You asked, we answered! This episode features your burning questions about how to build harmonious long-term relationships. We start out with tips for developing secure attachment, including ways to soothe yourself and a partner during an anxious attachment flare. We also explore ways to get unstuck when one partner’s core wounds get triggered regularly, including fair fighting rules and communication tools that foster a peaceful relationship.

Want to win a virtual tea date with Josh and Jessica? Screenshot your Apple podcast review and send it to us at podcast@relationshipcenter.com by May 9th, 2023. We’ll choose one winner at random for an hour-long virtual chat where you can pick our brains, ask us questions, or just hang out.

Key Takeaways

00:00 - Intro

01:52 - How to support yourself and people you are dating with anxious attachment

28:38 - Core wounds in relationships

42:15 - Fair fighting tools for harmonious, mutually supportive relationships

Resources and links

For full show notes with links, visit relationshipcenter.com/podcast

Mindful Self-Compassion

Inner Bonding

Getting the Love you Want, by Harville Hendrix and Helen LaKelly Hunt.

Possible Fair Fighting Rules to consider for your relationship

I-Statements blog post

Couples Dialogue, a communication tool for better understanding and empathizing with your partner, from Imago Works

4 Horsemen Antidotes, strategies for addressing negative communication patterns in relationships, from the Gottman Institute

Ep. 5 - How to avoid online dating burnout

Like this show? Please leave us a review here - even a short review helps other people find the show!

We want to hear from you! Send us your thoughts, questions, and feedback to podcast@relationshipcenter.com

Looking for some help finding your person? Visit relationshipcenter.com

insecure attachment, the way that it manifests in a relationship is

a nervous system asking to be healed in relationship, and that is not a bad

thing, even if it's very uncomfortable.

From the relationship center, I'm psychotherapist, couples counselor and

dating coach, Jessica Engle, and this is, I Love You too, a show about how to create

and sustain meaningful relationships.

I'm professional certified coach Josh, Van Vliet.

On today's episode, we're gonna be answering some of your questions

on the topics around anxious attachment, core wounds in

relationships, and fair fighting rules.

We're so happy you're here, and please remember that this show is not a

substitute for a relationship with a licensed mental health professional.

Welcome, welcome

Welcome.

Thank

joining us.

We are super excited.

We've got some juicy questions sent in by listeners that we're gonna be digging

into today, uh, all around issues that come up, uh, in dating and for couples.

and so we're, we're very excited to get into this and if you'd like us to

answer a question from you on a future episode, you can go to relationship

center.com/podcast for instructions about how to send us questions.

And we may, uh, we may get to answer it for you..

Yes.

One announcement before we dive in.

You dear Listener can win a free virtual tea date with me and Josh.

That is an hour where you can pick our brains or just hang out and chat.

All you need to do is go to Apple Podcast and write a review, then

send a screenshot of your review to podcast@relationshipcenter.com by May 9th,

2023, we will be choosing one winner at random for that virtual tea after May 9th.

And thank you.

In advanced reviews really help other sweet humans like you find the show.

I'm so excited for that it's gonna be fun

Me too.

too

All right, well let's dive in with our first question, uh, which comes from

a listener named Jeremy, and I'm gonna go ahead and play his question here.

So I'm someone who can definitely tend towards anxious attachment and a

number of the people I've dated, uh, have anxious attachment tendencies as well.

So I'm curious what advice or wisdom you might share around how to support

both myself and uh, someone I'm dating with anxious attachment tendencies.

Thanks.

Hmm.

I

I love this question.

Yeah.

Thank you Jeremy

Do you wanna start, or do you want We're gonna, we're gonna ping

pong back and forth a little bit here.

Yeah.

Um, well, and I wanna just name, it sounds like there's sort of two pieces

to this question, taking care of oneself around anxious attachment, and then

caring for one's partner when they're perhaps in an anxious attachment flare.

Mm-hmm.

. Um, well, I think I often, uh, start So why don't you start, Josh?

All right.

Um,

cool.

Well, one of the things I was thinking about as, as I was reflecting on this

question is, especially in early dating, I feel like that's the time when it's

really important to, soothe ourselves, on our own because it's just there's not

enough relationship present yet there's not enough trust and safety built up to.

Bring a lot of that anxious attachment kind of care or request that from our

partner, the person that we're dating.

and I was also thinking about how when we're talking about attachment,

relationships are so important.

And then so there's, there are some things we can do to kind

of soothe ourselves on our own.

and those are good.

but I also imagine it's really helpful to get some of those relational needs

met through other relationships.

Right.

Yeah.

And I'm thinking about the conversation we had with Leia in our online dating

burnout episodes where she was really emphasizing don't try to get all of your

relational needs met through dating.

Um, cuz it can put undue pressure on the people that you're dating.

So, yeah, I agree.

I think you're thinking of a couple things.

I was gonna say, one, there are gonna be points in the dating process or

or relationship process where we are gonna need to practice self-soothing.

And, the thing about both anxious and avoid and attachment is there's a

difficulty with just that, with self soothing, we, we need other either

things or people to help us manage our emotions more so than maybe is helpful

or at times like functional for us.

so it's a great moment to take the opportunity to use.

I think things like, um, meditation or deep breathing or or journaling

or reading sometimes, taking in just other information that's

not related to the relationship can be really, really helpful.

and Yeah, I, I I think that's right on anxious attachment is a hyper

arousal of the attachment system.

It, it's like, I mean, on a nervous system level, it's kind of like it's

kind of like a tiger's chasing you, which is kind of true, like

on a, on a nervous system level.

When our attachment system gets hyperactivated, it's

because we feel a threat.

And specifically the threat of the loss of an attachment figure, um,

which on a, a sort of primal level can feel like, uh, the threat of death.

And so you, your body's like filling you up with all this

energy so you can run away or run towards your attachment figure.

You have to do something with that energy, right?

And sometimes that is part of the self soothing, like maybe exercise is part of

your self soothing, but also, reaching out to other attachment figures, right?

Like friends or family or a therapist.

And one of the, one of the tips that I really liked from the book attached is

when you are more anxiously attached, make sure that you date multiple people.

You're still in the dating game until you're very clear that you are, um,

attaching to one particular person and they're really able to meet your needs.

that way you're kind of, I don't wanna say tricking your attachment system, but

there's a, uh, you're feeding it, right?

So if uh, the person you went on a date with on Sunday, it's

Tuesday, they haven't responded yet.

You can go swipe a bit, maybe message some other matches, and your

attachment system is gonna feel like it's putting its energy somewhere.

Mm-hmm.

. It's so funny.

I think that's, uh, so smart.

And it's advice that I so hate

Mm-hmm.

I, I, you know,

I think it just kind of goes against, uh, my, my urges or my, my instincts to

like attach immediately.

Right.

Um,

which I think is why it's so valuable.

Right.

It's, uh, it's just it's can be very uncomfortable for those of us who

are anxiously attached that we, we wanna be kind of all in or we want to.

No, this is our person and what you're saying is to have more, we're

almost like telling our nervous system.

We've got options here.

We've got

other people.

This is not like if this person leaves or isn't available or doesn't work out

for some reason, then it's all over,

you know, end of the world.

It's like we're kind of giving signals for other, other kinds of safety

or, or options to get our needs met.

Yes, absolutely.

Yeah.

And um, I hear you and I wanna be very clear.

Dating multiple people isn't necessarily going to be comfortable.

Right.

really, for some of us

it's very uncomfortable.

Some people it's fine, but,

yeah.

And so I think it's good to hold it as a short-term strategy for

doing that pacing and assessing prior to, uh, hyper attaching.

Shall we talk about some other ways to work with anxious attachment within one?

You know, you mentioned in some instances, uh, maybe particularly later on in a

relationship, it's appropriate to go to your partner with some anxious attachment.

Yeah.

and I'm, I'm thinking let's talk a little bit more about if that it's

not really time for that, or if your partner is unavailable, which is gonna

happen in any relationship at any stage.

Yeah.

There's going to be some unavailability Right,

that's a great point.

I just wanna, I'm just letting that sink in for myself right now.

What you're saying is it's normal at all times in a relationship.

No matter how long you've been together, of course your partner is

not gonna be available at all times to meet all of your attachment needs.

And that's really helpful to remember.

I think sometimes I get in my head like, oh, you know, we should be

there for our partner at all times.

Our partner should be

there for us at all times.

And it's just like, no, we're all human.

It's, it's good and normal to have.

Moments when your partner isn't available and you rely on other resources,

and that kind of allows you to feed more energy back into the relationship.

whereas if you're just relying on each other for that kind of, support,

then it's, it, it's a little bit, more fragile, a little bit less resilient.

Absolutely right.

Yeah.

it's a village to have a relationship.

Yeah, right.

Yeah.

Well, maybe somewhat related to that, I think just one piece I really wanna

recommend, around managing one's own anxious attachment is to radically accept

that attachment style, which can be very hard cause it can be a very painful style.

there can be kind of a sense of like, I never get my needs

fully met, and also a sense of inferiority in terms of I'm too needy

Mm-hmm.

and that's so painful.

and, you know, anxious attachment is a normal response to inconsistent care.

That's, that's what anxious attachment is a reflection of.

We've had a, a caregiver or an attachment figure who was there in some

moments, emotionally and not in others.

And so this is just kind of a natural outgrowth of that.

And so I think really trying to practice self-compassion as much as possible and

seeing this not as a flaw or a moral failing, but as just a part of, of the

sweet, animal body in the words of Mary Oliver that you need to take care of.

What else do you have, Josh?

everything else on my list is about what to do with your partner,

Ah,

anything else that you wanna add about how to support yourself,

uh, with anxious attachment?

Yes.

Uh, two more.

One.

When you're feeling anxious, try to take a moment to, to tune into

what might be getting activated from your past attachment relationships.

So, you know, oftentimes our attachment styles, are a result of

our lived relationship experience.

And so when we're anxious, say in dating or in a relationship, it may

be about that current experience.

And it may also be that a childhood experience of, uh, inconsistent

care is being activated.

The reason it's important to connect the dots is that that early experience

of not having consistent care that typically underlies anxious attachment,

it's what's called implicit memory.

And so it's kind of wired into our brains and bodies.

in a way that isn't always conscious.

It's not like we remember, oh, my mom didn't come into my room when

I called for her when I was four.

We, we may, but typically it's more of a, an embodied sense of fear of being left.

It's just I'm anxious right now.

My partner isn't returning my phone calls

Wtf.

Wtf, yeah.

And so with implicit memory, when we can make it explicit or conscious,

it has less control over us.

So we move it from the part of our brain that stores implicit memory, and that we

in many ways react to or get flooded by.

We move all of that information into our prefrontal cortex, which is

the part of our brain that makes us these higher thinking beings, allows

us to be human and not just animal.

And so the more we can say, okay, I'm, I'm noticing, I'm

feeling really anxious because my partner seems really preoccupied.

What does this relate back to?

And I think about the pieces of my story.

It might relate back to, I tune into my body.

I see if there are memories that come up, or just an instinct

about what is getting triggered.

All of that is going to allow us to actually develop more secure

attachment because we have a more coherent sense of self.

It also strikes me what you're, what you're pointing out here helps

us to draw a distinction between the anxiety that's coming up and what's

happening in the present moment and is, some of it may not be about this.

And if we can

recognize, and I wanna say this very, in a very particular way, the anxiety is valid.

It's there for a reason.

It's, it's, I no way mean to imply that you shouldn't be anxious because

you have, you know, just like you were talking about, there are experiences

you had in your life that your, your nervous system has developed

This particular response that is very, has been very adaptive for you

up until this moment.

And when we can get a little bit of that kind of tying these pieces together,

like you're talking about, it gives us a different window onto what's happening at.

And it's like, oh, my partner's preoccupied right now.

That may not be a sign that they're about to leave, right?

It's maybe they just had a hard day at work.

And when I could see, okay, this anxiety isn't really about, this isn't

necessarily a signal of immediate danger that allows us to interact differently,

respond differently to our partner, to ourselves in that moment with a little

bit more compassion for what's happen.

Yes.

Be beautifully put.

So we're developing our observing ego.

We're using mindfulness, and that allows us to respond rather than react.

I think everyone probably has been in relationship with somebody who's

been more reactive than responsive.

It's not fun.

Uh, and so this uh, sort of breath between anxious attachment experience

and action will give you a better chance of building close relationships.

Mm-hmm.

, it really gives you, I think to what you're saying before about self-compassion

helps you develop that self-compassion.

Like, oh, this makes sense.

What I'm experiencing

makes sense because of what I've been through,

and

I don't have to judge myself so harshly for why am I being like this?

I shouldn't be this anxious right now.

I shouldn't, you know, have this experience.

It's like, oh no, this all adds up.

the the kind of emotional math, I, I think about it sometimes.

It all adds up.

it all adds up.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I love that you're pointing that out and I think that's a big piece of healing.

Anxious attachment is really rooting in This is completely

understandable, as you were saying.

Yeah.

Beautiful.

One last one before we move on.

So I wanna just touch on secure attachment priming.

Oh, I love this.

Yes.

So we have some really, uh, yummy research that says that we can actually

develop more secure attachment by consuming images, movies, music,

or spending time with people who are secure functioning couples.

Okay, let me back up.

So that was, that was consuming media of secure functioning couples or of parent

child dyads where you're seeing sort of symbols, signifiers of secure attachments.

So they're gazing at each other in the eyes.

Maybe they're smiling if it's a TV or a TV show, or a movie,

perhaps you're seeing them.

respond to one another's emotional bids for connection really effectively

making amends when they make mistakes, these sorts of things.

So all of that, or spending time with people who are secure, functioning

couples or securely attached people.

Your nervous system will actually learn the embodied experience of

secure attachment more so that you're able to activate those

circuits in your relationships or if you're dating, to recognize when

somebody activates them in you.

Uh, so I love, love, love secure attachment, priming.

A few concrete ways to use this, uh, like I mentioned, movies, TV shows,

music that features those kinds of people spend time with, uh, those you see as

secure functioning or securely attached.

You also could, uh, experiment with some self parenting.

This is where we go inward and we try to soothe the scared

child in us, probably that child that had that inconsistent care.

And there's a lot of different ways you can do that.

Some practices include mindful self-compassion.

There's also a practice called inner bonding.

we can link to those in case that's helpful.

One last practice of secure attachment priming is to have a

conversation with your future partner.

You can do this in writing, you can do this internally as a visualization,

or you can do it out loud.

Uh, and what you're gonna wanna do there is play both sides.

Play yourself, play your partner.

And when your partner speaks to you, have them speak to you with the tone of

somebody who is there for you, emotionally loves you, and is really able to soothe

you in the way that works for you.

You may not necessarily know what that sounds like right away.

Um, I know for a lot of people, they kind of have to learn what that sounds like.

So, you know, go back to finding that media, uh, or people who are securely

attached, maybe a therapist, and start to really pay attention to how do these

people actually speak to one another, both in words, but also in tone.

mm-hmm.

, that's so great.

In doing that, you're getting to practice the skills that you'll need to be in a

secure functioning relationship as well.

Yes.

Uh, I love that.

Okay.

Well, why don't we dig into, uh, the second part of this question, uh, around

what are some of the things that you can do to help soothe your partner?

One of the very basic things that, that I was thinking about is just

expressing your care, expressing your affection, appreciation at whatever

level is authentic to the relationship.

Yes.

so even if it's early on in dating, you might, for example, after a first

date, I'm just text them and say, Hey, I really enjoyed spending time with you.

Maybe share something you appreciated about

them.

If it's, uh, later on in dating, it might look like, uh, you're saying

I love you, or whatever it might be.

But some of these things that can help almost like preemptively help.

So, Anxious attachment when, because for those of us who, who have anxious

attachment tendencies, part of it is not knowing if our partner cares

is available, is interested in us.

And that's kind of some one of the things that can rev it up.

Like, ah, I don't know.

Uh, and so if we're consistently expressing care and affection,

that can help, uh, head that off

Yes, absolutely.

Yeah.

A couple surfaced years ago said to me, you really wanna catch the

train before it leaves the station.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Uh, when it comes to two nervous systems, if you get past a certain

point of dysregulation, it's not good.

hard.

It's hard.

to, hard to reign it back in.

Right?

Yes.

I think those Indicators of we're, we're connected.

I love you.

I'm still here.

In all those small ways really help with that.

I think related to that, really using specifically loving touch

soft gazes, and you already named it, I, I have attachment oriented

statements, things like, I love you.

I'm here.

I'm so happy to be close to you.

I'm not going anywhere.

Words, are really helpful for reestablishing attachment and.

More, even more so than words, our tone of voice, our

micro-expressions and our eye contact.

Also proximity and touch have a really powerful regulating

impact on the nervous system.

So you just wanna make sure that you are really just coming in

with as much softness as possible

Yeah, it's almost like you can't help them regulate.

If you are not regulated yourself, it's, it's much harder,

maybe I'll say.

and so to the extent that you can be that in the way that you're talking,

you can be, uh, present, be caring, you know, let them know how you're

doing, what you feel about them.

because obviously if you, if you're saying I love you, but you're really feeling

anxious and annoyed, probably gonna

there.

Yeah.

Oh yeah.

it's gotta match what you're,

you know, it can't just be like words.

I absolutely.

Yeah.

And I think that it's good to keep in mind, like we were saying

earlier, if, if you have some anxious attachment, there's probably an

experience in your childhood where you didn't get the care that you needed.

And so remembering that when your partner's in that anxious state,

that scared inner child is probably activated and speaking to that

person, not in a patronizing way, but just keeping in mind right now on a

psychological level, they may be kind of at a, like a six year old's level.

So I think treating your partner with the same kind of tenderness you would treat,

say, a four-year-old or a six-year-old who is really scared that it can often

be much more effective than maybe sort of intellectualizing and trying to talk

about it from this kind of adult place.

Yeah.

Yeah.

One of the traps we can so easily fall into is thinking about it rationally.

It's like

sometimes it's like, well, rationally you shouldn't be

this upset about this thing, right?

It shouldn't, you should, this doesn't make sense.

This is a little thing, and now you're super anxious and upset and mad at me.

Like, let's just look at it rationally.

It's like in that moment, no,

Right.

they're not

in a place to be able to look at it rationally, and that's not what

they're needing in that moment.

You know, they need that as you're, as you're pointing to that, that care, that

tenderness, that like compassion for, they're really suffering in that moment

and not so much

because of that, maybe that little thing that happened, but because of

all the things that have happened that led up to that moment that are real,

that are important, that are valid.

and along those lines, one of the things that I, I, I find so helpful for me

to hold onto is not just that this is, this is valid, but this is important.

when we're thinking about.

Developing secure attachment, uh, being in a secure functioning relationship.

It's uncomfortable when our anxious attachment comes up.

But it's important, these are the opportunities for rewiring, for

healing, for, finding other ways to move through these moments.

And so not, is it only just like, you know, O okay.

That it's coming up.

It's like, oh, this is, this is good.

It's uncomfortable,

. Maybe it wasn't what I thought we

this is actually really important.

Yes.

So coming back to that radical acceptance

Yeah, yeah.

insecure attachment, the way that it manifests in a relationship is

a nervous system asking to be healed in relationship, and that is not a bad

thing, even if it's very uncomfortable.

Shall we talk two other short tips and then move on to the next question?

Yeah, absolutely.

Uh, I've got one or two as well.

So do you wanna

Very good.

you go and then I'll go and then you go

All right.

One other tip for helping support your partner if they're in an anxious

attachment flare is to make sure that you have rituals for reunions and departures.

So, uh, coming apart and back together again.

Is difficult for those who are anxiously attached because they have to, really

confront their fears about being left on often a very small level,

but nonetheless dysregulating level.

Mm-hmm.

. And so if you have, uh, structured practices for those,

re reunions and departures, that can be very, very soothing.

And that can be something as simple as anytime, my partner comes home, I

make sure to greet them at the door and hug them and welcome them warmly.

And anytime they leave, I kiss them and say goodbye.

Mm-hmm.

. Super simple, but really helps us stay connected and know, kind of be present

with each other, know that we're okay and everything is fine, and we can kind

of go and separate and then come back

Yes,

love that.

The other thing I was thinking about is if there's something that's coming up that

you've done own your side of the street,

that can

be really helpful.

Uh, you know, if you've done something that caused some suffering, even

if you didn't mean to do it, just acknowledge it and apologize and

acknowledge the impact that it had.

Right.

It's so important to say, Hey, sweetie, I'm so sorry.

I, I really hear that, when I spoke in that harsh tone to you it really hurt.

I didn't mean that, and I, I, but I really hear that it was very painful and you

kind of felt shut down in that moment.

I'm so sorry.

Thank you,

Yeah.

Yeah.

So just kind of not letting your defensiveness come up or like, it

shouldn't be this way, but just like, oh, this is, this is what happened.

Let

me acknowledge that show that I'm really hearing the pain that they're in so that

they can really start to feel close again.

Like, oh, okay, person's got me.

yes.

. Yeah.

And you're talking to the importance of, of knowing how to repair ruptures.

Ruptures happen in relationships all the time, even if you're in a

secure functioning relationship.

And so secure functioning couples know how to make amends.

They know how to fix that tear.

Oh, one more.

This one's important.

Okay.

When an anxiously attached person is in their anxiety, they are often filled

with a sense of hopelessness about their needs getting met in relationship.

As a result, oftentimes they will come across as angry and resistant

and critical, even though that's not what they're intending at all.

And that can look like sending out, uh, explicit and implicit messages to go away.

So, for example, , you mess up, you, you know, do something that

triggers them a little bit and they say, fine, I don't care.

You can go spend time in the other room.

I'm gonna be over here doing my thing.

Um, so on the surface, that seems like, uh, a very clear message to go away.

And if they are truly anxiously attached, they're actually

wanting you to come closer.

So that's actually a moment to come close and say, Hey, I really, I have the sense

that things aren't okay and I want you to know I'm here and I love you, and

I really wanna know what's happening.

And that's actually gonna soThe their system much, much more.

And that takes some practice that is not, uh,

not necessarily

intuitive for us,

uh, cuz our own stuff can get kicked up.

And it's like, well, okay, I'm gonna go away.

Fine.

You don't wanna be near me.

Alright.

And, uh, but to really, pause and say, okay, I see.

While this is uncomfortable, this is a signal

they, they, they want and need closeness right now,

so I'm gonna go towards them.

That was great.

Yay.

Yay.

Thank you again, Jeremy.

That was a wonderful question.

Yeah, I feel like we could do a whole episode on that

speaking, which

I, I, uh, I'm excited.

I think at some point we're gonna do a whole episode on

secure attachment priming.

I'm excited to really get to dig into that more cause that's so juicy.

All right.

Uh, question number two.

You Ready?

Ready?

Okay.

So this question comes from Lisa, and she asks, what advice can you share

if you have a relationship where one of the partner's core wounds

begins to overly become the filter?

through which they see their partner's actions, even if that isn't the

intention of the other partner.

And the example she gives is, one partner never felt they could speak up to their

parents or peers, but now they think they see that pattern occurring all

the time with their significant other.

Uh, even if that may not be the case,

Yes.

I love this question, and when I read it I was like, oh, you mean every relationship

the same thought I had.

I was like, oh yeah, this is what happens for everybody.

This

so normal.

So normal.

Yeah.

and and I feel like knowing, kind of recognizing that it's normal can

help just lessen the the angst about

Yes.

That it's like, oh no, this is, this is a good sign.

This is part of what, what, uh, comes with the territory of having a partner,

Yeah.

Yeah.

In some ways it can be very, I think, kind of counterintuitive or confusing

because as we get closer to our partner, as we become more like family, say

we commit on a certain level, maybe we move in, maybe we get engaged,

whatever it is, all of those implicit memory circuits that I mentioned

earlier are gonna get more activated.

We're gonna have more of that family stuff come up.

So I think this comes back to the radical acceptance.

Yeah.

yeah.

I wrote down this is coming up for a reason and it's good

. It's good that

it's coming up.

It's important.

Uh, yeah.

absolutely.

Yeah.

I, it made me think about Imago theory, which basically says that we.

look for partners who match the sort of internal amalgamation of our, all of our

early caregivers, all the good and all the bad, because we really want to have

the good, but also fix what didn't work.

Mm-hmm.

on some unconscious level.

Right.

And that the, the point isn't to find somebody who doesn't bring up your stuff.

The point is to find someone who can help you heal, who can respond to you in a

way that maybe your caregivers couldn't.

Yeah.

That's so beautiful.

Uh sweet.

And, and realistic, I think view

on what partnership is all about.

So what do you think, Josh?

What's one approach to working with core wounds getting activated in a partnership?

Yeah.

Well, I think part of it, , one of the things that's can, can

be helpful is to just notice like, what bothers me about this?

Because it's, it's, it's framed as this is coming up from my partner.

I'm imagining that the question is being asked because there's something that's,

that's frustrating about that, right?

Uh, it's like, well, this isn't this.

Rational.

This isn't fair.

This isn't what I'm trying to do.

Which is true, right?

We're not trying to go around, bringing stuff up for our partner.

Uh, but I think that place where we can get hooked sometimes is of, well, it's

not supposed to be like this, or, or it's not fair that they're putting this their

stuff on me, and that's not about me.

That's about them.

Come on.

yeah.

And so just kind of noticing like, well, what is it that's come up from me?

Where, where are the places that I get annoyed or irritated or frustrated?

Not to make that wrong, but just to kind of take care of that and, and be gentle

with that, because that's important too.

And if you're not present with that, you can't be present with your partner

in a way that is healing and loving

helping them.

So that, that felt like the first place.

Cuz it's so, it's so easy to get sucked into this trap of trying to figure

out who is in the right, so to speak.

Or like who has the blame or the responsibility.

It's like, this is so common in partnerships, it's like, well, I want

to know this one's about you, that, that other, that other one's about me.

I'll take that one.

But this one, this one's all on you, right?

And it's like, you know, I'm justified for feeling this way.

Or,

you know, if if

they would only heal their trauma,

this wouldn't be coming up, right?

Or if,

or sometimes the opposite,

right?

If, if the kind of blame or internal blame or shame, like if I didn't say

these things like that, they wouldn't get triggered and I'm terrible.

Yes.

Where it's really, it's more like both of what you're feeling is

valid, even if it feels contradictory,

Mm-hmm.

right?

There's not a like one right answer here that if we kind of loosen our

grip on trying to figure out what the truth is, kind of, I'm using air quotes

here, the truth cuz what is truth?

That when we can loosen our grip on that, we can, we can really

see, oh, no, a relationship is between two people is complex.

It's, it's a, a two person psychological system to borrow,

I think a Stan STKs phrase.

And that we all bring stuff to that, whether it's kind of big T trauma,

little t trauma, life experiences, painful breakups, relationships,

experiences from childhood, and that's gonna get kicked up for both of us.

And if we shift from who's right or who's responsible, and instead look at, oh,

how can we use this to heal together?

I feel like that's a really powerful frame or like vantage point to, to get at this.

Absolutely.

Yeah, I think that's so beautiful.

So This process of turning towards ourselves in those moments where we feel

like it's unfair, is so important, uh, for shifting out of that find the bad guy.

State Sue Johnson, who wrote Hold Me Tight, talks a lot about all of the

Find the Bad Guy dances that couples do.

Highly recommend that book and that self-compassion is the way to get

ourselves back to a place where we can be that soothing force for our

partner, which is gonna stop the train from leaving the station.

I think the other piece I really love about what you're saying is the way

that, that I put words to it is, which of your core wounds get activated when

your partner's core wounds get activat?

The, from what I've seen working with couples is the places where they

struggle the most are where they have these interlocking traumas or these

vulnerability cycles where your trauma gets activated and makes you act a

certain way, which activates my trauma.

Mm-hmm.

, and neither of us is in our regulated adult self and the train leaves the

station So yeah, that's, what I would come back to is what is it about my

partner seeing me as attacking or criticizing potentially, does that

activate something from my own experience?

Was I scapegoated?

Was I blamed?

Was I told I shouldn't express myself in the way that I naturally express myself?

Mm-hmm.

Because I think that information is going to allow you

to, to negotiate how to be in those moments considering both of your sort of

wounded, younger selves are activated.

Yeah.

I love, I love what you're saying about that and the, the

way of really identifying very specifically what it might be linked

Mm-hmm.

that you can have compassion for yourself in your own experience.

The other piece I'm hearing in that is acknowledging, oh, we both have

stuff coming up here that it's about, there's a piece of this for both of us.

that it's not just one

partner.

Perhaps.

Mm-hmm.

Absolutely.

The other thought I was having around this is, is there something

I'm doing that is, uh, that is bringing up this experience for the

other person, even unintentionally.

Right.

where I might be able to acknowledge, and validate their experience and,

and, and as I was saying in the previous question, apologize for

any harm that I've, I've caused

even

unintentionally.

Right.

And, you know, I, I, I think sometimes of the metaphor of, of

a wound, if our partner had like a cut on their arm, uh, you know, we

wouldn't go around poking the cut.

Mm-hmm.

Like, normally if they

they didn't have a wound on their arm, I could poke their arm.

It wouldn't be a big deal.

, it would be fine.

But, you know, in a similar way with, with emotional wounds, wounds from our

past or our childhood things that we kind of think rationally like this shouldn't

be a big deal when we do them, may still be kind of like poking the wound.

Yes.

And so it's not about, oh, I should never do these things, you know,

but let me look and see, okay, if I know that this particular thing is, is

really hard for my partner right now, are there ways that we can work with that?

Are there ways that I can maybe be a little bit more gentle around

that area while we're healing this?

Not like this is how it's gonna be forever in our relationship and I just

have to never, you know, do this thing.

Right?

Cause I don't think that's very functional.

But as we're healing, as we're creating space for some new experiences, uh, some

new neural pathways around this stuff, uh, where could I maybe be a little bit

gentle or gentle with my partner here?

yes.

I love that and I think that it's also helpful to remember that.

, we are wired to look for threats in the environment.

Mm-hmm.

, we are like constantly scanning on an unconscious level for

threats, including honor partners face in their tone of voice.

And so, cause we're, we're the descendants of the most anxious,

uh, creatures in millennia past.

Right.

The ones who were most scanning the most for threat were the ones who survived.

Mm-hmm.

Um, We tend to, uh, interpret threat where it doesn't exist.

Right, right,

It's, it's a better, evolutionarily it's a better mistake

to see threat where there isn't

one,

right.

uh, 99 times

than to, uh, miss a threat when there is one.

Once.

Cause then you're dead.

,and so

as you're saying, it's like so normal for us to see threats all

over the place that aren't real

or aren't at the

level that we think they are, right?

Yeah.

there's some very small, subtle things that we can do with our face, with

our tone of voice that is going to send the threat response off in most people.

So for example, if you're sitting side by side, not looking into one another's

eyes, looking out of your peripheral vision, you're more likely to get,

uh, triggered into a threat response because, uh, you know, as creatures,

something that's in our peripheral vision, uh, could be attacking us.

So things like that you may completely unintentionally have a particular facial

expression or, tone of voice that gets your partner's threat system going.

. And so I think really helpful I think to talk very specifically about,

well, what is it in that moment when you feel like I'm attacking you, that

you're seeing on my face or hearing in my voice, is there a harshness?

Is there something that, uh, feels threatening?

Hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's great.

That's, that's I love, uh, I love it.

I just love it.

Anything else to say about

it?

The other thought I had on this is, You know, we're talking about the, seeing the

opportunities for, for mutual healing, for seeing where our stuff comes up, for

acknowledging where we may have done harm, even unintentionally, and, and apologizing

and understanding what I might be doing that might be sending signals of threat.

And I, I wanna just name, if you there, there may be moments in

your relationship where you truly aren't available to do a particular

piece of healing with your partner.

And if that's the case, it's really important to name that too.

Not, not, because that's, and I wanna say this because it's, it's important

to see this isn't bad, this isn't wrong, it's not a failure on your part or their

part, but it's, it is really important to acknowledge like, oh, I need to,

I need to heal this piece separately because, um, for whatever reason or

I, or I need my partner to heal this piece separately because it's, it's

maybe too triggering for me right now.

To work with them around this.

And that doesn't mean you need to break up, doesn't mean you need to like,

you know, it just might be, okay, I'm gonna go work with my therapist on this

piece and then bring this back in as a relationship when I'm, when we're ready.

And that's just important to acknowledge.

So it doesn't, we, we don't keep getting in these cycles over and over again and

feeling frustrated and feeling hurt, um, and kind of reinforcing inadvertently

some of the painful patterns.

Yes.

I, I love how you're framing it in terms of you're not coming and

saying, , Hey, your trauma stuff is getting in the way of our relationship.

You need to go deal with it.

It's, you're coming in and saying, I'm noticing my stuff's getting

activated, or My capacity is limited around whatever it is that's wanting

to be healed in our relationship right now, and we need more support.

yeah.

That's just such a different tone,

Mm-hmm.

. Yeah.

Yeah.

And I, I love the, what you just said about we need more support,

cuz it could also be that it's just you need some couples therapy

where

just having someone who can support the two of you together to navigate

those, those tender moments, that could also just be what you need.

it may not be that you have to go completely outside of each

other to get that support.

It may just be that a skillful couple therapist can really

help make the difference there

yes, absolutely

okay, cool.

I hope that's helpful, Lisa.

Yes.

Thank you, Lisa.

Again, just a great question.

All right, so let's go on to our third and final question for today's show.

And this comes from Danny.

What are your top three fair fighting tools for fostering a harmonious,

mutually supportive relationship.

Great question, Danny.

I love it so much.

I'd love you to start this one,

honey here.

Hear what you got.

got?

Great.

Okay, so.

First I wanna start by talking about Fair Fighting Rules, which is a little

different from Fair Fighting Tools.

Mm-hmm.

is that your first tool?

differentiate the two

Here's

set some fair fighting rules for fair

right?

Yeah.

So, we could consider that the, the first rule, in which case I will have

four, not three So fair fighting rules.

Some couples are really eager for these because they're wanting to kind of know

what's normal and acceptable in conflict.

And have some baseline behaviors that they can agree to.

I'm gonna link to a list of potential rules, and I'll

give you an example of a few.

so for example, for some couples decide in our fights, we're not gonna

do name calling, we're not gonna cured each other, we're not going to

threaten the relationship, and we're not going to ice each other out.

We're not gonna do that stonewalling thing.

Okay, that's great.

the thing I wanna say about this is that not all fair

fighting rules fit all couples.

So one in particular they think about is, raising one's voice.

For some people, they grew up in perhaps a conflict avoidant

household and raising voices, does not work for their nervous system.

For others, perhaps they grew up in a very emotionally expressive household.

And raising voices really does work.

. So I think that, related to the Fair fighting rules, talk with your partner

and really come to an agreement together about what those rules are.

ideally when you're not in the middle of a fight.

Yes, good point.

That's

helpful.

Yeah.

How about you, Josh?

Yeah.

Yeah, I, I think along a similar line, having some, uh, shared agreements

and one of the things that comes up for me is having like a shared context or purpose

for your relationship in particular.

You know, it might look like we have a shared context for healing and growth.

That's part of what we agree we're about together is helping each

other heal, helping each other grow.

And, I'm, I'm realizing as I'm saying this, the possible danger of

this is thinking like, oh, I'm gonna use this fight to help my partner.

Ha ha ha

they have to grow here, which is not what this is about at all.

But rather, we're sharing this context of we're interested in

growing together, we're interested in healing things from the past.

And part of that viewpoint is that things will come up, like we've been talking

about in the previous two questions, anxious detachment, wounds from childhood,

past trauma, whatever it might be.

And that we see that even in our fights, these are opportunities for,

um, providing each other, a different experience in what we had in the past.

And so that might look like well, a lot of things we've been talking about in

this episode, really, being loving around.

something that was painful.

Cleaning it up when we mess up, you know, making an apology when that's warranted.

, whatever it might be that's like different than the experiences we've

had in the past in relationships.

That makes sense.

My things clearly.

It makes perfect sense to me.

I mean, what I'm hearing is that having a frame for conflict and what it's for, and

having that frame be about, we're in this together, this conflict is for healing.

It's a very different context from what I imagine is a lot of people's

frame for conflict, which is, this means something's wrong and, or

I need to make sure that I get my point across, or I, I protect myself.

And so that first frame puts you and your partner on the same.

Yeah.

exactly.

So it's gonna turn on more of that pro-social.

We're gonna take care of each other, part of your brain

and not the find the bad guy.

Protect yourself.

Yeah.

Yep.

Okay.

Let's talk about another communication tool that supports fair fighting.

Okay.

I statements.

We have a wonderful article about this that will link you to use I

statements that help you communicate your feelings and your needs rather

than , you statements tend to communicate judgements, blame, which tend to end well.

If

you

wanna see people, get defensive really quickly,

tell them

why they're wrong and, uh, how, uh, it's all their fault.

absolutely.

Yeah.

And so just for a brief example, an I statement versus a you statement,

I'm feeling really scared and anxious right now versus you really messed

Mm-hmm.

.Yeah.

Versus, uh, a sneaky you statement.

I feel like you really messed up

I feel like you're a jerk.

right?

No, no, no.

not actually a feeling.

Yeah, so there's some really important, nuance in how we use

these, which will link to that article cause it's, it's great.

This is maybe one of those skills that you wanna practice outside of.

yes.

Fighting, right, because it is a skillset because it takes some time

to get used to it and get used to some of the nuances , so that we can

do it well in those moments when it really counts, uh, like you're saying.

And we don't default to some of the, the less skillful ways of communicating.

Yes.

I love that you're emphasizing practice outside of these conflictual moments.

It's just like with safer sex.

You wanna talk about the ? I feel like this is gonna go

No, it's good.

I love it.

keep going.

there.

Go there.

You wanna talk about protection prior to being in

the middle of getting down?

Yeah.

Right?

Yeah.

It's hard to have these conversations clearly, or develop these skills well

when our brains are in an altered state, whether that's from lust or from anger or

anything else.

Yes.

Thank you for going on that journey with me.

always.

The, the next one on my list, which I think pairs really nicely with I

statements is reflective listening.

Yes,

And by this I mean, let me make sure I really understand what

you're saying, what you're feeling, what you're experiencing, what you're

thinking before I tell you what I think.

And so this, what this could look like, even if you just said,

say your eye statement again.

I'm feeling very sad and anxious.

Love, I, I really hear that you're, you're feeling

very sad and anxious right now.

Will you tell me what's going on?

Yes.

And so I'm, I'm adding here, obviously, to continue to,

to understand, I'm asking kind of exploratory questions to really know

why are you feeling sad and anxious?

What's, what's going on such that it's happening right now?

And then I would reflect, you know, maybe you say something else.

I don't know when I'm, Going to be able to finish this sentence.

So I, I really

hear that, uh, you,

you feel really

sad and anxious when you don't know

when you're gonna be able to finish this sentence.

Is that right?

It's hard.

Oh, sweetie.

Oh

Yeah.

just, I can see how that would be hard.

I like making sense.

Yeah.

But that's natural.

We all like making sense.

Yeah.

It's

hard.

when we think we're not making sense.

Yeah.

And so just like, even in that we're kind of, we're, we're being playful

here, but you get the sense I'm really interested in how is she feeling?

What's going on?

Rather than, well, it's not my fault,

Mm-hmm.

. Mm-hmm.

mean, you

leading with an I statement makes it much easier to respond that way.

I will say it's like if someone, if you were to say to me, I, I'm, yeah, you

you really messed up.

Yeah.

In that moment, I'm, I, my instinct is like, what, what, what the hell?

Like what?

Uh,

no, I didn't.

mm-hmm.

And even in that moment, it's a skillful moment to kind of deescalate

in that moment to say, oh, I really love to know what's going on.

I'm hearing you, you're pretty upset.

And you feel like I messed up in some way.

What happened?

What did I do?

So that we're starting to, unpack what's going on.

I'm aiming towards, let me make sure I really get it before I even

try to share my side of the story.

Yes.

important.

And I have the, couple's dialogue, which is from a mago therapy.

It is a structured version of reflective listening where both

people get to take turns being the listener, as well as the talk.

That's beautiful.

So we'll link to that.

And it includes places where you validate one another's emotions,

you empathize with their experience.

Uh, and it's one of my very favorite tools to use when helping couples kind

of get back on the same page again.

Does it include in their, uh, checking to see if you're,

you're reflecting correctly.

Yes.

Yeah.

I, I was just thinking about that.

That's such an important moment to be like, did I get

did I get it?

Yeah.

And it also often includes the question.

Is there more?

Love that.

That's perfect.

I mean, I, I think a lot of couples have probably had the experience

of, okay, I'm talking to my partner, but I wasn't able to get it all out.

Mm-hmm.

. Right.

And there's something so, uh, regulating about being able to name

all of the things that are happening.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And knowing that your partner isn't just waiting for their turn

Mm-hmm.

. Right, right.

Well talk about a great way to trigger some anxious attachment.

Yeah.

, the other person's like, are you, are you there?

Yeah.

Great.

So reflective listening.

And you can use a couple's dialogue specifically for that.

The other tool that I have is the four horsemen of the Apocalypse.

Antidotes.

Mm-hmm.

. So we've talked on the show before about Gottman's finding that there

are four things that couples who don't tend to last do in their

communication with one another.

Criticism, defensiveness, stonewalling, and contempt.

So there are antidotes to all of those.

I'll read them briefly and then we'll link them in the show notes.

One, A gentle startup, including using I statements.

Mm-hmm.

a positive need.

Building a culture of appreciation.

This goes back to what we were saying earlier of can you give those words of

affirmation, create a sense of gratitude.

Taking responsibility, accepting your partner's perspective, and offering

an apology for any wrongdoing, and then physiological self soothing.

This one is, I think, really helpful and important to name,

take a break and spend time doing something soothing and distracting.

If you've gotten to the place where neither of you can really be

grounded enough to have a productive conversation, our research shows that

20 to 30 minutes of doing something away from your partner, not focusing

on the conflict is the time that's typically needed to bring one's nervous

system back to a more regulated state.

The key with this, especially if you have an anxiously attached partner,

is that you have an agreement about when you're gonna come back together.

Yeah, that's so important.

. And, I wanna reassure all of, especially I think this probably comes up more

for our, our anxiously attached folks.

It's okay to take a break.

And I say that from my own experience.

Knowing it can be very uncomfortable.

It can feel like, no, we have to get this resolved now.

We're not gonna leave this until we're reconnected, until everything is okay.

And it can feel very uncomfortable, very scary or threatening to, to take a break.

Um, and, it's so useful.

Sometimes it's just like, so what?

You need to let your brain cool down a little bit so that other

parts of your brain can come online.

Your prefrontal cortex, you can think a little bit more clearly.

You can reason with your adult brain a little bit more effectively and see.

See solutions, see pathways, understand your partner's point

of view better, all of that

Absolutely.

sweet,

So, wheat, did you have one more?

Couples therapy,

yeah.

if

all else

fails.

And even before all those fails, frankly, you, you've probably heard us say it

before, we'll say it lots more times.

couples therapy early and often preventative rather

than a last ditch effort.

It's so valuable cause it gives you a place to practice some of these skills to

work through some of these tender moments with support of a skilled objective.

Third party.

Um, yeah.

Somebody who has their prefrontal cortex online, when both of

you don't, because you've gotten into those interlocking trigger moments.

It's how we do it.

As humans, we need, we need at least one prefrontal cortex,

at least a little bit online.

Just, just one, please.

Oh, beautiful.

Well, I, I think that does it for today.

I think so.

Well,

Well, I hope this was helpful for, for you, and you can find

the show notes for this episode with links to all the resources we

mentioned today@relationshipcenter.com slash podcast.

Yes.

And if you would like to win that free virtual t date with me and Josh,

remember to send us a screenshot of your Apple Podcast review to podcast

relationship center.com by May 9th, 2023.

And thank you so much in advance for leaving a review that helps us, uh,

reach other sweet humans like you.

If you have a question that you'd like us to answer on a future episode, go

to relationship center.com/podcast for instructions on how to do that.

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best to answer on our show.

Until next time.

We love you

We love you too.

Bye

Mel.

I feel happy that we have finished our show,

I hear that you feel happy about finishing our show,