the outside, talk,
906
:tell our audience about it and the
effect that it's having with the
907
:inmate, the family, and the community.
908
:BEP Narrator: If you like what you hear
and want to join us on this journey
909
:of making uncomfortable conversations
comfortable, please subscribe to a
910
:Black Executive Perspective podcast
on YouTube, Apple Podcasts, Spotify,
911
:or wherever you get your podcasts.
912
:Hit subscribe now to stay connected
for more episodes that challenge,
913
:inspire, and lead the change.
914
:Sheriff Peter Koutoujian: So thank you
very much for bringing that program up.
915
:I'm really proud of it.
916
:And by the way, the thing about Frederick
Douglass, when he was photographed
917
:so many times, People should not
misunderstand the fact this was not
918
:ego that made him do this, right?
919
:As I said, he did it because he
wanted people to see an image
920
:of a free black man, right?
921
:And it wasn't easy to do.
922
:Today, you go in front of a
camera, you take a picture.
923
:Back then, there's a reason
people didn't smile in those
924
:photos because those exposures
sometimes took 15 and 20 minutes.
925
:So you had to sit still
for 15 to 20 minutes.
926
:Tony and Chris, you guys got
beautiful smiles, but I don't
927
:think you can hold that thing for
15 straight minutes, man, right?
928
:So exactly so that's why like he had this
stern face, but it's kind of interesting
929
:So it was not it was a labor of love that
he did these photos He wanted people to
930
:see who he was and that's why we want
us people on the inside to see Who these
931
:people are now, something that I've always
said since I became sheriff is that a
932
:jail is not just a fortress on a hill.
933
:It's part of a community.
934
:And if you don't, if you don't treat it
as part of the community and have the
935
:community's involvement and understanding
of its mission, then it will fail.
936
:Right?
937
:So this is a great way to do this.
938
:Now, I take tours, you know, we bring
in legislators and people as much as I
939
:can, because I want them to see a well
run, um, Correctional facility, you
940
:know, you see so many on on on the TV.
941
:Those are not well run facilities.
942
:Right?
943
:I mean, you know, the camera crews
would come up to my place and they'd
944
:like, just go home and say, if there's
nothing to see here, there's nothing
945
:interesting going on here, which
is the beauty of good corrections.
946
:Right?
947
:Um, and so, so, so if
so, this is a way that.
948
:It started with Professor Mark Howard from
Georgetown, and he had this idea about
949
:bringing people from the public inside
a carceral facility in a systematic way.
950
:And so what we do is we have about
15 or so people from the outside
951
:community is the way we call it.
952
:And they'll come to our facility,
we'll give them a quick tour
953
:of our facility, some of the
programs that we've spoken about.
954
:Then we'll bring them down into
a larger area where they'll
955
:connect with 10, maybe 15 people.
956
:Inside participants, we sit around in
a large circle, usually facilitated
957
:by Mark Howard or someone else.
958
:We start to do some icebreaker.
959
:We do in quick introductions, some
icebreaker questions, just to start a
960
:little bit of discussion, the purpose
of this, and then break into we break
961
:them into small groups, 4 or 5 or
6, maybe, and we serve some food.
962
:We actually allow them to
break bread with each other.
963
:Right?
964
:And then they have these very intimate
conversations about what life is like
965
:on the inside, Um, what, what, you know,
what troubles people on the outside,
966
:the inside, how they ended up there,
what are they looking forward to do?
967
:Tell me about their families.
968
:Right?
969
:And then you come back into the larger
group, and now you share those experiences
970
:in the larger group, and then the
outside participants gather and go home.
971
:The inside participants
go back to their units.
972
:This is a remarkable, um, Program and
it has brought so much humanity to what
973
:we do So for the people on the outside,
it gives them an understanding that
974
:the people on the inside are really
not that much different They had a
975
:really bad problem with drugs Or a
really significant mental health issue,
976
:or it was a really bad day, right?
977
:Um, or, or it was just, or sometimes
honestly, there's a people with a
978
:history of criminal behaviors too, right?
979
:Um, and for the people on the inside,
it's really important because they get
980
:to understand that the public, the people
on the outside actually care about them.
981
:Like, I didn't realize the
impact it had on them as much
982
:until we started the program.
983
:They say, Oh, someone cares about me.
984
:I feel like I matter again.
985
:And this brought an understanding like
we had people come to our facility
986
:that had looks on their faces like,
like they smelled something bad.
987
:Like they were, they were immediately knew
that they were going to be under pressed.
988
:They were going to be angry
at the way that Incarcerated
989
:people were being treated or
the programming or the facility.
990
:They had this look on their face Like they
were not they were they were preparing
991
:to be mad And maybe that's why they want
to come in so they could just see how
992
:mad they should be about what's going on
inside And then as they left coming out
993
:with big smiles on their faces writing
an email to me the very next day And then
994
:we've done work with these some of these
organizations to better the lives of the
995
:people inside to a miraculous program
that was brought to us by Mark Howard,
996
:making a difference in a significant way.
997
:Um, and it's really good for
community, but it's good for
998
:that inside community as well
999
:Chris P. Reed: with such a significant
philosophical and psychological shift.
:
00:48:29,500 --> 00:48:34,610
As we talked about, people have Uh,
thoughts about the system and, and how
:
00:48:34,610 --> 00:48:37,820
people are when they're in there and
who's in there, and things of that nature.
:
00:48:38,080 --> 00:48:42,360
How have you been able to retract, to
attract recruits or, or build up that
:
00:48:42,360 --> 00:48:46,890
staff of individuals, particularly people
of color, women, you know, people that
:
00:48:46,890 --> 00:48:49,110
may be vulnerable to some of these crimes.
:
00:48:49,230 --> 00:48:53,700
How have you gotten them to participate
and being able to keep up that momentum?
:
00:48:53,760 --> 00:48:56,070
Sheriff Peter Koutoujian:
Yeah, so, um, so as far as the
:
00:48:56,070 --> 00:48:57,390
participation and the engagement.
:
00:48:58,300 --> 00:48:59,950
I mean, the first unit was different.
:
00:49:00,020 --> 00:49:02,920
I think people were not sure what to
expect, but it used to be a culture
:
00:49:03,470 --> 00:49:06,060
that exists in many other carceral
facilities of people just walking
:
00:49:06,060 --> 00:49:10,720
up and down a tier or walking around
a pod, you know, just making sure,
:
00:49:11,080 --> 00:49:12,249
you know, there's no fighting.
:
00:49:12,750 --> 00:49:14,459
There's no open drug use.
:
00:49:14,500 --> 00:49:16,229
There's no self harm, right?
:
00:49:16,229 --> 00:49:20,620
You know, the basic stuff of what what
you'd see in many carceral facilities
:
00:49:20,620 --> 00:49:22,220
and now because the specialty units.
:
00:49:22,620 --> 00:49:25,930
It took the first one with the veterans
that was accepted and then it went into
:
00:49:25,930 --> 00:49:29,500
the medication assisted treatment Which
was a big change for them and then it
:
00:49:29,500 --> 00:49:33,630
went into the young adult offenders, which
was a huger change then we brought in
:
00:49:34,249 --> 00:49:39,169
pre release women Um, it was another huge
change What we found was that with each
:
00:49:39,190 --> 00:49:42,149
new program we brought in because people
started seeing oh, there's something
:
00:49:42,149 --> 00:49:47,770
to there's something that's Something
more rewarding, maybe more interesting
:
00:49:47,810 --> 00:49:50,440
about doing this work more engaging.
:
00:49:50,440 --> 00:49:54,400
And so they started actually
signing up for more and more of
:
00:49:54,410 --> 00:49:55,970
the training to do the newer units.
:
00:49:56,550 --> 00:50:01,690
And as far as the representation,
yeah, you want the, the, the.
:
00:50:02,115 --> 00:50:05,585
The community, the inside
community in the outside community
:
00:50:05,595 --> 00:50:08,945
and our staff to be basically
representative of each other, right?
:
00:50:08,945 --> 00:50:13,905
You can't have, you know, 1 race inside
and 1 race outside or vice versa.
:
00:50:13,905 --> 00:50:14,634
You got to have it.
:
00:50:14,634 --> 00:50:15,474
So it's reflective.
:
00:50:15,475 --> 00:50:19,234
So, you know, in our most current
basic training academy, we had.
:
00:50:19,690 --> 00:50:25,840
Um, 43 percent were white, 22 percent
were black, 22 percent were hispanic,
:
00:50:26,070 --> 00:50:29,530
and that basically mimics what's going
on in our communities at the same time.
:
00:50:29,829 --> 00:50:34,629
Uh, and by the way, it's really important
that you have women inside, um, in these,
:
00:50:34,690 --> 00:50:39,800
in these roles too, because they're, you
know, they're, they're, they're in many
:
00:50:39,800 --> 00:50:44,570
ways better or at least as good as some of
the best men in managing the population.
:
00:50:44,740 --> 00:50:47,410
Not physically necessarily,
but using their brains.
:
00:50:47,610 --> 00:50:51,620
Using communication skills, um,
and they're an important part
:
00:50:51,780 --> 00:50:54,020
of making a unit successful.
:
00:50:54,030 --> 00:50:57,760
When I started, the women were
really in, um, the mail room.
:
00:50:57,960 --> 00:50:59,740
They were watching the monitors.
:
00:51:00,380 --> 00:51:02,089
They were on the outside stuff.
:
00:51:02,460 --> 00:51:05,180
And, um, and because of that,
too, by the way, they couldn't
:
00:51:05,180 --> 00:51:09,035
get, Promotions to sergeants or
lieutenants because they weren't
:
00:51:09,035 --> 00:51:10,555
experienced in the operational side.
:
00:51:10,555 --> 00:51:14,135
So when you're looking for operational
sergeant, they had no experience in that.
:
00:51:14,135 --> 00:51:16,475
And you couldn't do anything to judge
and say, I think they'd be good in here
:
00:51:16,515 --> 00:51:17,625
because it would be brand new step.
:
00:51:18,005 --> 00:51:20,385
So now we've got more women stepping up.
:
00:51:20,455 --> 00:51:23,294
Our latest classes have been
more diverse than ever before.
:
00:51:23,584 --> 00:51:26,375
You know, what I really love is we've got
more people from outside of the country.
:
00:51:26,600 --> 00:51:31,270
The language is being spoken from Africa
and South America and Central America are,
:
00:51:31,350 --> 00:51:33,570
are, that's stunningly varied right now.
:
00:51:33,860 --> 00:51:37,630
So, you know, it's, it's the, the variance
and now they're getting a little bit older
:
00:51:37,630 --> 00:51:41,440
too, which brings in a lot of maturation
and a lot of better behavior as well.
:
00:51:42,850 --> 00:51:44,490
Tony Tidbit: Buddy, I
got to give it to you.
:
00:51:44,709 --> 00:51:47,489
Um, you've put together
something that's special.
:
00:51:48,069 --> 00:51:51,709
I would imagine, um, that
you're touching and affecting.
:
00:51:52,205 --> 00:51:56,075
Positively, a lot of lives
on all sides of the triangle.
:
00:51:56,575 --> 00:52:01,145
Um, and so we're so happy that you came
on to share because more people need
:
00:52:01,145 --> 00:52:02,734
to know this back to Chris's point.
:
00:52:03,075 --> 00:52:06,405
You know, at the end of the day,
words paint pictures, um, and when
:
00:52:06,405 --> 00:52:09,815
you think of criminal justice and
you think of a sheriff, or you think
:
00:52:09,815 --> 00:52:14,365
of, you know, prosecutors and, or,
you know, convicts, you think of
:
00:52:14,365 --> 00:52:15,934
all the negative things, right?
:
00:52:15,935 --> 00:52:20,665
And let's be fair, you know, rightfully
so in some areas, but to be honest,
:
00:52:20,725 --> 00:52:25,005
right, for you to have vision, and that's
where we kick this episode off, you,
:
00:52:25,035 --> 00:52:30,885
for you to be a visionary, To, you know,
play chess, not checkers and recognize
:
00:52:30,885 --> 00:52:34,984
by doing this, because I would imagine
there's a backlash as well while we spend
:
00:52:34,984 --> 00:52:38,474
the money on these people, you know,
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, but you're
:
00:52:38,475 --> 00:52:43,834
seeing it as an opportunity to not only
affect the, the inmate, but affect the
:
00:52:43,834 --> 00:52:48,415
community, because these people are going
to come home and then more importantly,
:
00:52:48,485 --> 00:52:54,310
yeah, I think you said it earlier, the,
the return rate, So now they're going to
:
00:52:54,340 --> 00:52:56,580
become, you know, productive citizens.
:
00:52:56,750 --> 00:53:01,570
And even when I read the article about
the, um, Frederick Douglass project
:
00:53:01,850 --> 00:53:05,740
and the, um, the group of individuals
that you talked about, how the
:
00:53:05,740 --> 00:53:08,370
community people from the community
and the inmates all sat together.
:
00:53:08,600 --> 00:53:11,549
I believe 1 of the people from
the community said, hey, I'm
:
00:53:11,549 --> 00:53:13,110
open to giving this guy a job.
:
00:53:13,389 --> 00:53:13,930
Sheriff Peter Koutoujian: Yeah, right.
:
00:53:13,930 --> 00:53:15,299
Tony Tidbit: Yeah, right.
:
00:53:15,299 --> 00:53:19,240
Because they were able to break
bread and build those relationships.
:
00:53:19,330 --> 00:53:21,770
So, final thoughts, my friend,
what do you want to leave with the
:
00:53:21,780 --> 00:53:25,600
audience in terms of what you're
doing and what you want them to know?
:
00:53:25,600 --> 00:53:27,340
And more importantly,
what action they can take?
:
00:53:27,730 --> 00:53:29,340
Sheriff Peter Koutoujian:
So, um, two things.
:
00:53:29,340 --> 00:53:33,040
One, I want them to remember the humanity
of the people about whom we speak.
:
00:53:33,420 --> 00:53:35,435
As we said, Some of them are trouble.
:
00:53:35,445 --> 00:53:39,525
Some of this, some, some of them are,
you know, not great people, right?
:
00:53:39,525 --> 00:53:42,745
We have to acknowledge that there's
a lot of great people there, right?
:
00:53:42,745 --> 00:53:45,485
I mean, I speak about them in this
way because I should speak about them
:
00:53:45,485 --> 00:53:48,185
in the way that I do, but there's
a lot of tough people out there,
:
00:53:48,475 --> 00:53:50,295
um, that really struggle, right?
:
00:53:50,634 --> 00:53:52,734
But they deserve the opportunity
to be treated with dignity.
:
00:53:52,735 --> 00:53:54,495
I mean, it's not my job to punish them.
:
00:53:54,715 --> 00:53:57,185
I'm just supposed to hold
them and hopefully prepare
:
00:53:57,185 --> 00:53:58,055
them to be better, right?
:
00:53:58,115 --> 00:53:59,095
And that's my job.
:
00:53:59,435 --> 00:54:02,605
And then secondly, the corrections,
uh, professionals, right?
:
00:54:02,840 --> 00:54:08,570
You know, you got corrections officers
and case managers and nurses, uh,
:
00:54:08,610 --> 00:54:12,510
and mental health professionals that
care for these people on the inside.
:
00:54:12,880 --> 00:54:14,540
And that's a really tough job, right?
:
00:54:14,800 --> 00:54:17,730
Um, so one thing I always say, I always
call the corrections professionals
:
00:54:17,750 --> 00:54:19,370
the silent guardians of public safety.
:
00:54:19,370 --> 00:54:21,119
No one really knows who
they are, what they do.
:
00:54:21,385 --> 00:54:23,155
They know how to say thank
you to a police officer.
:
00:54:23,155 --> 00:54:25,585
Maybe if they want to or a
firefighter or things like that
:
00:54:25,585 --> 00:54:26,955
But they don't know what a co does.
:
00:54:27,125 --> 00:54:30,635
They don't know who they are So if
people get to either if they know a
:
00:54:30,635 --> 00:54:34,604
corrections officer Or a professional
or they meet one just to say thank you
:
00:54:34,604 --> 00:54:37,840
for their service because I think it's
a really tough job But it's a really
:
00:54:37,840 --> 00:54:39,470
noble profession at the same time,
:
00:54:39,570 --> 00:54:40,010
Chris P. Reed: man.
:
00:54:40,020 --> 00:54:43,090
Well, that's, you know,
it's been a lot today.
:
00:54:43,090 --> 00:54:46,569
I think it's been very beneficial
for myself personally, definitely
:
00:54:46,580 --> 00:54:48,530
my audience or our audience.
:
00:54:48,819 --> 00:54:51,220
1 of the things that I want
to congratulate and thank
:
00:54:51,220 --> 00:54:52,670
you for joining us today.
:
00:54:52,700 --> 00:54:56,540
Thank you for imparting that wisdom
and thank you for as a civil servant.
:
00:54:56,835 --> 00:54:59,605
Understanding that these
people are your people.
:
00:55:00,165 --> 00:55:04,305
And so, you know, you really do
embody that and exemplify that.
:
00:55:04,555 --> 00:55:08,754
And that's a great way to do
your job and make this a better
:
00:55:08,754 --> 00:55:11,004
situation for everyone going forward.
:
00:55:11,035 --> 00:55:14,324
I'm sure you'll never know the families
that you've impacted positively.
:
00:55:14,324 --> 00:55:17,915
It's just numerous at this point in time,
but that you're doing it for the right
:
00:55:17,925 --> 00:55:19,405
reasons, not for the numbers, right?
:
00:55:19,415 --> 00:55:20,375
It's not for a spreadsheet.
:
00:55:20,455 --> 00:55:20,825
That's right.
:
00:55:20,825 --> 00:55:22,105
And, uh, I appreciate that.
:
00:55:22,105 --> 00:55:25,844
And I want to thank you, uh, sheriff
Peter Koutoujian for coming on and
:
00:55:25,844 --> 00:55:26,865
sharing that with our audience.
:
00:55:27,100 --> 00:55:27,890
Sheriff Peter Koutoujian:
Thank you, Chris.
:
00:55:28,010 --> 00:55:28,590
Thank you, Tony.
:
00:55:29,510 --> 00:55:30,170
Tony Tidbit: He killed it.
:
00:55:30,180 --> 00:55:30,990
You're awesome.
:
00:55:31,190 --> 00:55:35,740
And I, you know what the other
lesson don't take no for an answer.
:
00:55:37,770 --> 00:55:40,759
keep moving forward, believe
in it, make it happen.
:
00:55:40,959 --> 00:55:43,829
So I want you to stay right
there because you're going to
:
00:55:43,829 --> 00:55:45,310
help us with our call to action.
:
00:55:45,489 --> 00:55:48,840
I think it's now time
for what Tony's tidbit.
:
00:55:48,870 --> 00:55:51,820
So now it's time for Tony's
tidbit and the tidbit today.
:
00:55:52,915 --> 00:55:56,045
Reform goes beyond changing systems.
:
00:55:56,385 --> 00:56:01,875
It's about transforming lives by
shifting our perspective on justice.
:
00:56:02,245 --> 00:56:07,195
We begin the real work of correction,
empowering individual through
:
00:56:07,245 --> 00:56:13,644
understanding and redefining
corrections to foster community growth.
:
00:56:14,274 --> 00:56:18,455
And you heard that today from our
brother, Sheriff Peter Koutoujian.
:
00:56:18,605 --> 00:56:21,325
I mean, look, this brother,
man, I love you a lot.
:
00:56:21,765 --> 00:56:25,155
And if anything, a black executive
perspective podcast can do
:
00:56:25,155 --> 00:56:27,454
for you, you don't hesitate.
:
00:56:27,755 --> 00:56:28,415
Okay.
:
00:56:28,485 --> 00:56:31,015
You don't all you do is just let us know.
:
00:56:31,025 --> 00:56:35,884
We got your back because we need more
sheriffs like you in this system.
:
00:56:36,005 --> 00:56:38,415
I could imagine there's other
people doing stuff as well.
:
00:56:38,815 --> 00:56:40,005
But my point is.
:
00:56:40,540 --> 00:56:42,450
The hells are the things
that make a difference.
:
00:56:42,450 --> 00:56:45,900
And back to Chris's point,
you probably have no clue.
:
00:56:46,400 --> 00:56:49,609
Yes, you probably get calls and emails,
but you probably have no clue of the
:
00:56:49,610 --> 00:56:55,200
lives that you're affecting, not just
today, but those kids lives in the future.
:
00:56:55,850 --> 00:57:00,409
It's going to grow up in a more
fostered, more loving family because
:
00:57:00,409 --> 00:57:01,890
of the programs you put them in.
:
00:57:01,890 --> 00:57:04,350
So you stay right there, my
friend, because we're going
:
00:57:04,350 --> 00:57:05,350
to call you right back.
:
00:57:05,450 --> 00:57:08,310
Chris P. Reed: We want to make sure
that we take this time to remind you
:
00:57:08,310 --> 00:57:10,260
to tune in to the weekly segment.
:
00:57:10,625 --> 00:57:15,995
Need to know with DrNsenga Burton, a black
is yet to perspective podcast is where Dr.
:
00:57:15,995 --> 00:57:19,274
Burton dives into timely and
crucial topics that shape
:
00:57:19,274 --> 00:57:20,645
our community and the world.
:
00:57:20,645 --> 00:57:25,605
In fact, she's multi hyphenated
so deep, so broad, so talented
:
00:57:25,734 --> 00:57:26,915
and so full of energy.
:
00:57:27,065 --> 00:57:28,395
You have to tune into this.
:
00:57:28,455 --> 00:57:29,555
You don't want to miss it.
:
00:57:29,735 --> 00:57:31,405
She'll explore so many things that matter.
:
00:57:31,620 --> 00:57:33,080
And I guarantee you, you'll love it.
:
00:57:33,220 --> 00:57:34,040
Absolutely.
:
00:57:34,110 --> 00:57:35,990
Tony Tidbit: And listen,
she's, she kills it.
:
00:57:36,240 --> 00:57:40,450
But more importantly, I hope you
enjoyed today's episode, Beyond
:
00:57:40,450 --> 00:57:45,150
Bars, A New Vision for Corrections,
with Sheriff Peter Koutoujian.
:
00:57:45,170 --> 00:57:47,280
Chris P. Reed: We definitely want
to make sure we, as usual, we take
:
00:57:47,280 --> 00:57:52,500
this time to remind you of our
call to action, LESS, L E S S.
:
00:57:53,015 --> 00:57:59,155
The L stands for learn, educate yourself
as I have today on racial and cultural
:
00:57:59,155 --> 00:58:03,684
nuances and the ability to be visionary
in these areas and make sure that
:
00:58:03,685 --> 00:58:05,285
you impact your community positively.
:
00:58:05,555 --> 00:58:06,244
Absolutely.
:
00:58:06,244 --> 00:58:07,305
Tony Tidbit: Because our goal
:
00:58:07,505 --> 00:58:07,695
Chris P. Reed: is
:
00:58:07,734 --> 00:58:10,065
Tony Tidbit: to decrease
all forms of racism.
:
00:58:10,165 --> 00:58:12,925
So that's why this call to
action is very important.
:
00:58:13,135 --> 00:58:17,475
So after you learn, you have the
letter E since you now learned
:
00:58:17,475 --> 00:58:18,825
and become more enlightened.
:
00:58:19,045 --> 00:58:20,175
Now you should have more.
:
00:58:20,330 --> 00:58:25,540
Be more empathy, have more empathy
for your fellow colleague and friend.
:
00:58:25,540 --> 00:58:27,040
Going back to what Peter talked about.
:
00:58:27,390 --> 00:58:30,380
Understanding once you get
to meet individuals, now you
:
00:58:30,380 --> 00:58:31,840
can see their point of view.
:
00:58:33,130 --> 00:58:35,780
Sheriff Peter Koutoujian: And
S, S is to share your insights
:
00:58:35,780 --> 00:58:37,060
and to enlighten others.
:
00:58:37,640 --> 00:58:40,960
Uh, something that we've done today,
something that I find really interesting.
:
00:58:41,010 --> 00:58:42,490
I love learning about this stuff.
:
00:58:42,640 --> 00:58:43,660
I love being enlightened.
:
00:58:43,660 --> 00:58:46,650
So share your insights
to enlighten others.
:
00:58:46,950 --> 00:58:47,860
Tony Tidbit: Absolutely.
:
00:58:47,870 --> 00:58:49,860
And the final S is stop.
:
00:58:50,000 --> 00:58:54,589
We want to stop all forms of
discrimination as it comes up in our path.
:
00:58:54,820 --> 00:58:57,880
So if grandpa says something
that's inappropriate at the
:
00:58:57,890 --> 00:59:01,330
Thanksgiving table, you say,
grandpa, we don't believe in that.
:
00:59:01,595 --> 00:59:03,425
And you stop it right there.
:
00:59:03,655 --> 00:59:07,675
And if everyone, and this is something
that Chris and I, we know for a
:
00:59:07,675 --> 00:59:12,155
fact, this is the incorporating
less is in everyone's control.
:
00:59:12,475 --> 00:59:18,245
So if everyone incorporates less
L E S S we'll build a more fair.
:
00:59:18,670 --> 00:59:23,570
More understanding world, and we'll
be able to see the change that we want
:
00:59:23,570 --> 00:59:26,510
to see because less will become more.
:
00:59:26,920 --> 00:59:28,550
Sheriff Peter Koutoujian: And can
I say what I was going to say?
:
00:59:28,560 --> 00:59:29,680
Less is more, Tony.
:
00:59:29,699 --> 00:59:30,989
Less is more, right?
:
00:59:30,989 --> 00:59:32,710
Let's all do less to do more.
:
00:59:32,880 --> 00:59:37,119
Tony Tidbit: Buddy, that's why you want
a black executive perspective, right?
:
00:59:37,119 --> 00:59:39,010
Right, because you fall right within less.
:
00:59:40,570 --> 00:59:43,495
Chris P. Reed: You know, you
know, once again, Thank you, sir.
:
00:59:43,565 --> 00:59:45,775
We, we were, we were
blessed with your presence.
:
00:59:46,215 --> 00:59:50,944
We want to make sure that everyone in
earshot goes to the website, signs up for
:
00:59:50,944 --> 00:59:55,505
the newsletter, keep reaching out to us
to review, subscribe, listen to us, uh,
:
00:59:55,575 --> 00:59:57,675
wherever you get your podcasts, make sure.
:
00:59:57,845 --> 01:00:03,145
That you're giving us information that
we can take back and grow as a community.
:
01:00:04,215 --> 01:00:04,765
Tony Tidbit: Absolutely.
:
01:00:04,775 --> 01:00:08,564
And you can follow a black executive
perspective podcast on all our socials,
:
01:00:09,015 --> 01:00:15,494
X, TikTok, YouTube, LinkedIn, and
Facebook at a black exec for our fabulous
:
01:00:15,495 --> 01:00:19,845
guests, Sheriff Peter Koutoujian from
the Middlesex County, Massachusetts.
:
01:00:19,845 --> 01:00:20,805
We want to thank him.
:
01:00:21,060 --> 01:00:23,620
For the co host with the most Chris P.
:
01:00:23,680 --> 01:00:25,720
Reed, I'm Tony Tidbit.
:
01:00:25,950 --> 01:00:27,250
We talked about it.
:
01:00:27,340 --> 01:00:28,770
We learned about it.
:
01:00:28,860 --> 01:00:29,750
We love you.
:
01:00:29,830 --> 01:00:30,620
And guess what?
:
01:00:30,670 --> 01:00:31,060
We're out.
:
01:00:35,399 --> 01:00:37,970
BEP Narrator: A black
executive perspective.