Emmanuel LaRoche is the kind of person who makes you look at a vanilla bean, a jar of honey, or a tincan of caviar completely differently. He's a flavor industry insider, a podcaster, and now a two-time author, and this conversation genuinely changed how I think about the ingredients in my kitchen.

We talk about Emmanuel's fascinating journey from growing up in France, learning to cook quiche Lorraine from his mom, landing in the flavor and fragrance industry, and going to Madagascar for vanilla but staying for so much more.

Emmanuel's second book, A Taste of Madagascar, is part travel log, part ingredient deep-dive, and part love letter to the farmers, beekeepers, and entrepreneurs who rarely get credit for the extraordinary things we eat every day. He also shares what responsible food travel actually looks like, both in your own grocery store and halfway around the world, and why understanding where ingredients come from can genuinely change lives, including your own.

Upcoming Trips Mentioned:

1. Mexico City Foodie Tour Waitlist
2. Japan Waitlist

Links & Resources (Emmanuel)

1. Learn more: flavorsunknown.com
2. Podcast: Flavors Unknown
3. Book: A Taste of Madagascar
4. Conversations Behind the Kitchen Door
5. Instagram/Facebook/TikTok: @flavorsunknown
6. LinkedIn: Emmanuel LaRoche

Links & Resources (Laura)

1. Follow my personal IG: @lolawhiskey
2. Follow my business IG: @lauraericsongrouptrips
3. Follow our podcast IG: @type2travelpodcast
4. Learn more about upcoming trips: lauraericson.com
5. Check out our podcast page: lauraericson.com/podcast
6. Join my Facebook group: @lolalovestravel

Thanks for being here! As always, rate, review, share with a friend, and tag us if you're listening.

Hey everyone, welcome back to Type 2 Travel. I'm your host Laura Ericson, and today I'm sitting down with author and podcast host Emmanuel LaRoche. And I gotta tell you, I loved nerding out on my obsession with food and drinks around the world with a true culinary professional. Emmanuel is a flavor expert and culinary storyteller who went to Madagascar on what was supposed to be a simple business trip to source vanilla. Instead, he came back completely transformed. What he found there, from caviar production that feeds the island's poorest children,

to honey that's actually saving forests, moved him so deeply that he wrote an entire book about it. it's a beautiful exploration of how food can carry culture, hope, and real change for communities. What I love about Emmanuel's approach is that he doesn't just taste ingredients. He follows them back to the people growing them, the ecosystems protecting the traditions preserving them.

Born and raised in France, Emmanuel learned to cook at six years old with his mom in their kitchen in Lorraine, she taught him the sacred art of making a proper quiche. Now based in New Jersey, he travels constantly for podcast Flavors Unknown, he goes. We're talking about everything from our shared love of pink peppercorn to the amazing sushi in Tokyo.

while responsible tourism actually matters for forest And yes, we definitely got into a spirited debate about Wisconsin cheese curds versus French fromage. Emmanuel brings this perspective that I think we all need right now, that paying attention to where our food comes from and supporting the communities behind it isn't just about eating well.

it's about making the world a little bit better. So without further ado, let's chat with Emanuel.

Hey adventurers, I'm Laura Ericson and this is Type 2 Travel, where the journey might occasionally make you question your life choices, but the stories are always worth it. Just like Type 2 fun, we're diving into those travel experiences that transform us, challenge us, and connect us. So grab your passport and an extra dose of curiosity. Let's get lost together.

All right, Emanuel, welcome to the podcast. I'm excited to chat with you.

Lauren, thank you very much for having me. It's a pleasure speaking with you today.

So I always like to warm people up with some quick travel questions. So first question, what's the most unexpected ingredient you've ever tasted or discovered while traveling and where did you find it?

yeah.

Wow, the thing is that tastes so many ingredients in my life because that's part of my profession. that's a tough question for me. But

The place that I tasted in Madagascar was like they make a special beverage that is coming from scorched rice that is overcooked in a pot. And then they pour water into it and it turns into it's called a Rana Vola. It's their national beverage.

So it's looked brownish. It's not very appetizing. and then they drink that, all day long. It's good probably as well for, digestion and so on. So ⁓ it had a taste of, burnt rice caramel. So that was intriguing. So that's the things that comes to mind when, you ask the questions. But, I've tasted all kind of seafood, all kind of

other ingredients, all the, awful parts of, ⁓ animals and so on. not vegetarian. there's sometimes some weird stuff in France, the preparation of, you kill a pig and then, you collect the blood, freshly, after ⁓

Yeah.

to kill the animal and then you pump the heart, with the leg and then you have the blood that, comes out directly out of the heart. And ⁓ so that's impressive. And then, they made blood sausage directly out of it. So that's maybe the one that was because I was a kid and that was ⁓ very, very impressive, for me at that time. I was very, impressed by that.

Yeah,

my gosh. So I think you'll have an answer for this one, but if you could have dinner anywhere in the world right now, not for the location, but for the food itself, where would you go and what would you eat?

Yeah, no

hesitation. I'm taking the flight to Japan and I'm going to Tokyo or I'm going to ⁓ Osaka. Tokyo because I think the sushi over there are no comparison with what we can taste here, in the US. And then Osaka because the street food in Japan is amazing. And I, when I went there with my younger son, we, always

did like a dad, son or dad-daughter trip. And I took my youngest son to Japan and it was probably one of our best, trip and together. And I discovered the street food from Japan that, we knew about the sushi or ramen, and all the things, but street food was really amazing.

I support your answer. I went to Japan for the first time in 2024, think. I always say my two favorite countries for food are probably Greece and Japan, which Greece I feel like, it probably doesn't rise to the top. Japan seems more obvious, but I think Greek food is just phenomenal. But Japanese food and like Tokyo, you can find literally anything. And it's amazing. I don't think I had a bad meal in Japan.

Okay.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

For sure.

No, no, me neither. I mean, I can, can really, I enjoy food like everywhere and there. And, for me it's a way as well to connect with, the culture and with people. I just came back from Mexico City last week and which is for me another fantastic food destination on the Northern Americas, you know, and I would say central Northern American part. And yeah, there's, you know, for me,

Mmm.

close my eyes and I'm like, a two nato stata that, you know, yes, I'm going for that tonight. It's fantastic too.

Yeah, I offer a tour in Mexico City and I normally do it for Day of the Dead and I've retired it after 2025 and now I'm gonna bring it back as a foodie tour. you eaten at Pujol in Mexico City?

⁓ cool, yeah.

Of course,

yes, yes. I've been to Pujol and I've been as well to his more casual restaurant called El Molino Pujol, which is one of my stops. Because Pujol is great, but you have to open your wallet for that. But yeah, pricey.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, pricey and it's

extensive. You've got to set aside three or four hours to have

It is. But if

you want to have the most accessible food coming from his team and so on, El Molino Pujol is a great place to go. It's very casual and the food is amazing too.

Yeah.

Good to know. I'll add that to my list. been to Peugeot like five times, I would like to, I need to go to Mexico City just for fun, just to eat. Not for work. All right, what is your favorite French food?

Yeah.

Yeah, true.

my favorite French food. Good one. think it's probably simple because in fact, I love to cook myself and I've spent a lot of time in the kitchen since I'm a kid with my mom, who obviously passed away many years back. But she told me how to, when I was probably seven or eight, to...

prepare a quiche Lorraine because she was from the Lorraine area, so from scratch. at seven years old, I knew how to make the crust for a tart and the quiche. And she was very specific about the fact that there's only certain ingredients that you can use. Of course, I love to create things. so several years after I was making all the ingredients, I've done some with...

Mmm.

fresh salmon and smoked salmon or and then with a bit of goat cheese and so on and she was like That is not a quiche. I don't know what it is, but that's not a quiche Because it's not traditional. But yeah, but so I that's that's what I will do. It's something easy for me It's like I don't have to think about it and I can I can bring some other influence So so even Japanese influence making like, quiche. So so yeah

Right?

Yeah,

I think that is the great thing about food though. Like you can obviously do everything the traditional way. I have a friend who is a recently had her on the podcast, she's half Moroccan, half Tunisian. And her stepmother taught her how to cook, but she wants her to do it, her way And there's one way to do it right. Whereas I would say she cooks more fusion.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

exactly.

Yeah. Absolutely.

and like inspiration from different cultures and

her stepmother does not want to accept that it's okay, like, but both things can exist and be good, you know.

Exactly.

And there's a moment for both things. know, it's like there's a moment I want to have, traditional French food. go back to France. I had the chance to travel back maybe at least once a year. My oldest son decided to go back. I go there. have my brother's sisters, and I went to Burgundy to see my sister. And then, she's going to prepare like a traditional poulet à la crème, the chicken with a cream sauce.

with mushrooms and so on. It's very traditional, but I love it. then after that, I need to try something else. So that's the beauty of global influences today.

Absolutely. is a random question, but what's your favorite French wine?

Sure.

I would say probably I love Pinot Noir. So like Burgundy for me is going to be probably the place. And then I love as well, how easy it is to go to ⁓ different, areas over there and meet with the people and discuss with them. are.

Same.

They are very accessible. There's other regions of France I will not mention that are a bit more snobbish and more difficult, ⁓ when sometimes there's a lot of chateaux. So it's a different vibe. Like it's the same here in the US. You I love to go to William Ed Valley, ⁓ in Oregon for Pinot Noir or sometimes... ⁓

Mm-hmm.

I love Sonoma for instance, sometimes Napa is a little bit too stiff for me.

Mm-hmm. That makes sense. Yeah, I'm a big wine person too. know if your answer is gonna be France, but what is your favorite country for wine?

No, I'm not that kind of person that says my answer would be France for everything. Not at all. I think my favorite region. So I think it will be different. Depends. So for whites, I like the Sauvignon Blanc from New Zealand.

And then I like, the Pinot Noir from Oregon. So in fact, I've never ever been part of like a wine club, from a wine place, but it happens now I am a member of a club, it's called Aloro and it's a Pinot Noir from Oregon. So, and yeah, so.

Hmm.

But I love Malbec from Latin America. I will love some Vionier from France on the white wine. So I don't like to too much money on wine. I like to explore wine that is accessible and discover new things.

Interesting.

Yeah.

Same. Yeah,

I'm not into natural ones though. One of my friends

I think... No. No?

here in the US is very much into natural ones and I have hard time with some of them with these very fermented notes that are too potent for me. you know, that's maybe my... I show my age with a natural You like them? You do like them?

Mm. Mm-hmm.

It's not as traditional. I'd run it.

I like, yes, I like all wines, honestly, as long as it's not too sweet. I mean, not that I can't have like a nice like dessert wine or a port or something like that, like keep Moscato away from me. I don't want fruit, fruit wines generally I don't like. I had a bad experience with port once that has.

yeah, same.

Yeah, I don't like sweet wine either. Port, I cannot like port either, I have hard time.

changed my opinion of it forever because I didn't realize the alcohol content in port is not the same as regular wine. So pro tip for anyone listening. But yeah, I'm like you. think wine, I bet you know more about this than I do, but there's a lot of marketing behind wine that probably influences the price, and I think there's a certain price point where wine is kind of all the same. And then, you have to spend a lot probably for a really good bottle.

Ha

Nope.

Yeah,

or I guess that's maybe, you know, I am not enough of an expert to appreciate, the nuances and so on. So I can leave that to them. for me, it's all about, appreciation and having a good moment, you know, with a glass of wine in the hands, a good book or watching a show or a movie.

Yeah.

Yeah, all good company and here we go.

Absolutely.

I always say that if you're gonna have a good bottle, first bottle needs to be the good bottle. After that, it's like, that's when you take out the cheaper wine and you don't really care that much after one bottle. last question for you, fill in the blank. You thought you hated blank until you tried it in blank.

Yeah.

sure.

The thing is, probably is like, when it comes to food, there's not a lot of things. yeah, so I have to say that's probably the one I have hard time with is, what's the name of it? It's like the Italian, it's an Italian vegetable, come on, with an anise flavor. my gosh,

He

You like it all?

Yeah, fennel, thank you. So I thought I didn't like fennel until I tried it, in stuffing from like a ravioli from an Italian restaurant. And I do not remember the restaurant now, but here in the US.

No?

and he was prepared a certain way and he was roasted and he was a part of the stuffing of a ravioli. And I was like, oh my gosh, it changed my mind about fennel. before as soon as I see fennel and all that, so fennel in the menu, would say, okay, no, I'm going to skip that dish. And now I'm like, okay, yeah.

You're like, nope.

You can make maybe an exception and try it because you had a good experience.

Yeah, preparation

matters. think my answer to this, have two. One is like, I'd say my go-to, I eat everything, but my go-to thing that I generally don't love unless there's a really great preparation is beets, which beets I think are pretty polarizing. Like people kind of love or hate and I'm one of those people that think they kind of taste like dirt, but I have good beet preparation in a salad or something where.

Okay, yeah, Sure. Sure. That's, yeah.

That's

a good example because I was raised when I was a kid with a mom that was kind of like boiling the heck out of the beat and then I have hard time. Yes, it had this earthy notes and dirt notes and whatever. And maybe when you're kid, it's more difficult to accept it. And then now here, I'm moving to the US, long time after, obviously. And then it became the trend to have those...

Yeah.

fresh beets, in salads, like the red one and the yellow one and so on, and cocktails too. And I'm like, my gosh, this is good. So yeah, the preparation is definitely important for sure.

Mm-hmm. And cocktails? They're everywhere.

Yeah,

beats up in having a moment. would say my other like more traditional answer to this is escargot. I would say that's a that's a food that I think people think they don't like just because of what it is. Yeah, but I think a lot of times people think they don't like it just because, the idea of it. And then if they actually tried it, I'm like, how could that not be good? It's in butter and garlic. Like it's.

and it's a texture too, you know.

Yeah, idea of it.

Exactly, that's what

it is. know, it's butter, garlic, parsley. So that aspect helped a lot. know, combo helps a lot. But it's still, it has this, it's a little bit chewy texture and some, some people have a hard time, but, yeah, the taste is good. Yeah. You would have asked me the question, what's your favorite things on the menu? That it's easy for me. I cannot resist if I have foie gras, duck or scallops. So if I have like any of

bread like

Yeah. Yeah.

any preparation and there's one of those on the menu that's my order.

sign you up you're ready.

Okay, let's get into Madagascar, which I know very little about actually and I think probably most people probably think a certain movie, right? All right, so...

Yeah.

like a lot of people, so you're not the one, the only one. movie. Yes, exactly. That's what I said when I,

in fact, sorry to interrupt, but when I talked to people and I said at the beginning that I was riding a boot, but Madagascar, they said, the movie? And I'm like, no, no, no, this is, I'm talking about the country. I said, what do mean? This is a country? I'm like, yeah, this is the fourth largest island on the planet. I'm like, are you kidding? look at your globe.

hehe

your map,

I bet a lot of people think, based on a movie, they probably just associate Madagascar with animals. So it'll be, it'll be interesting to learn some other things about Madagascar from you. So, all right, so let's get into it. So before we get into Madagascar itself, ⁓ let's just understand a little bit about your relationship with food. So you were born and raised in You learned to cook from your mother at a young age. How did those early memories in the kitchen shape you?

Your map,

Sure, lemurs, yeah.

I'll try, I'll

Yep.

Yep.

and shape your path to where you are today working in the food industry.

Yeah, good question. So ⁓ I think it's it happens, randomly. So, when I had to pick like a study to to pursue, I picked by elimination and then I ended up doing chemistry. So I had a master of chemistry. then after that, I decided I want to understand business. So I did an MBA with marketing. And then I was living in the south of France at that time. So in the south of East

you know, near Nice, there's a town called Grasse, G-R-A-S-S-E, which is kind of like the hub for fragrance and flavors, industry. my chemistry professor was able to get me an internship to validate my MBA at a flavor fragrance company. And I was on the flavor side.

And suddenly I found a world that I had no idea. But it was kind of the intersection of chemistry, but a passion for food because you need to understand the trends, what's happening in food, in beverage and so on. And then there was as well an international scene, so potentially opportunity to travel. all

In fact, when I went to Wisconsin after that, the company sent me a year to Wisconsin and then I loved the experience in the US and I said, okay, I will come back one day. But the idea is that I'm in this industry since, that time and every day different and I can, combine my passion for all those elements, that I mentioned and I had the chance to

Dang, rough job, huh?

no conversation with behind the kitchen door in 2022.

Yeah, that sounds like a fun job. So you're working on the flavor side of food. So is there training for this? Are you training like a sommelier but for food? How does this work?

Yep.

No, mean, so the people that are in fact creating the flavors, yes, I mean, they are like the equivalent of like the, nose, the perfumers, you know, in fragrance, you have people that are trained to understand, you know, the chemistry of food and the molecules that are, in aromatic, how to put together a formulation that are

⁓ based on what the nature can give you. So there's 400 molecules in the strawberry flavor, for instance, and you need to understand how to put it together. You need to understand how to work with onion farmers in order to help them to have the maximum yield in order to be able to do the maximum extraction as an onion extracts, because onion is the base for all culinary preparation. Or you need to know how to work with

vanilla farmers in Madagascar because 80 % of the production of vanilla beans come from Madagascar. So you need to be able to work with them in order to make sure that you collect the green beans when this is the time for harvest and you have to extract the vanillin from the beans. Or you work with citrus growers in Argentina or Brazil.

or the south of Italy and then you extract, grapefruit extracts, lemon extracts, orange extracts, you know, from the peel, other components. So pretty cool job. And there's a lot of people that are, behind the scene. A lot of people don't know that. But if you buy a product on the supermarkets, that says, ⁓ natural flavors, natural extracts.

there's a company like ours, behind the scene that's, seasoning for chips, when you buy barbecue chips, the barbecue seasoning is not done by the chip manufacturer is done by a company like ours that sells to, the chip manufacturers and they put the barbecue seasoning on the chips. so those people are the cool people. I'm just like in charge of marketing to,

Hmm.

you know, engage with the customers to make them buy our product.

Interesting. So do you get invited to a lot of restaurants to do proper tastings? I mean, you're not a restaurant critic or like a food critic, but

No, no,

no, but what happened is that it's very important in our business to understand the food trends. So what's new, what's going on, what's next. so we connect with chefs and pastry chefs and mixologists because they the people that are creating like new experiences. And then potentially those are going to be taken by the media.

emphasized by the media and after that could end up into inspire something in food service, you know, in a chain or then later be ⁓ developed as a new product in retail, in supermarkets. So in order to stay connected, it's very with what's new and what's happening, it's good to be in contact with the chefs. So that's what I try to do.

Mm-hmm.

and connect and bring our customers to trend tracks. You were talking before that you have done some testing or tracks in Mexico City. And so we do that professionally with our customers.

So like ⁓ Umami, for example. I feel like Umami's been having a moment, but probably continuing to have a moment in the future.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Absolutely. Yeah, smoke, has had a big trends, like Umami, but you see, see, not the idea of mixology, for instance, like the younger generation, in fact, do not want to drink alcohol to the same level than, previous generations. They love, more non-alcoholic cocktails. So you see now so much, so many

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

menus, from bars having the non-alcoholic section. It used to be, not too long ago, that you could have like a Virgin Margarita or whatever. Now it has, you know, this same creativity level than you used to find on the alcoholic version of a cocktail, so which is really cool.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Absolutely.

I was just looking up liquor companies this morning. Well, cause one, I live in Wisconsin, but I was looking for sponsors for our summer camp. And I was actually kind of surprised that the liquor company that I pulled up, the distributor, their whole thing was all about NA beverages on their front page. But then I realized it's dry January, right? So they're smart. So they were highlighting all of the different NA beverages.

Yeah, exactly. That's true.

That's the marketing. Yeah, absolutely.

for January, because that's not

Yeah.

what I would expect to see on a liquor company's main page. my friend was just saying her husband worked in the alcohol industry until recently because he felt like the company he worked with was not adapting to the fact that a lot of people aren't drinking as much anymore at drinking alcohol and that the industry does need to adapt and keep up with offering other things. And the company he was working for wasn't willing to do it. They just wanted double down on the alcohol.

sure.

Sure, yeah.

Alright, so take us back to your first trip to Madagascar. You went there originally for vanilla. What were your expectations versus what you actually found and experienced?

Yeah, so what happened is that I organized like a vanilla contest because we were promoting like a vanilla extracts and I organized a competition with, a lot of French chefs and mixologist and pastry chefs and about maybe 80 plus, participated. And the idea is I will take the three winners closer to the source of vanilla in Madagascar. So I took Elisabeth Faulkner.

Los Angeles, and then Michael Gulotta, who is a chef in New Orleans, and then Shannon Teebay, who is a mixologist at that time, was the beverage director, or he was just finishing the beverage director at Death & Company in Manhattan. And yeah, we went for vanilla. And ⁓ so I think that's what really... ⁓

intrigued us is that we were expecting to find everything vanilla, know, over there, smell vanilla, walking around on the streets or, hearing what people will do with vanilla. And in fact, I've seen none of that, in the capital or anywhere. And then we went to the northeast part of the islands, which is the...

gold triangle regions for vanilla where most of the vanilla in the world, grows. And we talked to farmers and, after discussing with them at the end, said, okay, so, you know, explain to us how do you use vanilla? And they looked at us and they say, what do you mean? We don't. And say, what do mean you don't? Say, oh no, this is like, money for us. This is income and everything is exported.

So 99 % of the vanilla is exported in the world and there's no culture of vanilla from a culinary standpoint or gastronomic standpoint. So they said, hey, maybe we have tried to put it into some desserts and it's fine. But for them, which is really for me the big moment was that there's so much craft in the way how vanilla

grows in Madagascar, which people don't know it's like hand pollinated because because vanilla comes from Mexico originally, but then there it's pollinated by an insect. But that insect never survive outside of Mexico. So when the French, in fact, took vanilla into other places around the world and tried to cultivate it, it never produced vanilla until

Mmm.

Mm-hmm.

The legend says that there is a slave in the Komaro Island, in the Indian Ocean, by accident pressed the different parts of the orchid flower and then it produced the beans a little bit after. Then they tried to retrace what happened and then they decided that, my gosh, so we have to do it ourselves by hand.

They hand pollinated now. so every morning during the season, which is usually September and October, you have the women that are doing this early in the morning. Why women? Because they have a little bit more like thin fingers and they are hand pollinating and each flower is going to produce beans. So there's that step and then there is the, until it's the harvest. And then after that, this is the curation of the beans. So, we have learned that

maybe the bean that you and I know that we are enjoying in our kitchen, maybe 40 people in Madagascar touched that bean because they did all the process and they sorted them and processed them and packed them and so on. So I have a complete different appreciation for those ingredients that are coming from different parts of the world. Obviously the one that I talk about in my book from Madagascar.

And now I probably look at them differently, take care of them differently. before it's like, okay, one of the bean is dry. I can throw it away in the garbage. No big deal. Now it's like, I've seen what it means for those people over there and the farmers. So they are wrapped in plastic and put them into a tin can and I keep them moist, and pay attention to the ingredients. for me, the change is really the way how I look at those ingredients.

And I think I have experienced the human value and the human dimension behind those ingredients when I was there.

Absolutely. feel like once you see firsthand an ingredient go from, a field or you get to pick it yourself and you get to see that whole process that brings it to what we're used to eating or drinking. It's a totally different perspective. When you're talking about vanilla and maybe think of Columbia with coffee I remember when I the first time I was in Colombia and they were picking out the beans and I was like, what are they doing? And they're like,

Well, all the good beans, they leave Columbia. Those are for, everyone else to drink. And the bad beans, those are the ones that we give to the Colombians. And I was like, what? you have some of the best coffee in the world at your disposal and you're not drinking it, but they don't have the coffee culture that we have in other parts of the world and in the United States. I think that's changing maybe a little bit with like younger.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

sure.

Yeah, yeah, it does, for sure. Yeah, yeah.

younger Colombians in bigger cities and stuff like that. generally,

the Colombians are not the ones enjoying the infamous Colombian coffee.

So what changed for you? You went to Madagascar obviously for vanilla, but you learned about more than just ingredients. When did it shift from sourcing an ingredient to understanding a whole culture and just becoming fascinated with Madagascar?

Yeah, think it's, as I said, to people that have engaged, in conversations when I came back, it's the idea that I went for vanilla and I think I stayed and came back because of other ingredients like pink peppercorn, which is amazing over there, which I discovered Madagascar is the second world producer of pink peppercorn after Brazil. Yeah, after Brazil. Yeah.

Love pink

Second.

So, and I didn't know that and I had the chance on my third trip to go to the region, which is on the Southeast part of the island. And it was in May last year and 2025 and I had the chance to be there at the peak of the harvest. So that was again an amazing experience. But so I went back so for like the pimpepper corn, they have as well endemic black pepper that's only grows there. It's not.

find in another place of the world. There is, honey, huge selection of honey because there's unique biodiversity on the islands on, fluorine fauna that you cannot find anywhere else in the world. So you have mangrove honey, have lychee honey, ⁓ you have primary forest honey and so on. And then the one that really

mesmerized me was because I was not expecting it is in fact I found caviar in Madagascar and in fact this is the first sturgeon farm in the Indian Ocean and they produce like 11 tons of caviar so you can find it in Europe they are doing starting the exportation here in the US but it's a fantastic note

And at that time I had made the decision to write my second book on Madagascar because of everything I discovered. Not only the ingredients, but as well the people that are behind those ingredients and the fact that for me it was important to celebrate entrepreneurs, farmers, beekeepers, know, really companies that are giving back to the local communities. It was something very important for me because

And he helped me to meet with the right people, the right farmer, the beekeepers, the entrepreneurs. And on my second trip, did, I think, 18 interviews in two weeks in the north part of the island. My friend took those days off to take me to old places that otherwise I would never have had the chance to discover on my own. And all of that ended up into

Mmm.

book. for me, what I've changed is the fact that it came from a discovery trip, really that was business trip. And all those stories and human stories had such an impact on me that I decided to say, you know what, I need to share that with a lot of people and the best way of doing that is for me to write a book. And that's what I did. So that's how A Taste of Madagascar was created.

That's awesome. I feel like so many times when I travel like you, go for a certain reason, but then you fall in love with the place, but you I think even more so fall in love with the people and To me, the people make the place. Like every time.

Absolutely.

Yeah. And that's what you keep.

That's the memories. Because yes, it's great to go somewhere. You have a checklist of places to go. Obviously, I wanted to see the Baobab Black Alley because that was something iconic for me. So it's the Tree of Life. And there's plenty of it on the west coast of the island. Being from France, I've seen this because being from the 60s in the

cool book, know, geographic book. had, I've seen those and they were kind of magical for me. So, so when I had the chance to go to Madagascar, I'm like, okay, check. need to go there. you know, cause of nostalgia moment. so that's fine. Absolutely. So you need to do that. But what will remain is in fact, all those connection that I've made with, the individuals, the people, people that became friends because that's

the only way to discover the true soul of a region or a country here for Madagascar.

Yeah, not gonna lie, I just learned for the first time that caviar is from sturgeon. I mean, I knew it was obviously fish eggs, I didn't know it was specifically sturgeon, but I just went to a sturgeon farm in Georgia. Have you been to Georgia? Yeah.

really? Okay.

Yeah, it's a storage run. Yeah. Yeah.

Georgia the country or ⁓

yeah yeah no no I haven't been to Georgia I've been to the Georgia states but not the country

okay.

Okay,

you're a foodie, you need to put Georgia on your list. Absolutely. But we went to a sturgeon farm in Georgia and the sturgeon was like absolutely fabulous. And then I also, you got me really excited with the pink peppercorns because I love pink peppercorn.

Yeah, yeah, true, true, true, yeah.

Yeah?

Yeah,

I have to tell you a story on this, is that Michael Guilota, who is the chef from New Orleans, you know that, obviously, peppercorn in his cookie.

when he discovered the peppercorn in Madagascar, he was blown away. He talked about Pimp peppercorn the whole trip and he said, I don't know how I'm going to be able to use the same Pimp peppercorn back home because that profile that is some citrusy notes of that fresh peppercorn in Madagascar was really unique. yeah, so that you should try to find it. I'm sure we can find some because...

As being the second producer, I'm sure there's Pink Peppercorn with Madagascar origin here in the US.

Yeah, I'm gonna have to find it. I think I just recently brought some home from Albania. In Albania, my favorite thing, I had it, almost every day. It was sea bass carpaccio with pink peppercorns. Like amazing, amazing.

Mm-hmm.

⁓ yeah.

Yes,

absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.

⁓ this is just another random question. So you come home from a trip, what food goodies do you bring home with you every time?

in general, you mean. On general, okay, not Madagascar

In general, like any like I have

things I specifically grab everywhere I am and I would say half my suitcase is food and wine when I come home.

Oh yeah,

⁓ okay.

1200 cookbooks.

Like during the break, had book sack everywhere. said, I had to find an awesome solution. So I found a sixth level kind of rotation, you a structure, whatever. And now that's it. They all there. But, my daughter said, yeah, dad, until you, you bring, more back. So, so no, never. Yeah. I mean, I, I flipped them. I, I look at them and, and, you know, yeah, it's, it's research work as

gosh.

Time to stop.

No. Do you use them all?

So yeah, yeah, it's, I love it.

And so that's for sure that. And then after that, there's going to be whatever is important in the country. So like Madagascar brought back pink peppercorn, honey, chocolate, because cocoa, there's a unique cocoa as well quality over there. the endemic black pepper, obviously. And then.

Otherwise I will bring... I came back from Mexico City so I have obviously mezcal bottles with me. it all depends. It could be ⁓ spice blends. But if I go somewhere I love bourbon as well so I will bring a bottle of bourbon.

Mm-hmm.

jam. That's a good one. I just got back from... yeah. I like to gift food to people. It's my favorite. I have a love-hate relationship with bringing food home because obviously like you want to savor it and you you want it to last and but you also need to use it up and so it's not a souvenir that...

It could be jam, you know, yeah. Coffee, coffee beans for sure. So.

Yeah.

like last forever, like a piece of art on your wall. But also it is so nice to be able to use those ingredients to recreate something. last week I was, I would just got back from Cuba. I go to Cuba all the time and I, I've been making all the Cuban cocktails that we make in Cuba. Cause I always say when I get home, you know, I'm going to make this and then I get busy and I just move on with my life. So I've been trying to actually make the drinks and get used to. So I brought home Cuban, Cuban honey.

Okay.

Sure, sure, and Cuba is great for sure.

Cuban rum,

Yeah.

cigars, all the illegal things. ⁓

Sure. Maybe

you should not say it too loud.

Yeah, they're coming after me.

This fall though, I did a six week trip all over Europe and I don't know how much food I brought home with me. I had so many spices. I had sea salt from Donegal, Ireland and I had all the Georgian spices and the Moroccan spices and ⁓ my gosh, my suitcase smelled like amazing and awful at the same time. then I...

yeah.

Cool. Nice. Yeah.

Yeah, because

all the mix of smell for sure. Yeah.

Yeah, and I definitely brought

beyond the legal limit of wine home for sure, and I need to need to drink all of that so you talk about how ingredients can carry culture, hope, change. How do you break that down? How does something like caviar or honey do all of that?

Ha

⁓

So yeah, very good question. And that's something that I really tried to feature in the book because that's for me part of the story. And especially when you mentioned Caviar and then you mentioned Madagascar. So it's like a luxury good with like one of the poorest country in the world. And you're like, hmm, how that can happen? And in fact, which is great and why I decided to... ⁓

feature them in the book, it's % of the workforce is from Madagascar. And so it's like three French people, a couple and their best friend, they created this. They decided to go into that industry. They identify like a pristine water lake in Madagascar that was ideal for the sturgeon.

⁓ And then they had a textile manufacturing. So they had already a footprint in the country. And ⁓ they had already people that were working in the textile company. Why I mention this is because those people working there had children and those French owner...

gave the possibility to, because of income and so on, and assisting the worker to bring those kids into school and educations. And they graduated from college. And some of them went into aquaculture education and so on. now you have those people that are having, those children now are adults and they are

⁓ having senior leadership position in the sturgeon farm. So which I thought it was a great story because it was giving back 80 % of those workers and as well manager from the island. So giving jobs, that's one thing. The second thing is that obviously to produce caviar, you need to kill the sturgeon. So this means there's fish now available.

And what they do is two things, is that they give the fish that have been sacrificed for sturgeon production into these two villages around the farm. And they are given to people that are selling it. that is income and as well it's food for people. And then there's an orphanage in the capital, which is not too far away, which is an hour and a half drive from the sturgeon farm.

Hmm

they realized being in contact with that orphanage that the kids, the children didn't have access to a lot of animal protein on a regular basis. So they decided to donate, part of the fish, as, ingredients, for the food, for the schools and everything. So it gives, you know, that protein intake to the orphanage.

So I thought it was like a great story to talk about because from like a luxury ingredients that is going to end up into the plates of people around the globe that have the means to spend on caviar, then this is given back to local community, give jobs to Malagasy people and as well food to ⁓ orphans and people living in the nearby villages.

Mm-hmm.

That's awesome. I don't even know because I've never bought caviar, but what does caviar cost on average in the United States or France?

I have, you know what, it's good question because I don't, I mean, I mean, have bought some, but I don't think I have bought like a whole, like an ounce or whatever, you know, of caviar. Usually I have it in the menu, but maybe it's like, I don't know, like 2000 euro a kilo, maybe I think. I have a memory like this, you know, something like this. So yeah, it's expensive.

I've never ordered it.

So it's expensive, but now you know why. Because it's...

Now, yeah, you know why? So why as well is because the sturgeon is not going to produce the egg to collect as caviar before six years. So they have to be six years old. So that means that it's an investment, know, during six years you have nothing. So, you have to... Yeah, exactly. Yes. Those pets, yes.

Mmm.

You have to take care of those pets for six years. the food industry

is beautiful and brutal at the same time.

For sure,

for sure. But yeah, so that's really for me a way. Another example would be probably the beekeepers because there's a lot of education to show how to farmers, how to diversify their income, which usually the easy way for them is to produce charcoal from...

Uh-huh.

⁓ you know, wood in the forest. So, unfortunately, it participated to like the deforestation with the production of charcoal, which is the source of energy and heat and, know, and all of that. So, in order to try to limit the deforestation situation, then they have educated farmers to, install hives, on their land.

And if they install enough, which is not a big number, but maybe 20 hives, for instance, they can definitely have a very decent income, which allows them to stop producing charcoal. Because what they have by selling the honey will have much more income. So I thought that it's a great story. Great story because the honey quality and the variety of honey are.

really exceptional and the diversity as well. And then at the same time, it's a good story of ⁓ giving more income to the local farmers and limiting, deforestation.

Yeah, that really brings me to my next question. So what does responsible tourism mean to you in the context of Madagascar? What should travelers be thinking about before they go if they're going to visit?

I think there's twofold in your question because you don't have to travel there first to be more responsible. I think the idea is that and doesn't have to come from Madagascar, but I think any of us needs to be more responsible and understanding where your ingredients come from.

And then being more responsible. Yes, I know it takes a bit more time. Sometimes you have to pay a little bit more money, but it has an impact on someone else's life. The idea even like here in the US, going to do your buying your vegetables and fruits into like a farmer's market, and engage with the farmers, try to understand where it's coming from. I think it's important, eating more with the season because

Mm-hmm.

the season help you to get produce that are going to be in peak of their, you know, harvest. So the food is going to be better. So I think already for me, this is the first step. And then the idea is that when you look into and shop for specific ingredients, try to understand the story behind the company that you are taking this or buying this product from. Try to understand how do they...

Do they raise the animals if it's an animal source or how do they grow their ingredients and produce their ingredients? Are they fair with the employees? I think all of that is important and sometimes it doesn't take a lot of research just to Google and see what it is. So that's part of respecting where the ingredients come from and the human story behind the ingredients.

So that's one aspect. And the other part of your questions is for Madagascar. And I think for Madagascar people need to understand that, you know, it's not close. So you have to fly most of the time through Paris. So it's like, if you are in New York area like me, it's eight hours to Paris, and then it takes 10 hours from Paris to enter an Arrivo as a direct flight. So, you know, it takes time to go there. It's a journey.

Mmm.

Mm-hmm.

And then after that, think that you need to make sure that you do your homework before because it's not a country that you can say, okay, I'm going there and I'm going to rent a car and I'm going to go around. That's what I wanted to do on my first trip after I've done the business, I decided to stay an extra week. And I said that to my colleagues that work there and I'm like, oh, no, no, no, no, you're not doing this. There's too much risk. So you have to...

Mm-hmm.

you have to take a car with a driver, and a local driver that is going to take care of you and ⁓ make sure that for security reasons, because there's still risk. All the roads are not in good condition, so you have a lot of dirt road. There's bandits that you can cross pathways. I was lucky enough to.

But you know, it's good to do all that exercise and then as well if you want then to do some ingredients traveling, you can go to the northwest part of the island where this is all the cocoa plantations that are there and then you can cross on the other side of the north which is a beautiful, really recently remade road. So it's great. And then you go on the east, northeast, which is the Vanilla. So you can do like a

Coco Vanilla Story. In the book, have in fact mentioned an agency which is a local tourist agency that can help you put a trip like this in place for not a lot of money. But then you have the security and then there are people that you can trust and as well that is going to bring you to places that you can really experience.

When you are in the Coco area, there's a little island not too far from there. It's called Nosy Bay. And you can as well there admire the plantation of Ilong Ilong, which is a gold color flower that grow on a tree. And this is really well known because it's the main ingredients from channel number five.

Mmm.

and they

are the, that island produce most of the ilang-ilang ⁓ for the world's perfumery.

Interesting. Those were great tips. So while you're talking about your book, this is your second book. Why don't you tell us a little bit about it and your other book and your podcast? What are you up to these days?

you know, the book, yes, it's my book, it's like really a combination of a travel log with an ingredients and storytelling about human behind, these ingredients. So it's structured as almost a tasting menu. You have a chapter per ingredient. So there's a chapter on vanilla, on cocoa, on honey, on spices, and so on.

There's one on as well the ingredients used in perfumery. So, Ilangiland, Vetiver and Patchouli. ⁓ And so, and then there's the travelogue because what I wanted to do is like for each of those ingredients I wanted to give the context of where they are coming from and that island which is the size of Texas in fact ⁓ have different landscape and I thought it was good to

Mm.

describe a little bit the context of where those products could be found and then the story of those human behind those ingredients. So that's what the book is about. It's going to be published on February 17. It's already ready for pre-order, but people can have access to it wherever they buy book online or of course in their bookstore.

So this is like a great book. There's a lot of pictures, know, colored pictures in the book, so people can experience the trip at the same time while they are flipping through the pages, reading the pages. And I have a QR code at the end of the book where, in fact, ⁓ they have access to a playlist on Spotify.

Because when I was there, I love the multiple aspects and the different senses. So what I did is during my three trips, I have asked all the people that I've met, local people, to give me what were their five favorite songs from local artists. And I created a playlist that's if you want to experience the sound of Madagascar. You see it's in Malagasy, so you will not understand the lyrics. But at least you will have the vibe while you are.

Mmm.

reading the book. So that's what the book is about. My first book, Conversations Behind the Kitchen Door, published in 2022, is really about the culture of food in the US. I think that I decided to write it because every time I was going back to France, my family and friends were saying like, you know, you have that podcast and you talk about food and, but why it's, it's the US and they only eat like burger and

pizza and hot dog and there's no culture of food. I'm like, ⁓ my, so I need to change that picture. So that was really the drive to write the first book and base with all my conversations with the chefs and pastry chefs and mixologist on the podcast, plus all my personal experience of tasting food around the country, around the U S. And I said to them, if you spend

Mm-hmm.

the same amount of time doing the research, what to visit when you come to the US or where to eat, then you will discover that there's much more than fast food culture in the US. So that's what the book is about. It's talking about the creative process of a chef in the kitchen behind the bar. It's learning of as well some maybe leadership.

That's awesome. I'm just Googling all of this while you're talking. looks... Is your Madagascar playlist, is it on Spotify?

Ha ha ha!

Yes it is on Spotify, yeah yeah, absolutely.

Well, if you want to share it, I will post it in our show notes. you want people to, I'll make sure to link your book in your podcast as well. ⁓ So as we're running on it.

Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I

Cool.

Awesome. Well, congratulations on that. I hope your official launch is success. As we're wrapping up here, we're going to play a little game. So this is going to be this or that. So I'm going to give you two options and you have to pick one without thinking. Just give me your first instinct. Okay. First one is street food or fine dining. Good answer. Sweet or savory? Agreed.

Thank you very much.

Yeah, thanks.

Aha!

Sure.

Yeah? Okay.

straight food.

Savory.

Coffee or tea? We are three for three so far. Cooking with locals or eating at a local restaurant?

coffee. ⁓

Cooking with Locals.

Salt or pepper.

or it's a tough one because salt is such like emphasize like the profile of food and if you have no salt you cannot enjoy food. So for me it would have to be salt first because otherwise with no salt no enjoyment. But you know I love black pepper but I have to answer salt.

That is hard.

I agree. assume you know the book Salt, Fat, Acid, Yeah, ⁓ I always talk about that because I feel like salt has such a bad reputation and people you know they think it's bad for you and yada yada but people just don't understand how salt relates to the flavor of food and like it's incredible to me the lack of knowledge around salt and just the misunderstanding of salt.

yeah, sure. It's great book.

a flavor enhancer.

Yeah, I mean the first

time, you know, I mean when people ask you, it good? Do I have to change anything? And you say like, try maybe to put a little bit more salt. You know, it will help like the impact, sure. Yeah, for sure.

Yeah, it can literally make or break a dish in my opinion.

Farmers market or food festival?

I will put it at the same level. mean, for me, shopping, will be farmers markets, but for indiftifying new things and new trends and experimenting, food festival, food halls, Smorgasburg, I mean, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I have to put them on the first level. Same level. Breakfast.

Try it all.

⁓ Breakfast food or dinner food?

⁓ this is the first question that you and I don't agree on. ⁓

Yeah, I I can't

skip breakfast, but I really love it because for me it's connected to street food probably. Because go to Mexico, fantastic breakfast tacos.

Mm.

And in France, you probably have some really amazing breakfast options. I mean, croissants are good. Winer spirits.

Cross

depends on the moment of the day. Not that I'm going to have... I was thinking about this and I'm like, good. No, I'm not going to have wine for breakfast. I mean, my go-to is going to be wine, but the problem is that I love to discover, experiment, and you know, you know, a nice bourbon, a nice tequila.

Breakfast or dinner.

Mm-hmm.

even a mezcal

with a bit of sparkling water and a slice of lemon or lime. Because then you can have so many different profiles. so it's a tough one. Hmm, not sure I can answer that one.

You're a, you're a liquor purist.

You like it in its original form.

Yeah.

Charcuterie or tapas?

I was afraid that you are going to use charcuterie and cheese because that would have been very difficult.

Well, okay, let's say,

okay, I'm using charcuterie. I know Americans, we do this wrong. When we say charcuterie, we mean the whole thing, like a whole board, cheese, meat. You I know charcuterie is actually meat. So let's say the whole charcuterie cheese board or Spanish tapas.

But I... ⁓

⁓

Yeah.

Again, it's a very tough one because I love Spanish tapas and I used to go to Spain like very often on every three months when I was still busy in Europe. So I know that quite well. I have to say that still probably because of my French DNA, I will do charcuterie and cheese because I cannot resist a cheese, a piece of cheese. Yeah.

Yeah.

I'm from Wisconsin, same.

yeah, but yeah, I'm sorry. I

have some experiences, in fact. Can I share a story with you quickly? So... No, no, no, no, it's not all, in fact, not at all. I tasted it when I was there, but So when I arrived...

Of course! Are you gonna rip on the cheese curds?

I was 24, whatever, first trip in the US, went to Wisconsin. My colleagues, you know, the first weekend said, OK, you you're in Wisconsin, you're French, we are going to bring you to like a farm. like, absolutely fantastic. So I arrived and then I saw and everything was I'm sorry to say that. Sorry for everyone listening. You have to take it for someone, a French guy that arrived freshly from France, never been to the US before. And I saw like

a brick, a yellow brick, an orange brick, and then orange yellow brick, you know, the brick of cheese. That's how I call them. So for me, they look like bricks, like little bricks, like the cheddar. Yeah, it was a cheddar. So for me, it was like, you know, it was in the presentation, like the refrigerating bank and so on. I'm like, and then they were like very excited for me. And they were like, he's from France and so on. gosh. So she went behind and she came back and

⁓ like the cheddar, Wisconsin cheddar.

It's not in the wheel.

It was another for me another brick, but it was a six months old cheddar and she was very proud of it. And I'm tasted and I'm like, okay, it's okay. So I was very polite, of course, you know, and I was like, this is fantastic. But I'm like, my gosh, I'm going to do a one year of this. That's going to be tough for me. But I learned how, you know, to appreciate it and to see it. you know, I was so much use of like goat cheese and the

Mm-hmm.

yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

other things that are close to cheddar for me. okay. So sorry for everyone listening, but.

What is your... It's okay.

My listeners are not just from Wisconsin. yeah, no, it's okay. I get it. I think Wisconsin, like, I mean, obviously, if you've had cheese from all over, like we didn't...

So sorry about you, because you live in Wisconsin.

I went to

Madison, I had the cheese head, had a t-shirt from Madison with the cheese head on it. Yeah, there you go.

there you go. Yeah.

I think we've come a long way with cheese over the years and

Yeah, yeah, like bread too.

Bread as well across the country. When I arrived 24 years ago, the bread that was very painful for me. But now, you know, have very good bread too.

What is your favorite

cheese?

I think I would say probably go cheese. That would be, you know, yeah, go cheese for sure.

Okay.

When you were in Wisconsin, did you try the cheese curds? Like the fresh cheese curds and then the fried cheese curds.

yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yes, did that, yes, absolutely. Yes, yeah, yeah, I did. No, no, it's good, it's fine. No, it's fine, you know. And no, ⁓ for me, as a snack, I used it and it's good.

So you had like the squeaky cheese. And what did you think? It's fine.

all right. Well, we'll close on the cheese curds.

it's funny because now when I go back to France and I see Fafamini, he said, you're no French anymore. I am like, you know, in between. That's what it is, I guess. That's it.

Yeah, don't have a foot in each world. All right.

so awesome talking to you. Where can people find you? I know we we talked about your book and your podcast and I will link all of that. But where can people find you online if they want to learn more about your your work, your book, your podcast?

Yeah, Laura, very nice.

Sure.

Sure. So on LinkedIn, they can find me under my name, know, Emmanuel La Roche. And then otherwise, you know, everything social media, it's under flavors unknown. So Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, you know, that's where I am. Flavors unknown.

I just gave you a little, did you hear that? That was the LinkedIn follow. All right. So awesome to talk with you. It was really interesting. I could talk with you about food all day.

Yes.

Yes, thank you very much Laura.

very passionate about food, this was great, absolutely. know, food connects people, so you know, so.

I'm like

the novice foodie. I have no right, but I love it.

Yeah, no, no, I mean, I mean, you know, I was glad to hear you talking about the different country you've been to, that you go to Cuba regularly. That was a great trip as well that I have taken and, you know, so yeah, cool. You have done some cool stuff. Thank you and very nice meeting Bye.

Alright, good luck with your book launch we'll talk soon. You too. Bye.

That's all for this episode of Type 2 Travel. If you're loving these conversations, hit subscribe or follow, give us a 5 star rating, and share with your adventure seeking friends. Remember, the best stories rarely come from staying in your comfort zone. Until next time, this is Laura Ericson reminding you that your passport is collecting dust, your PTO is piling up, and the world is out there waiting for you to explore it.