Former General Counsel At Snap and Co-Founder of TerraTrue Spills The Secrets To A Successful Privacy Career

Hi, my name is Jamal Ahmed and I'd like to invite you to listen to this special episode of the #1 ranked Data Privacy podcast.

In this episode, you'll discover:

• How Privacy Pros can help their organisations embrace privacy by design
• Why Privacy needs to #ShiftLeft and what the future holds for the industry
• What leading companies look for when hiring

Ready to become a World Class Privacy Expert? Book your call to join the World's Leading Privacy Program

Before co-founding TerraTrue, Chris was the first General Counsel at Snap, where he built the company’s legal, compliance, public policy, and law-enforcement teams.

During his time there, Chris developed a transformative privacy program that coupled rigorous review with tools and systems that were nimble enough not to restrain the relentless pace of execution. Chris is a Homeland Security Project fellow at Harvard’s Belfer Center for Science and International Affairs. And he’s constructed two crossword puzzles that have been published in the New York Times (one of which was featured on the Colbert Report). He graduated from Yale Law School.

Listen Now...

Follow Jamal on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmjahmed/

Connect with Chris on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/chris-handman-746095a0/

Check out TerraTrue: https://terratruehq.com/

Subscribe to the Privacy Pros Academy YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/PrivacyPros

Are you ready to know what you don't know about Privacy Pros? Then you're in the right place.

Welcome to the Privacy Pros Academy podcast by Kazient Privacy Experts. The podcast to launch progress and excel your career as a privacy pro.

Hear about the latest news and developments in the world of privacy.

Discover fascinating insights from leading global privacy.

Professionals, and hear real stories and top tips from the people who have been where you want to get to.

We're an official IAPP training partner.

We've trained people in over 137 countries and counting.

So whether you're thinking about starting a career in data privacy or you are an experienced professional, this is the podcast for you.

Hi everyone and welcome to the Privacy Pros Academy podcast. My name is Jamilla, and I'm a data privacy analyst at Kazient Privacy Experts. I'm primarily responsible for conducting research on current and upcoming legislation as well as any key developments and decisions by supervisory authorities. With me today as my co-host is Jamal Ahmed, Fellow of Information Privacy and CEO, Kazient Privacy Experts. Jamal is an astute and influential privacy consultant, strategist, board adviser and Fellow of Information Privacy. He is a charismatic leader, progressive thinker and innovator in the privacy sector who directs complex global privacy programs. Considered by his peers and clients to be one of the UK's pre-eminent privacy experts, he has the credibility and gravitas to engender confidence. He is a sought-after commentator, contributing to the BBC, ITV News, Euro News Talk Radio, the Independent and The Guardian, amongst others. The Privacy Pros podcast reaches audience in 72 countries and is ranked the number one privacy podcast in the world and one of the top three GDPR podcasts. Jamal strives to be a great leader, listener, and coach. He has grown a talented, high performing team who protect the privacy of a billion plus data subjects and our international experts in data privacy, GDPR and cybersecurity. Jamal and his team are driven by the principles of simplifying and demystifying privacy, removing complexities and educating clients to forge a privacy by design culture that enables clients to build their internal privacy capability and capacity. He works with global clients across multiple sectors and jurisdictions, partnering with boards and C suite, debates constructively, challenges, rigorously questions intelligently and advises pragmatically alongside exceptional experience and qualifications. He has value by providing pertinent insights, bringing alternative perspectives, and triggering healthy debates. Hi Jamal.

Hi Jamilla. How's it going?

Good, thank you. How are you?

I'm great. And I hear you've sourced us another fantastic guest this week.

Yes, I have. Our guest today is Chris Handman. So before co-founding TerraTrue, Chris was the first General Counsel at Snap, where he built the company's legal compliance, public policy and law enforcement teams. During his time there, Chris developed a transformative privacy program that coupled rigorous review with tools and systems that were nimble enough not to restrain the relentless pace of execution. Chris is a Homeland Security Project fellow at Harvard's Belfast Centre for Science and International Affairs, and he's constructed two crossword puzzles that have been published in the New York Times, one of which was featured on The Colbert Report. He graduated from Yale Law School. Well, Chris, thank you for coming on our podcast.

Thank you so much for having me.

No problem. I think Jamilla what we need to do is talk this podcast in crossword puzzles.

Well, that leads me nicely onto our icebreaker question. I want to know what was the hardest clue in your crossword puzzle?

I think the closest thing I do to a crossword at the moment is wordle.

Weare huge wordle fans in my household. The only problem with that is my two young sons who are one's about to turn eight, the other is nine. They love to play it, actually, but they like to start with first words that are like bunny or horse or things that are top of mind. So my skill is sometimes compromised a little bit by less strategically or let's say dubious first word choices, but it's a lot of fun.

Actually.

Before we get into the questions, Chris, could you just give us a brief walkthrough through the kind of roles that you had at the different companies you work with? Because from the conversation we were having just before this, you were telling me some of your experiences, and I think it sounds really fascinating. So why don't you tell our listeners a little bit more about some of the experiences that you have that has led you to where you are today.

Wow, that sounds super fascinating. Earlier when we were speaking, you mentioned something about the shift left mentality. You want to talk a little bit more about that? And was that developed as part of this work you were doing here?

Yeah. So I think it's a really interesting concept. And if you think of the, shift left is really just a metaphor if you think about the way products get developed on a continuum from sort of left to right. So on the far left hand side, if you could visualize this, you would have those germs of good ideas, someone's like, hey, let's do this. And as those ideas mature from that kind of nascent stage on through products specing, on, through development, through testing, ultimately on the far right of that continuum is you shift those products, they go out the door, and you start ingesting the user data that these products were designed to accommodate. Historically, privacy has really occupied this kind of, like, far rightward tilt on that continuum. It's been consulted late, if at all, in these processes of product development. And it's just an inherently reactive posture. It's often been kind of cut off. And part of that is not through anyone's fault. It's just the reality of product teams working in their own tools, like Jira and other fast moving agile development tools. Lawyers have almost pathological allergic reaction to Jira and things like that. They're often spreadsheets. And these are worlds that just don't speak well to each other, even when people out of good faith are trying to. And so what we recognized was that we had to bridge this gap, especially back at Snapchat. The only way we were going to kind of couple speed and rigor was to shift left and to kind of move this into privacy, into the fabric of development. So we come up together with own home brewed, DIY types of efforts. But we recognize that to democratize this, to kind of bring this vision to life, we needed to build that platform that no one had really focused on. And I think our unique experience at Snap gave us that kind of insight that, hey, there is a real need here and a pain and something we want to get ahead of and where the markets continue to go. And so shift left at the end of the day, is really about trying to ensure that privacy is a key component of every way in which you develop your products.

Yeah, it's very interesting. Chris, how did you first become interested in privacy? Because you have a law background. You graduated from Yale Law School. What was the draw to privacy?

One of the things I love about privacy is that it doesn't admit of too many categorical answers. There's a lot of indeterminacy, there's a lot of ambiguity and privacy, and it's also an emerging area of the law. It's changing all the time. And I thought the final thing is, it is one of the more tangible aspects of law that affects people's lives. Right. We think today it's not an exaggeration to think about privacy as a human right. And the idea that you can be a part of developing a legal doctrine in this era of uncertainty and constant tectonic plates shifting and help think about promoting what is a human right. I think that to me, has always been the most interesting aspect of law. Some people love trusts and estates and hardened black letter rules that they can apply. That was never for me. I liked the shades of grey, and I liked the policy questions that merged with law. And to me, early on, privacy represented a lot that intellectually fascinated me, but also had this really practical sense of we can do good and I know that's always this kind of cliche, but it is a happy coincidence when you can marry your intellectual curiosities with things that can actually promote the public good. And I think for me, privacy has always stood out as one of the chief embodiments of how law can be such a force for good.

That's fascinating and I really resonate with that, Chris. The reason is because our vision for everything that we do here at the Privacy Pros Academy and at the consultancy Kazient Privacy Experts is all based on our vision where we're going to have a world where every woman, every man and every child enjoys freedom over their personal information. And our mission here is to empower every organization on the planet to actually be able to adopt those honest privacy practices and to listen to you talking about coming up with solutions where you can identify that the actual development and product teams don't always necessarily talk with the legal teams and it's sometimes further down the line as they shift left or as they progress to the right that this happens. And what you've actually found is that by understanding that if we shift left a little bit and find that at the earlier stages then we don't have to think in terms of a zero sum. We can think of a positive sum because there are ways these can marry together and actually we can combine privacy and the objectives of the product or the project that we're working on and really put something out there that not only helps businesses and individuals reach their objectives. But also safeguards and promotes the freedom for them to choose what happens with their personal information. And I think that's really fascinating.

Jamal, I'm going to see if I can copy your words and put on our website because I think you summed it up exactly right. That's how we think about how our product can help. We are selling, obviously to sophisticated companies and I think, of course, the legal tailwinds are forcing companies to contend with this. But I do think you are seeing more and more companies, they want to do the right thing. I think we are seeing this fundamental transformation. It's not just lip service that privacy matters to people. I think companies are understanding this at a really fundamental, almost corporate bone marrow level, that this is an important thing that we have to get right. And if you don't get it right, not only are you doing disservice to your customers and jeopardizing your own goodwill, you are putting yourself behind the eight ball when it comes to being competitive. I think the ability to harmonize privacy and what it demands and the speed of execution is going to emerge in the next five years as a competitive advantage. And for those companies who have managed to get the cultural touchstones correct, the processes in place to manage all that versus the companies who take a cavalier attitude or are late to that game, you're going to see that shake out in the market as well. And so, from the bottom line, if nothing else, getting these things right today is a really critical and important and again, it's one of these areas where the externality of getting it right is so positive. As you said, these are real people's lives and data and their rights at stake. And these are significant rights. We're not just talking about trivial rights here. It can literally be life or death issues when we start talking about certain types of tracking and types of data in certain geographies around the world. And so we want to make sure we're thinking this thing through clear. Again, this gets back to your question, like why privacy? And to me, these are the sorts of practical implications of why it can be just, again, really interesting, but also a really important part of the way we all think about it.

I think one thing I'd like to add to that Chris, its actually also really rewarding when you manage to find a solution that helps preserve that privacy of all the stakeholders. And you've been part of that effort to uphold that trust that people give when they share their personal information with you. And sometimes people don't actually understand how much personal information they're giving up. So, for example, when we're perhaps looking at cookies and people's websites, where they've been, how long they've been there, what they've read, what their tastes are, and all of that is used to build up a profile. And this data is actually the person, and the person is the data. So sometimes people talk about data and it's a cliche. Data is the most valuable asset, the most valuable commodity out there right now. But actually, when you look into it and why it matters, you understand. And earlier this week, I was reading an article about this 14 year old child, 14 year old girl who taken her life because the algorithms picked up she was looking at stuff that was making her unhappy and they said more of that until she got to the point where she actually ultimately ended her life. And now her father is trying to make a stand and say, we can't let this happen again. And why did you allow that to happen? You should have picked up on this. And how can we protect our children and vulnerable adults from going down that dark route to begin with? So the work that you're doing here is going to be so instrumental in helping all of these companies that you work with, especially the forward thinking companies. So tell us more about TerraTrue?

Sure. So, TerraTrue, my co-founder Jad Butros as I mentioned, he and I met at Snap, and he was the first CSO. He's the brilliant technologist of our half. As I mentioned, I contribute dead weight on the technical side being providing the legal muscle and privacy insights. But he'd spent ten years at Google leading security engineering efforts on the social side for years. He was on the first ten security engineers ever hired there and we now are a team of roughly 50 employees all over the United States catering largely to enterprise companies who are hungry for a solution that helps them realize I think in the past the concept of privacy by design has been kind of booted around for a decade plus and I think it's almost developed a bit of a kind of a caricature bad reputation. It feels so academic in the way it's been talked about and I think for us that's why we don't really use the word privacy design but that is in fact what we are empowering. But we think about it in the shift left mentality because to us what privacy really needs to do is declare its independence from the silos and really think of itself less as a compliance function and more as a product enablement. The more privacy is thought of as a core part of the way you build a product and the more it becomes a natural extension of simply the way products go from conception through implementation. I think all companies are better off and so TerraTrue is that platform that allows that to happen. So what do we end up doing? We end up being a way of seamlessly ingesting ideas, tickets, business initiative whether that's in Jira from product teams or an ironclad from where your contracts are coming in from. The point is we want to make it very seamless for your business to do the work that they've always been doing. Not put more panes of glass, not make them feel oh this is another function I've got to go through. Let them work with the tools they've been working with but come up with powerful integrations that can pull into territory. Create one single source of truth for the privacy teams or other teams even security teams to understand what needs to be reviewed and then smartly through logic and ML understand what needs to be can be auto approved or sent back or doesn't need any kind of oversight and then smartly route that to the right people. Map it against the world's laws. Create automatic risk flagging. Send that guidance right back to the product teams in real time. So amplifying what are often thinly strapped privacy teams to ensure that we are moving at speed. Not slowing down the business. Making sure privacy is not going to be indicted as the place good ideas go to die. Not the place that people want to move around because this feels like a heavy handed compliance function and ensure that what privacy teams ideally could do if they had time and world enough with resources and everything can now be done and realized in a way that doesn't at all jeopardize the work and then make sure that I think the biggest thing that we hate about privacy most people complain about is it's so manual. It's so repetitive. It's so inefficient and we want to make sure we get rid of all that. So all the work in territory is efficiently rechannelled into populating your ROPAS, , into creating evergreen data maps, making sure that we can pre populate and be smart around all the things so your PMs don't have to answer the same questions over and over again. That workflows are dynamically tailored to exactly the data you plan to be using, no more and no less. And so just getting rid of all the inefficiencies, that the bedevils most privacy programs, that's one of the very core points of TerraTrue and of course there's more to it, but I think that's one of the core promises that we make.

That sounds super useful. And I know one of the biggest frustrations that teams have when it comes to answering the privacy by design ,the data protection impact assessments and identifying some of the challenges is actually the communications. And if you find ways of actually automating that so you're not having to go in the same question, they don't feel like answering the same question. Yeah, and they don't actually have to dread thinking about privacy because oh no, it's those guys.

Yeah, exactly.

It sounds like you found a super effective way of getting the most out of the human resources there as well, but also improving the chances of success and also speeding up that time. Because one of the problems you said we find, especially when we work on these things is they'll come up with the product or finish the project or they'll come to the end of it and before sign off, privacy will get drafted and we'll say, hang on a minute, what about this, what about this, what about this? Even that to begin with and how you can exactly use it and then they have to go back a few steps. But what you're proposing, the solution that you're proposing here, actually eliminates all of that. It doesn't waste it on the process.

It does in general. That's exactly right. And so you hit on a really good point at the end there where often if privacy does hear about this feature, it might be like a day before they're going to ship it and then it reduces privacy’s toolkit to really this binary, like approve it or reject it and jeopardize a huge product launch in an initiative. And what we're trying to do is give the whole business a much wider array of tools. Right. So the earlier you are involved in that process and the more the business can become self-sufficient because you have this automated guidance, you're able to understand what the risks are and that the companies can also then curate their own bespoke types of workflows. Right. You might as an organization have a particular concern around a specific type of cookie or a specific type of geolocation and you can create that. TerraTrue allows you with our structured data to trigger different either workflows or warnings or mobiles or whatever you want to do to make sure that your business is understanding what you care about in a way that doesn't require you to manually go through a 20-page spec and figure out what's going on here and map it against some other random law. And then the other thing that really is important is, this is not only great as you go forward, of course, but we all know laws are changing frequently. I mean, here in the United States, we have California, Virginia, Colorado, the federal laws that keep being threatened to come down, different regulations that then the results of all these legislations. And so the challenge isn't just even going forward, but then it's like as these laws change what you have to go back and re-examine what features have you already done? And with TerraTrue, because of that structured data that we collect and the way we're able to map that, you can also do an instant gap analysis. We're able to say, hey, look, based on these legal changes, you need to go fix these 15 different features that you shipped over the last three years. And here's why and here's what you can do. And so again, it's just empowering the privacy team to feel part of the product and making the product feel like, oh, this is going to make our lives a lot easier. It's that two way communication which we empower through slack and Jira and Ironclad and making sure that, again, teams don't have to kind of jump out of their own worlds to communicate. And we can kind of be that hub that does that translation between different organizations.

Sounds great. Now, Chris, there's so many people listening right now and they're thinking, shut up and take my money, Chris already. But what kind of business, what kind of organization is this solution really is most suitable for?

Our product is really aimed at the companies that are largely in the B to C space, although we are increasingly rolling out features that make it more bespoke for B to B. But if you want to take a snapshot today, you looked at all of our customers, the thing that you would recognize are really kind of like two common denominators. One, largely B to C, the controllers of data, let's just put it that way, right? And already some maturity to their privacy program. TerraTrue is a pretty powerful platform and it assumes a certain degree of maturity with your program. You don't have to have an army of privacy consultants, but it's definitely not designed for, let's say, a small SMB that has no legal teams. You do need to have some, I'd say executive commitment to that. But look, any company who is public on their way to being public, a growing series B or Series C company who's a controller of data and anyone who is feeling the pinch of privacy concerns. This is a platform that makes their foundational efforts for privacy incredibly faster, more responsive, and the earlier you ingest territory, it becomes a source of truth, and the more powerful and faster it becomes, there's a flywheel effect to it. So we have found a ton of success with early adopter companies who use it as a source of truth and can help power going forward, knowing that they want to continue to uplevel their privacy programs. This is a way of really eliminating a lot of the anticipated technical privacy debt that we see companies consume. I would say that should be a good proxy for who TerraTrue really resonates with.

Great, yeah, that makes sense. It's more for the more mature businesses, the listed companies, the enterprises at this point, and you're working towards moving towards offering solutions for other businesses. But right now, that is kind of the perfect market. So if you're listening, what Chris has described sounds like the kind of company you work with and you'd like to get in touch with Chris about this solution, what's the best way to reach out to you or your team?

Chris you can just go to our website, terratrue.com. You can download white papers, get a demo that way, and I'm always happy to personally reach out to anyone who's a listener of the pod.

All right, great. So don't worry if you didn't catch that. We'll link it into the description of the podcast so you can come back and you can always click on the link and book yourself a demo. And if you're lucky, Chris will even have a conversation with you and really help you to understand how it's going to help you. Now, Chris, I want to get into the more softer skills, which I think is actually the more difficult ones to grasp. And that's really important when it comes to hiring privacy professionals. What kind of things do you look out for when you're hiring people into your team?

I would say the number one thing I look for is creativity, which I know may be an odd thing to index on, but it gets back to what we've just been talking about, which is there's a lot of ambiguity around privacy. It's not a field that, you can sit for your exams, and that's an important thing to absolutely understand. You need the basics, right? You can't riff and improvise, like as a jazz pro, until you understand your scales and you understand the foundations. But at the end of the day, especially for when we are building products for modern teams, you need to think pragmatically around privacy. How can these regulations and rules translate into requirements that can be achieved in a pragmatic way at scale? How can they borrow from those first principles we were talking about? How can you ensure that you are doing everything you need to do and no more and no less. And I think that does require a degree of creativity. Privacy still is in its infancy and there aren't like well-polished playbooks that you just kind of like dust off and go from your last job like, I'll just do the same thing. You need to kind of come at it with a fresh perspective and an intellectual curiosity to figure it out. So it is that creativity and then that curiosity that I think if you have that and you then have the kind of basics, of course, of just the core privacy foundations, those are people I love hiring. Those are the people who I think are really going to help move privacy forward as opposed to just kind of like being able to reflexively cite you Article 32.

Yes, absolutely. We're on the same page there. The thing that I don't want to use the word hate, but I dislike the most is when businesses speak to your, let's say, mediocre average consultants and they just regurgitate articles to them like they could have gone on Google and done that and you're not adding any value. You need to meet the business where they're at, talk to them in a language they understand and come up with those pragmatic solutions that means they can actually hit the business objectives whilst at the same time maintaining that trust over that personal information that's been trusted to them. And to hear you say that you're looking for that curiosity, like, how can we make this happen? And that creativity in finding ways to do that is absolutely two really essential skills. And you spoke there about the certifications and the foundations. And one of the things we offer at the Privacy Pros Academy is the International Association of Privacy Professional certification programs. And that really helps them with their curiosity and that open mindedness that you have.

The last question before we finish up. Where do you see privacy in the next five years or even ten years? What do you think the privacy industry will look like?

Great. Thank you so much. And almost, I lied before that wasn't the last question. Finally, we ask our guests to ask Jamal a question. So, anything at all from what you've been listening to today.

What are you seeing in terms of like, over the next, say, two years or so? Where are you seeing the biggest pressure points when it comes to privacy and how it's affecting the way business is being done on the continent?

That's a really good question. The biggest challenge that businesses are having right now, and this will carry on over the next year or two, is when it comes to the international data transfers, business is done globally more often now than it was ever done before. And it's only going to increase as technology makes it easier for people to have teams and make uses of resources and the benefits of going to different parts of the world for different goods and different advantages and benefits. The problem is though, how do we make sure that any of these data that can be access from other parts of the world where they don't have such strict laws that people are still comfortable sharing information with the business, where they know that they have offices or they have individuals all around the world working with. And businesses are really struggling to understand what can we do to make sure that we get this done properly. Because in the UK, the UK businesses, we have Brexit, right? So the deadline for using new standard contractual process, the UK version was actually yesterday. The ICO actually haven’t issued the new templates that we need as businesses to move forward. And some businesses are out of panicking. We want to be compliant. Right now it's all about reputational damage. The thing that's driving most businesses that we work with is they all want to make sure that they are not the next British Airways. They are not the next Uber. They are not the next Facebook, which is in the press for all of the wrong reasons. Because, yes, although it might be not a lot in terms of the fine, when you think about the revenue some of these companies make on an annual basis, the actual cost of putting those things right, the actual cost in the ways that people don't see published, outside of the fines is significantly more to businesses than people actually realize. And it's only after a company suffers this or they know another company quite well, they actually understand why this is such a big deal. So reputational damage is the key driver that we're seeing across Europe right now. And increasingly, we're seeing those forward-thinking companies think, okay, now that we know we've got the basics, we've got a good privacy program, we are confident it works. We know that we have a good culture. How can we now take this to a commercial advantage? And what they're looking at is they're looking at the biggest companies in the world. And what they see is Apple, they're selling millions of handsets by talking about privacy, right? And they're talking about it, that doesn’t necessarily mean they've achieved it. It’s because their new button that says do not track, all it does is send an email to the app provider saying, this person telling me that they tracked it doesn't do anything other than that. But the fact is, they've understood customers right now. They care about privacy. And those companies that can show them they understand them, they meet them where they're at, and they care about their privacy too, are going to be the companies that are leaders. Amazon, they take out space on the billboards and sides of buildings on buses, talking about how much they value their privacy. Now, when you look at the forward thinking companies who spend millions of dollars on researching what people are interested in to understand the marketing, you can see that forward thinking companies are onto something, that, yes, privacy is actually a great competitive differentiator, and if we get it right now, we will be so far ahead. And that's why when you were talking about this earlier, you see me grinning and nodding along because you're absolutely right.

Well, it's funny. And I'm grinning when you drop the Apple example, because I often will use that exact same example. I will say there's no sure confirmation that we're in this kind of like, privacy revolution. Then we have Apple advertising iPhones with one value prop, it will protect your privacy. The broad national campaigns, all they're trying to say is, this is the phone that will protect your privacy. Now, we can debate other kind of like motives behind us and whatnot, but the reality is that they have recognized that this is a core component to what consumers want. And I think that when Apple is doing this, it signals not just where the market is but underscores the importance that companies feel about how privacy does have to be a part of the way you build those products. And it all just carries through to the broader theme that we've been sharing on this podcast around how you have to have privacy. Privacy can no longer be thought of as this other thing, this compliance function if it's not tethered to the actual product development, you're just doing it wrong in this day and age.

Awesome. Thank you. Thank you so much, Chris.

Yeah, my pleasure.

It’s been a pleasure speaking with you. We've had a look through your journey into privacy and how you got to where you are now. You share with us some of your top tips of what you look for when you're hiring. We've covered the shift left mentality and how TerraTrue is really helping those forward-thinking enterprises to get privacy right, not only save time, but also get the efficiencies of making sure they maximize the impact of the project and get it right first time and have that single source of truth. We've spoken about how to map different requirements across the globe. We've talked about forward thinking businesses and how privacy can be a competitive advantage. And we also discovered new things I don't even know about Crosswords, about the symmetry and all of these things that Jamila has given us all, a number of apps or games to keep us busy this weekend. So it's been a fantastic podcast from everyone listening and from the Privacy Pros Academy, I want to say thank you so much for giving up your time to come and speak with us today.

It's been an absolute joy to meet you both and really enjoy the wide range of conversations. So thanks for your time.

Thank you so much.

If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe, like, and share so you're notified when a new episode is released.

Remember to join the Privacy Pros Academy Facebook group where we answer your questions.

Thank you so much for listening. I hope you're living with some great things that will add value on your journey as a world class privacy pro.

Please leave us a four or five star review.

And if you're you'd like to appear on a future episode of our podcast.

Or have a suggestion for a topic you'd like to hear more about, please.

Send an email to team@kazient.co.uk

Until next time. Peace be with you. Bye.