WARNING: Real stories of domestic violence

In this episode we learn about how Steffen used dogs to manipulate vulnerable people. The LINK between interpersonal violence and animal cruelty is well known, and Steffen is just another example of how malicious and manipulative these abusers can be.

You can help us expand our reach by following, rating, and sharing our series. Together we can make a difference for both animal and the people who care for them.

Dr. G:

2

00:00:19,616 --> 00:00:21,745

Hi, and welcome to the

Animal Welfare Junction.

3

00:00:21,745 --> 00:00:22,765

This is your host, Dr.

4

00:00:22,765 --> 00:00:25,195

G, and our music is written

and produced by Mike Sullivan.

5

00:00:25,555 --> 00:00:29,965

Welcome to Season one State versus

Stefan Baldwin, episode eight.

6

00:00:30,055 --> 00:00:30,745

The link.

7

00:00:31,315 --> 00:00:35,280

This episode is very, um, how

do you say it's very full.

8

00:00:36,040 --> 00:00:41,350

Of cases, both of animal cruelty, some

of the bad things that he did against

9

00:00:41,350 --> 00:00:46,210

animals, but also of the interpersonal

violence that he inflicted on people.

10

00:00:46,540 --> 00:00:49,390

So definitely be careful with yourself.

11

00:00:49,390 --> 00:00:50,110

Be mindful.

12

00:00:50,515 --> 00:00:53,575

As you listen through this episode,

because definitely it can be triggering.

13

00:00:54,055 --> 00:00:56,545

Um, but very important

to share these stories.

14

00:00:56,575 --> 00:01:01,105

As we have always said, it's an i, it's

to let people know about the things

15

00:01:01,105 --> 00:01:05,485

that he did and to find ways to prevent

it from happening to other people.

16

00:01:05,875 --> 00:01:12,025

So we are going to kick off speaking

with Emma Rka about a dog named

17

00:01:12,025 --> 00:01:14,785

Gucci and his caretaker, Amanda.

18

00:01:15,975 --> 00:01:20,265

So, can you start by letting our

audience know a little bit about you?

19

00:01:20,295 --> 00:01:23,590

Like where, where you work, like

what do you do with animals?

20

00:01:25,050 --> 00:01:27,180

Emma Ripka: Um, I'm at a shelter

called Blue Chip Farm Animal

21

00:01:27,180 --> 00:01:29,220

Refuge in Dallas, Pennsylvania.

22

00:01:29,550 --> 00:01:34,590

We are a smaller no kill shelter, um, that

is pretty well known in the area 'cause we

23

00:01:34,590 --> 00:01:37,020

don't do not have many no kill shelters.

24

00:01:37,410 --> 00:01:41,700

Um, so a lot of the animals on our

property, if they cannot find homes,

25

00:01:41,700 --> 00:01:45,300

they just end up living with us until

either that comes along or until

26

00:01:45,509 --> 00:01:47,009

they eventually pass in our care.

27

00:01:47,250 --> 00:01:51,539

Uh, it's very rare for us to have to

euthanize anyone for behavioral reasons.

28

00:01:51,780 --> 00:01:52,740

Um, so I would say.

29

00:01:54,075 --> 00:01:57,675

Just about a hundred percent of our

animals either find a home with us

30

00:01:57,675 --> 00:01:59,414

or live with us until they pass.

31

00:02:00,255 --> 00:02:00,256

Dr. G:

32

00:02:00,256 --> 00:02:03,495

So would you say that that you guys

get a lot of animals that would be

33

00:02:03,495 --> 00:02:06,705

considered to have behavioral issues, or

is that something that's rare and then

34

00:02:06,705 --> 00:02:07,890

when it happens, you just manage it?

35

00:02:09,150 --> 00:02:11,640

Emma Ripka: Uh, a lot of our

animals have behavioral issues.

36

00:02:11,700 --> 00:02:14,640

Um, right now on the property,

I would say we have about 15

37

00:02:14,640 --> 00:02:16,200

that are very hard to adopt out.

38

00:02:16,200 --> 00:02:17,010

A few of those.

39

00:02:17,280 --> 00:02:20,190

We do not even post for adoption

anymore because our volunteers

40

00:02:20,190 --> 00:02:21,360

know how to safely handle them.

41

00:02:21,360 --> 00:02:24,720

They're happy where they're where

they're at, so it's no point in

42

00:02:24,720 --> 00:02:26,579

kind of messing that up for them.

43

00:02:26,610 --> 00:02:28,260

So they just end up

calling our shelter home.

44

00:02:28,829 --> 00:02:28,831

Dr. G:

45

00:02:28,831 --> 00:02:29,130

Good.

46

00:02:29,160 --> 00:02:31,230

I, I like that because

that's really responsible.

47

00:02:31,230 --> 00:02:34,829

You know, like I, I see a lot of

rescues that try to push these animals

48

00:02:34,829 --> 00:02:38,310

out and then they set the animals

for failure and they set, they set

49

00:02:38,310 --> 00:02:39,900

the people for failure as well.

50

00:02:40,860 --> 00:02:41,040

Emma Ripka: Yeah.

51

00:02:41,040 --> 00:02:43,650

We try to, um, like safety

is our number one priority.

52

00:02:43,920 --> 00:02:46,650

Um, so if we really feel like an

animal's not safe enough to adopt

53

00:02:46,650 --> 00:02:48,180

out, we do keep them in our care.

54

00:02:48,725 --> 00:02:51,785

If it gets to the point where the

behaviorals are so intense that

55

00:02:51,785 --> 00:02:55,175

nobody can safely handle them, that's

when the discussion is brought up.

56

00:02:55,445 --> 00:02:58,835

Um, but it has to be a pretty severe

situation for us to get to that point.

57

00:02:59,915 --> 00:02:59,916

Dr. G:

58

00:02:59,916 --> 00:03:04,865

So we're here because we're gonna

talk about you guys' interaction with

59

00:03:04,865 --> 00:03:10,205

Stefan Baldwin and, um, what ended

up being a big part of this case.

60

00:03:10,595 --> 00:03:14,135

So do you wanna start

just by telling us how.

61

00:03:15,030 --> 00:03:18,960

About the dog and how everything,

how everything started.

62

00:03:19,650 --> 00:03:19,980

Emma Ripka: Sure.

63

00:03:20,040 --> 00:03:24,240

Um, so Gucci was about a year, year

and a half when he went to Stephan.

64

00:03:24,540 --> 00:03:27,750

Um, prior to Stephan becoming

involved, he was removed from a

65

00:03:27,750 --> 00:03:30,210

bad situation, um, as a puppy.

66

00:03:30,210 --> 00:03:33,270

So he was only between like six to

nine months old when we got him.

67

00:03:33,525 --> 00:03:37,065

And because of his high energy, nobody

ever even asked to really meet him.

68

00:03:37,095 --> 00:03:41,265

And he had one failed adoption through

us, um, which was not his fault.

69

00:03:41,445 --> 00:03:44,445

And after being in a kennel for

so long and growing up in that

70

00:03:44,445 --> 00:03:46,125

environment, it causes a dog to.

71

00:03:46,200 --> 00:03:50,010

I have some issues usually

just pent up energy.

72

00:03:50,220 --> 00:03:52,650

Um, even though we take them out

every single day, I mean, it's

73

00:03:52,650 --> 00:03:55,829

just not enough for them to reach

their true like exercise goal.

74

00:03:56,130 --> 00:04:01,740

Um, so when Stephan was brought into

the picture, um, he offered to take

75

00:04:01,740 --> 00:04:03,780

Gucci and work with him and we said yes.

76

00:04:04,020 --> 00:04:06,420

Uh, and the only reason why Stephan

was brought into the picture

77

00:04:06,420 --> 00:04:09,780

was because he started dating

one of our volunteers, Amanda.

78

00:04:10,140 --> 00:04:13,140

Um, and when he finally

came up to visit us.

79

00:04:13,320 --> 00:04:18,450

That's when he offered to take Gucci and

we took him up on the offer because of

80

00:04:18,450 --> 00:04:23,730

what his status was, how involved Amanda

was with him and having trust there.

81

00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:29,430

Um, so we allowed him to take Gucci

back and the plan was for Stefan

82

00:04:29,430 --> 00:04:33,750

to work with him on some of his

issues, get that energy out, post him

83

00:04:33,750 --> 00:04:36,570

for adoption, um, find him a home.

84

00:04:37,080 --> 00:04:41,280

And if it didn't work out, it was always

supposed to be Gucci comes back to us.

85

00:04:41,610 --> 00:04:44,610

Um, for any reason Gucci

had to come back to us.

86

00:04:44,610 --> 00:04:47,550

It's in our adoption contract

for every single adopter, um,

87

00:04:47,550 --> 00:04:49,230

anyone we transfer animals to.

88

00:04:49,260 --> 00:04:52,290

We do not approve euthanization

that they have to come back to us.

89

00:04:52,620 --> 00:04:57,270

Um, so we kind of just move forward

with the plan because everyone,

90

00:04:57,270 --> 00:05:01,200

all parties agreed on it and

Gucci went to Ohio with them.

91

00:05:02,265 --> 00:05:02,266

Dr. G:

92

00:05:02,266 --> 00:05:06,600

Did Gucci have any issues with aggression

or was it just like his high energy?

93

00:05:07,485 --> 00:05:09,615

Emma Ripka: It was high energy

that was starting to turn

94

00:05:09,615 --> 00:05:11,475

into some kennel aggression.

95

00:05:11,505 --> 00:05:16,395

Um, he was having a harder time meeting

new people, which is extremely common with

96

00:05:16,395 --> 00:05:20,595

animals that spend an extended amount of

time at a shelter, especially when they're

97

00:05:20,595 --> 00:05:22,335

so young, when they first get there.

98

00:05:22,605 --> 00:05:25,125

Um, just growing up in that

environment can cause issues.

99

00:05:25,365 --> 00:05:27,015

Um, everyone.

100

00:05:27,200 --> 00:05:30,590

At the shelter was able to handle

him without any issues whatsoever.

101

00:05:30,590 --> 00:05:33,830

It was more the introduction to new

people that was becoming a little bit

102

00:05:33,830 --> 00:05:37,820

difficult and he was starting to show

some aggression towards the dogs.

103

00:05:38,030 --> 00:05:42,260

But that, again, like that was, a lot

of it was just related to how much

104

00:05:42,260 --> 00:05:43,850

time he had to spend in his kennel.

105

00:05:44,150 --> 00:05:47,990

Um, but severe issues, he

didn't have any like that.

106

00:05:48,230 --> 00:05:51,260

Um, it was just, we knew how to handle

it and he just needed a little bit

107

00:05:51,260 --> 00:05:55,010

more than we could provide and more

time outside of a kennel setting.

108

00:05:55,830 --> 00:05:55,831

Dr. G:

109

00:05:55,831 --> 00:05:58,110

And did he charge you

anything for this service?

110

00:05:58,740 --> 00:06:00,360

Emma Ripka: I do know that she gave him.

111

00:06:00,705 --> 00:06:04,695

I believe it was a thousand dollars

when she, when he took Gucci on.

112

00:06:04,965 --> 00:06:09,885

Um, to which I guess, uh, is

a charge, um, for his food.

113

00:06:09,915 --> 00:06:11,505

Any vet work that was needed out there?

114

00:06:11,715 --> 00:06:14,115

Um, the only difference with

Gucci was that he did not

115

00:06:14,115 --> 00:06:16,635

ask for more money from us.

116

00:06:16,665 --> 00:06:18,945

The longer he had Gucci like

he did with other people.

117

00:06:19,578 --> 00:06:19,579

Dr. G:

118

00:06:19,579 --> 00:06:21,558

How long total did he end up having?

119

00:06:21,558 --> 00:06:22,008

Gucci?

120

00:06:23,238 --> 00:06:28,457

Emma Ripka: He got Gucci,

it was April of 2016.

121

00:06:28,968 --> 00:06:34,098

And Gucci was euthanized,

um, October of 2016.

122

00:06:34,218 --> 00:06:34,248

Okay.

123

00:06:35,298 --> 00:06:35,299

Dr. G:

124

00:06:35,299 --> 00:06:37,848

So you mentioned that

he was dating Amanda.

125

00:06:37,878 --> 00:06:41,328

So Amanda ended up moving to

Ohio with him, is that right?

126

00:06:41,508 --> 00:06:41,868

Emma Ripka: Yes.

127

00:06:41,898 --> 00:06:43,638

Uh, she decided to move out with him.

128

00:06:43,938 --> 00:06:48,738

Um, they were dating for a few weeks or

months, um, before this decision was made.

129

00:06:49,068 --> 00:06:52,518

Uh, the plan was for Gucci to go

out with him in April and Amanda

130

00:06:52,518 --> 00:06:53,808

to fully move out there in May.

131

00:06:54,332 --> 00:06:59,283

And part of the reason why she made the

decision so quickly was because Stefan

132

00:06:59,613 --> 00:07:05,223

informed her that he was shooting a

pilot for a show on, I dunno if it was

133

00:07:05,223 --> 00:07:08,103

animal plan or whatever, but kind of

compared it to pit bull and parolees.

134

00:07:08,403 --> 00:07:10,923

Um, and needed help getting

his property ready before the

135

00:07:10,953 --> 00:07:12,453

crew got there and everything.

136

00:07:12,663 --> 00:07:16,803

So Amanda kind of sped up her process

and moved out there with him to

137

00:07:16,803 --> 00:07:18,633

help his property get to this point.

138

00:07:18,933 --> 00:07:20,973

Um, but that was all a lie.

139

00:07:21,003 --> 00:07:23,343

There was no show, there

was no crew coming.

140

00:07:23,433 --> 00:07:23,523

It.

141

00:07:23,988 --> 00:07:25,758

Was just a complete lie to her.

142

00:07:26,658 --> 00:07:26,659

Dr. G:

143

00:07:26,659 --> 00:07:30,738

So what, what was her communications

with you guys as far as like

144

00:07:30,738 --> 00:07:34,398

when she went there and she saw

that things were, were not it,

145

00:07:35,268 --> 00:07:38,538

Emma Ripka: so she stayed in

contact with us, um, most of

146

00:07:38,538 --> 00:07:39,888

the time that she was out there.

147

00:07:40,158 --> 00:07:45,948

Um, I think communication kind of slowed

down a little bit when she got back into.

148

00:07:47,133 --> 00:07:50,433

I don't know if it was alcohol or drugs

or whatever it was while she was with him.

149

00:07:50,793 --> 00:07:54,153

Um, but her communication

at the start was great.

150

00:07:54,153 --> 00:07:55,053

It was phenomenal out there.

151

00:07:55,053 --> 00:07:55,773

She loved it.

152

00:07:55,832 --> 00:08:00,243

Um, Stephan hid the truth

for a while from her.

153

00:08:00,513 --> 00:08:04,653

Um, so she didn't know it was a lie until

she was already there for a little bit.

154

00:08:04,983 --> 00:08:07,683

Um, that's when things

started taking a turn.

155

00:08:07,683 --> 00:08:11,403

And she did tell us that he

was being abusive towards her.

156

00:08:11,403 --> 00:08:12,963

And the one story that

always sticks out was.

157

00:08:13,058 --> 00:08:16,778

I, she was cleaning like the gutters or

something on top of the, like on the roof.

158

00:08:16,898 --> 00:08:22,028

And she was on a tall ladder and

he got mad at her for no reason and

159

00:08:22,028 --> 00:08:23,438

kicked the ladder out from under her.

160

00:08:23,918 --> 00:08:28,148

Um, that was the first time she

opened up about what was happening.

161

00:08:28,478 --> 00:08:30,608

Um, she didn't go into.

162

00:08:30,963 --> 00:08:33,903

Much more detail on the

full extent of abuse.

163

00:08:34,203 --> 00:08:36,153

Uh, she didn't wanna talk

about it when she came back.

164

00:08:36,153 --> 00:08:37,623

She didn't wanna share what happened.

165

00:08:37,953 --> 00:08:42,513

Um, she just said Gucci's safe

and eventually came back home.

166

00:08:42,873 --> 00:08:46,173

Um, she, I mean, she went out there

in May and she was back by August.

167

00:08:46,413 --> 00:08:48,513

Um, so really she only

spent the summer with 'em.

168

00:08:48,873 --> 00:08:53,403

Uh, but when she came back it wasn't, she

didn't really wanna talk about anything.

169

00:08:53,463 --> 00:08:53,943

Um.

170

00:08:54,318 --> 00:08:56,928

Which I wish that she would open

up a little bit more about it.

171

00:08:56,928 --> 00:09:00,108

I think if she was still here today

and saw this happening, she would

172

00:09:00,108 --> 00:09:01,788

absolutely open up about it more.

173

00:09:02,088 --> 00:09:06,678

Um, but at the time she definitely

didn't want to talk about it.

174

00:09:06,948 --> 00:09:09,378

Um, but when she came back home, she.

175

00:09:09,993 --> 00:09:11,133

Was no longer sober.

176

00:09:11,253 --> 00:09:13,563

Um, she was sober for seven years.

177

00:09:13,593 --> 00:09:17,883

Um, when she went out to Ohio, came

back, um, really could not care for

178

00:09:17,883 --> 00:09:19,743

herself, could not care for her animals.

179

00:09:20,043 --> 00:09:23,313

Made the decision to leave one of

her dogs with Stefan because he was a

180

00:09:23,313 --> 00:09:27,783

behavioral, um, west Highland Terrier

and was doing much better, she said,

181

00:09:27,783 --> 00:09:30,363

having more space to himself with Stefan.

182

00:09:30,663 --> 00:09:33,273

Um, so they made the agreement

for Mozart to stay out there.

183

00:09:33,678 --> 00:09:35,388

No idea whatever happened to Mozart.

184

00:09:35,748 --> 00:09:38,898

Um, but when she came

back, it was, it was rough.

185

00:09:38,928 --> 00:09:45,108

Um, she had a very hard final year, two

years of her life, um, wasn't able to care

186

00:09:45,108 --> 00:09:48,438

for her animals anymore, couldn't hold

a job or anything like that because of

187

00:09:48,438 --> 00:09:50,328

her addiction being back in full force.

188

00:09:50,778 --> 00:09:56,178

Um, and I actually ended up right when

she moved back with Stefan, she gave me

189

00:09:56,178 --> 00:09:58,248

one of her dogs that she could not, um.

190

00:09:59,208 --> 00:10:00,798

Uh, bring to where she was living.

191

00:10:01,008 --> 00:10:05,358

So I ended up having Brody, um, who

just recently passed away, um, from

192

00:10:05,358 --> 00:10:07,368

the time she got back until last year.

193

00:10:08,898 --> 00:10:08,899

Dr. G:

194

00:10:08,899 --> 00:10:11,058

It's, it's really sad and I spoke with.

195

00:10:11,478 --> 00:10:15,918

Another person that he was dating,

and it sounds like a pattern, right?

196

00:10:15,918 --> 00:10:20,718

Like he takes people who are vulnerable

and then isolates them, takes 'em away

197

00:10:20,718 --> 00:10:25,278

from their friends and family, um,

does all these lies, takes away their,

198

00:10:25,398 --> 00:10:29,838

their financial strength and everything

else, and then just starts playing

199

00:10:29,838 --> 00:10:34,608

game with them and causing problems

like alcoholism and drug addiction.

200

00:10:34,983 --> 00:10:39,333

So, you know, it just breaks people

down and then becomes abusive.

201

00:10:39,423 --> 00:10:42,573

I mean, a very clear pattern

of domestic violence.

202

00:10:42,753 --> 00:10:45,813

And then on the side,

the, the animal abuse.

203

00:10:46,533 --> 00:10:46,983

Emma Ripka: Yeah.

204

00:10:46,983 --> 00:10:49,773

And I know Amanda did have a

job while she was out there.

205

00:10:49,773 --> 00:10:51,783

She was a very good tattoo artist.

206

00:10:52,173 --> 00:10:55,773

Um, she did get a temporary,

uh, job out there in Ohio.

207

00:10:56,193 --> 00:11:00,693

Um, she only left it because she had

to leave the situation she was in.

208

00:11:01,023 --> 00:11:02,733

Um, but I do know at one point.

209

00:11:03,303 --> 00:11:07,833

He informed her that there was

no rent because the property was

210

00:11:07,833 --> 00:11:10,953

owned by the county or whatever.

211

00:11:11,253 --> 00:11:16,773

Um, and then the one day he freaked out on

her and asked her where the rent was and

212

00:11:16,773 --> 00:11:19,563

she didn't have a job at the time 'cause

she was helping him on the property.

213

00:11:19,563 --> 00:11:23,253

And because all of a sudden there was rent

and she was expected to pay all of it.

214

00:11:23,673 --> 00:11:25,113

Um, so it was.

215

00:11:25,758 --> 00:11:27,558

A very bizarre situation.

216

00:11:27,558 --> 00:11:29,358

Like it was just all lies.

217

00:11:29,448 --> 00:11:32,568

And I wish that she was here

today to ask questions because

218

00:11:32,568 --> 00:11:33,978

I'm sure there's so much more.

219

00:11:34,308 --> 00:11:37,818

Um, but what we do know, I mean

obviously just wasn't good at all.

220

00:11:37,908 --> 00:11:42,108

And I just wish that she, I don't know

if she didn't see the full extent of what

221

00:11:42,108 --> 00:11:46,038

he was doing to the animals because she

was a very, very big animal advocate.

222

00:11:46,398 --> 00:11:49,998

Um, so I would imagine if she

saw some extreme things, she

223

00:11:49,998 --> 00:11:51,468

would have said something unless.

224

00:11:51,813 --> 00:11:54,513

Something was said to her to

prevent her from doing that.

225

00:11:54,873 --> 00:12:00,213

Um, but I mean, I wish we could ask her

more questions, but I really do believe

226

00:12:00,213 --> 00:12:04,713

that if she saw something really bad,

she would've spoken up unless she feared

227

00:12:04,713 --> 00:12:06,543

for something to happen to her in return.

228

00:12:06,843 --> 00:12:09,273

'cause she was just, her whole

life revolved around animals.

229

00:12:10,488 --> 00:12:10,489

Dr. G:

230

00:12:10,489 --> 00:12:14,598

Yeah, it's, it's really sad the,

the path that he took her from.

231

00:12:14,598 --> 00:12:19,038

And even though he didn't do anything

directly to end her life, I think

232

00:12:19,038 --> 00:12:21,408

that, I mean, you can speak to it.

233

00:12:21,498 --> 00:12:24,918

Do you think that he was

responsible for what happened?

234

00:12:25,248 --> 00:12:25,848

Emma Ripka: I do.

235

00:12:25,908 --> 00:12:29,058

Um, I, I think everyone

involved in her life.

236

00:12:29,433 --> 00:12:32,223

Believes that if she never met

him, she would still be here.

237

00:12:32,553 --> 00:12:33,993

Um, she was doing so well.

238

00:12:34,053 --> 00:12:36,243

She had a great job.

239

00:12:36,243 --> 00:12:40,563

She had all her animals, great

relationships with her friends and family.

240

00:12:40,953 --> 00:12:44,553

Um, she was really doing well for

herself until this all happened.

241

00:12:44,883 --> 00:12:50,673

Um, so I, I personally, strongly

believe and put him at fault for

242

00:12:50,913 --> 00:12:52,383

what ultimately happened to her.

243

00:12:54,183 --> 00:12:54,184

Dr. G:

244

00:12:54,184 --> 00:12:56,283

So tell me about Gucci.

245

00:12:56,283 --> 00:12:57,513

What ended up happening?

246

00:12:57,513 --> 00:12:58,743

What was Gucci's story?

247

00:13:00,093 --> 00:13:02,583

Emma Ripka: Um, so what ended

up happening with Gucci was.

248

00:13:03,123 --> 00:13:08,103

We were told that he was adopted out,

and I'm actually still in contact with

249

00:13:08,103 --> 00:13:09,813

the person who originally adopted him.

250

00:13:09,813 --> 00:13:11,403

So that was not a lie.

251

00:13:11,763 --> 00:13:17,613

Um, he very, very quickly placed,

uh, Gucci into a new home that had

252

00:13:17,613 --> 00:13:20,523

other animals, which one of his

issues was not being good with other

253

00:13:20,523 --> 00:13:25,413

animals, um, which wouldn't have

been as big of an issue because.

254

00:13:25,623 --> 00:13:28,503

He did show us proof that Gucci

was playing with the other dogs his

255

00:13:28,503 --> 00:13:31,023

size at home or at Stefan's home.

256

00:13:31,323 --> 00:13:35,223

Um, so he was doing better with them,

but he placed 'em into a setting

257

00:13:35,223 --> 00:13:39,363

where it was another pit, which I

don't think he had an issue with.

258

00:13:39,363 --> 00:13:40,653

I'm not a hundred percent on that.

259

00:13:40,953 --> 00:13:44,013

But the woman also had

an elderly small dog.

260

00:13:44,748 --> 00:13:47,928

So what ultimately happened was

Gucci went after the small dog.

261

00:13:48,078 --> 00:13:50,778

I don't know if the other pit got

involved or what happened, but she had to

262

00:13:50,778 --> 00:13:52,938

immediately return, uh, Gucci to Stefan.

263

00:13:53,238 --> 00:13:57,918

And I don't blame her, but he also should

have never been put in that situation that

264

00:13:57,918 --> 00:14:00,258

it was the opposite of what he needed.

265

00:14:00,588 --> 00:14:02,238

Um, and it was just so quick.

266

00:14:02,238 --> 00:14:04,578

I feel like it was within a

month of him having Gucci,

267

00:14:04,578 --> 00:14:06,348

that he just adopted him out.

268

00:14:06,678 --> 00:14:07,968

Um, and at the time.

269

00:14:08,643 --> 00:14:14,733

I was 16, so it was, I didn't have a lot

of questions to ask or I didn't question

270

00:14:14,733 --> 00:14:18,543

him really at all because of my age, and

I just wasn't experienced enough to ask

271

00:14:18,543 --> 00:14:19,773

the questions that should have been asked.

272

00:14:20,253 --> 00:14:26,583

Um, but he came back to him, he said

again, at one point Gucci was adopted out

273

00:14:26,913 --> 00:14:31,503

and it didn't work out, and he texted at

one point, like Gucci had an incident.

274

00:14:32,258 --> 00:14:35,618

And his back and his care wouldn't

tell me what the incident was.

275

00:14:35,948 --> 00:14:38,348

Um, kind of got quiet after that.

276

00:14:38,768 --> 00:14:42,578

Joked about, did I ever tell you

the time Gucci, uh, bit my son?

277

00:14:42,728 --> 00:14:43,538

And I was like, no.

278

00:14:43,538 --> 00:14:45,878

And he shouldn't have been around kids.

279

00:14:45,878 --> 00:14:51,038

So I was a little frustrated when he

said and his, um, impact statement or

280

00:14:51,038 --> 00:14:54,728

whatever it's called, that uh, he would

never put his son in danger 'cause he.

281

00:14:55,083 --> 00:14:59,733

He did and there's proof in him texting

me that, um, and he said it was fine.

282

00:14:59,733 --> 00:15:03,453

He just bruised him, uh, and he found.

283

00:15:04,383 --> 00:15:07,683

A few days after that, he was like,

Hey, I finally found, uh, Gucci,

284

00:15:07,683 --> 00:15:10,503

a child-free, animal free home.

285

00:15:10,503 --> 00:15:10,983

It's perfect.

286

00:15:10,983 --> 00:15:11,763

They love him.

287

00:15:11,973 --> 00:15:14,763

And the date that he told me

he was adopted was actually

288

00:15:14,763 --> 00:15:15,933

the day that he euthanized him.

289

00:15:16,353 --> 00:15:19,293

So I, to this day, I have no

idea why he euthanized Gucci.

290

00:15:19,743 --> 00:15:24,543

I don't know if it was, it was because

of, just to get back at Amanda just to.

291

00:15:25,033 --> 00:15:28,003

We weren't sending him any more money,

even though he wasn't asking for it.

292

00:15:28,303 --> 00:15:30,883

Um, everything kind of

got quiet after that.

293

00:15:30,943 --> 00:15:35,293

And the biggest red flag looking back

at this whole situation was that he

294

00:15:35,293 --> 00:15:37,453

never sent us the adopter's information.

295

00:15:37,933 --> 00:15:38,323

Um.

296

00:15:38,913 --> 00:15:41,913

Which now I know that's a huge red flag.

297

00:15:42,243 --> 00:15:45,783

Um, I only happened to find the first

adopter because she commented on

298

00:15:45,783 --> 00:15:48,423

something Stephan posted saying how

well Gucci was doing the first day.

299

00:15:49,023 --> 00:15:50,613

Um, so that's how I got contact with her.

300

00:15:50,643 --> 00:15:53,013

But he never sent us the adopt

the other adoptions that happened.

301

00:15:53,013 --> 00:15:54,963

We never received paperwork on that.

302

00:15:55,383 --> 00:15:58,833

Um, so that's a little frustrating

looking back at the whole situation.

303

00:15:59,313 --> 00:16:02,043

He would send, say like, Gucci's

doing well and everything and

304

00:16:02,043 --> 00:16:03,363

act like it didn't happen.

305

00:16:03,663 --> 00:16:08,403

Um, I would reach out to him for

help of o other dogs in our care that

306

00:16:08,403 --> 00:16:10,173

needed out, um, that needed his help.

307

00:16:10,533 --> 00:16:14,583

Um, he would send back advice or there

was one dog, Ellie, that he was going back

308

00:16:14,583 --> 00:16:18,903

and forth with me on about considering

taking, thank God he never took her.

309

00:16:18,963 --> 00:16:19,593

Um.

310

00:16:20,253 --> 00:16:22,653

She actually ended up getting

adopted a few weeks after I sent

311

00:16:22,653 --> 00:16:23,913

him the message asking for help.

312

00:16:24,333 --> 00:16:26,613

Uh, so who knows what

would've happened to her.

313

00:16:26,703 --> 00:16:31,473

Um, but even when Amanda came back

and I got Brody from her, I would

314

00:16:31,473 --> 00:16:34,353

text him and be like, I'm having all

these behavioral issues with Brody.

315

00:16:34,383 --> 00:16:35,463

Like, can you please help?

316

00:16:35,703 --> 00:16:38,463

We'd go back and forth and he'd

gimme some advice or anything.

317

00:16:38,463 --> 00:16:41,343

And now looking back at it,

like, I don't know what he, he

318

00:16:41,343 --> 00:16:42,393

could have done something to her.

319

00:16:42,423 --> 00:16:43,233

She was deaf.

320

00:16:43,553 --> 00:16:44,933

A lot of issues.

321

00:16:45,263 --> 00:16:50,753

Um, so I don't honestly want to even know

what her life was like on, um, in Ohio.

322

00:16:51,053 --> 00:16:54,653

Um, but like, I just felt bad after

the fact being like I was asking one of

323

00:16:54,653 --> 00:16:57,023

her potential abusers or help with her.

324

00:16:57,473 --> 00:16:59,183

Um, so that was frustrating.

325

00:16:59,243 --> 00:17:00,293

That was super frustrating.

326

00:17:00,683 --> 00:17:05,453

But after that, with all of our dogs,

communication was normal with Stefan.

327

00:17:05,453 --> 00:17:09,473

And then I eventually got the call

from Detective Conroy, and that was

328

00:17:09,473 --> 00:17:11,933

the first time we found anything out.

329

00:17:12,768 --> 00:17:12,769

Dr. G:

330

00:17:12,769 --> 00:17:15,228

So that was the first time that

you find out that Gucci was dead?

331

00:17:15,528 --> 00:17:15,887

Emma Ripka: Yep.

332

00:17:16,008 --> 00:17:19,188

I remember it very vividly 'cause

I did not believe it at first.

333

00:17:19,218 --> 00:17:23,088

Uh, he actually messaged me on Facebook,

so I was like, oh, may, I don't know

334

00:17:23,088 --> 00:17:24,377

if this is a real person, whatever.

335

00:17:24,377 --> 00:17:27,348

So I actually called, um, I

don't know if he knows this.

336

00:17:27,407 --> 00:17:28,998

I called, um.

337

00:17:29,418 --> 00:17:31,908

His station or whatever, and I

was like, is this a real person?

338

00:17:31,908 --> 00:17:34,518

Like is this really

one of your detectives?

339

00:17:34,518 --> 00:17:35,328

And they said, yeah.

340

00:17:35,598 --> 00:17:38,178

So I called him back and

I remember it so vividly.

341

00:17:38,178 --> 00:17:42,888

I was just sitting on my bed in my

apartment and he just told me Gucci

342

00:17:42,888 --> 00:17:44,298

was euthanized and told me the date.

343

00:17:44,298 --> 00:17:46,878

And I was like, that's the date

Stephan told me he was adopted.

344

00:17:47,268 --> 00:17:50,478

So that was the first time I found

out anything or anyone at our

345

00:17:50,478 --> 00:17:52,098

shelter found out anything about it.

346

00:17:52,128 --> 00:17:55,008

It was, and at this point, Stefan, I

believe, was in California already,

347

00:17:55,848 --> 00:17:57,408

or on the process of going there.

348

00:17:58,608 --> 00:17:58,609

Dr. G:

349

00:17:58,609 --> 00:17:58,898

Okay.

350

00:17:59,493 --> 00:18:03,573

And by this time, had Amanda passed

already or was she still with us?

351

00:18:04,383 --> 00:18:10,293

Emma Ripka: Uh, she had passed,

yes, because he contacted me.

352

00:18:10,503 --> 00:18:12,303

I thought, I'm trying

to think of the dates.

353

00:18:12,303 --> 00:18:14,283

I believe he contacted me in 2019.

354

00:18:15,153 --> 00:18:18,123

Um, and Amanda passed in 2018.

355

00:18:18,513 --> 00:18:18,514

Dr. G:

356

00:18:18,514 --> 00:18:23,283

So looking back at, at all of this,

you know, all the, all the damage

357

00:18:23,283 --> 00:18:28,113

just in, in general as a rescue,

how has it affected you guys?

358

00:18:29,373 --> 00:18:30,363

Emma Ripka: It affected us a lot.

359

00:18:30,423 --> 00:18:30,993

Um.

360

00:18:32,088 --> 00:18:36,948

Unfortunately, um, or fortunately I guess,

uh, by the time this all came to light, a

361

00:18:36,948 --> 00:18:41,868

lot of the volunteers that were there with

Gucci had since moved on from the shelter.

362

00:18:41,868 --> 00:18:43,338

So it was all fresh people.

363

00:18:43,668 --> 00:18:48,018

Um, so they didn't really understand

the extent of it, um, as much as I did.

364

00:18:48,018 --> 00:18:50,808

And like the people who've been there

for a very long time understood it.

365

00:18:51,258 --> 00:18:51,828

Um.

366

00:18:52,198 --> 00:18:56,008

We really lost trust in trainers,

which is not a great thing when

367

00:18:56,008 --> 00:18:58,768

you're dealing with a no kill shelter

that has behavioral case dogs.

368

00:18:59,158 --> 00:19:04,468

Um, very hesitant to bring anyone involved

and if they, um, were involved, they were

369

00:19:04,468 --> 00:19:06,058

never left alone with one of our animals.

370

00:19:06,058 --> 00:19:07,438

A volunteer was always with them.

371

00:19:07,558 --> 00:19:12,178

Uh, we didn't have many come back, uh,

just because we just weren't comfortable

372

00:19:12,178 --> 00:19:14,068

with it, even if the trainer was amazing.

373

00:19:14,098 --> 00:19:17,338

It just really affected that whole

relationship that we had with really

374

00:19:17,338 --> 00:19:19,858

anybody, um, outside of the shelter.

375

00:19:20,463 --> 00:19:24,273

Uh, board and train was

an absolute no for us.

376

00:19:24,423 --> 00:19:26,643

Um, we were petrified

to send a dog anywhere.

377

00:19:26,913 --> 00:19:32,613

Um, that changed slightly, um,

December of last year because we had a

378

00:19:32,643 --> 00:19:35,493

volunteer who was working, um, to, to.

379

00:19:35,728 --> 00:19:36,838

To get a degree.

380

00:19:36,838 --> 00:19:38,908

And part of it was that she

had to work hand, hand in hand

381

00:19:38,908 --> 00:19:40,348

with the trainer and the board.

382

00:19:40,348 --> 00:19:41,878

And trainer is only an hour away from us.

383

00:19:41,938 --> 00:19:45,088

She would be there every week, checking

in on the dog, handling the dog.

384

00:19:45,388 --> 00:19:46,918

Um, so we said yes to that.

385

00:19:46,918 --> 00:19:50,698

And so far that experience has been

completely different than this.

386

00:19:50,968 --> 00:19:52,138

Absolutely phenomenal.

387

00:19:52,378 --> 00:19:55,528

Um, but it took until this

point to trust them and.

388

00:19:55,838 --> 00:19:59,408

I honestly don't know if we would

trust anybody else, just because we

389

00:19:59,408 --> 00:20:03,998

have a direct in with this trainer,

um, who's there to see everything,

390

00:20:04,238 --> 00:20:05,708

um, which comforted us a lot.

391

00:20:05,888 --> 00:20:09,488

But we still went back and forth on it

because, I mean, Stephan just ruined

392

00:20:09,788 --> 00:20:14,558

our view on trainers in general, which

sucks because you want to work with

393

00:20:14,558 --> 00:20:17,708

trainers, um, and where we are located.

394

00:20:18,213 --> 00:20:21,423

There's not many, and we're kind

of in the middle of nowhere.

395

00:20:21,933 --> 00:20:23,673

Uh, so there's not many trainers.

396

00:20:23,703 --> 00:20:25,833

There are no behavioralists at all.

397

00:20:25,863 --> 00:20:28,383

We'd have to drive at least two,

two and a half hours to get to one.

398

00:20:28,683 --> 00:20:33,123

Um, so taking the opportunities of

trainers locally, we should want

399

00:20:33,123 --> 00:20:39,363

to do, but we're still hesitant

because it just left a bad feeling

400

00:20:39,513 --> 00:20:41,133

and it probably will for a long time.

401

00:20:42,438 --> 00:20:42,439

Dr. G:

402

00:20:42,439 --> 00:20:48,048

He took away people's ability to

trust and people's hope, because there

403

00:20:48,318 --> 00:20:53,238

are so many people that were hopeful

that their dog could be treated and

404

00:20:53,238 --> 00:20:54,858

then all of a sudden they couldn't.

405

00:20:55,923 --> 00:20:58,203

You know, because, uh, because

he wasn't a good trainer.

406

00:20:58,203 --> 00:20:59,553

He wasn't a trainer, period.

407

00:20:59,553 --> 00:21:01,833

Like he was afraid of dogs realistically.

408

00:21:02,283 --> 00:21:07,683

So it's, you know, he, yeah, he,

for such a pit bull advocate,

409

00:21:07,773 --> 00:21:09,723

he was pit bull's worst enemy.

410

00:21:10,713 --> 00:21:11,583

Emma Ripka: He really was.

411

00:21:11,583 --> 00:21:16,503

And it's so frustrating that

he did all this, and I really

412

00:21:16,503 --> 00:21:18,873

hope that it doesn't disappear.

413

00:21:18,933 --> 00:21:23,083

I really hope that it can, is continued

to be, um, like spoken about and mm-hmm.

414

00:21:23,673 --> 00:21:27,003

Even having some sort of law

come out of it to protect animals

415

00:21:27,003 --> 00:21:28,533

that go to these types of places.

416

00:21:28,833 --> 00:21:34,473

Um, I mean, I just hope that when he is

eventually out, it doesn't happen again.

417

00:21:34,473 --> 00:21:38,553

But I hope before he gets out, there's

more actions taken to prevent it

418

00:21:38,553 --> 00:21:43,113

from ever happening again, and that

no one stays quiet about him because

419

00:21:43,353 --> 00:21:45,363

his name should stay alive and.

420

00:21:46,653 --> 00:21:48,003

He needs to be talked about.

421

00:21:48,003 --> 00:21:51,363

And I just hope that it doesn't

disappear, that everyone needs to

422

00:21:51,363 --> 00:21:55,383

be aware and know the red flags of

a board and train that you're, you

423

00:21:55,383 --> 00:21:57,963

wanna work with, ask questions.

424

00:21:58,282 --> 00:21:58,283

Dr. G:

425

00:21:58,283 --> 00:22:02,362

Now that we have talked about Gucci's

story, let's bring back Jenny Falvey and

426

00:22:02,362 --> 00:22:05,182

discuss what happened with Gucci's story.

427

00:22:05,667 --> 00:22:07,587

Jenny Falvey: My name is Jenny Falvey.

428

00:22:08,157 --> 00:22:13,857

I am a Certified Behavior Consultant

through the C-C-P-D-T Certified

429

00:22:13,857 --> 00:22:18,537

Professional dog trainer through

C-C-P-D-T, um, Vic, uh, Victoria

430

00:22:18,537 --> 00:22:23,037

Stillwell, uh, trainer and, uh,

fear Free certified trainer.

431

00:22:24,027 --> 00:22:27,327

And I've been doing this about 37 years.

432

00:22:28,107 --> 00:22:33,327

And I initially started by mentoring under

people and worked my way up to learn as

433

00:22:33,327 --> 00:22:39,957

much as I could and then, um, sit for the

exam, uh, for both of the certifications.

434

00:22:40,647 --> 00:22:44,247

I'm also the owner of Dog Smarts

Unleashed, and we're a positive

435

00:22:44,247 --> 00:22:47,967

reinforcement, uh, facility,

uh, with four locations.

436

00:22:48,477 --> 00:22:51,627

Uh, I'm also the president of

Animal Charity of Ohio, which is

437

00:22:51,627 --> 00:22:53,457

the Humane Agency for Mahon County.

438

00:22:55,117 --> 00:22:55,118

Dr. G:

439

00:22:55,118 --> 00:23:00,007

With, with Gucci, in my opinion, this

was one of the most irresponsible ones

440

00:23:00,217 --> 00:23:04,447

because I mean, every, every animal

that he became in contact with, it was

441

00:23:04,447 --> 00:23:06,157

irresponsible the way that he handled it.

442

00:23:06,157 --> 00:23:06,247

Mm-hmm.

443

00:23:06,582 --> 00:23:12,037

But Gucci was a dog that actually had

known aggression issues, known aggression

444

00:23:12,037 --> 00:23:16,357

with animals, known aggression with

women that, that dog did not know.

445

00:23:16,562 --> 00:23:16,982

Mm-hmm.

446

00:23:17,067 --> 00:23:22,927

And, you know, it, it's, this was

totally setting this dog up first,

447

00:23:23,017 --> 00:23:28,987

unrealistic expectations to the group

that had Gucci who thought, oh, maybe

448

00:23:28,987 --> 00:23:32,527

there is a chance because they were

ready to have Gucci be a sanctuary dog.

449

00:23:32,977 --> 00:23:33,097

Right.

450

00:23:33,097 --> 00:23:36,877

And, you know, spend the rest, uh,

you know, just at the sanctuary.

451

00:23:37,207 --> 00:23:43,237

But yet he gives this unrealistic

expectation that I can make this

452

00:23:43,237 --> 00:23:48,277

dog adoptable and then take, you

know, and, and not do anything.

453

00:23:48,682 --> 00:23:49,162

Jenny Falvey: Right?

454

00:23:49,312 --> 00:23:49,672

Yeah.

455

00:23:50,242 --> 00:23:50,602

Oh yeah.

456

00:23:50,602 --> 00:23:56,212

I mean, yeah, clearly this was

one that stood out more so than a

457

00:23:56,212 --> 00:24:00,652

lot of the other ones because it

was so blatantly irresponsible.

458

00:24:01,132 --> 00:24:05,632

So here's a dog, as you mentioned, has

all these aggression issues, um, in

459

00:24:05,632 --> 00:24:08,182

particular to women and other animals.

460

00:24:08,512 --> 00:24:15,652

And within 10 days of getting this dog

into his facility, he places the dog

461

00:24:15,652 --> 00:24:22,012

in a foster home that is a woman and

another dog, and no less a female dog.

462

00:24:22,792 --> 00:24:28,942

Um, and he Gucci immediately

attacks the other dog.

463

00:24:29,152 --> 00:24:31,012

So now the dog gets returned.

464

00:24:31,432 --> 00:24:35,362

Um, so just absolutely sets

this dog up for failure.

465

00:24:35,812 --> 00:24:40,377

Uh, he also, you know, multiple

messages to the rescue basically.

466

00:24:41,647 --> 00:24:45,667

Saying she's cured in this two

month period, like everything's

467

00:24:45,667 --> 00:24:47,257

great, she's wonderful.

468

00:24:47,677 --> 00:24:52,837

Um, but obviously it was not,

and there's no way you could

469

00:24:52,837 --> 00:24:57,997

have safely addressed this, in my

opinion, in that amount of time.

470

00:24:58,477 --> 00:25:01,327

In particular, having a second

incident that occurred, another

471

00:25:01,327 --> 00:25:04,417

incident that occurs and then

you're trying to rebound from that.

472

00:25:04,627 --> 00:25:09,727

So that one was shocking to me, uh, in

terms of how quick he placed that dog.

473

00:25:09,727 --> 00:25:13,357

There was likely nothing

done to ensure that this dog

474

00:25:13,357 --> 00:25:14,947

could enter that home safely.

475

00:25:15,157 --> 00:25:19,057

You know, no, couldn't find anything

to show he had done any work.

476

00:25:19,357 --> 00:25:23,437

And even if he had 10 days is

not long enough to even consider

477

00:25:23,437 --> 00:25:26,767

placing a dog with those issues,

especially because they're thinking

478

00:25:26,767 --> 00:25:28,327

of keeping the dog as a sanctuary dog.

479

00:25:28,327 --> 00:25:31,177

So they knew the dog wasn't

easily placeable, if at all.

480

00:25:31,807 --> 00:25:31,808

Dr. G:

481

00:25:31,808 --> 00:25:32,077

Right.

482

00:25:32,077 --> 00:25:36,817

And you know, they had, they had

Gucci from a really young age.

483

00:25:36,822 --> 00:25:37,102

Jenny Falvey: Mm-hmm.

484

00:25:37,237 --> 00:25:37,238

Dr. G:

485

00:25:37,238 --> 00:25:41,977

And the aggression issues started

showing up at a really young age.

486

00:25:42,247 --> 00:25:48,277

So, in, in your experience, is that

kind of say, does that give you an

487

00:25:48,277 --> 00:25:54,367

idea as far as long or short term

progress, if any, with a dog that you

488

00:25:54,367 --> 00:25:56,437

know, has behavior problems as a puppy?

489

00:25:57,367 --> 00:25:57,667

Jenny Falvey: Right.

490

00:25:57,667 --> 00:26:01,022

I mean, to me, when you're seeing those

behavior problems, it's sort of a, a

491

00:26:01,027 --> 00:26:05,317

toss of a coin because I think sometimes

when you see these dogs that have issues

492

00:26:05,317 --> 00:26:09,367

when they're young, you may be able to

get ahead of that work with them to know

493

00:26:09,367 --> 00:26:13,567

they could be managed, not necessarily

these behaviors, quote unquote fixed.

494

00:26:13,987 --> 00:26:18,547

But the other side of that is, is,

you know, why is the dog showing

495

00:26:18,547 --> 00:26:20,617

that behavior at such a young age?

496

00:26:20,647 --> 00:26:25,387

And is this just going to escalate

to a point where it's no longer,

497

00:26:25,717 --> 00:26:28,627

you know, feasible for the dog

to live in a home with humans?

498

00:26:29,662 --> 00:26:34,072

So I've seen dogs that have shown

behavior issues at a young age that have

499

00:26:34,072 --> 00:26:38,152

been worked with extensively and have

made progress and been able to live out

500

00:26:38,212 --> 00:26:41,272

a, a successful life with management.

501

00:26:41,542 --> 00:26:44,782

But I have also seen puppies that

have shown these issues at a young

502

00:26:44,782 --> 00:26:48,322

age and worsened very quickly.

503

00:26:48,832 --> 00:26:51,592

And in, you know, the instances

in which I said it was

504

00:26:51,592 --> 00:26:54,592

successful, these were owned dogs.

505

00:26:54,862 --> 00:26:57,622

They were in a family home

in which people were there to

506

00:26:57,622 --> 00:26:59,002

work with the dog and manage.

507

00:26:59,332 --> 00:27:05,992

I think in a shelter setting, it is so

hard because you can't, it's very hard

508

00:27:05,992 --> 00:27:10,042

to find a shelter with the resources

to be able to train these dogs and

509

00:27:10,042 --> 00:27:12,082

work with them outside of the shelter.

510

00:27:12,082 --> 00:27:15,532

And, you know, it, it's just not,

it's not, most shelters are not

511

00:27:15,532 --> 00:27:18,622

fortunate enough to have that

type of revenue and resources.

512

00:27:19,372 --> 00:27:22,912

And so I think looking at these

young dogs in a shelter setting,

513

00:27:22,912 --> 00:27:25,762

if they're staying there, it's, I

would think it's likely gonna worsen.

514

00:27:25,762 --> 00:27:28,912

I don't see that improving, unfortunately.

515

00:27:29,932 --> 00:27:29,933

Dr. G:

516

00:27:29,933 --> 00:27:33,802

And I think that that's, that's

what was really sad about Gucci, is

517

00:27:33,892 --> 00:27:37,612

the fact that I think, personally,

I think Gucci's brain was broken.

518

00:27:38,272 --> 00:27:38,362

Mm-hmm.

519

00:27:39,022 --> 00:27:45,112

You know, and I don't know that that

Gucci's brain could be unbroken, but the,

520

00:27:45,172 --> 00:27:53,602

the situation was arranged to, to allow,

to allow the dog to be a dog, right?

521

00:27:53,857 --> 00:27:54,257

Mm-hmm.

522

00:27:54,342 --> 00:27:59,302

And to more importantly, safely

for the dog and safely for

523

00:27:59,302 --> 00:28:00,922

the people around the dog.

524

00:28:01,282 --> 00:28:01,492

Yeah.

525

00:28:01,492 --> 00:28:06,172

Not in a situation where, yeah, we're

going to be keeping this dog locked

526

00:28:06,172 --> 00:28:11,422

up in a sanctuary, you know, all the

time with no exposure to anybody.

527

00:28:11,722 --> 00:28:16,162

And then if somebody has to deal with

a dog, there's a bite risk or whatever.

528

00:28:16,162 --> 00:28:16,252

Mm-hmm.

529

00:28:16,492 --> 00:28:17,092

Like everything.

530

00:28:17,092 --> 00:28:20,962

I think that, I think, and I don't

say this very often about sanctuaries,

531

00:28:20,962 --> 00:28:24,442

because I have very, very strong

opinions about some sanctuaries.

532

00:28:24,447 --> 00:28:24,617

Mm-hmm.

533

00:28:24,697 --> 00:28:28,642

But I think that they actually had

the right idea and they had the, yeah.

534

00:28:29,047 --> 00:28:30,757

The right execution of it.

535

00:28:31,087 --> 00:28:36,217

And, and in the end it was their heart

in hoping that they could find a home.

536

00:28:37,207 --> 00:28:37,537

Jenny Falvey: Right.

537

00:28:37,537 --> 00:28:38,017

And I agree.

538

00:28:38,017 --> 00:28:42,847

I think they recognized that this

wasn't going to be a, a safe placement.

539

00:28:43,357 --> 00:28:48,637

And what, you know, aggravated me so

much about this is you took this dog

540

00:28:48,637 --> 00:28:52,777

that grew up in the shelter system

and in 10 days you put him in a home.

541

00:28:53,287 --> 00:28:55,627

He's never lived, you know,

he's not been in a home.

542

00:28:55,627 --> 00:29:00,337

He doesn't know the nuances of living in

a home, let alone a new woman and a dog.

543

00:29:00,907 --> 00:29:06,127

I mean, just there, that was one

of the most irresponsible and

544

00:29:06,127 --> 00:29:09,487

amateur things I saw in these cases.

545

00:29:10,747 --> 00:29:15,217

Yeah, I mean, you just, and, and to your

point about sanctuaries, you know, I

546

00:29:15,217 --> 00:29:19,597

think I, I probably share some of the same

thoughts about that, but I think in, in

547

00:29:19,597 --> 00:29:24,277

their organization, they really wanted to

do, they had hope that this was gonna be

548

00:29:24,277 --> 00:29:26,827

different, you know, and, and I'm sure he.

549

00:29:28,067 --> 00:29:32,422

Um, told them that, and I'm sure that

he, I mean, even in his messages to

550

00:29:32,422 --> 00:29:35,812

them, how, you know, she was so great

and everything was so wonderful.

551

00:29:35,842 --> 00:29:40,522

And so of course you build on that and

think, oh my gosh, all they wanted was

552

00:29:40,522 --> 00:29:44,092

for Gucci to be okay and have a, a home.

553

00:29:44,362 --> 00:29:44,692

You know?

554

00:29:44,692 --> 00:29:46,342

I mean, ultimately that's

what it comes down to.

555

00:29:47,332 --> 00:29:47,333

Dr. G:

556

00:29:47,333 --> 00:29:47,632

Yeah.

557

00:29:47,782 --> 00:29:53,062

And then what we see with a lot of these

dogs was the lying about, everything's

558

00:29:53,062 --> 00:29:55,162

going great, everything's going fine.

559

00:29:55,642 --> 00:30:00,202

And Gucci found a home and Gucci was dead.

560

00:30:00,652 --> 00:30:01,162

Jenny Falvey: Yes.

561

00:30:01,882 --> 00:30:07,822

I mean, such, there was so much

deceit and this was pervasive.

562

00:30:07,882 --> 00:30:10,762

Um, and, and it was that, or

I'll just ignore completely.

563

00:30:10,762 --> 00:30:12,202

I just won't respond to people.

564

00:30:12,202 --> 00:30:14,602

As you saw in many of the cases

when they were checking in,

565

00:30:14,602 --> 00:30:15,652

they just wouldn't respond.

566

00:30:16,672 --> 00:30:20,842

So it, you know, to me there

was, you, you never had any

567

00:30:20,842 --> 00:30:23,842

intention of helping these dogs.

568

00:30:24,637 --> 00:30:27,937

You had intention of securing the

funding for what you were doing,

569

00:30:28,357 --> 00:30:33,457

building your name at the cost

of these dogs' lives, you know?

570

00:30:33,457 --> 00:30:33,517

Yeah.

571

00:30:34,837 --> 00:30:36,247

And these are just the ones we know about,

572

00:30:37,118 --> 00:30:40,468

Judith: The following interview includes

descriptions of domestic violence.

573

00:30:40,858 --> 00:30:44,718

If you or someone you know is in

danger, contact the National Domestic

574

00:30:44,718 --> 00:30:49,628

Abuse Hotline at 1-800-799-7233

575

00:30:50,343 --> 00:30:55,603

DrG: Alright, we have here Meg Z and she

is going to discuss with us her part as

576

00:30:55,603 --> 00:30:57,583

far as like everything that happened.

577

00:30:57,583 --> 00:30:59,203

So thank you so much for being here.

578

00:30:59,503 --> 00:31:00,133

Yeah, thank you.

579

00:31:00,733 --> 00:31:04,123

So can you, let's, let's start,

I guess, at the beginning, like

580

00:31:04,123 --> 00:31:05,983

when your relationship started,

581

00:31:06,163 --> 00:31:06,823

Meg Zell: yeah.

582

00:31:06,913 --> 00:31:13,663

Um, for context, I was in a relationship

that wasn't like super healthy.

583

00:31:13,813 --> 00:31:19,603

Um, right before I met Stefan, I was

a hairstylist, um, and had been in

584

00:31:19,603 --> 00:31:21,913

like yeah, an unhealthy relationship.

585

00:31:22,918 --> 00:31:29,391

And, um, I had just adopted my

first dog that summer, Willie, um,

586

00:31:29,391 --> 00:31:31,101

from Franklin County Dog Shelter.

587

00:31:31,431 --> 00:31:36,411

And within like a month or two

months from adopting Willie, I had,

588

00:31:36,471 --> 00:31:41,091

um, I saw another dog for adoption

that looked like maybe a long lost.

589

00:31:41,421 --> 00:31:44,361

Dog, sibling of Willie's,

her name was Maya.

590

00:31:44,811 --> 00:31:49,521

Um, and so I went to go view

her at Franklin County Dog

591

00:31:49,521 --> 00:31:52,071

Shelter and she was super sick.

592

00:31:52,221 --> 00:31:55,401

Um, ended up passing on adopting her.

593

00:31:55,851 --> 00:31:59,991

Um, and after like a few weeks

she was like, adopted out,

594

00:31:59,991 --> 00:32:01,521

returned, adopted out, returned.

595

00:32:01,911 --> 00:32:05,421

And then, I don't know if you

remember this case, but um,

596

00:32:05,571 --> 00:32:07,341

she ended up having distemper.

597

00:32:08,271 --> 00:32:13,761

And then, um, Franklin County Dog

Shelter used that to euthanize

598

00:32:13,761 --> 00:32:15,591

like over a hundred dogs.

599

00:32:16,071 --> 00:32:18,771

Um, that like devastated me.

600

00:32:18,771 --> 00:32:19,581

I felt like I.

601

00:32:20,331 --> 00:32:20,991

Guilt.

602

00:32:21,141 --> 00:32:25,641

Um, like if I would've adopted her,

maybe, you know, they wouldn't have

603

00:32:25,731 --> 00:32:27,921

used that to euthanize so many dogs.

604

00:32:28,311 --> 00:32:32,991

I had no experience in

animal rescue or anything.

605

00:32:33,021 --> 00:32:36,921

Um, so that was like the first

time I realized that dogs were

606

00:32:36,921 --> 00:32:38,541

being euthanized at shelters.

607

00:32:38,661 --> 00:32:41,151

So, um, it threw me for a loop.

608

00:32:41,211 --> 00:32:44,421

I kinda started, um.

609

00:32:44,826 --> 00:32:49,116

Having some issues with hairstyling

and kind of like dipping into like

610

00:32:49,116 --> 00:32:51,816

my first ever depressive episode.

611

00:32:52,206 --> 00:32:57,576

So I took a pause from work and

during that time I was like starting

612

00:32:57,576 --> 00:32:59,016

to get involved in animal rescue.

613

00:32:59,346 --> 00:33:04,026

So that was like around September of 2016.

614

00:33:04,416 --> 00:33:11,136

Um, and so, uh, I had gone to a rally.

615

00:33:12,126 --> 00:33:14,046

Um, downtown Columbus.

616

00:33:14,556 --> 00:33:19,416

Um, and Stephan was there,

um, and we made eye contact.

617

00:33:19,416 --> 00:33:24,966

I heard him speak, um, and I

was like really impressed, you

618

00:33:24,966 --> 00:33:26,376

know, he is a great speaker.

619

00:33:27,126 --> 00:33:34,116

Um, so after that I wanted to

reach out to him to see like if he

620

00:33:34,116 --> 00:33:39,276

had any like, uh, recommendations

of how I could get involved.

621

00:33:40,206 --> 00:33:41,346

With animal rescue.

622

00:33:41,616 --> 00:33:45,726

So I sent him an email, and at

this time my relationship that I

623

00:33:45,726 --> 00:33:50,766

was currently in was like, um, not

great and like on the, on the fritz.

624

00:33:51,156 --> 00:33:56,556

So, um, we emailed a few times and then

he was like, you know, I'd love to just

625

00:33:56,556 --> 00:33:57,876

like, take you out to lunch or something.

626

00:33:57,876 --> 00:34:02,766

So we met up, um, I think

a few times for lunch.

627

00:34:03,306 --> 00:34:08,466

And during that course of time, you know,

he's, he's just such a good speaker.

628

00:34:09,246 --> 00:34:13,926

Um, and, you know, I was dealing

with like all these emotions that

629

00:34:13,926 --> 00:34:15,846

like I had never dealt with before.

630

00:34:15,846 --> 00:34:19,656

And he also kind of talked about

how he's dealt with depression.

631

00:34:19,956 --> 00:34:24,755

So like we clicked on

like that kind of part.

632

00:34:25,025 --> 00:34:30,906

Um, and so over the course of like a

few weeks, uh, we had gotten to know

633

00:34:30,906 --> 00:34:32,496

each other a little bit more and.

634

00:34:32,856 --> 00:34:38,136

At that time, he had kind of convinced

me to move out of my apartment

635

00:34:38,136 --> 00:34:42,636

with the boyfriend at the time,

break up with him and come live

636

00:34:42,636 --> 00:34:45,005

and work with him in Marysville.

637

00:34:45,005 --> 00:34:50,525

So I had been living in Clintonville, um,

and he kind of was like, you know, I think

638

00:34:50,525 --> 00:34:52,176

you just need to get outta that situation.

639

00:34:52,505 --> 00:34:57,156

And now, like, reflecting on it, it was

very much like the savior complex, right?

640

00:34:57,156 --> 00:34:57,846

Like it was.

641

00:34:58,131 --> 00:35:00,621

Uh, saving me Right.

642

00:35:00,621 --> 00:35:02,271

From a terrible situation.

643

00:35:02,271 --> 00:35:02,631

Right.

644

00:35:03,171 --> 00:35:06,136

Um, so yeah, like one

day I just like kind of.

645

00:35:06,921 --> 00:35:08,601

I was like, okay, I

guess I should do this.

646

00:35:08,931 --> 00:35:12,351

Um, I mean, being around dogs,

that was like literally my dream.

647

00:35:12,351 --> 00:35:13,131

I was like, okay.

648

00:35:13,791 --> 00:35:20,151

Um, so yeah, one day with his Jeep,

he just came and packed up my stuff.

649

00:35:20,151 --> 00:35:24,681

Um, looking back at it as well,

he tried to instigate a fight

650

00:35:24,681 --> 00:35:29,751

with my ex-boyfriend at the time,

which I was just like, whoa, wild.

651

00:35:29,811 --> 00:35:33,501

Um, now all of these things

are clicking like, you know.

652

00:35:34,656 --> 00:35:38,646

So anyway, I forget exactly what

date it was that I officially

653

00:35:38,646 --> 00:35:42,936

moved out there, but it was I think

late September, early October.

654

00:35:43,266 --> 00:35:44,976

Um, and granted I had.

655

00:35:45,681 --> 00:35:48,411

Zero experience in animal rescue.

656

00:35:48,441 --> 00:35:50,091

So I was fresh.

657

00:35:50,601 --> 00:35:52,611

I had no idea what to expect.

658

00:35:53,151 --> 00:35:57,681

Um, you know, I thought of him, I

think like many other people, like

659

00:35:57,681 --> 00:35:59,601

a true professional in the field.

660

00:36:00,081 --> 00:36:02,961

Um, so I moved into this

like little farmhouse.

661

00:36:02,961 --> 00:36:05,271

I'm not sure if you've been

there, if you went there at all.

662

00:36:05,271 --> 00:36:05,481

Okay.

663

00:36:06,081 --> 00:36:08,301

Um, really worn down.

664

00:36:08,421 --> 00:36:08,841

Um.

665

00:36:09,876 --> 00:36:13,596

There was a barn, there was

yards, like really worn down.

666

00:36:13,596 --> 00:36:14,496

I had no idea.

667

00:36:14,766 --> 00:36:17,466

You know, I was like, okay, maybe

is the, this is animal rescue.

668

00:36:17,526 --> 00:36:17,946

Okay.

669

00:36:18,876 --> 00:36:24,576

So from that point, um, I started

working for him more on the.

670

00:36:25,506 --> 00:36:27,216

Dog training aspect.

671

00:36:27,246 --> 00:36:29,766

So I was not involved anything with act.

672

00:36:30,516 --> 00:36:38,376

Um, I more so was in charge of hanging out

with the house dogs and not the barn dogs.

673

00:36:38,886 --> 00:36:44,106

Um, and you know, I was scheduling

like his appointments for like save

674

00:36:44,106 --> 00:36:48,666

them dog training and doing all like

the customer service based stuff.

675

00:36:49,146 --> 00:36:49,386

Um.

676

00:36:50,376 --> 00:36:51,246

So if I can ask

677

00:36:51,246 --> 00:36:54,906

DrG: you what, what was the difference as

far as the house dogs and the barn dogs?

678

00:36:55,416 --> 00:36:55,686

Meg Zell: Yeah.

679

00:36:55,686 --> 00:37:03,396

He kind of always mentioned that

the barn dogs were like, uh, the

680

00:37:03,396 --> 00:37:05,526

harder to deal with dogs, right?

681

00:37:05,526 --> 00:37:06,936

So like Remy was there.

682

00:37:07,476 --> 00:37:08,556

Zach was there.

683

00:37:08,556 --> 00:37:10,986

I think a few others maybe in and out.

684

00:37:11,616 --> 00:37:12,246

Um.

685

00:37:12,621 --> 00:37:15,711

Like I said, I just like went

with the flow and I had no idea.

686

00:37:15,711 --> 00:37:21,261

So, uh, he said like he, that space was

more so like for the volunteers of act to

687

00:37:21,261 --> 00:37:25,911

come and he, it was like his realm, like

he did everything with the barn dogs.

688

00:37:26,691 --> 00:37:31,791

So I did mainly like,

yeah, house dogs, right?

689

00:37:31,911 --> 00:37:33,831

Which were the dogs that were, I think.

690

00:37:34,731 --> 00:37:38,601

Being boarded for like the board and

train with save them dog training.

691

00:37:38,601 --> 00:37:39,081

I don't know.

692

00:37:39,471 --> 00:37:46,581

Um, so anyway, during this time

I did a lot of like, you know,

693

00:37:46,791 --> 00:37:51,111

the scheduling, um, and customer

service for Save Them Dog training.

694

00:37:51,621 --> 00:37:55,941

Um, meanwhile, this entire time

I did not get paid one penny.

695

00:37:56,391 --> 00:37:58,071

I didn't have to pay rent.

696

00:37:58,311 --> 00:38:02,091

Um, and, uh, he paid

everything for food, but I.

697

00:38:02,796 --> 00:38:04,866

Was never paid for any of my work.

698

00:38:04,956 --> 00:38:12,966

Um, and he was gone all the time, uh,

whether it be appointments, um, or

699

00:38:13,026 --> 00:38:17,046

just like running errands or, uh, I

honestly have no idea what he was doing.

700

00:38:17,496 --> 00:38:22,176

Um, but he was always on the road,

always traveling and whatever.

701

00:38:22,176 --> 00:38:28,716

So it was a lot of me with these

dogs without any previous experience.

702

00:38:28,986 --> 00:38:31,416

Uh, you know, looking

back at it, I'm like.

703

00:38:31,791 --> 00:38:33,231

Thankful I never got hurt.

704

00:38:33,591 --> 00:38:33,741

Right?

705

00:38:33,861 --> 00:38:34,281

Meg Zell: Really?

706

00:38:34,341 --> 00:38:36,351

'cause I like really had no experience.

707

00:38:36,861 --> 00:38:40,881

Um, but I just, I think there

was like some taken advantage of

708

00:38:41,001 --> 00:38:43,041

just like my, like love for dogs.

709

00:38:43,551 --> 00:38:47,901

Um, and like this place was so

run down, it was disgusting.

710

00:38:48,441 --> 00:38:53,241

Um, I tried really hard to like

clean all the time and they were

711

00:38:53,241 --> 00:38:59,061

like mice and yeah, it was just very

rundown and, and not good standards.

712

00:38:59,481 --> 00:39:00,951

Um, and so.

713

00:39:01,671 --> 00:39:04,581

Yeah, I, um,

714

00:39:06,801 --> 00:39:10,971

our relationship ended up just like

being extremely, extremely toxic.

715

00:39:11,481 --> 00:39:17,301

Um, ironically more toxic than the

previous relationship I was in.

716

00:39:17,691 --> 00:39:22,281

So I think there is something with

like this pattern of like the savior.

717

00:39:23,421 --> 00:39:26,841

Mentality and, but then you're

actually, the reality of the

718

00:39:26,841 --> 00:39:31,221

experience is far worse than what

you had, what you were previously in.

719

00:39:31,971 --> 00:39:32,781

Um,

720

00:39:33,447 --> 00:39:36,477

DrG: from listening to what

you're saying, we hear about like.

721

00:39:37,077 --> 00:39:39,027

Survivors of domestic violence.

722

00:39:39,237 --> 00:39:42,657

That's that the perpetrator isolates them.

723

00:39:42,927 --> 00:39:46,317

Oh, it sounds like, you know, he

took you away and then they take

724

00:39:46,317 --> 00:39:48,447

away their financial strength.

725

00:39:48,777 --> 00:39:48,927

Yeah.

726

00:39:48,927 --> 00:39:51,027

So that you have to be

completely dependent.

727

00:39:51,297 --> 00:39:51,387

Mm-hmm.

728

00:39:51,657 --> 00:39:55,797

Uh, and then after a certain

period of time, then they become

729

00:39:55,797 --> 00:39:57,957

emotionally or physically abusive.

730

00:39:58,257 --> 00:39:58,437

Meg Zell: Yep.

731

00:39:59,742 --> 00:40:00,312

Absolutely.

732

00:40:00,312 --> 00:40:03,882

And like I, I'm from a large family.

733

00:40:03,882 --> 00:40:05,172

I'm the youngest of eight kids.

734

00:40:05,562 --> 00:40:09,522

Um, I originally was from Bell, fountain,

Ohio and then moved to Columbus.

735

00:40:09,522 --> 00:40:11,682

So Marysville was where we were living.

736

00:40:11,682 --> 00:40:12,792

It was right in the middle.

737

00:40:13,212 --> 00:40:21,072

Um, and I was extremely,

uh, isolated from my family.

738

00:40:21,492 --> 00:40:23,472

Um, and.

739

00:40:24,507 --> 00:40:27,417

Truly, like looking back at

it, I, yeah, it was exactly

740

00:40:27,417 --> 00:40:28,497

what you were talking about.

741

00:40:28,947 --> 00:40:32,907

Um, and not to say like, I am

like this perfect person, right?

742

00:40:32,907 --> 00:40:34,677

I was having my own issues.

743

00:40:35,067 --> 00:40:38,547

Um, I was using alcohol to medicate.

744

00:40:38,937 --> 00:40:43,827

Um, and I've been in therapy

for like eight years trying to

745

00:40:43,827 --> 00:40:46,917

like, resolve a lot of stuff.

746

00:40:46,977 --> 00:40:50,667

Um, and I didn't really.

747

00:40:51,627 --> 00:40:53,367

Understand how.

748

00:40:54,342 --> 00:41:01,842

Intense that situation was, um, until he

got sentenced and then there was a huge

749

00:41:01,872 --> 00:41:03,822

weight that was just like lifted off.

750

00:41:04,362 --> 00:41:09,852

Um, so yeah, I never, looking back

at it, really considered myself to

751

00:41:09,852 --> 00:41:11,412

be a victim of domestic violence.

752

00:41:12,317 --> 00:41:13,787

Looking at it.

753

00:41:13,787 --> 00:41:14,687

Absolutely.

754

00:41:14,687 --> 00:41:18,167

I mean, um, and it was less physical.

755

00:41:18,287 --> 00:41:22,607

Uh, there were some weird physical

things, but it was more like, yeah,

756

00:41:22,607 --> 00:41:29,897

that emotional, um, like gaslighting,

manipulation, the amount of times,

757

00:41:29,897 --> 00:41:37,427

like he would just scream and yell, um,

and start fights for like no reason.

758

00:41:37,547 --> 00:41:38,297

Um.

759

00:41:39,402 --> 00:41:42,012

Yeah, it was, it was pretty intense.

760

00:41:42,042 --> 00:41:46,812

Um, and I think I mentioned this

to James Renner, but like one of

761

00:41:46,812 --> 00:41:52,092

the situations that stands out to

me the most of like, uh, a good

762

00:41:52,092 --> 00:41:54,522

example of kind of what happened.

763

00:41:54,582 --> 00:41:58,212

Um, Stephanie and I had been driving to a.

764

00:41:59,457 --> 00:42:05,007

Client's house a few hours away and he

got really frustrated me at me for like

765

00:42:05,007 --> 00:42:07,167

a scheduling conflict that happened.

766

00:42:07,707 --> 00:42:11,517

Um, and it ended up being like a

really intense fight in the car.

767

00:42:11,517 --> 00:42:17,067

And at one point in the fight he

told me to, I was in the passenger

768

00:42:17,067 --> 00:42:21,117

seat, he told me to open the door so

he could push me out into traffic.

769

00:42:21,867 --> 00:42:22,287

Wow.

770

00:42:22,587 --> 00:42:31,137

Um, yeah, he also abandoned me in a

parking lot on Thanksgiving, um, because

771

00:42:31,137 --> 00:42:37,497

I, we got in an argument and he had his

son with him and so he abandoned me and

772

00:42:37,497 --> 00:42:39,207

I had to have my sister come pick me up.

773

00:42:39,777 --> 00:42:40,497

Um.

774

00:42:41,022 --> 00:42:43,902

So he is doing this, these things

to you in front of his child?

775

00:42:44,142 --> 00:42:44,712

Yes.

776

00:42:44,712 --> 00:42:45,102

Yeah.

777

00:42:45,162 --> 00:42:45,612

Yeah.

778

00:42:45,612 --> 00:42:54,072

And he, um, you know, he used his

previous girlfriend Shelby as a, um, a

779

00:42:54,072 --> 00:42:59,802

person that he like, always pinned me

to, like, uh, his ex expectations of me

780

00:42:59,802 --> 00:43:05,562

were directly related to what he, his

feelings towards Shelby in, in some way.

781

00:43:06,012 --> 00:43:07,542

Um, so yeah.

782

00:43:08,457 --> 00:43:12,387

All in all, it was just

a very unhealthy aspect.

783

00:43:12,447 --> 00:43:18,957

Um, when it came to Remy specifically,

if you wanna go down that, um, I,

784

00:43:19,587 --> 00:43:21,417

he kept everything very private.

785

00:43:22,737 --> 00:43:28,527

I never saw personal text messages, never

saw personal emails or anything like that.

786

00:43:28,947 --> 00:43:34,917

Um, and I think we all can tell how he

just is a pathological liar at this point.

787

00:43:35,337 --> 00:43:36,357

Um, so.

788

00:43:37,362 --> 00:43:41,082

If I can remember correctly,

uh, 'cause that was so long ago.

789

00:43:41,382 --> 00:43:45,192

It was December 28th,

so just after Christmas.

790

00:43:45,192 --> 00:43:49,662

And, um, his son was here, so I

also had to take care of his son,

791

00:43:50,052 --> 00:43:52,182

um, when he was around as well.

792

00:43:53,052 --> 00:43:56,202

And we had just gotten home from an event.

793

00:43:56,892 --> 00:44:02,112

Um, and yeah, he, it was like late

at night and he, I, I believe,

794

00:44:02,202 --> 00:44:05,202

or even the next day, I'm unsure.

795

00:44:05,562 --> 00:44:06,612

Wh which it was.

796

00:44:06,612 --> 00:44:10,002

But, um, he c basically came in

from the barn and said, oh my

797

00:44:10,002 --> 00:44:14,532

gosh, Remy attacked a dog and, uh,

attacked Zach and all this stuff.

798

00:44:14,532 --> 00:44:20,052

And I just was like, okay, I like

to, I didn't know anything, so I took

799

00:44:20,052 --> 00:44:22,752

his word for, you know, like, okay.

800

00:44:22,752 --> 00:44:25,092

Remy must've been a really aggressive dog.

801

00:44:25,542 --> 00:44:28,932

Um, I had only been around

Remy maybe like twice.

802

00:44:29,502 --> 00:44:32,292

Um, I took a picture of him and

I think I was around like him.

803

00:44:32,657 --> 00:44:33,497

One other time.

804

00:44:33,977 --> 00:44:34,217

Um, so

805

00:44:34,217 --> 00:44:34,727

DrG: Remy was

806

00:44:34,727 --> 00:44:35,537

Meg Zell: always outside in

807

00:44:35,537 --> 00:44:36,587

DrG: the baring from the get go?

808

00:44:36,587 --> 00:44:36,677

Yes.

809

00:44:37,007 --> 00:44:37,367

Meg Zell: Yep.

810

00:44:38,537 --> 00:44:39,017

Yeah.

811

00:44:39,107 --> 00:44:40,397

Um, always.

812

00:44:40,817 --> 00:44:46,157

Um, and now like of course I have

so much like shame and guilt and,

813

00:44:46,667 --> 00:44:51,017

you know, all that stuff for like,

not knowing any better, um, right.

814

00:44:51,077 --> 00:44:52,037

Like goodness.

815

00:44:52,427 --> 00:44:58,367

Um, but yeah, so he told me the same

story that he told everybody else.

816

00:44:58,787 --> 00:45:02,087

Um, I had no idea who.

817

00:45:02,772 --> 00:45:09,702

Um, you know, any of the previous

rescues were of any of the dogs that

818

00:45:09,702 --> 00:45:11,562

he had, I had no contact with them.

819

00:45:11,832 --> 00:45:13,932

So I had no way of communicating.

820

00:45:14,112 --> 00:45:14,712

Um, I.

821

00:45:16,032 --> 00:45:17,022

About like what happened.

822

00:45:17,022 --> 00:45:20,262

So I had no idea he was lying to people.

823

00:45:20,262 --> 00:45:21,192

I had no idea.

824

00:45:21,192 --> 00:45:25,632

Like he didn't tell the rescues

of the fight that happened,

825

00:45:25,692 --> 00:45:28,152

like, or, or whatever happened.

826

00:45:28,542 --> 00:45:34,392

Um, so it kind of just

went on like no big deal.

827

00:45:34,392 --> 00:45:37,602

That's kind of like how he had it.

828

00:45:37,602 --> 00:45:41,052

He was like, oh yeah,

like Remy was dangerous.

829

00:45:41,052 --> 00:45:43,452

So like, we need to put him down.

830

00:45:43,542 --> 00:45:44,712

And I was like, okay.

831

00:45:45,132 --> 00:45:48,822

So did he kill Zach or what's

the other, did you ever see

832

00:45:48,822 --> 00:45:49,632

DrG: the dog?

833

00:45:50,077 --> 00:45:51,312

Meg Zell: No, no, no, no, no.

834

00:45:51,342 --> 00:45:57,372

Um, and he's, I remember he specifically

told me to not go to the barn.

835

00:45:57,732 --> 00:45:58,332

Um.

836

00:45:59,712 --> 00:46:03,102

I remember him mentioning that

it was like a horri, same thing.

837

00:46:03,102 --> 00:46:05,982

He kind of said to the public when

he came out with everything, that

838

00:46:05,982 --> 00:46:09,462

it was just like the most horrific

scene he's ever experienced.

839

00:46:09,462 --> 00:46:11,052

So I have no idea.

840

00:46:11,622 --> 00:46:14,412

Um, and I have no idea

what happened to Zach.

841

00:46:14,742 --> 00:46:20,142

Uh, yeah, the only thing I can

think of I've been like really

842

00:46:20,142 --> 00:46:22,057

trying to rack my brain around is.

843

00:46:23,367 --> 00:46:30,297

He, um, he collected like a lot of

stuff, like, it was like the outside

844

00:46:30,297 --> 00:46:35,817

property of the house had a lot of

like garbage and all this stuff.

845

00:46:35,817 --> 00:46:39,177

And we took things to the dump because

I was like trying to clean it and I

846

00:46:39,177 --> 00:46:40,617

was like, well, this is disgusting.

847

00:46:41,277 --> 00:46:44,547

Um, and so he went to

the dump pretty often.

848

00:46:45,267 --> 00:46:48,897

So I've been like trying to

like look back and think if they

849

00:46:48,897 --> 00:46:50,427

haven't found Zach's body like.

850

00:46:51,417 --> 00:46:56,217

I think he might've been dumped, you

know, and like, this is totally suspicion.

851

00:46:56,217 --> 00:46:57,567

I don't know the answer.

852

00:46:57,957 --> 00:47:01,377

Um, but he did frequent the dump often.

853

00:47:02,697 --> 00:47:08,307

Um, so yeah, he told me the same

thing he told everybody else, so,

854

00:47:09,097 --> 00:47:12,667

DrG: I think I was the only person that

he didn't tell exactly the same story.

855

00:47:12,817 --> 00:47:13,177

Okay.

856

00:47:13,177 --> 00:47:15,517

'cause when he brought the,

when he brought Remy in.

857

00:47:16,192 --> 00:47:21,172

He said that, um, that Remy had killed

Zach and that Remy was a dangerous

858

00:47:21,172 --> 00:47:25,942

dog, so he had to be euthanized,

but he, he just said like, yeah,

859

00:47:25,942 --> 00:47:27,352

you know, Zach's a little asshole.

860

00:47:27,352 --> 00:47:29,032

And he was loose and he was like.

861

00:47:29,617 --> 00:47:32,587

Taunting Remy from outside of the cage,

and Remy was able to break through the

862

00:47:32,587 --> 00:47:34,117

cage and just grab them and kill them.

863

00:47:34,447 --> 00:47:38,077

So no blood, no blood bath,

no disaster, no nothing.

864

00:47:38,077 --> 00:47:41,437

Just, oh, dog got loose

and killed the other dog.

865

00:47:41,437 --> 00:47:42,067

And then that was it.

866

00:47:42,067 --> 00:47:42,127

Wow.

867

00:47:42,547 --> 00:47:46,627

And you know, because he's a dangerous

dog, he has to be euthanized and

868

00:47:46,747 --> 00:47:50,887

and I believed him because he was

the humane officer and like, I

869

00:47:50,887 --> 00:47:52,837

don't have any reason to doubt it.

870

00:47:52,842 --> 00:47:53,797

Right, right.

871

00:47:53,797 --> 00:47:57,277

So, but, but yeah, it's, it's really.

872

00:47:57,757 --> 00:48:01,567

It was really interesting to

me when I started hearing about

873

00:48:01,567 --> 00:48:04,117

this whole, it was a blood bath.

874

00:48:04,147 --> 00:48:09,307

There was all these injuries, and then

he's him saying that Remy was like so

875

00:48:09,307 --> 00:48:12,517

injured, that that was also part of

the reason why he had to be euthanized.

876

00:48:12,517 --> 00:48:15,697

When the dog had no injuries,

no blood on him, no nothing.

877

00:48:15,727 --> 00:48:17,437

He had like a little scratch on his noses.

878

00:48:17,887 --> 00:48:18,097

Wow.

879

00:48:19,867 --> 00:48:22,117

Meg Zell: Yeah, and I, I feel

like that scratch could have

880

00:48:22,117 --> 00:48:24,187

come from anywhere, you know?

881

00:48:24,772 --> 00:48:26,812

DrG: If he was outside

all the time in the barn.

882

00:48:26,812 --> 00:48:30,442

I mean, just trying to dig underneath

the cages, just trying to anything.

883

00:48:30,442 --> 00:48:35,062

So, I mean, there, it wasn't anything

that I was suspicious that was

884

00:48:35,122 --> 00:48:37,342

from a bite or anything like that.

885

00:48:37,582 --> 00:48:37,972

Right, right.

886

00:48:38,572 --> 00:48:38,992

But

887

00:48:39,202 --> 00:48:39,502

yeah,

888

00:48:39,592 --> 00:48:42,922

DrG: but again, he didn't say

that the dog was, you know, he, he

889

00:48:42,922 --> 00:48:47,812

didn't paint to me the traumatic

event that he told everybody else.

890

00:48:48,172 --> 00:48:48,382

Meg Zell: Right.

891

00:48:48,382 --> 00:48:48,682

So,

892

00:48:49,012 --> 00:48:49,432

DrG: yeah.

893

00:48:50,977 --> 00:48:51,547

Meg Zell: Yeah.

894

00:48:51,787 --> 00:48:57,067

Um, it's been so difficult to, 'cause

I feel like that experience with

895

00:48:57,067 --> 00:49:02,497

Stefan has made me have a hard time

understanding of what reality is.

896

00:49:02,737 --> 00:49:07,627

And I think when anyone's in the, the

same space as somebody who lies so much,

897

00:49:07,627 --> 00:49:09,847

it's like you're questioning yourself.

898

00:49:10,417 --> 00:49:14,647

Um, and that's really messed

with me for a long time.

899

00:49:14,887 --> 00:49:18,097

I, um, I didn't participate in the trial.

900

00:49:18,817 --> 00:49:24,547

Even though, um, I, there was part

of me that really wanted to speak

901

00:49:24,547 --> 00:49:29,437

up, but, um, I was in, I've been

struggling with like some severe

902

00:49:29,437 --> 00:49:31,567

depressions over the last few winters.

903

00:49:31,957 --> 00:49:38,977

Um, and, um, I was in a really rough

spot, um, to the point where I don't

904

00:49:38,977 --> 00:49:43,837

think I would've been able to like, speak

coherently without like falling apart.

905

00:49:44,317 --> 00:49:46,507

Um, so I.

906

00:49:46,972 --> 00:49:48,952

I chose not to participate.

907

00:49:49,372 --> 00:49:55,252

Um, but I can't tell you how

thankful I am for everybody who

908

00:49:55,252 --> 00:49:59,002

did participate because, uh, yeah.

909

00:49:59,482 --> 00:50:04,882

Um, it's, yeah, I think he's

getting what he deserves.

910

00:50:04,882 --> 00:50:05,692

Absolutely.

911

00:50:05,967 --> 00:50:09,532

And I also think part of this,

you know, I wanted it to be.

912

00:50:11,002 --> 00:50:14,032

Like this specific case all about

the dogs, and it would've been

913

00:50:14,032 --> 00:50:19,402

really hard for me to separate, you

know, what he did to the dogs versus

914

00:50:19,402 --> 00:50:21,952

like the abuse he gave to females.

915

00:50:22,552 --> 00:50:27,622

So that was like, I didn't want

to like, you know, sidetrack

916

00:50:27,622 --> 00:50:29,422

and, and to this realm.

917

00:50:29,512 --> 00:50:30,772

But yeah.

918

00:50:31,402 --> 00:50:36,442

DrG: So you mentioned before,

uh, and, and about what.

919

00:50:37,342 --> 00:50:39,202

How you say what ended the relationship?

920

00:50:39,292 --> 00:50:39,592

Yeah.

921

00:50:39,592 --> 00:50:42,562

So how did that, how did, how

did everything come to an end?

922

00:50:43,012 --> 00:50:43,492

Meg Zell: Yeah.

923

00:50:43,492 --> 00:50:48,982

You know, I started having like

suspicions of just like, you know,

924

00:50:49,342 --> 00:50:51,172

it wasn't a great relationship.

925

00:50:51,232 --> 00:50:55,372

Um, and we fought all the time and, um.

926

00:50:56,227 --> 00:50:58,687

It was just one of those situations

where I just was starting to

927

00:50:58,687 --> 00:51:00,487

feel like extremely hopeless.

928

00:51:00,847 --> 00:51:05,437

So at that point, after had, having

been isolated from my family, you

929

00:51:05,437 --> 00:51:10,897

know, I started reaching out to my

family, um, and talking to friends.

930

00:51:10,987 --> 00:51:11,137

Um, I.

931

00:51:12,547 --> 00:51:17,617

And, uh, yeah, the, I think he

had an issue with me because

932

00:51:17,617 --> 00:51:20,137

I stood up to him a lot.

933

00:51:20,527 --> 00:51:26,437

Um, so, uh, yeah, we really just didn't

see eye to eye on a lot of things.

934

00:51:26,467 --> 00:51:30,067

Um, and so I think we both

mutually were like, this is just

935

00:51:30,097 --> 00:51:31,957

not gonna work out kind of thing.

936

00:51:32,047 --> 00:51:37,597

Um, and like looking back, I know

I probably try to like save the

937

00:51:37,597 --> 00:51:40,867

relationship even though I don't

even think I had like, true, like.

938

00:51:41,872 --> 00:51:43,822

Feelings necessarily, you know?

939

00:51:44,362 --> 00:51:44,452

Mm-hmm.

940

00:51:44,692 --> 00:51:56,087

Um, but yeah, uh, I moved out

early March, um, and I remember I.

941

00:51:56,197 --> 00:51:58,657

My mom and my sister came and got me.

942

00:51:58,657 --> 00:52:05,437

And, um, talking to my sister, uh,

she mentioned like the second all

943

00:52:05,437 --> 00:52:08,257

of my stuff and got into her car.

944

00:52:08,257 --> 00:52:11,167

She like gagged at the smell.

945

00:52:11,647 --> 00:52:17,917

Um, and it was just like a very just

unclean kind of gross situation.

946

00:52:18,007 --> 00:52:20,977

Um, but I moved.

947

00:52:21,547 --> 00:52:22,027

Out.

948

00:52:22,087 --> 00:52:28,537

Um, and also I wanted to bring this

up because this kind of shows how

949

00:52:28,537 --> 00:52:30,637

he was with like money in general.

950

00:52:30,637 --> 00:52:31,087

I think.

951

00:52:31,147 --> 00:52:31,747

Um,

952

00:52:33,757 --> 00:52:39,127

I, like I mentioned, I had never

been paid by him, um, but I was

953

00:52:39,127 --> 00:52:43,477

previously a hairstylist, so I got a

tax return and he convinced me to put

954

00:52:43,477 --> 00:52:45,217

my tax return in his bank account.

955

00:52:45,967 --> 00:52:46,147

Huh.

956

00:52:46,447 --> 00:52:51,817

Um, and at the end of our relationship

I was asking for that money back.

957

00:52:51,847 --> 00:52:56,017

That was literally all the

money I had was the tax return.

958

00:52:56,077 --> 00:53:03,247

Um, and you know, he got really,

um, intense when I asked for that

959

00:53:03,247 --> 00:53:08,677

money back so much so that I had

to like threaten like a lawyer.

960

00:53:09,487 --> 00:53:10,087

To get it back.

961

00:53:10,087 --> 00:53:14,887

So finally he met me at like a coffee shop

and gave me the money back, but that just

962

00:53:14,887 --> 00:53:17,197

kind of showcases how he was with money.

963

00:53:17,617 --> 00:53:23,617

Um, and he kind of made it seem like,

you know, gosh, if somebody just could

964

00:53:23,617 --> 00:53:28,117

like invest in me and like give me

money and all this stuff, then like, you

965

00:53:28,117 --> 00:53:30,457

know, he was always searching for that.

966

00:53:30,517 --> 00:53:32,797

Um, if that makes sense.

967

00:53:33,577 --> 00:53:35,107

But, uh, I had.

968

00:53:36,637 --> 00:53:41,227

Been on a phone call with my friend,

um, who had lived in Seattle and

969

00:53:41,587 --> 00:53:45,517

mentioned to her like kind of

where I was at, and she, she was

970

00:53:45,517 --> 00:53:46,567

like, do you just need to get away?

971

00:53:46,567 --> 00:53:49,657

And I was like, yes, I would

like to get away, please.

972

00:53:49,717 --> 00:53:54,607

Um, so at that time we decided, um,

I decided that I was just gonna move

973

00:53:54,607 --> 00:53:56,797

to Seattle and kind of start fresh.

974

00:53:57,367 --> 00:54:00,037

Um, one of the best decisions

I've made, I will say,

975

00:54:00,427 --> 00:54:04,807

DrG: How surprised were you to find out

about all this stuff that he had done?

976

00:54:04,807 --> 00:54:07,627

Because, you know, it's

like we hear about, like you

977

00:54:07,627 --> 00:54:09,247

said, the one mistake, right?

978

00:54:09,247 --> 00:54:13,087

And it's like, okay, you know, somebody

can make one mistake and whatever, but

979

00:54:13,417 --> 00:54:16,627

this is like a pattern of activity.

980

00:54:16,927 --> 00:54:17,437

Yeah.

981

00:54:17,467 --> 00:54:17,797

Cruelty.

982

00:54:19,087 --> 00:54:22,357

Meg Zell: I mean, um, physically sick.

983

00:54:23,107 --> 00:54:31,267

Um, I, yeah, I couldn't believe

I was in such close contact with

984

00:54:31,267 --> 00:54:34,777

somebody who, um, was like that.

985

00:54:35,017 --> 00:54:43,417

Uh, and you know, I think it shows

the skill that he has of, of lying.

986

00:54:43,867 --> 00:54:44,197

Um.

987

00:54:45,412 --> 00:54:51,352

So, yeah, I think the ironic part of all

of this is like my original intent to

988

00:54:51,352 --> 00:54:55,672

be an animal rescue was something that

the Franklin County Dog Shelter did.

989

00:54:56,272 --> 00:55:02,002

And um, it's just ironic that I ended

up being in a situation where this

990

00:55:02,002 --> 00:55:05,062

guy was doing something similar.

991

00:55:06,092 --> 00:55:09,002

DrG: I know that Amanda had contacted you.

992

00:55:09,062 --> 00:55:09,122

Yeah.

993

00:55:09,122 --> 00:55:11,882

Was that while you were in a

relationship or was that after?

994

00:55:12,152 --> 00:55:13,232

Meg Zell: That was after.

995

00:55:13,232 --> 00:55:13,532

Yeah.

996

00:55:13,532 --> 00:55:16,832

She had sent me a, um, a few messages.

997

00:55:16,922 --> 00:55:21,572

Um, we didn't really talk that much,

but we befriended each other on Facebook

998

00:55:21,572 --> 00:55:25,142

and she sent me a few messages, kind

of just like I wanted to warn you.

999

00:55:25,652 --> 00:55:26,252

Um.

1000

00:55:27,122 --> 00:55:33,962

Uh, and, um, you know, asking if he kind

of turned psycho like he did with her.

1001

00:55:34,622 --> 00:55:39,392

Um, and so we were able to exchange

and, um, yeah, it, it broke my

1002

00:55:39,392 --> 00:55:41,612

heart, um, to hear of her passing.

1003

00:55:41,612 --> 00:55:41,642

I.

1004

00:55:42,677 --> 00:55:45,257

And it also breaks my heart.

1005

00:55:45,317 --> 00:55:46,097

Um, with Shelby.

1006

00:55:46,097 --> 00:55:49,007

I don't, I never knew her

personally obviously, so I don't

1007

00:55:49,007 --> 00:55:50,477

wanna speak too much on that.

1008

00:55:50,537 --> 00:55:57,497

But the way in which he used her to

compare, like our relationship, um,

1009

00:55:57,497 --> 00:56:00,377

she seemed like a really special human.

1010

00:56:00,497 --> 00:56:02,387

Um, and just.

1011

00:56:03,287 --> 00:56:08,627

Having experienced what I experienced

in six months, I really, really feel for

1012

00:56:08,627 --> 00:56:12,227

any woman who was around him for longer.

1013

00:56:12,917 --> 00:56:19,817

Um, so yeah, I can only imagine, um, the

trauma and abuse that these women, I.

1014

00:56:20,312 --> 00:56:20,882

Had.

1015

00:56:21,002 --> 00:56:27,872

Um, and so when all of this came to

light and then all these new suspicions

1016

00:56:27,872 --> 00:56:31,922

with, you know, the Mara Murray and

all this stuff, I felt just like this

1017

00:56:31,922 --> 00:56:36,092

need to like speak up to let people

know that, you know, he was doing these

1018

00:56:36,092 --> 00:56:42,212

horrible things to dogs, obviously like

wild, but he was also abusing women.

1019

00:56:43,502 --> 00:56:43,772

DrG: Yeah.

1020

00:56:43,772 --> 00:56:47,132

And there is a link between animal

cruelty and interpersonal violence,

1021

00:56:47,192 --> 00:56:52,682

and Absolutely people will use animals

within domestic violence situations.

1022

00:56:52,952 --> 00:56:53,162

Yeah.

1023

00:56:53,252 --> 00:56:57,932

Um, so, you know, it, it,

he fits a profile, right?

1024

00:56:59,402 --> 00:57:02,852

Meg Zell: Uh, I can only imagine, I.

1025

00:57:03,107 --> 00:57:09,467

Um, like other women who, uh, have dated

him and what they're going through.

1026

00:57:09,467 --> 00:57:13,037

So I just wanted to be a voice for

that and wanted to be a voice for,

1027

00:57:13,877 --> 00:57:18,167

um, unfortunately the dogs that

I was around, I have no idea what

1028

00:57:18,167 --> 00:57:24,527

happened to any of those dogs, which

is like, it really bothers me so much.

1029

00:57:24,607 --> 00:57:24,937

. Yeah.

1030

00:57:24,937 --> 00:57:25,897

And I wanna like.

1031

00:57:26,872 --> 00:57:31,822

Make it clear like he

preys on vulnerable people.

1032

00:57:32,122 --> 00:57:35,182

So I was in a really vulnerable spot.

1033

00:57:35,482 --> 00:57:38,602

Um, I was not dealing with stuff.

1034

00:57:38,602 --> 00:57:42,472

I was starting to have

depression, um, and.

1035

00:57:44,077 --> 00:57:50,647

I think he latches onto dogs

who are vulnerable and women

1036

00:57:50,977 --> 00:57:52,447

who are vulnerable as well.

1037

00:57:52,447 --> 00:57:55,927

So I wanted to make it clear, like I,

it's not like I was, I've been like

1038

00:57:55,927 --> 00:57:58,027

this perfect person and all the stuff.

1039

00:57:58,027 --> 00:57:59,707

I was definitely dealing with some stuff.

1040

00:57:59,827 --> 00:58:03,637

Um, but I think he, he

takes advantage of that.

1041

00:58:04,777 --> 00:58:05,017

DrG: Yeah.

1042

00:58:05,017 --> 00:58:06,037

I think that.

1043

00:58:06,907 --> 00:58:11,047

Some people wonder about not

just you, but other victims

1044

00:58:11,047 --> 00:58:12,997

that did not come in to speak.

1045

00:58:12,997 --> 00:58:18,367

Yeah, and in my experience, just from

what I'm, what I see is that there

1046

00:58:18,367 --> 00:58:21,037

is that concern of, I'm gonna come

in, I'm gonna speak, I'm gonna be

1047

00:58:21,037 --> 00:58:22,567

vulnerable, and nothing's gonna happen.

1048

00:58:22,567 --> 00:58:25,897

And then people are going to

look at me differently, right?

1049

00:58:25,957 --> 00:58:29,617

And I'm going to be this

victim or whatever, and then

1050

00:58:29,617 --> 00:58:30,757

he's just gonna go free.

1051

00:58:31,387 --> 00:58:35,947

And once he is sentenced though, and you

know that he's being held responsible

1052

00:58:35,947 --> 00:58:39,457

for his actions and he's put away

so he cannot hurt anybody else, it

1053

00:58:39,457 --> 00:58:41,827

does bring some degree of freedom.

1054

00:58:42,322 --> 00:58:44,122

Meg Zell: Absolutely in validation.

1055

00:58:44,242 --> 00:58:49,642

Um, because I think he was so good

at manipulation where he made, I'm

1056

00:58:49,642 --> 00:58:54,142

pretty sure any woman who's been

around him, um, uh, can attest to this.

1057

00:58:54,142 --> 00:58:57,382

Like he made us believe

that we were the issue.

1058

00:58:57,772 --> 00:59:01,462

So, like I said, it's really

bent my understanding of reality.

1059

00:59:01,582 --> 00:59:02,182

Um.

1060

00:59:03,127 --> 00:59:06,607

And, and again, not to say

I've never had an issue, of

1061

00:59:06,607 --> 00:59:07,987

course, like no one's perfect.

1062

00:59:08,557 --> 00:59:13,477

Um, but when it came to that specific

relationship, I mean, yeah, he's a

1063

00:59:13,477 --> 00:59:19,447

very skilled, skilled, um, con artist.

1064

00:59:20,467 --> 00:59:27,277

So absolutely this, this gave lots

of validation, um, and support.

1065

00:59:27,277 --> 00:59:29,317

I like reconnected with a lot of people.

1066

00:59:29,767 --> 00:59:30,457

Um.

1067

00:59:31,282 --> 00:59:33,862

Because I think once this

trial was happening, I just

1068

00:59:33,862 --> 00:59:35,182

wanted to run so far away.

1069

00:59:35,212 --> 00:59:42,172

I just like it, it brought up so many

feelings of like abuse, um, and I was

1070

00:59:42,172 --> 00:59:47,812

just like, I wish I like looking back, I

wish I would've been able to participate,

1071

00:59:47,812 --> 00:59:50,332

but I just don't think that was my time.

1072

00:59:50,482 --> 00:59:52,972

I think this is now my

time to speak up, you know?

1073

00:59:53,512 --> 00:59:55,942

Um, so thank you so much for having me.

1074

00:59:56,482 --> 00:59:58,282

DrG: Yeah, no, thank you for sharing.

1075

00:59:58,312 --> 01:00:03,952

You know, it's when, when I gave my

victim statement, it was, I didn't

1076

01:00:03,952 --> 01:00:05,782

realize how hard it was, right?

1077

01:00:05,782 --> 01:00:05,842

Yeah.

1078

01:00:05,842 --> 01:00:10,012

Because I'm always very objective and

I work with animal cruelty and neglect.

1079

01:00:10,012 --> 01:00:13,192

So the whole time I'm

just focused on that.

1080

01:00:13,552 --> 01:00:18,562

But then the victim impact statement

was about me at a personal level,

1081

01:00:19,042 --> 01:00:22,102

and I thought I was okay, and

then I got up there and I was not.

1082

01:00:22,132 --> 01:00:22,462

Okay.

1083

01:00:22,822 --> 01:00:25,882

Yeah, and, and you know, it's.

1084

01:00:26,362 --> 01:00:30,652

It makes me realize just

how difficult it is Yes.

1085

01:00:30,652 --> 01:00:32,872

To, to speak up and speak out.

1086

01:00:32,962 --> 01:00:36,412

So I'm really thankful

that, that you are here.

1087

01:00:36,832 --> 01:00:37,252

Gosh.

1088

01:00:37,372 --> 01:00:37,762

Meg Zell: Yeah.

1089

01:00:37,912 --> 01:00:42,082

And I'm so thankful for everybody to

have the courage, um, to stand up and I.

1090

01:00:43,822 --> 01:00:44,212

Yeah.

1091

01:00:44,302 --> 01:00:47,302

Like, goodness, it, it

takes so much courage.

1092

01:00:47,422 --> 01:00:48,112

So, yeah.

1093

01:00:48,367 --> 01:00:48,657

DrG: Yeah.

1094

01:00:48,982 --> 01:00:50,542

Well, thank you so much.

1095

01:00:50,602 --> 01:00:53,662

And again, I'm glad that you're,

that you're doing better and

1096

01:00:53,662 --> 01:00:55,432

you're in a i in a better place.

1097

01:00:55,582 --> 01:00:55,732

Yes.

1098

01:00:55,732 --> 01:00:58,192

And yeah, little by

little but little forward.

1099

01:00:58,882 --> 01:00:59,152

Yeah,

1100

01:00:59,902 --> 01:00:59,903

Dr. G:

1101

01:00:59,903 --> 01:01:05,454

The link between human violence and animal

violence is real, and a lot of people that

1102

01:01:05,694 --> 01:01:08,124

harm animals, harm people, and vice versa.

1103

01:01:08,484 --> 01:01:12,384

So, very important to speak, and I

wanna say thanks to the people that

1104

01:01:12,494 --> 01:01:14,034

spoke on today's episode about it.

1105

01:01:14,544 --> 01:01:18,474

And again, if you or anyone you

know is in need of help, please

1106

01:01:18,474 --> 01:01:23,264

contact the National Domestic

Violence Hotline at 1(800)799-7233.

1107

01:01:25,704 --> 01:01:27,864

Thank you for listening,

and thank you for caring.