This podcast features Maria, an experienced educator, and Brooke, a former student, discussing inclusive education, neurodiversity, and the challenges and successes in supporting students with additional needs. They share insights on school support systems, the impact of policies like EHCPs, and personal stories that highlight the importance of understanding and advocacy in education.

[email protected]

today on the podcast, I'm speaking to Maria Rogers,

2

assistant head, personalized

learning, and to Brooke Price.

3

She's doing work experience volunteering

4

We're about to discuss SEND in

schools, whether the UK education

5

system supports inclusion.

6

We talk about government policy on the

subject, and we find out from Brooke what

7

it's really like to be neurodivergent

in school in the 21st century.

8

This is an episode filled with insight,

and certainly I learnt a lot from it.

9

I think you might do too.

10

Come with me as we jump into it.

11

Here we go

12

Speaker 2: Welcome to Mount

Kelly Conversations, the podcast

13

from Mount Kelly in Devon.

14

In each episode, we have conversations

with pupils, with staff, and with other

15

people in the school community to find

out more about life at the school.

16

Come with us now as we get

right into this episode.

17

Simon: So I'm very excited

for this podcast episode.

18

We've got Maria and we've got Brooke.

19

Going to start off talking with Maria.

20

Maria, great to have

you here on the podcast.

21

How are you today?

22

Maria: I am great, thank you very much.

23

It's a glorious Friday down here in

Tavistock at the moment, so it's lovely

24

Simon: Very good.

25

Very, very good.

26

Tell us a little bit about what we're

talking about here today on the podcast

27

Maria: I've been lucky enough to work here

at Mount Kelly for nearly nine years now.

28

I moved down here as, as

basically as the school SENCO.

29

And it's been quite a journey

really working with children

30

with additional needs.

31

And I guess the thing that's struck

me most and that I love most about

32

this place is that we've got a really

diverse wonderful school community.

33

You know, both sort of

teachers and pupils.

34

And the more that…

35

the longer that I've stayed here, the more

I've come into contact with some really

36

astonishing young people who, you know,

may be s- really strong sports people

37

or really strong artists or academics,

just really incredibly creative people.

38

But they're also on this wonderful

neurodivergent sort of spectrum, this

39

umbrella of so many different things.

40

And I think what I really wanted to

do was to give them an opportunity

41

to talk a little bit about what

life at school is like for them.

42

You know, there are some great

things about being here, and

43

there are some things I know that

they find incredibly difficult.

44

So, Brooke, who was a, is an ex-pupil and

has has just sort of had her first year

45

at university, she kindly came back and

said that she would like to sort of be

46

part of things and, and talk to people

about her experiences a little bit.

47

So that's where the whole thing came from,

48

Simon: Fantastic.

49

Okay, well, I'm gonna…

50

w- of course, we're gonna be

talking to Brooke in a moment.

51

Before we do that, Maria, there

are a couple of words there.

52

I just want to make sure that

people who are listening to this

53

understand exactly what they, what

they are and what you mean by those.

54

So, so SENCo, I think, is one of these

words that we often hear, but, but

55

what, what does SENCo actually mean?

56

Maria: Yeah, sure.

57

It's it's, it's a special

educational needs coordinator.

58

So every school has a SENCo to make

sure that really to coordinate the

59

support and to make sure that, you

know, e- every young person, as far as

60

we possibly can, is getting, you know,

the, the additional sort of arrangements

61

and adjustments that they need

62

Simon: And you also mentioned

about neurodivergent.

63

I think most people who are listening

to this will understand what that

64

means, but just to, just to make sure

that everybody's fully on board, how

65

would you describe neurodivergent?

66

What does that actually mean?

67

Maria: So for me personally, and Brooke

may well correct me later, absolutely

68

neurodivergence is, is sort of it's

an umbrella, a wonderful umbrella term

69

for many of our young people who may be

dyslexic, they may be autistic, dyspraxic

70

all kinds of sort of, of, of differences

in the way that they learn, in the way

71

that you know, sort of think and operate

that sometimes means that they struggle

72

within a rigid school environment in

a sort of a, a Victorian classroom.

73

But once they actually get out there

and spread their wings or we can do

74

as much as we can to help them do

that, then, you know, they are our

75

future leaders, our creators, and our

business people, future business people

76

Simon: Absolutely right.

77

Absolutely right.

78

Now, before we jump across to Brooke,

Maria, tell us why you were keen on

79

Brooke being here with us on the podcast.

80

Maria: Brooke has been a fabulous

advocate for young people.

81

She's…

82

I hope she doesn't mind me saying

she hasn't always found it easy.

83

She found it quite difficult, I

think, moving into a new school,

84

mainstream school environment.

85

But she has incredible tenacity.

86

She's incredibly clever, and she's

also, as I say, a great advocate for

87

young people who may be struggling,

and she will speak up for them,

88

and she'll speak up for herself.

89

And I think sometimes that's one thing

that we're a little bit anxious, a little

90

bit nervous about asking young people

to do, to put themselves out there.

91

So I was just thrilled to bits

when she said she'd come back.

92

I really was

93

Simon: Very good indeed.

94

Well, Brooke, great words

there being said about you.

95

Great tenacity as well, I'm hearing.

96

Thank you for being here on the podcast.

97

How does that make you feel,

you know, words like great

98

tenacity in the face of autism?

99

Brooke: I'm not sure.

100

It, I don't know, it makes me feel kind

of weird that someone thinks about that

101

about me, but also kind of proud that

I can, like, be that person for people

102

Simon: No, rightly so.

103

I think it's just a, a good reflection

of the school that you come from and

104

the very fact that you're back at the

school now doing some volunteering work.

105

First of all, where, where have you

been at university for the first year?

106

Brooke: I'm at Exeter, so not too far away

107

Simon: Okay.

108

Well, great university.

109

And what are you studying there?

110

Brooke: Well, I'm doing history now, so

111

Simon: Okay, very good.

112

And what was it about the school

itself that was a reason for you

113

wanting to come back, to give up

your time to, to do some work at the

114

school, to volunteer at the school?

115

Why was that?

116

Brooke: Yeah, so I've, since I

started school when I was four,

117

I've been to six different schools,

so I've changed around a bit.

118

And Mount Kelly was by far,

even though it's the last one,

119

it was by far the best one.

120

Like all the staff supported me a lot,

and even though, like, I definitely

121

had a lot of struggles along the

way, it, it made me the person I

122

am today, and it helped me develop.

123

And I wanted to come back because

firstly, I want to be a teacher, so

124

it's good experience, and secondly,

because I wanted to help other people

125

that may be struggling like me, and

to show that they can achieve things

126

even if there's obstacles in the way

127

Simon: And when you look back on your

own experience as a pupil at Mount

128

Kelly, what do, what do you think

schools sometimes misunderstand about

129

the best ways to support young people?

130

Brooke: I think sometimes

they misunderstand, like,

131

the really small things.

132

So sometimes I can be in a class and

there's a light flickering, and I s-

133

then I start having a meltdown, and

the teachers don't understand that

134

that the really small things can set me

off because there's so many different

135

things that are overwhelming my system,

that being in school takes so much out

136

of me in the day because I'm masking,

and I'm trying really hard, and I'm

137

a perfectionist, and I'm dealing

with all these other struggles that

138

everyone else doesn't have to deal with.

139

So, like, the small things can

set me off, and sometimes teachers

140

don't understand that, that I…

141

They think you're be- just

being dramatic or something.

142

And even though Mount Kelly has been one

of the best places that people do try

143

and understand, it's still not perfect,

and still sometimes teachers will be

144

like, "Oh, what's wrong with her?"

145

Simon: Hmm.

146

Hmm.

147

And then in that situation what, what sort

of feelings do you have inside yourself?

148

Is it, is it, is it frustration

or is it sort of a sadness that

149

other people don't understand?

150

Brooke: It's usually mainly

frustration and sometimes anger, and

151

I wish that people understood more.

152

But, and then there's a part of me

that's like, "No one can really truly

153

understand what I'm going through."

154

But luckily, like, when stuff like that

would happen, I could come and see Maria.

155

And for me, when I was in that state,

writing things down was an easier

156

form of communication than speaking,

'cause I struggled with that.

157

So I would write things down, and

I explained to Maria why I was

158

struggling so much, and she was, like,

a really big support, and she would

159

talk to other teachers to help explain

why I may be struggling quite a bit

160

Simon: Mm-hmm.

161

Actually, Maria, if I can just

jump back to you for a second.

162

How do, how do other teachers, how do

other adults respond if you try to explain

163

to, to, to them, someone who doesn't s-

someone who doesn't have autism at all?

164

How do you find that they usually react?

165

Maria: I think that's another reason that

I've, have enjoyed working here so much.

166

So it's not easy.

167

It really isn't easy.

168

It's an incredibly busy school, busy

academically, busy co-curricular-wise.

169

But the, the teaching staff here

are they're incredibly thoughtful,

170

and they're, again, a, a good sort

of working community together.

171

So, you know, it, it has taken some time.

172

It's, as Brooke was saying, you

know, nothing's ever perfect, and it

173

still is a work in pr- in progress.

174

But generally, you know, I think because

teachers spend so much time with young

175

people, with the young people around

them, whether it's in the classroom,

176

but also doing so many other things

outside the classroom as well, they get

177

to know the young people really well.

178

So I think the fact that we can use,

you know, there are terms that we can

179

use, there's information that we can

pass over, and although every child,

180

you know, everybody's an individual,

and everybody's gonna be slightly

181

different and react in different ways,

the teachers in general, in fact, the

182

whole, you know, the whole school staff

have been really receptive, you know,

183

to looking at this because we have…

184

As I say, we've got such a mix of young

people here from all over the world.

185

So, you know, I think that's

one of the things that does make

186

it a little bit easier for us

on our journey to get it right.

187

And, you know, we still haven't,

you know, got it right, but we're

188

just doing the best that we can

to make, make it a good experience

189

Simon: Well, to me it sounds

like you're doing a great job.

190

It really, it really does.

191

Brooke

192

Brooke: Sorry, I was just gonna add

that the staff are really good because

193

well, as, whilst I was a pupil, the

headmaster would kind of make an effort

194

to talk to me to try and find ways that

he can be better accommodating to people

195

with special needs or neurodiversity.

196

And it, it was nice finally seeing someone

like the headmaster trying to co-op, like

197

include people who are different and may

struggle into the school environment.

198

It was nice to see

199

Simon: Yeah, and I imagine that

kind of thing coming from the top is

200

gonna be a, a, a big encouragement

for everyone else to come on board.

201

I, I'm of course, I'm sure

they're on board anyway.

202

Brooke, tell me this.

203

There, there's a lot of discussion

around inclusion in schools.

204

Do you think that the current

education system is, is good at

205

genuinely supporting inclusion?

206

Brooke: Not really.

207

Obviously, like, it varies

depending on the school,

208

but there is definitely…

209

I feel like people with neurodiversity

get isolated quite a bit from the school

210

environment, mainly because teachers

don't understand as a whole, pupils don't

211

understand as a whole, and the people,

and the pupils with the neurodiversity

212

struggle so much that usually they either

s- like, they tend to just school refuse.

213

They don't go, so they're isolated even

further from the school environment.

214

And there's not environments within

the school that people can thrive

215

because you have 30 people in a class

shouting and screaming and fidgeting,

216

and there's so much overwhelm that just

adding an extra TA or having a school

217

base in a mainstream state school can

be really overwhelming in itself and

218

doesn't actually solve the problem

219

Simon: Mm-hmm.

220

It's, it's so interesting to hear that.

221

Maria, I'm gonna jump

back to you for a second.

222

It's really interesting getting

Brooke's take on this from being

223

someone who, who left school as

224

Of course, from your position being a

smidge more experienced in life, if I can

225

put it that way respectfully I imagine

that you've seen a change over the years,

226

and I'm not suggesting at all that, that

Brooke's got this r- got this wrong and

227

that things are much better than they

used to be, therefore they're okay.

228

But how far along this journey are we?

229

I'm, I'm, I'm guessing that you would say

that 20, 30, 50 years ago, not suggesting

230

that you'd remember 50 years ago, Maria,

but a long time ago things were definitely

231

not as good as they are now, or things

are less bad now than they used to be.

232

But how far on the journey to improvement

are we in the grand scheme of things?

233

Maria: Golly, what a massive question

234

in the grand scheme of things.

235

there's lots of professionals,

lots of sort of pro- professionals

236

in, you know, with SEND, special

educational needs experience across…

237

We s- there's a network basically

of, of people who do my same kind of

238

role in various independent schools.

239

To begin with, the network wasn't very

big, I think, because it tended to be that

240

independent schools didn't possibly

think about this in such great detail.

241

whereas now it's a really thriving

professional network of people

242

who really w- do want to share

best practice, which is great.

243

And we're kind of lucky, I think, also

that we've got a bit of time to do that.

244

You know, we can, we can

meet at the end of the day.

245

Usually, well, it is always via Teams

and things, but, but talk about what

246

our experiences in our very, very

different schools, which is helpful.

247

And again, you know, it's, it's sort of

steps along the way, but we still have

248

to sort of work with the fact that, you

know, we've got young people who are not

249

necessarily anymore used to that Victorian

way of learning, sitting in a classroom

250

looking at somebody who's talking at them.

251

And I suppose that's another one of

the great things about being here is

252

that, you know, there's different ways

of learning for different reasons.

253

But to a gr- larger extent now you

know, teachers do teach in different

254

ways, which I think really helps

255

of the, the the children who

do, who do struggle with some

256

of that focus and attention.

257

Like possibly, say, your classic people

with ADHD who's always wants to be up

258

and out and doing things and can get

into trouble, not because actually

259

that they're a bad person, but because

they can't sit still and listen.

260

And I think the beauty of a school

like ours is that, you know,

261

we've got that space around us.

262

We've got so many things going on outside.

263

There's a huge link now at school

between, you know, education and nature.

264

So it's, it's a really

proactive kind of vibe.

265

I'm saying I think it's a

proactive and good positive thing.

266

However, there are still

things that don't work.

267

You know, Brooke sitting taking exams

for hours and hours that really weren't

268

actually testing or showing her mind.

269

It was literally showing that she could

an- answer what, regurgitate information

270

that people had asked her to do.

271

Does that answer your question?

272

It's just such a huge question.

273

Simon: It, it, it is a huge

question and, and yeah, no, forgive

274

me for asking such a tricky one.

275

Maria, in a moment I'm gonna ask Brooke

about the SEND white paper uh, regarding

276

the move away from EHCPs for, for pupils.

277

But for people who are listening to

this right now who might not understand

278

what that is, just be- before I

get Brooke's opinion on this, just

279

tell us w- in a nutshell what that

actually means, what that's about.

280

Maria: So, we have, we have many

pupils within the school who are…

281

we can work with and we can support using

sort of a general general reasonable

282

adjustments for them to come into

school and various levels of support.

283

The EHCPs are put together for

pupils who need, definitely

284

need an extra layer of support.

285

So traditionally, they used

to be called statements in the

286

old days, statements of need.

287

Then they were turned into sort of

educational health care plans, and

288

they really are sort of supposed to

be a portable piece of, of paperwork

289

to go with the child to explain the

kind of support that they need and as

290

a legal document to make sure that the

school provides that support for them.

291

But again, this is just such a complex

process, and there are so many young

292

people now who are, sort of need that

kind of additional support that it's, it's

293

just a, it, it's a huge sort of backlog of

them and also not necessarily particularly

294

well maintained or particularly well

sort of moved forward and developed on,

295

I think, would be my answer to that.

296

Brooke, is

297

Simon: Okay.

298

Well, let's jump across to Brooke.

299

Brooke, good idea, bad idea?

300

Tell us about it

301

Brooke: Well, I think there's a lot

of different opinions out there, but

302

the overriding one within people who

deal with neurodiversity and special

303

needs in schools think it's a bad idea.

304

Mainly be- so from my personal experience,

I didn't get mine until I was 12

305

because my primary school teachers said

I didn't need it because they thought

306

I was fine, which it was completely

wrong because even then I was school

307

refusing, and it just got worse when

I went to secondary school and ended

308

up not going to school for 18 months.

309

Simon: Oh,

310

Brooke: And, yeah, so, it, the, it, the

EHCP is there to help people like me

311

who didn't go to school and couldn't

get the right support, and I feel like

312

with the current plans, they're gonna

take that away from so many people

313

like me who need that extra support

and need to be in an environment

314

that helps them with their needs.

315

And this white paper seems to be boxing

needs into four categories without

316

actually considering the individual

needs and that they say that it's gonna

317

be used for the most severe cases.

318

But what does the most

severe cases actually mean?

319

Because on the outside of it, I look

like I'm not severe, yet that's doesn't

320

reflect a lot of the time when I was

in school and there would be weeks

321

where I would have a meltdown every day

and I wouldn't go to a lesson, and I

322

couldn't do my exams and all of this,

and I didn't go to school for 18 months.

323

It doesn't reflect that side of it,

even though I look like I'm doing fine.

324

And taking that support away from

people will stop them from achieving

325

things that they are, they can achieve.

326

So currently, I think it's less

than 10% of pupils with EHCP

327

get GCSEs, let alone A-levels.

328

So it's, it's crazy that with,

even with the EHCP, people

329

aren't even achieving that.

330

And even though, like, there's so many

different needs within that spectrum,

331

like to me, explain why they don't

have GCSEs, I think it's, shows that

332

the current system isn't working as

it is, and changing it to put people,

333

force people into mainstream, into

boxes, will just make it not work more.

334

Simon: Hmm.

335

Brooke, tricky question, but if you

worked in government, what would you

336

do that's not being done right now?

337

Brooke: this is actually something

I think about a lot, and over the

338

years I have spoken to, I've spoken

to Maria about it a lot just because

339

it's something I'm so passionate about.

340

And I actually did my EPQ on does

the education system need reform?

341

And my overarching opinion was yes.

342

And t- in order to deal with the SEN,

like, crisis in education as it is,

343

you need to first combat the problems

in the education system as a whole,

344

which is failing for every pupil, not

just the, like, special needs pupils.

345

So, you need to change

the system as it is.

346

And I think there was a current, a recent,

like, statistic saying that 85% of pupils

347

as a whole have severe exam anxiety.

348

So, I think that in itself shows that

exams are, like, not working, and they

349

don't actually represent how people can

do academically or their intelligence

350

Simon: Hmm.

351

And then tell me about the support

that people get depending on

352

what, what postcode they have.

353

What are your thoughts on this?

354

Brooke: Well, I was actually speaking to

my mom about it the other day, and it…

355

For us, so I've moved for, from three

different counties, and each one it

356

was like my parents had to fight and

fight and fight to get me into the right

357

schools because they didn't want to.

358

Like, they just wanted to do

what was the cheapest option.

359

They didn't actually care about

me, and that was such a shame.

360

And for some councils, it's

a lot worse than others.

361

So at my old school, it was a SEN school

three people had to leave the school

362

because the county just stopped their

funding even though they had an EHCP.

363

And yeah, so it was, it was

horrible, and I felt so bad for them.

364

And I think that happens

throughout the country.

365

And even though I personally understand

that there are so many funding

366

constraints, and it's a nightmare

of a system as it is, that if you do

367

sort out the, like, education system

as a whole, then you, th- then, then

368

there'll be more money to actually,

like, help with people with SEND because

369

you won't be wasting as much money

370

Simon: Hmm.

371

Hmm.

372

Brooke, I'm gonna guess that people

who are listening to this podcast right

373

now, m- some of them may well be adults

who have children who need some kind of

374

additional support and they're wondering

how they should go about it, what,

375

what they should be doing differently.

376

As someone who's gone through the

education system, and I'm not necessarily

377

talking about Mount Kelly, but as

someone who's gone through the education

378

system, what message would you give

to a parent who's listening like that?

379

Brooke: Uh, Advocate for

your child's needs for sure,

380

especially amongst the teachers.

381

Like, my parents, they, they put, they

used a, they put a lot of sacrifice into

382

getting me where I am today, and even

though at that time I saw how stressful it

383

was, they can tell that it was worth it.

384

So advocate for your child.

385

T- speak to the student,

pe- speak to the teachers.

386

Make sure that they understand that

maybe what they see at school, it

387

doesn't actually reflect the child as

a whole and their needs that they have.

388

And if they have more, like, issues

that need to be addressed, perhaps speak

389

to medical professionals to help them

get diagnosed, 'cause that can h- come

390

with support in itself, and sometimes

contacting county if they have an

391

EHCP to help that help that process.

392

But just advocate for your child's needs.

393

Try and understand, like, the

system even though it's dreadful.

394

Yeah.

395

Simon: Well, Brooke, it's been great

hearing your opinion on all of this.

396

It's been fabulous hearing about

it from a, from a UK point of view.

397

It's really interesting hearing

your experience being a, a Mount

398

Kelly ex-student and now back doing

some volunteering work as well.

399

So, a, a good shout-out to your parents,

good shout-out to your previous education.

400

But m- more than anything else, a

big shout-out to you, and thank you

401

for being here on the podcast for,

for coming back into school right

402

now and doing this volunteering.

403

But, but also as part of that, to speak

on this podcast and to, you know, all, all

404

of this is, is a good help in educating

different people including the person

405

that you're talking to right now, i.e.

406

me.

407

And, and all of it's a, a good

step in the right direction.

408

Still much, much work to be done,

so hopefully that will all be done.

409

But Brooke Price, thank you

very much for being here.

410

And Maria, it's been great

talking to you as well.

411

The one quick last question.

412

If, if a parent is listening to this,

and maybe if they wanted to talk

413

to you to find out more about Mount

Kelly and the provision at school

414

how could they get in touch with you?

415

Maria: Um, Usually the best way

to get in touch from outside

416

school is to go via admissions.

417

So [email protected]

418

and anybody in school.

419

You know, tutors are sort of the way

in to sort of the communication thing.

420

So contact your child's tutor and

they'll put … ask me to get in touch

421

with you or call through to reception.

422

I think, you know, th- as I say, it's

all a work in pro- pro- progress, but,

423

and the communication side of

it is the key thing so that we

424

can share as much information

as we can really, as Brooke said

425

Simon: Absolutely right.

426

We'll, we'll, we'll put a link to

the admissions email address in the

427

show notes for this podcast episode.

428

But Maria, thank you so much for

being here as well on this podcast.

429

Been great talking to you.

430

Maria: No, thank you so much