Episode Notes for The JudgeMental Podcast – Episode 34: "Take the Wheel"

Welcome to another candid and insightful episode of The JudgeMental Podcast! Hosts Hugh and Christine, the minds behind judge-y, dive deep into the realities of courtroom transparency, judicial accountability, and the quirks of legal practice.

In this episode:

The hosts recount recent experiences of being denied access to courtrooms and discuss the importance of public access and transparency in the justice system.

Reflections on the value of observing court proceedings, the evolution of courtroom dynamics post-pandemic, and the impact of Zoom court on legal practice.

A lively discussion about the quality of lawyering, the role of judges in maintaining standards, and the sometimes comical moments that happen in court.

A deep dive into the confusion between GALs (Guardians ad Litem) and FOCs (Friend of the Court), and why it matters for families and children.

The critical issue of witness separation, recent case law, and the practical (and ethical) dilemmas attorneys face in family court.

Updates on new Supreme Court rules affecting confidentiality in domestic violence cases, and what that means for public access.

Listener shout-outs, behind-the-scenes banter, and a preview of the next episode—where Hugh and Christine promise to "drink beers and bitch" about the latest in legal drama.

Mentioned in this episode:

The judge-y app and website (judge-y.com), your go-to platform for judicial accountability.

Notable cases and legal concepts, including the importance of due process and the evolving rules around courtroom procedure.

Join the conversation:

Streaming in all 50 states and downloaded in 13 countries, The JudgeMental Podcast is your front-row seat to the realities of the legal system. Subscribe, leave a review, and check out judge-y.com for more resources and updates.

You are listening to

The Judgemental Podcast.

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We're Hugh and Christine, the Minds

Behind Judgy, the revolutionary app

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that empowers you to judge the judges.

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It's pastime for judicial accountability

and transparency within the courts.

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Prepare for sharp insights, candid

critiques, and unshakable honesty from

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two lawyers determined to save the system.

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We need some justice.

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Justice, my fine justice.

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And I wanna ring, be in public.

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I wanna ring, be in public crowd.

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Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Jesus.

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Take the wheel.

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That should be the intro.

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LOL.

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Y'all judgemental.

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Podcast Wednesday.

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Today we have, we are sending a letter

to the judges after recent events of

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being locked in the courtroom, denied

access 'cause we are very concerned

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about the transparency in court.

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If you have not listened to episode.

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19.

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I think that is Hugh's Solo episode.

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My mama called me yesterday.

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She's behind and she said that was

one of our best ones and I agree.

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Anyway,

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Speaker: she's way behind.

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You need to get on her

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Speaker 2: failure.

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I know she feels bad LOL.

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She also was like, you

know who I really like?

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Is that Josh guy y'all had

on his story's so compelling.

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So we have sent a letter, essentially,

um, we've sent it to all family

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court judges and CC'd, Maisha van.

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We probably should send it to

all judges, all other judges.

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Although I have not heard of

anyone being denied access to

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any courtrooms other than family.

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Have you?

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Speaker: No.

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But that's just who's reached out.

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Mm-hmm.

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To us.

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Mm-hmm.

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Speaker 2: Or physically done it to me.

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Speaker: Oh yeah.

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Yeah.

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Absolutely.

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Speaker 2: Um, and so basically

transparency, you know, we had this heated

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debate about Zoom Court, um, and I am.

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Extraordinarily concerned about the

lack of access to public courts.

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I mean, I really would like for students,

for law students, for lawyers to just

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go sit in court and watch and see.

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'cause you can learn a lot.

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And I enjoy it.

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Speaker: I wish I had done it a lot more.

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Well, how, how often when you've been

sitting in there in the last couple

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months have you said, oh, you know,

that's a really great way to do it

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and you actually learned something.

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I, you know, I digress.

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Yeah.

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. No, that's true.

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I've sat, you know, early on in my

career, I sat through jury trials.

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Mm-hmm.

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And people have to, it's a lot more

performative, but it's a lot more, it's

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all you've thought through, down to the

word a lot more in those circumstances.

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Mm-hmm.

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Than you have to in, in circumstances

where you don't have a jury and you can

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pivot and you can, you, you can change

things up as you're sitting there.

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, And I was.

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I learned a lot, especially on

the cross-examination stuff.

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That is where the, the defense attorneys

really shine and, , sitting in court

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was, was great for that reason.

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But you don't see much out of the

judges in those circumstances because

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they are just sort of the referee,

they're not the decision maker in a

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lot of things in those jury trials.

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So, yeah, I don't, I don't remember any

major takeaways from sitting, sitting

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in court from a, from the judges.

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Standpoint,

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Speaker 2: when I first came back

to Louisville, , I would sit and

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I was doing almost all family.

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I was in a situation where I

couldn't take criminal cases 'cause

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there was someone else there.

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But I would sit in court and watch some

of the criminal, and I remember watching,

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I didn't know him at the time, but,

, watching Justin Brown do a preliminary

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hearing and being like, God, he's good.

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You know what I mean?

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I always really enjoyed preliminary

hearings, especially with public

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defenders because they were like

indoctrinated to make 'em 10 or 15

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minutes, but they knew every like, you

know, and they knew the cops and it

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could pull out certain information.

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Yep, yep.

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, And I just always found that so

fascinating, but, you know, and

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I think that the quality's gone

down because there's no oversight

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and because it's a shit show,

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Speaker: the quality of.

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Speaker 2: Lawyers.

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Speaker: Oh,

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Speaker 2: I mean, I

have not, you're right.

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I haven't seen, I saw a really great,

uh, argument in, , that case that we're

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following by the custodial evaluator,

the two, the two attorneys on that.

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Yeah.

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They did a hell of a job.

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They, both of them,

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Speaker: yeah.

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I mean, I don't remember.

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And this was in our last episode, I was

thinking about how things have changed

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since the pandemic where we were always

sitting over in court watching arguments.

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'cause when you were just sitting there in

motion hour, you had nothing else to do.

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You couldn't be like

typing on your laptop.

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Mm-hmm.

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'cause it makes noise.

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You were a captive audience, you

got to sit through it a lot more.

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One of the things I love about

Zoom is I can recognize when

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my case's name is called.

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I don't have to watch everything

that happens before that.

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I can sit there and be doing something

else and you know, not be billing

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my client for just dead time.

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But I did watch a lot more arguments

and when we sit in court nowadays,

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I don't feel like the arguments are

very different than they were before.

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I don't think, God, this

play is going downhill.

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I, I, I really haven't.

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Speaker 2: This play is going downhill.

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I like that playing.

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I mean this play, yeah,

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Speaker: I just, I, it, it

seems pretty much the same.

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You have some really good stuff.

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You have some really lazy phone it in

type attorneys, you have some people that

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they're gonna practice just by trying

to talk until everyone's exhausted.

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You have the people that are

always mad and red in the face,

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no matter what the case is.

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Yeah.

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You use the, the same cast of characters.

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It just seems it's, they're

different characters now.

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But, uh,

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Speaker 2: I've watched a

lot more hearings recently.

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Yeah,

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Speaker: you haven't

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Speaker 2: watched very many hearings.

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Haven't I haven't watched very

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Speaker: many hearings in my

entire career of other people.

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I mean, you just, what, what occasion

would I have to be spending my

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billable, potential billable hours

to go sitting watching somebody else

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through a hearing, because it's a

crapshoot on whether it's gonna be.

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Something you're gonna

get anything out of.

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Speaker 2: See, I don't know.

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I used to all, I just love watching court.

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Speaker: Mm.

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Speaker 2: I do.

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I love it.

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And I don't, I didn't say I

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Speaker: just liked it at all.

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I just, it wasn't, it didn't fit

into my, it didn't fit in, it didn't

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make any sense for me to be doing it.

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That's probably why I

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Speaker 2: drive a Ford.

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, Anyway.

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But I used to, especially when I

came back, I loved to watch 'em.

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And I think the quality has gone

down in, the hearing component of it.

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You.

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I don't think I heard

an objection yesterday.

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Oh my God, I forgot to tell you.

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On Monday, one of the attorneys was like,

your Honor, he just said stupid shit.

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And I'm like, oh, this is the this is

the quality of the Louisville family bar.

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Speaker: Wait, they said

the word stupid shit.

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Speaker 2: Well, the, it was

pro se versus an attorney.

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And the guy, I think he did say stupid

shit, you know, said it real low.

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But then his attorney's like, your

Honor, he just said stupid shit.

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And I just thought,

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Speaker: so here's the thing though.

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As an attorney, if you do something

in a lazy way or you object to

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something and you don't, you

can't cite the rule or the proper

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objection, which almost never happens.

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Now, if you had a judge that

said, okay, what's the objection?

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You know, you don't

get to just say object.

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You have to tell me what it

is, and then tell me, and you

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are stunned and think, oh shit.

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You guarantee the attorney next time.

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And every time after that,

they're gonna come in and they're

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gonna know their objections.

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Mm-hmm.

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It comes from the top.

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If I agree, people are getting lazy

and sloppy with the rules and stuff,

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it's because the expectations aren't

there and they're not held to the

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rules and it, it's just human nature.

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Mm-hmm.

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, When I've practiced in other jurisdictions

and they have certain rules that we don't

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have, some certain procedures, things

that may not be substantive, but they

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do things differently here or there.

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I've come out of it and just like,

okay, I'm gonna remember that for

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every time I go in here, I'm not

gonna make that mistake again.

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Yeah.

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Or I'm gonna introduce myself in

the way that everyone else does.

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You.

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It's pretty easy to program excellence

in procedure and evidentiary

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rules and all of that stuff.

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You don't have to be a brilliant

attorney to get your head around the

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evidentiary rules and put them on the

record correctly and preserve Yep.

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Issues on appeal for your clients

by making the right objection.

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It's just,

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Speaker 2: but are you ever, if you're not

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Speaker: expected to do it, but from

the judge, why are you gonna bother?

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That's just the skills that are lost.

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Speaker 2: It is.

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But have you ever been like a tattletale.

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Been like, your Honor,

you just said stupid shit,

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Speaker: your

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Speaker 2: Honor.

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I don't know.

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I was just like, it was pitiful, pathetic.

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I was, I

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Speaker: was always appalled by that.

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Yeah.

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I would, I was always appalled by that.

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If I, the, it was super frustrating, but

I also realized that I had the other side.

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Yeah.

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If, when I am saying something

and making an argument there.

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Making an appeal to meanness or fairness

and not making a legal argument.

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Mm-hmm.

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Then I know that I'm winning.

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Speaker 2: Exactly like you had him.

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He said it, everybody knew he said it.

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He said stupid shit.

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'cause he just lost.

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Speaker: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And you won

and it's like, your honor.

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Yeah.

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, I saw one too.

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I emailed you about this 'cause

my phone died when I went down

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there after I got mad and decided

to drive down to court Watch.

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And I was like, and you know how,

what an addict I am to my phone.

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But I was like, oh my

God, I gotta stay here.

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Wonder

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Speaker: why it died.

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Speaker 2: I know because I went down

there 'cause I was expecting court.

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The screen hadn't been off in

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Speaker: 13 hours.

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Seriously.

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Speaker 2: I'm just sitting

there texting everybody.

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Judge just denied me access to court.

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I drove down there.

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I'm texting lawyers, TikTok, judge.

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One.

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, When I was sitting outside, I told the

sheriff, I don't know if I told you this.

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I was like, I expect you come out here

and tell me every single time when a

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case is called, one of the attorneys

is like, what did Denise do to you now?

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But anyway, this is why we're sitting

in the hallway, I guess, while you

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Speaker: were sitting

over there in person.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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I mean, all the lawyers

came up, you know, I, I

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Speaker: along, that's how you

know along wasn't watching TikTok.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I get along with

almost all of 'em, but, . Anyway,

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so we, there was a hearing and with

an FOC, the TikTok judge comes out.

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First thing she says is, , ms.

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So-and-so are you A GAL or an FOC,

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YouTube.

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So you can see his facial expressions

and it's like, look at the file.

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Speaker: That's not a

meaningless minor distinction.

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Yes, it is a, this determines how we

go about presentation of evidence.

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And it, it factors into every other

part of this hearing, and it's right

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there on every document, single

document in that case file from the

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ones that's right under the cover.

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To the ones on the last page

and very easily discernible.

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Speaker 2: So her staff,

listen, this is what you do.

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Okay?

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You gotta help her out.

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She can't get there early and

she can't get there on time

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and she can't read apparently.

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But on the front of it, oh my God.

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You put petitioner and then you put a

little arrow and then you put their name

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and the attorney representing that person.

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Then you put respondent, and then

you put a little arrow and then

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you put their name, and then you

put the attorney representing them.

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Then you put the child's attorney

and in bold capital letters you

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write F, then you write O, and

then you write C if it's an FOC.

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And if it's a GAL, you write G and

then you write A, and then you write L.

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Speaker: Yeah.

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But do you also need to include the

definition of each one of those so

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they're not used interchangeably

like they are so often?

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Speaker 2: Oh, oh my goodness.

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You'd have to be high level to get

that joke, but that is so true.

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The, the judges sometimes I

don't think know the difference.

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Speaker: It's, well, if you were

one of the ones that practiced a

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lot of your career during a time

where they were both used the same.

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I could get for the first little while

after they were, the court case came down

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and they were separated out, but it's been

over a decade now since that happened.

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They, if we, it, there's a bare minimum,

we should all know the difference.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's one of those

things too, it's like, you know, if.

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We had this platform that's

obviously growing and growing

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and growing and growing.

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Three months anniversaries

tomorrow, literally streaming

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in all 50 states, downloaded in

13 countries, four continents.

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Everyone, like people in

eight in Singapore are hearing

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about the TikTok judge.

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Okay.

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Speaker: I I, that, that just

goes to prove that they're just

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in shit going on, on throughout

the world right now, apparently.

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Speaker 2: Or that family

court is a problem everywhere.

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Okay.

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I'm

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Speaker: kidding.

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Speaker 2: No, I know.

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Yeah,

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Speaker: no, of course.

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Speaker 2: But, , you just gotta have

a pep talk and just, you know, just

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today, every single hearing I have,

I'm gonna know whether or not the

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child's attorney is a GAL or FOC.

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That's just set the bar.

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Well, sure.

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You know, and then you give

I TikTok, judge, I will give

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you a $25 Sephora gift card.

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If you can make it one week with properly

knowing if the person is a GAL or FOC,

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Speaker: oh my Lord, I

don't bet against her.

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I've learned that lesson.,

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But you know what, one of the reasons

this happens, I think honestly

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is the same people are appointed

on virtually every case for both.

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So, you know, you're just like, okay,

well there's, there are kids issues.

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I'm gonna see this person, that

person or these all over there.

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, The, you know, it, it's, it's

gonna be the same people.

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You know, your FOC on the case that was

called right before this, when you're

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probably GAL on the one after which, which

frigging role are you doing now since

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I've appointed you on every single case?

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Yeah.

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And by the way.

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First, tell me whether you're FOC and

or your GAL, and then see if you can

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remember on the spot without looking

down at the thing, the client's name.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah.

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Can

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Speaker: you remember the

kid's name without flipping

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through your file to read it?

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Bet you can't.

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'cause you've got 500 cases

that you've been appointed on

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Speaker 2: and that these are

people that are being appointed

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to represent children's.

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Best interest or be investigative

for the children's best

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interest or child, whatever.

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Yeah.

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That don't know the kids' names

at hearings that are billing

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hundreds of dollars an hour,

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Speaker: getting age wrong

or mispronouncing them

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in such a way that like

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Speaker 2: insulting,

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Speaker: you've got the, you've got the

parents who might've spent, have got

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spent thousands of dollars by the time

you're in a hearing on the GAL and.

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You want them because the judge

has given you the authority to boss

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the parents around and assert your

parenting style on this family, and

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you want them to actually follow it.

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Maybe they'd have some respect

for what you have to say.

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If you could actually learn to pronounce

the kid's name correctly or remember

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what it is before you're sitting there

at the hearing and have to look through

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your notes to figure out the kid's name.

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That's pretty pathetic, but

it happens all the time.

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Speaker 2: All the time.

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Again, get a Post-it note

out there for your staff.

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Okay.

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On the front of your file that

you're carrying to court, write down

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two children named Joe and Jimmy.

357

You know?

358

Yeah.

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It's like, it's not rocket science.

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, But this is gonna piss you off.

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I don't even know.

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Sometimes I don't think, , Hugh reads all

my text messages and emails and I can't

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imagine why 'cause I send like 1400.

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That,

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Speaker: that actually isn't true.

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I, I do.

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Speaker 2: No, I'm kidding.

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, I'm joking, but the email I sent you

from court, the opening line, I don't

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think I can say it here 'cause it

is kind of probably inappropriate.

370

Do you remember?

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Speaker: Oh, on the day

you were over there?

372

Speaker 2: Yeah.

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I said my phone died.

374

I've been listening to

her talk Think for Oh

375

Speaker: yeah.

376

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

377

Speaker 2: So, , but this happened,

so it was a hearing that was

378

not on time, I don't think.

379

Maybe it was 'cause something

had been canceled before.

380

We have one lawyer, one pro se

parent, a attorney represented

381

the child, which was an FOC.

382

, And guess what happened?

383

FOC stayed in the room

during the entire testimony.

384

Speaker: Oh, no, no, no.

385

I remember you.

386

I.

387

Oh my God.

388

Yeah, you, you were, you talked

about segregation of witnesses.

389

You talked about FOC staying in the

room, and I just, I do remember that.

390

I think I've tried to block it

out because it's just so basic.

391

And if it weren't basic enough, if

it weren't something that everyone

392

should know, there's now published

case law that says, Hey, guess what?

393

You have to do this, like this separation

of these people from the courtroom.

394

May not be in the statute.

395

It's assumed that everyone knows

the civil rules of separating

396

witnesses, but now it's in case law.

397

This is the law.

398

You don't allow these people in there.

399

And this law came out very, very recently.

400

And they all should know about it.

401

Yeah.

402

Why are you leaving this person in

the room to hear everyone's testimony

403

and change what they're going to say

as a witness based on what they hear?

404

Speaker 2: And why are witness, I mean,

witnesses can't be listening to fact

405

testimony when they're gonna testify.

406

No, it's again, so basic.

407

But here is my question.

408

Question.

409

, The rule was not invoked.

410

And you know, listeners, the rule invoking

the rule is the separation of witnesses.

411

That's what it means.

412

Yeah.

413

But the rule was not invoked, but.

414

It's fascinating because does the FOC

have an ethical obligation to separate

415

themselves knowing that witnesses

shouldn't hear other witnesses?

416

I don't know the answer.

417

Speaker: I mean, I don't know if it's an

ethical, ethical issue, but let's just

418

say you feel very strongly and you have

testimony that you believe is necessary

419

to protect the interests of your client.

420

Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.

421

Speaker: Which is kind of

your job, but let's just say.

422

It's a safety concern, right?

423

Mm-hmm.

424

If you are not sent out, someone

could then object to you testifying.

425

Speaker 2: Yeah.

426

Speaker: So

427

Speaker 2: true.

428

Speaker: If you really want to do

your job and get that across, maybe

429

avoid being excluded because the

judge forgot to follow the rules.

430

Speaker 2: Here's the thing, though,

I don't, and I don't know the answer.

431

If you don't invoke the

rule, can you object?

432

I don't know the, I don't know.

433

Speaker: Yeah, I want, I wanna

take a look at the recent court,

434

because it, right, it was the case.

435

Did it say that the judge erred by

not excluding the FOC after there

436

was an objection or just by not

excluding the FOC and that case?

437

So that's, that's interesting.

438

That's, that's a really good point.

439

Speaker 2: The case is white v Cole,

and it is fascinating too, because

440

it's overturned on other issues,

but then the court goes into like a

441

diatribe saying, Hey y'all, you gotta

be mindful of due process, basically.

442

Also,

443

Speaker: VanGansebe.

444

Speaker 2: Basically, yeah, goes into that

445

Speaker: too.

446

I mean, because I made the objection.

447

FOC stayed in as a published opinion.

448

I don't remember if they had

to get into that because it was

449

overturned on other grounds too.

450

But I think, I think it gets into that.

451

So you've got multiple published

cases, cases that talk about this,

452

Speaker 2: but I think like if you're in a

criminal trial, you don't invoke the rule.

453

I would argue that they waived objecting.

454

Now at the same time, in a real trial,

in the real world with a jury, you're

455

not going to have , you don't want the

witness to have been in there because

456

then the other side's gonna be like, no

wonder Jim said the same thing as Joe.

457

Jim was listening to Joe Testify.

458

Yeah.

459

That's devastating from

a jury's perspective.

460

Like you want the rule invoked

in all criminal proceedings,

461

regardless of if you're on, , the

Commonwealth side or the defense side.

462

Yeah, because you, that's

like, juries don't like that.

463

Like, wait a second.

464

Yeah, of course.

465

You said what he said,

you just heard him say it.

466

It's not rocket science.

467

Again, basic,

468

Speaker: but when you're not dealing

with a jury, you're not dealing with

469

the issues with like a mistrial.

470

Yeah.

471

When you, I mean, I think one of the

reasons, and we talked about in the

472

last podcast, the procedure, you pointed

out that there are more rules that

473

have to be followed in civil cases.

474

Mm-hmm.

475

But the consequences of not following

them are different in criminal cases

476

when you have a jury because not

following something where the, the

477

judge is both the fact finder and the

the has to make the conclusions of law.

478

It's not a mistrial, you're not throwing

the whole thing out the same way as

479

if you've missed one of those rules

and a jury overhears something and you

480

can, someone could, could, request a

mistrial and get it and the whole thing

481

has to be done Again, wasting money,

resources, time, you know, all of that.

482

Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, I just had an idea.

483

We should literally,

this is so random, but

484

do you know what has to happen

in order for Jeopardy to attach?

485

Speaker: Oh, jeopardy.

486

Oh, oh gosh.

487

No.

488

I have probably have to dust off my notes

from studying for the bar since I've

489

never practiced criminal law that way.

490

Speaker 2: I didn't know until

like six months into being a public

491

defender, but it is actually Jeopardy

attaches when the jury's sworn in.

492

Their oath to swear in.

493

And I actually had a case.

494

Oh, so even if you could have,

that's when Jeopardy attaches.

495

I had a case one time,

assault 4th jury trial.

496

We, , swore in the jury did voir dire.

497

It was an assault case.

498

The victim showed up in the middle

of voir dire banging on the door.

499

Shit faced drunk, got arrested.

500

My guy got, they obviously.

501

Jury.

502

I mean, jeopardy is attached and the case

dismissed it 'cause he couldn't testify.

503

It was hysterical, but I digress.

504

Oh my gosh.

505

But anyway, so I was so nervous too.

506

My guy swore he didn't do it and

this guy showed up shit faced.

507

, But, , oh my God.

508

Yeah, you'll

509

Speaker: take that.

510

Take that any day.

511

Speaker 2: I just had a random thought.

512

We always have like business ideas,

but seriously we should do like

513

flashcards or like a game where

we do like, , legal knowledge.

514

And like do it for mock trial or do it

for lawyers or like make a game out of it.

515

We've talked about that

from the beginning.

516

Yeah, that'd be fine.

517

I digress.

518

We'll talk about something else.

519

Yeah.

520

, But anyway, so FOC stayed in the room.

521

I don't think that this

person should have done that.

522

, It was an interpreter case, which

is particularly painful just

523

because the flow never gets right.

524

Yeah.

525

It's not anybody's fault

or anything like that.

526

It's

527

Speaker: tough.

528

Yeah, it's tough.

529

But

530

Speaker 2: the flow was very off

and I thought it was a slam dunk.

531

Case.

532

I don't know what the ruling

is gonna be, but I digress.

533

But Denise, get to work on time.

534

Separate witnesses.

535

Speaker: Yeah,

536

Speaker 2: no, get to work on time.

537

Oh, I'll give you, I don't

even know what I'll do.

538

I'll probably, I, I gotta think, but

I'll do something very nice for you

539

if you get to work on time, five days

in a row, you know, whether it's an

540

FOC or GAL and you separate witnesses.

541

I mean, I'm talking gourmet.

542

Okay.

543

I'm talking like high

level makeup products.

544

I'm just more than 29.99

545

per product.

546

Speaker: I, I will tell you that that

separation of witnesses with FOCs was a

547

problem in every single division that I

can remember trying a case in front of.

548

And it was something that I kicked

and screamed about, and as I got

549

further along in my career, I just.,

550

It was a hill that I would die on.

551

Mm-hmm.

552

Because it's, it's so important.

553

It's so basic.

554

Basic, but.

555

I mean, you would just get

told, I'm not doing it.

556

He can stay in the room.

557

She can stay in the room, move on Mr.

558

Barrow.

559

And it's like everything we do

after this is, is problematic.

560

There's so many problems to this, and

it's not just a problem for this hearing.

561

Like if you were at a criminal

trial, oh, we get a mistrial, or this

562

happens and something gets dismissed.

563

It's the fact that you've

appointed this person who's gonna

564

stay in the case for this long.

565

I've got someone coming in here to testify

about some things that this FOC didn't do

566

or said, and we have the proof and they're

gonna change their story and all by

567

listening and it's gonna affect everything

that happens for the rest of this case.

568

This one, separation of witnesses

issue just has long lasting

569

effects and I would just.

570

Deaf ears all the time.

571

Yeah.

572

Always left in almost every trial I had.

573

We had FOCs left in the courtroom.

574

Speaker 2: I have a dumb question.

575

Did this happen in other

counties or just Louisville?

576

Speaker: Oh, other counties.

577

Speaker 2: Really?

578

Speaker: Oh gosh.

579

Some other counties.

580

So smaller counties are even less

people that are appointed and that

581

you kind of get that they're just less

people practicing generally in family

582

court and in a lot of really small

counties, you get people, most people

583

to make a living have to be general

practitioners and do all kinds of law.

584

Mm-hmm.

585

So you find someone that'll

take those appointments.

586

They almost become like court staff.

587

Yeah.

588

You see those people going in and

out of the back and naturally clients

589

think, oh, they must be working for the

judge 'cause they're just so, so close.

590

But.

591

It just creates this atmosphere where

they sort of have their spot to sit over

592

in the courtroom and they chime in where

they want and they're just always left in.

593

Especially in the counties where you have

motion hour, where someone will bring a

594

motion and then you have a mini hearing.

595

Yeah.

596

Which actually counts as a hearing.

597

And that FOC is always just

kind of sitting there and they

598

say, oh, miss so-and-so, or Mr.

599

So-and-So you on this case,

what do you think about this?

600

And they've listened to all

the testimony, but again.

601

It comes down to the question, is it, is

it an error if no one invokes the rule?

602

Because in those counties.

603

I do it, but , I usually requested

a full hearing on a different date.

604

I didn't like those motion hour hearings.

605

, But, if no one is actually

requesting they be excluded,

606

Speaker 2: I don't know.

607

And I did talk to another

attorney the other day.

608

Oh, I'm gonna find out

609

Speaker: here as soon as

we're finished recording.

610

I'm interested.

611

It's

612

Speaker 2: really fascinating and I do

think we should have like a debate on

613

that and then try to, because I wanna

give some attorneys too, you know, when

614

the law changes, it's like, okay, you

do have to, when we get new published

615

opinions or unpublished opinions.

616

You know, you have to pivot.

617

Like there are things you used to do that

you can't do anymore and blah, blah, blah.

618

Yeah.

619

Um,

620

Speaker: it's your job to

be up to speed on those.

621

Yeah.

622

And some of these cases that

talk about the exclusion of

623

witnesses talk about due process.

624

Mm-hmm.

625

Talk about how fundamental this is.

626

It's, yeah.

627

The, it's, it's not like.

628

Some nuanced gray area, right?

629

This is pretty basic in black and white.

630

Speaker 2: And this attorney said,

if I were an FOC, I would not attend

631

motion hour, and I would stay outside

during a hearing period because I

632

don't wanna get sued for violating,

or I don't wanna have a malpractice,

633

or I don't wanna have anything.

634

And I just think that's what the rules,

and I think you're gonna have real

635

troubles in FOC actually justifying

your bill for coming to motion

636

hour after some of these rulings.

637

I

638

Speaker: mean, and, and the

whole idea that it's not in the

639

civil rules that you have to.

640

Copy.

641

An FOC.

642

They're, if they're not acting

as an attorney in the case, yeah.

643

They, you copying them on all the

pleadings and then billing them.

644

Billing for reading pleadings.

645

Like if you have.

646

Let's say I write a rule 11 that

goes through, , and this is sort of

647

extreme example, but goes through the

conversations from here to here on a

648

discovery issue that has nothing to

do with the kids and I gotta copy the

649

FOC and they're gonna bill for that.

650

It's bullshit.

651

Yeah.

652

And, and, and, and if I don't

copy them on it, someone objects

653

to the judge hearing that motion.

654

'cause I didn't copy the FOC.

655

That happens too.

656

And I'm like.

657

Who cares, number one, they're not a

party, they're a court appointed expert.

658

If the court appointed an accountant,

I would copy the accountant.

659

If they appointed someone to

sell the house, I wouldn't be

660

copying them on pleadings anyway.

661

I've always found it to be weird.

662

It wasn't hard, especially with electronic

service to just, everyone gets it

663

anyway, so I mean it, yeah, whatever, but

664

Speaker 2: still it's just

a waste of people's money.

665

Like you don't need to have an attorney.

666

In my opinion.

667

I think FOCs are completely worthless.

668

In my opinion, in my opinion,, they're,

669

Speaker: they're, , contract judges.

670

Yeah.

671

It's outsourcing.

672

It's outsourcing the work.

673

Mm-hmm.

674

And I can understand the inclination

to do it, and they can certainly

675

spend a whole lot more time than

the judge can finding facts, but.

676

That doesn't mean that it it's proper

and that it's, yeah, I, I have, I have

677

the same problems with it that you do.

678

Speaker 2: Oh, and then

really quick, we'll wrap up.

679

There was a change.

680

I did not know this.

681

, Not all domestic violence cases

are, are public any longer.

682

I did not know that there was a.

683

And I need to research this.

684

I talked with a different attorney

that said, yeah, there's a new Supreme

685

Court rule that is obviously we knew

for domestic violence if kids are

686

involved, they're appointing A GAL.

687

Speaker: Yep.

688

Speaker 2: But now there are

cabinet involvement, so it's

689

automatically confidential.

690

Did you know that?

691

I did not know that.

692

That's practicing.

693

I

694

Speaker: did, but I didn't remember

when, when we talked about it earlier.

695

I had heard that and I, but it

was something, , the, it changed

696

while I was still practicing,

but I don't know that I did much.

697

Domestic violence work.

698

Mm-hmm.

699

Since it changed.

700

Yeah.

701

I think I had one or two hearings

where the GAL provision, you know,

702

came into play, but I honestly wasn't

paying attention to the, to the other

703

part in what I did because I avoided

the hell out of hearings on those

704

things no matter what side I was on.

705

Yeah.

706

'cause you never know what's gonna happen.

707

But yeah, I, I did know that.

708

I just.

709

I had completely forgotten it,

710

Speaker 2: which I think is

somewhat scary to just think about.

711

We've got more secret courtrooms and to

all the cabinet workers following along

712

and encouraging us and coming up to me

in court and getting to work on time.

713

You are the best.

714

I love you, judge y.com.

715

We have a new episode that will be

coming out on Friday where we are

716

going to drink beers and bitch.

717

Speaker: Yep.

718

Speaker 2: Gonna be fun.

719

All right.

720

Thank y'all.

721

Yep.

722

Speaker: See ya.

723

Next call.

724

We need some justice, justice, justice.

725

And I wanna ring bells in public.

726

I wanna ring bes in public nor crowd.

727

Yeah, but I To the fo Yeah.

728

I To the fo Yeah.

729

I to the fo fo teaser.