I was minding my own business, about ten minutes into a podcast I listen to every week, when the host said my name out loud and told his audience to go and listen to my show.

Nobody asked him to. There was no deal, no swap, no "I'll do yours if you do mine."

Which is incredible, given that, on paper, the man is my competition.

This episode is about the one group of listeners the ideal listener exercise specifically tells you to ignore — and why they're the only people in your audience who arrive with an audience of their own.

There's a bit in here I don't soften, and it's aimed squarely at me as much as at you.

In this episode:

— The three approved British responses to being complimented in public

— Why a man with 1,000 episodes and a Hall of Fame induction owes you nothing, and said it anyway

— The Saturday morning cheese market, and why Trevor sends people to Maureen

— Same counter, different cheese: the reason "but they might not come back" is the wrong worry

— Bev, the Martins, and two allotment podcasts that have never spoken

— Why the promo swap is a hostage exchange, and what to do instead

— The column that isn't on anybody's connection spreadsheet

Mentioned in this episode

Dave Jackson — Attention vs. Connection, School of Podcasting (14 September 2026): https://www.schoolofpodcasting.com/connection-attention

School of Podcasting: https://www.schoolofpodcasting.com

Ask the Podcast Coach — Dave Jackson and Jim Collison, Saturday mornings: https://www.askthepodcastcoach.com

Podnews Weekly Review — James Cridland and Sam Sethi, every Friday: https://weekly.podnews.net

In & Around Podcasting — Rob Walch and Elsie Escobar (the "Rob and Elsie" I apologise to about seven minutes in): https://podnews.net/podcast/ic1o5

Building The Brand with James Burtt — two Ts, which I did not manage on air: https://podnews.net/podcast/i11l3c

David Hooper's Big Podcast: https://www.bigpodcast.com

Mark at Podcast Branding: https://podcastbranding.co

Switchy — Dave Jackson's affiliate link, not ours: https://www.supportthisshow.com/switchy

That's Dave's affiliate link, not mine. If you buy through it he gets the commission, which is entirely the point — it's the fastest thank-you I could think of. I've had it about five minutes, so treat this as a thing I bought, not a thing I'm recommending.

Want in on the Podmastery Community? The waiting list is open — come and be in a room with other indie podcasters being genuinely useful to each other: podmastery.co/podcasting-community

Stuck on something specific? Come and get your next podcasting challenge solved one-to-one with me at podmastery.co

Podmastery: Podcasting Insights is my podcast for people who've actually had a go at this and are a bit sick of being told they're doing it wrong by people who've never properly done it at all. I'm Neal Veglio, THE Podmaster. LOLZ

I was listening to one of my regular podcasts the other day, minding

my own business, and about 10 minutes in, the host said my name.

Not in a "this man owes me money" kind of way.

He told his audience to go and listen to my show.

And get this, he called me a great guy.

Nobody asked him to.

There was no deal in place, no swap, none of that I'll do yours

if you do mine kind of stuff.

He just said it out loud to his people, and I was chuffed.

I mean, properly chuffed.

The sort of chuffed you have to go and give the dogs a walk to try and process,

which is an odd way to feel about a man who on paper is my competition.

Welcome along to Podmastery: Podcasting Insights, the podcast for indie

creators that helps you get more from your podcasting efforts on your

journey towards attaining podmastery.

I'm Neal Veglio, the Podmaster, and we'll probably be coming back to that.

This episode, the one group of listeners you've been told to ignore.

You have to understand, I'm British.

Criticism we can handle.

We got the infrastructure for that.

But somebody being nice about you unprompted in public,

we're not really equipped.

We get awkward.

For about a second, I assumed that when this guy talked about me, he

meant a different Neal, a better one.

I mean, there's bound to be a better podcaster named Neal, but he

meant me, and there are only three approved British responses to that.

One, pretend you didn't hear it, which I think a lot of podcast gurus do.

Two, say, "Oh, give over," to an empty room.

And three, go very quiet and put the kettle on while you

process what just happened.

None of those is say thank you, which was a problem because I was

properly grateful, and I had nowhere to put that. Hold that thought.

Because I did.

I found somewhere to put it. Let me tell you a bit more about this host.

The host was Dave Jackson from the School of Podcasting, a guy who I

have an immense amount of respect for.

He's been podcasting for 20-odd years.

He's got more than 1,000 episodes.

He's in the Podcasting Hall of Fame.

Yes, podcasting has one.

There's a ceremony and presumably some kind of finger buffet.

I've never been invited to the hall or the buffet, and I'd like it on

record that I am considerably more upset about the buffet part of that.

The episode that Dave put out last week was called Attention Versus

Connection, and it all opens with a really clever cold open about Dave

hitting a complete stranger with a golf ball and then later a duck.

Separate incidents, and that's a metaphor for growing a podcast, and it works.

His point was we've become brilliant at measuring attention, so through downloads,

clicks, all that vanity stuff, but we've forgotten how to measure connection.

You don't need 10,000 strangers.

You need a few hundred of the right people who trust you.

Does that sound familiar?

Well, it should do.

I agree with every word, and not only that, but I've even used those words on

both of my podcasts from time to time. It's slightly annoying, actually, because

this would be a much better episode if he was wrong and I came at him, right?

Drama.

We all love drama, but I can't.

And in the middle of it, as an example of somebody who got known by turning

up rather than shouting, he talks about me by name at length and even

read out my tagline on his show.

He got as far as Podmaster and stopped and went back and said, "No, sorry,

Not just Podmaster, the Podmaster."

Now I chose that title, and yes, I was sober, and it was during the day,

and I've been fine with it for years.

We gotta own our expertise, right?

But you hear it read out by a genuinely lovely American man who is so respected

and admired in the industry, to the point that on his own show he plays clips

of Adam Curry, the Podfather, talking about him with nothing but respect.

And you hear him reading that out slowly and carefully, like he's reading

the name off a parcel that's come to the wrong house and he wants to make

sure it gets to the right person.

And then suddenly, that name, The Podmaster, doesn't sound like

a podcast consultant anymore.

It sounds like a wrestler.

I mean, I wouldn't make a great wrestler.

I'd be third on the bill, probably appearing at a leisure centre in Swindon.

I'd be coming out to the theme from Grandstand.

I will say he spelt my name wrong in the show notes, Neil with an I.

There are two kinds of Neal, and I'm the one that looks like a typo.

I've spent my entire life saying with an A to everyone from call

centres to potential Patreon members.

And I wanna be clear, I do not care about that.

A man with 1,000 episodes was kind about me without being asked.

He can call me Susan if he likes, and I will absolutely respond to that.

So look, I know what this probably sounds like.

Man says nice thing about me, I make episode about man being nice, and

by Christmas it's two middle-aged blokes on different continents

going, "No, you're the insightful one," until somebody's family stages

an intervention and potentially builds a brick wall to separate us.

It isn't that.

I traced back how this happened, and I found something I think that you may

well be getting wrong, and I know I was.

So let's go through this.

One, I listen to Podnews Weekly Review, James Cridland and Sam

Sethi, the week's podcasting news.

It's kind of the industry bible for anybody working in and around podcasting.

Sorry, that's a different show.

Sorry, Rob and Elsie, love your show too.

We'll talk about that at another point, and that's kind

of the point of this episode.

But anyway, back on point.

At some point, I started sending voice notes.

I'd love to tell you that was a strategy.

It would make me sound really smart.

I'd love to tell you it was pure.

It would make me sound nice.

It was both at different times.

It started as one of those and turned into the other, and I wouldn't even be

able to tell you which episode it flipped.

What I can tell you is that they've never once read out a comment

because it'd be good for Neal.

They read it out if it's good for the show.

That's the only possible outcome of that.

Two.

Dave Jackson also listens to that show, and here he is referring to this

guesting on other podcasts can help.

Why?

Because there's less friction, because that audience already knows what a

podcast is, they know how to listen, and in theory, you're going on somebody's

show that shares an audience with you.

And so it could be as simple as saying, "Hey, you should check out Big Podcast

Bla- Playbook with my buddy David Hooper.

Go check out Podmastery with, uh, Neal Veglio.

Um, he's a great guy.

I've reached out to him.

We might do something in the future." It could be as simple as a shout-out.

It could be a 30-second promo swap.

There's all sorts of ways to do it.

So that's a man with a podcast about podcasting sat in the audience of

another podcast about podcasting hearing a comment from a third bloke,

me, with a podcast about podcasting.

Doesn't sound like an industry, does it?

That sounds more like a support group.

Three, he mentions me on his podcast.

No ask.

Four, I listen to his show, which is how I heard it.

When I say I listen to his show, didn't just randomly listen to his show.

I listen to his show every single week.

I have been a fan of that show since, well, as far back as I can remember.

He was one of the first podcast experts I began listening to for insights

into the industry of podcasting.

Here's 4.5.

In his episode, he mentions a link tracking tool that he uses.

It's called Switchy, and I'll put his affiliate link to that in my notes.

I'm gonna pass on any affiliate coin he makes.

Now, a normal person feeling grateful sends a nice email, "Thanks, Dave.

That meant a lot." I bought the bloody software he's hawking through his link

on purpose because that's how I express affection apparently, via checkouts

Now I've had it about five minutes, so it's not a recommendation.

I just couldn't think of a faster way to say cheers to someone that

didn't involve having to wait three weeks for, um, email back and forth.

I just wanted to do it.

Now point five.

This episode.

Look who's in that chain.

James Cridland, Sam Sethi, Dave Jackson, me, and now you.

And I could name three or four other people I know within the industry that

listen to this show because they have told me at The Podcast Show in London.

Now, on paper, we all sell the same thing to the same people, and each of

us is exactly the listener the ideal listener exercise tells you to ignore.

You've done that exercise.

I've set that exercise for you in a previous episode.

You invent your perfect listener, and you give them a name. Sometimes

it's a she, sometimes it's a he.

Probably Claire.

34, she values authenticity, and she's got a cockapoo.

Nobody's ever drawn a picture of the bloke on the next stall, the

other podcaster who is vending their wares to exactly the same audience.

I mean, let's do this.

This is a useful exercise.

Picture, if you will, a proper traditional Saturday morning market.

If you are listening to this in the US, what this basically looks like

is a top- is a tarpaulin-covered car park with a bunch of cheese makers all

setting out their cheeses on tables, and they're all about four feet apart.

You'd assume they all hate each other because they're all selling the same stuff

But if you stand there and watch, it's quite interesting.

Claire walks up and asks for a smoked Wensleydale.

Well, Trevor, who's selling the cheeses, hasn't got one in stock,

and he doesn't say, "..." He says,

Now, nobody asked him to, and Maureen's not paying him.

But a market where people find what they came for is a market people come back

to, and that's exactly what Dave did.

He had a queue in front of him, and he pointed down the row and

said, "Try Neal, the Podmaster.

The Podmaster.

He's three stalls down.

I think you'll like what he's got to offer."

Now, he probably would've spelled it wrong on his chalkboard in front of

his table, but he said it, and that's the most important thing. And by the

worksheets that I've talked about in the past on both this show and the other

show, I'm a wasted listener for him.

I've got my own stall.

I'm never gonna be his Claire. And yet I'm the one who listened right through

to the end of his episode, heard me being mentioned twice, then bought the

software that he was hawking, which on the face of it looks bloody brilliant, and

then I made an entire episode about it.

Your peers are the only people in your audience who have their own audience.

Claire can tell a friend, which is lovely.

The bloke on the next stall can tell the queue, a queue full of

Claires hearing about you from somebody they already buy from.

And I can hear what your competitive, slightly fearmongered

brain is saying to me right now.

"But Neal, if I send Claire three stalls down, she might not come back."

Well, she will or she won't, and she was never yours because it's the same counter.

It is not the same cheese.

This is Dave again on what he found when he came and had a listen.

And so, Neal Veglio from Podmastery, uh, the full, uh, tagline Podcasting Insights

and Advice for the Indie Creators.

I heard Neal on Podnews Weekly Review, and I was like, "That's a

good point." And then next week it was almost like, "And now it's time

for Neal." He was consistently leaving just insights and comments to where

I was like, "Who is this Neal guy?"

And I kind of bumped into him.

I, you know, I'd see his artwork and stuff, and I went over and listened,

and I was like, "You know what?

I like this guy 'cause he's kinda like me, a little snarky, a—

A little snarky.

He's being kind.

It's most of my personality.

But he's right.

The same counter.

We're tired of exactly the same people.

He even mentions it in the episode, the seven-figure lot who've never

once told you what they took home.

Dave says it with more of a smile.

I say it with a bit of a bitchy attitude.

Now let's talk about the cheese.

Dave's got drops, little sound effects, a voice that goes yeah,

yeah, yeah between segments.

Sorry, Dave.

I know those drops.

I was those drops.

I spent years on morning radio pressing a button that went boing.

I even had another one that sounded like a mattress spring going up and down when

I was talking about something a little bit fruity. The audience in front of me

got younger, and overnight it went from funny to your dad doing the Macarena.

So I put the button down and I walked the other way.

I went for soundscapes, less Zoo Radio, more Pink Floyd, which I accept is

its own kind of insufferable if you're not of a certain age demographic.

Dave kept the button, and his listeners love him for it.

You can absolutely hear it in the messages they send him, and he's warm.

Your podcast isn't growing, Dave puts an arm around you and says,

"You're closer than you think." I say, "It's your intro, mate.

It's two minutes too long, and it's got your blooming cat

meowing in the background." It's the same diagnosis, by the way.

Dave would tell you about the intro as well.

He'd probably just make you a nice cup of Joe first, and it would probably be

sponsored by Mark at podcastbranding.co

If you wanna get that inside joke, go listen to him and Jim Collison doing

their other show, Ask the Podcast Coach, on Saturday mornings. Neither approach is

wrong, but nobody's torn between the two.

I know the people at my stall, they didn't come for a cup of Joe.

They came to be told about that damn cat.

The ones who want Dave's stall were never gonna be happy at mine.

They want a cuddle.

They want someone they can like.

And the ones he sends me who stay, they were probably mine all along.

They just didn't know about my stall.

And maybe to them, they like tough love, so they never wanted the cuddle from Dave,

and that's why he was never a competitor.

And you don't have to take my word for it.

This is him on his show to his queue.

You'll notice he sounds slightly de- I mean, he always sounds delighted.

That's just what his voice does.

I've checked mine.

It hasn't got that setting.

And he meant it.

We've talked since, and we're gonna be making something together.

I'm even very seriously considering starting something brand new just for

the Podmastery Community featuring Dave.

He'll bring the cup of Joe, and I'll bring the cat.

It's kinda like a buddy cop film where you got one who's the

grumpy guy with a moustache and the other who's the adorable fun guy.

I'd probably be Burt Reynolds and he would be John Candy.

And I'm gonna say I love the idea that there might be a time when Dave

Jackson, Hall of Famer, OG podcasting consultant, will be a part of the

Podmastery Community, my community.

A man with a thousand episodes and an award.

He doesn't need it.

That's like a bloke with a Michelin star wandering up to me in my burger van and

asking if I want a hand on Saturdays.

Subconsciously, I'd probably filed him under the wrong column in a

spreadsheet, and so have you with somebody.

Let's step out of podcasting for a second because many people

don't actually live there.

Say you're Bev and you do a podcast about allotments.

40 minutes a week on rhubarb from your spare room in Kettering.

There's a bigger allotment podcast, and that's two blokes in Shropshire,

both called Martin, because of course they are, and Bev has got them filed

under competitor, maybe even enemy if she operates from a fear space.

Now, she listens to every episode in secret, like her

earbuds are having an affair

If anybody ever catches her listening, she switches over to Gardeners'

Question Time, and the Martins crucially listen to hers in the shed separately,

and they've never discussed it.

Now, the day those two say in an RSS feed, "There's a woman in

Kettering who knows more about your clubroot than the pair of us,"

That's more Claires reached in one sentence than three years of Instagram

reels of Bev pointing at a courgette.

And here's where we all make a bit of a pig's ear of this.

When we do finally approach a peer, we open with the scorecard.

You've had that message.

"Hey Neal, love the show." Never heard the show.

"I think there's a real synergy between our audiences." There isn't really.

"Fancy a promo swap? Rocket emoji." Nobody who's ever meant

anything has used the rocket emoji.

That's not a relationship build, that's a hostage exchange.

Two people on a bridge, the golden hour, each holding a 30-second

trailer going, "You first, punk."

"No, you first."

Look at that chain again.

Nobody asked anybody for anything.

Nobody invoiced anybody.

That's not a coincidence.

that's the mechanism at work.

The second it's a trade, your audience can smell it a mile off.

It only carries weight because nobody had to do it.

So here's an uncomfortable question.

When did you last say something good about another show in your

niche, on your own show, by name, without being asked first and without

them knowing that it was coming?

Yeah, same.

And it took a man in America doing it for me before I noticed I actually wasn't

doing it for anyone that often either.

So Dave, if you're listening, and I've got a very strong feeling you probably will

be, even though I've not told you about this episode, I'm gonna do this properly,

and I need you to understand it's physically difficult for someone like me.

Thank you.

It was generous.

You didn't have to, and it really, really made my week.

Nay, month.

Nay, year.

There, that's my entire emotional budget gone until March next year.

And one thing for you, dear Podmastery listener. You wondered out

loud how you'd measure connection when I first mentioned it, right?

A spreadsheet, emails you've never asked for, shout-outs.

Add a column, the next door.

People who'll never pay you a single penny but will point their whole queue

of potential customers in your direction.

I don't think that column's on anybody's spreadsheet.

It might be the most valuable one on there.

And I can tell you this doesn't just apply at Podmastery level.

On my other show, B2B Podcasting Insights, I hear all the time from B2B brands

who are using podcasting for their marketing, and I get chatting with them

and I have conversations with them.

Sometimes I even consult with them.

And do you know what one of the first things that they bring up is?

How much better their main competitor's podcast is and how

they see that as a negative thing.

And the idea of collaboration, nobody's even thought about it. Thanks again, Dave.

Oh, and the next Hall of Fame do, save me a vol-au-vent, will you?

Right.

Speaking to people with podcasts, listening to other people with podcasts,

I've got a whole room of those.

And after this very short break, I'd love to play you a podcast from one

of our Podmastery community members.

The doors are now open on the wait list, so if you'd like to join us, head

to podmastery.co/podcasting-community.

You might even see Dave in there.

There you go.

Go and listen to the whole thing, not just that clip.

Right.

One more thing for you to go and do before I'm done with you for this week.

In your next episode, send your listeners three stalls down.

Recommend one show in your own niche.

Again, same counter, different cheese.

Name them with one specific reason.

Don't go, "Oh, they're great..."

Mention something that they did that you wish you'd done first.

Give them credit.

Offer praise.

Don't ask them first, and don't set up a swap.

Don't tag them 17 times and sit refreshing your notifications

like a dog at a letterbox.

Drop them a line afterwards if you like.

You know, mentioned you this week.

No need for you to do anything.

Don't need any thanks, and then leave it alone.

No just bumping this.

It's a gift, not a summons.

You know, I realised listening back and thinking back, you know, I

realised thinking back as I was going through my playlist just yesterday

while I was in the gym, a show called Building the Brand came up.

It's hosted by a chap called James Burtt, and he featured somebody on his podcast

named Rob Moore, who I really didn't like.

He's one of those LinkedIn icky people.

But I listened to James chatting to him, and I did a LinkedIn post about

how much I enjoyed listening to his conversation with Rob Moore and how

actually it left me feeling in a slightly different way about Rob Moore.

I got a WhatsApp message from James Burtt that same day saying,

"Mate, thanks so much for that," and it meant something to him.

I didn't do it because I wanted him to send me a WhatsApp message.

I did it because, like Dave with mine, I heard his show, or rather I

saw his show pop up in the playlist and was intrigued about what Rob

Moore would sound like, and I was pleasantly surprised, and so I listened.

Start today.

Open your podcast app and look down the row of shows.

The show in your niche you actually listen to, the one you filed under

competition, write down the last thing they did that made you think, "Damn..."

That's your script for your next episode.

Will it grow your show this week?

No.

Dave doesn't owe me anything, and whoever you mention won't owe you anything.

But somewhere out there, one of the only people in your audience with an

audience finds out you're not the enemy.

And I'm gonna eat my own dog food on this.

I'm gonna proactively look for shows that I can mention.

I'm not gonna take the cheat code here and go for Podnews Weekly Review, James

Cridland and Sam Smith, James Cridland and Sam Sethi every Friday, because we

all know that I listen to that show.

I contribute to that show.

I'm gonna dig deeper, and I'm gonna find a show from a genuine on-paper

competitor, and when I hear them make a really good point, I'm gonna

mention them, and I'm gonna send you to have a listen to their show.

Nobody has asked me to do that.

Nobody knows I'm gonna do it.

And that's kind of the point.

Now Dave's episode, Dave's links, and Podnews Weekly Review are all

in the show episode description.

Go and hear about that duck.

If you'd one day like to be in a room with other indie podcasters being really

useful to each other, that's all at podmastery.co/podcasting-community.

And if you'd rather have a conversation about your specific show, podmastery.co.

Or if I'm not really your cup of tea, but you like listening to

the show anyway, maybe give Dave Jackson a go, schoolofpodcasting.com.

I'm Neal Veglio with an A, the Podmaster with a "the".

I'm so sorry, Dave.

Thanks for listening, and until the next episode, good luck with your continuing

journey towards attaining podmastery.