This podcast episode delves into the pivotal question of whether every player should learn to pitch, a topic that underscores the essential skills required in the game of baseball. We engage Reds Hall-of-Famer George Foster (George Foster Baseball), Ethan Dungan (Glovehound baseball glove repair shop), and Rick Finley (MD&I Baseball Academy), as they share their insights on the importance of mechanics and the role of proper technique. We 'll discuss developing various pitches and the strategic thinking involved in effectively working from the mound.

Description

What does it mean to be an effective pitcher and should every player learn to pitch? Find out in this episode on The Complete Game Podcast.

Podcast Partner Bios

Ethan Dungan - Owner of Glovehound Baseball Glove Repair Shop. Ethan played for several teams during his career including Midland and Fairfield High School. He now operates Glovehound from his shop in Fairfield, OH.

Rick Finley - Founder of MD&I Academy Baseball Training Facility in Fairfield, OH. Rick has successfully coached and trained hundreds of players at the Select, Travel, and College levels in both baseball and softball.

George Foster - Major League Player with the Giants, Reds, & Mets. NL MVP 1977, 5-Time All-Star, Silver Slugger and member of the Cincinnati Reds Hall of Fame. Founder of George Foster Baseball where he offers private baseball instruction.

Timestamps to relevant points within the episode:

• 00:02 Introduction to the Podcast
• 00:39 Pitching Techniques and Legends
• 10:31 Baseball Legends and Their Pitches
• 21:02 Understanding Pitching Mechanics and Effectiveness
• 33:44 Transitioning Perspectives: Pitching from a Hitter's Viewpoint
• 42:30 Understanding Pitching Techniques
• 54:10 Understanding Pitching Mechanics and Player Development
• 01:01:02 Understanding Throwing Mechanics in Sports

Key Takeaways:

• We discussed the importance of teaching young players how to pitch effectively, emphasizing the necessity of mastering basic throwing mechanics before progressing to more complex techniques.
• We explored the concept that every player should learn to pitch, as this skill can be vital in various situations throughout their baseball careers, regardless of their primary position.
• We highlighted the significant role of leg mechanics in pitching, illustrating how effective pitchers utilize their legs to generate power and control rather than relying solely on their arms.
• Our discussion also touched on the various pitches that young pitchers should focus on mastering, such as the four-seam fastball and change-up, while encouraging experimentation with different grips and techniques.

Links

• glovehound.com
• mdaiacademy.com
• georgefosterbaseball.com
• twocreativedigital.com

Teaser

Learn to see the outfield as an opportunity. Next week we'll discuss the advantages to playing outfield and the opportunities that can open up when players embrace it.

Companies mentioned:

• Glovehound
• MDI Baseball Academy
• George Foster Baseball

Welcome to the Complete Game podcast where we're all about baseball with Ethan Dungan, owner of Glovehound Baseball glove repair shop. Rick Finley, founder of MDNI Baseball Academy and the creator of George Foster Baseball, the MVP himself, Reds hall of Famer George Foster.

I'm your host Greg Dungan. Now let's talk baseball. So this week, how you guys doing? Everybody's feeling better this week? Okay.

Much better, getting stronger, taller.

Good. Glad to have you guys back on the, on the men's there. That's cool. Well, this week we're going to talk about pitching and love it, love it.

We're calling this one should every player learn to Pitch? And we're going to tackle that a little later in the show. But we're going to start out here at the beginning with our name five segment.

And last week Rick went first and he took all your, took all your choices, George.

I know.

So you can, you can go first today.

Well, I, Catfish Hunter had to stand out. Here's a guy that course started with Oakland, then he went to the Yankees.

So this guy, most of these guys talk about the fast fall slider. Fast fall slider and a lot of people feel that you need more than that. But he was very effective in the fastball slide.

But location he didn't throw hard. But it's like Greg Maddox, you know, being able to move the ball around.

So he had an idea and these guys did a lot of research on these, on the batters, they knowing that what they, their strengths are and when they really kept us from swinging the bats well in the World Series. But the one guy that really stood out was Blue Moon Odom. But he's, he's a tough cousin. But like I say, Catfish Hunter stands out.

And then you could go to Steve Carlton, the lefty with a fastball slider. And I remember one year when he had Philadelphia Phillies only won 61 games. He won 26, 26 out of those 61 games.

So you knew he was going to throw a slider but it really was tough to lay off.

And I find in today, not, not only when we play but in today's game, it's tough for a right hander to hit a left handed pitcher who has a good slider. And if you're left handed and you pitch, if you left handed you should pitch and find someone who can teach you how to throw the slider.

You'll be amazed how much attention you will get. And plus being left handed, you can throw 88 to 89, but it's like mid-90s as far as a right hander.

So you're going to have an advantage not only throwing from the left side, but they're going to judge you differently when you, when you throwing from that left side. And I see guys that are in the major league today that they've been around a long period of time.

This guy, I played against him or with him with the, with the Mets, and he put like over 20 years as a relief pitcher, a guy named Jess Orozco, and he had the nasty slider and at times, you know, he would, he would giggle because he said, how can that guy miss the ball? But he was, he was a great competitor out there and he had confidence in, in his repertoire. And so it was, it was great watching him pitch.

I didn't really like facing him that much, but it was great watching him. These other two guys that, once again, this one guy, J.R.

richards, who played for the Houston Nationals, this guy averaged 300 striking out, 300 or more batters, least three or four years. And if he hadn't gotten hurt, he would have been in the Hall. Compile the hall of Fame numbers.

But this guy, six, eight and great arm and great, I mean, very athletic. But that fastball slider again. And you say, you may know that it's coming, but it's going to be still a challenge to hit.

And I didn't hit on high average against him, but I had a couple of home runs against him. But he wasn't, it wasn't a treat to watch, I mean, go out there and play against. But he was a great competitor.

Once he got good control, he was tough. You had a Nolan ryan and a J.L. richardson in the same lineup and you wanted to take a day off, but didn't that bring to mind Nolan Ryan, this guy.

The thing is, you know, like in tennis, you hear the guy, people where they're hitting and they're grunting, and when Nolan Ryan throws the ball, he's grunting out there, he's striking out at the same time that he's grunting. But I look back, I hit a home run against him at Shea Stadium at first, you know, a man on third base, less than two outs.

I figured, oh, it's a sacrifice fly. But the ball kept carrying, carrying, carrying. So I played it off like, yeah, I Knew I got it. But the next time I faced him, he walked me five times.

He would. He would not throw me a fastball. But to this day, well, maybe I asked him today, but when we played, I said, why didn't you throw me a fastball?

But if he would have, I would have said that he maybe buried one in my ribs. But those guys are great competitors, and every one of those, except Junior Richard, who would have been there in the hall of Fame.

But the other one I missed, though, is Tom Seaver. I didn't face him as much because he played for us, but it was a street playing behind him. But this guy, he was a hard worker and he knew that.

It's like in pitching, people feel that if you. It's not the pitch a lot of time, it's the location.

And he knew that, okay, he would keep the fastball, keep it getting a little higher and higher and higher. And so that down he's reading that batter's the bat. And then ask the catcher.

And if a guy followed the straight back, he said, oh, come a little higher. But he knew the game was just great watching him pitch out there. And. And. But I said, there are a lot of good guys that faced against a face going to.

Maybe it's Ethan's guy. I'm trying to take a lot of Ethan's guys because he did last time. Bob Gibson, this guy, you know, they call him the Headhunter.

But he said that it wasn't his fault. He never tried to hit anyone. They just didn't get out of the way.

Ethan, what was that one stat you looked up with Nolan Ryan? His walks versus his strikeouts?

Well, he just. He just pitched for so long. He's just miles ahead of everybody in all of the counting categories because it just added up over time.

That guy. Pizza better as he got older.

Yes. Physical. He did things to.

To.

To keep his arms strong. Throw a football. Softball.

Wrestler. Alligators.

Yes. You know, long tossed. He was doing things. He was ahead of his time to keep his arms strong.

And the things that people talk about now, you know, it's like, man, that's been doing that for years.

Well, and if I remember correctly, he had an arm injury and rehabbed himself.

Yes, he did.

To avoid having to get Tommy John surgery because he didn't want to take the. So I mean, that.

To be able to be. Before.

To be able to do that, I mean, that shows incredible body awareness, if nothing else. But, yeah, he's almost. Let's see, at 5,714 strikeouts, he is almost another thousand ahead of Randy Johnson at 48, 75.

But he also has over a thousand more innings pitched because he just threw so much.

But almost as many walks. Did he?

Yeah. Let's see.

That was what was crazy. We were looking that up. And his walk numbers are almost equal to his strikeout numbers.

But still, it was a tough walk. You know, you're going up there following it off, falling, and often. Yes, but I don't know, it probably average eight or nine pitches per wall. So he.

I mean, this guy. Would you talk about pitch count? You know, he'd been out of the game the third inning, but he pitched.

He wanted to go out there and be his own relief for walks.

Number two is Steve Carlton. Okay, at 1 1,833. Number one is Nolan Ryan at 2,795. So he leads everybody by almost a thousand walks every strikeout. It's crazy.

Half as many walks as strikeout and.

He never won a Cy Young.

Oh, isn't that crazy?

That is crazy.

That is crazy. All right, Rick, who's on your list?

I hope I took them along. You did. You took some of them. But I would take the Braves big three to four with. When Leo Mazzoni was their pitching coach, man. Yeah.

Steve Avery, you just had all.

Steve Avery. He didn't get much credit.

No, he did not.

That guy was tough.

Yes, he was.

Leo Mazoni. We played together my second year in pro ball, and of course, he was a pitcher. Then all of a sudden, he's a. He's a star pitching instructor. What?

Yes. So sometimes you don't have to be a great player to be a good coach at times, you know, just know your craft.

Nolan Ryan, of course, Dave Stewart was one of my.

Oh, Dave Stewart was good.

Dave Stewart was a beast, man. He threw gas, man.

He.

He had the Bob Gibson mindset.

Yes, Bob Gibson mindset. And he had. He knew martial arts, I remember, against the Cleveland Indians, I think. What's the catch? Oh, Pat Corrales. Pat Corrales come from.

Come from Compton, California. And that's supposed to be a bad neighborhood.

And so Stuart, he know, talked very soft, you know, you guys just got to break it up, you know, before Marlon Brando.

Hey, you guys, break it up.

So Pat Corral is going to go out there now. What are you going to do? Before he knew it, it's like Billy Jack, how did that foot get upside my head?

Oh, man. Jack Morris.

Oh, there you go.

Very underrated.

Yeah, Jack Morris was a beast. I Liked him, man, when he went from the Twins to Blue Jays.

Oh. But when he's with The Twins, it's 81 Allstar Game. You know, he was throwing a splitter and I hadn't seen the splitter before. What is he throwing me?

Let me see Chris Sales right now. We talked about it last week. I like, I like Chris Sales, man. He's got a.

That slider right on you.

Yes, yes. Nolan Ryan, of course. Roger Clemens.

Oh, classic.

The rocket man. Yeah. So those are my guys right there.

He's in another zone when he's out there he is. He said he'll knock his mother in law.

He'll throw inside anytime. Yeah, yeah. So he was competitive, man. So those are my guys right there that I liked.

Cool. Ethan, who you got on your list?

So I picked a couple more current guys that I like watching right now and in recent years. Number one right now is Paul Skeens, hands down.

Yeah, I like Paul Schemes.

Everything he has moves. It moves so late and it's so precise.

Yes.

And it's just, it's fascinating to watch. Um, nothing. Not it. Not a lot of like movement from the beginning, but it gets on you and just.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And it moves in all directions and he throws hard and he just, he controls himself out there. I just, I love watching him.

He's working on another pitch.

The.

Yeah.

Cutter, sinker.

Yeah, yeah.

He's working on another and with, with, with his spin rate, man. I mean, that's, that, that, that slight movement is going to serve him well.

And I advise the guys, if you don't have enough bats, don't swing it because you're going to come back with a broken bat.

Number two is R.A. dickey. I just, I love a good knuckleball. I watch, I'll watch anybody throw a knuckle. I'll watch somebody who's not even a.

Professional about the negro brothers. Yeah.

Yes, yes.

So honorary mention, you know, of course, to Tim Wakefield, another knuckleballer. And then even right now, Matt Waldron, he. It's in his arsenal. He doesn't throw it all the time.

And so he uses it not as his primary pitch, which is, which is interesting.

Okay.

Number three is Devin Williams. I love that airbender. I love that change up.

Yes.

I love that change.

He's got a lethal change up and.

Another good change up. Max Scherzer. Talk about being in another world when he's out there. Mad Max, man.

When Max was on every pitch and then he had got about get everything in living color, because each eye is a different color. So you may get a blue, you may get a red.

No, but I mean, he's one of those guys that calls his own pictures, man, he commands his presence out there and it's fascinating to watch. And then my last guy right now is Kodai Senga with his ghost fork. So it's. It's kind of. It's a.

I would call it a hybrid splitter, but man, he just, he throws it hard and gets that. That late movement down. And it doesn't have. When you throw it, when they. So when they show it in slow motion, it doesn't have a lot of spin.

But the American hitters have not known what to do with it. And so that's been really fascinating to watch. So I'm really excited to have him back this year. I want to see more Kodai Senga.

Okay, Very good.

Well, I spend lots of the. I got guys I didn't. That I've seen on film, but I haven't seen in person. And I've got some other ones that I have one that's not too, too far back.

So I'm going to start with Walter Johnson.

Walter Johnson.

I love that. I love that lazy wind up.

Is that Big Train. They call him Big Train. Yeah. Yes. Can't stop a train.

He used to eat at the big.

Oh yeah.

Sidearm throw. And I, I watched a thing on him and they showed. I don't remember who the quote was from, but the, the quote of the. From the player was.

Yeah, we saw that lazy wind up and we thought, oh, we had this. Next thing I know, something went fast past my face. Faster.

Right.

See it. I knew we had. I knew we had an arm.

Right.

And he just never looked like he was working hard. No, just easy going. Whatever. But he threw hard. He threw a long time.

Good moving on the ball from what I heard.

Yeah, that's what. What I was told. So. And then I like pictures for different reasons. Goose Gossage had an epic mustache. I just, I just loved his look.

I was a kid and I just remember watching him, watching him pitch and he had that look that was. Catfish Hunter was kind of like too, but he had. Goose had this look on his. About him that was different from all the other pictures and I just, I.

Dug that scowl on his face.

I like.

But there's a guy. Terry Forster and Goose Gossage played for the White Sox. And of the two, I'd rather face Goose Gossage.

Even though Goose threw from the right side Because Terry Forster had that breaking ball that it hit, hit more right handers than left handers. But Goose, you know, he will come right at you. And I like his aggressiveness. And if he threw up, throw up it in.

He just walked towards you like next time may hit you.

The other one was the guy that all of us kids wanted to be when we were, when we were, when we were playing sandlot. Because he was just fun to watch. And that was Kentucky. We all wanted to throw some fun.

What are you talking about, fun?

We all wanted to throw like that when we were kidding. We always sit in the backyard and everybody tried to throw underhand like him. And he was a local guy, right?

Yes, he was in Hamilton. He went to Bowling Green.

Yeah, so, so yeah, Kentucky was one Phil Negro. I, I, Ethan and I both shared the love of the knuckleball. I love watching people throw knuckleballs. It's just fun to watch.

Yes.

And then my last one was Francisco Cordero. I liked Francisco Cordero because of the way they brought him into the game.

If you were ever at the ballpark when, when, when they brought him in to close, man, you're in the ninth, you're, you know, you've been at it all night long and you're up maybe a couple of runs and you got to sh.

And all of a sudden all the scoreboards erupt into flames and he comes running in from the back and they, now it was, it was just cool the way they brought him in.

Well, you should have liked Al Raboski, you know, the mad Hungarian.

There you go.

Put on his little act and, and between him and me.

So I would step in and out of the batter's box and he would go back and get the rods and he like meditate behind the mound and he throw the, the rosin down. Then he'd come to the mound and I would step out. And then finally he got frustrated and threw at me out of the batter's box.

So we put on a little show.

What about Mark Friedrich, Big Bird?

Well, of course he was in American League, so I faced him. Oh yeah, I faced him in the All Star game.

All Star game. Yes.

I got RBI against him. And then we played kick glove game against the Detroit Tigers and one game at each place. But Mark, he was a phenom.

Yes, yes.

A couple of honorable mentions. Obviously. Tom Seaver was, was one that.

He was the first really good Reds pitcher that I remember being able to like watch on tv because, you know, I was, I was just a kid and, you know, he. Even though he wasn't there all that long, he was. He was the stuff when I was a kid, so we used to watch. And of course, he had the great.

Big, long, serious leg drive, man. He had serious leg drive.

Yeah, yeah. He was dropping with a drop and drive, drop and drive. If he didn't have his right knee, didn't.

Wasn't dirty after the game, he knew that he wasn't getting low enough.

Yep. And then also another guy you played with, Gaylord Perry.

Oh, Gaylord. He's a slickster. Did I say that? Yes. No. Hip. He had Marshall and Gaylord Perry in the same rotation. But the thing is, those guys are your teammates.

So in string training, you want to get extra hitting. And they played in spring training like it's real game. Like, oh, Ron Hunt. Ron Hunt. I didn't know that he had like a pad around his waist.

Cause this guy get hit like 30 or 40 times a year, but I didn't realize he had a pad. So Marshall said, well, since you need to get ready for the season, so he would hit him.

But I never did want to hit against those guys in batting practice because. Oh, the good one is Brooks Lawrence, you know, but he's a. It was a pitcher with the Reds, but he was working the front office.

But he would come down and throw batting practice to us. So Griffin and I got in there, we hit home, hit ball out of the ballpark against him. We give him one, another high five. And this guy still had that.

That anger in him. He said, you guys gotta hit again. That meant he's gonna knock us down. I said, no, I'm done for today. Bye. I said, why is this guy so moody?

That's funny. That's funny.

Yeah.

I watched a thing on Gaylord Perry on. On YouTube, and the guy was. Who was doing the. The documentary was making a point to show that he. A lot of times he really wasn't.

Necessarily throwing junk, but he made you think that psychology.

He was very, very good at psyching you out and not sure what was coming in there.

Well, Mike Scott with The Astros had 121 year. And Gary Carter was always complaining, but the first pitch was always straight right down the middle. And then after that, he would doctor it up.

But he was a tough customer. But you gotta. Like, with Gaylord, you gotta get the first one or hit the dry side. Hit the dry side of it.

They talked to him one time, and he was talking about.

One of his favorite places to put it was under the cuff of his pants because he would go down to adjust his sock and he would be able to reach underneath there. And it was one place that the umpires didn't always check was down underneath the cuff of his pants.

I'm not sure, but I know they had it because one day I mistakenly. We were in Japan. I forgot to take my jacket over and I was wearing his jacket and I said, what is all this stuff?

And it was so cold, it was frozen it into his jacket. And everybody said, you better take that jacket off before Gaylord comes back. I said, what's the big deal?

He said, that's where he has his stuff, right there.

So you finished the season last year exhausted from all the travel and the tournaments, and you tossed your gear in a bag where it's been sitting all winter. Now you're ready for another year. But your favorite glove that fits just right is an error waiting to happen.

The leather's dry, the, the laces are brittle. And this year you're on a new team with new colors. And it sure would be cool if it matched well.

Wouldn't it be great if you had a glove guy who could help you out with that? You do. His name is Ethan and he owns glovehound baseball glove repair shop in Fairfield, Ohio.

Just contact him@glovehound.com and upload pictures of your glove. He'll give you a call back to talk it over and then you can send it in for a repair. Relays, recondition, whatever you need.

If you're in the area, you can even just stop by the shop. That way you don't have to bother with shipping. And a lot of times he can even fix it while you wait.

Rawlings, Wilson, Mizuno, all Star, Nakona, he's seen them all. And he's helped players at all levels, from beginners to pros. Last year he worked on a glove that Jose Trevino used in the World series.

And he can help you, too. You can find Glovehound on Google, Facebook, Instagram, YouTube and on the web@glovehound.com you're only going to get busier.

So reach out today and give your glove the love it deserves at Glovehound. All right, so our main thing segment today. Question, what does it mean to be an effective pitcher and should every player learn to pitch?

Rick, why don't you start us off?

Well, first, I think that kids need to learn how to throw and catch first before they get to pitching, Throwing with accuracy and learning how to use a four seam fastball. A lot of kids don't know how to determine between a four seam or a two seam.

And so you see young kids, first thing they, they just gripping the ball and most of it is on a two seam. So you, when they throw, guess what happens? Two seam runs away from you. All right? They wonder why they can't hit their, their target instead.

Because you're throwing a two seam, four seam fastball, more accuracy, you can control the ball a lot better.

And I think starting kids off with learning how to throw a throw with the four seam, control fingers, flips, whatever to help them stay behind the ball when they, when they throw.

So that's one of the things that I would be to start off with before pitching and then from there, you know, looking at their balance, you know, and things like that.

So everybody thinks about strikeouts when they think about pitchers. But is that the best measure of how effective a pitcher is.

About strikeouts? Really, it's just throwing strikes, putting the ball in place. So you, you allow the hitter to at least put the ball in place.

So your defense, we say there's no defense for walks, man, there's some defense. You keep walking, kids going to be bored, man, you know, so just throw the ball over the plate.

Especially at the younger age, don't get caught up in the, you know, striking out and everything. They, if they strike out, that means that they can't hit, you know, you know, you're doing your job.

All you got to do is put the ball on the plate, let your defense play, keep the game fun, keep it moving. But really just teaching kids how to throw and there's all kinds of variables at the time. You could use a box x whatever.

If a kid doesn't have no one to throw to, you have all kinds of contraptions now that kids can use to learn how to throw and all of that.

George, what would you say is a good way to measure the effectiveness of a pitcher?

First of all, just like in hitting, it's mechanics, working on mechanics. But I always say that you hit with your legs, you throw with your legs.

And a lot of kids try to throw too much with their arm, but you gotta being able to get like we talked earlier about Tom Seaver or Nolan Ryan, they really utilize their legs a lot. You have to have that great foundation. And a lot of kids, they hurt their arms because they're trying to.

And the other part is trying to throw, to throw curveballs before their arms develop.

But the main thing though is keep getting that base and throwing strike, you know, fundamentals, having the Fundamentals, having the mechanics and focusing on throwing, not necessarily strikes, but have the ball around the plate and being able to help that want the guy to get the ball in play. I remember Dwight Gooden with the, with the Mets, they judge his performance by how many strikeouts he had. So he was averaging 15 or 16 strikeouts.

Then he, if he, if he struck out less than 10, he felt that they felt his arm was hurting. And I said, then I told him, I said, well, I learned how to get guys out other than striking out.

And plus, if you strike somebody out, you're gonna, your, your pitch count's gonna go up. So if you can go out there and throw three pitches in three outs, you know, that's been very efficient out there.

So it's not, don't get caught up in striking out. You can. A lot of guys would pitch to contact, which is, which is okay.

And you take back with Don, Don Sutton or Bob Gibson, they're knowing that they learn how to get that guy out or the guy get himself out in a couple of ways. But they know when they need a strikeout. So nobody on base and that guy's hit doesn't mean much. He said, okay, I want to put it in play.

But now they need a strikeout. So now went from maybe 90 miles per hour to 95. So they, they make. That's a pitcher, though.

The difference between a pitcher and a thrower is that the guy, he, he know how to locate and then had two or three different pitches that he can throw up there. A thrower is a guy that, okay, I'm going to rear back and really try to throw the ball past you. And I love that guy, so I'm going to dig in.

But then as, as a, as a hitter, you know, you just, you know, he's supplying the power, so just be quick out there. But I'd say the main thing is the foundation. Get that foundation together.

And because a lot of these kids are trying to throw with their arms end up hurting the elbow and. But the ones who have. It's just like when I talked about earlier. If you left handed, you get on the mound.

But I look at a kid's hand, if he had long fingers, oh, that guy has a good chance to be a good pitcher because of course the ball you can reach, you can shorten the distance you're going to throw.

Yes, Ethan, what was it that you started out as a catcher, but then you switched to a pitcher? Much to my chagrin and against all of my better judgment. What was it that Drove you to want to learn to pitch.

Well, first of all, when I started catching in high school, my left index finger turned purple from catching bullpens.

Well, from catching pitching machines more.

Well, that too. And I was not a glove. I was like, I was like, man, I could, maybe I could throw a little bit, but I always, I always love throwing.

I'll throw anything. I'll throw bottle caps, I'll throw football, anything. It doesn't matter if throw a fit.

That's how you throw a fit.

But I just, I just love throwing stuff. I love playing catch. I'll play catch with a wall if I have to. It's just, it's just something I love to do and I love making the pitch move.

That is so much fun to me because I was never a guy who had a lot of velocity. I was, I wasn't, I wasn't super short, but I was relatively stocky. I don't have long arms, I don't have long legs.

So if I can't throw hard, maybe I can make it move. And so that was my thing and I really enjoyed doing that. But when it, when we come back to what makes a pitcher effective, it's getting outs.

Yeah.

And that doesn't always mean strikeouts, like you were saying. I mean, Greg Maddox was a very effective out getter, you know, and he wasn't necessarily a huge strikeout guy and he didn't throw a lot of pitches.

You know, now they call, if you can throw a complete game in under 100 pitches, they call it a Maddox. You know, they named it. Right.

So, you know, I like, I like the distinction between thrower and pitcher, because to be a thrower and a guy who's just going to go up there and throw hard, you know, that takes some natural talent, especially at the, at the younger age. But if you're one of those guys like I was, that wasn't so naturally gifted, you can still be a pitcher.

Yes.

And learn how to pitch, you know, in a different way. So I really like that distinction.

And then going back to what you were saying about learning how to pitch and catch, I think that's one thing that gave me a big advantage was because I was a catcher. I just had that natural throwing motion. I had a clean throwing motion and it didn't cause me problems later.

And so I think just developing the throwing motion first, you know, at that young age, it's going to come into play all over the field. And I think that cannot be overlooked.

I agree. Another thing that I think that as young Players, are they moving up, let's say between 9 to 11.

And I always have to let parents know, don't think about velocity all the time. My son doesn't throw hard enough. Coordination. Their bodies are still growing.

A lot of kids don't know how to coordinate and know how to rotate, know how to extend. They throw with their. Like George said, they throw with their upper bodies versus using their lower half.

So sometimes I have to go and give them drills to do to help them use their lower half, rotational, how to jump from one side to the other, like doing skaters and stuff like that so they can learn how to hinge and stay in their backside. So a lot of people that teach pitching all the time, they forget the movement part of it and they think it's all about the mechanics of that.

And it's not that. You gotta look and see how the kid moves first for them to be able to throw.

Because they don't all move because they don't know. Right.

Exactly. Not everybody moves the same.

Right.

So sometimes they put the cart before the horse and, and started going back in the basics. And then once you do that, I, I have a lot of kids that come to me now from the warrant pitching.

So remember what I did with you the one time you said you struggle and everything. So what I just said, relax, man.

We just throw the ball and throw catch, and you see they natural athleticism come out and then you can slowly get them to do what their body.

Wants kind of molded into.

Yeah, I like that. So. And then those are things that I see as I'm growing. I learned from, I tell parents this and the kids.

I learned more from you than you learn from me.

Well, because it's one more movement profile in the library.

Yes. In my library is I know how kids move because that's the first thing you got to do is build the foundation first.

If you don't build the foundation, then everything else is going to come down. It's not going to.

So you stay in it. You should have been paying even I.

Say, where's my cut? I want royalties on that movement profile.

That's it.

But back to throwing strikes. A lot of kids focus too much on throwing strikes in the fundamentals. You found that that's the, the byproduct. Byproduct is throwing strike.

But you have a good foundation. You can. You end up being more consistent.

Yes.

And I like the idea of, of taking your, your athleticism and fitting it to pitching. But I also like the, the reverse of that because when you do focus on that.

Really, that fine motor movement of pitching that can translate back into the field as well. And so learning how to. I feel like in pitching, it's easier to learn how to use your feet and your lower half because you're stationary.

Yes.

And so then you learn how to bring that back into the field and how to use those hips when you're throwing across the diamond. And all of a sudden, your. Your arm doesn't hurt from shortstop in third base because you learn to open your hips and lead with that. And it.

You know, it. It gives you more power into your arm to throw across the diamond, too.

But when I teach hitting, I. I always. First of all, I have the head to throw. I said, okay, why do you have your arm back that far? Is that. Well, because. To get more velocity.

I said, well, why don't you have your bat there?

Yes.

Why do you have your bat right next to your ear? Is it a. Your tripod or something? Or you listen to music there, but you get your hands back and you try to use an anal so they can understand. Said.

Do you throw from here? No, I don't throw from there. So you want to be able to get that space.

Yes.

Yes. Separate it like that word.

Speaking about pitching from a hitter's perspective, what are. What are some of the strategies that you've seen pitchers employ and maybe some strategies that you use to take some of that away from them.

Or for me, it's. But you have to. We're going back. When we talk about throwers or pitchers now, we gotta make a distinction between a batter and a hitter.

So a batter just go up there, because a lot of times it's his turn to go up to the plate. So they don't have any idea. And first thing they see, they can put the bat on, they swing at it.

And they're reluctant to get two strikes because they don't. They feel that they're in the hole. But when an announcer said, well, Foster has two strikes, he's in the hole.

I said, no, the guy on the mounds, in the hole, because I got him where I want him. But I would maybe move on top of the plate, change my stance, maybe standing taller or get lower. And. And sometimes I would pretend that I'm.

I'm peeking on the outside part of the plate. And now he think that I'm not really. He's not really sure if that's a ball or strike, so that I'm baiting him to throw me inside.

There you go. Yeah.

So.

But you got to know, you got to know that what you're doing, because every movement up there, if you have a good catcher, they going to look at that movement. And I say, Tommy Davis, he would move up on the top of the plate when Bob Gibson's pitching.

But he waited till he in his windup and then he moved on top of the plate. He had hit like two home runs against him. But he doesn't want to move up on top of the plate while Bob is getting the sign.

Because if you move on top of the play, just like Nolan Ryan, they had one kid that would. But this is his style of hitting. He would move towards the pitcher, move his feet towards the pitcher when, when he's getting ready to hit.

But Nolan thought that, well, this guy must not think I'm throwing that hard. So let me let him see how hard I'm throwing. So to hit him in the ribs and say, okay, you're trying to show me up by moving up in the batter's box.

But it's just learning. One guy, Larry Demery. But it was me, I was really focused on what I wanted to do.

He had a big curveball and a fastball, and so he threw me a curveball and I, it was high and I was gesturing to myself, get it down, get it down. But it seemed as though I was telling him to get it down. And he did get it down. And yeah, and I hit it out.

And the Joe Morgan, those guys said, what are you doing? He's going to hit you in the head. I said, I wasn't talking to him. Yes, but certain things.

Well, the one thing you had to really talk about is the fact that the psychology that I had when I was step in and out of the batter's box. So now the pitcher, he has in mind what he wants to throw. But I changed his mind because now he wants to throw his best fastball.

So the harder you try to throw it, the more velocity you're going to lose. So a guy may want to throw me a changeup, but now I'm stepping in and out, so, oh, I'm going to go with the fast one. I'm going to try embarrass him.

What am I looking for? Fastball. But they think that I'm looking down in the ground, but I'm looking at his feet, seeing how he's moving.

So he gets a little jittery, a little anxious out there. So, okay, I'm ready. But guys like Don Sutton, Ferguson Jenkins. Oh, that's another key guy.

Ferguson, Jenkins, those guys Said well, anytime you're ready. So it didn't bother them, but the other guys, they got irritated.

What are some of the ways, Rick, that you can teach pitchers to recognize batter behavior and try and throw them something challenging instead of what they want?

This is funny you say that I always as a hitter I, I used to tell our, we used to tell our hitters this, that you know, at the time you got dirt, you had a dirt there. Okay. So as a catcher I'm like look and see where his footprints are. It'll tell you what kind of hitter he is. Okay?

And so as a hitter, I used to tell our hitters, guess what? Every time you step in and out smooth that area right? So they don't know where your feet go be. That's how.

And then you could drag a bunt down or whatever.

So just looking at where to, you know that, that, that catcher, pitcher, communication man is, is key, you know, to how you can get guys out and everything and just look at, just look at their swings. For me being a pitcher, I could see what guys strengths and weaknesses are.

You know, I can throw soft way coming hard inside and then go hard away or whatever you want to do to, to keep them off balance. Because that's what it is. It's about strategy.

The hand position A lot of times indicate to where to pitch a guy. If guy had his hands up high, he's going to have a challenge hitting that ball. That's low. Of course the guy had the hands. Logan, we have a challenge.

So I try to tell the batter hitters to have their hands at least letter high. Yes. But if they're lower or higher, then it's. And having to talk to the catcher, you know, looking at his hands.

But the number one thing I did and a pitcher could do that, pitcher thrower could do that. I would go and watch the guys take batting practice and.

But that helped me as a fielder because I know that okay, the, the scout reports that this guy's a pull hitter, but I don't know if he's pulling air pull on the ground. So that make a big difference. So now if the guy pull on the ground, I don't, I don't mind paying playing more towards the line.

But if a guy hit the ball in the air, pull in the air, it's more going to get a, like a fade on it going to go towards center field. But it's just learning that. And I remember Greg Gross, who had first come up with the Astros.

He didn't hit a ball on the right side of second base during batting practice. So if he's doing that during batting practice, that's his game plan.

So as a center fielder, they wanted me to play right center, staying in right center, but I moved to left center. It's a line drive right to me because I already did. Had done my scouting.

Yes.

So then let's, let's talk about when. When the idea that should every player.

Learn to pitch, I would say, yeah, we'll have the experience. Because you never know as you grow that you may end up become pitcher.

And there are guys who gone from the outfield to the mound and been a great dust closer.

And as a scout, I was doing some scouting one time for the Japanese team, and everybody's going to go after the best hitter or the best pitcher, but I go after a guy that has a good arm but not showing any problems with the bat. So I can turn that guy into a pitcher because nobody's out there. Oh, I want that guy. I'm not going to. I'm not going to recruit that guy.

But I said, that guy has a great arm. So now get him on the mound and teach him the fundamentals of the fundamentals.

And then teaching certain pitches because you don't really need more than the fastball slider. And well, Mariano won pitch. We've been able to learn that. You got to be a Hall of Famer.

You got a guy like. Kenley Jansen was a catcher.

Oh, that's right.

Yeah, that's right.

He's carved out a great cutter.

Right.

Yeah.

Who was the shortstop for the, for the Reds and he's. Trevor Hoffman ended up being a closer. He came up as a shortstop, I believe, for the Reds. Trevor Hoffman, and they ended up sending him to San Diego.

Yeah, he's a Hall of Famer. That was closer. Yeah. There was another one that pitched for the Dodgers. He was really into kinetics. Mike Marshall.

Okay.

Mike Marshall.

Yes.

Yes. So that guy, he was, he was an outfield and he came in, but you never like, say, teach him, teach him.

Now I try to teach, like, have a guy try different positions.

Yeah.

Because the one that he likes may not be the one that he's good at.

That's it.

And that's the fun part. When I was in high school, I was the.

I had my shortstop, second basin and third base and rotate because the third base, the second baseman, I put him at third because he, he didn't catch the ball cleanly. So I can put him at. I can put him at third so he can just let the ball bounce off his chest and then throw him out. And. But the guy at.

I wanted a guy at second that has sure hands because you want to turn a double play. And then my third baseman was. He's tall and he had a lot of range. So I said, wow. I was like patting myself on the back. What a great decision here.

So, so when you, so when you work with a, with a pitcher, let's say, let's say a kid's trying out pitching for the first time and he shows a little promise. But you want to help him be competitive. You want to help him actually stand a chance of getting some outs out there.

What are, what are the first you mentioned the four seam fastball, working with that. What are, what are the. Some of the first pitches you teach to, to teach them to move the ball.

Four seam, two seam change up. That's pretty much it. Just basic. And. And so for me, I show different types of change up grips and I let them decide which one that works for them.

Right.

You know, like I said, my change up. Some kids I teach, they throw it better than I do at times.

Your change up comes from.

I throw probably about three or four different change ups. And I show the kids whatever you throw. Another thing too is a lot of kids can't throw a circle change.

Right.

Because their hands are too small or they don't know how to grip it or pronate it. It comes off here. So I give them some other grips that'll help them. Like more of a Vulcan type grip.

Yeah. I remember you showing me that three finger trophy change.

Yes. And I throw about the four or two seam and so give them different things to look at. And I was like, hey, throw it man.

You don't have to grip it tight or you can choke it or whatever.

It has to be perfect. Yes, exactly. You don't have to throw a strike to get a strike.

Yes.

And you throw that change up in the dirt. They give them a chance to swing at it. Thank you.

Yes.

But the other one is that don't be afraid to hit the guy. If you hit him, that's get on base and pick them off. But don't. But a lot of them I don't want to hit him. And oh, I had a. Oh yeah.

I was at this Youngstown and I was the guys. The coach is a pitcher and I said I really want. This is first time I ever asked somebody this as a pitcher. I said when you hit somebody, do you cry?

Like I'm sorry I hit you Ethan.

Had some of those days.

Oh, man. Towards the end post Covid, I was, I was rusty and I, I think I hit 13 kids.

And that's okay.

Yes, and maybe 13 appearances. It was rough, but it's way fewer pitches than a walk.

What were some of your favorite strategies to use out there?

Man, really, just being able to change speeds is, is key because. And, and even if that change up doesn't move it, it looks different.

Yeah.

And especially at the, at the young level, you know, you probably, your fingers aren't very long, you probably aren't going to get a ton of movement, but just something different, something, something to make him uncomfortable, make him shift his feet a little bit. Yes, that can be a big deal, especially if you, if you are able to throw hard, something significantly slower, they're just not expecting it.

And so I, you know, I was, I never threw super hard, but I was upper 70s, but my curveball was low 70s, high 60s at times. So there was quite a bit of speed difference between the fastball and the curveball.

And then there were some days that I having that extra pitch, some days I could locate that better than my fastball, and that came in handy. And some days you haven't, some days you don't.

But even being able to throw that other pitch in like a three, two count, if you can command that secondary pitch when they're expecting that fastball, I mean, you can get a lot of free strikes that way.

I.

One of the things I always tell kids is that as you get going into the high school, understand the tools you got in your toolbox, one day, a couple innings, maybe this pitch might not be working. Go to the next pitch, man. Don't be. Maybe you work on it doing. You got five pitches, eight pitches, whatever.

Work on it in between innings or whatever, man. Long toss, whatever it is. And you work on those pictures.

So I always tell guys, you know, you got more than one toolbox, man, More, more tools in your toolbox. Use them. See what works that day, maybe. And a lot of kids don't know. Hey, check out the, the, the conditions of the weather.

If it's windy, guess what's gonna move. Change up. Curveball is going to move. No, don't, you know, know the conditions, man, and that'll let your ball be effective.

I think a lot of kids don't throw enough on their own either, man, so they can understand how they pitches move. You know, throw to a spot, release it here, make it end up here. You know, they don't do enough. They're waiting on someone to tell them all the time.

And I said to learn how to be effective, to see how your pitch is. Throwing long toss. Throw a lot, man. That's what we did. That's how I learned how to throw a knuckle curve just by.

And I threw that at 16 and still throwing it now today.

Yeah, that was something I always loved doing. Is anytime I played catch, I was. I was not just throwing fastballs, I was throwing something else.

Yes, there you go.

A lot of kids did not want to throw with me.

Yes, I love that, man.

But God bless my throne partner, Mitch, man. He would go out there with me every time, no matter what.

And did it get to a point where every once in a while, a ball would go over his head and I had to go get it? Sure. But, you know, that's just part of playing the game. But always, always throwing something different.

Always trying to throw something nastier than your buddy's throwing. Just always experiment.

It's competition.

And get it.

Yes.

Get a feel for it. Don't just throw the pitch, you know, don't just, you know, check the book and okay, I'm gonna throw this pitch. It's not a menu, you know, get.

The feel for it. Get the feel for it.

Being able to, you know, feel the seam come off your finger and mess with the finger pressure, and that's something I didn't think about until later in my career. But that can make a big difference at a younger level. And just being able to have a command of your tools. Learn your tools, man. Read.

Read the manual of the tools. Don't just. Don't just throw it. Just to throw it. Throw it for a reason and get a feel for it.

There's a guy that, I think he. He got a team in the academy and says, oh, my. Our team goes to this guy here. They're 11 or so. Oh, they're showing him how to, you know, this.

You know, showing them all these gadgets and stuff, man. And I'm like, man, you don't need all that. But I never. I didn't say anything to him about it. You know, he's like, yeah, so we're learning how.

Look at all of this. Like, man, that's all good, but they're 11 years old, man.

Right.

Don't need all that.

You're labeled, label them tour. I mean, at that time frame. And just like, we're talking about hitting the other day. Launch angle.

Like, yeah, everybody has a launch angle, but they try to take a. Someone take a Pujols launch angle to give it to someone else. But it's not going to work. And same same out there on the. On the mound.

You know like say you're learning to get your Trust your arm.

Yes.

And learning the arm slot.

Yes.

A lot of times because I was talking to a kid about. We talked about pronating and they.

Yes, we.

How. What does pronoun you mean? And. And by you. If you play tennis you use that analogy. But they just. When they.

The ball's going into the ground like okay, you're not pronating.

Right.

Everything's going straight down to the ground. But learn to pronate now you're. The ball stays on your fingers longer.

Yes.

But it's just being able to talk to them, to fine tune. What are you thinking out there? A lot of them just reacting and then of course you have the parents, you have the couple. Throw strikes. Throw strikes.

I'm trying. One kid told his dad said I'm trying to throw strikes.

I've seen that on plenty of.

Yeah, you just got to. Every once in a while you want the kid to say if I do that they'll hit it.

I don't have enough outfielder. They're tired.

When it comes to. When it comes to all the new analytics stuff, Rick, I think there's some value to it. It is if you know how to use it.

Yes.

These guys at the pro level, they're working on pitch design.

Yeah.

They're saying okay, this is our number of this aspect of it. What can we do to tweak that?

But when you bring that down to a really young level where you don't know how to use that number and change doesn't really help you much. You need to be able to know how to use those numbers to your advantage to get your desired outcome. Just recording.

It's just filling up with data and putting numbers in the kids head if and he doesn't even know what it means.

It's kind of marketing after a while.

That's basically what it is. Just going into somebody's pocket.

You gotta go out and do it. You know, don't. I mean you think about it, you gotta actually go out and do it. I just knew growing up I would. I think I had.

I drew the shortest straw cause I always had to catch against Geronimo and he threw hard anyway. But what is he doing playing with the knuckleball.

But then I said maybe I gave him credit for helping me to hit the negro brothers Charlie Hoft with the knuckleball. And so. But that guy threw hard. Nobody wanted to play cats with Geronimus. They were like, I'm standing there like, I guess I'm the chosen one.

Gonna go.

No, I, I worked on that dumb, that dumb knuckleball every chance I got. And I think I only ever threw it once or twice in my whole career, but it was ready, it was ready anytime. But hey, that's another thing.

I mean, that's that that saved Tim Wakefield's career. He was supposed to be a power hitting first baseman and he was messing around in minor leagues and just kind of messing around in warmups.

And it ended up, you know, it caught a coach's eye and it ended up becoming his thing. But I remember, I think it was called knuckleball. Was that the documentary about it?

He said when they switched from metal bats to wood bats in college, he said that's what, that's what did it for him. He couldn't hack it after, after that. But, you know, he carved out a long career with that pitch just from playing with it.

Yes.

And it, you know, worked out.

R.A. dickey came to it through back door like that too.

Similar way. Yeah.

Just playing around with it and. Yeah. So it was. You never know what's gonna, what's gonna happen. Ethan is more than my podcast partner. He's my son.

And like every baseball parent, my first priority was his development as a player.

Every year we, we'd start out with a new coach and a new team making new promises, only to end up playing the same old tournaments with little to no practice in between. You know what I'm talking about? That's why I'm so thankful that we found MDNI Academy.

I first met Coach Rick over a decade ago when Ethan was just a kid. And I'll never forget the relief I felt watching his first lesson.

I knew right then that no matter what team he played for, my son would have amazing, consistent instructions. Instruction from someone who cared. Rick has trained baseball and softball players at the select, travel and even college levels.

So I knew that Ethan could continue his excellence through training approach. For his whole baseball career. He learned hitting, pitching, catching, fielding, and more all in one place.

Most of all, he learned to love the greatest game in the world and how to play it with character and integrity.

MDNI is a first class facility with plenty of tunnels for hitting and pitching instruction that open up into large areas for teaching fielding, base running, speed and agility. They even have a weight room for strength training. So if you're wearing yourself out running all over town to multiple teachers or worse.

You're counting on that new select coach to actually develop your child. You need to check out MD&I Academy today.

Go to mdaiacademy.com and contact Coach Rick to learn how you can get all the baseball instruction you need from someone who cares about your favorite player as much as you do at MDNI Academy. Okay, so we're going to move on to a new segment today that we're calling Skills and Drills.

And the question what specific skills should young pitchers work on and what drills do you use to teach those skills?

I, I would teach the same thing.

They're down, down on their throwing knee so they can take the lower body out of the equation at the time because a lot of, lot of them try to think use their legs too much at the time. Well, but, but I guess main thing is learning your body parts.

Yes.

What parts is being utilized. And, and for me I just feel the rotation is very important.

And that's why I said build your core and you can do things sit ups or planks to build your core and once again to get away from you using your arm. And the rotation itself really throws the ball. And I tell people rotation really hits the ball. Your arms are just an extension of that.

And once you learn that, I mean look at when Tom Seaver when he finished his right elbow's over his left knee. Ferguson, Jenkins. So those guys, they didn't get injured that much because they had sound fundamentals.

And back to throwing for distance and not just more than 90ft. Throw a distance farther than you have to pitch. I agree, but I just felt as a outfielder I always threw.

We got loose by throwing long and so we're prepared.

And if an outfielder does that, you need to do that as, as a pitcher, someone on the mound could being able to get control of your body and knowing what it's doing. And if you're leaning forward, you know that okay, you losing velocity there. The velocity comes from that rotation.

But you got to learn it step by step. But everybody want to do a microwave effect. You want to learn it right away. And back we talk about your hands.

And even if you have short fingers doing things to develop them, you can, you can do, do push ups, you do isometrics. I advise kids get a tennis ball and squeeze because you're going to straighten your fingers, your hands, your forearm.

So your hands, your fingers, your forearms are very important. Back to rotation or you take a doorknob. I guess a lot of people don't have doorknobs but you're turning it. You're turning. You have that same effect.

And Steve Carlton always had, I guess it was fundamentals. Look, learned from martial arts. Get a bucket of rice, put a stick in the middle. Be amazed how developed that arm will become.

But certain things that you can do to build up to that process.

And alluding to what George is saying, we gotta go back to doing basic stuff with kids, man. I think we get so caught up, I think because of social media. Oh, man, look what this like, Keep it simple. Keep it simple.

The one needs real throwing drill. I do straddle throws.

I spread them out.

Yeah. And then now you got to really engage your core and stuff. You'll be seeing kids using their upper body.

I'll be pulling, throwing because they don't know how to control their upper body.

You know, doing. Doing lunges.

Yes, lunges. Long toss. And I think as that growing up as kids, we long toss all the time. It could be rocks. As long as you don't hit nobody's window, man.

Which we did a lot of times, man, because we. You see how. How far is throw. So that's why me as a short guy, I had a strong arm. Always had a strong arm, man. We threw a football all the time.

All the time. I still do with kids that come into the academy. I throw a football, I throw softball. So I throw probably all types of baseballs.

That's why my arm is still strong. And what you're saying about. I think Nolan Ryan had an injury. So back last year at this time, I had a freak accident.

I went to catch a ball, my shoulder popped, and they said that. So one of the guys, he's like a therapist. So he comes in, he says, well, it ain't your rotator cuff, Rick, but you probably got a short tear.

I said, well, I can do this and that, but I couldn't throw BP. I can probably only throw about 25ft. So I rehab my shoulder back, man, with bands. I did two to three pound weights.

I built my arm up and my arm back again. So I just went back to basic stuff that I did was always doing to build my arm back up.

And then I went to this place called Mother Earth, which is around the corner, and she gave me this magnesium oil and this 500 milligram stuff. It took the inflammation out and I was back to shoot, man.

She prescribes magnesium to everybody. And it works. It works. Yeah.

We don't get her to advertise, man. I'm going right over there.

That's funny. Well, and I want to touch on what you're talking about, Rick, is just. Just knowing and understanding your body, right?

Yes, sir.

I. When you play for so many different coaches, they all have their own philosophy.

Yes.

And a big, you know, old school technique is. Is ice. They want you to ice everything.

Yeah.

I didn't like ice because if my, if my arm is inflamed, it's doing that for a reason. I wanted it to be warm and kind of, kind of work itself loose. Massage it. Feel where those knots are.

Yes.

If I go and put ice on it, it constricts everything and takes it away. And so it feels better temporarily, but it doesn't help me actually feel what's going on. And I caught a lot of flack for that.

I had a coach in particular who was very insistent on that, and he would bring ice with him and I'd wear it out to the car and then chuck it in the back seat. I'm like, it's just not how I wanted because I knew what was going on in my body and.

And you know what that translates to later in life because there are times that, you know, my wife will complain about, oh, well, this is stiff or this. I'm like, oh, it's, you know, it's your hamstrings. It's this. She's like, how do you know that? I'm like, how do you not know that?

It's just from getting to getting to know your body and how it works in terms of particular drills. Anything that is shoulder hip separation.

Yeah.

And that's something I didn't learn until studying different throwing motions in other sports as well. The shoulder hip separation is every sport. It is every sport. And I'm. I'm surprised that football is just now working its way into baseball.

You would think, you would think it would always be around. And I don't know if maybe it's because people don't do it casually as much.

So now it's a training technique where before it was just a hobby you do with your buddies.

Right.

But now, you know, that's in every coach's bag. They got a football in there and that wasn't around there, you know, even five years ago.

Yeah.

But I really had an epiphany when I was watching a video. They were talking to a bunch of different, you know, great quarterbacks.

You know, they don't have a lot of arm injuries and you would think they would because they're throwing a funny shaped ball like this a lot. You would think it puts a lot of strain on the arm because it starts with the feet. Yeah, everything is feet and hips and there.

A couple years ago when Dak Prescott went viral for his goofy, you know, dance he was doing in pregame, everybody was clowning on him, but he had it right. He was getting his hips out of the way to clear for his arm. And you know, they don't, they don't throw with their arm that much.

I mean, they're pat Mahomes too, 100%. And the way that his throwing mechanics, he's a shortstop and a pitcher coming out.

Tom Brady was a catcher.

Yes. So I, me, like I was saying, I thought I was so far ahead of what people are doing now with throwing a football and stuff. We just did that naturally.

I did that with my kids because they were both quarterbacks at one time, you know, Rashad playing rugby and he throws an oblong ball and now his arm is real strong. At one time when he, I was like, man, I might have to take you to a trout, man. Dude, forget this rugby stuff.

I remember there was watching a thing on Brett Favre and Holmgren was always giving him grief, telling him quit throwing laser beams because he was putting, he was putting bruises on his receivers because he's throwing the ball so hard.

I'm just amazed though, how hard these quarterbacks can throw a ball.

Yes.

I just, I don't know if they measured having a quarterback throw from the mound and seeing what velocity that they would have. But yeah, when you throw, being able to throw a good spiral with a football, that it's going to, in a sense, guarantee you how to throw a baseball.

Well, it's not just shoulder hip, but it's pronation as well because that's how you get your spiral.

And so that's why I love how you preach cross sport training, because it's all the same when you break it down to the bare minimum movements, it's all very similar. And you get so much value from, from practicing other things and getting to know your body and the movements.

Yes.

But I love the physics part of it, you know, Same here.

If you're like looking at 90 degree angle or 45 degree angle compared to a straight angle, you throw in a straight angle, okay, the fulcrum changes, but now you throw a 90 degree angle. Now you have more support, but this way you don't have that much of support. And they had a lot of pulling on your trapezius or your deltoid. Yeah.

But now you get a chance to use your forearm more when you're getting that pronation.

Yes, sir. There's a kid that he's, he's awesome and I've been watching him for a while. His name, Matt Ponotoski.

Yeah.

And he's a short style guy to cannon.

Man, he's, man, I've seen him make some throws on, I'm watching on Spectrum in a game and he, he got a cannon and even the way he throws and I was like, man, this kid's got great arms. So whoever gets. I don't know if he's going to play football or baseball. He might.

He's their quarterback.

Yes, he is.

He's Moeller's quarterback.

Yeah, he's good and I just watch his throwing. Acumen is beautiful.

Level swing, let it travel, wait for your pitch. Be aggressive out there. It's no wonder young players get confused at the plate.

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All right.

Fellas, well, that puts another one in the books here. We've got a little bit of a wrap up. We talked about all of our favorite pitchers, guys we love to watch throw.

We talked about the fact that, you know, it's good for every kid to learn to pitch, at least develop the skill. You never know when you might need it.

There was a one time in my whole life I, I was a catcher and this particular game we had gone through every other. Every kid we had and we were still. We were just getting killed. And we went through every kid we had. There was nobody else to put on the mound.

And I remember the coach, he was like, dungan, come here. You're gonna go out there and pitch. I'm like, what? He said, yeah, you're gonna go out there and pitch.

And it was every year I have a summer birthday, so every year I played with the kids in my grade one year, and then the next year I played with the kids in the grade behind me. So this was the year I was playing with the kids behind me. So I actually had some size on some other people because. And I was never a big kid.

I was a skinny little kid, but. But I could. I could throw as. As fast as anybody else could, you know, on the. On the field. And I went out there and, man, I couldn't throw a strike.

Saved my life, but I gave it a try, and this kid came out. I'll never forget. I don't. I don't remember his name, but I'll never forget what he did.

He came out and he tried to pull that old Pete Rose crouch way down and take the strike zone away from me thing. And, man, he had me down. He had me down three. And, oh, and I just said, forget it. And I just. I threw at him as hard as I possibly could.

Then they hit him in the arm. They had to take him out of game. I felt bad, you know, it was one of those things.

Did you cry?

I did not cry. I did not. But my mother gave me a stern talking to him. We got in the car.

That reminds me of freshman year. I was pitching and we were playing Col Rain, and their. Their bottom of the lineup guy was. Was real, real small, and I just. I couldn't locate it.

And I drilled him right in the thigh and he fell down. And I felt bad, but I, like, I don't know where a strike zone is. I can't find it.

Don't make any excuses.

So he got on base and whatever. And later in the game, somebody hit a ball down the right field line. And he was playing right field and he. He went hobbling after it.

He couldn't get to it. So the next play, the coach pulled him out and sat him down because he could. He couldn't run anymore.

And it was because I hit him in the leg before, and I was like, well, I guess that's the long game strategy. I don't know. It worked.

Well, that's what happened to Bert Campanerius in the playoffs against Detroit the, the pitcher purposely threw at his, at his feet and I think he ended up hitting him in the ankle. And by Bert, in the beginning he didn't really like the idea.

And I said, Bert, you have the longest bat toss in the game because he got the bat and threw it out at the pitcher and then the shortstop grabbed the badges and broke it in half. But things like that happen. But, but last one I think, but the best one was Billy North.

So he had gotten hit in the minor leagues by the pitcher and so now they both in the major league now. So, so Billy north been, he was a switch hitter.

So he, he swung at the pitch, he let the bat go on purpose, not trying to hit the guy on the mound to go out there to pick it up, think, make the pitcher think he's picking it up. So the pitcher's going to help him to pick it up. And before he knew it was a fist upside.

Well, you just never know.

But those are the days that guys, you know, I'll find a way to get you out. You butt down the first baseline, the pitcher's trying to pick it up. I'm sorry.

All right, well, we hope you've enjoyed this conversation about pitching and we hope you'll join us next week when we take on another topic. Until then, have a great week. We'll see you real soon. We hope you've enjoyed the Complete Game Podcast, the show that's all about baseball.

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