Shownotes
Cat Perlson, Leadership Development Corporate Trainer
We have an engaging conversation with Cat Perlson. We talk about the profound impact of trauma on mental health, advocating for the validation of emotions and resilience after traumatic experiences.
Here are the key takeaways from our discussion:
1. Embracing Vulnerability and Seeking Support: Cat Perlson's courageous journey emphasizes the importance of seeking help, being vulnerable, and addressing mental health challenges. By sharing her experience with anxiety, depression, and PTSD, she encourages openness and seeks to destigmatize seeking medical assistance for hormonal changes affecting mental health.
2. Psychological Safety and Empathy: We explore the significance of creating psychologically safe environments, validating others' feelings and traumas, and using empathy to understand diverse experiences. Cat's emphasis on understanding and accepting one's emotions contributes to fostering positive workplace cultures and personal growth.
3. Self-Compassion and Growth Mindset: Cat Perlson's inspiring message of hope and personal growth after traumatic experiences resonates with the concept of a growth mindset and the significance of self-compassion. She advocates for the use of dialectical behavioral therapy to balance emotions and logic, promoting the extension of grace to oneself and others.
Memorable Moments:
02:36 Discussing the impact of trauma on relationships.
10:01 Struggled, found purpose in teaching, learned a lesson.
14:15 Witnessed miracles watching children with disabilities thrive.
18:05 Acknowledging past pain and seeking help.
25:30 The Anxiety bobblehead makes me seek help.
30:56 Concerned about culture lacking noble goals in life.
35:29 Believing and empathy are essential in storytelling.
41:21 Supporting brain health: tangible, straightforward actions.
45:20 Yearning for hugs now cherishes solitude.
52:35 Understanding the chemical side of mental health.
53:11 Focus on women's hormonal and thyroid issues.
01:03:13 Excited about holidays, art, family, life, facilitation.
01:03:57 The Proudest moment is being here, still fighting.
In each episode, Jeff and Eric will talk about what emotional intelligence, or understanding your emotions, can do for you in your daily and work life. For more information, contact Eric or Jeff at info@spiritofeq.com, or go to their website, Spirit of EQ.
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Transcripts
Hello, everyone, and welcome to the Spirit of EQ podcast. I'm Eric Pennington, and joining me is Jeff East. Hi, Jeff. How are you?
Jeff East [:Hi, Eric, and everyone out there.
Eric Pennington [:So today, we have a very special guest. Kat Parson, leadership expert, has so kindly consented and agreed to join us today. And I say it that way, Jeff, specifically, because, I met Kat by way of another one of our guests. Do you remember Jess Laflin. Did I pronounce her name?
Cat Perlson [:Laflin.
Eric Pennington [:Laflin. Thank you.
Jeff East [:I believe so. Yeah. Yeah.
Eric Pennington [:Yeah. Which was a wonderful show. We did that back last year sometime. Yeah. Or maybe it was this year because it was cold. Anyway, so I had reached out to Jess, and I said, hey. You know, you've got a pretty powerful story around overcoming trauma and things like that, and we're really trying to do some more episodes around that. And she said, well, let me think about it.
Eric Pennington [:So I'm kind of and I made it clear to her that, hey. If if this is not a fit, you don't feel, You know, you know, safe to really go there. I'm not gonna press because it really is kind of a vulnerable thing. So I'll wait. I'll wait. And she says, you know, The answer is no. But I know someone that could be awesome, and that is Kat. And we had a bought back and forth.
Eric Pennington [:We planned this. I think actually, we started really planning this back in June.
Cat Perlson [:Yes.
Eric Pennington [:Then Something happened and something else happened. So and boom. Here we are in November. Yes. And not the only reason that we wanted to have Kat on was to talk about trauma even though we're gonna go there today. She's actually got a lot of great insights about leadership. And I I I see a connection there. Right? Because one of the great, one of the worst masks that I think people wear, especially in corporate America, is that they're Fine.
Eric Pennington [:I'm okay. Right? No problem. I I've got this. And the reality is is That I'd probably say, am I being exaggerative? Maybe 95% of all people have some level of trauma in their background. But then Right now,
Jeff East [:I think it's more than than just people. I think businesses are in trauma. Oh,
Eric Pennington [:We could probably go there, Jeff. See, I love it, man. I just you you you you say it, and then it's there. And now we we I've
Jeff East [:I've had my good thoughts, so I'm just gonna sit here.
Eric Pennington [:No. No. See, you try to do that false modesty stuff. So, Kat, welcome to the show.
Cat Perlson [:Thank you so much. Really excited to be here today. Great.
Eric Pennington [:Great. So I'm a I wanna start there with trauma. I I'd like to hear a bit about The role that has played in your life, right, and how trauma in general impacts our ability to relate, 2 other people. And I know you're not a clinician. You're not gonna go into the clinical side of your your personal story, I thought was very powerful, As well as for our audience in how they're relating with people who have gone through that. So do you feel comfortable starting there? Sure. Yes. Alright.
Cat Perlson [:Yes. So when we had originally met, I had talked to you about how I think my whole life, I had snippets of trauma. And not Some huge traumatic event, but these little hills that you have to climb. So when I was very young, I was diagnosed with dyslexia. And I remember my 1st grade teacher, who was the reading specialist, who, for Protector will remain nameless.
Eric Pennington [:Well played.
Cat Perlson [:Said in front of me to my parents, You need to prepare for a very limited future
Jeff East [:Oh, boy.
Eric Pennington [:For her.
Cat Perlson [:And I think that that was my first experience with trauma. However, I have the Most amazing parents in the world. They are incredibly supportive. My mom was my advocate. She Would go to school and ask for the things that I need, and they would pay for the tutors, and they would make sure I was okay, and they constantly
Eric Pennington [:So I've gotta interrupt you.
Cat Perlson [:No. Go ahead.
Eric Pennington [:Mhmm. When you heard that
Cat Perlson [:Mhmm.
Eric Pennington [:And and that was what grade were you in again?
Cat Perlson [:I was in the 1st grade.
Eric Pennington [:1st grade. So a while back.
Cat Perlson [:Yeah.
Eric Pennington [:Do you do you remember what went through your mind when you heard that? I And did it have that impact then, or was it later?
Cat Perlson [:No. It had it later. I was a very Ornery child.
Eric Pennington [:Right. Right.
Cat Perlson [:So if you told me I couldn't do something, I would go watch me.
Eric Pennington [:Right. Yes.
Cat Perlson [:So I think I was one of these little kids that had just resiliency pumping through their their blood, but I I owe that to my parents. They allowed me to fail. They always had a growth mindset. They always looked at Failure as part of the process. Failure is not final. It's not fatal. It's Mhmm. Learning how not to do something is just is important as learning how to do something.
Eric Pennington [:Mhmm.
Cat Perlson [:So if I learned natural consequences very organically, And I I love my parents for how they raised me. Were they perfect? Absolutely not. My mother and father, to this day, were scared I was gonna grow and be a stand up comedian Because they're like, she is gonna tell all of the horrible stories about us. And now I do that in corporate America. But You're like You know?
Eric Pennington [:And I'm sorry, Jeff. This is a musical reference, but it's not for a band. I was a musician, and that's all I wanted to do. Yeah. And I remember after I've been married, like, 10 years, and it wasn't gonna be the thing I was gonna do with my life, I remember my mom, it must have been over the holidays, just kinda casually saying, well, You know, I was praying you would never make it. I remember I remember No. Well, thank you for that, mom. I I Appreciate it.
Cat Perlson [:And and my mother and father will have the same sentiment. They're just like, we know she's funny, but we only want her to be funny at home.
Eric Pennington [:Alright. Yeah.
Cat Perlson [:Not in front of anyone else. So that was my 1st taste of trauma. And I think from that, I developed high functioning anxiety. And I always wanted to be the best. I always had something to prove. I always needed that, and I was rewarded. So it was positively reinforced For my anxiety. So I became a straight a student.
Cat Perlson [:I I worked really hard. I did all of these things. I went To college. I got in. I got scholarships for academics for kids with neurodiversity. That's not heard of. Like, I looked at it As this is my mountain, this is my Sisyphean task. I'm gonna roll this rock up this hill, and it'll fall down.
Cat Perlson [:And and it's funny when it does. I still make dyslexic mistakes all the time. I for example, coming here, I went to 115 instead of 511 because my brain goes
Eric Pennington [:Yes. And for Audience, we are in
Cat Perlson [:511 Studios
Eric Pennington [:today. So there's some there's there's the connection. I'm sorry. I gotta do it again
Cat Perlson [:because when
Eric Pennington [:you were at when you Saying that it really resonated about the idea of performance sort of fueling and did did you find it as a fuel? Like, hey. If I do this, Mhmm. I'm gonna get that.
Cat Perlson [:Yes. And I became a wonderful pretender. Life became a show. And because you didn't want to let anyone know you were different. Because back then, the special ed classroom was in the basement, Like, in the corner next to the boiler room. And you were walking that Green Mile down to that classroom, and everyone knew. And then in the 2nd grade, a kid asked my 2nd grade teacher, why does Catherine my real name's Catherine, but I'm only called that when I'm in trouble. So why does Catherine leave the classroom every day? And my teacher Sure.
Cat Perlson [:Told him I had a disease that made it hard for me to learn.
Eric Pennington [:Oh, jeez.
Cat Perlson [:So I am this little 2nd grader with the plague On the playground, and no one wanted to play with me.
Eric Pennington [:Right. Because it was a disease.
Cat Perlson [:Because it was a disease. It's that my best friend, who I've known since the 1st day of kindergarten, Martin Garnierat. He played with me, and I got into this little group of these weird kids. And we we were weird. We were the theater Kids. We were the musicians. We were the empathetic children that didn't look at people who were differently. And and it was a really great, Fantastic core group of friends.
Cat Perlson [:And I learned my worth as a person didn't have to be assigned to this label. Mhmm. And I But I was always striving to be the best. I was always dedicated to making sure that no one knew about this Dirty little secret that I had that made me not worthy, that made me less than.
Eric Pennington [:Mhmm.
Cat Perlson [:And so I I picked a Cool. And I actually went to Otterbein University. It was called Otterbein College back then, but now Otterbein University. And I picked it because they honored individual education programs. And I went there, and that's an IEP. So kids who struggle, we get special care.
Eric Pennington [:Mhmm.
Cat Perlson [:And it's not like It's not like I'm not dyslexic anymore. I have great coping mechanisms. Yeah. And then when I was at school, I learned even more. I grew. I had fantastic teachers, you know, went off into the real world, had these amazing friends. Jess Laughlin and I met Our freshman year on the 3rd floor of Clements Hall, and I'm still fantastic friends with her and all of those girls. We have we have created a 20 year bond that is unlike anything else.
Cat Perlson [:And I struggle to figure out what I wanted to be when I grew up. And, you know, like, we we learn in when we study neuroscience, your frontal cortex, like, your decision making hub doesn't fully Fully developed till you're 25. And I don't know why we look at 18 year olds and say plan out the rest of your life because that sounds great. Or why we get married before 25. I have no idea because you're not done cooking. Like, everyone loves cookie dough. Right? Everybody loves it. Yeah.
Cat Perlson [:But it also gives you salmonella. Do not make Long term decisions with a cookie dough brain. Right? So I I struggled. I was this, You know, I was I wouldn't say I was a wayward or lost soul, but I was looking for that thing. And the thing I found was teaching. And I never wanted a kid to feel the way I did. And I I came to that because I was working An office that shall not be named down the street from here for the government. And, my boss at the time, I had Misspelled something in an email.
Cat Perlson [:And she goes, this is an ungodly simple task, Kat, and yet You made another mistake. And I went I'm at because I think everyone has that, no. I'm out. You just that was the end. I'm done. And that was my I'm done, and I needed to get out of there for my mental health. I couldn't be my most authentic self. I couldn't be This thing and I, we just got so tired of hiding it.
Cat Perlson [:So I made it my mission to become a teacher, to become a special education teacher, And make sure that no kid was ever defined by the 2 things that we can't do because there everyone in this room can't do something. Right?
Eric Pennington [:Mhmm.
Cat Perlson [:We all can't do something, but Does that determine your worth? No. And it's not that you can't. You just can't yet. We have to have a growth mindset.
Eric Pennington [:Or you know what? I and I what I've found as of late is that I choose not to. Mhmm. It's not my thing. Right? Yes. That that, to me, speaks kinda to the idea that I've got agency. I don't I I don't have to climb that mountain that you or 20,000,000 other people climbed if it's not my thing.
Cat Perlson [:Exactly. Exactly. Why do I have to be able to dunk a basket? What what part of my life does that serve me? You know, reading, that's kind of Important spelling.
Eric Pennington [:Right. Just some basic stuff.
Cat Perlson [:Some basic stuff. But I became a teacher, and I loved it. And I fell in love With kids on the spectrum. So autism spectrum disorder. Mhmm. Because the beauty of it was that there are So many things that they couldn't do, but there were these epic things they could. Like, I had a student, Completely nonverbal, but could look at a sheet of music and go to a piano and play it as if he had played it his whole entire life. That is a gift.
Cat Perlson [:So why are we defining people by what we they can't do?
Jeff East [:My wife for the rest of this week before she changes jobs works with adults with disabilities. And she has some people that she works with that are autistic, and she said the same thing. I'm gonna I'm I wanna share what my noble goal is. In in the our model of emotional intelligence, we have this thing called a noble goal, which is what defines Who you are and what's important. And my noble goal is to find the art that is at the core of someone.
Cat Perlson [:Oh, I love
Jeff East [:And that's what you're doing. So I I am totally on board with what you're saying because I think everybody, no matter what, has that
Eric Pennington [:Mhmm.
Jeff East [:Whatever you wanna call it, at their core.
Cat Perlson [:They have a light. We all can share a light. We all have a talent. We all have that art, the art at the core. I love that. I'm at That's
Eric Pennington [:what I think is is the Will be the height of history is the irony of the United States and that we had so much information At our disposal that would make what you said to be, like, supported. Mhmm. Yet we went the other way.
Cat Perlson [:Yeah.
Eric Pennington [:I mean, it is the height of irony. I mean, because if we were in Roman times Mhmm. Someone could probably say, well, there was no There was no information, and there was no way to get that information blah blah blah. But today, we have it in lightning speed, but we we go the other way Mhmm. To your point.
Cat Perlson [:So It's No. No. I think that that's perfect because when I entered into special ed, the The die the diagnosis was 1 in 49. No. Sorry. It was 1 in 4 let me do that again. So when I first went into special education for students on the spectrum, it was 1 in 449. And I was like, oh, this is amazing.
Cat Perlson [:Like, they need such such specialized training. And to watch a young child Go through their entire career not being able to vocalize their wants and their needs, but to learn sign language and to to use an assistive technology device Or to even use pictures to one day hear them say a word. You I got to watch miracles happen. I I got to watch Miracles happen every single day, and I did that for 11 years until I got hurt. And When as my career changed, the the frequency of the diagnosis continued to grow. And the kids that I was working with that diagnosis didn't match what was going on, and they became incredibly violent. And we would try to help, and then I would start to go to classes to learn how to protect myself. And, You know, I have broken fingers and safety scissor scars on my on my hands from being stabbed, been punched in the face more times than I care To remember.
Cat Perlson [:And then one day, it just got so bad, and I was Punched in the face so hard that I got a retinal tear, and I had to get surgery to reattach my retina. And I was thrown into a door So hard that I couldn't feel the right side of my body, and I didn't realize what had happened To me, I guess the art had been destroyed. It was the thing that made me me, this thing that I was So good at, the best at became the weapon for my destruction, And I didn't wanna admit it. So I got up. I would do the things. I would
Eric Pennington [:I
Cat Perlson [:would I would say I was okay. I would say I was fine, and I didn't realize that I had post traumatic stress disorder, and some other things happened in life, and I was assaulted. And it's just, like, all of these traumas, and I didn't wanna admit it. I couldn't say it out loud. I could not say it out loud, and I did all of the things that Women and men, because it happens to both
Eric Pennington [:Mhmm.
Cat Perlson [:Say, it was my fault. It was my fault. This is my fault. I did this. It was my fault. It wasn't my fault. It was something that happened to me, but because I think that little girl That said, I can I can watch me? That little girl was driving that bus because she desperately wanted, yet again, to have something that knocked her down in life to be able To be used as a catalyst to drive her forward, but the monster that lived inside of me, The monster that made me feel less than, that made me anxious, that made me feel like I was worthless, that made me feel like I didn't matter, That made me feel like I was nothing drove the bus for quite some time. And I I never wanted to take my own life, but I understand why people do.
Cat Perlson [:I understand that sleeping is the only time that you don't feel. And I understand being a corpse walking around. And I understand not experiencing joy and pain and never being enough and just trying to do the next right thing. And it was hard, but I can do hard things.
Eric Pennington [:Mhmm.
Cat Perlson [:And the moment I knew That I understood what someone felt like when they are in so much pain that they no longer wanna be here was the day I I asked for help. So I did the right thing, and I got the help that I needed. And I Got a therapist, and I got a psychiatrist, and I got Lexapro, which is the most amazing thing that's ever happened to me in life. And I did the work. I did the hard things. Now while while that was happening, I made people's lives miserable, and I don't wanna I don't Want to not acknowledge the trauma or the hurt that I caused other people while I was hurt because I do think hurt people hurt people. And I I will forever regret some of the decisions that I made that hurt the people that I love, and I will every day Make a commitment to God and make a commitment to my family and make a commitment to my friends that I will not ever go down that rabbit hole again. So now I am aware so much more Of my feelings and my response, which is, like, that first step of emotional intelligence is becoming self aware.
Cat Perlson [:Mhmm. And I had to go, you know what? You're you're you're not okay. You're not fine.
Eric Pennington [:It's interesting to me, Kat. And maybe interesting is probably too light of a word Because I know oftentimes in our culture, at least from my perspective, is that we are so outcome oriented As in, well, look what you did, and look how where you're at, and look what you have. Right? And I've always been more fascinated by When the lights are off, the cameras have stopped rolling. And you know tomorrow morning, you're gonna get up at 5 o'clock because you need to get into the gym. Mhmm. And you don't wanna get out. Mhmm. And you don't wanna lift the weights.
Eric Pennington [:You don't and I'm using the exercise as the analogy, but you talked about doing the work. I can only imagine how difficult it was to raise your hand to say, I need help. Can you talk about that a little bit?
Cat Perlson [:Yeah. I I I love my parents, and, we have a family friends who Lost a child to suicide.
Eric Pennington [:Mhmm.
Cat Perlson [:And I couldn't do it to my parents. I just couldn't. Mhmm. I absolutely could not. I love my mom and dad. I love my brother, and I couldn't I couldn't imagine the amount of pain that I was feeling would be nothing to what they would feel if they thought I was k. So I had to have that really tough conversation and, you know, like, nothing is worse than being like, hey, mom. Hey, dad.
Cat Perlson [:So I'm not alright. And these are the things that are going through my brain. And then I I went to a facility in Cincinnati, Ohio, and I do not mean to make light of this, but I sat in the waiting room and, you know, like, rehashing your trauma Is is basically taking a wound that has healed, and you take the knife in there and you go Stranger. And every time and I've learned through therapy that that's not what this is. This is not rehashing my trauma. This is helping somebody who might be going through this and thinking Oh
Eric Pennington [:my gosh. And and, Kat, I yeah. I Just as a an answer there, I always think about and Jeff as well. So what would our audience? Who could potentially be out there in our audience that are that are thinking unfortunately, maybe thinking, well Yeah. Today would be The right day. Or It's your point.
Jeff East [:I was I believe that what you're talking about and what Eric was mentioning is Our stories are the most helpful thing we can have to help someone Yes. Or the most powerful thing.
Eric Pennington [:Mhmm.
Cat Perlson [:Because when we share, they know they're not alone.
Eric Pennington [:Exactly.
Cat Perlson [:And that's like Yeah. And and I I do it all the time in my professional life, and And my parents again, my mom and dad are always scared. They're like, what if somebody uses this against you? And I say that says a lot more about them Then it does about me. Because if you weaponize trauma or are you if you weaponize somebody's Courage to be vulnerable with you. We are gonna have a whole another conversation.
Eric Pennington [:And you know what? I've taken the approach, And maybe it's because of the experience of being as long on the road as I have been, I did say that, didn't I, Is that I've already burned the ships in the harbor. So if you wanna go ahead and fire away, you go right ahead because I I'm no longer banking on these this Yeah. Quo thing that we have.
Jeff East [:This is my story. I'm standing by. Yeah. I mean, that's just that's what it is. Yeah.
Cat Perlson [:Well, and it's hard because we're taught To be ashamed of. And that one of my favorite favorite psychologist, Brene Brown, and I'm sure you guys talk about
Eric Pennington [:Her all
Cat Perlson [:the time, the gospel according to Brene. You know, I That's good. Yeah. I I read all of her books, and I love the Atlas of the Heart because it tells us where we go when we feel things. And when we feel shame, like, our our visceral body, our our genetics change. Our not genetics. Like, our neurological pathways change. Our our Feeling like I I will tell you right now, telling that story to to 2 people who I know have created a psychologically safe experience for so many people to come and share, I was sweaty.
Cat Perlson [:Like, I I'm very sweaty right now, and it's but it's scary. Like but If I feel scared, that means I'm going to be brave because you cannot feel you cannot be brave without first being scared.
Eric Pennington [:Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. That's the You know? The great irony of our culture.
Jeff East [:Right? I wanna be brave.
Cat Perlson [:I wanna be brave.
Eric Pennington [:I want the fear of heart. Exactly. That's right.
Cat Perlson [:So I I do this scary thing. I stand up in front of People in a professional setting. And I share my neurospiciness. I say, I have anxiety. I have crippling anxiety that is controlled Every day by 20 milligrams of Lexapro. I have horrific depression in which that monster that Scratches at the subfloor of my brain brain that tells me I am worthless is fueled by post traumatic stress disorder, which was not my choice.
Jeff East [:I I use Zoloft
Eric Pennington [:Zoloft. For my anxiety. It's And one thing I'm
Cat Perlson [:wondering is you
Eric Pennington [:just you just prompted this for me. And and I And for our audience as well, this is not me saying that here's an alternative therapy because I did not learn this from a therapist. It's it's based on what I did for my own personal work. Is that now I no longer run from my monsters and demons. I invite them to sit down
Cat Perlson [:Mhmm.
Eric Pennington [:And tell me. Exactly. And what I've found is that the ferociousness that they carry in in the very front side of that Begins to wane.
Cat Perlson [:Mhmm.
Eric Pennington [:Right? And then I have the opportunity to say, you can go now.
Cat Perlson [:Hey. And I love that. I have a very good Friend, who refers to different responses as bobbleheads on a shelf.
Eric Pennington [:Mhmm.
Cat Perlson [:And My anxiety bobblehead does keep me safe. It does keep me out of bad relationships. It does have A reason to be listened to, but it can't be the only bobblehead I take off of the shelf. Yeah. And I and by no means, I am not A mental health professional by any stretch of the imagination, you know, long time user, but not a by no means am I a mental health professional. But I do know That I need my medicine, and I need talk therapy. And I am proof that when knocking on the door, you can turn around And find the light someplace else. And you have to be able to find the light.
Eric Pennington [:Yeah.
Cat Perlson [:And sometimes you do need to sit in the dark with your monsters Just and to understand them and to understand why why is the depression monster there? Well, it does keep me safe sometimes. It does it does allow me to feel things, and I need to Feel things. I need to be true to the emotion so I don't pretend again. So I don't so I'm not this little girl that that goes watch me. Like, no. I'm allowed to be hurt, and my feelings are valid.
Eric Pennington [:I love your your vulnerability, Kat, because And, Jeff, you and I, and past guests, and even in some of our conversations, we're really trying to do, at whatever level we can, is to dispel this awful myth That, we have it all synced and situated. Right?
Jeff East [:I mean, everything that we've talked about is because we've been there.
Eric Pennington [:Right. And I and I say that, Cabb, because, You know, I think back to my corporate career. Mhmm. I paid for all my sins, and then they let me go. Just so you know that. There were a lot of sins. I'm just telling you right now. Right? So and I remember feeling like, Well, how do I look? And, how did I sound? And okay.
Eric Pennington [:I've gotta I no. I can't I can't let them see that, and they'll I wonder if they knew that this and and and then you start to realize That, you know, every single person you're locking eyes with has something. And If you're wise, you'll want to draw near to those that are willing Mhmm. To let you see it. And I don't mean see Things that are so personal that it's just not your place to see, but enough vulnerability to go, I'm not gonna pretend. Mhmm. Right? Because I think when we stop pretending, then freedom comes knocking on our door because And then, again, all this other stuff. Mhmm.
Eric Pennington [:Because if we go through our lives with this idea that somehow, the measure of a successful life is, how well I was able to portray something to the world. It's empty. Mhmm. I mean, it's much more inspiring. And and I and I have to say this. In the United Thanks. I'm gonna use just the United States because that's my only reference point. So for those in the audience in India, in the UK, and wherever, I you you could probably ask every single person, do you like a good mystery, like a movie, you know, where the plot's kinda like you're not sure what's gonna happen next? You'll get people that will be like, yeah.
Eric Pennington [:Yeah. Like that 1 movie, and never ever once. Yeah. Did you see that movie? Yeah. You could get that discussion going. And then when you say, well, how about in your own life? Crickets. Mhmm. So how does that work? I wanna see it, and I love it, and it gets it gets all my I mean, things are flowing, But when I encountered, I recoil and want safety, certainty, and predictability.
Eric Pennington [:That's a big problem.
Cat Perlson [:Well and I think it comes. I love that you say safety, security, and predictability. Like, when we think back to Maslow's hierarchy of needs Mhmm.
Eric Pennington [:Like,
Cat Perlson [:the first thing that we need is safety.
Jeff East [:Mhmm.
Cat Perlson [:So when we don't feel safe, nothing else can get done. Absolutely nothing else can get done. And I think in the world of corporate America, I'm very blessed To work in a psychologically safe environment. I am very blessed to work in a place where we can have open and honest conversations, where feedback is a gift. It's not I'm in trouble where nobody nobody ever feels like they are not enough, that it is okay. And this is my favorite thing that my boss has ever said to me is, Kat, it is okay not to be okay.
Eric Pennington [:Yeah. The very good statement. And I and I would Point out cat just so that you and the audience, Jeff, understand. There's reasonable levels of safety, reasonable levels of predictability, all of that. Right? Where I go is if you're moving towards safety as the thing
Cat Perlson [:Mhmm.
Eric Pennington [:You will inhibit your ability to go out and to be that.
Jeff East [:It's it's like every great discovery, every explorer, If they would have stayed safe
Cat Perlson [:Mhmm.
Jeff East [:Nothing would have been discovered.
Eric Pennington [:And it's absolutely okay. I wanna make sure this is noted. Right? If I don't feel comfortable going on that journey Mhmm. And I raise my hand and say, Jeff and Cat, I I just don't feel comfortable, My hope is that you're gonna say, that's okay. Yeah. Mhmm. We'll we'll figure something out.
Cat Perlson [:Very much.
Eric Pennington [:Right? Where I get concerned about where we're at as a culture, right, is Is is this idea that and I I had this conversation with a group this morning, is that the absence of a noble goal will leave you a prisoner of the Ups and downs and the ups and downs and the ups and downs of life. And the danger in that is is that there is a limited time offer called life. Right. And, Jeff, I think you would really appreciate it because Jeff, the noble goal, that if I had to say that thing is Jeff's thing is the noble goal. I use the illustration that those people who have the noble goal typically are able to lead a transcendent life.
Cat Perlson [:Very much so.
Eric Pennington [:They still experience this, the ups, the downs, the ups and downs, happy, sad, disappointment, distraction, all that stuff. But their north star, their their noble goal keeps them looking forward. Mhmm. And that's where I wanted to go with that, Is that are you moving forward? Because if your embrace of safety is holding you back, there's a problem.
Cat Perlson [:And I personally think my my putting myself in a box, doing what little Katherine didn't wanna do, Being put in a box is what I did to myself.
Eric Pennington [:It's
Cat Perlson [:like you are just this, and you will never be anything more than this. And now the thing that you were good at the The only thing in life you're good at that you can't do anymore, and I still can because I did the scariest thing ever. I left Teaching. I had done it for 11 years. I left, you know, what, my $50,000 in student loans that just kicked in. Let's talk about anxiety. Right? You're like, yay. Now I'm not doing that, but I am.
Cat Perlson [:I'm still finding the in people. I'm still finding the light, and I'm allowing adults I'm allowing them to heal. I'm I'm giving them a place where they can actually find joy and know that they're never going to ever work in a psychologically Unsafe environment, again, that their trauma is valid, that that their feelings are valid, that they are allowed to feel the way that they that That they do. And have you ever had somebody ever giving you, like, I'm sorry you feel that way? Has anyone ever had that?
Eric Pennington [:Oh, never.
Cat Perlson [:And I No. No. In about 5 minutes, you're gonna be real sorry I feel that way. Like, my team and I get to teach people How to have an authentic apology. Say, I am sorry. What I did caused you to feel that way. It is not my intent, but it still did, and your feelings are valid. How can we chart a pathway forward? How can we make sure that we are creating a culture and a community in which We are looking at people at their most micro level, and that's their art.
Cat Perlson [:That's their heart. That's their light. Like, that's that thing. And we cannot be the people who diminish, who Diffuse and who dim humanity. Because that that thing, those are our superpowers. Those are the things that make us special. My trauma, My dyslexia, my neurospiciness is my superpower. It makes me who I am.
Cat Perlson [:It makes me empathetic. It makes me kind. It makes me understanding, and it allows me to understand that there's not a single person on this planet, and I truly do believe this, that that wakes up and And goes, you wanna know what I wanna do to make people miserable?
Jeff East [:Yeah.
Cat Perlson [:I don't think that there is a person out there. I truly do not. And if I can be a messenger of hope if I can be the person that says, you know, bad things happen, but we can have traumatic growth. So my therapy that I have done in the past is dialectical behavioral therapy, and it's all talk therapy.
Eric Pennington [:Mhmm. And
Cat Perlson [:it's understanding that we Have to live in the wise mind, where we have a logic brain and we have our emotional brain, and they have to live in a wise mind. So I'm allowed to have an emotion, but, Logically, how am I going to respond? So I can sit we call it sitting in the suck. We can sit and suck. We can sit in the dark for a little bit, But I can't stay there or else that's what fuels my depression monster.
Eric Pennington [:And
Cat Perlson [:that's what feeds them to make them bigger. And And I can't do that. I'm allowed to sit in it. I'm allowed to sit with him and go, man, I made a mistake, or I don't wanna do the laundry. But I can't sit there too long or else Yeah. Then he starts driving the bus again. Yeah. So it's this balancing act of living in that wise mind.
Eric Pennington [:Well, the one thing, and I I am gonna pivot because I wanna touch on something, related to the corporate world. But, I I I think, like, what you're saying, makes sense on a lot of levels. And I think And and, you know, you mentioned Brene Brown, and Jeff has heard this many times about my referencing to you can really only be empathetic to other people When you are listening to their story and you believe them. Mhmm. And I love how she qualifies it with and the hard part is the believing. Because, Kat, as you tell your story, as I tell some of mine and Jeff says something from his, There could be people out there who goes, I disagree with it. I disagree with that. I disagree.
Eric Pennington [:People shouldn't be on any type of medication Mhmm. Or, You know, Eric, that's not okay for you to say your sins. You didn't sin and and because it conflicts with their already perceived reality. And this comes back to that idea about doing the work. I think as a culture, we need to get to the gym and start picking up some weights. Yeah. I mean, we really do because because our muscles have atrophied. Mhmm.
Eric Pennington [:And I'm thankful for you and for your work Group your team that they have you because not all I won't say a lot. I don't know that. I would imagine that it's not the norm to be in an environment where that kind of approach is taken to leadership. I hope that happens more. But let me pivot because I'm thinking of myself
Cat Perlson [:It's my team's favorite word, pivot.
Eric Pennington [:Okay. Because, we're gonna have to do a part 2. I just know what I can feel I
Jeff East [:can feel
Eric Pennington [:it in my core. So here's here's what I'd like to ask you about. Obviously, you've got an internal look that recognizes the the challenges, the successes of managing your mental health. And I've been trying I've been moving my language courtesy assignment, Cynic, to mental fitness. So you've been doing that. Mhmm. So Tell me a little bit about the challenges that you're seeing in the corporate world, just by observation. Not not so much in your team and what you've Todd or what that kind of thing.
Eric Pennington [:But what are you seeing out there? How are we doing meant with mental fitness in in the corporate world?
Cat Perlson [:Well, I'd like I you know, In my personal experience, I think my my company is amazing.
Eric Pennington [:Yeah.
Cat Perlson [:But I do now now that I've transitioned to this role We're I'm not, you know, human tissue. And I I but I I'm working with adults. My friends We're having conversations about it, and I am seeing that there is a shift.
Eric Pennington [:Mhmm.
Cat Perlson [:There is a huge shift In cultures of companies. And I think it and and I know I'm gonna get backlash for this, but it's because I I truly do think it's because of the millennials.
Eric Pennington [:Because they're
Cat Perlson [:like, if you're mean to us, we're out. You know? Like, if you
Jeff East [:they go.
Cat Perlson [:Exactly. Exactly.
Eric Pennington [:A minute ago.
Cat Perlson [:I I think There is a shift in understanding because now we're talking about mental fitness. Right? We're talking about mental health. We're not acknowledging as as a four letter word we don't talk about.
Eric Pennington [:Right.
Cat Perlson [:It is a we have made such Scientific advancements, such psychological advancements that we are understanding that not only is our brain the 3rd largest organ in our body, That it needs to be cared for. It needs to be worked out. It knee it's going to have good days. It's going to have bad days. It's going to get cuts. It's going to have reactions.
Eric Pennington [:Yeah.
Cat Perlson [:And I like how you use the atrophy. Like, we have to remember that empathy is a learned skill.
Jeff East [:And our brain is not only the 3rd largest. It's the most complicated. And the more complicated something is, The more it needs Mhmm. Fine tuned.
Cat Perlson [:Exactly. And, there's a great book called The Brain That Changes Itself. And I became obsessed with this book when I was, in graduate Cool. Because it was all about neuroplasticity
Eric Pennington [:Uh-huh.
Cat Perlson [:And the ability to learn new skills and ignite other parts of our brain that haven't been used. And it's fantastic because that gives us Hope. Like, think think of the uncharted territories that we have, and the human body is in fact our brain. There's so much we don't know about it. And there's so many And this is this is what the problem that I have in a TikTok world. We cannot Explain mental health and mental fitness in a 32nd video that you listen to music over. That it is a it is a very complex Beast. But if that can be the catalyst to why you get help, if that little That little nugget hits something in your brain that goes, okay.
Cat Perlson [:Well, I wanna go and do this now. I need to learn learn about it, but we can't We cannot push down the gravity of what this is. Our brain is so complex. It stress affects it. Water affects it. Food affects it. Sleep affects it.
Eric Pennington [:And you know what, Kat? I I love how you're you're you're because as we've said on our show before, You know, the the idea of 2 things can be true at the same time. The brain is tremendously complex, but the things you just rattled off Are not. This sleep is not complex. I mean, if you said to me, Eric, you know what? If you get 7, 8 hours of sleep a night Consistently, that's doing your brain good. Mhmm. So what would be what would be complex about that? Oh, you mean the part where it's 10 o'clock. I need to lay my head on the pillow, close my eyes, and then I'll get up at 6 o'clock. Yeah.
Eric Pennington [: ved. It's the same brain from: Eric Pennington [:I'm joking. Nobody in your audience. Do not quote me. Do not write me. I I do not mean. I just have issues with the
Jeff East [:We love Skynet.
Eric Pennington [:But my point is, Kat, is This idea of it's it's not a complex thing to care for This wonderfully complex thing we call our brain.
Jeff East [:Hey, Eric. When I I was thinking about what Kat was saying and everything, but Those things that you talk about, sleep and and diet and things like that, those we have a lot of control over. Yeah. But the one thing that is, I think, the hardest For us to help our brain with is what we see and what we hear because it's constant. Mhmm. And how do we filter that?
Cat Perlson [:I I have no answer whatsoever. I'm a very, I'm I am not an observer. I'm an absorber. So I I I feel things very intensely.
Eric Pennington [:I think we have another empath in the room. I
Cat Perlson [:I I feel things very intensely, and I I will tell you there I don't watch the news anymore because it was just making me so sad. And I because I just I look at the injustice. I look at the sadness of the world, and I'm like, well, why can't we fix it? Because it's not It's not simple. It's not water and food. It's it's it's love and hope. And how do you fix Love and hope. And how do you give that, and how do you let people know that they're cared for, but at the same time, you're scared? Like, It's scary. We we all went through a joint trauma.
Cat Perlson [:The world did. We we lost people. And this is, Again, nobody sent me Nastygrams, but people died, and and we lost community. We we went into our homes, and we couldn't do the things that we that we did before. We couldn't go to the movies. We couldn't Have holidays with our families. That that is something we need to ignore.
Jeff East [:Stability.
Cat Perlson [:We lost stability. We lost safety. And then Then when you lose safety and fear is fed like, remember when I said if somebody weaponizes trauma
Eric Pennington [:Yeah.
Cat Perlson [:They're just special place?
Eric Pennington [:Mhmm.
Cat Perlson [:I feel like sometimes right now and this is just a very personal feeling. People are weaponizing trauma, and we don't know how to heal from that. We we all went through a joint trauma, and it took us a long time to get to this place, and it's gonna take us a long time to get out of it. And but we have to validate people and their feelings. It was very lonely for me. My family validates that. You know, my friends validate that. For some people, it was very helpful for them.
Eric Pennington [:I'm I'm
Jeff East [:very introverted.
Eric Pennington [:Yeah. I'm going
Jeff East [:Yeah. I like this.
Cat Perlson [:So my my really good friend, Eric and my boyfriend, Wes, are are classic introverts, And they're like, we were born for this day. We were born for this day.
Eric Pennington [:Finally. We get a chance.
Cat Perlson [:Yeah. Exactly. Whereas I'm sitting there going
Jeff East [:Yeah. My wife is very extroverted. So
Cat Perlson [:And I'm a hugger. Like, I'm the Olaf of humans. I love a good warm hug, and It was painful, like, to not be able to hug people and to not to do those things that fill my cup. But also from it, I learned a very valuable lesson of how to be alone, and I don't think I ever knew how to do that. So now I know how to fill my cup by myself. I love to read, and I love to organize, and and spending time with my 2 wonderful dogs. Like, those are those things that fill my cup, and we we have to acknowledge the growth as As a society that came from that, but it's so hard when all we hear is negative negative negative negative negative negative negative negative.
Eric Pennington [: hat somehow what is happening: Cat Perlson [:Mhmm.
Eric Pennington [:Right? I don't have control over Israel and The Gaza Strip. I I don't. I I I can have an opinion on some things that maybe look this way and my opinion's over here. But at the end of the day, anytime I've ever tried to tackle something I had no control over, I typically, it ended in frustration. Mhmm. And it robbed me. It it It harmed me. Right? But I think that I don't know.
Eric Pennington [:I I I guess I come back to the work again.
Cat Perlson [:Mhmm.
Eric Pennington [:Alright? I I just I wonder what would happen if if and they're not to follow because I drew that scenario of of the best version. But if if people put that effort in, I wonder if we would be as prone to digesting all of the negative stuff. You know what I mean?
Cat Perlson [:I I wonder that a lot, you know, but it it's hard. It's hard. Most people don't wanna admit that they have to do the work because the work is hard. But, you know, to quote another great book, we can all do hard things. Like, we can do the hard thing.
Eric Pennington [:Mhmm. You know,
Cat Perlson [:there are all of these fantastic sayings, but we have to actually put it into practice.
Eric Pennington [:We have
Cat Perlson [:to do it. Ultimately. Yeah. And and I love the mental fitness Like, outlook on it. Because there are days you're gonna go to the gym and you're gonna have the best workout ever. And there are days that you are gonna eat the healthiest meals, and there are the days that your anxiety friend doesn't keep you up at night. But then there are days that that happens.
Jeff East [:You're gonna be at White So Yeah.
Eric Pennington [:And you know what?
Cat Perlson [:And there are the days that you just want some chicky nuggies, and you're gonna eat those. Right?
Eric Pennington [:So, Kat. Alright. So this morning. Okay. Alright. So, we had this little thing called time change, whatever. I don't know if that's the official name for it, of which If any of you in congress are listening, why not just can we put an end to this? Yeah.
Jeff East [:Follow Indiana and Arizona. Or something.
Eric Pennington [:So, I'm I'm getting to bed at I don't know. It was probably about 10 o'clock, and my typical wake up time is 6. So I'm thinking, okay. I'm gonna be great. Well, It's 5 AM. My body thinks it's 6 AM.
Cat Perlson [:Yeah.
Eric Pennington [:So I'm debating. Do I get up, or do I push through to try to get more Sweet. Now you gotta get up. So I'm up earlier than I anticipated, and today is the day when I'm I'm giving my exercise secrets away. I'm working on chest and back. Mhmm. And I'm kinda dragging because this time change stuff is real. Right? And I I gotta tell you, I didn't wanna increase the weight.
Eric Pennington [:I didn't really dig the 3 sets. And, you know, I would have preferred I got some time. Why don't I go and lay back down? Right? And it's not a hooray for Eric. You push through. But you're right. Hard things should not be avoided. They will reward us. Mhmm.
Eric Pennington [:They will reward us.
Cat Perlson [:But it's
Jeff East [:also Can I tell you one thing about the time change? My understanding is that was done to give farmers more daylight.
Eric Pennington [:Yes. I remember that. Tractors have headlights.
Jeff East [:I grew up on a farm. Okay.
Eric Pennington [:So any of the congresspeople out there, if you would like Some, insight on this Jeff East. That's the man that thought that. That sounds like cat girl.
Cat Perlson [:No. No. But you also have to give yourself grace that if you didn't push through.
Eric Pennington [:Yeah. Exactly.
Cat Perlson [:Okay because you can have a really great workout one day, and I really it can work out another.
Eric Pennington [:This is that's great. I'm so glad you said that because tomorrow, The only time my son can meet is Uber early tomorrow. Yeah. So you know what? I might not get to the gym. Mhmm. And you know what? To your point.
Cat Perlson [:That's okay. That's absolutely okay because it's all about that wheel of control.
Eric Pennington [:But could you imagine? Could you imagine? What if I told my son? You know, no. We can't we can't get together for breakfast because, you know, I've gotta I gotta work out and then I've got this. Then to me, that's like a slippery slope of It's kinda communicating. That's more important to me Yeah. Than you. Cat's
Jeff East [:in the cradle.
Eric Pennington [:Yeah. You did it, Jeff. I made some cool reference. Alright. Okay. So, Kat. Yeah. This has been great.
Eric Pennington [:I just love it. I'm so glad you're here. Thank you. The next thing I wanted to ask you about, if I can get my notes together here, what are you doing As it relates to mental fitness. Now I know you you talked about, the the wonderful effects of of that drug. You talked about therapy. But let's talk about the things that aren't necessarily at at that level. Mhmm.
Eric Pennington [:I'm just talking, like, day to day. I mean, that kinda
Cat Perlson [:it's interesting that you asked that because I feel, honestly, for the last probably about month to month and a half, my depression is horrific. Sorry. I'm collecting my thoughts. Yeah. So my girlfriends and I, we go to a cabin in the In the fall, my college girlfriends and I. So Jess and myself, and there was a group there was a group of 8 of us. We're very close, and this time, only 5 could come. And I was just sharing with them, you know, I wasn't feeling myself.
Cat Perlson [:And we're talking, and then in a text Shane, later. I was saying, alright. I'm noticing some symptoms. Like, I'm getting super fatigued. I'm I have a I have mind fog. Okay. My my life is standing up in front of people and talking. And in front of a large group of people, I forgot my words.
Cat Perlson [:And I said, I am so sorry. I'm going to the one thing that as a professional facilitator, you should never do, and I'm gonna turn my back and look at the PowerPoint. And that was embarrassing. So I was seeing all of these signs of of my fitness struggling.
Eric Pennington [:Mhmm.
Cat Perlson [:And I think it is Important to understand that there is a chemical side to your mental health. Mhmm. That just As your contact lenses cannot meet your eye's prescription, your current current support, your current chemical support Might not be doing what's right for you. And as women, we go through tons of hormonal changes that can affect that. And I do think, at this point in time, That is what's happening to me. I do not think it I'm I have everything in the world to be excited about. And so I I I've I've made myself a doctor's appointment.
Eric Pennington [:Oh, and and, Kat, I'm so sorry. I'm you know, for those of you who are watching a video of us, you'd see my I because In in a future show, we we wanna have on a a, a physician specifically focusing on women's needs as it relates to this hormonal thing. I'm so glad you brought that up because I think one of the and I have some very pointed opinions about the traditional medical, approach. Allopathic. Is that the term for the traditional medical community? Because I think Women have been done such a disservice, and they have been dismissed on so many levels when it comes to thyroid issues. And the connection and I get it. Pfizer probably is not interested in a research study on this, but there is there is evidence out there that there is a connection to thyroid And the way that our brain operates. Hey, Mitch.
Eric Pennington [:So I am I mean, you know, if we don't find this physician, we'll have cat back can't do a show to talk about it just as lay lay person
Cat Perlson [:at 2:30. Friday at 2:30. I have my whole list of my And I even
Eric Pennington [:But do you what do you think about it? I mean, I because Oh, totally.
Cat Perlson [:Totally. Totally. Totally. I I just actually I wanted to go see The Taylor Swift concert in theaters because
Eric Pennington [:Okay. Right. You know,
Cat Perlson [:I was like, I can't afford to spend I I wanted to. I so wanted to see Taylor Swift. But I went To the theater, and I was with a a really good friend, one of my best friends on the planet, and 2 of her good friends. And one of them was sharing her journey With, with her thyroid issues. And she was explaining all of it to me, and she was the one that really got me going. And I was like, wait a second. Same's East. I'm feeling tired, irritable.
Cat Perlson [:Like, I love my boyfriend, but there are times where I'm just like, I wanna kill you, and I don't know why. It's it's like He breathed wrong, and that's that's not okay. Or I'm feeling a lack of motivation at work, or I'm feeling Like, I don't wanna get out of bed. And so I'm very much like, is it is it depression or is it something else? And I'm also noticing noticing, like, changes in my body And changes in in my my hair. You know? Like, it it's it's thinner and it's coarser. So and to me, that's and My mom is a microbiologist. So I called her, and she was like, yes. This sounds like it.
Cat Perlson [:Do you want me to go with you and advocate? And I you wanna know what? Yeah. I I do. I'm a 39 year old woman, and I want my mom.
Eric Pennington [:No. But you know what, though? Oh my And you know what? We got to I I maybe it's not the Total reason we got here, and I'm speaking from experience with my wife. Yeah. The amount of dismissive, you're just Yeah. You you you you're just stressed right now. Yeah. You no. No.
Eric Pennington [:No. No. And and it's almost like Mhmm. No. Don't. You you just need to go home. You had a Watch a watch a Netflix special.
Cat Perlson [:Yeah. And I
Eric Pennington [:and I and I know I'm exaggerating.
Jeff East [:The Hallmark Channel will help.
Cat Perlson [:Well, I do love me a Hallmark.
Eric Pennington [:And I'm over exaggerating this, but it is I don't think that I think women are kind of, to a degree, raising their hand saying, Is anybody gonna take this seriously, or or is it gonna continually be this, well, it's not really that. It's not really that.
Cat Perlson [:Well and I have a I have a A really great girlfriend who just has found out that she has ADHD, and she's 39 years old. Can you imagine Can you imagine the mental load that you had a something that could be helped, But you weren't taken seriously because when we were younger, ADHD studies were not done in females. They were only done in males. So we we have manifested These symptoms in different ways, and we have been rewarded for our coping mechanisms.
Eric Pennington [:Yeah.
Cat Perlson [:Oh, they can do it all. Oh, wow. She's a great multitasker. No. I just have So much anxiety that if I don't multitask, I'm not gonna be seen as successful. Yeah. And now now that And, Sheena, we're chatting about this. Now that our anxiety is under control, I realized there are other things that are wrong with me.
Cat Perlson [:And I'm just, like, slowly going, okay. Well, now I have to am I morning? Did I do something wrong? Did I not ask the right questions? But
Eric Pennington [:Sorry, Kat. If my my my Sign comes across as as a communicating to what you're saying because it's not it's just it is such, because I I think about my own medical journey in in general, and and I go, Had a conversation with a physician who basically told me that it was gonna be this or this. And if I decided not to do what they recommend, we were gonna have a hard conversation. And I'm I'm typically I reserve my wrath for when I really need it. Mhmm. So I have a perception people will go, he's such a nice guy. He's so kind. They don't realize that what a beast does live inside of me.
Eric Pennington [:Right? And I told my wife, I said, They don't realize how short that conversation is gonna be, and it's not gonna be hard. It's not gonna be hard at all. And and I'm thinking, How do we get here? Right? That you in in this case, with females who are dealing with thyroid issues, for example, have got to scream and kick and Shout and to get them to pay attention. And if everything was a pathway for the traditional, it's like, come on. If you guys are the smartest people in the room, shouldn't you be more curious? I mean, because that's kind of the pathway to learning. Right?
Cat Perlson [:Yeah. It is, and it's hard. And I think that there's so much involved. There's chemistry. Like, there is chemistry in your body.
Jeff East [:We're
Cat Perlson [:we're this beautiful Concoction of chemicals and and hormones and, like, our bodies are so complex, but also, again, so simple. And not all problems can be solved with okay. Well, it's this. Sometimes it's multifaceted. So Yeah. We have to and the way that I appreciate just society right now as we're starting to really look at symptoms. And And we're not making we're not jumping to conclusions. We're like, okay.
Cat Perlson [:Well, what are we checking out of this box? You know that your anxiety is under control. And so I keep on telling myself that, Kat, You know your anxiety is under control. These other things are not. So in that control circle, what about life can I control? Can control my anxiety, so I know that I am not overreacting.
Eric Pennington [:Well, I'm gonna
Jeff East [:if you say that my anxiety is over control, is it?
Cat Perlson [:Yeah. Oh, and then my I remember the 1st time that my anxiety was under control, and I was having anxiety about not having anxiety.
Jeff East [:It's It's because that's I I deal with that too, and it's like, ah.
Cat Perlson [:The first time that you didn't overreact, you're probably were like, Is there something wrong with me? Why am I not overreacting? I remember telling my therapist that the first time. I was like, I had a really, like, bad thing happen, and I was calm and cool and Collective. What's wrong with me?
Jeff East [:I I was coming back from the old job. I was coming back from Pennsylvania, and A snow's call came, and the car I was in got hit from behind by a semi.
Eric Pennington [:Mhmm.
Cat Perlson [:And
Jeff East [:I'm going, nobody got hurt. I'm going like, wait a minute. This ain't right.
Cat Perlson [:Exactly. You're not Chicken Little. You're not like, the sky is falling. The sky is falling. And it's it was always bad. I don't know if you guys are people who stuff stress. You push it down.
Eric Pennington [:I have my moments.
Cat Perlson [:I have my moments too. And to be able to not push something down, to to feel it in the moment, and to go, wait a second. This is not a big deal. And I have all of the tools in my toolbox to be able to deal with this. And I'm not crying. I am not overreacting. I am having a a response rather than a reaction, and that Was the one of the greatest days on my mental health journey was to know I can respond rather than react.
Eric Pennington [:Yeah. That's awesome. I'm thinking about some of the things that you said there as far as keeping yourself mentally fit. I'm finding that The more that I'm able to focus in on moving myself out of the sympathetic part of my nervous system to the parasympathetic, The better I'm gonna be doing. Right? And at times, I've asked myself, so why didn't I do this back when I was, like, you know, the corporate Mhmm. Whatever? And I and I remember back then, I'd see a lilac bush and love the fragrance, but feel like I didn't have time. Mhmm. And I would just it just passed me by.
Eric Pennington [:Mhmm. You know, I remember the the leaves changing. I know they did because they do every year, but there was a significant number of years where It was just a type thing. And though We all have things that we're managing and responsible for. I'm so glad I finally realized that, you know, The paying attention to that lilac tree, that lilac bush is as equally as important as that big project that's gonna reap whatever. Mhmm. And I didn't used to believe that. And I think when we make that kinda transition, it's like we're honoring our bodies, our minds.
Eric Pennington [:We're we're we're basically saying, no. You know, the The most the biggest, most important gift I've been given is this, our body, our mind. So, yeah, I should take some time to pay attention to it, to care for it, and all of that. Okay. So As we are running out of time, as we always do with such great guests, which, Kat, that does mean you're going to be invited back. Hopefully, you'll wanna come back
Cat Perlson [:Yes. Of course.
Eric Pennington [:Some time with us. For sure. So what are you currently excited about? What's what's going on in your world you'd love our audience to know about?
Cat Perlson [:Oh, I I'm so excited about so many different things. Well, first of all, the holidays, who isn't excited about those? Yeah. I I am excited personally. I just feel like I'm where I'm supposed to be in life and that that the art That's inside of me, it really it really is gonna shine. And that I have a loving family and a A fantastic support system, and life excites me. I'm just excited about life. I was actually in a, in a facilitation moment, And we're talking about our proudest moment. And it's it's part of a training in which is called the 5 dysfunctions of a team.
Cat Perlson [:And they ask you what your proudest moment is, and I just said, I'm proud that I'm here. I'm proud that I'm still here, And I'm proud that I'm still fighting, and I'm proud that I'm still growing. And I'm excited that I'm still learning, and I am excited That I have the opportunity to learn from my mistakes. I'm excited that I get to share what growth mindset is With so many different people, I'm excited that my friends are going down their own mental health journey. I'm excited that The future is limitless if we band together, provide empathy, And really give people a place where they can experience what grace is and teaching them how to do it to themselves.
Eric Pennington [:Yeah.
Cat Perlson [:And to your point, I think my my noble mission is we have To give great we have to give the grace that we extend to others, to ourselves. And if I can teach people that, if I can teach If this podcast helps that, if my work doesn't, or even just being nice to A lady in a grocery store, if that can help them see that there is grace and they should extend it to themselves, I will I will be a whole person. I will be happy
Eric Pennington [:and Well and I I would dare say, Kat, You're looking pretty whole to me because what inspires me is the fact that you didn't say that From the perspective of someone who says, well, I've already checked the box. I've already checked the box. I don't deal with that, and I don't deal with this, and I no. You're saying I'm dealing with all these things, and Still, I am. Yes. That to me is living well. Everyone, we thank you so much for joining us For today's show, it was a pleasure. Yes.
Eric Pennington [:It was. We look forward to the next time that we're together. Take care.
