In a world full of uncertainty and pain, life can feel devoid of meaning and hope—but what if life could also feel incredibly rich by showing up for it fully? You don’t have to have it all figured out to live with depth, and existential humanistic psychology can help you reconnect with life meaningfully.

This episode covers:

• 03:33 - Tea & Crumpets: Rewatching Nashville + The Lowdown
• 07:21 - Step Into My Office: Okay, I’ve learned to cope… but now what?
• 11:25 - The DSM: Existential-Humanistic Psychology
• 43:30 - Now That's What I Call....OKAAAAY!
• 44:43 - Em’s Pick: "End of Beginning" by Djo
• 45:22 - Val’s Pick: "What Sarah Said" by Death Cab for Cutie
• 45:42 - Fire Dumpster Phoenix: A 95 year old man started a Taylor Swift fan club + 80-Year-Old Grandma Who Learned to Swim at 59 Just Became Oldest Ever Female Ironman Finisher

Resources + Stuff  Mentioned in This Episode:

• Nashville (TV Series 2012–2018) - IMDb
• The Lowdown
• "End of Beginning" by Djo
• "What Sarah Said" by Death Cab for Cutie
• 95 year old man started a Taylor Swift fan club
• 80-Year-Old Grandma Who Learned to Swim at 59 Just Became Oldest Ever Female Ironman Finisher

Connect with Us:

• Send a story or ask for advice: butforrealpod@gmail.com 
• But For Real on IG: @butforrealpod
• Now That's What I Call... OKAAAAY Playlist
• The Gaia Center on IG: @thegaiacenter
• Val on IG: @valkaymartin
• The Gaia Center website: www.gaiacenter.co 

DISCLAIMER: But For Real Podcast is not a substitute for individualized mental health treatment or healthcare. This podcast is solely for entertainment and educational purposes. If you are in crisis, please utilize crisis support services, such as the Crisis Text Line (Text START to 741741 in the US) or the 988 Suicide & Crisis Lifeline: (Call 988 in the US), or visit www.findahelpline.com for international resources.

Welcome to, but for Real, a variety show podcast co-hosted by two therapists who

also happened to be loud mouth feminist.

I'm Valerie, your resident elder, millennial child free cat lady.

And I'm Emerson, your resident,

chronically online Gen Z brat.

And on the show we'll serve up a new episode every other week that will take

you on a wild ride through the cultural zeitgeist, mental health and beyond.

You'll definitely laugh and TBH sometimes maybe cry a little because

this is a silly and serious show.

Buckle up my friends, and let's get

into today's episode.

Hi.

Welcome back.

We're here.

Welcome.

We're here.

I'm so glad to be with you.

I know, I feel like it's been 87 years since I saw you fucked.

It has been so long.

And we are virtual because we just had to make it work.

So, you know, sometimes you've just, you just gotta keep

being dedicated in adversity.

So just the adversity, just being our normal

lives.

Yeah.

Yeah, exactly.

The adversity of everyday existence could be another title for this episode.

Um, indeed a shall.

So what I wanna know, Emerson mm-hmm.

Is when in your life did you start thinking about meaning?

I mean,

come on.

I feel like whatever that tweet that was like, you'll be sitting next to a dude

and all of a sudden he's like discovered empathy after like one mushroom journey

and it's like, yeah, I was thinking about this kind of shit when I was.

Six.

Like

I feel like that eldest daughter, thought daughter trope.

I mean, I take residency there.

I've just been thinking it probably, I wasn't really around.

A lot of my parents really sheltered me from death in general.

Yeah.

As a child.

So I feel like.

Cope with that weird kind of as an adult.

Mm-hmm.

But shut up mom and dad.

Sorry.

But, um, I think it was pretty early on always asking questions and I was

just like, what are we doing here?

Like, what really though, what does, what does this all mean?

Um, I just was always thinking about stuff.

So I would say really early on in my childhood, I was

kind of starting to be like.

What does this all mean, do we think?

Yeah.

Um, and I couldn't really even tell you why I had a really big imagination as a

kid, so I feel like I could just go there.

Mm-hmm.

Um, but yeah, we've been thought daughtering early.

Um, I should have an Olympic gold and thinking, so what about you?

What's your truth?

Uh, you know, early childhood has always been kind of fuzzy for me, um, other

than like, Barbies and trolls and shit.

Yeah.

Um, but I know for sure by the time I hit like middle school and started

to journal, um, you know, 10, 11 years old, that big questions were

being asked as like, I don't know.

I guess I hope that that's true for most people, but.

You know, maybe some people were, um, appropriately occupied by like sports

or something that we weren't doing.

So yeah, the questions, the questions are many.

Mm.

She was a journaler.

Okay.

Yes.

Now it's time for our first segment, tea and Crumpets, where we tell you what

we can't stop talking about this week.

So I was like, what the hell am I even gonna put this week?

I feel like I don't have my ass for my elbow, but I've been rewatching

Nashville because 9 1 1 Nashville has come out and everyone's talking about it.

Oh yeah, I saw

that.

Yeah.

Are they connect?

Like, no.

Okay.

Like it's just, they're both just in Nashville.

Okay.

And about like in Nashville, I guess stupid, but, um, like OG

Nashville is so soapy and bad.

Like it's awesome.

Like, it's just like so drama.

I can't listen to them singing.

Like my butt is levitating off the chair because I'm just like squeezing so hard.

'cause it's so cringe to me.

Like I just can't deal with how like they sing these songs

about this fuck ass stuff.

But.

It's dramatic.

Hayden Piner kind of one of my like og bitchy girls.

Like she's fierce in that show.

Mm-hmm.

So I've just been enjoying and like they show all these scenes, 'cause

this shit was filmed in 2012, y'all.

Yeah.

The Nashville now would be quaking her boots at 2012 Nashville.

Oh my God.

So I kind of feel like one of those annoying bitches that's

like, you guys don't know what the real Nashville used to be like.

Me never even lived in Nashville.

But um.

It's really soapy and cringe.

It's kind of funny.

I feel like I just need something light and I get fixated on the

show like this for a while and then I drop it 'cause I'm bored.

So yeah, it's kind of like a no strings attached, which I kind of like.

Um, yeah.

So, yeah.

What's your tea for this week?

Mm-hmm.

Well, I have to say I have never watched an episode in Nashville.

Um, and you would hate it, so don't.

I moved here in 2012, and I do love Connie Britton.

I, I like Hayden Paneer from like early heroes.

Um, but I love Connie Britton, so I've always kind of thought maybe one

day, but also you're probably right.

Just, yeah.

You would hate it.

So,

so my recent tea is also a show called The Lowdown.

It is on f, it's an FX show, so it's on Hulu.

Um, directed by, created by Sterling Harjo, who is a member of

the Seminole Nation of Oklahoma.

He also directed res reservation dogs, was his show.

Um, and man, he apparently is quite prolific.

But this stars Ethan Hawk.

Um, Keith, David, who is one of those like faces, you know, he's

been in a million things, but he's not like a household name.

Uh, and Ryan Keer Armstrong, who was cast as the new chosen one

in the upcoming Buffy reboot.

Um, so it's a great cast and it is loosely based on the story of

this historian named Leroy Chapman.

So, um, Ethan Hawke's character calls himself a. Tulsa Truth historian, which

I love, but he's really committed to exposing corruption, especially, um, among

like race racial relations kind of stuff.

'cause there's a lot of that in the Tulsa.

Community, of course.

Um, but I, so I got to like reading a little bit about this guy, this,

this person who, it's loosely based on who like passed away in

2015, when he was 20 years old.

His mother died in a murder suicide in Tulsa.

So kind of dark.

Oh my God.

But he was an American public historian, citizen journalist,

activist and artist whose research reshaped contemporary understanding

of Tulsa Oklahoma's racial history.

So.

Sounds kind of iconic and even if this is like obviously

large, uh, a lot fictionalized.

Um, so far it's really good.

We're like three or four episodes in and really well done.

Okay, I'll have to check it out.

Now it's time for step into my office where you get advice from your

favorite professionally qualified, personally peculiar therapist.

So this listener says, dear Val and em, I've been in therapy for a few years and

it's helped with my anxiety, but lately I've been craving something deeper.

I keep thinking, okay, I've learned to cope, but now what?

I am not in crisis.

I just feel disconnected like I'm living on autopilot.

My therapist talks a lot about thought patterns and behaviors, but

I wanna talk about like purpose, mortality, the big heavy shit.

Is that weird or is that actually what therapy's supposed to be about?

Sincerely functioning, but in the void.

Mm

Oh dear Listener.

Yeah.

What do we think?

I think that can be totally what therapy is supposed to be about, if

that's what you want it to be about.

Mm-hmm.

You know what I mean?

Like, and I think just how you framed this with, I've been in therapy,

I've kind of learned my patterns.

I'm continuing to expand on.

The things that exacerbate my quotations symptoms.

But like what's else?

What's more, that's the perfect time to make the therapeutic pivot, whether it's

with your therapist now saying, Hey, this feels like the next step for me.

And if they're like, Hey, existentialism, really just like isn't my thing.

If you just have like a super hard CBT or I guess no shade.

Mm-hmm.

But like.

Go find someone that like really loves to be in the nitty gritty about that

kind of stuff because there's definitely space for that in the therapeutic realm.

I think like 100% there's space for that because part of you coming

to therapy and airing parts of yourself out and rewiring those

patterns and learning about yourself.

Uh, because we're existentialist therapists, like of course we are

all, I'm always blending that shit.

Yeah.

In to most of my sessions anyways.

Um, but especially the people that are just like.

What does this all mean and how we get really freaked out about that.

There's so, I mean, there's so much in there.

What are your thoughts as the P-H-D-P-H-P-D-H dear of it all?

Can we talk today?

Right?

Yeah.

I mean, it's so interesting to me because I, yeah, I, I'm sure

that there are therapists out there who are just like, really?

Uh, entrenched in the Western medical model and approach everything

from a treatment of mental health disorder perspective and Right.

That's just not how I've ever worked.

So, um.

Yeah.

Listener.

If you find yourself, uh, kind of like good to go on the coping skills front,

find someone who can go there with you.

And I think this is one of those things where, you know, the, the sort

of cliche is like, you can only take people as far as you've gone, right?

And so, mm-hmm.

If there's.

There are people out there who, if this is not like the waters they

swim in, um, then they're just not gonna be able to go there with you.

Right?

Because this involves be, it, it, it's a process of being with, right?

It is not a, we are treating your symptoms.

It is being in the messy shit that is the ambiguity of real life and.

All of the aspects that we often, uh, try not to think about or that we're

just kind of living with and, you know, the difficulties, the existential

givens that we'll get into later.

But yeah, it's, it really is a different orientation that some people may sort

of naturally blend in, but many may not.

So if you are looking for that, it is out there.

It is not necessarily easy to find, so it's like have conversations,

maybe do some consultation calls.

'cause not everyone is gonna list existential therapy on their

website, but hey, it is a box on psychology today, so you can try.

Yes.

Go find your right fit.

Yes.

And now it's time for the DSM.

In our DSM, all varieties of dysfunction, spiraling, and meltdowns are welcome.

In this segment, we break down complicated concepts and common misconceptions

about mental health, wellbeing, and tell you what we really think.

I just have to say that, um, having been exposed.

To this, the existential humanistic psychology world in the last year, and

I still feel like a baby because I'm like, how have I been doing this for 15

years and I'm really just now getting like more formally introduced to this

world and it's history and all of that.

But, so, uh, Dr. Lewis Hoffman, who is one of, I would say like the living

legends of existential humanistic psychology, one of the current kind

of leaders along with Kirk Schneider and, um, some other people in Europe.

Um, he calls the DSM the damn shitty manual.

Which I love, which, awesome.

Iconic.

That's,

and it's,

and it's, it's, so let's talk a little bit about the history and roots of this.

So, existential psychology, um, grew out of not surprisingly

existential philosophy.

So you might recognize names like Ki Guard, Nietzsche, he.

Sarge a voir, all of them were asking like, what does

it actually mean to be human?

Can we have a philosophy that is a little bit more pragmatic and

applicable to understanding what the fuck this is and how we do it?

Well?

How do we face these realities with, uh, about the fact that we're all gonna

die without losing our minds about it?

Um, then psychologists like Viktor Frankl, who wrote Man's Search for Meaning Rolo

Ma, Jim Ental, Irvin Yalom, brought all of these ideas into the world of psychology

and therapy, really emphasizing things like choice and responsibility facing

life's givens that we'll get into.

Um, and really.

It, it, it's, it's an interesting kind of paradox because I think when

we hear some of those words, we, it, it can seem to be aligned with that

sort of hyper individualistic, like it's up to you to make your life good.

Right.

And it, and it is, but there's also the.

Larger view, like, you know, I view that it very much is also systemically

informed because it acknowledges all of these realities that we live with.

And like any Sure, uh, thing historically, it's maybe better

at that now than it used to be.

But I think there are people, especially with Simone De Bois who wrote the

second Sex and, you know, talked all about like what it meant to.

Be, be conditioned as a woman that one is not born a woman,

but becomes a woman, right?

So.

Um, I think that is, it is that blend of like recognizing, yes, it

is up to us, but that doesn't mean that it's like a pick yourself up

by your bootstraps kind of thing.

So, um, humanistic psychology arose around the fifties, sixties.

That was sort of a reaction against the behaviorism, which is like.

We are all just like pushing levers.

We are machines, we're, it's just conditioning.

Uh, and also, so, so sort of before behaviorism, the big thing of course was,

you know, psychoanalysis, like everything comes back to your, your drives and, and

probably according to Freud's sex, right?

And, and your parents.

And so.

Everything is sort of, you know, family of origin, which, you

know, there's a time and place for that, but it is not everything.

So humanistic psychology was like, Hey, turns out we need to kind

of look at like the whole person.

And people like Maslow came along talking about.

Self-actualization, Carl Rogers, um, of, you know, really being, uh, with

the client, not as sort of like an expert hierarchical relationship.

Um, and some of the, Charlotte Bueller was another big one, so Really?

Mm-hmm.

Humanistic psychology was focusing on potential, right?

What if psychology didn't have to be all about pathology?

Like it had been focused for the first, you know.

Uh, 75 years of this.

So potential authenticity, growth, viewing people as fundamentally

good and capable rather than broken.

Um, so existentialists are like, Hey, you're gonna die.

We need to figure out how to deal with that.

And then humanists are like, but also you're full of potential, so

let's figure that part out too.

Yay.

So how do we marry existentialism with humanistic psychology?

So the shared DNA of both.

Both of these moments are Rosas, you guessed it.

Rebellions baby again against psychoanalysis against

the two deterministic.

Do you wanna fuck your mom?

Oedipus of it all.

Like to the, to the behaviorism.

We're talking Pavlov salivating everywhere too mechanical, so mm-hmm.

It's giving humans aren't rats or case studies where conscious beings

with agency, who would've thought.

Mm-hmm.

Um, so our existentialism that is really equating to facing reality.

This is now where we go into what we call that, those existential givens.

So these are the.

Existential givens.

These are the tasks or the things that we encounter across the lifespan.

So death, of course, our finality creates such this urgency and anxiety.

Um.

Shout out anyone with death, anxiety.

Uh, I'm parking it over there with you too.

Freedom.

Our terrifying responsibility for our own choices.

Isolation.

So even with love and connection and experiencing that, we still all

ultimately remain separate beings.

I am me and you or you.

And what does that mean?

That alone, um.

Honey scared.

And then of course meaninglessness.

There is no pre-written script for any of this shit.

We must create meaning for ourselves and people get really tore up over that.

I tell clients when I'm being a little existential sneaker, I'm always

like, I want you to ponder this, and I'm mean for this sometimes.

'cause I'm like, I want you to ponder this.

You have to live with yourself for the rest of your life.

How does that, how does that make you feel right now?

And everyone's like.

And I'm like, no.

But what does it mean to say like, I have to live with myself for the

rest of my, myself, of my life.

I get to live with myself for the rest of my life.

What does it mean to make meaning out of that?

To live with yourself?

So really we kind of, and I think there is no set, uh, you know, in like the Erickson

psychosocial stages of development, there is nothing hard and fast when

it comes to these existential givens.

You are probably encountering all of these in.

Larger and smaller quantities across the entire lifespan of

how things are occurring for you.

Um, and so now we kind of roll into humanism.

So again, this is about embracing our potential.

This is bringing the warmth or the optimism, having faith in the fact

that you're gonna be on a growth journey through the rest of your life.

The existentialists asked, how do we face suffering?

And the humanist.

Asks, how do we live fully?

So in practice, again, the existentialism, that's the depth, the

authenticity, also the responsibility.

That's a big part of existentialism.

The humanistic.

How is that compassion, the unconditional positive regard,

how does that help inform life?

And so together this marriage, it's helping balance the really heavy

with the hopeful, which Lord knows we need in these moments of time.

Damn.

So.

Kind of getting into this like wave of psychology, this existential

humanistic marriage of psychology became known as the third force.

Um, so alongside of Freud's psychoanalysis and Skinner's behaviorism, because

this is emphasizing the self-awareness, freedom, intentional living.

Always keep that nugget in your mind.

Freud said, everything's about your mother.

Skinner said, you're a woo trained pigeon.

The eh folks said, you're free, terrified, full of potential.

Congrats.

Go live it and figure it all out in real time.

Ooh,

figure it out.

Yes.

And the meaning piece, which we're gonna keep circling back to.

But I always like to say like 'cause, because when we really take that

responsibility, and I think, you know, it's different for maybe folks

who have strong religious convictions where they feel like, oh, I already

get my sense of meaning from this.

Like I'm told why life is meaningful and what's gonna happen and what it's all for.

And, and like mm-hmm.

That's not knocking that like, you know, I think a lot of, a lot of folks who don't

have that kind of envy, that level of, you know, certainty about meaning, but

for folks who maybe don't have that, who are kind of creating it for themselves.

Uh, it can be a big mind fuck of like, oh my God, oh my God, what is it?

What is it?

What's my purpose?

What is it?

I'm gonna find that one thing, right?

So, uh, mm-hmm.

I love the quote from Kurt Vonnegut who said, uh, we're

all just here to fart around.

Don't let anyone tell you anything different.

Like, like the, the meaning, you know, for the heatedness, like

the meaning can just be like.

You know, go tr frolicking through the field, right?

Like, hug your friend, pet your cat.

Like meaning, doesn't have to be some like singular purpose that you will

discover at some point once and for all, and you'll finally have your path, right.

So I think that's important.

Um, so what does this look like in practice, in therapy as a meeting

of two human beings as opposed to mainstream western psychology,

medical model of expert treatment professional and the patient.

Um, if you can't tell, it's just really not a fan.

So the therapist role.

Rather than sort of the fixer or authority, which, which we still

have recognition that there is an inherent power differential.

Um, there is a, a service being provided, right, a professional service, and yet.

Like there's room for the humanity too, uh, to be a

fellow traveler, as Yalom said.

So therapy can become a real relationship co-creating understanding in the moment.

And this is where, you know, whereas like, um, Freud and some

of the other psychoanalysis people.

Would just be talking about like, oh, any feelings that, you know, the

therapist or the client has that come up in the context of therapy are all just

transference or counter transference.

They're about your own shit, about your own life and it's not about the person

sitting across from you, like mm-hmm.

Existential humanistic would say, actually that's kind of dehumanizing

because we are two people.

Like sure.

There may be some stuff that come that is getting projected from our own

shit and vice versa for the client.

But also we are two people in relationship.

It's a weird type of relationship.

Yes.

But we are two humans engaging with each other and so there, you know, there's

a more of a space to recognize that, oh yeah, we're actually having feelings

about this relationship, this interaction.

It's, to me, to, to pretend otherwise is just kind of.

I don't know, inauthentic.

So key principles in sessions speaking there of that authenticity, which of

course is one of those buzzwords that's like lost all sense of meaning, but,

um, the therapists should model being genuine and not performative, right?

Like, we talk about this a lot in supervision, especially with interns

who were coming in like thinking that they have to like where this therapist

had of expertise and like, um, I remember having this conversation.

Um, with, in kind of intern supervision consultation.

That's a lot of words.

But anyway, uh, one of our supervisors basically saying that

in, in supervision with the intern.

She was like, well, what did you really wanna say in that moment?

And she was like, whatever she said was just like super genuine and like, really.

Spot on.

And she was like, mm-hmm.

So why didn't you say that?

Right?

Um, and that doesn't mean that like we, gosh, we, that we should

go into client interactions or day-to-day interpersonal interactions

with absolutely no filter, right?

That's, um Oh sure.

Right.

What te Terry Real would call unbridled self-expression.

No.

The filter's there for a reason, honey.

Right.

Like, yeah, we do wanna be aware.

Lord knows I need

it, but there's a way to show up.

You know, the filter allows us to be skillful and can and kind, but

we can be skillful and kind and still be authentic and genuine.

Right.

Um, the therapist also obviously is practicing empathic attunement, so that

deep non-judgmental listening, which I say obviously we like to think that

that is always present and it, you know, most of the time hopefully it is, but

it's in other modalities of therapy.

I don't feel like that non-judgmental presence is as, uh, highlighted.

I think some of these humanistic principles have become more folded in.

In recent years to sort of recognize that they are part of the common

factors of therapeutic alliance.

But they originated from this framework.

Um, there's the here and now focus.

So really looking at, and I love, love this kind of stuff, right?

Like what's happening in the room, what's happening between us is really

a mirror for your life outside of here.

Um, that freedom and responsibility, looking at when we might be avoiding

choice or getting paralyzed.

By feeling like we need to make the perfect choice,

which shows up a lot, right?

Um, the meaning making, helping people craft narratives that

align with their values.

Um, I love Jen Loudon, who's an author.

She has a book called Why Bother?

And it's so, it's beautiful.

'cause it's like we throw out that question like, Ugh, I bother.

And she's like, no, really?

Let's ask.

Why should I bother and, and really get curious about the answer to that question.

That's our meaning making.

And then the paradoxical intention of embracing fear can actually

help us release its grip.

It's, you know, as an act, which is aligned in a lot of ways

with existential humanistic.

We talk about like the Chinese finger trap.

The harder you try to get out of the uncomfortable thing,

the more stuck you get.

So the more that we can soften around it, the more that that uncomfortable.

Sensation, like fear can soften.

So in eh practice, symptoms are viewed more as signals, not like

things that need to be fixed, whether it's anxiety or guilt or despair.

Um, sometimes, and I, and I appreciate it, Dr. Hoffman spoke to this in a talk

I heard him give recently that, you know, we, we tend to demonize loneliness.

And, and he made a distinction.

He's like, no, I am going next weekend to this cabin for five days to be lonely.

And someone tried to correct like, oh, do you mean like solitude?

He's like, no, I mean, to be lonely like, like it's stepping into that

actually as uncomfortable as it is, also provides me this, you know,

ability to be in this liminal space that I don't get when I'm constantly

able to connect with others Even.

You know, even just like stepping into a little bit of solitude,

like actually looking at these uncomfortable things as having value.

Right?

Um, so it is experiential.

We're not just interpreting we're, we're saying what's happening here,

uh, and feeling into what's true.

So some examples of that if we're talking about something like burnout,

rather than just being like, Hmm, this sounds like major depressive disorder.

We might say like, wow, there might be some alienation from self.

There might be a lack of, uh, meaning or authenticity in your work.

Um.

I'm, I'm working with someone right now who's like, you know, made

a mid-career change into like an advanced degree and then now in like,

I think late fifties, early sixties is like, actually I don't wanna do that

anymore, and I do have to keep working.

So like, what does it look like to redefine?

Because yeah, if I stay in this career path as much as I invested

in that time, energy, money.

I hate it.

And so that inauthenticity would be like soul crushing to stay in it just because

of sunk cost fallacy, all of that, right?

Um, so as I said, the therapists, uh, that we often draw inspiration from

Yalom, of course, our boy, um, Bugal, Olo, me, Emmy Evander, and Kirk Schneider.

Natalie Rogers.

So, so many, so many who have come before and emphasize these important

qualities in the therapeutic relationship of courage, creativity, presence.

So.

Not about fixing whatever's showing up, but looking at, for instance,

with anxious attachment, it's like, oh, let's, let's make you, you

know, a securely attached person.

It's getting curious about what does that longing for, connection mean about

your, you know, being human and, and what connection actually looks like for you.

So it can be kind of messy and, and.

You know, not, not always clear, but that's, it's what's real, right?

It's, it's a deep commitment to what is real.

Mm Ooh.

Ooh, ooh.

And so why does this matter, especially now, we always have to go there.

Um, we're living in a modern crisis.

Yeah.

We have never been more connected digitally, yet more

disconnected, existentially.

There's just so much going on because we're drowning in stimulus.

Constantly, but we're starving for meaning.

There's such a surplus of the rise of AI and information about climate anxiety and

the end, the scroll of curated perfection, self-image, and it's all just kind of

intensifying, just such a collective.

Identity crisis.

Nobody knows what it means to be authentic anymore.

We throw that word around like it's whatever.

Um, everyone is like, oh, I, I've never had an original thought.

Well, yeah, because at some point stuff just comes around and

there's lack of originality there.

So we're really just facing what Rollo may would call the age of

anxiety, but only now with better wifi because we're so plugged in.

Um.

The world feels increasingly absurd, I think.

I love that word, absurd.

Oh, yes.

Um, it's fierce.

It's such a fierce word.

Mm-hmm.

And it's so fucking true right now because our institutions are collapsing.

Certainty is gone.

I think especially if you live kind of in the western world and the states, I

can't help but hearing so many people.

That have lived here their entire lives and say, I literally have no idea like

what's gonna happen to the country that I'm living in, let alone the world.

So, eh, psychology is giving us somewhat of a compass when there is

quite literally no map for this stuff.

Mm-hmm.

Again, addressing what CBT and other approaches may gloss over.

So it's not just about how to cope, but why.

To live and how to live with the ambiguity of reality, intensely

holding those paradoxes of life that you are going to live in.

The moments of joy and sorrow and freedom, and fear, and

hope and despair all at once.

Two truths can always be happening at the exact same time, and neither are invalid.

In fact, they are both.

True that both and kind of language.

If you're my client, you're like, here she goes again.

She's always saying both and um, but it's true babe.

And then of course, how we look at the relevancy in the therapy field.

Some clients want symptom relief.

They come in, they say, I want you to fix this.

I don't wanna deal with this.

Do something to make it go away.

And to that, I will say I may be the best and worst therapist for you because I'm

gonna say, ah, that's not how this works.

Um, and some people are saying, I don't just want symptom relief, like

our step into my office submission.

They want depth, they want authenticity.

They want a relational presence.

They want to be doing the work in a way that feels more.

Worthy, like more meaningful.

So this, eh, psychology is bridging the science and the soul, which is just.

The Gaia Center in like entirety, I think.

Um, so it, again, it's validating that anxiety or that grief, the

longing are all part of being alive.

It's less on pathologizing behavior and more coming alongside the fact of you're

just being a fucking human, having a human experience to what's happening right now.

And that's not a mental illness or a pathology.

It's normal.

It's normal to feel all of these things as we're dealing with existential concerns.

Mm-hmm.

Um.

And again, kind of how that ties into the sociocultural moment.

I think generationally it can be interesting to talk amongst your peer

groups about how we are all facing existential concerns right now.

Gen Z is intensely existential and nostalgic.

We are a very hopeless generation.

There's not a lot of hope there.

And so, um, you know, it's interesting to kind of make

that work alongside of decades.

Fix yourself narratives, you know, put yourself up by bootstraps.

Lean into productivity, biohacking, self-help.

Optimization will save you.

Optimization is great, but it's not gonna save you.

It doesn't give meaning to your life.

There are some things that are totally fine to be optimal, and

also life is not fucking optimal.

There's not always gonna be an optimization for

something, damn it, so damn it.

Right?

We have to invite, you know, the.

Slow kind of wise growth, which eh therapy does provide for you.

Um, this is not about checking boxes or like getting that spreadsheet done.

It is luxuriating a little in that uncomfortable water.

It's urge surfing, it's riding that wave a little bit, but

doing it alongside someone.

That can be in the shit with you.

And that's really what most of it is.

So you know, the mindful apps, mindfulness apps and journaling challenges

and gratitude jars are important.

And I do those things and I recommend those things.

And also, can you just be a little bit in the void sometimes?

Together.

Go be in the void with your therapist.

Say, Hey, I would like to be in the void for today.

If a client came in, I'd be like, fuck yeah, let's

go.

Let's go, let's go.

Because I have stuff to say.

Oh my God.

Um, so.

One more historical bit that I wanna add and then a couple of shout outs.

So, um, I, it was interesting, so, you know, I mentioned in the

beginning that I'm like, how the fuck am I just now like, delving in and

learning about all of these things?

Yeah.

And a lot more, I mean, we all got Maslow and our 1 0 1 and,

but to this level, like I just.

I didn't have the exposure to this, um, in a formal way.

What I did know about was the field of positive psychology, which like, people

like Martin Seligman, um, came along, you know, 25 years ago now, and sort

of said like, Hey, psychology should be more than about, you know, disorder.

Like we should be about flourishing.

And it's like, Hey girl.

Did you know that the humanistic psychologists were saying

this 50 years ago were Hello?

But it was so interesting because I read this chapter in, um, I, we had apo.

Oh, wow.

We had a positive psychology textbook in one of my classes this semester.

And I think it was Brent Dean Robbins, who's another legend in the field

who wrote this chapter about the historical roots of positive psychology,

like back to EH and how when the positive psychologist came on the

scene, they basically shot all over.

Um, eh, and we're basically just like, yeah, y'all are not real scientists.

There was a reason why your movement faded and you're basically irrelevant.

And so we're gonna come in and do a properly girls, right?

Right.

Like real scientists.

And we're gonna study quantitative because that is the only respectable science.

Now, 25 years ago, they've, you know, the whole field of psychology,

including positive psychology, is kind of coming around to recognize

like, oh, wait, turns out the, the humanists were like onto something.

And that qualitative research can be very valuable and a qualitative

understanding of people's, you know, phenomenological lived experiences

turns out is valuable in this field.

Who would've thought, um, yeah.

But yeah, it was kind of wild like reading about that history and like it

was, there was some cattiness and I don't know that it's entirely resolved either.

So I used to be like, you know, like, oh, positive psychology is amazing.

And I'm like, okay, I'm not gonna throw the baby out with the bath

water, but also like kind of fuck y'all for being so rude to your flowers.

Um, I'm like, damn, the divas are fighting like the divas are.

They really are.

So the shout outs that I wanted to make, so I, you know, Dr.

Lewis Hoffman, um, this summer he released two books in tandem that kind of, uh,

compliment each other through a PA press.

One of them is, um, I'm not gonna get the titles fully right, but

existential humanistic case formulation.

Which is fascinating because he talks about how problematic a,

the sort of typical medical model case conceptualization is in that.

Yeah.

It's all looking problem, problem, problem.

You're not seeing the human, you're only focusing on the problem.

It's done in the first one or two sessions.

It's static.

You put it away.

It is purely for managed care insurance.

Bullshit.

Right?

And where he's comes along and is like, Hey, what if this could actually.

Help us to direct our, you know, therapy in a more.

Um, productive way in a more whole person way, and we continue to use

it to guide and we don't, you know, decide who this person is within

the first two times of meeting them.

Right?

Um, and also really calls out how all of that, um, the Western

medical model is deeply racist and sexist and all the things, right?

Mm-hmm.

So shout out to that.

'cause he was like.

Oh, and the other, the other book was, um, basically evidence-based, eh,

um, interventions, which you can then build in as you're doing your treatment

planning from the, your case formulation.

Um, he's about to do a certificate program in all of this that I'm gonna be taking.

And it's, uh, yeah, I just basically, he said I didn't wanna write these books.

Uh, I kept asking other people to write them, but no one would.

So as a political act, I wrote these books basically so that he could

make a it clear to people like.

Whether it's, um, academic programs, training programs, uh, places that

institutions, agencies that only work with managed care insurance

companies make it clear that these, eh, interventions are evidence-based.

Now, they might be called other things like in, you know, whatever, CBT or

whatever else, but mapping them on and going like, oh no, when you're doing

this, you're actually doing this.

And so if you just name it this.

Thing, then your, your insurance will say, sounds like you're doing good work, right?

Yeah.

So I love that.

And then Dr. Uh, Kirk Schneider has, uh, done so much, um, with the Existential

Humanistic Institute, but he has recently launched this new program that I'm

gonna be starting in called the Core of Depth Healers, where he's wanting

to bring eh type work and like deep interpersonal restorative relationship.

To all kinds of things.

So not just in therapy, but in schools, in, you know, across, in community

settings, making this type of longer term, um, therapy that's not just like

quick solution-based symptom reduction.

Available to more people.

So that's what this movement is about.

So it's basically this free training mm-hmm.

That he's inviting not just clinicians, but people in who have this capacity

to be part of this movement in any way that wanna bring this kind

of work to more people, um, to be a part of this core of death.

Healers so.

So rad.

So I haven't started it yet, but I will, I need to get on top of it like tomorrow.

So those, I wanted to make those shout outs.

And then just to wrap up, basically, what does this offer to, um, our

clients, to all of us as human beings, um, is it offers a radical freedom

that even when we are in the worst of circumstances, Victor Frankel being, uh,

case in point that we do get to still.

Create meaning and choose our response, right?

It's not about, uh, just like silver lining your, the, the

worst situation, but about owning the agency that we still have.

Nonetheless, um, about looking at responsibility.

That freedom is terrifying because our choices do matter, but stepping into

that is what makes our life meaningful.

Living in congruence, living with authenticity rather than just in a

performative way seeking approval.

Um, doing that meaning making work of ongoing co-creation, looking at

that restorative relationship as healing in and of itself, right?

Like regardless of what.

The content of what we're talking about, if we're present together,

that that is inherently healing.

Um, we're not seeking, you know, perfection or optimization

like you talked about.

We're seeking integration, embracing all of the messiness as features, not a flaw.

And then.

You know, when appropriate, bringing in a more, a little bit more

transpersonal spiritual dimension for folks who are aligned with that

and looking at this as sacred space.

I mean, I think sacred space can even be totally secular,

but you know, it just depends on the person, how they frame that.

Um, really making this inward and outward impact of groundedness,

gratitude, openness, and that compassion towards self can expand

more and compassion toward others.

With that ripple effect grow within, heal Together baby, um, and that

practicing this way is a therapist really helps to deepen your empathy too.

Which can prevent burnout, right?

So it reminds us that being human is the work.

Not just like doing therapeutic interventions, bringing

tools, bringing strategies.

It's being your most human self.

And the more that you walk your talk in this, the better

clinician that you're gonna be.

So, eh, therapy is like come for the meaning crisis.

Stay for the emotional rebirth.

And you know, maybe crying about stardust sometimes because we are here for it.

Okay?

But for real, indeed.

Existential humanistic psychology reminds us that therapy is not just

about fixing what we perceive as broken.

It's about remembering what it means to be fully alive.

That invitation to stop outsourcing our meaning and start living it, that

even in the unpredictability and and finiteness of our life, that it can be

unbelievably rich when we show, show up.

Fully for it.

So, uh, it's not about having it all figured out.

It's just like giving a shit and showing up to the mess.

Hell yeah.

Woo.

Okay.

And now our musical segment.

Now, that's what I call where Emerson and I each share a song with each

other each week as representatives of our respective generations.

We tell you a little bit about the song or artist and then we press pause, we

share the song with each other, and then we come back for our live reaction

and we're capturing it all on a Spotify playlist linked in the show notes for you.

A

kind of existential edition here.

I chose end of beginning by Joe, so, oh my God.

If you were on TikTok, bitch, if you were anywhere on the internet,

you've heard this song Wasn't me.

He dropped.

He dropped this in 2022, but it blew up on the on TikTok in 2024.

So the artist is Joe Curie most well known for his role.

Can you told me about him?

Steve Harrington.

Yeah.

From Stranger Things.

I love this song.

It was overplayed for a bit, but I feel like it's perfect for this.

I think it truly captures like an essence of Gen Z, nostalgia and existentialism.

Having a recognition for your former self, finding meaning and a special place.

This song makes me feel vibrational and contemplative is what I wrote.

How

funny.

I love that.

Okay, let's listen.

Dang.

That was so good.

I, I, so you knew it, right?

Well, the only part that I recognized was that just, just me.

You'll be fine.

Be fine.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

But like the rest of the song, holy shit.

I'm like, I, it's, it was a client who told me about him, so I'm like,

okay, I, I need to get on there and actually listen to three years too late.

Okay.

I'm not gonna play my whole song for you 'cause it's long, but I'm gonna play

you the first little bit and then your homework is to listen to the rest of it.

'cause you're just gonna cry.

Cry your little eyes out.

I'm like, bitch, not you giving me existential crisis

00 AM on a Tuesday.

Oh my

God.

Right?

Oh, I'm shook it every time.

Every time.

No, I'm.

And now for our last segment of the show, welcome to Fire Dumpster Phoenix.

It is rough out there, y'all.

And we need all the hope we can get.

It's time to go dumpster diving for some positive news and rides from the

leftover Happy Meal Ashes Together.

I just thought this was darling.

95-year-old Frank from the Remming Heights retirement community in Omaha.

Was enjoying talking about Taylor Swift's new album, the Life of a Showgirl

with one of those community employees.

And she disclosed she was sad.

She never got a response from Taylor with fan letters she sent across the years.

Frank then decided that they would start a fan club and members

are now up to triple digits.

Frank has enjoyed connecting with hundreds of people over their shared

love of Taylor Swift's music, and hopes to secure a visit from the Star

and their little slice of the world.

The clip from the article, you're never too old to have fun and dream.

Ah, how cute.

Oh my God.

Love that.

Ugh.

This little kid, mine is, mine is also about an elder because I feel

like we're both kind of like, like, you know, in that like, oh yeah,

let's, let's face mortality, but also recognize that bitch while you still

breathing, you still got a life to live.

Okay?

And period.

So this woman, um, Natalie Grabow from New Jersey.

80 years old.

She did not even learn to swim until she was 59.

She just became the oldest fir uh, ever female Ironman finisher.

And if you're not familiar, an Ironman is you swim 2.4 miles and

then you immediately get on a bike and pedal 112 miles, and then you

immediately run a full 26 mile marathon.

So her coach said that she's 80, she's 80.

Fuck me, right?

I couldn't get through a fucking Spartan spread without practically

having to get medevaced outta there,

you know?

And this is a woman who grew up before Title ix, expanded competitive

opportunities for female athletes.

So she like, oh my God.

Came to this later in life 20 years ago.

She did her.

First, uh, half Iron Man after just learning how to swim.

And then a few years later she did the full length.

Um, and so this time she conquered the famous course in Hawaii, setting that

record for oldest ever female finisher.

Holy shit.

I mean, wow.

Shout out.

Holy shit.

Natalie, I'm putting you on my Pinterest mood board.

I think seriously, and on that note, like maybe go out and do some shit

you didn't think you're capable of.

They wanna run a wall, right?

No, I'm like, let's go girls.

I'm gonna run through a brick fucking wall right now.

Alright, listeners, well.

That's all we have for this time.

Love you.

Go be existential.

Bye.

This has been another episode of But For Real, produced by Valerie

Martin and Emerson writer and

edited by Sean Conlin.

But for Real is the Gaia Center production.

The Gaia Center offers individual couples and group therapy for clients

across Tennessee and in person in our Nashville office, as well as

coaching for clients worldwide.

For show notes or to learn more about our work, visit gaia center.co or find us

on Instagram at the Gaia Center and at.

But for Real Pod But for Real

is intended for education and entertainment and is not a substitute

for mental health treatment.

Also since we host this podcast primarily as humans rather than clinicians, we

are not shy here about sharing our opinions on everything from snacks and

movies to politicians and social issues.

Thanks so much for listening to this episode.

See you next time.

Bestie.