Teruko, a free-spirit Japanese woman. shares her bitcoin journey.

Introduction:

• [00:00] Teruko shares her initial Bitcoin experience, highlighting the volatility and her resolve to understand the technology to avoid future scams.
• [00:40] Tali introduces the Orange Hatter retreat, emphasizing the opportunity for connection and growth among women Bitcoiners.

Teruko's Journey:

• [01:42] Teruko, a non-typical Japanese raised in a supportive family, discusses her love for travel and freedom, laying the foundation for her attraction to Bitcoin's principles.
• [00:04:16] Career shifts and a constant search for freedom and flexibility mark Teruko's pre-Bitcoin days, from travel industry mishaps to legal assistant turned tech enthusiast.

Deep Dive into Bitcoin:

• [25:35] Teruko details her initial skepticism and eventual deep dive into Bitcoin, marking a significant turning point in her understanding of money and technology.
• [30:28] An important realization that Bitcoin isn't just another investment but a potential societal game-changer.

Encountering the Bitcoin Community:

• [34:15] Teruko discusses her involvement in the Bitcoin community, from attending male-dominated meetups to contributing to a Japanese hardware wallet startup.

Bitcoin and Society:

• [39:11] Observations on the global and cultural impacts of Bitcoin, including the challenges and different approaches to creating circular economies.

Nostr and Bitcoin Perception in Japan:

• [42:50] Insights into the Nostr Asia conference and the complicated relationship between Japanese tech enthusiasts and Bitcoin, highlighting cultural hesitations and misconceptions.

Challenges and Reflections:

• [54:18] Teruko reflects on the difficulty of encouraging more women to engage with Bitcoin and considers alternative, subtle approaches to spreading awareness.

Concluding Thoughts:

• [01:02:53] Tali wraps up the discussion, urging listeners to explore further and share the insights with other potentially interested women.

Key Quotes:

• "I really have to figure this thing out. Otherwise, I'll be scammed again in the same scheme." - Teruko on her initial Bitcoin experience.
• "I wouldn't be happy, if I tied in, put into this box, and then I can't even do anything." - Teruko on valuing freedom.
• "Once you see the world through Bitcoin lens, you can't unseen, your perspective it has changed 180 degrees." - Teruko on the transformative understanding of Bitcoin.

*** Check out the Orange Hatter Women's Retreat at www.orangehatter.com/yucatan ***

To learn more about Bitcoin: Join the Orange Hatter Women's Reading Club.  Please email to Tali@orangehatter.com for the private telegram group and zoom link.

HODL UP is available at www.freemarketkids.com.

Remember: Knowledge is empowerment! 🍊🎩

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I bought Bitcoin, I didn't know what I bought.

2

But I was so happy.

3

Finally, I'm going to be rich.

4

Two days later, the bubble bursted.

5

I'm like, what?

6

What just happened?

7

I knew it.

8

It's a scam.

9

And I cursed myself for a few

days, but then I thought, I really

10

have to figure this thing out.

11

Otherwise, I'll be scammed

again in the same scheme.

12

So that's when I finally took

time to research about Bitcoin.

13

Tali: Hey everybody.

14

Welcome to Orange Hatter.

15

I've got a very exciting

announcement to make today.

16

The website for the Orange Hatter retreat

is up and registration is now open.

17

We're offering a 21% discount for anyone

18

We did have to move their

retreat up by one day.

19

So it will run from March

16th through the 20th.

20

In Merida, Yucatan, Mexico.

21

This is in partnership

with project Yucatan.

22

It's going to be an amazing five days

of recharge, restoration and deep

23

connections with women Bitcoiners.

24

It will be an absolutely incredible

chance to meet like-minded women and form

25

friendships that will last a lifetime.

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Please go to the website,

www.orangehatter.com/yucatan.

27

And I will see you in Mexico.

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And now onto our very wonderful guest.

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Enjoy welcome to Orange Hatter.

30

I'm so excited to have you here.

31

I can't wait to dive in.

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Teruko: Thank you.

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Thank you for having me.

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It's good to be on the show

hosted by our fellow women.

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Tali: Yes, definitely woman

to woman conversation.

36

All right.

37

So I know the audience can see

this, but we are very casual here.

38

I am literally sitting with a

coat on and a blanket on my legs

39

because I'm in the basement talking

to Turiko over a cup of coffee.

40

We want this story to be

very relatable to you.

41

So yeah, let's get right to it.

42

, Turiko, so tell us a

little bit about yourself.

43

Um, Um,

44

Teruko: Okay.

45

So, , my name is Teruko.

46

Now I'm working for a Bitcoin company

for over four or five years already.

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But before that, well,

people , see me as a free spirit.

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I like to be free or like, I

like to have, , like options.

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I value flexibility.

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, and then I'm not afraid of changes,

like I'm a risk taker, so my life has to

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like, big turns several times growing up.

52

, I was born and raised in Japan, but

, the typical Japanese, . Not like me.

53

So I, I'm usually, I'm

the, , like, loud one.

54

I'm really spontaneous.

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I ask questions at school.

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So, teachers are like, you know, , it's

so rude to question me, like, at class.

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And then I, but I can't help it, right?

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Because I'm so curious.

59

So, , yeah, that was, like, me growing

up, but my family were very supportive of

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me being kind of, you weird, funny, like,

free and independent personality, so I

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was quite lucky, and then, , so naturally

I was interested in the world outside of

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Japan, so as soon as I entered college

I started traveling around the world.

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, So far, I've probably visited

more than 70 countries.

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, but I stopped counting after 50

countries, so I don't know exactly.

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But, I did, , yeah, like,

backpacking, Europe I did, you

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really, like, souvenir, like, five

star hotel type of traveling, too.

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But, , so my college dates for like those

traveling dates, but then you graduate

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college and you have to start work, right?

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So my first job was because

I love traveling so much.

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So, , I wanted to be in the

industry, which I can also travel.

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So naturally I chose.

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a travel agency so I can be a tour guide.

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But that was a big mistake.

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If you love something, you

should keep it as a hobby.

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Not make it, , a work because,

you know, work, because you do

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something you don't want, you suffer,

that's why you get compensated.

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So, the first lesson I learned, I'd say,

you know, , fresh out in that, , work.

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But, , yeah, so I couldn't

last long, and then I quit.

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And then I was so afraid of

telling my parents I quit

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my job after like two weeks.

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So I'm like, I have to find

a new job before I come, you

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know, clean to my parents.

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Yeah, I was like, anything,

just, you know, job.

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I need a job.

85

So, , then I, , like I was like

going through a job posting

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site and blah, blah, blah.

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This new job, which where it's like the

law firm, and it's just a legal assistant.

88

And then there, I was hired as a

legal assistant, but I found out

89

that it was back in the late 90s.

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So, everyone had a PC.

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Everyone had emails.

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That office, or maybe law industry

overall, wasn't digitalized at all.

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And then I had to, like, Go to

the warehouse and then pick up the

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files from the pile of files, right?

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So, I'm like, why do I have to do it?

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If they have a database,

I know exactly where the

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information they are looking for.

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So, I'm like, , going to the partner

and then, complain about my job being

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inefficient because of this manual work.

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Right?

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And then he was like,

what can what can I do?

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I mean, you know, what do you want to do?

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So I'm like, I wanna build, database,

even though I had no experience, right?

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But, already, Microsoft had a, What's it?

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Access, which is the software, you

can actually build, , customize

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the database, even though you

don't have a coding skills.

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So, , yeah, even though I was hired as

a legal assistant, I kind of, , pivoted

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myself to this, database project,

like it's my personal project.

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So it was funny.

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So I still had to work as a

legal assistant during the day,

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but after the work, I could

work on my own project and then.

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At first, they were not going to

pay me for my own project because

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that's, something I just wanted to do.

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But, so it took me almost like six months

to like eight months to complete it.

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Literally uploaded all the

files information, at least the

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index export to the database.

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And then I automated the reporting system

so we don't have to manually write the

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monthly or weekly update to our clients.

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So, even though I spent 6 to 8 months of

that, the time saving I got afterward,

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after we had this big case, was huge.

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And the partners saw the benefit.

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So eventually they actually paid

me to buy that database from me.

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So that was very, , it was exciting.

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It was something I did by myself.

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And then I actually made money.

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And then the whole process,

I actually enjoyed a lot.

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It was everything was new to me and

then I had to, go to a bookstore,

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look for something I can use.

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And then also I was born with

this, , forum asking questions.

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I want to make this I need this function.

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How can I get it.

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And the people were so nice

that they just do this, this.

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Yeah, so that was my, I would say that

was my, first encounter with technology.

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Like software.

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So, , I got really interested

into that area of the business.

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So, , I decided to quit the law

firm and then went back to school.

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So I went back for master degree in the U.

138

S.

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, because at that point, I thought, okay,

maybe I could do simple coding and

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programming, but I'm not good at it.

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So, I wanted to be more like

IT consultants, so I went back

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to, , business school to get my MBA.

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And then, yeah, business school was fun,

it was busy, and it was, all that stuff.

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But, um, after I finished the school,

I , I didn't stay in the us I came back

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to Japan and then for so , which is

kind of IT consumer product company.

146

And then that product I was

assigned was, yeah, it was, it,

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it was like the iPhone without.

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cell phone.

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It's like everything you can do, like

you can take picture, you can listen

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to the music, it's just you can't talk.

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It's not a phone.

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I lost that.

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Yeah, it was also fun.

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I was in like product planning, like

marketing, but because it's Sony, it's

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a big company, everything was so slow.

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And then whatever you want

to do, you have to fill The

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forms, paperwork was killing me.

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And then, the person who values

flexibility and freedom couldn't take it.

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So much structure that I have to follow.

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And I'm like, ah, just kill me.

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So, I left after two years.

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And then after that, I

was, , pretty much on my own.

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I started my online business.

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At one point, I was

doing personal shopper.

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And after that, I was full time airbnb

host because I love traveling, right?

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And then I stayed at

Airbnbs all over the world.

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And then I was like why

don't I just start Airbnbs?

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So even though, even when I'm in

Japan, I feel like I'm traveling.

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So, I did that for five years, I think.

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Yeah, so I was like, really, yeah.

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I'm like, the post on foods.

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Get, like, I'm curious, so I always

can find something to distract

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me, like, for a year or two, and

then I really dig deep into it.

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But then, I'm like, okay, I'm done.

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Something new.

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I need something new.

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So, yeah, I was changing the

jobs every three, four years.

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And then I was enjoying that kind of life.

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That was that was pretty

much my pre Bitcoin days.

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Tali: I find it very fascinating

that you are so not the typical

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Japanese woman that people think of.

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So I want to dig a little deeper

into your childhood because Japan

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is kind of interesting because

you have simultaneously the very

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rich and very deep traditions of

honor and respect and structure.

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And then you're also at the

cutting edge of innovation.

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when you were growing up and being

curious and asking questions when

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you're not supposed to, I'm really glad

to hear that your parents supported

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you, but what was it like for you as a

student in the Japanese school system?

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With your personality.

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Teruko: With my personality,

because, , Because I'm, like, super

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social, , If I go somewhere, I usually

dominate this, you know, first place.

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I'm like, you know, yeah, I

can do this, I can do that.

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So, luckily I was also well

accepted by friends class too.

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I was never picked on.

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I guess I was too strong to be picked on.

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Yeah, I was always, class

president was like that.

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people usually don't like to be in that

role, and then, like, yeah, I'll do it.

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Kind of.

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Yeah.

200

So, in a way because I ask questions

I'm not supposed to, so teachers are

201

kind of annoyed, but at the same time,

because I volunteer to be a class

202

president, so they also value to be

kind of, you know, spontaneous and

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then take actually responsibility.

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Tali: How was that like when you

were going through testing phase

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of entering higher education

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Teruko: Oh, like, specifically

study for college entrance

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examination and stuff like that.

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Yeah, that was tough because,

, you have no flexibility.

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There is only one answer, right?

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It's usually multiple choices.

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So, but I have a good memory, so

I could memorize a lot of stuff.

212

so I did okay.

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Yeah.

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The tough part is you actually

have to, so you have, you can

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train yourself to do good in that

kind of testing, testing, right?

216

So, junior high and high school, I had

to go to this cram school, especially

217

tailored for scoring high on that

kind of So, that wasn't fun, and then

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that consumed my you precious free

time, so I didn't do that at all.

219

Yeah, but I knew already that that's

something I have to go through

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to be in a place I want to be.

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So, yeah.

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Tali: Okay, so you get through the testing

phase and now you are at the university

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and you said that you actually traveled

a lot during your university years So

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Teruko: Yeah, so,

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Tali: programs or were they

just vacation kind of trips?

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Teruko: it's vacation type of

trip, but, Japanese educational

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system is different from the U.

228

S., I think.

229

So, up until high school, their

whole purpose for students are

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getting into the university.

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And once you get into university,

Like, unlike, in the U.

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S., you actually have to work really

hard in the university, right, to

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get the grade or just to graduate.

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But Japan is not like that.

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Once you are in, you will be graduating,

even though you don't have to do any work.

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So, in my case, yes, I was I was

a student at the university, but

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I didn't really go to classes.

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Like, I didn't attend classes.

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And then professors, uh, also lazy

too, so they used, they reused, , the

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same test over and over for many years.

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So I could just get the test in advance.

242

from, a friend who's already

been through the same class.

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So, yeah, literally, you can

graduate without studying in Japan.

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So, instead of going to classes,

I actually started working.

245

It's a part time job, but, I was

almost working as a full timer.

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Like, I was working eight hours a

day to save money for traveling.

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Yeah, so I work and

then save up the funds.

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Then, once I have enough, I just

took off, even though school was in.

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Like, it wasn't.

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Even summer break or spring

break, I just, whenever I had

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money, then I just took off.

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Tali: Okay, so The four years that

you were in college, you were actually

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Not doing college work at all.

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It was in name only.

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And you literally took

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Teruko: so I was, um, yeah, yeah, so

I, I was supposed to study economics,

257

and then I have a bachelor degree

in economics, but, yeah, I didn't

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learn much about economics, but

luckily it was Keynesian, so, yeah.

259

Thank God I didn't, learn Keynesians.

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Tali: That's too funny.

261

Okay.

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And I guess that's just a general

understanding of all Japanese.

263

It's just that you basically complete

your education by high school

264

graduation and then the four years of

college is the reward that you get.

265

Teruko: Yeah, yeah, it's like a moratorium

you get before facing the tough reality.

266

Tali: Yeah.

267

Teruko: years of vacations.

268

But I think nowadays,

it's a bit different.

269

Because my niece actually go to school

every day and then start even, have a

270

homework, doing the homework at home.

271

So Maybe they changed.

272

Tali: Well, here's my question then.

273

Do you think that English is The

education that you experienced through

274

world traveling was far more valuable

than maybe a classroom experience where

275

you, you get the professors lecturing

you and you have to write papers.

276

Teruko: I don't know because

I didn't go that way, right?

277

I couldn't really compare

which I didn't experience.

278

But, I would say, I don't know like

educational wise, but the traveling

279

definitely influenced me a lot.

280

They made my personality.

281

or, They affected my

value and my perspective.

282

Because, you know, born and raised in

Japan, it's a clean country, everything

283

works, and the people are so nice.

284

It's very different from the

rest of the world, right?

285

So, when you go out, you meet people.

286

who are not that nice, who

are trying to scam you.

287

Or like, you go to a country which

is not clean, and you don't even want

288

to use bathroom, but people are using

bathroom, so I'm like, how can they?

289

Or like, you know, , yeah,

like, everything.

290

Of course, back then, Japan

was having bubble economy.

291

Japan was like number

one power in the world.

292

So, like, everywhere I go, I felt like,

wow, everything is so cheap, right?

293

So, , yeah, those things you

wouldn't know unless you actually

294

go out and, see yourself.

295

And then also, because I was doing

backpacking and then staying at a

296

youth hostel with total strangers, you

get to talk to those people, right?

297

And then people who are

almost, like, same age as me.

298

I went through a lot already, one guy

was saying, yeah, my father was judge at

299

a screen call, that he was assassinated.

300

I'm like, what?

301

And girls were saying, yeah, my

country is so poor, and I'm the

302

first one who went to college.

303

I'm like, what?

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People don't go to college.

305

You know.

306

Those type of stuff.

307

And then, on the other hand,

you will have royal family.

308

Who has maid, who has five cars, and

then they have all different work, right?

309

So, it's like, I'm like,

wow, the world is so big.

310

I know nothing about it.

311

I was humbled by it.

312

Yeah.

313

Those experiences, I guess.

314

Tali: Okay.

315

So you, you've traveled the world,

you've met all these different people

316

and you've seen different things.

317

You return to Japan.

318

Now you're looking at.

319

What you grew up with, with fresh

eyes, how did that affect you

320

when you were looking for a job?

321

Because you have mentioned in the

previous conversation that the culture

322

was changing right around that time,

especially where women were choosing not

323

to start a family and not to be boxed

in that role of being a wife and mom.

324

Did that contribute to your

viewpoint when you went back to

325

Japan and you started working,

326

Teruko: Yes, so, yeah, I think women

in late 20s or even 30s, they have,

327

it's difficult, right, because, You

have to decide if you want to get

328

married, if you want to have kids, if

you want to start a family, where you

329

want to live , tough decisions you have

to make, and then that decision will

330

actually determine the rest of your

life, so you'll be, of course you'll be

331

afraid of making big decisions, right?

332

, but now, when I look back, you suffer,

because you actually have, Lot of

333

options, but as you get older, your

options are , it's one by one, it

334

disappears, at a certain age, you

cannot have child, so like, less,

335

one less thing to worry about, right?

336

So, but, of course, when you are late

twenties or thirties, you don't know that.

337

So, I was yeah, I was

going through tough times.

338

Especially around thirty.

339

That's when I graduated

from business school, too.

340

The timing was, I could have married

and started a family, but then my

341

degree, MBA degree, which be just

waste it, but in Japan, it's either or.

342

If you choose career, you pretty much have

to give up on marriage and having family.

343

And then if you want to have family,

then you have to sacrifice your career.

344

And then I'm like, I just spent two years

and there's so much money on my education.

345

I can't just give up.

346

I have to repay, like, I have a huge debt.

347

I have to work.

348

Yeah, and then also, , yeah, because I

grew up in the culture, I knew, , what was

349

, would be like if I get married to typical

Japanese man, which I wanted to avoid.

350

So, yeah.

351

even my mom, who's been married,

happily married for many years, and

352

then, my parents are really good,

and then I grew up in a good family,

353

but even she said don't get married.

354

To me, because seeing you, I could

actually, support myself financially and

355

then I'm strong enough to be live myself.

356

So she's like, you are not gonna

be happy to have that normal,

357

like, typical Japanese wife life.

358

So, yeah, stay away.

359

Tali: I'm just so blown away by

how supportive your parents are.

360

that's amazing to not have that

burden, because if they had said

361

no, what's wrong with you, why,

why won't you do the typical thing?

362

I think that would have been

very difficult for you to

363

kind of break out of the mold.

364

Teruko: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

365

So, , yeah, I'm just lucky, I guess,

because I know a lot of my friends who

366

went to, you know, school with, yeah, they

definitely have pressure from parents, and

367

then also, you know, peer pressure, too.

368

everybody, my close friends were, like,

married young and then starting having

369

kids, Am I really going to be by myself?

370

Am I going to be okay?

371

I questioned myself, but I just

couldn't give up my freedom.

372

Freedom is really important to me.

373

But, I mean, eventually, to make

someone else happy, then you have

374

to be happy yourself, too, right?

375

Tali: Absolutely.

376

Teruko: Yeah, I realized I wouldn't

be happy, if I tied in, put into this

377

box, and then I can't even do anything.

378

How can I make, you know,

my kids or my husband happy?

379

Like, you know, I don't think I can, so.

380

Tali: Okay.

381

So we've established

that you love freedom.

382

I think that's a wonderful

segue to get into Bitcoin.

383

You've just quit Sony and now walk us

through how you came across Bitcoin.

384

, Teruko: I mean, My Bitcoin story

is actually really typical.

385

, you heard of the word Bitcoin

like so many years ago, but

386

you couldn't, you didn't care.

387

It's you just dismissed it

as, yeah, it's, it's a scam.

388

It's a speculation.

389

So you didn't give any

time to look into it.

390

So I started hearing about Bitcoin

391

been investing in stocks and

real estate from college, right?

392

So I've been watching Bloomberg, CNBC,

and then sometimes, when the Bitcoin

393

price went, they would report that, yeah,

Bitcoin just broke a hundred dollars.

394

And then I typically remember

the first time Bitcoin actually

395

broke a hundred dollars.

396

Yeah, I think that was 2014.

397

So, yeah.

398

But still, I'm like, yeah.

399

I mean, you know, it's tulip bubble.

400

People will go down to zero.

401

So I didn't even pay attention.

402

But, 2017 in bubble, I couldn't

just watch the price going up and

403

then making everybody so richj So

finally I bought my first Bitcoin in

404

December 2017 without doing research.

405

So even though I bought Bitcoin,

I didn't know what I just bought.

406

But I was so happy.

407

Finally, I'm going to be rich.

408

Two days later, the bubble bursted.

409

And then it, you know, the

price crashed to a half.

410

I'm like, what?

411

What just I knew it.

412

I knew it.

413

It's a scam.

414

I was, you know, rug

pulled, And I was so upset.

415

And I cursed myself.

416

For a few days, but then I thought, okay,

I really have to figure this thing out.

417

Otherwise, I'll be, you know,

scammed again in the same scheme.

418

So that's when I finally took

time to research about Bitcoin.

419

I didn't know where to go.

420

I didn't know what to

read or who to listen to.

421

So basically, I just Googled.

422

and then read all the articles in it.

423

And then I was like,

yeah, see, it's a scam.

424

You see, it's a scam.

425

But then, I found this blog post

and then that made me wonder,

426

Oh, maybe it's not a scam.

427

Maybe it might be.

428

So the blog post was, , by BJ Boyapati.

429

It's famous The Bullish Case for Bitcoin.

430

I think many of Bitcoiners

think it's a classic.

431

It was written in 2018.

432

It's made into a book now.

433

It's a really good, , book.

434

So, he talked about Bitcoin and

other money, and he went back to the

435

history of money, and what makes good

money, So, , yeah, to me, that was

436

the first article which actually gave

explanation in in terms of, like,

437

from their economics perspective.

438

Even though I didn't study economics.

439

Okay, but this, this seems really legit.

440

So after that, I still

continue on reading.

441

And then a few months later,

I, discovered the Bible.

442

It's called the Bitcoin Standard.

443

Which eventually I

translated into Japanese.

444

So, yeah, that book was a slap in the

face wow, it's the world I've been

445

living, the world I thought I knew,

but it's totally different story.

446

So I'm like, wow, I want to think about.

447

So that was when I started,

Falling into the rabbit hole.

448

Yeah, visually after that, or

449

You know, my personality, if

I find something interesting,

450

then I I have to go all in.

451

So, that time, I would

rather read than eat or sleep.

452

So, my mom is like, here we go again.

453

And it was being terrible.

454

Like, she wouldn't eat, she

wouldn't sleep, she'd just read.

455

Yeah, so I was doing it for about a year.

456

I just I couldn't stop, I wanted

to know everything about Bitcoin.

457

So that was extreme time.

458

Tali: You know what I find

fascinating is that when the price

459

fell instead of rushing to sell

it you decided to read up on it.

460

Go through that period for

me because that's so unusual.

461

Most people will be like, oh my

gosh, I made a horrible mistake

462

I better sell it before it goes

to zero, but you didn't do that.

463

You went and

464

Teruko: Yeah, I mean, it was already, uh,

you know, it was already in a half price.

465

I'm like, at this point, it

doesn't really matter, right?

466

If I hold on to it, or if it

goes to zero, I mean, it's

467

just, you I just made a mistake.

468

I just have to own the mistake.

469

And a lot of people, I think it

just, they just don't want to even

470

hear about Bitcoin after going

through that experience, right?

471

But I really wanted to make sure that

I wouldn't take on the same scam.

472

I wouldn't want to, I wouldn't

allow myself if I fell.

473

Falling to the same scam.

474

So I really needed to know

how this thing will work.

475

Tali: that's interesting.

476

Did you do that with

other cryptocurrencies?

477

Did you experiment with them and

did you do the same studies into

478

them that you did with bitcoin?

479

Teruko: so yeah, , I mean, because two

days after I bought Bitcoin, it crashed.

480

So I didn't really have other

cryptocurrency at that point.

481

But when I was reading about

Bitcoin, of course you come across

482

other cryptocurrencies too, right?

483

And then because I was back then,

looking cryptocurrency as, you know,

484

almost like same as stocks, so I

was trying to pick the right one,

485

which would outperform others, right?

486

So yeah, I bought several,

or like, tons of altcoins.

487

eventually, eventually I realized,

oh, there's Bitcoin, it's money.

488

It's good money.

489

And then other cryptocurrencies it's

just a startup stuff like equity.

490

So I could differentiate, and then I

couldn't care less about those equities.

491

I was more interested in good money

and what the good money can do for

492

the society and the whole world.

493

So even though I came for the profit,

I just wanted to make money, I stayed

494

because I saw the possibility or the

potential of Bitcoin, which can actually

495

change the world for the better.

496

Yeah, because,

497

Tali: It's interesting that you

say the other cryptocurrencies are

498

like equity in a startup company.

499

I haven't heard it

describe quite that way.

500

So I'm really glad that you use that

term because that's what it really is.

501

It's centralized

502

Teruko: yeah, it's, they have,

well, I mean, they don't call it

503

a company, but they have what they

call themselves like foundations.

504

It's the same, right?

505

It's that they, you have the organization

which determines the fate of their

506

blockchain or the cryptocurrency.

507

So it's a company.

508

And then those people who are working on

are just members working for that company.

509

And then people who holds that

crypto is a shareholders, they

510

get to say what they think.

511

But, uh,, it's really up to the company

or the management to decide, right?

512

So it's, yeah, it's a startup company.

513

Tali: Yeah, it sounds like it was actually

really lucky that you bought Bitcoin and

514

two days later a crash So that's that

was actually a huge blessing for you.

515

Okay.

516

So now you're way down the Bitcoin

rabbit hole give us an idea of

517

how you then transitioned into

working in the Bitcoin space.

518

And then I wanna talk a little

bit about the Nostrville

519

Asia that you just came from.

520

Teruko: Yeah.

521

So when I was reading about Bitcoin,

I had so many questions, right?

522

Because I don't have math

or technological background.

523

So I started going to meetups to

meet Bitcoiners, to know about

524

Bitcoin, so I can ask questions.

525

And then of course when I go to

those Bitcoins, they are all male.

526

And then when I enter the room,

they're like, huh, are you lost?

527

This is Bitcoin meetup.

528

Like, are you lost?

529

Like, are you someone plus one?

530

I'm like, no.

531

I'm not plus one.

532

I'm not lost.

533

I'm here for Bitcoin meetup.

534

I'm like, huh.

535

Yeah, so I started going to this meetup

and then at one meetup, there were

536

a group of people who are actually

working to create a hardware wallet

537

made in Japan, a hardware wallet,

and then they had a prototype.

538

So, because I, my background is

product planning and marketing

539

in consumer market, right?

540

so I'm like, you, you

can't, this is, make this.

541

Like this, or like, not this

color, or this button, it's,

542

it's not like this, it has to be

this way, or something like that.

543

So I was giving irresponsible

opinion about their product.

544

And then they're like, yeah, they are

startup and then basically town now they

545

were still working for University, they're

professors at Stanford professors.

546

So there are like cryptographers So no

nothing of this Are you gonna be okay?

547

Like you don't know anything about

business like even though you come

548

out with really good product you have

to deliver that product to the market.

549

Otherwise they wouldn't

even know this existed.

550

So you need marketing person,

you need communication channel,

551

. And then they had no clue.

552

So, , yeah, I decided to join them.

553

So that was my first Bitcoin job.

554

And I was there for two, three years.

555

Yeah.

556

So that's how I got

started in this industry.

557

Tali: That's fascinating.

558

Isn't it so true that the inventor

usually is not the best person to

559

bring the product to the marketplace?

560

So you worked for that company for two

or three years, did you transition from

561

that point to where you are now or was

that there are other steps in between?

562

Teruko: No, it was from their startup to

the other side of the venture capital.

563

Tali: Mm-Hmm.

564

Teruko: Startup life is tough.

565

Like you, yeah, like I really

hate it when I have to talk to

566

venture capital, like, you know.

567

I know them saying no, it's part

of their job and nothing personal,

568

but still, it's, it's hard.

569

Tali: It hurts

570

Teruko: It hurts.

571

And then also the market cycle too, like

Bitcoin has a four year cycle, right?

572

And then when I joined them, it was 2018,

so , the bubble just bursted, so there,

573

it wasn't a good time to, , raise money.

574

I mean, it was a good time to build, but,

you know, I was, , constantly worried

575

about, , that, you know, a long way, like,

Oh, how much, how many months do we spend,

576

like, how many months do we go like this?

577

Yeah, it was so stressful.

578

Yeah, so, , yeah, from there,

I, we are joined to VC.

579

Tali: So when you started traveling

again, 'cause I know that you're not in

580

Japan right now, but when you started

traveling again, was that because of the

581

venture capital work that you're doing?

582

Or is that just a personal interest?

583

Like, I want to continue to

see the world kind of thing.

584

Teruko: So, now mainly it's for

conferences, so it's a part of the job.

585

But, , even before, like, when I was

working for the startup, I was traveling.

586

Mainly to see, I was really

fascinated with the idea of

587

Bitcoin circular economies.

588

So I wanted to visit them

and see what they are doing.

589

So I went to El Salvador and Guatemala.

590

Yeah, just out of curiosity,

nothing to do with the job.

591

Tali: As we were talking before,

there are circular economies

592

popping up all over the place.

593

I've personally talked to a bunch of

women who are with their own effort

594

with the local people trying to start

circular economies where they are.

595

It's absolutely incredible the amount

of work you have to put into convincing

596

the merchants to accept Bitcoin.

597

What have you observed around the world

in your work and also out of your personal

598

interest That you can share with us.

599

I mean, it could be just the

type of people who are working

600

on it or their differences,

601

Teruko: You mean they're, , specifically

about the circular economy, or?

602

Tali: uh, specifically

about the circular economy.

603

Yeah,

604

, Teruko: I think there are different ways.

605

Like the Bitcoin beach in Elva, El

Saba, though it's our bottom up, right?

606

So, but , it's a bottom

up grassroot movement.

607

But they had a funding, they had

an anonymous donor who gave them

608

a lot of Bitcoin so they could

start distributing Bitcoin to,

609

.

people living in the community.

610

So it's, I would say it's not

a typical, circular economy.

611

Because nowadays those, you know, other,

circular economy popping up around the

612

world are started by Bitcoiners who are so

into Bitcoin who want to change the world.

613

So they're actually using their own money.

614

And they are on time to convince,

yeah, like you said, educate merchants

615

and then building necessary tools.

616

So those are the grassroots,

bottom up approach.

617

But on the other hand, like,

Lugano city of Switzerland, where

618

you can actually pay, like you

can shop more than 200 stores.

619

, with Bitcoin, and you can even pay

tax or any city service in Bitcoin.

620

And then, you know, it's very different.

621

It's a top down approach.

622

So they have budget, and then

they can hire a company to make

623

like, costs to cater their needs.

624

So, basically Everybody accepts

Bitcoin, but because of the way force is

625

configured, the merchant have a choice.

626

Or they can choose how much

Bitcoin they want to keep once

627

they keep, once they get Bitcoin.

628

So some might want to just keep 5%.

629

Some might want to keep up, some

might want to keep all in Bitcoin.

630

But in reality, , everybody

chose to convert Switzerland

631

as soon as they get Bitcoin.

632

So no merchant wants

to hold on to Bitcoin.

633

Yeah, so that's the reality.

634

So yeah, different, different

types of circular economies.

635

I don't know which one would be good.

636

Top down seems very efficient.

637

If you just want to count the stores,

which accept the Bitcoin, but you

638

know, if you dig in, those people

are not really holding on to Bitcoin.

639

So, I don't know, like tax

wise, it's probably bottom up

640

will be eventually, , more.

641

Tali: well, that's really helpful.

642

I didn't know there were

these different structures.

643

Let's jump quickly to your

recent experience, Nostr Asia,

644

and it took place in Japan.

645

So very exciting.

646

Tell us a little bit

about what that was like.

647

Teruko: So Nostr Asia is

a conference about Nostr.

648

Nostr is not part of Bitcoin, but

Bitcoiners are very like, excited about

649

because bitcoin is a freedom money,

but uh, it's also freedom of speech.

650

Like other social networks service

like Twitter or Facebook or Instagram.

651

There are certain things you

shouldn't say otherwise you account

652

will be frozen, but Nostr because

it's not really decentralized.

653

It's like , you have many servers

where you can store your data, so.

654

If this one server decided to ban you,

there are so many others you can go to, so

655

you would never lose your profile, right?

656

So, that kind of freedom of

speech would appeal to Bitcoiners.

657

So, probably, if you see, overall,

it's probably 90 percent people Who

658

are on Nostr are somewhat related to

Bitcoin, if they're are Bitcoiners.

659

But in Japan it's different.

660

Japanese Bitcoiners still

hang out in Twitter or X and

661

not many people are on Nostr.

662

So those are Nostr, those are the people

who just like new stuff, so they found

663

out, oh, there is this new SMS we have.

664

Many of them are developers, and then

they found out it's so easy to build

665

an app on Nostr it's so flexible, so

they enjoy that experience, right?

666

So, Nostr Asia, even me, who actually

spoke Nostr Asia, didn't really Use Nostr.

667

Like, I had an account for a year already.

668

I'm not active.

669

So I don't know much about

Nostar, to be honest.

670

So there are I would say, oh, We

probably had close to 700 people

671

coming to conference over in total.

672

And it was four days long.

673

And then probably 60, 70 percent

of people are visiting Bitcoiners.

674

And then 3 to 40 percent local Japanese

Nostar users, plus a bit of Bitcoiners.

675

So, the talks are very different from

what you'd hear at Bitcoin conferences.

676

Even though people who

are speaking are the same.

677

So, they are Bitcoiners, but they

also are excited about Nostar.

678

So, on the stage, they try

to focus on Nostar, but they

679

didn't talk much about Bitcoin.

680

Which was, I think, which was

good, because those Japanese

681

Bitcoiners, , no, Nostar users,

Not necessarily Bitcoin, France.

682

, Actually some of them hate Bitcoin.

683

, when they found out Zap which is

the tipping service on Northstar

684

is using Bitcoin technology,

they were so disappointed.

685

And then they wanted to make

alternative version of tipping

686

function, not using Bitcoin.

687

So they hate Bitcoin that much.

688

So it was, , for me, it was interesting,

but I'm like, you know, , there

689

are so many Bitcoiners and then you

can't avoid talking about Bitcoin.

690

It's a freedom pet.

691

And then those people who actually

like Nostar because it's free, then

692

they should be interested in Bitcoin if

they know what Bitcoin is really about.

693

So I tried to orange pill Japanese

Nostar users during Nostar

694

Asia, but it didn't go well.

695

Like I couldn't, I couldn't

orange pill anyone.

696

Tali: why do they hate Bitcoin so much?

697

Teruko: Because so Japan used to

be like Tokyo used to be the center

698

of Bitcoin scene back being like

699

CJ the C the founder of Binance

lived in Tokyo and Roger Burwell.

700

So in Tokyo.

701

The world's first Bitcoin

meetup was created in Tokyo.

702

Everybody was in in Tokyo.

703

So it was big.

704

And then, a lot of people bought

Bitcoin around the same time as me.

705

So like 2017 bubble.

706

And a lot of people lost money,

you know, after bubble bursted.

707

So they had some negative feelings

about Bitcoin through that experience.

708

Or, people who didn't even

buy Bitcoin heard about so

709

many bad things about Bitcoin.

710

Like, when Mt.

711

Gox filed bankruptcy, I still

remember seeing on national

712

television network, saying that the

CEO of Bitcoin company was arrested.

713

. It was just one, I mean

huge, but one exchange.

714

But people couldn't differentiate

between Mt Gox and then Bitcoin

715

as an open source network.

716

So, yeah, I guess that image was

embedded back then and is still

717

lingering aroundin their head.

718

They couldn't shut off.

719

So still when I talk to Japanese

friends or family members, I

720

wouldn't say I work in Bitcoin because

then I have to start explaining.

721

So I would just say, yeah, I'm in tech.

722

I'm in fintech.

723

Tali: Even though we had that bubble

burst eventually the price came back up

724

but I guess by that time they weren't

really paying too much attention

725

because they were traumatized so

726

Teruko: much?

727

Yes.

728

So the last one 20, was it 2021?

729

Yeah, the price, they reached

new all time high, right?

730

But not many people paid attention.

731

I'm assuming because they already

dismissed Bitcoin as a scam.

732

Or some people who secretly wanted to

have a Bitcoin so they could enjoy the

733

price bump, but they didn't, so they

were kind of bitter about it, too.

734

Yeah, I don't know which, but I still,

yeah, and then even like recently,

735

, Bitcoin price is going up, right?

736

It's not making new all time high,

but it's close enough, especially

737

when you look at the chart in

Japanese yen which has depreciated

738

massively in the last few years.

739

So, it's so close, but still not

many people are talking about it.

740

Tali: you also mentioned that in Nostra

Asia the Developers really love the

741

zapping capability of tipping each

other they didn't know what SATs

742

were And then they found out that

it was operating on a Bitcoin base.

743

Instead of looking to Bitcoin and

why it's the base that's on Nostr

744

they created their own version

745

Teruko: they tried to, I don't know

if they succeeded, but yeah, they

746

talked about how we can go without

using Bitcoin network, hello.

747

Yeah, and then even some of

them, I personally talked during

748

Nostr Asia, said, so now they

are okay using Lightning Network.

749

So there are, it tends to be

like researching how Lightning

750

Networks work and which is fine.

751

And then, some of them are

even running Lightning Node.

752

So when they say, yeah,

I run Lightning Node.

753

I'm like, then you are

also running Bitcoin Node.

754

But they don't want to do it.

755

I mean, they don't want to say it.

756

And then I wouldn't.

757

This isn't there to say, but, , yeah,

I don't know why, but they said,

758

yeah, Lightning Network is cool,

but I just don't care about money.

759

Like, money, it's good or not.

760

So, I'm not interested in

learning about Bitcoin.

761

Tali: So would you say that the

Bitcoin movement in Japan is not

762

very robust or is it just isolated

incidents with these developers?

763

Teruko: No, no, that's

the overall impression.

764

Uh, I have a dedicated website, which

is just a collection of Japanese Bitcoin

765

educational materials, but, uh, yeah,

it's, care about Bitcoin, because,

766

I mean, you can probably relate, S.

767

is probably the same, you about

Bitcoin, but, , yeah, it's there,

768

but it doesn't get a lot of traffic.

769

People just don't care about

Bitcoin, because, I mean, you

770

can probably relate, the U.

771

S.

772

is probably same, you , everything

works, people have credit card,

773

people have bank account, they have

their own payment network, and

774

then they get points for discount.

775

I mean, they don't need Bitcoin,

which is actually a blessing.

776

So, I mean, if they don't need it,

good for you, you are the lucky ones.

777

Tali: Yeah.

778

I just had the same conversation with

my son yesterday at the dinner table

779

and I could see as I was talking,

his eyes rolling because he's just

780

not in that stage of life where it's

important yet, he's relatively young

781

And so yeah, all we can do is make the

material available and hope that one

782

day they will find their own way there.

783

Teruko: That's also a good

thing about Bitcoin, right?

784

It's just there as an option.

785

I mean, either opt in or opt out,

it's entirely up to that person.

786

That's freedom.

787

That's flexibility.

788

It's just an option.

789

Tali: Scott and I talked a lot about that.

790

All we can do is share the knowledge

we have so that people can make

791

informed choices because right now I

feel like they're making choices But

792

they don't have the whole picture.

793

Like what you were saying when

you started reading the Bitcoin

794

Standard you realize that

everything you knew wasn't true.

795

Everything you grew up

believing wasn't true.

796

So Yeah, that's my only goal is just

to give people the full picture.

797

Teruko: Yeah, but I also have to warn

people who are gonna be into Bitcoin

798

that once you see the world through

Bitcoin lens, you can't unseen, your

799

perspective it has changed 180 degrees.

800

If you wish, you can't go back

to the way you were before.

801

So, you might lose some friends,

you'll be in different situations, so.

802

Yeah, because sometimes I'm like, like,

can I just go back to happy fiat life.

803

It was so much easier.

804

But you can't unsee.

805

So yeah,

806

Tali: Well, that's exactly why.

807

Yeah, that's exactly why I've

created that retreat, because

808

we do see things so differently.

809

And it's frustrating that the rest

of the world doesn't see what we

810

see, and that can be really draining.

811

You know, that could be really fatiguing.

812

Okay, so to wrap up, what would

you say to a woman who's still

813

sitting on the fence about Bitcoin?

814

Teruko: I actually don't have the

advice because that's the question

815

I've been always asking myself, how

can I get more women to Bitcoin?

816

How can I get more women to my

bitcoin meetup then I actually

817

don't have an answer, so I

don't know what's stopping them.

818

I've been hosting a Bitcoin meetup

in Tokyo for five years, and

819

usually I'm the only woman there.

820

And then people don't realize I'm a

woman because it's just all guys, and

821

you kind of have to blend in too, right?

822

I mean, I'm not trying to be, but

I guess I'm, by now, I'm like one

823

of them, like I'm like a dude.

824

So, I don't know what's

blocking women's minds.

825

I don't know what's their role.

826

One thing, yeah, like you

said, women are busy, right?

827

, with so much to do.

828

They don't have, , enough

time for themselves.

829

So Why they should spend that time

on Bitcoin studying Bitcoin and I

830

I can't like I can't shove orange

pill into their mouths right they

831

have to realize they have a problem.

832

Once they know they have a problem then

they will start looking for solutions

833

and they might stumble on to Bitcoin.

834

But if they are living in a

perfect world I don't think those

835

people will never discover Bitcoin.

836

Yeah, so I don't know.

837

I don't have the answer.

838

I don't have a good advice.

839

Tali: so true that until they

have a problem they need to solve,

840

Teruko: yeah.

841

Tali: and it's fine.

842

one idea I have is like the

home parties for selling stuff

843

So they have it for jewelry.

844

They have it for recipe books They have

it for Tupperware and Bible study and

845

things and I think there's something

to the intimacy of somebody's home that

846

is just different from a Bitcoin meetup

per se so That's sort of the way that

847

I'm trying to figure out how to get

more women to just invite two or three

848

friends to their home and open up.

849

And then instead of saying, let

me tell you about Bitcoin, because

850

then the people won't show up.

851

Maybe we say something like

come over and we'll play games.

852

Because people still do that.

853

They get together, they play games.

854

That hopefully then opens up the

conversation because we kind of have

855

to do it in a roundabout way if we just

go in guns blazing like do you know

856

what is wrong with the fiat system?

857

They're gonna be like, oh

You're gonna try to preach to me

858

Teruko: conspiracy theorist.

859

Tali: Yeah.

860

Yeah.

861

Yeah.

862

Yeah.

863

So yeah I mean I've been thinking

a lot about it because I do see in

864

America too that most women are just

going about their daily lives, either

865

they don't need it or they're so busy

trying to survive they don't have time

866

to stop and think of other alternatives.

867

Teruko: Right, right.

868

That's true too.

869

Yeah, I think the people we want to reach

who need Bitcoin actually don't have time.

870

It's just, they're so busy.

871

So I'm actually starting

a podcast next month.

872

And

873

Tali: Are you?

874

Good for you.

875

Tell me

876

Teruko: I mean, yeah, yeah, I mean,

it's gonna be in Japanese, and then

877

It's gonna be the hidden agenda.

878

Of course, Bitcoin, but I'm

not gonna talk about Bitcoin.

879

the title doesn't include Bitcoin.

880

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

881

So it's about, it's about money.

882

Like people love money,

so it's about money.

883

Tali: Good for you.

884

Yeah.

885

Teruko: Yeah.

886

So this podcast is actually based

on that We use, do you know the my

887

first Bitcoin, the El Salvador yeah.

888

So, , yeah, we eventually gonna

translate that textbook into

889

Japanese, but it's such a big book.

890

It's gonna take time.

891

So, in the meantime, we

gonna start this podcast.

892

It's gonna be just 15 minutes.

893

Once a week, we're going

to update once a week.

894

So it's not overwhelming at all.

895

And we just go through

the textbook bit by bit.

896

It's basically me and then other guys.

897

So the other guy is like a newbie.

898

He just started Bitcoin.

899

So he asks me questions and

then I answer, kind of thing.

900

And then we try not to use the word

901

Bitcoin

902

Tali: we

903

Teruko: Let's see,

904

Tali: all different ways.

905

Yeah.

906

Teruko: Yeah, you don't just

have to hide our intention

907

Tali: Yeah, actually, I was talking to

I know I was talking to Rachel Geyer

908

in Germany and she was saying how if we

were to have a wellness retreat, and we

909

don't say Bitcoin retreat, we just say

wellness retreat, women would flock to

910

it because everybody's about wellness.

911

And then once they arrive, then you say,

well, there's different kinds of wellness.

912

You have your health wellness, you have

your emotional wellness, and oh, by the

913

way, you have your financial wellness.

914

Let's talk about Bitcoin.

915

But of course we want to

cover all the other areas.

916

So in that way you can attract

newbies in and have a way to

917

connect the ideas together.

918

So I go, that's very sneaky,

but I think it might work.

919

You know,

920

Teruko: Yeah, but I think

we have to be sneaky.

921

Tali: we have to be sneaky.

922

I know.

923

I just think that women have a lot of

power to influence through the home,

924

like through the living room, I always

keep going back to the living room.

925

So I just feel like we have a lot of power

and we're just starting to collectively

926

work together because the men have been

working together for over a decade.

927

And so I feel like their network

is really strong, but the women are

928

literally just starting to step forward.

929

So as much as I can, I want to try

to get us together face to face

930

and not necessarily to talk about

what's going on in technology or

931

even politically, but just how do we

communicate to other women in the way

932

that only women can to spread the idea?

933

And when, if you listen to some of

the men talk, they would say, if

934

things get bad, we're just going to

leave, I'm going to pick up my family.

935

We're going to leave.

936

Well, that's great for you,

but what about the rest of us?

937

We can't just pick up and leave.

938

You know, my kids aren't

going to come with us.

939

I have to stay here.

940

We got to fight the battle here and

the only way that I know how is to

941

get women to work the women's network.

942

Do you know, I don't know if you guys

have this in Japan, but there's a

943

organization called mad, M A D D and

it's mothers against drunk driving.

944

It's a coordination started by a mom

of somebody who was killed by a drunk

945

driver and it's a bottom up grassroots

kind of movement against drunk driving.

946

Mops is another one.

947

Mothers of preschoolers.

948

That's a very, very strong

network and and there're

949

mops organizations everywhere.

950

you can't go to a city in the US and

not be able to find several mops groups.

951

So kind of like that.

952

If we can do something through

the home like that for money

953

education, maybe not even Bitcoin

education, but just money education

954

Teruko: money in general,

955

Tali: Yeah, then then we have a chance to

spread the wildfire, you know, that's my

956

Teruko: Yeah.

957

uh, yeah, I think, , in general,

especially in the last few years,

958

uh, Um, you know, like last year,

this year, people are suffering from

959

inflation and then many people are

wondering why you suffer, right?

960

We are working at the same amount

of time and we are getting even we

961

are getting raise, but somehow your

life is much more difficult that

962

you can't even keep up with bills.

963

So people are starting to question why.

964

People just haven't found what's

causing that yeah, so I guess now,

965

the timing wise, it's, it's good.

966

Tali: Thanks for joining us today . If

the discussion with our guests

967

resonated with you and you would

like to dive deeper into the world of

968

Bitcoin, don't miss out on joining the

Orange Hatter Women's Reading Club.

969

The meetup link is in the show notes.

970

Also, if there are women in your life

whom you think would both enjoy and

971

benefit from learning more about Bitcoin,

please share Orange Hatter with them.

972

Until next time, bye!