This week's interview is with Rakesh Satyal, senior editor at Atria Books and author of the award-winning book Blue Boy and No One Can Pronounce My Name. Since 2001, Rakesh has been an all-in editor while still making time to write and promote his own books. We talk about how he balances his work at Atria, supporting some of our favorite authors, with producing his own creative work. PLUS Corinne gets to ask about working with Tori Amos (whose new book, Resistance, is coming out in May 2020!).

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You welcome to the hybrid pub Scout podcast

with me, Emily Einolander and me. Karin kolasky, hello. We are

mapping the frontier between traditional and indie

publishing, and today, we are honored to have Rakesh satyal.

Rakesh satyal is the author of the novel Blue Boy, which won

the 2010 Lambda Literary Award for gay debut fiction and the

2010 prose poetry award from the Association of Asian American

Studies. Satyal was a recipient of a 2010 fellowship in fiction

from the New York Foundation for the Arts and two fellowships

from the Norman Mailer writers colony. His writing has appeared

in New York Magazine, Vulture OUT magazine and the all a

graduate of Princeton University, he has taught in the

publishing program at New York University and has been on the

Advisory Committee for the annual pen world voices

Festival. He lives in Brooklyn. Welcome, hello. Thank you for

having me so, so first, let's, let's start with the question

that's on everybody's mind, how are you, how are you doing your

life right now? How are you conducting?

Yeah, I mean, it's pretty crazy. I mean, I have not

left the apartment in nine days now. It's pretty crazy, you

know, I kind of, you know, one of the things about working in

publishing is there's no dearth of good things to read. So I

actually had two revisions that authors just turned in that I

really enjoyed reading through, because I had time to do that,

and I just edited another novel, and I read a good book. And so,

I mean, you know, I'm making do. It's pretty eerie. And you know,

we were conducting all of our meetings on Zoom and on

Microsoft Teams, and it's, you know, things are proceeding

apace, but it's a pretty crazy time.

Would you say that you as an editor are

getting more done right now? Or no?

Well, that would mean that I'm not usually getting

things done. But I mean, it is funny, because, you know, agents

have asked, you know, are people reviewing submissions as much or

which? And I'm like, you know, if you have a big, long novel,

now's the time to submit it, I guess, because people are

sitting around reading. But you know, I think we, we love books,

and a lot of the job is part of that. But there are, there are

logistical things that are difficult, just because putting

a book into production or getting books shipped and stuff

like that. But I think we've actually been quite agile there,

and I think it's been relatively smooth, so famous last words, I

guess, but I think it's

so so, so shipments and are going out and

coming in from from overseas, or, like, is that still

happening? Or is it all on hold for a little while?

It's funny. I don't know the exact logistics about

international shipping, but again, I mean, we you know books

are being published and books are shipping, and you know, the

retailers are reassessing as necessary. But you know, I mean,

I should note that, you know, atria in particular had a big

best seller this week for Beth Searle, new book in five years.

And that was a really amazing group effort make that book a

success. So I think, you know, so I got speaks to and if I had

it correctly, I believe the sales were off week too. So

like, you know, like, I think people are reading, and you

know, we're trying to make books available to people, because who

doesn't want to be reading right now?

I know I do. All right, so what got you into

working as a book editor, and can you just give us a little

bit of a rundown of how you got to where you are in your career?

Yeah, I so I was in the creative writing program as an

undergrad at Princeton, and this is such a name dropping thing to

say, but the first person who actually made me aware that

publishing would be a legitimate profession that would kind of

match my academic interests. Was Joyce Carol Oates, because I had

a class with her my sophomore year in college, and she just

kind of pulled me aside at the end of class one day and said,

you know, you you give good feedback on people's work. Have

you ever thought about working in book publishing? So I, you

know, like many people, I didn't know anything about book

publishing. I didn't know, you know, that it was a career that

I could look into upon, you know, leaving college. So I

actually interned for a legendary editor, Jerry Howard,

at what was then the double a Broadway Publishing Group. So I

interned there before my senior year of college, and then I

started working for him the Monday of high ground.

Graduated. So it was very, very, that's incredible. It was very

fast, yeah, and he was amazing mentor. And, you know, it just a

lot of it is on site experience. I mean, yes, you have to, you

know, what I say to people who interview for publishing jobs

is, I think one of the reasons why I ended up getting my first

jobs in publishing this because I didn't pretend to know what

the job was, I just said, you know, I think I have strong

communication skills. I think I'm a strong writer. I love to

read. I love books. You know, I'm organized. I think these are

skills that would serve me well in this job. I didn't say, Oh, I

know exactly how this works, and I'll be perfect on day one. So I

think, you know, I just bring that enthusiasm, and just

knowing it was going to be a fair bit of hard work was very

important. So important. So, so, yeah, I worked there. That was

my first job. Then I worked at Doubleday Broadway for four and

a half years, and then Harper Collins for four and a half

years. And then I actually had a three year detour where I worked

in branding, both in the Bay Area and back here in New York.

And then about five years ago, came back into book publishing.

So it's, you know, it's been a long tail, but it's, uh, you

know, it's, it kind of followed very logically from beginning

that first job and working hard, basically. So how

do you balance your writing career with your

editing career? And how do you sort of switch between those two

mindsets?

You know, it's, it is difficult. I mean, I'm not going

to lie, because it is the same, it's just two different sides of

the same coin, obviously. So it's, you know, I, I'm kind of a

hypocrite to my authors, because I'm always telling them, you

know, set a schedule and be very regimented and be, you know,

write every day and, you know, have a roadmap. And I don't do

any of that with I just, you know, it's, it's, I think what's

important for people to realize is that different people work in

different ways, and figure out what your work ethic is doesn't

mean it's going to resemble everybody else's. But the way

I've traditionally worked is I set aside time, especially on

the weekends, to write, and usually I will find a period of

time, you know, if it's a residency, if it's a fellowship,

if it's something to that effect, where I can just sit and

generate work, where I can, you know, treat it like a work day,

where I get up in the morning, I write till lunchtime, I take a

lunch break, I write the entire afternoon, and I just am

generating creative work that I can then go back and revise and

shape into the larger scope of the project. So I found that

relatively effective. And when I was writing my first book, I

kind of tell people, I went to this now defunct coffee shop on

the Upper East Side that was actually the model for Central

Perk on friends. And they had chairs everywhere. And, you

know, I had my heavy, heavy Dell laptop, and I would take it and

I would write, you know, every Saturday and Sunday, and that

was how I really got that manuscript off the ground. And

then I took a trip to San Francisco to house for a friend,

and just finished it, you know, finished a big, long draft that

was messy and needed work, but it just, you know, kind of

pushed me to to do it. And with my last book, I mean, the same

thing, I've been working on it on and off, and then I just kind

of came just kind of came to the realization that a lot of us

come to which is, oh, if I don't do this, like, sit down and do

it, it's not going to get done. Like, it's not anybody else's

responsibility. I have to do it. So, you know that having that

switch kind of flick and go, Okay, I need to really batten

down the hatches. So I, you know, I same thing. I have set

for friend here in New York. It just used the apartment as kind

of a workspace and work. So, you know, it's tough editing work.

You know, I most editors will tell you they don't edit at

work. You know, we do a lot of that work outside of the nine to

five. But, you know, I take that very seriously. I do think in

the editing I'm a bit more regimented where, like, you

know, I'll edit something, and I'll set aside time every day to

address that that project, and to really sit down and sit with

it. So it's two different ways of working. But it is, again,

important to kind of figure out what type of person you are and

what type of work ethic you want to create,

so you don't find yourself Self Editing as

much when you're working through a draft of your own work,

you know? I try not to. That's a very good question. I

try not to. I think we're all we all fall prey to that more than

we'd like to admit. But yes, I do, you know, you do have to

push forward. I think that you know you're always going to be a

stronger writer the second after what you just wrote gets on the

page like you're just you're always honing it, you're always

getting stronger. So there will always be a rationale for why

you feel like you have to go back and crack that. But that is

the important thing is, I think a really key thing to learn is

what a first draft is and what revision looks like. Because

getting to a first draft stage is really vital, and oh, you're

the only person who has to see that draft, you know, like,

like, you don't have to show it to anybody if you don't want to.

But if you don't actually get to that end point, just kind of

figure out what you got, so to speak, then you're never going

to get to the next stage of refinement. So, yeah, it's

important to know that difference.

It's, it's easier. I think we have. Someone

in an earlier episode say something like, it's you can you

can edit bad words, but you can't edit no words.

Oh, that's great. Yeah, that's totally That's exactly

it, yep, yeah.

So as someone who works in publishing as you

do, what has been your approach to actually getting your own

books published? And kind of, at what point did that happen for

you?

I wrote, I wrote my first book, Blue Boy, between

2003 and 2007 ish. And I, you know, it's, it is a, I wish I

could tell you that it's just the easiest publishing process.

But you know, when you're sort of a double minority, so to

speak. So like, you know it is, you know, some of those things

are true about, like, what you know, reactions you get from

people, who are they think it's less rather than more because

it's, you know, pigeonholed, or, you know, people can be

dismissive. So I you know, the good thing is, you know,

Kensington, who published my first book, really did a

wonderful job of publishing it, and really believed in it, and

it still sells, and it still finds its audience. And that

was, you know, they they published it in the right

format. They were wonderful to work with. And then, you know,

Picador, who did my second book, I mean, I worked with just an

absolutely spectacular editor, Anna DeVries, who is just, was a

joy to work with, and and she really got the book. And I think

that's the thing, is that sometimes you just have to if

somebody really understands your work deeply on the editorial

level and really understands the vision you have for it, that's

really the most important thing. And I think they took such care

with the way in which they she took such care of the way in

which she edited it. And I learned so much as an editor

being edited by her. But they also were just very thoughtful

about the ways in which they, they went about publishing that

book. So, you know, it's, it's, I try not to take those

considerations into mine more than I need to, because I would

just like to focus on my work. And the truth is, I think, you

know, I have a pretty realistic idea of the way in which

publishing works, and I since I know certain things about it and

just the way in which the industry works, I don't really

try to concern myself with that, because it just isn't relevant

to the work. I mean, it's relevant in the sense that, like

I do, try to write books that subvert an expected narrative.

So like that, I take into account, like my last book, no

one pronounce my name. It's very meta, like consciously meta

about the publishing industry in the latter half of it, and it's

very much about who gets represented as writers, what you

know, what a writing community looks like, who finds purchase

within it, like all that stuff that I took very meaningfully as

I was constructing it, because I was writing from a place of

experience, but in terms of, like, the logistics of the

publishing or some of that stuff, I try not to, you know, I

try to lead with the creative end of things, as opposed to the

commercial end

of it sounds like you do a pretty good job of

separating those two parts of your life.

Yeah, I think, you know, I writing should be fun. I

think, you know, I think like it is difficult work, but it should

be enjoyable. And I think, you know, that's my chance, you

know, after, you know, on the weekends, when I'm, you know,

not working at my nine to five job, which I enjoyed a great

deal, obviously, but you know, just being like, Okay, this is

mine, like, this is, this is the time I have for myself, and

here's the time I set aside to do something creatively. That

means something to me, and that's invaluable.

I had a question that sort of segues

from the last one a little bit, because you sort of worked in

the industry. Did you feel like your expectations as an author

were kind of a little more tempered and realistic that a

lot of sort of authors who were just coming into it obviously

not having worked in the industry?

Yeah, I think, yeah. I think so. I mean, I think I have

a pretty you know, if a book takes off and it's successful,

that's wonderful, and it's due to the hard work of a lot of

people who love books. But, you know, it's not a given. And so

you're absolutely right. I mean, I think I have pretty real I

mean, I assume my editor and publicist and other publishing

people would say as much, but I think was pretty easy going.

Yeah, I would think so. Yeah, absolutely. I

mean, if you kind of know how the sausage gets made, you know,

I feel like you're kind of like, okay, I know how this works.

Like, you know, you're coming from a place of having had that

experience. I was just curious, and that's what I figured. So

thank you. I'm a

little curious about your detour into branding.

Like, how did that come about, and why did you end up wanting

to come back to publishing afterward?

It's a funny story. Actually. I, you know, like many

people in publishing, I kind of, you know, I was kind of mid

career, and I thought, you know, should I look into doing

something else? I mean, I think I'm a creative person like, you

know, maybe I should look into another industry and see how it

is. And I actually was also very, you know, kind of

attracted to the idea of living in San Francisco, because I, you

know, really love San Francisco, and I had a couple good friends

who lived there. And every time I visited it, I always felt like

a sense of communion with that place. So I there was an article

in The New Yorker in the fall of. Of 2011 written by John Cole

Pinto that was about a boutique naming firm that was the first

of its kind. So it's kind of the gold standard of naming firms.

So they named any number of very well known products and

companies. And I just kind of cold emailed the CEO and said,

This is my background. This is, you know, here's my resume. And

you know, he said, we're inundated with resumes, but I

really like yours. If you're in town, look me up. And I did the

following February. And it's funny, I'm more or less, got

hired on the spot, and I had two weeks to move to San Francisco

after 10 years of living in New York. Oh, my God. It was very

quick. And, you know, I just thought, you know, I it was

really a sea change for me, because I went out there and I

liked the work. It was very creative work. It's difficult

work. You know, we met with every major client and startup

you can imagine. This was 2012 it was a very Bay Area, time to

be there. And lo and behold, I mean ironically, that July, I

met my now husband, who, ironically, was working in book

publishing. And I was not, and we, you know, so I basically,

you know, I was there for almost two years, and then I came back

to New York and worked for a branding firm here in the city.

And, you know, I again, I it was very creative work. I liked it a

lot. It was very cool and but I really realized, so I really was

working with authors I love, you know, I was working on my second

book at that time, I was really in the weeds of it and kind of

figuring it out. And I thought, you know, I really do enjoy

especially since I was back in New York. I was like, you know,

I run into people all the time, and I'd run into authors, I'd

run into agents, I'd run into former colleagues. And I just

thought, you know, I have this marketing branding experience

now that will serve me well if I apply it to my publishing job.

And at that time, the publisher of atria, who founded the

imprint, Judith Kerr who's real visionary. I mean, she came from

a marketing background as well, and she has a very, very keen

eye for packaging and promotion and positioning. And so, you

know, was a good fit, because I felt like she appreciated the

fact that I'd been in a different industry and was

coming into publishing with that expertise. So, you know, it was,

it was, it was a step by step kind of process, but that was a

very, very helpful education I got in that industry, and it has

served me well being back in publishing.

Now, can you, can you give an example, maybe,

of a way that it's helped out with with your publishing

career.

I think, you know, one of the things I was very

conscious of when I came back, because I was seeing it through

that lens, was just like branding an imprint like, like,

I mean, I think most people understand this, but probably

the imprint that's that solved that puzzle, maybe the most

effectively is Riverhead. Like, they've just, they have such a

brilliant editors, and they have a brilliant kind of structure of

the way the imprint is run, and, you know, their packaging is

just incredible and like, but there's a sensibility about

them, like, you really know when they publish a book that it's

really them behind it. So I started to see that sort of

coalescing a bit more when I came back into publishing, and

this was certainly true of atria and Judith at that time, and

even our new team we have in place, because in the past

couple years, we've had a new publisher, a new editorial

director, a new head of integrated marketing, and they

are very savvy about the ways in which they approach the books

and how we we give space to them, and how we publish them.

So, you know, it just seeing little things like that, steps

that people are taking to be like, Oh, we want a cultural

identity as an imprint that will be reflected not just in our

workforce, but in the books that we publish. So, you know, I

think that's that's a an interesting thing to keep in

mind. And I think, you know, if I have it correctly, I remember

finding out a couple of years ago that Riverhead in

particular, you know, they publish, they have a relatively

small list for the year, but they have like, six publicists,

which is why you always see their books everywhere, because

they're so good at promoting their books, so like that kind

of structure. Rethinking the kind of weighting of how the

imprint is run and how it's put together is very helpful to to

observe.

I think that's really a really interesting

angle to bring to a big publishing company. Because I

think when I think of niche and when I think of branding, I

always think of like indies who really, really have a set

identity and only do a particular kind of book. So I

think it's interesting the idea of trying to apply that to a

company that's been around for a long time and maybe has gone

through different iterations.

Yeah, I think, you know, it actually the I should

note the conversation I was having about that very structure

was with the genius, Fiona McRae, who runs Graywolf. And,

you know, similar, I mean, gray wolf is just, you know, they're,

they're geniuses over there. And they have really figured out,

you know, the fact that, like, the quality of your books is

what you have to go on, and then the editorial sensibility that

you apply to them is your calling card. And they, you

know, have such a an extraordinary list because of

that. And they're, they've been able to publish books and give

them a voice in a way that I think, I think few other places

would be able to do. So it is, you know, that is a very kind of

key thing to learn about the way in which books are published and

who publishes that.

Yeah. So how do you exactly approach acquiring

the books that you acquire?

You know, there's, there's, there are two

approaches, in a way. I mean, there's obviously projects we

get in from agents that we consider. But then, you know, a

lot of it's being proactive and going after people, you know,

going after writers that you admire. I mean, one case in

point I'll give you is I've been working on a really fantastic,

sort of unorthodox biography of Buster Keaton, written by Dana

Stevens, the film critic for Slate. And Dana is just, you

know, I've all loved her writing for years, and she's a lovely

human being as well. And, you know, I approached her because I

just thought, you know, when I got to atrium, I was working

there, was thinking of people with whom I wanted to work, and

she was one of the writers, you know, that I just was so excited

to work with so that, you know, it's a combination of things.

But I think, you know, I, I do think, you know, I, my list has

a long standing commitment to, you know, people who come from

marginalized communities and who you know need to be given a

bigger platform. So, you know, I, you know, and I'm very

involved in the line level of the writing of the authors with

whom I work. So that's very key to me. You know, the writing

itself really, really moves me. I mean, another example I'll

give you is I just did, now, Danny Lavery, but former Daniel

Mallory orberg, new book, something, let me shock and

discredit you. And that was a, that was a, an example of an

author whom I admired for years and years, and dreamed, you

know, my wildest dreams, I would dream that I would get to work

with him one day, and that it was such a pleasure working on

that book, because he is a, he is a legitimate genius. I mean,

like he is a, he is a writer of the highest caliber, and is a

humorist of the highest caliber. And so, you know, there are

publishing is long. It's a long it's a long tail business. So

sometimes there will be writers that you don't get to work with

initially, but eventually you get to so it's a combination of

things. I mean, I, you know, I want to, you know, if I react to

the writing, I read a proposal, or I read a manuscript, and I

really take to the writing, and I can see a way forward to

working with the author, then that's, oftentimes, it's as

simple as that, you know. But I mean, there are different

considerations you take into account. And if you're

publishing a nonfiction book, and it's, you know, it's a book

that needs a certain platform, and there are certain things

that the author can accomplish with that platform, and you can

optimize that as a publisher, then those are logistical

considerations that come into play. So it's a variety of

things, but you know, fiction is different, because you typically

get it as full manuscript, and you read the full manuscript and

you can kind of see how the book shaped up, and you can figure

out how you're going to edit it, or how you can work with the

author to make it even stronger. But nonfiction is different

because obviously, you're typically buying it on a

proposal, and so you're working, over the course of several

years, in many cases, to construct that book with the

author to figure out what it's gonna look like.

Since you do work with so many pop culture

icons, I guess, have you ever approached one of them and they

were kind of surprised at the idea of doing a book? Or are you

usually working with people who have expressed interest in the

past?

It can be like that. I mean, there are people that you

know have have wanted to write a book or have a book in them.

They haven't had the just the time and space I'll get. One

example is Jake shears. When I worked with Jake on his memoir,

which is a fantastic memoir, and what happened was that years

ago, I remembered that he had taken creative writing courses

in college. I remember reading that in an article. I forget it

was in, I don't know if it was rolling stone or where it was,

but I and so I knew that he had a bit of because, like, he was

starting to explore some solo work, and there was just, there

was a space there where I thought, maybe now it's time to

have this conversation. And so he and I worked on that book for

a couple of years. And you know, it was, I think my reaching out

is probably the impetus that, like, made him realize this was

the time to do it, but it was also something he'd been wanting

to do for quite some time. So so, you know, it does depend on

the situation. There are people that you approach, you're like,

I didn't think about that. But you know, oftentimes you're

looking for people who, you know are their voices so strong in

one medium that you can see it translating to a book, the book.

So that's what you're trying to keep in mind in those

circumstances.

What are some of the editing projects you've

worked on that have really, like, stretched you and caused

you to grow as a editor, writer, person?

I mean, one book of which I'm inordinately,

inordinately proud is Michael austere book. Spoiler alert, the

hero dies. So this was a the backstory of this is really

something, and kind of speaks to what I was saying earlier, which

is that publishing is sort of a long tail business. I years ago,

when I worked at Harper Collins, I had approached Michael about

writing something kind of like a Paul being super geek type

memoir about his love of television, because at that

time, he was still in Entertainment Weekly, and he had

his very popular ask garciello column, which, for people who

don't know, Michael, kind of pioneered that kind of column in

which writer you know readers write into you and ask you

questions, like being like, I want to know what's going to

happen to this hotline of Grey's Anatomy, and I want to know

what's happening. You know, with this actress who's joining this

TV show, and he would, you know, go and speak to the people in

question and come back and provide answers to people. So,

you know, he got busy, and then I got busy, and then I left

publishing for a bit, and then I came back. And in the ensuing

period, this really horrible thing happened where his

longtime boyfriend and then husband was diagnosed with a

very rare form of neuroendocrine cancer. And Michael had sort of

been documenting some of this online, and I found the writing

so moving and so darkly funny and just really quite unlike

anything I read before. And so, you know, after his husband

passed, and just kind of, I reached out kind of gently and

said, this may be the very last thing of the world you want to

do right now. But have you thought about writing about this

long form? Because it is just, it is just extraordinary. And,

you know, he thought about it for a little bit, and that we

worked on it. And, you know, I, you know, we worked on it for

probably a couple of years. And you know, he had to write his

way into it, and we had to think a lot about the structure. And,

you know, it was after a fair bit of time where he figured

that the book was probably going to toggle back between kind of

13 years preceding that last year and then the last year. And

Michael was just such a wonderful person to work with

him. He was so hard working, and he took it extremely seriously,

obviously. And he's very funny. And it is, you know, I recommend

that book to people. It's, you know, I remember he emailed me

one day saying, I think I have a title. And he said, Can I give

you a call? And I said, Okay. And, or I think he actually did

email it to me, and it was, spoiler alert, spoiler alert,

the hero dies. So I just had the wind knocked out of me because I

thought, oh my god, that is so perfect and heart wrenching. And

it's a book I recommend to people because it's, it will

change your life. It truly will change your life. It's very it's

life affirming, and it's sad and it's heartbreaking, but it is

just, you know, a testament to this long term relationship that

had its ups and downs and challenges that I think

everybody and kind of long relationships, romantic or not,

go through. And so anyway, it was the book that really changed

me profoundly. And it was, it was, it was, I learned a great

deal about how a book is made and how a story is told and,

and, you know, I should say that, you know, Jim Parsons

option that book to turn it into a film. And hopefully that will

happen at some point. But it's, I recommend it very highly. It's

really fantastic.

I'm sold. Yeah, me too.

Yeah, yeah, oh, can I ask my Tory questions? So

none of these are ultra personal. I completely, like,

respect her privacy. I like, totally get that, because I know

a lot of her fans are insane, so I'm not one of them,

just so, you know, they're just enthusiastic.

That's the right word, friends, not like

other girls. I'm not.

I'm a fun fan. That's right. Okay, so did she

about this particular book, or did you approach

her? You know, it's, it's, I, we, you know, I go back

to see her backstage when she comes to New York. And I if this

was 2017 at that time, and it was the native invader tour. And

it was obviously very emotional, because, you know, people were

trying to make sense of the world. And it was, you know, I

was all of her shows were amazing, but I was very moved

that evening. And it just to see this, you know, legendary person

who is just every bit as warm and smart and considered as

you'd want her to be. And I was just chatting with her

afterwards, I just thought, you know, have you thought about,

right? Because I'd worked on her first book years ago. So we,

that's, that's the reason why we had been in touch and and, you

know, she is just amazing. I mean, she's just talk about work

ethic. I mean, like, she is so thoughtful about everything in

which she's creatively invested. And the book is really great. I

mean, she, she is not afraid to, you know, go there and talk

about sensitive things and trying to try to make sense of

the world. I actually know for as difficult as things are right

now, I mean, I really think this is a book that people are going

to savor, because it is what we need right now, like it's honest

and really contends with the large issues in the world right

now. So, yeah, she's, she's, she's very special. I often say

to people, you know, in cases like this, and people go tell me

your heroes, well, I'm like, if your heroes are lovely people,

it's really not a problem. Like, like, so, so,

yeah, that's the pull quote for this episode.

But yeah, did I hear you? I was watching an interview at Google

with you, and did you say you'd worked with Clive

Barker? I did when I was at Harper. I worked briefly

with Clive, who was so nice. And, you know, lives a life

unlike anybody else's. And you know, he Yes, so he was, he was

a love. We guy?

Well, I'm glad to hear that that's, that's my

fan girl moment, so I think we've reached the end of our

question. So I'm going to ask you to just plug whatever you

would like to right now. I know you have a lot of things you

potentially could but, yeah, I

mean, besides my own books, but I, you know, the two,

two books I have coming up that, you know, I would love for

everybody to buy and read. One is Michael Arsenal's new book, I

don't want to die poor. Michael had a New York Times bestseller

that I worked on called, I can't a Jesus, which was so funny. And

this new book is very funny as well. It's mainly about his

student loan debt. So it's very relevant to what people are

going to look through right now. So that goes on sale in early

April. Michael is so funny, and is just, just a star. He's a

star. And then Tory's book, which is May 5. So it's called

resistance, and it's, you know, if you know her music or you

don't, you will enjoy it. For people who love her music, you

will especially appreciate it because she really delves into

some of the stories behind songs that we all love and that are

incredibly thought provoking. So that's, that's kind of what I

have coming up. But you know, please read. Please get out

there. And you know, don't get out there. Actually get in.

Actually, yeah, so those are a few things, but thank you so

much. Okay, and then, and they can follow

you on social media.

Yeah, small, it's at Rakesh with y'all. It's all just

one handle, and, yeah, Twitter, Instagram, everything. So I'm

out there. Hope you like puns, yes, because I will be

delivering them on mats.

Yeah. All right, well, I know I do. So

thank you so much. Rakesh. Thank you. Thank you. This is great.

Thanks so much. And you can find us on Instagram at hybrid pub

Scout pod on Twitter, at hybrid pub Scout, on Facebook, hybrid

pub Scout, so we hope to see you Online, and thanks for giving a

riff about books. You

i.