In the premiere episode of the Awareness to Action Enneagram Podcast, Mario Sikora, María José Munita and Seth "Creek" Creekmore introduce themselves by sharing their background with the Enneagram. The three hosts discuss why they want to participate in this podcast and also give a sneak peek on what to expect in future episodes.

“It became my mission in life to find a way to present the Enneagram in a way that was simple, clear, direct and accurate without losing the depth of the system, and that has been my work ever since.” - Mario Sikora [09:52]

“I think in a lot of ways you’re teaching people how to cook instead of just giving them the recipe. And I think that is how we want to approach anything.” - Seth "Creek" Creekmore [25:13]

“I think that the way in which we see human nature and how we take it and use it, how we see ourselves, and how we take ourselves lightly, and laugh about each other and ourselves, I think that is not just for a show or the podcast. It’s the way in which we use the Enneagram, and it’s part of our Awareness to Action approach.” - María José Munita [28:59]

TIMESTAMPS

[00:01] Intro

[01:30] What we’re trying to accomplish with this podcast

[02:48] Why this podcast?

[07:52] Mario’s background with the Enneagram

[12:12] Mario meeting María José

[14:55] María José’s introduction to the Enneagram

[18:19] Pattern of expression

[21:59] Creek’s origin story

[26:57] How do we put this to work?

[28:24] What to expect on this podcast

[37:36] Outro

Connect with us:

Awareness to Action

Enneagram on Demand 

Mario Sikora: 

IG: @mariosikora

Web: mariosikora.com

Pod: Enneagram in a Movie

Maria Jose Munita: 

IG: @mjmunita

Seth "Creek" Creekmore: 

IG: @creekmoremusic

Pod: Fathoms | An Enneagram Podcast

Pod: Delusional Optimism

Hi, everybody. Welcome to the Awareness to Action Enneagram podcast. I'm Mario Sikora, and I'm here with my co-hosts, María José Munita and Seth Creekmore. This is a podcast where we're going to be talking about, well, just what the title says the Awareness to Action approach to the Enneagram model of personality styles. That's pretty unique to the work that we do. Before we get going, I want to bring my co-hosts into this first of all, María José, how are you? Why don't you say hi?

Hi.

Well done. Okay, enough from you.

High performers in this group right here. High performers.

Hi, good to see Mario and Creek. It's so much fun to be here. And I'm looking forward to what's going to come out of these podcasts.

Creek.

Hello, hello, I am, I am Creek, aka Seth Creekmore. But I have too many Seths in my life, so I had to be different and went with Creek, so. Happy to be here with both of you. I love the variation of location, and age and background. It's going to be, it's gonna be lots of different perspectives here. It's gonna be fun.

Yeah, yeah.

I used to be the one mocking the older people in the room.

Mocking? I'm not mocking. Just noticing.

No, no. I hand it over to you, Creek.

So, before we get back to the mockery of the agent, what we're trying to accomplish here, because we've talked about doing this. And on the one hand, what the last thing the world needs, it seems, is another Enneagram podcast. By the way, Creek is also one of the hosts of the Fathoms podcast. And if our listener has not heard Fathoms yet, we highly recommend it, so go on over and give them a listen. But we thought we had some unique things to say. In particular, we do bring a diversity to thinking about this topic. Also, we're coming at it from a particular angle. And each of us have come to the Enneagram in different ways and work with it in different arenas and different ways, and are very different people. But we have a shared approach to things that María José and I have been teaching for quite a long time. And that Creek has been studying recently. So we're going to talk about the Awareness to Action approach to the Enneagram and come at things from that angle. So happy to be here with you guys. Happy to have this opportunity to share our point of view about things when it comes to the Enneagram. So let me ask you guys, you know, why did you guys want to do this podcast?

Well, I think for me, it's, and I've expressed this to you all as well as through learning your approach, so many of the Enneagram resources out there are, they use mostly Riso-Hudson, like the Enneagram Institute stuff or some narrative tradition or other other approaches, but it's mostly those two. And I had a hard time finding some really easily accessible content to send to people when it comes to Awareness to Action approach. It's out there, but it's not as easily accessible as podcasts. So being that it is, this is my area of expertise in podcasting, and I consume podcasts at a high rate of speed. This is really just a selfish endeavor for me. So I don't have to do the work of explaining your approach to people. So yeah, that's what this is about for me.

Yeah. Well, we've always felt that we should try to be as obscure as possible.

You've done a great job.

Yeah, make it difficult for people.

The best kept secret. The Enneagram.

Yeah.

All right. How about you, María José?

To be honest, this is very selfish as well. I like to hang out with you, the two of you, and to talk about several things, including the Enneagram. And then we thought, okay, so what is that? What is it that we could talk about, and that we need to talk about or would be useful to discuss in a podcast? And if it were another topic, I would do it happily as well. But I think that as Creek says, it's a way to get our approach to the Enneagram out there through a vehicle that it's fun to do. And I think that it's easy to consume, because just today I think podcasts are really useful solution for it.

Yeah.

I've always felt that the best podcasts sound like a conversation that I would like to be part of, and informative at the same time, right? So and, you know, we do hope to inform people with this to share our point of view on the Enneagram. And again, there's lots of literature on the Enneagram out there, very different today than when I first started working with the Enneagram, right? I mean, there were a handful of books. This was back in the 1940s. And the, you know, there were a handful of books out there. I'm exaggerating, but it was the mid '90s. And in a handful of books, podcasts weren't a thing, the internet wasn't even really a thing. So in order to find out about the Enneagram, you really had to work hard. Today, you know, you can Google Enneagram and have an endless supply of content.

So what I'm hearing is you had to walk uphill both ways in the snow to learn about the Enneagram.

That's exactly right. That's exactly right. And, and I was happy about it. I didn't whine. But, you know, but we do want to educate because we do have a particular approach to things. And that approach has been sort of hard earned and developed for a reason. Not just because we wanted to come up with a new theory of the Enneagram. But because we ran into some particular challenges in the application of the Enneagram. So we want to share that information. But we also want to have fun, and we want to discuss it and we want to explore as we're going here. One of the nice things about this group is that, you know, María José is a woman from South America. Creek is a... Where are you from, Creek? Somewhere in the Midwest, flyover country. I don't know.

Wow, ok. Indiana. I'm in Indiana, New South Bend.

There you go. Perfectly wonderful place. And, you know, we do range in age. I'm old enough to be Creek's grandfather, so. So we want to leverage that in our exploration. Okay. Go ahead, María José.

The other interesting thing, I believe, it's that our approach has also evolved. It's not like the approach. It's continuously growing and deepening and developing applications. And I think that we need some way to share it, that it's live, because we write something or we create something, and then it's not enough because it keeps expanding.

Just for listeners to understand, María José and I've been working together for what, how long, María José?

12 years. Okay. To María José's point, our point of view does change over time, right. As we get new data, we get new information, we change our minds, and that can kind of drive some people crazy. But, you know, in my mind, it shows an intellectual integrity to challenge our own ideas and refine our ideas as we go. So this conversation will be part of that ongoing exploration, I think.

12 years.

I think this is a great way to segue into kind of our own origin stories a little bit just so our listeners can get to know us a wee bit. So Mario, let's start with you, and then just kind of go through the progression of you to María José, and then I can share, I can share mine, as we were kind of getting to know the Awareness to Action approach.

I'm not quite as old as I've made myself out to be here. But I was introduced to the Enneagram in 1994. And I was familiar with a number of different personality models, you know, prior to that. Myers-Briggs test, those sort of things. But the Enneagram really struck me right, I immediately fell in love with it. I'm one of those people who immediately saw myself in one of Don Riso's early books and saw myself as a Type Eight, and became absorbed. I had never come across a model that described me or the people that I knew, as well as this did. So I became a little bit of obsessed, as many people do with the Enneagram.

A few years later, I moved into from a career in publishing into executive coaching and consulting and immediately saw that the Enneagram was a tremendously powerful tool in that space. Downside, however, is that the Enneagram, particularly at the time was, you know, it's much was originally much more of a psycho spiritual system. The literature that existed was either a little too spiritual or a little too psychological for the people that I was working with. But I'll also say that I started to feel was a little bit too theoretical. And as I started using what I had learned from a number of really talented Enneagram teachers, and when I started applying it in the crucible of the business world, I started to see that some of the ideas just didn't hold up as well as I needed them to. And some of the concepts didn't hold up as well. So it became my mission in life to find a way to present the Enneagram in a way that was simple, clear, direct and accurate without losing the depth of the system. And that has been my work ever since.

So one more, one more question for you, Mario is, you have a background of not only philosophy, but also you went to seminary as well. And so this is kind of just learning the nature of humanity has kind of been a focus of yours for a while. What really convinced you that the Enneagram was the thing that you wanted to focus your life on?

So yes, to your point, out of high school, I went to seminary for a couple of years. After that, you know, studied, my degree was in liberal studies, which meant it was primarily literature and philosophy was the bulk of my coursework. And I have always been interested in human nature of these so called bigger questions that, you know, some would refer to as spirituality. At the same time, I tend to be pretty pragmatic and results oriented and business minded in my approach to the world. So I've worked to sort of combine those yin and yang sort of points of view about things, right, the the humanities, and the practical.

And so for me, the Enneagram became the tool, because nothing else was able to blend these two things in a way that I had seen before, right? How can we truly deeply understand ourselves and other people, and then use that understanding to make real change in our world? And quite frankly, I think that last piece is one of the things that was missing in the Enneagram early on, right? Okay, I know these types, what do I do about it? Right? Some of the literature was, you know, well just stop being like this type and being like that one instead. It's not that easy. And that's not what the work is. So for me, it's been about how do we take these profound ideas and profound insights and turn them into real results?

What was your first memory of meeting María José?

I don't know that I have one. So no, I'll tell the story that's really going to irritate her.

Okay. That's what we're here for.

2009.

And I was kind of a, you know, joke that we have going back and forth. So I first met María José, at an IEA conference. María José, what was it in Las Vegas? What year was that? Do you remember?

Yeah, so 2009, I was on the board of directors, the IEA. I think I was President-Elect at the time. And there was a meeting of the international affiliates prior to the conference, and María José was there. And she used her attendance there to sort of muscle her way on to the IEA Board of Directors. And so we got to know each other when we both served as on the IEA board. So go ahead, María José. I can see you, you know, gnashing your teeth there.

Look, we know we're all different. We see things differently. And that's your recollection of that event, and that's fine.

Well, María José, feel for you to counter with your, with your first memory of meeting Mario.

It was at that meeting. To me, there was this table with all the board members. They all looked very foreign to me. I was just arriving from the airport to Las Vegas. And I saw all these people, and they were supposed to be all really smart. Great people evolved. I mean, they were board members.

They should be floating five inches off the ground.

Yes, yes, I was very excited to be there. And they announced that they would like someone from the attendance from the different affiliates to become a board member. This was the first time this was happening. And I started looking around, looking for good candidates. And my candidate was someone from Finland. And I tried to convince her to become the person who would join the board. And I was kind of rallying people so that they would vote for her. Something happened in the along the way and I became a board member.

It's kind of like how Dick Cheney became Vice President. You know, he said, Sure, George, I'd be happy to lead the search for Vice President, and you know, none of these folks are working out. No, I'm only teasing.

Well, that's what I did when I became president of the IEA. So that's my side of the story.

So how about María José, tell us about your introduction to the Enneagram and your path.

Sure. So the first time I heard about the Enneagram was also around the mid '90s. I used to attend some workshops with somebody who went through Mario's. I mean, through the same training that Mario went through. She came back to Chile and started teaching the Enneagram amongst other things, and it didn't make a big impression on me. I think it was because I took an assessment, and I came out as a Seven. I didn't resonate with that a lot. Yes, I did, believe it or not. And so I'm wondering why didn't make an impression. And I think it's because of that. And but my parents went through longer trainings, and we had income books at home. So it was a thing for years that was there, but I didn't pay much attention to.

Years later, I was working in the corporate world, and decided to take another training with the same woman. And then for other reasons, I decided to become a coach and consultant. And when I made that decision, I decided that the Enneagram could probably be a very good tool for me as a coach. So I went to the states, and went to the Enneagram Institute and started with them. Then I started, I mean, several trainings, like I went there for two years. And then, in one of these trainings, I met someone who said, you know, I talked to this guy the other day. He has this weird theory about the instincts. And can you believe that and he says this and that. So we started talking about this guy who had this theory about the instincts, or these different ideas, and that there was no stacking, that there was a particular order of the instincts. And so there was my first, the first time I heard about Mario.

Then when I joined the board of directors, mid-2009, and then when I went to the first board meeting in the beginning of 2010, I met him. And I said, Oh, so you're the one. I didn't know that he was the one, you know. I didn't have the name and the story together in my mind. And we started talking, I very quickly started studying with him virtually. And then in person in Denver, I think was the first time with you and your co-author, Bob Tallon. And from then on, we started collaborating. I realized that, to me, at that point, I saw it as the missing piece in terms of how do I translate what I already know, into something that it's easy to digest for people, but also useful and applicable. So I started combining what I knew and his approach. And then I started realizing that it wasn't even necessary. That, of course, we bring what we bring, and what I already knew about the Enneagram is still there. But I realized I noticed that with that approach, it was just so much easier for me to teach it, to use it and to share it with other people.

What was the one part of Mario's system that you found the hardest to accept or agree with?

I thought your question was going to be different when you started.

What's the worst part of working with Mario is...

No, no. I'll share what I thought was coming later anyway. But the hardest, I think it was for me these patterns of expression, not harder, but it was the most different. So I took it as a hypothesis to be tested.

Just for those that are new to this, what is the pattern of expression real quick?

So, for example, if I'm a navigator, what we believe is that there's only one way in which the three instinctual biases expressed. So if I'm a navigator, then the secondary domain would be transmitting, and the third or tertiary domain would be preserving. So I couldn't be navigating, preserving, transmitting. It's just one way in which they manifest. It's not a stacking, but it's kind of different profiles. So they're basically three kinds of people: preservers, navigators and transmitters. And the order or the pattern in which the other two express, it's only one, only one way three combinations.

And if I could just add to that, right.

No.

Okay, sorry. So, first of all, most people talk about self preservation, social and either sexual or one to one. For a variety of reasons that we'll get into in future episodes, we call them preserving, navigating and transmitting. And this is something that a lot of people seem to have a difficult time with in what I teach. But I think we really have to step outside and see something different, right? In that this idea that there's a stack is kind of problematic, right? Because it takes these three things and treats them independently and disconnectedly. And people start to see, okay, well, there are six potential variations, you know, three times three times two, whatever. Whereas what we're suggesting is that, like María José said, there's only three variations people hear, right, and these things express themselves in a particular way in each of those people. Right, that is, and you know, again, not everybody buys that, that people, you know, see it differently. But it is our experience that that's how it works in the real world.

And what I did was, take it, as I said, as a hypothesis and look around, see if it made sense to me in terms of like what I saw in people, and it did, it took a while. I wanted to not just repeat the things that were taught to me. And that's how I take the Enneagram and anything else. And this was the most challenging, and I did that. But there was something even more challenging, I think. And it was not necessarily related to the Enneagram, but how this approach sees the world and how skepticism is such a big part in how we take ideas and challenge them. And I had a lot of ideas in my mind to be challenged. And that took a while as well. But now I enjoy it. So that was hard. But I would say that it's one of the things that I liked the most about the way, in the way that we see things.

Well, I guess I'll introduce myself a little bit more.

What's your origin story here, Seth? How did you become a superhero?

Yeah. Well.

Sorry, wrong podcast.

My parents died when I was six and classic. No, yeah. So I do a podcast. Fathoms, an Enneagram podcast. Some of you may be familiar with it. Maybe not? Probably not.

They should be. I highly recommended it, especially the episodes I was on.

Right? The only ones worth listening to. So I do I do this podcast with two other guys, Seth Abram and Drew Moser. Wonderful people in their own right.

Absolutely.

So Seth and I, we both play music. And one time we were doing a show together, and he brought up this thing that he had been learning the Enneagram. It's this really short questionnaire. I think it was like, six different questions. And it nailed me as a Four. Looking back and like reading through that first questionnaire and reading, it's like, it's a little inaccurate, but it's still got me. And so that's kind of, that's when it kind of dawned on me. But I didn't really take it seriously.

I've always had a deep interest in self improvement and understanding how I work and how others work. And so then eventually, it just kept popping up here, there. And then Seth, the other Seth got really into it and would not shut up about it. So I was kind of forced to learn by proxy. And then I'm like, actually, this is kind of interesting. And we started attending conferences together and other teachings we got. We went to IEA Georgia with Lynda Roberts and Nan Henson and did some work down there with them. And that's kind of what started my interest in it. And then we, then I met Drew. Drew and Seth have been friends for a long time, and we decided to start this podcast. And kind of through that is how I became more aware of Awareness to Action. Mario has been on two-three times something like that.

I think Twice, but the first time I talked so much, you had to make it two episodes.

Yeah.

And you weren't really present in the last episode. Like your soul was there.

Well, this is true. I've made guest appearances without even being there. Yes, yes.

But anyways, so it's in we've just kind of gotten to know Mario and MJ over over the past year or so. And it's just been it's been lovely. And this is another reason why I wanted to help with his podcast is really, Awareness to Action is mostly known for their instincts. But the tools that y'all provide, are well beyond just new names for instincts, and I think that people need to know about it. I think it's been really helpful in my own journey of just figuring out what is, what is the most useful. And we've had this conversation before, Mario, of, I think in a lot of ways you're teaching people how to cook, instead of just giving them the recipe. And I think that is how we want to approach anything is, how do I know when a steak is done? Other than setting a timer, right? What's the process is going on behind the scenes, so I can better intuitively cook a steak, or cauliflower, depending on what you like.

Thank you for that. Yeah. What's interesting to me about that, is that what you're appreciating here, Creek, it's very frustrating for a lot of people. A lot of people want the recipe. And they say, Okay, step one, step two, step three, and how do I do it? And this approach is more about how to cook. And probably it's not for everyone, because some people need the step by step thing. But I think that it takes you a lot further to know how to cook. And I would not change that.

Yeah, I think cooking analogies will come up quite a lot in this podcast, but everyone has to start with the recipe.

Not for Mario.

Yeah, not for Mario. Everyone...

Only eating analogies are not for me.

Eating analogies. Everyone has to start with the recipe. You have to learn to, you want to experience that. And you need to start there before you learn how to cook. And I think you don't need, not everyone needs to learn how to cook. And I think that's okay. But I think it's really, really, really useful if you want to actually get somewhere interesting, and creative, and exhilarating. So.

So for me, I'm a big fan of tools that help us see ourselves more clearly and see other people more clearly. But the reason that is valuable, is because it's the first step in work on ourselves. Right? When the Buddha was teaching mindfulness, he was not teaching mindfulness as the the goal. He was teaching it as the foundation for doing the work. And so for me, if we're going to spend time on these things, we want to be able to translate it into ways that help us become... that help us flourish, that help us live happier lives, more skillful lives, and to improve our relationships with the people around us.

So for me, it's all about how do we put this to work. And usually, to put something to work. Number one, you have to boil it down. To use a cooking analogy, we have to boil something down to its essence right to its core. Establish some really clear first principles, and then get into the process of taking those first principles and becoming a creative chef. That's the way I think about it is you know, you have to simplify. And then that simplification opens up a world of variation and variability to you.

I love that. I think this transitions us nicely into, I'd say, the final section of this particular episode, is what do you hope that people will walk away from after listening to an episode? What is it that they can expect in the coming episodes?

There's the theory, of course, I mean, we will be talking about the Enneagram, our approach, how we define the terms, how we apply the concepts that we work with. But as important as that, to me is where we're coming from when we use the Enneagram. I think that the way in which we see human nature, and how we take it, and use it, how we see ourselves, and how we take ourselves lightly and laugh about each other and ourselves. I think that is not just for a show or like the podcast, it's the way in which we use the Enneagram. And it's part of the Awareness to Action approach. So if we did that lightness and compassion for ourselves and each other, if you put on top of that, the theory, I think those two go together and hopefully that will come across.

For me in addition to those things, it is... So I've been working with this for a long time. So almost 30 years of working with the Enneagram, 25 of those making my living using the Enneagram and the work I do with leaders and people in organizations. I do this work because it benefits people. It helps them, helps them be more skillful in the work they do, but also in their lives. I'm a father of four boys. I have my own business. I have a lot on my plate, and anything that I am going to teach other people has to have some real world benefit, right? It's not just theory, it's not just, you know, this is what I learned from somebody else. This is what I heard from somebody else. But no, these are the things about the Enneagram that I have taken out and driven around the block, and made sure they hold up. And so I want to share that with people. That really is my passion at this point in my life, of sharing what I have learned through experience with other people.

Because you know, there's the old saying that, you know, smart people learn by their mistakes, smarter people learn by other people's mistakes. And so I want to share with, you know, my mistakes and how I've corrected them when it comes to theory and application to the Enneagram with other people, so it can accelerate their teaching. We're also going to challenge people, right? It's in my nature to challenge people. That's one of the things I... I'm a big fan of Riso-Hudson's work. And one of the things I like is their label of the Eight as the challenger. And I think that's really, really accurate. That's part of my nature, to challenge things. And it's through that challenging that we get to truth. So we are going to challenge some ideas here. We're going to challenge each other. We're going to challenge the listener, I think, and we invite that challenge back. Right. So I think people will be able to get to us through social media or something, a way to still to be determined, but we invite feedback.

Yeah, and I think that we didn't talk about when we met Creek, but I would say that the reason, one of the reasons why we liked the idea of having you, Creek, in the podcast is that you also challenge us, and with what you bring, you make us think, and you have a very kind of different perspective. You are part of a different generation, and you have been exposed to different things. And I think that's really necessary to continue to, not to get comfortable with kind of talking to each other and agreeing with everything we say, but to get fresh ideas, and more people challenge us with a kind of sound background and ideas that people that we also respect. And that's the case with you. So I think that what you what the listeners will see here with us challenging each other. It's real. It's kind of the kind of relationship we have outside of the podcast. And hopefully, we will be able to replicate it here.

I agree. And I'm looking forward to being able to challenge as much as possible. I'm hoping to try to anticipate all the, all the potential pushback from our listeners, just to because I think I've experienced you both personally and professionally. And y'all aren't bad people, you're open minded and compassionate and kind and caring.

Can I get, can I get that in writing, a quote and maybe put it in my LinkedIn profile.

We'll make t-shirts for the podcast. The problem happens when we divorce the humanity of the other person. When we don't disagree, when we disagree with something that they say, when we feel threatened by an idea, we feel threatened by that person. And I think I would like for this, what I hope people can expect from this podcast is for me, to push back in some areas as a way to gain more clarity, while also, hopefully we can demonstrate how to hold that tension of ideas of I feel uncomfortable about this. And that's okay, let's find more clarity about this, so we can continue moving forward in agreement or disagreement. And that's okay.

So that's one thing that I hope people can expect from this, as well as just a lot of great information about how Awareness to Action approaches it. And you don't have to agree with it. And that's great, but you can at least know where and why Awareness to Action does and teaches what they do. So hopefully lots of practical stuff, a lot of exploring things that I think will be new perspectives. Everything from the instinctual biases, to I'm sure we'll even get into what does it mean in Awareness to Action approach like, what does it mean to incorporate spirituality. Or things that aren't, quote, unquote, verifiable? What does that look like? And how do we hold those things? And I think that's going to be a really interesting conversation when we get to it. So that's, y'all are in for a ride. Let me tell ya, it's gonna be great.

So dear listener, one of my favorite quotes is, from the philosopher David Hume, that truth springs from argument amongst friends. And argument is not necessarily a sign of hostility. It is just the debating of ideas, right? It is the exploration of ideas and other points of view. And if the Enneagram teaches as nothing else is that people see the world differently. And there's nothing wrong with that. There's nothing wrong with bringing your own flavor to something, your own style, right? They're different styles of music. There are different styles of literature. There's different styles of everything. And we make a mistake, when we start to say, well, this style is better than that style. Instead of just saying, I like this style, right? It works for me. It brings me pleasure. And that style, yeah maybe not so much. Right. And that's, you know, that's why God made chocolate and vanilla. So you know, we'll share our ideas. We'll challenge ideas, and hopefully come closer to the truth for the ever.

Yeah, I think we all would like to think at least that we want to see the world clear. And that's really what the Enneagram is about is helping us see clearer. And, sure we can distort that in so many different ways to see the reality how we want to see it instead of how it actually is. But if you're really into the journey of what the Enneagram has to bring, then it's about seeing the world and reality as it is as clear as possible. So I hope that's an invitation to enter the conversation in the journey with us.

I'll wrap us up real fast here. So this has been our first episode of the Awareness to Action Enneagram podcast. We hope we've given folks an idea of what our starting point is. And in future episodes, we'll start talking about specific ideas. We're going to start off talking about the instinctual bias, these things that seem to precede me wherever I go. And you know, as to to clarify our ideas about that and discuss it. It's always fun stuff to talk about. And from there, we've got a whole bunch of other stuff we're gonna get into. So thank you guys for being here for this episode, and I'm really looking forward to this journey with you both.

Thanks for listening to the Awareness to Action Enneagram podcast. If you're interested in more information or talking to Mario, MJ or myself, feel free to reach out to us through the links in the show notes or by emailing info@awarenesstoaction.com. All episode transcriptions and further information can be found at awarenesstoaction.com/podcast.