In this episode of the Future Proof HR podcast, Jim Kanichirayil sits down with Katee Van Horn, Chief People Officer at Web Pros, to explore what it actually looks like to lead a people-first transformation inside a fast-moving, globally distributed organization and what happens when you layer AI on top of it.

With team members across more than 51 countries and a growth strategy built heavily on acquisitions, Web Pros has had to solve some of the hardest problems in modern HR: aligning cultures, integrating teams, building consistent onboarding at scale, and maintaining a shared identity across vastly different ways of working. Katee brings a grounded, operational perspective on how to navigate all of that without losing sight of the people in the middle of it.

Together, they dig into what it really means to shift the narrative around AI from fear to curiosity, why reskilling existing talent almost always beats hiring from outside, and how the SDET and QA role at Web Pros became a real-time case study in workforce evolution. Katee also makes a compelling case for why listening, not just as a practice, but as a discipline that drives action, is the foundation of any successful transformation effort.

This episode is a candid, practical look at what it takes to lead transformation the right way, where people aren't an afterthought to the strategy. They are the strategy.

Topics Discussed:

• Aligning culture and ways of working across acquisitions and global teams
• Building scalable onboarding and just-in-time learning in a remote-first environment
• How AI is reshaping the SDET and QA function in real time
• Reskilling over replacing: why developing existing talent is the smarter long-term play
• Human in the loop vs. human in the lead and when each applies
• Why listening exercises only work when they drive action
• Applying agile thinking to transformation: iterating instead of overhauling
• The five principles for executing a people-first AI transformation

Additional Resources:

• Cleary's AI-powered HR Chatbot
• Future Proof HR Community
• Connect with Katee Van Horn on LinkedIn

anytime AI is brought up, and I think right now this is very true,

2

again, in a lot of organizations,

it brings excitement, but also

3

skepticism because there is this whole.

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Hey, is this gonna replace my job?

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And so it's about having conversations

around, no, it's not replacing

6

your job, but it could change it.

7

And we get to shape what

that change looks like.

8

We get to talk about what

should this look like in.

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Not our current environment,

but our future environment.

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Speaker: What do you think of when you

hear the phrase people first technology

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transformation in the age of ai.

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Other than, it's a big mouthful, you're

probably rolling your eyes at the

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phrase, because we've seen it before

and I'm sure we'll see it again, where

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plenty of people have thrown out those

buzzwords and the reality is vastly

15

different from the theory of that phrase.

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What have we seen when

we're talking about.

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Technology transformations

in the age of ai.

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Usually it involves some CEO who is out

of touch with what's going on in this

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organization laying out an edict saying

that we're gonna be an AI first company,

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and that's often followed by a bunch

of people getting laid off, and then

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whoever's remaining is told that they

better be thankful that they have a job.

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That's what we've seen.

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That's what catches headlines.

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So the question becomes, is it

even possible for you to execute

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this sort of transformation?

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In the age of AI and still be people

first in terms of culture and execution.

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That is the question that we're gonna

answer today, and the person that's gonna

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help us answer it is Katie Van Horn.

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So what's Katie's story?

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Well, Katie is a global HR executive

who specializes in developing strong

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leaders, fostering inclusion and guiding

organizations through complex change.

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And she's the Chief People

Officer at Web Pros and a co-host

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of the Inclusive AF podcast.

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She brings thoughtful people centered

leadership to every conversation

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and our work centers on helping.

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Teams grow, connect,

and lead with intention.

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And the story that we're gonna

talk through today is about

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how she set the foundation for

executing a people first technology

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transformation in the age of ai.

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Jim: Katie, looking forward

to this conversation.

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Welcome to the show.

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Katee: Thanks for having me.

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Jim: Yeah, I, I think it's gonna be a

pretty interesting conversation because

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the overall theme of the conversation is

how you execute a people first technology

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transformation in the age of ai.

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That's a lot of words, and oftentimes

those things don't go well together.

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In fact, they're often in opposition.

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So I think the first order of business

is for you to give us a view into the

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landscape of the organization and what

you're navigating from a day-to-day basis.

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Katee: Absolutely.

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Thank you for having me.

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My name is Katie Van Horn.

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I'm the Chief People Officer for Web Pros.

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And right now we're in a, an interesting

moment at Web Pros, and I think a

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lot of companies can say the same.

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we've had years of acquisitions where

we've built this team of incredibly

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smart, incredibly passionate

team, and they're worldwide.

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We have team members in over 51 countries.

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And this year the focus is really

about becoming that one web pros.

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So making sure we're thinking

about culture systems.

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Ways of working and continuing to move in

a very fast paced high, high opportunity,

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sometimes high chaos environment, and

making sure that we're having that

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meaningful team member experience globally

that's consistent, but also focusing on

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what are the outcomes and what are the

things that we're trying to achieve.

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So regardless of whether you're

in Houston, Barcelona, Mumbai,

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Cologne, Sofia, wherever it is.

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We're working on really big problems and

really big stuff, and that's energizing,

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but it's also, it's a lot of work.

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And then layer on top of that, how is

AI actually helping us or harming us?

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Jim: So I wanna set aside the AI part

of the conversation for a little bit

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later because some of the other things

that you're describing are challenging

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in and of itself because when you talk

about an organization that's global,

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that's distributed, you're talking

about aligning culture, and I think

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there's a portion of the company

growth that involves acquisition.

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All of those things are challenging if

you're just tackling 'em one at a time.

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So tell me about how you have navigated

the process of aligning, given

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those variables, give us a little

bit of detail in terms of what the

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infrastructure looks like that's helped

you do that successfully to this point.

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Katee: I think for us, really,

it's about making sure that we are.

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Always focused on those

partners and customers first.

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So when we have acquisitions,

thinking about what is the product

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impact, what is the customer impact?

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And then from there, also thinking

about what is a team member's impact?

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So making sure that they have

a similar experience to either

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what they've already had.

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Or enhancing it and hopefully enhancing

it when they come into Web Pros.

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So really looking at what is that bigger

picture of what does this addition by

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acquisition mean, and then what does

that mean to the team overall from a

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structure infrastructure perspective.

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It's also about aligning.

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Teams as quickly as we can to their

actual work product that they're doing.

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So if we're bringing in a new

engineering team, aligning it to the

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current engineering team as quickly

as we can in the right way though

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to make sure that everyone is able

to learn more, grow their skillset.

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But also, again, as quickly as we can

bring that product onto our platforms

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or what, however, we're going to set

it up to make sure it's right and it's

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right for the customers and partners.

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Jim: So I like your example that

you're talking about bringing on

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development teams as quickly as

possible and aligning them through the.

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Product.

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The thing that I keep thinking about

is when you're talking about a globally

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distributed team and you're talking

about aligning dev teams across the

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globe, in service of delivery of a

product, that's easier said than done.

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So tell me a little bit more about

how you've set up systems for success

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to allow for faster integration,

faster alignment in a globally

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distributed employee landscape.

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Katee: Absolutely.

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there are so many challenges that

we always are looking at when

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we're bringing in an acquisition.

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And I will pull aside that regional

differences, those language differences,

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those ways of working differences.

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And even just talk about, the engineering

or coding languages that are being used.

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Could be different.

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Could be something that we have to bring

people up to speed or change how we

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have, worked on products in the past.

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And, for me and for my HR team,

it's really about thinking of who

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are those additions to the team.

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And what I'd like to do when we're having

acquisitions is meet with the executives

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to say, what's great about your culture?

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What's great about the way

that you all work together?

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not so great?

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So bringing in the things that will

be additions and will be helpful,

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but then also making sure we don't

bring in stuff that isn't great.

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And an example of that, is there

might be something in the culture

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that the team says, we, are very

cutthroat or we, don't look out for

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each other, whatever it might be.

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Hopefully that won't ever be an

acquisition that we do, but it's possible.

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And so looking at that and going,

how do we keep that out and make sure

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that doesn't come into our culture.

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But then also when we look at those

regional differences and ways of working,

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the example I can give you is, we have

teams that are, that were based in

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Russia, we've relocated them to Bulgaria,

but they have a very much a top down.

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The leader says, this is the

way we're gonna do things,

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and that's the way it's done.

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And so shifting the way that they

worked to say, okay, we're all in.

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We're in this together, we're

all contributing, and how

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are we making sure that those

contributions are actually impactful?

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And again, the right thing

for our product, for our

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customers, and for our partners.

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Jim: So when you describe all of that,

what comes to mind in my head, especially

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from the perspective of alignment to

culture, is that a lot of this stuff has

142

to be picked up, asynchronously and on

your own as far as a learning perspective.

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So how have you set up the

organization to allow for easier?

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I guess onboarding or enculturation,

across these teams that have

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vastly different ways of operating.

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Katee: We have done a

lot of different things.

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So the onboarding process that we've put

in place and it's an iterative process so

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it's not perfect and there's always gonna

be challenges and we're always learning

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new things, but we've set up something

that we can have, just in time training,

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we can have do it at your own pace type

training where people can learn a little

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bit more about Web Pros and all of our

products and all of the things that we do.

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We've also really focused on

culture and how do we create this,

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what we call one web pros culture.

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That is who we are, and it's

really about our identity.

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It's about our values.

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It's about making sure that people

are working in the same way if they're

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not working in the same way, how do

we work in that async environment to

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say, Hey, you might work this way and

this other team's gonna pick it up

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and run with it, in a different way.

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how can we keep in communication

and keep everyone in the loop?

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And really the key there is communication

and making sure that everyone

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knows what's going on at all times.

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So using the tools at our disposal,

JIRA, slack, et cetera, to make sure that

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there's a lot of communication and a lot

of back and forth between product teams,

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marketing teams, engineering teams, et

cetera, to make sure everyone is aware

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of what should I be working on today?

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But then also, what's that bigger

picture we're trying to address?

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Jim: So I like that.

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I think, I think the big things

that stand out in what you just

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described is that you're putting

your processes in your system.

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and accounting for

different modes of learning.

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You're also putting in scaffolding

or guardrails that allow for ongoing

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self-correction so that if you need

to course correct, very quickly,

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you have that in place as well.

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and then the other part that I

like about what you just described

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is that it seems to be a regular.

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Part of the process to have mission

alignment and big picture conversations

178

are always front and center, so you

stay aligned in terms of the direction

179

that you're going, on an ongoing basis.

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So that's really good stuff.

181

So the foundation's there, and

you're already talking about.

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All of these things in the context

of a complex, globally distributed,

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acquisition oriented environment

with aligning multiple cultures.

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Now add the AI layer onto it.

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So when you add that on top of it, what

sort of challenges popped up that you

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didn't anticipate when you're adding

the AI component into that culture?

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Katee: I think time, anytime AI is brought

up, and I think right now this is very

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true, again, in a lot of organizations,

it brings excitement, but also

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skepticism because there is this whole.

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Hey, is this gonna replace my job?

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And so it's about having conversations

around, no, it's not replacing

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your job, but it could change it.

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And we get to shape what

that change looks like.

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We get to talk about what

should this look like in.

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Not our current environment,

but our future environment.

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And also how do we think about

AI as a remover of friction?

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Automating some of those repetitive

tasks and making sure that we're

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really improving based on what

we learn, what the outcomes are.

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so it's not about replacing

people or replacing.

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Anything.

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It's really about how do we extend the

cap, the capabilities of our team and the

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capacity of our teams, and making sure

that we're trying to be very transparent.

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We don't always get it right, but

trying to be transparent about the shift

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from fear to curiosity and making sure

we're really being thoughtful about

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how do we frame up how AI can be used,

and also using guardrails in AI to

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make sure that we're doing the right

things and being thoughtful about.

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If a human is touching

it, what does that mean?

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And if a human isn't touching

it, what does that mean?

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So really being thoughtful about how do we

shift the narrative between, hey, this is

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gonna take my job to what does it mean and

how can it enhance what I do every day?

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Jim: So I like the framing, or at

least the the changing of the mindset

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where you're having people rethink

what their job might be in the future.

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But wanna hit rewind a little

bit and think through this

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from a business perspective.

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Oftentimes when you have organizations

that have international or globally

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distributed teams, there's a certain

calculus in that people strategy where

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you have people located across the

globe to get, gain an advantage on.

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your payroll.

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the numbers are the numbers 'cause it

might be, more cost effective to hire

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staff out of, Eastern Europe or wherever.

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There's that calculation

that comes into it.

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Now you add AI into that equation

and AI is marketed as, oh, this is

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going to wipe out entry-level work or

repetitive work, for a lot of people.

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So when we're thinking about.

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a use case where AI could be used,

I could think of a scenario where

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on a dev team and you add a layer

of ai, the QA function disappears.

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So I'm sure there might be QAs

or SDETs across the organization

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that are sitting there thinking.

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this is all great and all, but with

AI in here, I'm gonna be out of a job

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no matter what the marketing says.

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How do you respond to that sort

of concern that might exist

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out there in the workforce?

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Katee: So I, we are, we're responding

to it in real life right now.

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That's absolutely a real life

example of something that, that

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we're being challenged by right now.

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and the focus and the way we've approached

it is really to shift this SDET QA role.

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Into more of an engineering and

a coder role to make sure that,

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again, it's about developing

people and growing their skillset.

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So it's not, you're not gonna have a

job, it's how does your job change and

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how does it differently in the future

to make sure that you are improving your

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skills and doing what you still love to

do, which is getting into the code and

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figuring out what the code is doing.

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But from a different perspective.

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But it's also about building engineers

to think about quality, to think

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about how do I test what I'm doing?

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How do I make sure I'm thinking about.

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This from a QA perspective

as I'm writing the code.

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So it's a shift in not just the SE

role and the QA it's also a shift

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in the engineering role to say, Hey,

engineer, you're not gonna have four

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people behind you looking at every

a, line of code that you write.

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You're gonna have to really be thinking

about this as you're writing your code

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yourself and testing it and making

sure that you're, doing peer coding

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or doing different ways of thinking

about this from a QA perspective.

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yeah, that's a hundred percent

a real life example of what

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we're going through right now.

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And I think from a, where do we find

the talent and, you can find these

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entry level roles in other countries.

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I would push back on that a

little bit because I think we have

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highly skilled workers in a lot

of the countries that we're in.

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So it's not about, Hey, we're gonna

put the low level work in other places

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because we're finding amazing talent.

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Whether that's engineers, marketing,

whatever it might be, all over the globe.

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It's about really leveraging the

skill sets and making sure that

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those skills are relevant to what

we're trying to achieve, regardless

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of where they sit around the globe.

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Jim: So that makes sense.

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I wanna get into the philosophy a little

bit because if when we're talking through

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how the job of an engineer changes the

job of an SDETS changes, I start thinking

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about competencies of people that end up

in that space, and right now I'm trying

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to fight the urge to nerd out because

as a IT recruiter, this is like the

271

stuff that I would talk about because

QAs from a competencies perspective

272

are supposed to have the wiring that

demonstrates attention to detail, which

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is a core component of being a good QA.

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To be an effective developer,

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you index towards run

fast and break things.

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I'm oversimplifying in, in, in large

terms, but the, where this philosophical

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component comes in is, I'm always wired

to build teams that each individual

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on the team plays to their strengths.

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And what you're describing is, developers

now have to pay more attention to the

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things that probably drain their energy.

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So what I'm thinking about as we talk

through this is you have elements of

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each job's function that's gonna change.

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Some of those changes means that

they're not playing to their strengths,

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but actually working more on their

weaknesses, which could be an

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energy drain for a developer or a QA

depending on who you're looking at.

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So how do you bridge that gap where

it you're actually having to reshape

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to some level how people are wired

in order to meet the demands of what

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this new future of work looks like.

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Katee: So I'm gonna answer

this a couple different ways.

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So I think, when we think about the

future of work, for me, it is about

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an evolution and that's for all of us.

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you as a recruiter, have you changed

the skillset that you had from day

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one of being a technical recruiter?

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Of course, you've evolved, you've learned

new things, you've learned to technology,

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you've kept up to speed on what are the

things that will impact who I recruit,

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how I recruit, all of these things.

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And so I think there is gonna

be that shift, and I would hope.

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That every person wants to develop

their skills and wants to grow.

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Now, when it comes to playing to

your strengths, of course, we want to

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make sure that we're thinking about

that and keeping that in mind and

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looking at the competencies there.

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Yes, there are different competencies

that are required for the different

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roles, but I also think that's

part of the shift that engineers.

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Will want to, and do want to focus

on how do I make my code even better?

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How do I make sure that it is

accurate, that it is all these things.

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And we're also forcing them a little

bit to yes, run fast, but also

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check in on what you're writing.

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'cause we don't want anyone

writing stuff that's not going to

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be able to be used in real life.

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The other piece to it is that, I think to

say that, This is a drain on their energy.

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I think that's also just the shift

that we're trying to achieve is how

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do we make sure that we are supporting

them in learning and growing and

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developing so that it doesn't become

such a drain that they're not able

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to function in that core role.

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So looking at the competencies and

looking at who is the right candidate,

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who are the people that we're trying to

really target when we go out and hire

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to look for that person that is more.

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Evolved, or a person that can

evolve and can grow into that.

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Now, are you going to have those hardcore

engineers that need to go into a room

320

and write code and not think about qa?

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Of course.

322

And that's where you have a blend of

people on the team to make sure that you

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are successful in what you're trying to

achieve and what you're trying to build.

324

From a QA perspective, this is also,

I liken it to the US and the us.

325

we have had so many conversations

over the years of, and this'll go

326

back in time a little bit of, Hey,

you're no longer a coal miner.

327

You need to go learn computers, or you

need to go learn whatever skill set it

328

is, because we no longer have that role

as a thing in the United States anymore.

329

And that's a global viewpoint

as well, that some of these

330

jobs just will become obsolete.

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And so retraining, reskilling, upskilling

people and giving them what they need to

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develop those skills to grow those skills.

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And we've actually seen some great

upskilling of talent from that SE group

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that they have been excited about.

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Let me learn how to actually write code

or to look at code and think about code

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differently than I have as a QA person.

337

There's a couple of layers there too.

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the answer where it's

not just a, you're right.

339

Hey, we're just, Hey, this is

your new thing that you're gonna

340

do and good luck and God bless.

341

No, we're gonna, give them the tools

and make sure that we have, supported

342

them in their growth and their

development, because this role won't

343

be a thing anymore in this future

environment that we're working in.

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Jim: So I was gonna get annoyed with

you because you started talking about,

345

hey, sometimes you need to go find

those people that fit the new profile.

346

And as somebody who's done

their research on, retention

347

and turnover, I was gonna get.

348

annoyed because it's always more expensive

to bring people into the organization

349

than it is to develop your own.

350

But then you've mentioned the

part about, Hey, we are, we're

351

investing in development.

352

So tell us a little bit more about how

development plays a bigger role now in

353

terms of your overall talent strategy,

especially when you're figuring,

354

out how AI impacts talent strategy,

and also where your talent needs to

355

develop to get you to the next stage.

356

Katee: Yeah, it's, again, it's a

multi-layer approach where, we have

357

training, of course our learning

and development team who are helping

358

people just to learn how to write code.

359

We're using things like Udemy and

other tools just to give them the.

360

Core basics of how do you go

out and learn a new coding

361

language or that type of thing.

362

But it's also about doing things like peer

coding and having them work with engineers

363

every day that they have already worked

with these folks and have relationships.

364

So they're able to be more vulnerable, to

say, how do I learn this new skill set?

365

How do I grow my skills in this

area that haven't been something

366

that I've done in the past?

367

And Being able to give them that

opportunity to develop the skill sets,

368

giving them tools such as training,

like truly training modules, et cetera.

369

But then also giving them the

opportunity to say, I don't

370

get this and I need more help.

371

Ask their manager, talk to their manager.

372

And I think it's a lot about, again, that

conversation around development, building

373

out the development plans, having the.

374

Vulnerable conversation of, I don't

get this or this doesn't make sense

375

to me, where they can work with their

manager and get other tools and other

376

resources to help them if there is an

area that they're just not getting.

377

Jim: So tell me a little bit more about

how you've baked in this development

378

mindset across the employee lifecycle.

379

Katee: So we're really

looking at each role, what the

380

competencies are for that role.

381

So we've developed, we started with kind

of a career framework overall of what is

382

the career framework, what does it look

like to be an engineer, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5.

383

Then we have now started to really

focus on those competencies and

384

aligning competencies to the role

to say what are those skill sets?

385

What are those competencies that someone

needs to become a great engineer or

386

a great marketing person, or whatever

it might be, and aligning those

387

competencies to really say what can we

do and also what level of competence

388

do you need at what level of role?

389

being an HR person, you might not

need coding languages or you might

390

not need certain competencies.

391

But obviously you do

if you are an engineer.

392

And so looking at all of that and

looking at that competency framework,

393

then we're able to develop specific

training that's targeted to what those

394

competencies are, giving them tools.

395

And not to say, not to, I am

not a spokesperson for Udemy.

396

but giving them things like Udemy

and other courses to say, how do I do

397

this and how do I learn this skillset?

398

then also talking about

our specific products.

399

We have a platform that we're building

out, and it's a work in progress to

400

really go deep into what is this product?

401

How does it work?

402

How does the partner or customer use it?

403

All of these pieces so that people

can dig in, even if it's not their

404

role to go out and build the thing, be

able to sell it, be able to talk about

405

it, be able to learn more about it.

406

It's a lot of different tools and

support that we're giving them.

407

And the biggest thing though is

that manager alignment, that manager

408

conversation and open discussion

with their team member to say, I

409

get this, or no, I don't get this.

410

And there's also, there

always is the opt out.

411

if this isn't something that someone wants

to do or they're not comfortable, then

412

we look at, okay, what other role might

be available inside the organization?

413

And.

414

sometimes it's, there isn't a role

in the organization, and then we

415

talk about what is a respectful and

professional exit and all that good

416

stuff, and make sure that we're being

thoughtful about keeping that person

417

safe and whole as they exit the company.

418

Thomas Kunjappu: This has been

a fantastic conversation so far.

419

If you haven't already done so,

make sure to join our community.

420

We are building a network of the

most forward-thinking, HR and

421

people, operational professionals

who are defining the future.

422

I will personally be sharing

news and ideas around how we

423

can all thrive in the age of ai.

424

You can find it at go cleary.com/cleary

425

community.

426

Now back to the show.

427

Jim: So when I hear all of the

things that you're saying and

428

compare it to what we've often seen

and heard out there in the media.

429

Oftentimes when an organization is going

hard into the AI space, it's usually some

430

CEO passing down an edict about we're

gonna be AI first, and oh by the way, X

431

number of people are gonna get fired and

that the rest of you better be thankful

432

and proving your worth every single day.

433

All of this talk about development

and investment and training.

434

Runs counter to those narratives

that we've heard, far too often.

435

Where did that come from?

436

Because if I am A CEO who is not

aware or not deep in the ai, I would

437

be sitting there and thinking, oh.

438

This is an efficiency play.

439

We can get rid of a bunch of people and

pat our bottom line and not have to worry

440

about continuing to invest in training,

development and all this other stuff.

441

So your approach sounds completely

different than what we typically

442

see in the headlines out there.

443

What's the root of that?

444

How did that philosophy

come to take shape in this?

445

Katee: So I'm going to first say that

I think yes, CEOs have looked at this

446

as an efficiency play, and we've seen

how that has played out very recently.

447

And, at Google you can see how that

played out and so I think there's

448

that piece that we are keeping

in mind and we have such deep.

449

Knowledge of our products within our

teams, that it's actually to our benefit.

450

much like you mentioned earlier, to train

someone versus hire a new person that

451

doesn't have that product knowledge or

that, Knowledge, historical knowledge of

452

what has happened with the product, how

the product works, all of this good stuff.

453

And we are in the hosting industry

and thinking about how the

454

hosting industry has evolved.

455

And so there's a lot of different pieces,

and I think it's a combination of the two.

456

I don't think it's, oh, we're

gonna train everyone up and they're

457

all gonna be perfect at AI in a.

458

We do, we have also brought in some

amazing experts in the AI space and

459

folks that can bring the rest of the

team up to speed on some of these topics.

460

But we're also doing things like opening

up Slack channels and opening up spaces

461

where people can go out and test new

AI tools, test what's going on, try

462

and learn, how does AI impact my job?

463

And giving them different

ways to think about this.

464

So yes, you could say we

can save money short term.

465

But I think the longer term smarter

play is develop what you have and

466

build on what you already have, because

they have that historical context

467

and that knowledge that you can't

replicate bringing in a new person.

468

Jim: So there's, there's a

component of what you're describing

469

that, that I'm curious about.

470

and we're gonna get into the

Phil philosophical side again.

471

So part of what we hear often when

we're talking about AI is this

472

conversation about human in the

loop versus human in the lead.

473

when you look at what you've done

from a people strategy in service

474

of this transformation, what's the

mindset internally that's driving this?

475

Is it in the loop or in the lead?

476

Katee: It's both.

477

it, it's a, I won't use the, the yes

and but it is a little bit of a yes.

478

And because the human in the loop, it's

really that oversight, making sure we're

479

being inclusive, making sure we have

the context, making sure that, we are.

480

Thinking about all the right things.

481

Human in the lead for me is more

like that strategic direction,

482

that strategic judgment.

483

How do we make decisions?

484

How are we thinking about decisions?

485

So it's really that force multiplier, if

you will, of, humans are still driving

486

and they're still the folks that are.

487

Determining how do we think

about different things.

488

But when you talk about basically

humans in the loop, this is I think,

489

more of those repetitive tasks where

oversight is needed and it's more

490

of the keeping things on the rails.

491

and then human in the lead is more that

strategic focus and making sure that the

492

judgment of why are we doing something?

493

Why are we making certain decisions?

494

the why behind it is really

leading more of the conversation.

495

Jim: so you're in the process of making

this transformation and there's probably

496

a lot of other things that, that you

haven't discovered yet, but at this point

497

in your transformation effort, what are

the things that came up that caught you

498

by surprise that you didn't anticipate?

499

Katee: So I'm gonna say that

caught our leaders by surprise.

500

because I think one of the things

that it's really taught our leaders

501

a lot is that listening first is

such a key component of leadership.

502

So truly understanding.

503

And, I think leaders at a high

level understand those pain points.

504

They understand what the challenges

are for their teams, but listening to

505

their team members to hear a little

bit more about What would help you

506

from a tool or capability perspective?

507

Then I think that the second one is

designing around what is the workflow

508

or what is, what are, how does this

work today and how could it work better?

509

So it's not forcing new workflows, it's

designing around the current workflows

510

and using the tech to accelerate it.

511

Using real people in this conversation.

512

I think it's not a, we're gonna go

off and do AI and then we'll come and

513

deliver it to you and you'll use it.

514

It's testing, it's iterating, it's having

conversations about how does AI impact us.

515

And again, this is also where we're

finding mistakes or issues or concerns.

516

'cause it is, we wanna make sure

that we're testing and saying, is

517

this tool, is this way of working?

518

Is this workflow right?

519

Looking at that.

520

But then I think, the other piece is not

looking at one person to be the hero.

521

Looking at how all of us can

be better and how can we all

522

grow and develop our skillset.

523

and then, I think it's technology

as the enabler, technology,

524

as the tool, not technology.

525

Leading the charge.

526

People still need to be involved.

527

People still need to be in front

and center of the conversation.

528

So those are some of the

learnings that we have had.

529

So myself plus the leader.

530

So it's not been, oh, HR is

going off and doing this thing.

531

all in it together and

we're all focused on it.

532

So it's about, even looking

at tools that have rolled out.

533

In the universe and in the industry

of, oh, this is an AI tool that

534

every developer should be using.

535

Going on and testing it and going,

yeah, this isn't for us, and saying,

536

that's not something we're gonna use.

537

That's not something

that works for our teams.

538

So making sure that the tools solve

the problems we have based on the

539

listing conversations, based on

what we're hearing from our team

540

members, and then making sure that it

actually in real life works for us.

541

Jim: So I like how you mentioned,

listening first as a key pillar in

542

part of your transformation efforts.

543

I think the problem that I have with

that as just a general buzzword is that

544

organizations do all sorts of listening

exercises and then a fall over because

545

they don't really act on what they hear.

546

So tell me a little bit more about what

you heard in those listening conversations

547

that shifted your assumptions and ended

up driving action across what you heard.

548

Katee: I 100% agree with that sentiment.

549

And I always talk about this in,

being a traditional HR person, in a

550

lot of ways, the comment I've always

said to leaders, if we can do any

551

type of engagement survey, we can do

all kinds of conversations and listen

552

to people if we don't act on it.

553

means nothing.

554

and also people are gonna

quit telling us things.

555

and I think that's such a key tenet

to any team and any leadership.

556

And a hundred percent for hr, don't

do an engagement survey unless you're

557

gonna actually take action on it.

558

And I think the same thing

applies here is that, have to.

559

Act on what you hear and the act

can be, thank you for that feedback.

560

We're not gonna go in that direction,

but we definitely, appreciate that

561

you shared that and here's why we're

going in a different direction.

562

I think it's having the conversation

listening and then from there, making

563

informed decisions on how we take action.

564

And those listening sessions come

in a lot of different, it can be

565

one-off conversations as you're.

566

Stopping into an office for a visit.

567

It can be in meetings.

568

You hear something that you're like,

tell me more about why that's not working

569

for you, or where the friction is.

570

So leaders I think are doing a

better job and team members are

571

doing a better job of asking where

are those pain points so that we can

572

discover, okay, here's this friction.

573

How do we solve it?

574

Is it something that we

can get a tool to do?

575

Is it something we need to

change in how we work together?

576

Whatever that might be.

577

so I think there's a.

578

And a piece to this.

579

That's just however you can get

the information from the team

580

members, but that trust and that

continuous feedback loop happens

581

when you actually take action.

582

And so I don't know if I answered

your question, but I think it's

583

a matter of, you can get the

information a lot of different ways.

584

For me, I've always been someone that

likes to go sit with people and have

585

conversations in this environment

where we are in 51 countries.

586

That makes it a lot harder.

587

But however I can get the information

and even when it doesn't feel

588

great, and when I'm, it's, Hey,

hrs not doing a great job of this.

589

I still wanna hear it so I

can fix it or try to fix it.

590

Jim: So what I like about what you

described is taking the listening

591

exercise and using it as an opportunity

to not only act, but also acknowledge

592

what you're hearing from the audience,

because that actually helps, employees

593

feel seen and heard about their concerns.

594

What I'm curious about is when you go

through any transformation initiative,

595

you have some assumptions in your head

about what you want to tackle first.

596

What I'm wondering is.

597

When you take that listening

exercise, at what point should you

598

shift those priorities based on what

you're hearing from the audience?

599

Is there a threshold that needs to

be met to reprioritize some of the

600

sequencing or theory that you had

going forward in the transformation?

601

And if so, what should that threshold be?

602

Katee: So I, I'm very much a proponent

of testing and iterating on any process.

603

And I don't think it's a, oh, here's

the threshold and then that was

604

the thing, or this is the thing.

605

I think it's more a matter of taking

in what you're hearing and pivoting,

606

even if it's just a small pivot.

607

if you're talking about, Hey,

we're gonna throw out everything

608

and start from scratch again.

609

That's a different conversation, but

I think if it's just, Hey, we need

610

to iterate, or Hey, let's shift this

slightly, or Hey, maybe this, I'm gonna

611

use the competency concept, Hey, maybe

this competency isn't something we

612

need for someone that's a new engineer,

or that's coming into engineering.

613

so I think it's a constant

iteration and priorities.

614

I'm not silly.

615

I'm, I know that priorities are

constantly shifting in organizations.

616

I think it's listening to, again, what

are our customers and partners saying

617

that they need and driving from there.

618

That's the first piece.

619

But I don't think there's a,

oh, here is the point when we

620

have to, throw everything out.

621

It's more a matter of let's continue

to iterate and make adjustments.

622

And it's almost, when you're in a.

623

a scrum, development environment that

you're looking at, okay, we did this

624

sprint, here's our retrospective on

that sprint, and here's what we're gonna

625

change for next time, or what we might

add to the next sprint to make it better.

626

So it's looking at that kind of, i,

I hate using the idea of like agile

627

development, but being agile and how are

we working and how are we making sure

628

that we're doing what we need to do.

629

So it's a maybe, slight pivots or shifts.

630

But I don't know that it's a,

we're gonna throw everything

631

out and start from scratch.

632

It's really just priority shift

depending on, what might be going

633

on in the world, in the external

environment, all of these things.

634

Jim: So I think, I'm actually glad

that you brought in the concepts

635

of agile development and those.

636

Principles and the concept of a sprint

because it triggered something in my head.

637

When you're looking at any sort of

transformation, you don't have to

638

go into it thinking that you have

to eat the elephant all at once.

639

You have the opportunity to break

everything down into bite-sized pieces

640

and see what works, test it, and

iterate from there, which I think.

641

We all know that intuitively from,

a change management or a project

642

management perspective, but oftentimes

we look at the big picture and we think,

643

holy cow, that's a really a big rock.

644

How do we actually move it?

645

And the key is to break it

down into smaller pieces.

646

So I think that the fact that you brought

in the development principle, especially

647

agile development principles, that

helps put the right context in there.

648

I want you to zoom out and I want

you to think through this process of

649

transformation that you've been on.

650

And we've put it under the umbrella of how

you execute a people first transformation,

651

and you're still in the process of that.

652

So when you think through what

you've done so far, what are the key

653

things that you've picked up that's

helped you move closer to success and

654

execution that you didn't realize,

on the front end of this initiative?

655

Katee: Oh God.

656

There's been a ton of things.

657

So I think one of the pieces, and

this is the future proofing, Future

658

proofing our entire industry.

659

And what we're looking at is when

we think about the skills that

660

are needed for now and for the

future, they might not be the same.

661

And making sure that when you're

looking at historical roles, you're

662

not just saying, oh yeah, those are

the competencies and we're done.

663

You're really going, what

do we need for the future?

664

I think doing a skills gap analysis of

who do we have on the team now and who

665

are we going to need in the future?

666

back to that whole idea of who

can we train and upskill, and then

667

what do we need to go out and buy

or, bring into our talent pool.

668

and also thinking about that in terms

of being thoughtful about not waiting

669

for the crisis point, but moving on

this sooner rather than later so that

670

we are prepared and ready to make this

shift and make this transformation.

671

I think.

672

Scalable learning is a big one because,

the traditional concept of going to

673

a classroom for a week, learning,

whatever skill that doesn't work in a

674

remote first environment, and it doesn't

work in today's environment either.

675

You can't have people.

676

Off their role for two

weeks to go do a training.

677

So really thinking about scalable

learning and just in time

678

learning, making sure that we're

our leaders to be able to advise.

679

Make sure they really can

help and support the team.

680

then also I think, making sure that when

we think about internal mobility and we

681

think about developing our team members,

we're really thinking about what are

682

the right pathways and where can they

go next and how do we develop them?

683

And then I think most importantly,

on my end, looking at the data,

684

what is working, what you know,

what feedback are we hearing?

685

are those engagement survey results?

686

What are the performance trends?

687

All of these things that, we need

to do as HR leaders and just making

688

sure that we're really in the data

and analyzing the data in such a way

689

that it gives us informed information

to take back to the business to say,

690

here's what we need to do now and next.

691

Jim: Great stuff, Katie.

692

I'm sure there is a ton more that we can

get into, and I'm sure there's gonna be

693

a lot of people that are interested in

continuing the conversation with you.

694

What's the easiest way for

them to get in touch with you

695

to continue the conversation?

696

Katee: Thank you for asking.

697

So I'm on LinkedIn, Katie Van Horn.

698

Katie is spelled with two E, so K-A-T-E-E.

699

LinkedIn is my probably preferred

method for you to get ahold of me.

700

I'm also the co-host of the Inclusive

AF podcast with Jackie Clayton.

701

you can find us on all podcast

platforms, so you can check us out there.

702

so those are probably the

easiest ways to get ahold of me.

703

Jim: Awesome stuff.

704

So I appreciate you hanging out with

us and, sharing your journey and your

705

thoughts specifically related to the

transformation that you're going through.

706

When I think about this conversation,

this entire conversation is nested

707

under the umbrella of how do you

execute a people first technology

708

transformation in the age of ai.

709

And when you hear that phrase or

hear that question, a lot of people

710

might just think, those are two

different things, it's not possible.

711

And you've demonstrated that it's an and

statement, not an OR statement, which

712

has come up throughout this discussion,

but if I'm looking at the key principles

713

of what's necessary to pull this off

successfully, there are five things that

714

I think are worth noting if you're trying

to do this yourself in your organizations.

715

I think the first thing and most

important thing is to listen first.

716

You might have your own theory

about how this is supposed to

717

be pulled off, but that theory.

718

Is divorced from the

impact at the front line.

719

So it's important to go through

that listening exercise so you

720

gather the necessary information

to make an informed decision.

721

The second aspect that I think

is important, and this holds true

722

for any transformation initiative,

is to test your assumptions.

723

You have a theory.

724

You've heard from the crowd, you've

heard from frontline employees.

725

Be prepared to test the assumptions

that your theory is built on, because

726

if you aren't willing to do that, don't

even bother with the listening exercise.

727

The third element that I think

is important is to pressure

728

test what's really important.

729

You might have an idea and

people might have an idea of

730

what we need, what we don't need.

731

Understand that hasn't met the market yet.

732

So test it out and iterate based on

the data that you get and from the

733

exercise of actually executing the

things that you want to execute.

734

The fourth thing, and especially when

we're getting into the area of how you do

735

this from a people first perspective, you

need to demonstrate your commitment to

736

the people on the team, and that starts

from leadership and works its way down.

737

So that shapes the conversations

that you have at each level, and it

738

gets down to the one-on-ones that

you have at the employee level.

739

If you're not demonstrating commitment

to their success and their development.

740

The transformation is gonna take a

completely different tone than the

741

intent that you want, want it to take.

742

And then the last piece of it is

that you demonstrate your commitment

743

by investing in development and training

because you're never going to solve this

744

by hiring from outside the organization.

745

You could theoretically do it, but

it's gonna cost you an arm and a leg.

746

So if you want to do this

in a people first way.

747

You have to invest in developing

your people and helping them shore

748

up the gaps that they have as they

transition into this new world of work.

749

So there's a lot more than that just

came out in this conversation, but those

750

are the things that stood out to me.

751

So I appreciate you sharing that with us.

752

For those of you who've been

listening to this conversation,

753

we appreciate you hanging out.

754

If you like the discussion, make sure

you leave us a review on your favorite

755

podcast player, and then make sure

you tune in next time where we'll have

756

another HR leader hanging out with

us and sharing with us what they are

757

doing to future proof their landscape.