In this episode, Lou Woods is joined by Claire Quigley-Ward, founder of All Aboard ADHD, AACC Certified ADHD Coach, podcast host and founder of ADHD Winchester, for a powerful conversation about ADHD, parenting, executive function and what happens when we stop asking neurodivergent brains to thrive in environments that weren’t designed for them.

Claire shares how her son’s ADHD diagnosis first led her down a path of learning and advocacy, before eventually recognising ADHD in herself. Together, Lou and Claire explore how ADHD can shape family life, emotional regulation and parenting - including the challenge of trying to regulate a dysregulated child when your own nervous system is already overwhelmed.

They unpack the developmental gap in executive function, why chronological age doesn’t always reflect a child’s ability to plan, organise, regulate emotions or exercise self-control, and how this can completely change the way we interpret behaviour.

The conversation also explores masking, rejection sensitivity, education, the impact of environment, and why seemingly small adjustments can make a significant difference.

Most importantly, Claire challenges the idea that supporting ADHD means trying to remove it - instead asking what could change if we created environments that recognised neurodivergent strengths including creativity, curiosity, empathy and problem-solving.

In this episode:

• Claire’s journey from her son’s ADHD diagnosis to recognising her own ADHD
• Late diagnosis, masking and the cost of going undiagnosed
• ADHD, parenting and emotional regulation
• The executive function developmental gap in ADHD children
• Why understanding executive function can change how we interpret behaviour
• ADHD in schools and where traditional education can fall short
• Environment, scaffolding and practical support
• Rejection sensitivity, shame and rebuilding self-belief
• Recognising ADHD strengths alongside its challenges
• Advocacy, coaching and creating spaces where neurodivergent people can thrive

Connect with Claire Quigley-Ward

All Aboard ADHD: allaboardadhd.com

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Hello and welcome to the ADHD Interrupted podcast where we help you really understand what's going on in that neurosparkly brain with practical tools, expert insights and plenty of those.

Oh, now it all makes sense.

Moments that we all definitely need on this journey.

Today I'm joined by Claire Quigley Ward, founder of All Aboard adhd, ADHD coach, podcaster and mum whose journey began with her son's diagnosis.

We talk parenting masking emotional regulation, the developmental gap in executive function and.

And what schools and our environments are still getting wrong about neurodivergent brains.

I hope you enjoy this one as much as I did, always forgetting to take your vitamins, make them so delicious that the only problem is perhaps taking too many.

Huge thank you to our sponsors proven vitamins for believing in our mission and helping us support you.

Welcome Claire Quigley Ward, founder of All Aboard adhd, ADHD coast and podcaster.

Thank you so much for coming on.

Oh, thank you for having me.

It's really nice to talk to you.

Thanks, Liz.

So, for anyone discovering you for the first time, what's the story Behind all aboard ADHD?

My son, who's now 15, was diagnosed with ADHD at age 6 and a half, so quite a long time ago now.

And that's really where this whole story began because, I mean, I had really no knowledge of ADHD at all.

And it wasn't even a diagnosis that I was actively seeking because I think we didn't have the information that we do now through social media and things like that.

I went to the GP because I thought I was a terrible mum.

I just thought I was failing.

And no matter what I did, I. I just couldn't seem to make it work or do it the way everybody else was.

That then led to him being referred, which ultimately resulted in an ADHD diagnosis, which actually took me by surprise because I wasn't actively looking for it.

I didn't think there was any issues with him, I thought the issue lay with me.

But my way of coping with that was just to try and learn as much as I possibly could.

And I was very determined from day one to lean into it and not allow those kind of more negative messages and the shame that's associated around this stuff be the prevailing narrative for him, really.

So I, I just spoke really openly and wanted to do everything I could to advocate Kate for him.

But also, whatever I was learning, I wanted to actively share it, whether that was with his teacher or, you know, parents of kids that he was playing with.

And so the kind of more I spoke about it, whether that was in school playground, at pickup, this was pre Covid when we used to all congregate or, you know, in other environments.

What happened was that more and more people then started coming and talking to me and saying, oh, actually, could my friend talk to you?

Could I put you in touch with somebody?

Even the school started signposting people to me.

And this was just locally because I think having that sense of somebody else going through it was of, I guess, a lot of value because I think that's the thing I didn't have in the beginning.

I had nobody.

I felt massively alone.

I just didn't feel like anybody was sharing this experience.

And I was so desperate to sort of protect and support my son that I went on my own journey with that.

But the irony is I ended up creating it for other people.

And so that led me to set up ADHD Winchester, which is a support community in the city that I live.

But even then I would still get people who had joined the group saying, you know, could we meet for a coffee?

Can we have a call?

And you start to realize as more and more people join that the questions often are the same.

We're all sharing many of the same struggles.

And I thought, well, if this is the case in this part of the world that I live in, which, let's face it, is ultimately a very privileged place to live, then that has to be the case across the whole of the uk.

And I felt like I'd had the wherewithal to learn everything I could and really throw myself headfirst into this.

But maybe not everybody else had the same capacity for varying reasons.

You know, it's so overwhelming, isn't it, and depends on your own nervous system and all the other things you've got going on in life.

And I thought, well, I wanted to be able to help more kids because it was almost never just about my children.

So that then led me ultimately to set up the podcast because I wanted a way in which to make credible evidence based information as accessible to as many people as possible for free.

So that it became a kind of starting point.

And that's obviously aimed specifically at parents, but anybody can listen, right?

Because this stuff is relevant, whether you're a child or an adult with adhd, then subsequently to that also to then train as an ADHD coach with ADKA in the us.

And I specialize in working with kids, predominantly sort of teens and tweens, but also with parents too.

So it's, it's become, it's sort of Something that started as my son's diagnosis really became a bit of a vocation and a bit of a calling.

And in all of that, I had my own ADHD diagnosis and subsequently my daughter, who's now 10, she also has an ADHD diagnosis.

So, yes, definitely a family affair in that sense.

Wow.

I love how, like, you turned your struggle into strength and just built this huge community.

You say it's like a labor of love, then for you.

It's a nice way of putting it.

I just think I couldn't not.

I think it feels like a calling.

I feel like I'm drawn to it.

And there are definitely times when, you know, ADHD can feel all consuming because you're living it yourself, you're parenting it, you're supporting others, you're podcasting about it, and it can, it can feel all consuming.

But I am so driven by this desire and a mission just to help as many people as possible because I, I think we need to change the narrative, but actually ultimately that we have to be the ones to do that.

And I think it's not just about supporting parents so that they have the information to help and understand children.

I think it's also then about giving children with ADHD the language to understand themselves so that we can move away from some of the more negative messages and some of the stereotypes and the misunderstanding so that hopefully their generation actually grows up to be way more inclusive and accepting.

That actually, you know, our brains are just simply wired differently and that there's challenges that come with that environmentally, but there's massive, massive benefits.

And that we, we all need that place to be accepted and valued.

So, yeah, it's a kind of, I guess, a full circle labor of love, as you said.

Yeah.

It's funny when you said, how could I not?

That's exactly the words that I said when, like, I started doing all this, because I think, I don't know if it's the same for you.

Growing up undiagnosed and having that experience, I find really kind of drives it because I don't want anyone else to have to go through that.

I want people to be seen.

Yeah.

Especially young children.

Like you said, it was very much like that.

So you went undiagnosed your whole life.

What was the cost for you going undiagnosed all that time?

Well, that's a good question, isn't it?

It's a big question because one of the things I'm quite aware of that even through my own diagnosis, my focus was still on my children.

So I've kind of done a lot of that processing in the background.

And I think even now I have moments every single day where I go, oh, that's why like it just all even now is still slotting into place for me because I'm not really directing that focus inwardly.

But I, I would say there's massive cost in that because despite being like a really outgoing person, I'm very sociable and probably quite naturally extroverted.

I do have like really low self esteem.

I struggle in lots of ways that negativity bias is very, very me.

You know, I've doubted myself and I think at times I probably haven't.

Well, not even at times.

I would say in many ways I'm not sure that I ever fulfilled my potential that I had for various reasons.

So I think there is definitely a cost, a cost in the way you see yourself, the cost in the maybe the possibilities and parts that you never fully follow.

And I appreciate there is a flip side to that.

And I've achieved lots of amazing things that perhaps weren't initially on my radar, like the work I do now.

But I do think there's a big cost.

I think understanding that support the language that's used around some of the experiences when I was younger.

And I think that even though there was a cost to going undiagnosed in many ways, even with the awareness that we have now, I actually think that's probably harder for children today than perhaps it was because of some of the pressures that exist within the school and education system that I don't think were necessarily there for us as children.

Children, you mean just for ADHD people?

I think probably neurodivergent people in general and I mean, let's face it, all children, there's a lot of hoops and metrics and measures that kids are held up to these days.

But I get a sense that there was more flexibility and autonomy for teachers with education when we were younger, even though the understanding was definitely lacking.

And there were undoubtedly many who really suffered as a result of that.

I'm not.

Nowadays we have a situation where we have loads more awareness and that's a really positive thing.

But almost the square peg, round hole scenario is from an education perspective I think is much harder or seemingly definitely less flex that, you know, allows us to kind of mold to what we need.

So I'm not sure whether one is better than the other.

But I do think there's a huge cost and for me as a woman in particular, and I think gender does play a part in that.

It's really a lot about how I've masked myself.

I've not taken up space, I've perhaps at times hidden my true self.

And that's not even a conscious thing, actually.

I think you adopt these things very subtly over your lifetime to the point you don't necessarily know where that starts and finishes.

So part of the process of having an ADHD diagnosis yourself is almost unlearning.

And I don't think maybe I'll never fully do that.

As I said, I'm like aware of these things every day more and more.

So I think we carry that hidden load, the hidden cost, particularly as women with adhd, in ways that may not fully reveal themselves or that will take time to reveal themselves.

But I've definitely, definitely carried the cost of that.

Would you say being an ADHD parent or ADHD parenting triggers your own childhood wounds?

Yes, without a doubt.

I think the moments where I've done my worst parenting have been at times when I've been worried about the judgment of others, even complete strangers, because of my own experiences.

That's things that are triggering me.

And I think there's also that awareness, you know, that we weren't really, we didn't understand ourselves.

We had a lot of perhaps negative messages around who we are.

Maybe we were perceived as challenging, difficult, problematic.

So it's not just the sense of kind of being triggered by those wounds themselves.

It's the fact that we were never given the tools to regulate.

We were never necessarily given the ability to understand ourselves or view ourselves in a different light.

And I think as a parent, when you're learning about yourself alongside your child, it's a slight double edged sword because you have to still prioritize your child, but having this awareness of your needs in the background that you actually ironically still can't quite fully meet because you have to meet the needs of your child first and then you're still trying to figure those out too.

I was reflecting the other day actually about things when my son was a baby, almost laughing to myself about why that was so difficult for me.

And I think about, you know, the executive function that was involved in some of those things.

You know, the time blindness, the planning.

They added those extra layers of challenge right from the word go that you might not even consider.

So it's not always the big things.

It can be tiny things.

Like one thing that came to mind the other day was I used to find it really sounds so ridiculous, really problematic packing my son's nappy bag like this thing of what if I forget Something that I need.

So it became this job that I did every evening for the next day.

And then the same was true when it came to the fact that he was weaning.

And suddenly because I had predominantly breastfed and then introduced like some formula, but then when I had to add food into the mix and then that kind of constrained my time and I had to be back at a certain time to make sure that I was available, you know, able to prepare food or feed him.

And yes, I would do some things on the go.

Then that added in just this extra level that I remember at the time feeling really, really stressed about that I had to factor in a time I had to be home.

And I could never really understand why that seemed to stress me out so much versus other people.

You know, this I was he from the word go as a baby was very sensory seeking and I would facilitate that for him, but without really realizing probably I was doing the same for myself at the same time, you know, being out and about, being around other people, kind of socializing.

So yeah, I think from day one it has affected my parenting, but not always in the ways that you might think.

How do you regulate your child when you're dysregulated yourself?

I'm better, much, much better at that now because I have so much more awareness.

I think in the beginning when you don't really understand what you're dealing with and you've never done this before, it's much harder because you're bound or I was so much by the shoulds and what I was worried about, the perceptions of others and what I should be doing and my own experiences as a child and almost, you know, what it meant to be like a good mom.

As I mentioned earlier, there are times when I definitely got that wrong and they were probably some of my worst parenting moments.

And actually those only would have ever happened in public because of the perception of others.

Since he was diagnosed at six and a half, I've just spent every moment really living and breathing ADHD to get to a point where I.

And that's forever evolving.

I could understand what was going on for him and then adjust that accordingly.

I've always had an innate sense of my son of like a kind of quite almost like a non verbal deep connection from day one, like a sense I understood him.

But then my daughter on the other hand, she's 10, she was diagnosed just coming up for two years ago.

And that, that's very different because, you know, she's a different person.

We have a different relationship.

You know, she's very similar to me in some ways.

So I can get triggered in different moments.

And someone gave me the analogy of catching a ball.

If a child's dysregulated and they are throwing something at you, whether it's, you know, verbal, emotional, behavioral, and you visualize that almost as them throwing a ball, you don't have throw it back.

You can just catch it and hold it.

There's this sense that we feel like we should be responding and always with the right response or, you know, not allowing certain things.

But actually, once you step back from it and you really understand what's going on, you can start to process these things in a different way.

But we're all human.

We're all tied at the end of the day, we're all managing our own needs if we're neurodivergent or not.

And children grow and change and evolve every day.

And when you add neurodiversity into the mix, you know, sometimes it's hormones, sometimes it's adhd, sometimes it's both, sometimes it's just children being children, and.

And there are moments where I'm tired and I'm not the best at it, but for the most part, I try to really sort of catch that ball and recognize that it's all these things are all phases.

You know, the problems that you navigate with your children when they're younger, they change and they evolve and you learn and grow with it.

Yeah, I don't think you'll ever get it right.

I think it's about having the understanding and the awareness and the intention.

And also, you know, that repair, because we're, you know, the rupture repair.

We're always going to have these moments, but I think it's coming back, always coming back and rebuilding and moving forward.

And I think my relationship with my children is the most important thing.

So I'm always the first to be like, you know, sorry, I shouldn't have responded like that.

I think there's a reason why this stuff is genetic.

You know, we're best placed actually to be able to support our children and help them understand themselves and manage the things that are struggles, but encourage and celebrate the strengths and.

And we learn about ourselves in the process.

And maybe, maybe for our generation, this is as hard as it gets because we lack this awareness about ourselves.

So we're trying to support our children and build this picture of who we are at the same time and what our needs are and.

And try to meet those simultaneously as best we can.

And maybe for our Children, it'd be different, but I have no doubt, I think you'd be a great mum.

I think it's hard because you want naturally to protect your child.

Like you said, those wounds of childhood from all your own experiences.

But I guess the thing I'm learning more than anything, particularly with my son now that he's.

He's 15, that we've got to be alongside them.

When he was younger, you.

You naturally want to clear the path.

You want to remove the obstacles, scaffold heavily, clear the path, give them as easy a route and a journey as possible.

You're advocating for them, your body doubling, you know, vast amounts.

And then naturally, as they become older and they want to develop some of that independence, it's like little by little, taking very slowly some of the scaffolding down that allows them to make all the same.

I was going to use the word mistakes, but it's not necessarily mistakes.

But what I mean by that is that that's part of growing up, isn't it?

Part of develop independence, being able to navigate certain things, believe in yourself, learn from your mistakes.

That's.

That's part of being a teenager.

And it's part of growing up and realizing that then actually you've got to do it alongside them, which is where I think the relationship and that foundation that's built over years is so valuable, because then you, you start to.

I guess your paths almost run in parallel a little bit as they get older.

You know, you're not stood next to them holding their hand anymore.

Maybe you're sort of walking side by side.

And maybe slightly, just naturally, as kids grow up, the path widens.

Learning about yourself at the same time as supporting and advocating and parenting your child, it's.

It's challenging, but I, I think it's an immensely valuable thing.

And it's also immensely rewarding too, because you feel like you get this chance to really help shape someone.

But I will say one thing, and that is at the beginning of being a parent, I thought, I'm just gonna make sure that my kids don't get the worst of me.

You know, like the lack of self confidence, all of these things.

I'm gonna, I'm gonna, like, eliminate all of those.

And you realize you can't, because so much of that is a function of your experiences with adhd and that there's, there is an eye reading in that.

For me, when I look back now, how naive I was.

I thought I could just, I just do this differently.

And, you know, then they won't have These challenges and actually realize it's a part of who you are.

And therefore with their adhd, it's a part of who they are.

So it's actually understanding it and celebrating it and.

And learning how to manage it as best you can.

Yes.

Celebrating is so important, isn't it?

And there was none of that went around when I was a kid in terms of, like, adhd.

Do you think there's.

The schools and people in general are doing enough to, like, shine a light on the positives of ADHD with children?

I think that what's really evident is that, as is the case with all children, but especially when you're neurodivergent, you've got adhd, that it's a really different experience, even if on paper you have the same diagnosis.

And having the awareness we've got is an amazing thing.

Not all the information out there, I don't think is necessarily helpful or accurate or true, but it's definitely way more constructive than having no evidence.

I think that teachers are in a difficult position because there's so much expectation placed on them at an academic, you know, education level, because often things that can really help a child are not necessarily major adjustments.

But if you don't have that awareness, or even if you don't have the ability to step back and consider why, which is such a simple but valuable question.

But that has to happen at an individual level, because, yes, some of these interventions, a lot of interventions are really valuable for not just neurodivergent children, but for all children.

But I think the.

The challenge also, particularly with older children, but I'm seeing this more and more with younger kids too.

Like, really, sadly, younger kids being excluded from school at a very young age because of behaviors that are a function of their ADHD or their neurodivergence.

And when we take into account, particularly with adhd, the developmental delay there, I just think it's just appalling situation, really, because from such a young age, what is the picture that we are building, that internal picture that we're building for that child.

But we.

We do need to have a more individualistic approach.

I think across the board, we need to step back and understand why, because we gotta.

We have to set our children up to succeed.

And I think the reality is that most environments are not really doing that for our children because we want ideals, we want immediate fixes, and it doesn't work like that.

You know, we've got children, particularly teenagers, whose brains are developing and changing all the time from.

Because they're teenagers.

From a hormone perspective, but also that when there's ADHD in the mix, there's lots of added complications there, and we're not really supporting children in that journey.

We want to see a behavior change, we want to see an outcome, but without really realizing what it takes to achieve that.

And perhaps we focus so much on the outcome that we're not recognizing and rewarding the effort that goes into even tiny changes.

And often, I think, sadly, what happens with kids is that they just give up because they try.

And it's not.

They really do try for the, you know, for the most part.

Every kid I've ever worked with, they're trying so hard all the time.

People don't understand their effort, the cognitive load, the mental and emotional energy that goes into that.

But if you just feel like no matter what you do, it's not enough or it's still problematic or that you're not understood by somebody that, you know, you're.

You're tiny.

Even if they're incremental changes are not recognized enough, I think you just lose the.

You lose the motivation, you lose the energy to even try.

And then, then all of these messages become so internalized and they have such deep, lasting, lifelong impact.

I don't know what the answer is, but I just think at the moment, very sadly, some kids who have ADHD and other neurodivergences will go through school fine and they will survive it and they will do well.

Maybe even some really thrive.

But for the most part, I think it's failing children because it is not built.

I don't think it's built for the world we live in.

It's definitely not built for the future, but it's.

There is absolutely no ability to adapt to the individual.

And when we think about ADHD as being so highly, highly environmental, and by that I mean, you know, we can be enabled or disabled by an environment, then we have to step back and look at the bigger picture here about what is going on.

Because I think if you took school at the equation, in fact, I know this for a fact, if you took school out of the equation, children wouldn't face the same challenges and issues that they do.

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Now back to the Episode, the developmental gap.

Can you tell us more about that?

Yeah.

So it's estimated, and this is obviously not a blanket, all children with ADHD are like this, but it's estimated that children with ADHD have got an up to 30% developmental delay day when it comes to their executive function.

So that's all the, all of the skills that we need to kind of manage ourselves.

So for kids, I always use the analogy of air traffic control.

So if you imagine air traffic control system and you've got all these planes, they've got a, you know, taxi, land, takeoff, they've got hull patterns, all of these things have got to happen simultaneously.

The executive function in our brain that's responsible for our emotional regulation, our problem solving, our organization, our time management, are delayed.

And I think what's really interesting in that, and I'm just going to use this example because it's good easy maths, but if you're 10, that effectively means you could have the executive function of a seven year old.

That's quite a big difference.

Right.

But we're still expecting children to meet age appropriate expectations rather than stage.

Now that's not necessarily going to be true of all children.

But I think another figure that gets used a lot is a three year delay, which some people find easier to, to consider.

But actually depending on where you are on that, as you get older, in many ways that that delay might actually widen.

So suddenly, you know, it's not, might not just be three years.

At a percentage level, it can, it can expand.

And that can be particularly difficult around those teenage years.

You know, it can be very common for girls who've gone undiagnosed because they've held the mask in place.

Maybe they're kind of academically capable, but suddenly they get to 14, 15, that year nine, year 10 thing, the expectation ramps up, the work ramps up and it all just falls apart because they can't hold those two things at the same time.

It's too much.

And I think we should be taking that approach much more widely to children.

Like what would we be expecting of this child emotionally, behaviorally, if they were actually seven versus what we would, the standards we would be holding them to at 10.

And it's not that they won't get there, they just, they will get there.

It's, it's, it's that they're just not there yet.

And I think that's an important differentiation there.

And it can really help as a parent to step back and remember that I think it's important thing to just have an awareness of.

Because it is going to be impacting lots of the things that we see as struggles within our children.

And they absolutely will get there.

They're just not there yet.

I remember when I found that fact out and it definitely resonated with me and I think there's a bit of a shame around it.

Like, I haven't felt comfortable talking about it really to other people.

Not to presume they've had it, because, I don't know, maybe there's a bit of a stigma around it, but I definitely found it and I felt it well into my twenties without realizing, because I wasn't diagnosed.

But when, when is it meant to or does it ever level out?

It's a good question and I don't actually know the answer to that, but I think, or I often reflect on what does it actually mean to be an adult?

Because I believe that the prefront cortex, which this front part of the brain that manages our executive function, I think the current belief is that that doesn't fully mature until you're about 25, which will be, I would imagine, an average for neurotypical brains.

And then I saw some very recent research things out of the University of Cambridge this year that was actually suggesting maybe that's well into your 30s.

If we're saying that our prefrontal cortex, which manages our decision making, you know, our emotional regulation organ, all of these things are really necessary skills in life.

But actually if we're saying that part of the brain which is in part responsible for that isn't maturing well into our 30s, I think there is a wider question there about the expectations that we have in society and.

But particularly when it comes to kind of neurodivergent children, young people.

And I think you make a really valid point about your 20s, because one of the things I see as a pinch point quite a lot as a coach, kids going to university in their late teens, so like, you know, 18, 19, maybe they've had a diagnosis, maybe the diagnosis diagnosis is recent.

Some cases have gone without a diagnosis, but everything has fallen apart because we can scaffold and support and advocate, but suddenly, you know, they're 18, they go to university.

There's this expectation of independence.

Obviously the kids want independence too, right?

They want to be away from home, they want to be out with their mates.

But it's a lot to manage when you've gone from being at home, having everything highly scaffolded for you and managed for you, to them being in an environment where you are responsible for everything you know, there's no communication between parents in the university.

That's all self managed and it can really fall apart because it's just too much all at once.

And I think it's a valuable thing to almost step back and realize that a lot of the things that we are putting in place when our children are younger are really important, not just for where they are now, but we're not just looking at taking this down overnight, we need to be taking it down little bit later, little by little, you know, according to where they still need support, maybe areas where they're actually managing a lot of this stuff independently.

And it's where coaching can be immensely valuable because you can work with the child to navigate these things when they want more independence, more autonomy.

You can also support parents alongside it.

But you know, in many cases, actually we need a huge amount of that scaffolding.

Even.

I'm, I'm 46, I still need some of these things.

I really, really need body doubling for a lot of stuff, just as one example.

And I, and I'm a verbal processor so often I need to be able to say things out loud to kind of make sense of it, process it.

I think for me personally I, I was okay with admitting it to myself, but the reason I haven't spoke about images that I don't want anyone else to feel, you know, saying you've got the Savior, 15, for example, saying to someone, you've got the brain of a 12 year old.

Sometimes people might take offense to that.

You know, I also think it's, you know, I don't know if you agree, but obvious for everybody.

But is it one of those like paradoxes of adhd?

Because I look back and in some ways I was definitely emotionally behind, but then at the same time in some ways I think I was more emotionally attuned.

It was kind of two sides of.

The coin because we're highly sensitive, aren't we?

You know, we're processing a vast amount of sensory information simultaneously.

Often highly empathetic.

Like you said, we're really in tune with the emotions of others.

And I think it's important to know it's not having the brain of a, of a, you know, a much younger child.

It's not that, it's just that our executive function hasn't developed yet at that same rate and needs more support and they're very different things.

You know, that doesn't mean it's not a function of intelligence.

And so I think it's not as simple as just saying, you know, your brain is much younger.

It's, it's.

How does those things show up for you?

And it won't be the same for everybody.

And understanding, though, and then adapting to them.

It's about accessibility almost, isn't it?

It's not about saying, you know, we're adults, we've got the brains of children or teenagers.

It's not that at all.

It's just that there are some elements that are.

Are weaker for us, that are more challenged and that we still need support in place for whether that's things we're able to do for ourselves, you know, working with a coach or whether it's accessibility elements in the workplace.

But it's about recognizing how I think those things show up for you.

And it'll be.

There'll be similarities, but they're unique to everybody.

I love how you've differentiated, like emotional maturity and intelligence because that's made it make sense for me.

So as an ADHD coach, what patterns and struggles do you see come up the most?

Especially with teenagers?

We have no issue finding evidence of.

For negative thoughts and feelings.

It's there in abundance because we've been served it from day one.

And it's much, much harder to build a body of evidence for the, you know, the flip side, the opposite, the strengths, the times that things do go well, where we see.

We see the impact of our efforts, no matter how small.

And once we end up in that spiral, it's.

It's going well.

You know, it's exactly like that, isn't it?

It's going to take us down with it, and it's being able to firstly recognize when that's happening and really explore around where some of these things come from, Noticing it as a repeat pattern and then helping support and build that body of evidence so that slowly, over time, that we can begin to.

To balance these things out.

It will not be an easy thing at all, because I think it's.

It's lifelong, this stuff, and it, it runs deep.

Even just having the ability to start with a conscious thought and recognize it is quite powerful in itself.

And then trying slowly over time to be able to.

Even if it's just matching those thoughts, you know, or changing the order that we present them in, because I always think that, you know, on the other, on the opposite side of a struggle is a strength.

So if we can start to.

Absolutely, you know, in many ways, you could even argue it's a skill.

Recognizing things we struggle with and wanting to do better, that's an incredible thing.

But it's.

It's about very, very slowly helping them to understand why these things are happening, where they show up and then trying to counter that with them over time.

But it's got to be authentic.

And I think the thing with kids is, and this is true for us too, you've got to build it yourself.

You know, if we just sit there and say, oh yeah, but you know, it's.

Even if they can hear it and take something from it, it's not their evidence, it's our evidence.

So we've got to work with them, scaffolding them again, you know, to support them, building a. I think that's the amazing thing about a coach because you, you get to do that without maybe some of the emotional charge that you have as a parent with your own child because you, there's a degree of separation there.

So you get this, the, the space to be able to, you know, if a child's open and able to do it, to really explore some of this stuff.

But I think that these messages start, I mean, from so young and they have such a deep, deep effect.

So it's really important to catch it, recognize it, understand it and help them build something the other way.

And I think particularly if you struggle at school, that is just such a big part of our kids lives.

So how do we bring in other spaces where they can thrive?

Like, like where is, where are their interests?

Because interest is everything to an ADHD brain.

Everything.

It's just our absolute fuel.

You know, the engine's not going to turn on without it.

So, you know, if they are struggling in school, obviously we need to support and scaffold and advocate for them.

But how are we giving them again if they are able to access it in spaces to explore those interests, meet other people, spaces to shine and feel good about themselves?

Because we don't as adults, we don't only exist in one environment.

And I think the tragedy is that school is having such a detrimental impact on the way that kids view themselves, particularly when they're getting up to, you know, GCSE stage.

I, I'm really anti exams, I hate exams.

I think they are purely a measure of your ability to record information under pressure and in writing.

Right.

Like it's not set up for an ADHD brain, a neurodivergent brain at all.

And it is not a function of how hard someone's tried.

It's not a function of how much they even understand or ENJ subject.

And I think when you then start to put kids through these metrics by which we assess all of them you know, this pass or fail kind of good enough.

Not good enough.

That.

What.

What is the message there that you didn't, you know, you're not good enough to progress, that you're not good enough to go on and do the next stage, to do something else, because you were.

You were unable to adequately capture all that effort and interest or knowledge in a written exam paper.

I just think it's really wrong talking.

About, like, the conditioning.

And although it never goes away fully, how much do you think of the conditioning can be undone as we go into adult life, of that RSD and that trauma response?

I think there's something you can do about all of this stuff, all of the things we experience.

It may not go away fully, and maybe it will be a lifelong effort, but I do think there are lots of things you can do.

I think it starts with understanding.

Understanding and then being able to, over time, pick some of that stuff within yourself.

Because I think if you understand why, then you can change the narrative straight away.

And then things like RSD is a very real debilitating experience.

I believe that there are lots of things we can do to put in place that over time, might lessen the emotional pain of some of those experiences.

Even if the pain is the same, maybe we develop the ability to be able to step back and to pause and to reflect on it differently.

Maybe it's not that we don't feel the pain, but we recover quicker.

We bounce back, we do it anyway.

I think coaching, I think, is immensely valuable for everybody, whatever stage you're at, whether you're, you know, it's for you as a child, it's for parents supporting a child, whether it's for us as adults, there will be times and certain things in our life where maybe we might struggle and the ability to understand that with somebody and put things in place that work for you.

And that's what I meant by maybe some of this is lifelong.

Because I see this definitely with parents, and, you know, I can be as guilty of this as anybody without stopping and questioning myself.

But I think we do this to ourselves as adults.

We struggle with something, and we want, like, an immediate fix.

We want to stop this thing without realizing, to get there.

There's loads of little layers underneath, and we've got to kind of take those one by one by one.

And then eventually, eventually, maybe we do have that overall fix, maybe we don't, but we're a lot closer to it.

And I think the process of doing that then brings in a lot of compassion, self kindness, which can be really hard for us because I don't think anybody judges themselves more than we do.

I really do believe that if we want to look at children who are growing up and still developing, still learning, it's not even just hope, I guess, the actual belief that we can put things in place to help them manage this stuff, then we.

I think it's really important that we believe that in ourselves too, you know, and let's face it, if that new evidence is true, that maybe our prefrontal cortex doesn't fully develop until we're well into our 30s, or the way in which we have plastic brains and we can rewire this stuff, we can learn is valuable, like what we pay attention to grows.

So if we can just start to focus us, start to reframe over time, I think you'll see the positive effects of that, even if it's never the magic wand that we're all looking for, because we don't want to eradicate this stuff.

Right.

It's about seeing where the challenges show up, because I guarantee.

And this is the environmental factor.

And I think it's really important to remember that some of the challenges we face will only show up for us in certain environments.

It's not across the board.

And even if you look at the way ADHD diagnosed, these challenges don't have to show up in every single environment of our lives to show up in two.

And that says everything about the way in which environment impacts our symptoms.

So, yeah, I do.

I really believe it's not necessarily going to be easy.

It takes a lot of work, but we absolutely can.

And we're not.

We're not trying to change ourselves in the process.

I think that's a really important thing.

We're not.

It's not about trying to remove adhd.

I think we've got to celebrate the value of having the brains that we have.

I love that.

I love how you say you don't want to get rid of the adhd.

I've asked a few people, if you.

If you could get rid of the adhd, would you?

And no one ever says yes.

And I love that.

So what's something ADHD people are generally exceptionally good at that gets overlooked?

Do you think that ability to see things in a very different way.

So problem solving, creativity, empathy, that curiosity.

Curiosity is an incredible thing.

Actually put those things together, they're pretty powerful, right?

We naturally focus on so many of the struggles that we forget to look at the other side of these things.

And I think all the struggles we have have a Strength that goes alongside them, if we just reframe it.

And the same can be true of strengths, you know, they can be problematic.

A hyper focus is an amazing strength.

Until you've not eaten or you don't want to go to the toilet.

Exactly.

Or someone interrupts you.

Oh my God.

The brain.

Well, the transitions, you know, transitions is a difficult one for me, but we've got amazing things to offer, actually.

I think that without neurodiversity, without adhd, without other brain differences, so many of the incredible things that we use every single day in our lives wouldn't exist.

You know how many entrepreneurs who have really been change makers and thought leaders and disruptors have got ADHD and other neurodivers?

Universities.

Yeah, exactly.

It's an incredible thing.

I watched a documentary on Einstein on the way to Bali and I was like, oh my God, he so had adhd.

Yeah, they believe that he did.

I mean, obviously nobody knows for sure.

I think it's representation is everything, isn't it?

We want to see people speaking openly and realizing that actually you can achieve amazing things if you've got the right support and understanding.

And I think this is where if you look at many of these, these entrepreneurs that you said Einstein, you know, he doesn't.

Obviously we can't even have that conversation with him today.

It's not a function of intelligence, it's not a function ability, it's not functioning of drive or any of these things.

Actually it's about being able to do things that naturally fit and work for your brain, but fundamentally that you're interested in, then you can just set the world on fire, I think, in a really positive way.

And maybe that starts little by little.

It's like, like if you're, you know, if you're in school, when you start to maybe just pick your GCSEs and you get to get rid of those subjects that are just painful or teachers that you just don't understand you and then a little bit more when you go to college and beyond.

I really hope that we see much more value outside of universities actually going back into apprenticeships, those kind of opportunities, because I think that we undervalue a lot of that stuff and we think that there's just one path for everybody.

And I don't necessarily think that's the case.

I think if we've got interests and skills and we want to be able to follow those, we should be making more of those opportunities for kids to like, feel good about themselves and to succeed and build some of the, these Positive messages earlier on about themselves, you know, whatever their interests might be.

And just to believe in those things can really help you positively shape things for yourself just simply by knowing them.

I think there's a lot of power in that, that as much as anything else.

So you have achieved and done so much to help so many people.

For those thinking, how does she do it all?

How do you do it all whilst managing your own ADHD and whilst parenting ADHD kids?

Oh my God, I don't know is.

The answer to that.

I am, I think it changes, doesn't it?

I am perimenopausal.

That's definitely had an effect on me in recent years.

I can't actually keep up with myself the way I used to.

And that is immensely frustrating for my ADHD brain because I can't quite get the speed I do did.

And I think it comes in waves.

I think I, you know, we burn out, don't we, a lot because we try to run a marathon at a sprint speed.

I have a brain that works really, really quickly and that's an amazing thing, but it can also be really, it can be quite tiring.

And so I think I would answer that question very differently for different stages of my life.

But if I was looking at where I am right now and I've definitely had to make some changes for myself this year so that I can, I can continue to do all of these things because I have now built this awareness around myself so when I am burning out, I can understand why.

And realizing that when you live and breathe ADHD in the way that I do, you're giving like a vast amount of emotional energy all the time, whether that's as a parent, coaching, podcasting, all of these things.

And actually that I'm really giving myself permission in a way that I would never have done, done before, to try to take moments to recharge, even if it's only 10 minutes.

And I would have really struggled with that notion before.

So it would have been absolutely lock in, hyper focus, almost being really tough on myself.

I needed to sit there, focus, concentrate, all the things we know don't work for adhd.

Or I'd be frightened of losing my concentration and focus.

But I would emerge at the end of a really long day just with absolutely nothing to give and then not be present for my children.

Or then also maybe at times not just not be present, but I might have been more prone to being triggered by something myself.

I'm kind of learning to try to structure things differently, to try to take 10 minutes where I. I will change rooms, I might make a cup of tea, and I might just sit and watch TV for 10 minutes, which would have been unheard of in my life before.

In fact, I'd been so worried that someone walked past the window and saw me and the shame associated with that because I wouldn't want people to think, think I just sit there watching TV all day and.

But I'm doing that because I recognize I need the brain break.

I need to shut my brain off so that then I can come back and be present and focus and have the energy required for those things.

And I'm trying at the same time to almost silo things out a little bit, whereas before everything would merge into one.

Whether it was, you know, when I was coaching, when I was preparing for podcasts, when I was recording little bits for my.

Myself, and now I'm trying to be much more disciplined.

I'm actually exploring ADHD medication at the moment for the first time ever.

And I think it's just realizing that maybe you need different things at different stages of your life and different needs of your children affect then you, you know, where.

When my kids were younger, I used to think, oh, you know, when they're older and they'll be doing more of their own thing.

And actually I found the opposite to be true because having young children is very intense.

But in many ways the problems are simpler than when you've got older children or, you know, whether that's in managing and supporting emotional needs, whether it's the ferrying around, the taxiing that you're doing and, and the impact that has on your own, you know, time management, organization, the things that you, your brain might want to be doing, but you have to be over here doing something else and just trying to adapt to it.

But I would be really lying if I didn't say that.

It.

It's not.

I find it harder than ever these days.

And I think that's because of the stage I'm at in my life physically, in my age, where my.

The age of my children and all my work commitments, which I absolutely love.

And I never want to stop doing.

But I definitely don't have the same stamina.

I was going to say energy that I don't think that's true.

I don't have the same stamina that I did before, and that.

That's taken some getting used to, if I'm honest, because I wanted my brain for.

Fought that for quite a long time and just trying to adapt accordingly as I go.

So that's what I'm doing right now, that might change.

I think as I've got older, you recognize that when you give, you've got to re recharge, you've got to refuel.

And I think that was something I didn't really do historically throughout my life.

And I'm just trying to give myself permission to do that a bit more so that I can keep doing all the things I love.

Your podcast is amazing, by the way.

You've had some incredible guests.

Yes.

So where can people find out more about All Aboard?

So All Aboard adhd.

The podcast is available on all the usual platforms, obviously.

Spotify, Apple Podcast, anywhere you like to listen, really.

Then my website, all aboard adhd.com that's got information about podcast, about coaching, lots of other resources on there too.

And then social media.

So Instagram and I also share clips from the podcast on Tick Tock, but Instagram is probably the predominant social media channel.

What's one current narrative you would like to interrupt about adhd?

Environment, Impact of environment, I think because it's the one that could make the most difference if more people understood it.

Many of the symptoms and challenges we experience absolutely are a function of adhd, but we're experiencing them because of the way that the environment impacts us and our brain and how we are able to function.

The symptom is not necessarily ever present.

So we have to look at why we're seeing these things and begin there because I think that can do a lot.

And actually even by doing that, you build a better relationship with the child and the individual, which also goes a really long way.

So I think that's it's really important one.

Yeah.

Thank you so much.

I feel like I've learned so much on this conversation.

I think fights to to you.

Thank you for having me.

Thank you so, so much.

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