WARNING: Real stories of domestic violence

In this episode we learn about how Steffen used dogs to manipulate vulnerable people. The LINK between interpersonal violence and animal cruelty is well known, and Steffen is just another example of how malicious and manipulative these abusers can be.

You can help us expand our reach by following, rating, and sharing our series. Together we can make a difference for both animal and the people who care for them.

Dr. G:

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Hi, and welcome to the

Animal Welfare Junction.

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This is your host, Dr.

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G, and our music is written

and produced by Mike Sullivan.

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Welcome to Season one State versus

Stefan Baldwin, episode eight.

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The link.

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This episode is very, um, how

do you say it's very full.

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Of cases, both of animal cruelty, some

of the bad things that he did against

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animals, but also of the interpersonal

violence that he inflicted on people.

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So definitely be careful with yourself.

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Be mindful.

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As you listen through this episode,

because definitely it can be triggering.

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Um, but very important

to share these stories.

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As we have always said, it's an i, it's

to let people know about the things

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that he did and to find ways to prevent

it from happening to other people.

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So we are going to kick off speaking

with Emma Rka about a dog named

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Gucci and his caretaker, Amanda.

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So, can you start by letting our

audience know a little bit about you?

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Like where, where you work, like

what do you do with animals?

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Emma Ripka: Um, I'm at a shelter

called Blue Chip Farm Animal

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Refuge in Dallas, Pennsylvania.

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We are a smaller no kill shelter, um, that

is pretty well known in the area 'cause we

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don't do not have many no kill shelters.

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Um, so a lot of the animals on our

property, if they cannot find homes,

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they just end up living with us until

either that comes along or until

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they eventually pass in our care.

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Uh, it's very rare for us to have to

euthanize anyone for behavioral reasons.

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Um, so I would say.

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Just about a hundred percent of our

animals either find a home with us

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or live with us until they pass.

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Dr. G:

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So would you say that that you guys

get a lot of animals that would be

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considered to have behavioral issues, or

is that something that's rare and then

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when it happens, you just manage it?

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Emma Ripka: Uh, a lot of our

animals have behavioral issues.

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Um, right now on the property,

I would say we have about 15

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that are very hard to adopt out.

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A few of those.

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We do not even post for adoption

anymore because our volunteers

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know how to safely handle them.

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They're happy where they're where

they're at, so it's no point in

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kind of messing that up for them.

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So they just end up

calling our shelter home.

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Dr. G:

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Good.

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I, I like that because

that's really responsible.

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You know, like I, I see a lot of

rescues that try to push these animals

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out and then they set the animals

for failure and they set, they set

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the people for failure as well.

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Emma Ripka: Yeah.

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We try to, um, like safety

is our number one priority.

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Um, so if we really feel like an

animal's not safe enough to adopt

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out, we do keep them in our care.

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If it gets to the point where the

behaviorals are so intense that

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nobody can safely handle them, that's

when the discussion is brought up.

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Um, but it has to be a pretty severe

situation for us to get to that point.

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Dr. G:

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So we're here because we're gonna

talk about you guys' interaction with

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Stefan Baldwin and, um, what ended

up being a big part of this case.

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So do you wanna start

just by telling us how.

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About the dog and how everything,

how everything started.

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Emma Ripka: Sure.

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Um, so Gucci was about a year, year

and a half when he went to Stephan.

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Um, prior to Stephan becoming

involved, he was removed from a

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bad situation, um, as a puppy.

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So he was only between like six to

nine months old when we got him.

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And because of his high energy, nobody

ever even asked to really meet him.

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And he had one failed adoption through

us, um, which was not his fault.

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And after being in a kennel for

so long and growing up in that

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environment, it causes a dog to.

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I have some issues usually

just pent up energy.

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Um, even though we take them out

every single day, I mean, it's

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just not enough for them to reach

their true like exercise goal.

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Um, so when Stephan was brought into

the picture, um, he offered to take

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Gucci and work with him and we said yes.

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Uh, and the only reason why Stephan

was brought into the picture

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was because he started dating

one of our volunteers, Amanda.

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Um, and when he finally

came up to visit us.

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That's when he offered to take Gucci and

we took him up on the offer because of

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what his status was, how involved Amanda

was with him and having trust there.

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Um, so we allowed him to take Gucci

back and the plan was for Stefan

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to work with him on some of his

issues, get that energy out, post him

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for adoption, um, find him a home.

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And if it didn't work out, it was always

supposed to be Gucci comes back to us.

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Um, for any reason Gucci

had to come back to us.

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It's in our adoption contract

for every single adopter, um,

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anyone we transfer animals to.

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We do not approve euthanization

that they have to come back to us.

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Um, so we kind of just move forward

with the plan because everyone,

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all parties agreed on it and

Gucci went to Ohio with them.

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Dr. G:

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Did Gucci have any issues with aggression

or was it just like his high energy?

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Emma Ripka: It was high energy

that was starting to turn

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into some kennel aggression.

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Um, he was having a harder time meeting

new people, which is extremely common with

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animals that spend an extended amount of

time at a shelter, especially when they're

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so young, when they first get there.

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Um, just growing up in that

environment can cause issues.

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Um, everyone.

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At the shelter was able to handle

him without any issues whatsoever.

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It was more the introduction to new

people that was becoming a little bit

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difficult and he was starting to show

some aggression towards the dogs.

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But that, again, like that was, a lot

of it was just related to how much

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time he had to spend in his kennel.

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Um, but severe issues, he

didn't have any like that.

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Um, it was just, we knew how to handle

it and he just needed a little bit

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more than we could provide and more

time outside of a kennel setting.

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Dr. G:

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And did he charge you

anything for this service?

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Emma Ripka: I do know that she gave him.

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I believe it was a thousand dollars

when she, when he took Gucci on.

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Um, to which I guess, uh, is

a charge, um, for his food.

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Any vet work that was needed out there?

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Um, the only difference with

Gucci was that he did not

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ask for more money from us.

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The longer he had Gucci like

he did with other people.

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Dr. G:

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How long total did he end up having?

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Gucci?

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Emma Ripka: He got Gucci,

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And Gucci was euthanized,

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Okay.

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Dr. G:

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So you mentioned that

he was dating Amanda.

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So Amanda ended up moving to

Ohio with him, is that right?

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Emma Ripka: Yes.

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Uh, she decided to move out with him.

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Um, they were dating for a few weeks or

months, um, before this decision was made.

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Uh, the plan was for Gucci to go

out with him in April and Amanda

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to fully move out there in May.

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And part of the reason why she made the

decision so quickly was because Stefan

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informed her that he was shooting a

pilot for a show on, I dunno if it was

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animal plan or whatever, but kind of

compared it to pit bull and parolees.

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Um, and needed help getting

his property ready before the

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crew got there and everything.

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So Amanda kind of sped up her process

and moved out there with him to

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help his property get to this point.

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Um, but that was all a lie.

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There was no show, there

was no crew coming.

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It.

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Was just a complete lie to her.

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Dr. G:

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So what, what was her communications

with you guys as far as like

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when she went there and she saw

that things were, were not it,

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Emma Ripka: so she stayed in

contact with us, um, most of

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the time that she was out there.

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Um, I think communication kind of slowed

down a little bit when she got back into.

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I don't know if it was alcohol or drugs

or whatever it was while she was with him.

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Um, but her communication

at the start was great.

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It was phenomenal out there.

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She loved it.

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Um, Stephan hid the truth

for a while from her.

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Um, so she didn't know it was a lie until

she was already there for a little bit.

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Um, that's when things

started taking a turn.

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And she did tell us that he

was being abusive towards her.

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And the one story that

always sticks out was.

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I, she was cleaning like the gutters or

something on top of the, like on the roof.

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And she was on a tall ladder and

he got mad at her for no reason and

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kicked the ladder out from under her.

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Um, that was the first time she

opened up about what was happening.

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Um, she didn't go into.

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Much more detail on the

full extent of abuse.

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Uh, she didn't wanna talk

about it when she came back.

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She didn't wanna share what happened.

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Um, she just said Gucci's safe

and eventually came back home.

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Um, she, I mean, she went out there

in May and she was back by August.

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Um, so really she only

spent the summer with 'em.

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Uh, but when she came back it wasn't, she

didn't really wanna talk about anything.

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Um.

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Which I wish that she would open

up a little bit more about it.

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I think if she was still here today

and saw this happening, she would

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absolutely open up about it more.

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Um, but at the time she definitely

didn't want to talk about it.

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Um, but when she came back home, she.

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Was no longer sober.

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Um, she was sober for seven years.

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Um, when she went out to Ohio, came

back, um, really could not care for

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herself, could not care for her animals.

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Made the decision to leave one of

her dogs with Stefan because he was a

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behavioral, um, west Highland Terrier

and was doing much better, she said,

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having more space to himself with Stefan.

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Um, so they made the agreement

for Mozart to stay out there.

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No idea whatever happened to Mozart.

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Um, but when she came

back, it was, it was rough.

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Um, she had a very hard final year, two

years of her life, um, wasn't able to care

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for her animals anymore, couldn't hold

a job or anything like that because of

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her addiction being back in full force.

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Um, and I actually ended up right when

she moved back with Stefan, she gave me

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one of her dogs that she could not, um.

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Uh, bring to where she was living.

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So I ended up having Brody, um, who

just recently passed away, um, from

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the time she got back until last year.

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Dr. G:

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It's, it's really sad and I spoke with.

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Another person that he was dating,

and it sounds like a pattern, right?

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Like he takes people who are vulnerable

and then isolates them, takes 'em away

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from their friends and family, um,

does all these lies, takes away their,

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their financial strength and everything

else, and then just starts playing

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game with them and causing problems

like alcoholism and drug addiction.

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So, you know, it just breaks people

down and then becomes abusive.

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I mean, a very clear pattern

of domestic violence.

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And then on the side,

the, the animal abuse.

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Emma Ripka: Yeah.

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And I know Amanda did have a

job while she was out there.

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She was a very good tattoo artist.

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Um, she did get a temporary,

uh, job out there in Ohio.

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Um, she only left it because she had

to leave the situation she was in.

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Um, but I do know at one point.

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He informed her that there was

no rent because the property was

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owned by the county or whatever.

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Um, and then the one day he freaked out on

her and asked her where the rent was and

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she didn't have a job at the time 'cause

she was helping him on the property.

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And because all of a sudden there was rent

and she was expected to pay all of it.

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Um, so it was.

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A very bizarre situation.

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Like it was just all lies.

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And I wish that she was here

today to ask questions because

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I'm sure there's so much more.

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Um, but what we do know, I mean

obviously just wasn't good at all.

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And I just wish that she, I don't know

if she didn't see the full extent of what

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he was doing to the animals because she

was a very, very big animal advocate.

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Um, so I would imagine if she

saw some extreme things, she

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would have said something unless.

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Something was said to her to

prevent her from doing that.

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Um, but I mean, I wish we could ask her

more questions, but I really do believe

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that if she saw something really bad,

she would've spoken up unless she feared

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for something to happen to her in return.

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'cause she was just, her whole

life revolved around animals.

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Dr. G:

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Yeah, it's, it's really sad the,

the path that he took her from.

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And even though he didn't do anything

directly to end her life, I think

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that, I mean, you can speak to it.

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Do you think that he was

responsible for what happened?

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Emma Ripka: I do.

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Um, I, I think everyone

involved in her life.

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Believes that if she never met

him, she would still be here.

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Um, she was doing so well.

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She had a great job.

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She had all her animals, great

relationships with her friends and family.

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Um, she was really doing well for

herself until this all happened.

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Um, so I, I personally, strongly

believe and put him at fault for

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what ultimately happened to her.

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Dr. G:

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So tell me about Gucci.

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What ended up happening?

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What was Gucci's story?

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Emma Ripka: Um, so what ended

up happening with Gucci was.

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We were told that he was adopted out,

and I'm actually still in contact with

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the person who originally adopted him.

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So that was not a lie.

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Um, he very, very quickly placed,

uh, Gucci into a new home that had

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other animals, which one of his

issues was not being good with other

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animals, um, which wouldn't have

been as big of an issue because.

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He did show us proof that Gucci

was playing with the other dogs his

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size at home or at Stefan's home.

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Um, so he was doing better with them,

but he placed 'em into a setting

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where it was another pit, which I

don't think he had an issue with.

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I'm not a hundred percent on that.

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But the woman also had

an elderly small dog.

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So what ultimately happened was

Gucci went after the small dog.

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I don't know if the other pit got

involved or what happened, but she had to

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immediately return, uh, Gucci to Stefan.

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And I don't blame her, but he also should

have never been put in that situation that

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it was the opposite of what he needed.

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Um, and it was just so quick.

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I feel like it was within a

month of him having Gucci,

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that he just adopted him out.

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Um, and at the time.

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I was 16, so it was, I didn't have a lot

of questions to ask or I didn't question

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him really at all because of my age, and

I just wasn't experienced enough to ask

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the questions that should have been asked.

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Um, but he came back to him, he said

again, at one point Gucci was adopted out

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and it didn't work out, and he texted at

one point, like Gucci had an incident.

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And his back and his care wouldn't

tell me what the incident was.

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Um, kind of got quiet after that.

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Joked about, did I ever tell you

the time Gucci, uh, bit my son?

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And I was like, no.

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And he shouldn't have been around kids.

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So I was a little frustrated when he

said and his, um, impact statement or

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whatever it's called, that uh, he would

never put his son in danger 'cause he.

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He did and there's proof in him texting

me that, um, and he said it was fine.

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He just bruised him, uh, and he found.

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A few days after that, he was like,

Hey, I finally found, uh, Gucci,

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a child-free, animal free home.

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It's perfect.

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They love him.

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And the date that he told me

he was adopted was actually

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the day that he euthanized him.

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So I, to this day, I have no

idea why he euthanized Gucci.

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I don't know if it was, it was because

of, just to get back at Amanda just to.

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We weren't sending him any more money,

even though he wasn't asking for it.

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Um, everything kind of

got quiet after that.

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And the biggest red flag looking back

at this whole situation was that he

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never sent us the adopter's information.

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Um.

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Which now I know that's a huge red flag.

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Um, I only happened to find the first

adopter because she commented on

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something Stephan posted saying how

well Gucci was doing the first day.

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Um, so that's how I got contact with her.

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But he never sent us the adopt

the other adoptions that happened.

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We never received paperwork on that.

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Um, so that's a little frustrating

looking back at the whole situation.

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He would send, say like, Gucci's

doing well and everything and

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act like it didn't happen.

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Um, I would reach out to him for

help of o other dogs in our care that

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needed out, um, that needed his help.

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Um, he would send back advice or there

was one dog, Ellie, that he was going back

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and forth with me on about considering

taking, thank God he never took her.

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Um.

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She actually ended up getting

adopted a few weeks after I sent

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him the message asking for help.

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Uh, so who knows what

would've happened to her.

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Um, but even when Amanda came back

and I got Brody from her, I would

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text him and be like, I'm having all

these behavioral issues with Brody.

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Like, can you please help?

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We'd go back and forth and he'd

gimme some advice or anything.

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And now looking back at it,

like, I don't know what he, he

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could have done something to her.

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She was deaf.

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A lot of issues.

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Um, so I don't honestly want to even know

what her life was like on, um, in Ohio.

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Um, but like, I just felt bad after

the fact being like I was asking one of

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her potential abusers or help with her.

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Um, so that was frustrating.

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That was super frustrating.

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But after that, with all of our dogs,

communication was normal with Stefan.

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And then I eventually got the call

from Detective Conroy, and that was

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the first time we found anything out.

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Dr. G:

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So that was the first time that

you find out that Gucci was dead?

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Emma Ripka: Yep.

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I remember it very vividly 'cause

I did not believe it at first.

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Uh, he actually messaged me on Facebook,

so I was like, oh, may, I don't know

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if this is a real person, whatever.

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So I actually called, um, I

don't know if he knows this.

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I called, um.

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His station or whatever, and I

was like, is this a real person?

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Like is this really

one of your detectives?

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And they said, yeah.

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So I called him back and

I remember it so vividly.

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I was just sitting on my bed in my

apartment and he just told me Gucci

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was euthanized and told me the date.

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And I was like, that's the date

Stephan told me he was adopted.

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So that was the first time I found

out anything or anyone at our

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shelter found out anything about it.

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It was, and at this point, Stefan, I

believe, was in California already,

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or on the process of going there.

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Dr. G:

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Okay.

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And by this time, had Amanda passed

already or was she still with us?

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Emma Ripka: Uh, she had passed,

yes, because he contacted me.

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I thought, I'm trying

to think of the dates.

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I believe he contacted me in 2019.

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Um, and Amanda passed in 2018.

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Dr. G:

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So looking back at, at all of this,

you know, all the, all the damage

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just in, in general as a rescue,

how has it affected you guys?

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Emma Ripka: It affected us a lot.

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Um.

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Unfortunately, um, or fortunately I guess,

uh, by the time this all came to light, a

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lot of the volunteers that were there with

Gucci had since moved on from the shelter.

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So it was all fresh people.

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Um, so they didn't really understand

the extent of it, um, as much as I did.

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And like the people who've been there

for a very long time understood it.

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Um.

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We really lost trust in trainers,

which is not a great thing when

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you're dealing with a no kill shelter

that has behavioral case dogs.

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Um, very hesitant to bring anyone involved

and if they, um, were involved, they were

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never left alone with one of our animals.

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A volunteer was always with them.

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Uh, we didn't have many come back, uh,

just because we just weren't comfortable

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with it, even if the trainer was amazing.

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It just really affected that whole

relationship that we had with really

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anybody, um, outside of the shelter.

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Uh, board and train was

an absolute no for us.

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Um, we were petrified

to send a dog anywhere.

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Um, that changed slightly, um,

December of last year because we had a

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volunteer who was working, um, to, to.

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To get a degree.

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And part of it was that she

had to work hand, hand in hand

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with the trainer and the board.

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And trainer is only an hour away from us.

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She would be there every week, checking

in on the dog, handling the dog.

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Um, so we said yes to that.

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And so far that experience has been

completely different than this.

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Absolutely phenomenal.

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Um, but it took until this

point to trust them and.

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I honestly don't know if we would

trust anybody else, just because we

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have a direct in with this trainer,

um, who's there to see everything,

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um, which comforted us a lot.

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But we still went back and forth on it

because, I mean, Stephan just ruined

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our view on trainers in general, which

sucks because you want to work with

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trainers, um, and where we are located.

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There's not many, and we're kind

of in the middle of nowhere.

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Uh, so there's not many trainers.

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There are no behavioralists at all.

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We'd have to drive at least two,

two and a half hours to get to one.

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Um, so taking the opportunities of

trainers locally, we should want

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to do, but we're still hesitant

because it just left a bad feeling

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and it probably will for a long time.

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Dr. G:

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He took away people's ability to

trust and people's hope, because there

403

are so many people that were hopeful

that their dog could be treated and

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then all of a sudden they couldn't.

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You know, because, uh, because

he wasn't a good trainer.

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He wasn't a trainer, period.

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Like he was afraid of dogs realistically.

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So it's, you know, he, yeah, he,

for such a pit bull advocate,

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he was pit bull's worst enemy.

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Emma Ripka: He really was.

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And it's so frustrating that

he did all this, and I really

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hope that it doesn't disappear.

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I really hope that it can, is continued

to be, um, like spoken about and mm-hmm.

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Even having some sort of law

come out of it to protect animals

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that go to these types of places.

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Um, I mean, I just hope that when he is

eventually out, it doesn't happen again.

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But I hope before he gets out, there's

more actions taken to prevent it

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from ever happening again, and that

no one stays quiet about him because

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his name should stay alive and.

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He needs to be talked about.

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And I just hope that it doesn't

disappear, that everyone needs to

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be aware and know the red flags of

a board and train that you're, you

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wanna work with, ask questions.

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Dr. G:

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Now that we have talked about Gucci's

story, let's bring back Jenny Falvey and

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discuss what happened with Gucci's story.

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Jenny Falvey: My name is Jenny Falvey.

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I am a Certified Behavior Consultant

through the C-C-P-D-T Certified

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Professional dog trainer through

C-C-P-D-T, um, Vic, uh, Victoria

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Stillwell, uh, trainer and, uh,

fear Free certified trainer.

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And I've been doing this about 37 years.

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And I initially started by mentoring under

people and worked my way up to learn as

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much as I could and then, um, sit for the

exam, uh, for both of the certifications.

434

I'm also the owner of Dog Smarts

Unleashed, and we're a positive

435

reinforcement, uh, facility,

uh, with four locations.

436

Uh, I'm also the president of

Animal Charity of Ohio, which is

437

the Humane Agency for Mahon County.

438

Dr. G:

439

With, with Gucci, in my opinion, this

was one of the most irresponsible ones

440

because I mean, every, every animal

that he became in contact with, it was

441

irresponsible the way that he handled it.

442

Mm-hmm.

443

But Gucci was a dog that actually had

known aggression issues, known aggression

444

with animals, known aggression with

women that, that dog did not know.

445

Mm-hmm.

446

And, you know, it, it's, this was

totally setting this dog up first,

447

unrealistic expectations to the group

that had Gucci who thought, oh, maybe

448

there is a chance because they were

ready to have Gucci be a sanctuary dog.

449

Right.

450

And, you know, spend the rest, uh,

you know, just at the sanctuary.

451

But yet he gives this unrealistic

expectation that I can make this

452

dog adoptable and then take, you

know, and, and not do anything.

453

Jenny Falvey: Right?

454

Yeah.

455

Oh yeah.

456

I mean, yeah, clearly this was

one that stood out more so than a

457

lot of the other ones because it

was so blatantly irresponsible.

458

So here's a dog, as you mentioned, has

all these aggression issues, um, in

459

particular to women and other animals.

460

And within 10 days of getting this dog

into his facility, he places the dog

461

in a foster home that is a woman and

another dog, and no less a female dog.

462

Um, and he Gucci immediately

attacks the other dog.

463

So now the dog gets returned.

464

Um, so just absolutely sets

this dog up for failure.

465

Uh, he also, you know, multiple

messages to the rescue basically.

466

Saying she's cured in this two

month period, like everything's

467

great, she's wonderful.

468

Um, but obviously it was not,

and there's no way you could

469

have safely addressed this, in my

opinion, in that amount of time.

470

In particular, having a second

incident that occurred, another

471

incident that occurs and then

you're trying to rebound from that.

472

So that one was shocking to me, uh, in

terms of how quick he placed that dog.

473

There was likely nothing

done to ensure that this dog

474

could enter that home safely.

475

You know, no, couldn't find anything

to show he had done any work.

476

And even if he had 10 days is

not long enough to even consider

477

placing a dog with those issues,

especially because they're thinking

478

of keeping the dog as a sanctuary dog.

479

So they knew the dog wasn't

easily placeable, if at all.

480

Dr. G:

481

Right.

482

And you know, they had, they had

Gucci from a really young age.

483

Jenny Falvey: Mm-hmm.

484

Dr. G:

485

And the aggression issues started

showing up at a really young age.

486

So, in, in your experience, is that

kind of say, does that give you an

487

idea as far as long or short term

progress, if any, with a dog that you

488

know, has behavior problems as a puppy?

489

Jenny Falvey: Right.

490

I mean, to me, when you're seeing those

behavior problems, it's sort of a, a

491

toss of a coin because I think sometimes

when you see these dogs that have issues

492

when they're young, you may be able to

get ahead of that work with them to know

493

they could be managed, not necessarily

these behaviors, quote unquote fixed.

494

But the other side of that is, is,

you know, why is the dog showing

495

that behavior at such a young age?

496

And is this just going to escalate

to a point where it's no longer,

497

you know, feasible for the dog

to live in a home with humans?

498

So I've seen dogs that have shown

behavior issues at a young age that have

499

been worked with extensively and have

made progress and been able to live out

500

a, a successful life with management.

501

But I have also seen puppies that

have shown these issues at a young

502

age and worsened very quickly.

503

And in, you know, the instances

in which I said it was

504

successful, these were owned dogs.

505

They were in a family home

in which people were there to

506

work with the dog and manage.

507

I think in a shelter setting, it is so

hard because you can't, it's very hard

508

to find a shelter with the resources

to be able to train these dogs and

509

work with them outside of the shelter.

510

And, you know, it, it's just not,

it's not, most shelters are not

511

fortunate enough to have that

type of revenue and resources.

512

And so I think looking at these

young dogs in a shelter setting,

513

if they're staying there, it's, I

would think it's likely gonna worsen.

514

I don't see that improving, unfortunately.

515

Dr. G:

516

And I think that that's, that's

what was really sad about Gucci, is

517

the fact that I think, personally,

I think Gucci's brain was broken.

518

Mm-hmm.

519

You know, and I don't know that that

Gucci's brain could be unbroken, but the,

520

the situation was arranged to, to allow,

to allow the dog to be a dog, right?

521

Mm-hmm.

522

And to more importantly, safely

for the dog and safely for

523

the people around the dog.

524

Yeah.

525

Not in a situation where, yeah, we're

going to be keeping this dog locked

526

up in a sanctuary, you know, all the

time with no exposure to anybody.

527

And then if somebody has to deal with

a dog, there's a bite risk or whatever.

528

Mm-hmm.

529

Like everything.

530

I think that, I think, and I don't

say this very often about sanctuaries,

531

because I have very, very strong

opinions about some sanctuaries.

532

Mm-hmm.

533

But I think that they actually had

the right idea and they had the, yeah.

534

The right execution of it.

535

And, and in the end it was their heart

in hoping that they could find a home.

536

Jenny Falvey: Right.

537

And I agree.

538

I think they recognized that this

wasn't going to be a, a safe placement.

539

And what, you know, aggravated me so

much about this is you took this dog

540

that grew up in the shelter system

and in 10 days you put him in a home.

541

He's never lived, you know,

he's not been in a home.

542

He doesn't know the nuances of living in

a home, let alone a new woman and a dog.

543

I mean, just there, that was one

of the most irresponsible and

544

amateur things I saw in these cases.

545

Yeah, I mean, you just, and, and to your

point about sanctuaries, you know, I

546

think I, I probably share some of the same

thoughts about that, but I think in, in

547

their organization, they really wanted to

do, they had hope that this was gonna be

548

different, you know, and, and I'm sure he.

549

Um, told them that, and I'm sure that

he, I mean, even in his messages to

550

them, how, you know, she was so great

and everything was so wonderful.

551

And so of course you build on that and

think, oh my gosh, all they wanted was

552

for Gucci to be okay and have a, a home.

553

You know?

554

I mean, ultimately that's

what it comes down to.

555

Dr. G:

556

Yeah.

557

And then what we see with a lot of these

dogs was the lying about, everything's

558

going great, everything's going fine.

559

And Gucci found a home and Gucci was dead.

560

Jenny Falvey: Yes.

561

I mean, such, there was so much

deceit and this was pervasive.

562

Um, and, and it was that, or

I'll just ignore completely.

563

I just won't respond to people.

564

As you saw in many of the cases

when they were checking in,

565

they just wouldn't respond.

566

So it, you know, to me there

was, you, you never had any

567

intention of helping these dogs.

568

You had intention of securing the

funding for what you were doing,

569

building your name at the cost

of these dogs' lives, you know?

570

Yeah.

571

And these are just the ones we know about,

572

Judith: The following interview includes

descriptions of domestic violence.

573

If you or someone you know is in

danger, contact the National Domestic

574

Abuse Hotline at 1-800-799-7233

575

DrG: Alright, we have here Meg Z and she

is going to discuss with us her part as

576

far as like everything that happened.

577

So thank you so much for being here.

578

Yeah, thank you.

579

So can you, let's, let's start,

I guess, at the beginning, like

580

when your relationship started,

581

Meg Zell: yeah.

582

Um, for context, I was in a relationship

that wasn't like super healthy.

583

Um, right before I met Stefan, I was

a hairstylist, um, and had been in

584

like yeah, an unhealthy relationship.

585

And, um, I had just adopted my

first dog that summer, Willie, um,

586

from Franklin County Dog Shelter.

587

And within like a month or two

months from adopting Willie, I had,

588

um, I saw another dog for adoption

that looked like maybe a long lost.

589

Dog, sibling of Willie's,

her name was Maya.

590

Um, and so I went to go view

her at Franklin County Dog

591

Shelter and she was super sick.

592

Um, ended up passing on adopting her.

593

Um, and after like a few weeks

she was like, adopted out,

594

returned, adopted out, returned.

595

And then, I don't know if you

remember this case, but um,

596

she ended up having distemper.

597

And then, um, Franklin County Dog

Shelter used that to euthanize

598

like over a hundred dogs.

599

Um, that like devastated me.

600

I felt like I.

601

Guilt.

602

Um, like if I would've adopted her,

maybe, you know, they wouldn't have

603

used that to euthanize so many dogs.

604

I had no experience in

animal rescue or anything.

605

Um, so that was like the first

time I realized that dogs were

606

being euthanized at shelters.

607

So, um, it threw me for a loop.

608

I kinda started, um.

609

Having some issues with hairstyling

and kind of like dipping into like

610

my first ever depressive episode.

611

So I took a pause from work and

during that time I was like starting

612

to get involved in animal rescue.

613

So that was like around September of 2016.

614

Um, and so, uh, I had gone to a rally.

615

Um, downtown Columbus.

616

Um, and Stephan was there,

um, and we made eye contact.

617

I heard him speak, um, and I

was like really impressed, you

618

know, he is a great speaker.

619

Um, so after that I wanted to

reach out to him to see like if he

620

had any like, uh, recommendations

of how I could get involved.

621

With animal rescue.

622

So I sent him an email, and at

this time my relationship that I

623

was currently in was like, um, not

great and like on the, on the fritz.

624

So, um, we emailed a few times and then

he was like, you know, I'd love to just

625

like, take you out to lunch or something.

626

So we met up, um, I think

a few times for lunch.

627

And during that course of time, you know,

he's, he's just such a good speaker.

628

Um, and, you know, I was dealing

with like all these emotions that

629

like I had never dealt with before.

630

And he also kind of talked about

how he's dealt with depression.

631

So like we clicked on

like that kind of part.

632

Um, and so over the course of like a

few weeks, uh, we had gotten to know

633

each other a little bit more and.

634

At that time, he had kind of convinced

me to move out of my apartment

635

with the boyfriend at the time,

break up with him and come live

636

and work with him in Marysville.

637

So I had been living in Clintonville, um,

and he kind of was like, you know, I think

638

you just need to get outta that situation.

639

And now, like, reflecting on it, it was

very much like the savior complex, right?

640

Like it was.

641

Uh, saving me Right.

642

From a terrible situation.

643

Right.

644

Um, so yeah, like one

day I just like kind of.

645

I was like, okay, I

guess I should do this.

646

Um, I mean, being around dogs,

that was like literally my dream.

647

I was like, okay.

648

Um, so yeah, one day with his Jeep,

he just came and packed up my stuff.

649

Um, looking back at it as well,

he tried to instigate a fight

650

with my ex-boyfriend at the time,

which I was just like, whoa, wild.

651

Um, now all of these things

are clicking like, you know.

652

So anyway, I forget exactly what

date it was that I officially

653

moved out there, but it was I think

late September, early October.

654

Um, and granted I had.

655

Zero experience in animal rescue.

656

So I was fresh.

657

I had no idea what to expect.

658

Um, you know, I thought of him, I

think like many other people, like

659

a true professional in the field.

660

Um, so I moved into this

like little farmhouse.

661

I'm not sure if you've been

there, if you went there at all.

662

Okay.

663

Um, really worn down.

664

Um.

665

There was a barn, there was

yards, like really worn down.

666

I had no idea.

667

You know, I was like, okay, maybe

is the, this is animal rescue.

668

Okay.

669

So from that point, um, I started

working for him more on the.

670

Dog training aspect.

671

So I was not involved anything with act.

672

Um, I more so was in charge of hanging out

with the house dogs and not the barn dogs.

673

Um, and you know, I was scheduling

like his appointments for like save

674

them dog training and doing all like

the customer service based stuff.

675

Um.

676

So if I can ask

677

DrG: you what, what was the difference as

far as the house dogs and the barn dogs?

678

Meg Zell: Yeah.

679

He kind of always mentioned that

the barn dogs were like, uh, the

680

harder to deal with dogs, right?

681

So like Remy was there.

682

Zach was there.

683

I think a few others maybe in and out.

684

Um.

685

Like I said, I just like went

with the flow and I had no idea.

686

So, uh, he said like he, that space was

more so like for the volunteers of act to

687

come and he, it was like his realm, like

he did everything with the barn dogs.

688

So I did mainly like,

yeah, house dogs, right?

689

Which were the dogs that were, I think.

690

Being boarded for like the board and

train with save them dog training.

691

I don't know.

692

Um, so anyway, during this time

I did a lot of like, you know,

693

the scheduling, um, and customer

service for Save Them Dog training.

694

Um, meanwhile, this entire time

I did not get paid one penny.

695

I didn't have to pay rent.

696

Um, and, uh, he paid

everything for food, but I.

697

Was never paid for any of my work.

698

Um, and he was gone all the time, uh,

whether it be appointments, um, or

699

just like running errands or, uh, I

honestly have no idea what he was doing.

700

Um, but he was always on the road,

always traveling and whatever.

701

So it was a lot of me with these

dogs without any previous experience.

702

Uh, you know, looking

back at it, I'm like.

703

Thankful I never got hurt.

704

Right?

705

Meg Zell: Really?

706

'cause I like really had no experience.

707

Um, but I just, I think there

was like some taken advantage of

708

just like my, like love for dogs.

709

Um, and like this place was so

run down, it was disgusting.

710

Um, I tried really hard to like

clean all the time and they were

711

like mice and yeah, it was just very

rundown and, and not good standards.

712

Um, and so.

713

Yeah, I, um,

714

our relationship ended up just like

being extremely, extremely toxic.

715

Um, ironically more toxic than the

previous relationship I was in.

716

So I think there is something with

like this pattern of like the savior.

717

Mentality and, but then you're

actually, the reality of the

718

experience is far worse than what

you had, what you were previously in.

719

Um,

720

DrG: from listening to what

you're saying, we hear about like.

721

Survivors of domestic violence.

722

That's that the perpetrator isolates them.

723

Oh, it sounds like, you know, he

took you away and then they take

724

away their financial strength.

725

Yeah.

726

So that you have to be

completely dependent.

727

Mm-hmm.

728

Uh, and then after a certain

period of time, then they become

729

emotionally or physically abusive.

730

Meg Zell: Yep.

731

Absolutely.

732

And like I, I'm from a large family.

733

I'm the youngest of eight kids.

734

Um, I originally was from Bell, fountain,

Ohio and then moved to Columbus.

735

So Marysville was where we were living.

736

It was right in the middle.

737

Um, and I was extremely,

uh, isolated from my family.

738

Um, and.

739

Truly, like looking back at

it, I, yeah, it was exactly

740

what you were talking about.

741

Um, and not to say like, I am

like this perfect person, right?

742

I was having my own issues.

743

Um, I was using alcohol to medicate.

744

Um, and I've been in therapy

for like eight years trying to

745

like, resolve a lot of stuff.

746

Um, and I didn't really.

747

Understand how.

748

Intense that situation was, um, until he

got sentenced and then there was a huge

749

weight that was just like lifted off.

750

Um, so yeah, I never, looking back

at it, really considered myself to

751

be a victim of domestic violence.

752

Looking at it.

753

Absolutely.

754

I mean, um, and it was less physical.

755

Uh, there were some weird physical

things, but it was more like, yeah,

756

that emotional, um, like gaslighting,

manipulation, the amount of times,

757

like he would just scream and yell, um,

and start fights for like no reason.

758

Um.

759

Yeah, it was, it was pretty intense.

760

Um, and I think I mentioned this

to James Renner, but like one of

761

the situations that stands out to

me the most of like, uh, a good

762

example of kind of what happened.

763

Um, Stephanie and I had been driving to a.

764

Client's house a few hours away and he

got really frustrated me at me for like

765

a scheduling conflict that happened.

766

Um, and it ended up being like a

really intense fight in the car.

767

And at one point in the fight he

told me to, I was in the passenger

768

seat, he told me to open the door so

he could push me out into traffic.

769

Wow.

770

Um, yeah, he also abandoned me in a

parking lot on Thanksgiving, um, because

771

I, we got in an argument and he had his

son with him and so he abandoned me and

772

I had to have my sister come pick me up.

773

Um.

774

So he is doing this, these things

to you in front of his child?

775

Yes.

776

Yeah.

777

Yeah.

778

And he, um, you know, he used his

previous girlfriend Shelby as a, um, a

779

person that he like, always pinned me

to, like, uh, his ex expectations of me

780

were directly related to what he, his

feelings towards Shelby in, in some way.

781

Um, so yeah.

782

All in all, it was just

a very unhealthy aspect.

783

Um, when it came to Remy specifically,

if you wanna go down that, um, I,

784

he kept everything very private.

785

I never saw personal text messages, never

saw personal emails or anything like that.

786

Um, and I think we all can tell how he

just is a pathological liar at this point.

787

Um, so.

788

If I can remember correctly,

uh, 'cause that was so long ago.

789

It was December 28th,

so just after Christmas.

790

And, um, his son was here, so I

also had to take care of his son,

791

um, when he was around as well.

792

And we had just gotten home from an event.

793

Um, and yeah, he, it was like late

at night and he, I, I believe,

794

or even the next day, I'm unsure.

795

Wh which it was.

796

But, um, he c basically came in

from the barn and said, oh my

797

gosh, Remy attacked a dog and, uh,

attacked Zach and all this stuff.

798

And I just was like, okay, I like

to, I didn't know anything, so I took

799

his word for, you know, like, okay.

800

Remy must've been a really aggressive dog.

801

Um, I had only been around

Remy maybe like twice.

802

Um, I took a picture of him and

I think I was around like him.

803

One other time.

804

Um, so

805

DrG: Remy was

806

Meg Zell: always outside in

807

DrG: the baring from the get go?

808

Yes.

809

Meg Zell: Yep.

810

Yeah.

811

Um, always.

812

Um, and now like of course I have

so much like shame and guilt and,

813

you know, all that stuff for like,

not knowing any better, um, right.

814

Like goodness.

815

Um, but yeah, so he told me the same

story that he told everybody else.

816

Um, I had no idea who.

817

Um, you know, any of the previous

rescues were of any of the dogs that

818

he had, I had no contact with them.

819

So I had no way of communicating.

820

Um, I.

821

About like what happened.

822

So I had no idea he was lying to people.

823

I had no idea.

824

Like he didn't tell the rescues

of the fight that happened,

825

like, or, or whatever happened.

826

Um, so it kind of just

went on like no big deal.

827

That's kind of like how he had it.

828

He was like, oh yeah,

like Remy was dangerous.

829

So like, we need to put him down.

830

And I was like, okay.

831

So did he kill Zach or what's

the other, did you ever see

832

DrG: the dog?

833

Meg Zell: No, no, no, no, no.

834

Um, and he's, I remember he specifically

told me to not go to the barn.

835

Um.

836

I remember him mentioning that

it was like a horri, same thing.

837

He kind of said to the public when

he came out with everything, that

838

it was just like the most horrific

scene he's ever experienced.

839

So I have no idea.

840

Um, and I have no idea

what happened to Zach.

841

Uh, yeah, the only thing I can

think of I've been like really

842

trying to rack my brain around is.

843

He, um, he collected like a lot of

stuff, like, it was like the outside

844

property of the house had a lot of

like garbage and all this stuff.

845

And we took things to the dump because

I was like trying to clean it and I

846

was like, well, this is disgusting.

847

Um, and so he went to

the dump pretty often.

848

So I've been like trying to

like look back and think if they

849

haven't found Zach's body like.

850

I think he might've been dumped, you

know, and like, this is totally suspicion.

851

I don't know the answer.

852

Um, but he did frequent the dump often.

853

Um, so yeah, he told me the same

thing he told everybody else, so,

854

DrG: I think I was the only person that

he didn't tell exactly the same story.

855

Okay.

856

'cause when he brought the,

when he brought Remy in.

857

He said that, um, that Remy had killed

Zach and that Remy was a dangerous

858

dog, so he had to be euthanized,

but he, he just said like, yeah,

859

you know, Zach's a little asshole.

860

And he was loose and he was like.

861

Taunting Remy from outside of the cage,

and Remy was able to break through the

862

cage and just grab them and kill them.

863

So no blood, no blood bath,

no disaster, no nothing.

864

Just, oh, dog got loose

and killed the other dog.

865

And then that was it.

866

Wow.

867

And you know, because he's a dangerous

dog, he has to be euthanized and

868

and I believed him because he was

the humane officer and like, I

869

don't have any reason to doubt it.

870

Right, right.

871

So, but, but yeah, it's, it's really.

872

It was really interesting to

me when I started hearing about

873

this whole, it was a blood bath.

874

There was all these injuries, and then

he's him saying that Remy was like so

875

injured, that that was also part of

the reason why he had to be euthanized.

876

When the dog had no injuries,

no blood on him, no nothing.

877

He had like a little scratch on his noses.

878

Wow.

879

Meg Zell: Yeah, and I, I feel

like that scratch could have

880

come from anywhere, you know?

881

DrG: If he was outside

all the time in the barn.

882

I mean, just trying to dig underneath

the cages, just trying to anything.

883

So, I mean, there, it wasn't anything

that I was suspicious that was

884

from a bite or anything like that.

885

Right, right.

886

But

887

yeah,

888

DrG: but again, he didn't say

that the dog was, you know, he, he

889

didn't paint to me the traumatic

event that he told everybody else.

890

Meg Zell: Right.

891

So,

892

DrG: yeah.

893

Meg Zell: Yeah.

894

Um, it's been so difficult to, 'cause

I feel like that experience with

895

Stefan has made me have a hard time

understanding of what reality is.

896

And I think when anyone's in the, the

same space as somebody who lies so much,

897

it's like you're questioning yourself.

898

Um, and that's really messed

with me for a long time.

899

I, um, I didn't participate in the trial.

900

Even though, um, I, there was part

of me that really wanted to speak

901

up, but, um, I was in, I've been

struggling with like some severe

902

depressions over the last few winters.

903

Um, and, um, I was in a really rough

spot, um, to the point where I don't

904

think I would've been able to like, speak

coherently without like falling apart.

905

Um, so I.

906

I chose not to participate.

907

Um, but I can't tell you how

thankful I am for everybody who

908

did participate because, uh, yeah.

909

Um, it's, yeah, I think he's

getting what he deserves.

910

Absolutely.

911

And I also think part of this,

you know, I wanted it to be.

912

Like this specific case all about

the dogs, and it would've been

913

really hard for me to separate, you

know, what he did to the dogs versus

914

like the abuse he gave to females.

915

So that was like, I didn't want

to like, you know, sidetrack

916

and, and to this realm.

917

But yeah.

918

DrG: So you mentioned before,

uh, and, and about what.

919

How you say what ended the relationship?

920

Yeah.

921

So how did that, how did, how

did everything come to an end?

922

Meg Zell: Yeah.

923

You know, I started having like

suspicions of just like, you know,

924

it wasn't a great relationship.

925

Um, and we fought all the time and, um.

926

It was just one of those situations

where I just was starting to

927

feel like extremely hopeless.

928

So at that point, after had, having

been isolated from my family, you

929

know, I started reaching out to my

family, um, and talking to friends.

930

Um, I.

931

And, uh, yeah, the, I think he

had an issue with me because

932

I stood up to him a lot.

933

Um, so, uh, yeah, we really just didn't

see eye to eye on a lot of things.

934

Um, and so I think we both

mutually were like, this is just

935

not gonna work out kind of thing.

936

Um, and like looking back, I know

I probably try to like save the

937

relationship even though I don't

even think I had like, true, like.

938

Feelings necessarily, you know?

939

Mm-hmm.

940

Um, but yeah, uh, I moved out

early March, um, and I remember I.

941

My mom and my sister came and got me.

942

And, um, talking to my sister, uh,

she mentioned like the second all

943

of my stuff and got into her car.

944

She like gagged at the smell.

945

Um, and it was just like a very just

unclean kind of gross situation.

946

Um, but I moved.

947

Out.

948

Um, and also I wanted to bring this

up because this kind of shows how

949

he was with like money in general.

950

I think.

951

Um,

952

I, like I mentioned, I had never

been paid by him, um, but I was

953

previously a hairstylist, so I got a

tax return and he convinced me to put

954

my tax return in his bank account.

955

Huh.

956

Um, and at the end of our relationship

I was asking for that money back.

957

That was literally all the

money I had was the tax return.

958

Um, and you know, he got really,

um, intense when I asked for that

959

money back so much so that I had

to like threaten like a lawyer.

960

To get it back.

961

So finally he met me at like a coffee shop

and gave me the money back, but that just

962

kind of showcases how he was with money.

963

Um, and he kind of made it seem like,

you know, gosh, if somebody just could

964

like invest in me and like give me

money and all this stuff, then like, you

965

know, he was always searching for that.

966

Um, if that makes sense.

967

But, uh, I had.

968

Been on a phone call with my friend,

um, who had lived in Seattle and

969

mentioned to her like kind of

where I was at, and she, she was

970

like, do you just need to get away?

971

And I was like, yes, I would

like to get away, please.

972

Um, so at that time we decided, um,

I decided that I was just gonna move

973

to Seattle and kind of start fresh.

974

Um, one of the best decisions

I've made, I will say,

975

DrG: How surprised were you to find out

about all this stuff that he had done?

976

Because, you know, it's

like we hear about, like you

977

said, the one mistake, right?

978

And it's like, okay, you know, somebody

can make one mistake and whatever, but

979

this is like a pattern of activity.

980

Yeah.

981

Cruelty.

982

Meg Zell: I mean, um, physically sick.

983

Um, I, yeah, I couldn't believe

I was in such close contact with

984

somebody who, um, was like that.

985

Uh, and you know, I think it shows

the skill that he has of, of lying.

986

Um.

987

So, yeah, I think the ironic part of all

of this is like my original intent to

988

be an animal rescue was something that

the Franklin County Dog Shelter did.

989

And um, it's just ironic that I ended

up being in a situation where this

990

guy was doing something similar.

991

DrG: I know that Amanda had contacted you.

992

Yeah.

993

Was that while you were in a

relationship or was that after?

994

Meg Zell: That was after.

995

Yeah.

996

She had sent me a, um, a few messages.

997

Um, we didn't really talk that much,

but we befriended each other on Facebook

998

and she sent me a few messages, kind

of just like I wanted to warn you.

999

Um.

00:55:27,122 --> 00:55:33,962

Uh, and, um, you know, asking if he kind

of turned psycho like he did with her.

00:55:34,622 --> 00:55:39,392

Um, and so we were able to exchange

and, um, yeah, it, it broke my

00:55:39,392 --> 00:55:41,612

heart, um, to hear of her passing.

00:55:41,612 --> 00:55:41,642

I.

00:55:42,677 --> 00:55:45,257

And it also breaks my heart.

00:55:45,317 --> 00:55:46,097

Um, with Shelby.

00:55:46,097 --> 00:55:49,007

I don't, I never knew her

personally obviously, so I don't

00:55:49,007 --> 00:55:50,477

wanna speak too much on that.

00:55:50,537 --> 00:55:57,497

But the way in which he used her to

compare, like our relationship, um,

00:55:57,497 --> 00:56:00,377

she seemed like a really special human.

00:56:00,497 --> 00:56:02,387

Um, and just.

00:56:03,287 --> 00:56:08,627

Having experienced what I experienced

in six months, I really, really feel for

00:56:08,627 --> 00:56:12,227

any woman who was around him for longer.

00:56:12,917 --> 00:56:19,817

Um, so yeah, I can only imagine, um, the

trauma and abuse that these women, I.

00:56:20,312 --> 00:56:20,882

Had.

00:56:21,002 --> 00:56:27,872

Um, and so when all of this came to

light and then all these new suspicions

00:56:27,872 --> 00:56:31,922

with, you know, the Mara Murray and

all this stuff, I felt just like this

00:56:31,922 --> 00:56:36,092

need to like speak up to let people

know that, you know, he was doing these

00:56:36,092 --> 00:56:42,212

horrible things to dogs, obviously like

wild, but he was also abusing women.

00:56:43,502 --> 00:56:43,772

DrG: Yeah.

00:56:43,772 --> 00:56:47,132

And there is a link between animal

cruelty and interpersonal violence,

00:56:47,192 --> 00:56:52,682

and Absolutely people will use animals

within domestic violence situations.

00:56:52,952 --> 00:56:53,162

Yeah.

00:56:53,252 --> 00:56:57,932

Um, so, you know, it, it,

he fits a profile, right?

00:56:59,402 --> 00:57:02,852

Meg Zell: Uh, I can only imagine, I.

00:57:03,107 --> 00:57:09,467

Um, like other women who, uh, have dated

him and what they're going through.

00:57:09,467 --> 00:57:13,037

So I just wanted to be a voice for

that and wanted to be a voice for,

00:57:13,877 --> 00:57:18,167

um, unfortunately the dogs that

I was around, I have no idea what

00:57:18,167 --> 00:57:24,527

happened to any of those dogs, which

is like, it really bothers me so much.

00:57:24,607 --> 00:57:24,937

. Yeah.

00:57:24,937 --> 00:57:25,897

And I wanna like.

00:57:26,872 --> 00:57:31,822

Make it clear like he

preys on vulnerable people.

00:57:32,122 --> 00:57:35,182

So I was in a really vulnerable spot.

00:57:35,482 --> 00:57:38,602

Um, I was not dealing with stuff.

00:57:38,602 --> 00:57:42,472

I was starting to have

depression, um, and.

00:57:44,077 --> 00:57:50,647

I think he latches onto dogs

who are vulnerable and women

00:57:50,977 --> 00:57:52,447

who are vulnerable as well.

00:57:52,447 --> 00:57:55,927

So I wanted to make it clear, like I,

it's not like I was, I've been like

00:57:55,927 --> 00:57:58,027

this perfect person and all the stuff.

00:57:58,027 --> 00:57:59,707

I was definitely dealing with some stuff.

00:57:59,827 --> 00:58:03,637

Um, but I think he, he

takes advantage of that.

00:58:04,777 --> 00:58:05,017

DrG: Yeah.

00:58:05,017 --> 00:58:06,037

I think that.

00:58:06,907 --> 00:58:11,047

Some people wonder about not

just you, but other victims

00:58:11,047 --> 00:58:12,997

that did not come in to speak.

00:58:12,997 --> 00:58:18,367

Yeah, and in my experience, just from

what I'm, what I see is that there

00:58:18,367 --> 00:58:21,037

is that concern of, I'm gonna come

in, I'm gonna speak, I'm gonna be

00:58:21,037 --> 00:58:22,567

vulnerable, and nothing's gonna happen.

00:58:22,567 --> 00:58:25,897

And then people are going to

look at me differently, right?

00:58:25,957 --> 00:58:29,617

And I'm going to be this

victim or whatever, and then

00:58:29,617 --> 00:58:30,757

he's just gonna go free.

00:58:31,387 --> 00:58:35,947

And once he is sentenced though, and you

know that he's being held responsible

00:58:35,947 --> 00:58:39,457

for his actions and he's put away

so he cannot hurt anybody else, it

00:58:39,457 --> 00:58:41,827

does bring some degree of freedom.

00:58:42,322 --> 00:58:44,122

Meg Zell: Absolutely in validation.

00:58:44,242 --> 00:58:49,642

Um, because I think he was so good

at manipulation where he made, I'm

00:58:49,642 --> 00:58:54,142

pretty sure any woman who's been

around him, um, uh, can attest to this.

00:58:54,142 --> 00:58:57,382

Like he made us believe

that we were the issue.

00:58:57,772 --> 00:59:01,462

So, like I said, it's really

bent my understanding of reality.

00:59:01,582 --> 00:59:02,182

Um.

00:59:03,127 --> 00:59:06,607

And, and again, not to say

I've never had an issue, of

00:59:06,607 --> 00:59:07,987

course, like no one's perfect.

00:59:08,557 --> 00:59:13,477

Um, but when it came to that specific

relationship, I mean, yeah, he's a

00:59:13,477 --> 00:59:19,447

very skilled, skilled, um, con artist.

00:59:20,467 --> 00:59:27,277

So absolutely this, this gave lots

of validation, um, and support.

00:59:27,277 --> 00:59:29,317

I like reconnected with a lot of people.

00:59:29,767 --> 00:59:30,457

Um.

00:59:31,282 --> 00:59:33,862

Because I think once this

trial was happening, I just

00:59:33,862 --> 00:59:35,182

wanted to run so far away.

00:59:35,212 --> 00:59:42,172

I just like it, it brought up so many

feelings of like abuse, um, and I was

00:59:42,172 --> 00:59:47,812

just like, I wish I like looking back, I

wish I would've been able to participate,

00:59:47,812 --> 00:59:50,332

but I just don't think that was my time.

00:59:50,482 --> 00:59:52,972

I think this is now my

time to speak up, you know?

00:59:53,512 --> 00:59:55,942

Um, so thank you so much for having me.

00:59:56,482 --> 00:59:58,282

DrG: Yeah, no, thank you for sharing.

00:59:58,312 --> 01:00:03,952

You know, it's when, when I gave my

victim statement, it was, I didn't

01:00:03,952 --> 01:00:05,782

realize how hard it was, right?

01:00:05,782 --> 01:00:05,842

Yeah.

01:00:05,842 --> 01:00:10,012

Because I'm always very objective and

I work with animal cruelty and neglect.

01:00:10,012 --> 01:00:13,192

So the whole time I'm

just focused on that.

01:00:13,552 --> 01:00:18,562

But then the victim impact statement

was about me at a personal level,

01:00:19,042 --> 01:00:22,102

and I thought I was okay, and

then I got up there and I was not.

01:00:22,132 --> 01:00:22,462

Okay.

01:00:22,822 --> 01:00:25,882

Yeah, and, and you know, it's.

01:00:26,362 --> 01:00:30,652

It makes me realize just

how difficult it is Yes.

01:00:30,652 --> 01:00:32,872

To, to speak up and speak out.

01:00:32,962 --> 01:00:36,412

So I'm really thankful

that, that you are here.

01:00:36,832 --> 01:00:37,252

Gosh.

01:00:37,372 --> 01:00:37,762

Meg Zell: Yeah.

01:00:37,912 --> 01:00:42,082

And I'm so thankful for everybody to

have the courage, um, to stand up and I.

01:00:43,822 --> 01:00:44,212

Yeah.

01:00:44,302 --> 01:00:47,302

Like, goodness, it, it

takes so much courage.

01:00:47,422 --> 01:00:48,112

So, yeah.

01:00:48,367 --> 01:00:48,657

DrG: Yeah.

01:00:48,982 --> 01:00:50,542

Well, thank you so much.

01:00:50,602 --> 01:00:53,662

And again, I'm glad that you're,

that you're doing better and

01:00:53,662 --> 01:00:55,432

you're in a i in a better place.

01:00:55,582 --> 01:00:55,732

Yes.

01:00:55,732 --> 01:00:58,192

And yeah, little by

little but little forward.

01:00:58,882 --> 01:00:59,152

Yeah,

01:00:59,902 --> 01:00:59,903

Dr. G:

01:00:59,903 --> 01:01:05,454

The link between human violence and animal

violence is real, and a lot of people that

01:01:05,694 --> 01:01:08,124

harm animals, harm people, and vice versa.

01:01:08,484 --> 01:01:12,384

So, very important to speak, and I

wanna say thanks to the people that

01:01:12,494 --> 01:01:14,034

spoke on today's episode about it.

01:01:14,544 --> 01:01:18,474

And again, if you or anyone you

know is in need of help, please

01:01:18,474 --> 01:01:23,264

contact the National Domestic

01:01:25,704 --> 01:01:27,864

Thank you for listening,

and thank you for caring.